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CNN Crossfire

How Do FBI Changes Affect Civil Rights?

Aired May 31, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE, on the left James Carville and Paul Begala, on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson in the "Crossfire" tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: He's grabbed the agency. He has begun to shift the culture.

ANNOUNCER: Bob, Bob, he's on our man or is he? In the "Crossfire" rumblings that the FBI director should resign.

Plus, here's looking at you.

REP. JAMES SENSEBRENNER, (R), JUDICIARY CMTE CHAIR: Justice Department has gone too far in changing the domestic spying regulations.

ANNOUNCER: Can the new FBI target terrorism without shooting holes in the constitution?

And it may be his favorite game. Everybody seems to love it. Well almost everybody, why doesn't the U.S. get a kick out of soccer?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight efforts to prevent an all out war that could go nuclear. We'll be joined by Pakistan's ambassador to the United States. Also a subject the rest of the world is positively going crazy about right now and you probably haven't even noticed.

But first, should FBI Director Robert Mueller resign? He took over the bureau the week before September 11th. In the wake of the attacks Mueller has been overseeing both the crackdown on terrorism and the restructuring of his agency. He admits the FBI should have done a better job of putting together the warning signals last summer. But the criticism just won't stop. Today's "Wall Street Journal" call on Mueller to complete his mea culpa with an honorable resignation. Is it time for Mueller to go?

First in the "Crossfire" is former FBI Deputy Assistant Director Skip Brandon - Paul.

PAUL BEGALA, HOST: Brandon, welcome to CROSSFIRE.

SKIP BRANDON, FORMER FBI DEPUTY ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Thank you.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE)

BEGALA: I want to read you a comment from what I think one of the more thoughtful members of the Senate 8th conservative Republican (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Charles Grassley. He's a senator from Ohio, from Iowa - from Iowa, and he had this to say about the reorganization effort at the FBI. Let's put it up on the screen for you.

Reorganizing the bureau won't make much difference if the FBI doesn't hold accountable those responsible for the mistakes. This doesn't need to be a witch-hunt, but the problems have to be fixed. They're simply exercise - this is simply exercising CYA, not accountability, right?

BRANDON: No I don't think it is at all. I think, in fact, this is what the FBI is saying now. We are going to be accountable. That's what I'm hearing.

BEGALA: Who are they holding accountable? They're just moving out of a 27,800-person agency. They're moving 800 people around and firing no one that I can see despite the manifest of mistakes that were made, and they want us all to sort of be compliant and happy here.

BRANDON: Well at this point, we don't know all the facts, the allegations that have come up recently from Agent Rowley, for example, come up. We don't know all the facts. The FBI probably doesn't really know all the facts as to accountability. You don't have to fire somebody to hold an agency accountable.

NOVAK: Here's the - here's the problems Brandon. The - for eight months, Mr. Mueller and the attorney general were in denial. They said we couldn't have figured out how we could have prevented this catastrophe. I wrote a column a week afterward saying how they could have figured it out and so, the "Wall Street Journal" agrees with me. Look, let's take a look on the screen at what the - what the creator of the talk of the town this morning, saying it's no surprise that President Bush and Attorney General Ashcroft is standing by their man.

Mr. Ashcroft this week praised him as a battle-toasted leader, the right man for the job. The director could relieve their embarrassment by completing this week's mea culpa with an honorable resignation. That's - do you think that's pretty good advice?

BRANDON: No I don't think so at all. In fact, I don't think it would serve us, serve any of us very well at all. This is the director who's come into the bureau with a challenge. We knew that quite frankly the day he came on board, before September 11th. He hasn't had time to even really address all the issues. It's a large agency and there's a lot to do.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I agree with that. I don't think the agency's done a very good job, but it's hard to scapegoat. It's wrong, I should say, to scapegoat Mueller and it's interesting that the "Wall Street Journal", the most right-wing editorial page in America, didn't mention their pet for the last eight years Louis Freeh. The man, my boss, Bill Clinton, appointed, he should hold his - share a little responsibility for appointing Louis Freeh to run the FBI. But under Louis Freeh, who had eight years, not just eight months, we had the appointment of Larry Potts (ph) responsible for Ruby Ridge (ph). He's the number two man in the bureau.

We had the Wen Ho Lee. We had the Hanssen spy debacle. We had the Richard Jewel debacle, the Eric Rudolph, the bomber, alleged bomber that we never caught. We had the Tim McVeigh debacle. I mean Louis Freeh was an abject disaster, wasn't he?

BRANDON: It was a hard time.

BEGALA: No ...

(CROSSTALK)

BRANDON: There were a lot of successes during this period also and we don't - we don't think about those. I'm not trying to cover it over. There were a lot of problems. I think the issue is now is where does the FBI go now. How do we fix it?

NOVAK: Let me - let me tell you what the problem is for a lot of people. I've talked to some authorities on local placing and the local police chiefs say there hasn't been any sharing of - contrary to the report - there hasn't been any sharing of information in this eight months. The FBI still won't cooperate with them. That's a problem, isn't it?

BRANDON: It's a big problem. I will tell you - I hate to say this, but I saw that actually today. I saw an example of that and this has to be fixed. We're in a time of crisis and information has to move up, down and around.

(CROSSTALK)

BRANDON: Absolutely.

NOVAK: Let me tell you another problem and that's a question of whistleblowers. FBI have been hard on people who say things aren't going right. A new whistleblower came out this week, Robert Wright (ph), special agent in Chicago, went public and the night before he went - he went public yesterday - the night before he went public - that would have been Wednesday night, his attorney got a letter from John Collingwood, the FBI assistant director and we'll put up what Mr. Collingwood said. '

He said we feel obligated to inform you breach of an employee's employment obligations may be grounds for disciplinary action, a civil suit or both in some instances, unauthorized disclosure may also constitute cause for revocation of a security clearance or be a criminal offense.

You know I called - Mr. Brandon, I call that a threatening letter to a whistleblower.

BRANDON: Well I think most of us wouldn't be real comfortable if we got that letter. I believe and I don't know all the facts on this. I really don't, but I believe that what happened and in fact, a complaint was filed in court before any letters were sent in, anything else happened. I think that's what they're addressing in this instance.

BEGALA: Mr. Brandon, keep your seat for just a minute. We're going to have more on this in a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a quick break right now, but the FBI is under attack from another direction as well. We will bring on one of the leaders in the ACLU and to broaden our discussion, maybe generate a little heat, possibly even some light. Then the questions we'll ask him is this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) new powers for the FBI? Are they useful tools to save lives or scary spying on innocent Americans?

And in our CROSSFIRE news alert, promises that Senator John Kerry is actually going to get punchy and our quote of the day comes from a college dropout who said he had more than artificial intelligence. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. This week Attorney General John Ashcroft announced that the Justice Department will ease restrictions on domestic surveillance by the FBI. But should an agency that many observers believe is fundamentally flawed, really be trusted with more power?

Joining us now in the "Crossfire" is Laura Murphy. She's the director of the Washington National Office of the American Civil Liberties Union and still with us is former FBI Director Assistant Director Skip Brandon.

Laura, let me just play devil's advocate. I admire and agree with much of what the agency does, but what's wrong with allowing FBI agents to follow suspects into a mosque or to cruise the Net or to increase surveillance of political organizations.

LAURA MURPHY, DIRECTOR ACLU, WASHINGTON NATIONAL OFFICE: Well the FBI has a lot of that power right now. The only thing that the American people ask for is that they follow a lead. These new guidelines will allow them to go into these places and without any purpose, aimlessly to troll for information ...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Right? MURPHY: Well you know you have to have a starting point. It's true you could put everybody under surveillance and you might catch somebody, but that's not the way terrorist incidents in this country have been stopped before. Under the previous directors of the FBI, they were able to stop over 120 terrorist incidents. Remember the bombing that was planned for the New York tunnels and bridges. That was stopped by solid law enforcement tactics and what's happening here is that we are rewarding failure. Everytime the administration gets into trouble, they ask for more power. First it was the USA Patriot Act, then it was military tribunals, then it was violation of attorney-client privilege and now we have these rags (ph). It's just outrageous.

NOVAK: Mr. Brandon, I would like to bring a witness to testify against these new guidelines and it's not Laura, a member of the ACLU. It's Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, one of the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, one of the most conservative and I think one of the smartest members of the House of Representatives. We, on the "NOVAK, HUNT, & SHIELDS" show, we taped an interview with him today. It's going to play at 5:30 p.m. Eastern tomorrow on CNN, pun pun. But I want - I want you to hear what he said about why we should keep the 1976 guidelines. Let's listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, (R), JUDICIARY CMTE CHAIR: I have directed my staff to bring the attorney general and the FBI director before the House Judiciary Committee in a public hearing as soon as possible to justify why the 1976 regulations of domestic spying that have worked so well for the last 25 or 26 years have to be changed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: How do - how do you respond to that challenge? Why should they be changed?

BRANDON: The times have changed and I will go back a bit and say that I think that with the FBI's operating very effectively under the 1976 guidelines. They really have, and it's worked well.

NOVAK: So why can't they ...

BRANDON: But the times - and the times have changed a bit and the FBI's mandate now, the FBI's challenge has changed. They are being told you have to get ahead of the curve and you have to get out front. They're not going to go to a church or a mosque without an idea of why they're going. They're not going to cruise the Internet and hopefully just looking for ...

MURPHY: Well if that's the case, you don't need the new guidelines because all they need is a lead to go into these places ...

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: ... right now before these guidelines were changed. NOVAK: I'm going to call on Chairman Sensenbrenner for one more piece of testimony. We asked him why not let the FBI directors go into a mosque, into a church, and this is what he replied.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENSENBRENNER: Merely having the FBI go in and investigate political expression, which might not be approved by a majority of the people, but which is protected by the First Amendment comes awful close to the edge and we want to make sure that the FBI, it hasn't had a good track record lately, doesn't go on the other side of the line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Doesn't that make a lot of sense? This is - don't forget this is a conservative Republican talking.

BRANDON: That makes a lot of sense, if the FBI is going in and investigating political expression. There's no question about that, but that's not why they're going to go. They're going to go in there and look for people who are talking about acts of violence and acts that will harm other Americans. That's why they're going to go. If they're in there looking for political expression, we're on the same page.

BEGALA: Ms. Murphy, let me show you another piece of videotape from our attorney general who the "New York Times" has reported before September 11th did not list terrorism as even one of the top 12 priorities of the Justice Department, now is seeking broad new powers for the FBI. Now here's the defense that he makes. I want you to take a look at it and then give your response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: These are well within all of the guidelines and safeguards of the constitution. It's completely respected. The safeguards of the statute are completely respected. The rights of the citizens are. This is designed to help us prevent terrorism, to give FBI agents the kind of access to the culture that's always been enjoyed by local police, country sheriffs and the kind of access to the Internet that every 12 or 14-year old who surfs the Net already has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: What's wrong with that?

MURPHY: Well the fact of the matter is that December 1, 2001 the "New York Times" reported that the attorney general wanted to change these guidelines anyway to do the very same thing he's asking for right now. So these guidelines were introduced as a way of solving the problems outlined in the Phoenix memo and the Minnesota memo. These guidelines ...

BEGALA: Would they - would they solve those problems? MURPHY: Absolutely not. What happened there was a failure to analyze relevant information and a failure to communicate between field offices and headquarters.

NOVAK: Let me just say something of history, Ms. Murphy, and that is that the FBI successfully infiltrated the communist party. They got a lot of information, a lot of convictions and something that I covered very closely, they infiltrated the Klu Klux Klan in the south and had a lot to do with bringing them down. So this was before the guidelines. You'd have to - to be fair you'd have to say the FBI was effective in those endeavors, were they not?

MURPHY: Well I don't know that it was an effective use of our resources to destroy a political party that was unpopular. I do think it was effected ...

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: I don't think ...

NOVAK: Unpopular?

MURPHY: Well they weren't doing anything illegal. They were just moving.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: They were spies, espionage agents.

MURPHY: Well they weren't doing anything illegal in this country, but let me go ...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ... witness by Whittaker Chambers.

MURPHY: Yes but did you ever - did you ever see the L.A. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and all of the people who lost their jobs because the FBI accused them of being communist sympathizers including the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King and they had ...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ... lost his job.

MURPHY: Well he died and he was assassinated, but ...

NOVAK: Not by the FBI.

MURPHY: No I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that the FBI needs to go after terrorism and they had enough resources to infiltrate organizations before these guidelines were changed.

BEGALA: Ms. Murphy, what about the argument that this is life versus liberty, that maybe we do have to give up some of our liberty to save lives? MURPHY: Well I don't think that that means that we have to give up a majority of our liberty. I don't think that means that we have to give up the ability to dissent, that it's protected by the First Amendment. I don't think we - that means that we can go to church or mosque and know that an FBI agent is watching us. I think that will (UNINTELLIGIBLE) dissent.

NOVAK: We're out of time. Laura Murphy, thank you very much. Skip Brandon, thank you.

Next in our CROSSFIRE news alert, a president or wannabe gets ready to throw the book at us. Also the worldwide version of March madness. Why aren't Americans mad about it? Are we the only sane people left on the planet and later, jaws could drop when we reveal our quote of the day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back. Now it's time for a look at those unusual and interesting stories that you might not find anywhere but in our CROSSFIRE news alert.

Two things you can say about the current 107th session of Congress. First it hasn't worked very hard. Second, it is really dull. So why in the world is Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle announcing that he's going to publish a book about everything that has happened in the good old 107th Congress. It's not for money. The senator says he'll give the proceeds, if any, to charity. Tom Daschle is hoping that this book will promote his campaign for president in 2004. Does he really think people want to read about his imaginations in blocking President Bush's bills?

BEGALA: Oh I tell you what I'm going to put it on the bestseller list. Write that book Tom. I'll buy it. The Wall Street ...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... I'll buy all of them. The "Wall Street Journal" reports that when he was the CEO of the oil field services Jack Halliburton, Dick Cheney was so impressed with the integrity and accuracy of the fine folks at Arthur Andersen that he appeared in a promotional video for the now disgraced and indicted audit and accounting firm. In the video Cheney says of Andersen and I quote, "I get good advice, if you will, from their people based upon how we're doing business and how we're operating". Over and above just sort of the normal by the books auditing management.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ...bashing...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Let me tell you what the Securities Exchange Commission is up to. The SEC is actually investigating just how far from the normal by the books Halliburton and Andersen strayed in their accounting under Cheney. At issue whether Halliburton used fuzzy math in claiming $100 million in revenue, a big deal when reports of the firm's income for 1999 was just over 400 million. Cheney apparently claims ignorance of the whole deal. After all he was only the CEO pulling down $36 million. Of course we're still waiting for Mr. Novak and his fellow Republicans who supported an eight-year investigation of the 20-year old penny ante land deal to call for an independent council in Cheney Gate (ph).

NOVAK: I'm sorry - I'm sorry to interrupt that harangue, but ...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: News, that's the news.

NOVAK: As a matter of fact, you do have a quota. You go and attack Cheney every program. I know your game.

BEGALA: Until he vacates Al Gore's house.

NOVAK: You lucky -- you lucky people attending the Massachusetts Democratic State Convention in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tonight will hear Senator John Kerry accept renomination of the Senate with what is billed in advance, get this, as a punchy address, but the centerpiece of his appearance is a 10-minute video dramatizing Senator Kerry's wonderful life. That will kick off his bid for the 2004 presidential nomination. One Kerry source is quoted in the "Boston Herald" as saying this will be a speech talking about traditional Democratic values. I guess in the tradition of George McGovern, Fritz Mondale, Mike Dukakis, all big Democratic losers, I would think John Kerry is smart enough to opt for non-traditional Democratic values like Bill Clinton's.

BEGALA: Bill Clinton who actually carried two presidential elections and John Kerry ...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Steven Spielberg dropped out of Cal State Long Beach 33 years ago because he wanted to make movies. Well three Oscars, billions of dollars and five honorary PhDs later, Spielberg has finally earned a real BA . Like many working adults, he took independent studies classes and today Spielberg received a Bachelor of Arts degree with an option in film and video production.

In a written statement, Spielberg says part of the reason he did it is so young people everywhere will see the importance of achieving their college education goals and in our quote of the day, he adds "I hope they get there quicker than I did". God bless Steven Spielberg.

NOVAK: I have a question for you. Now that - now that - now that Mr. Spielberg finally, finally has an education, do you think he won't be so left wing in his politics?

BEGALA: You know what? He loves his country. He made "Saving Private Ryan" and a bunch of other terrific movies. I am so proud that he is a fellow liberal Democrat. But coming up next, though, if you have travel plans for the summer, the airlines certainly hope so and guess what, just in time for takeoff, they're going to spring a surprise on you. This story is coming up in a CNN news alert.

Also, efforts to prevent a war that could make millions dead. We'll be joined by Pakistan's ambassador to the United States.

And name one event that would cause churches in Britain to reschedule Sunday services or even bring in televisions. Here's a hint. It isn't the second coming. That's still ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)

NOVAK: ...asked Americans how many World Cup matches will you watch. Let's put the results up on the screen.

You can take a look at it.

As many as possible -- 5 percent.

None at all -- 72 percent.

Now I have to say that Paul and I are in that category, and the reason is it's boring.

APRIL HEINRICHS, HEAD COACH, WOMEN'S NATL. SOCCER TEAM: It is?

NOVAK: Yes, don't you think so?

No, I'm fascinated by soccer. I think it's one of the most creative, flowing, artistic sports on the docket.

NOVAK: Then why do I have trouble keeping awake when I'm watching?

BEGALA: I will say this. When your women, even an anti-soccer guy like me tuned in.

NOVAK: Only when she took her shirt off.

BEGALA: Not just -- they were very good-looking women, but also they were terrific athletes and it was an exciting game, but I got to tell you, these men, they're just -- they're boring. Kids play, and I go and watch my kids play, and I can stay awake because they're my kids, but when I go and watch these -- particularly, frankly, the men -- why is it such a boring game?

HEINRICHS: Well, going back to your experience with the women's national team, in '99 when our team won the World Cup, 40 million Americans tuned in, for a 13 rating on television. There's a lot of people out there paying attention to soccer.

If you back to the '94 World Cup, when we hosted it, 3.5 million tickets were sold. There are people paying attention, such as yourself, you want to take your daughter, maybe, to a women's professional game. There's a team here in Washington called the Washington Freedom.

NOVAK: I'll tell you what the problem is. My son, who is now in his 30s, he played soccer as a kid. He was on his junior high team, his high school team, he was captain of the junior varsity in high school. He never watches soccer! He watches -- he's a fanatic basketball fan, he watches baseball football, but it's a boring game for Americans to watch. It's too slow for Americans.

HEINRICHS: It takes an appreciation for it. It's a little bit like some of the higher end arts.

(LAUGHTER)

It is. You have to appreciate it. You have to learn to appreciate it.

NOVAK: Why is it, coach, that kids like my son, they always said that 30 years from now when it started, these guys will be going to a soccer game -- you still have lousy attendance for soccer, and you know, we go out to the local team here in Washington. Mostly immigrants! None of the native born people go to that game.

HEINRICHS: Well, again, looking back at our sport, our sport appeals to all sizes, all shapes, all ethnic backgrounds. The sport itself -- you don't have to be 6 foot 2 to achieve high-level success in soccer, and I think if you look at soccer and the way that it's played, whether it's in the men's game or the women's game, it's fascinating. We're moving a ball up and down...

NOVAK: I've got a suggestion that would make the game a lot more interesting.

Get rid of the goalie.

BEGALA: I though he was going to say arm them. Bob's answer to most things is just, "Pack heat."

But I'm not for it.

During the break we brought out a few other balls here, and I took this football, tossed it out in the audience, and they -- there. We can use our hands in America! We invented football. We invented baseball. Liberate your whole body, right? Let them use their hands in soccer.

HEINRICHS: You know, piece of cake to -- kick it out there.

BEGALA: Go! Go! Yeah!

(APPLAUSE)

But is it because we invented those sports, maybe, that we're more in to them? HEINRICHS: You know, I had back surgery two years ago and I can now pick up things with my toes, and so there's a talent that you achieve through all of this.

NOVAK: Isn't this, though, a sport that appeals more to uneducated third world people who are maybe having trouble with disease? I mean, it's not for the successful people in the world, is it?

HEINRICHS: It's mainstream America. It's the people that are watching CROSSFIRE that are paying attention to soccer right now.

NOVAK: OK. Thank you very much (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We sure appreciate it.

HEINRICHS: Thanks for having me.

NOVAK: Coming up, your chance to sound off. A viewer has sent Paul Begala some badly needed advice about Clarence Thomas and the 2000 presidential election?

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Our e-mail bag, as always, is bulging, so keep the e-mails coming. Let's open it up right now for "Fireback."

E-mail number one from David Ruder in New Lennox, Illinois.

"It's about time the FBI gets more authority to find terrorists. If we have to investigate 10,000 potential terrorists to find one real one, it would be worth it to save just one American life."

So says David Ruder, a fan of John Ashcroft.

No, I think we ought to protect innocent people, not go spying on all Americans.

NOVAK: OK, the next one is from Bruce Tobin of Sault St. Marie, Michigan. He tells me, says, "Why don't you just admit that your boy just can't chew gum and sign a nuclear reduction treaty at the same time?"

Now, I don't know who my boy is -- I always thought you were my boy...

BEGALA: Thank you, Bob.

NOVAK: And I know you can't chew gum and throw a football at the same time.

BEGALA: Well, I appreciate the pass, Bob, but we're just good friends.

"Mr. Novak," writes Kathleen Warren, "I heard you state what a liar President Clinton was. Please, could you give me a list of politicians that don't lie. If you could do that, you'll be a genius." NOVAK: Ronald Reagan never lied.

BEGALA: Ronald Reagan -- he said we didn't trade arms for hostages.

NOVAK: He didn't remember.

(LAUGHTER)

OK, Paul you really need to -- I don't really understand this. This is Alphonse Muhlenberg of Richmond, Virginia. He says, "Paul, you really need to let the 2000 presidential election go. So what if Clarence Thomas cast the deciding vote to install Bush in the presidency in violation of the Twelfth Amendment and U.S. Code Title 3, Chapter 1, Section F? You won't worry so much about the Constitution once Bush and Ashcroft dismantle that annoying document. So, relax, Paul, and enjoy our slide into authoritarianism."

Is that the liberal mind at work?

BEGALA: Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Yes, ma'am.

LIZ: Hi. My name's Liz. I'm from Galloway, New York. And you say no one pays attention to soccer in the U.S. What do you say to all the kids out there who are soccer crazy?

BEGALA: Take up baseball, football.

NOVAK: They play soccer because their parents make them, but they don't watch it when they grow up.

BEGALA: Well, good for you. No, soccer's great if you like it, but come on, football. Show me your hands here, guys. There we go -- yes! Woman! Oh, sorry, I said guys. Good catch, there.

OK, here we go. All right. Yes, ma'am.

EMILY: Hi, I'm Emily, and how can you denounce soccer as a sport that raises so much self-esteem among young people, especially among young girls growing up in America?

NOVAK: Well, I tell you what. I've know young girls all my life, and they've always had too much self-esteem for me.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: I tell you. No, you know what? Brandi Chastain had so much self-esteem she pulled her shirt off on global television. I was like, yeah, I'm for that.

NOVAK: Next question.

BEGALA: Yes, sir.

NATHAN: I'm Nathan McGraff (ph) from Reston, Virginia, and I was wondering if soccer is such an important sport and it's really important to the world, and you say football is a great sport. Do you know where football came from?

BEGALA: Football, it's an improvement on soccer.

NATHAN: You don't improve on the best. How can you compare soccer, in saying it's a sport of Osama bin Laden...

BEGALA: That was a cheap shot, you're right.

NATHAN: That's bigoted.

NOVAK: Who said that?

BEGALA: The introduction to the show, as this young man points out, showed bin Laden and said, "Is this is favorite sport?" That was a cheap shot. You make a good point.

NOVAK: That is, but that's the last time we'll ever have a cheap shot on this program.

All right. I'll tell you what. How many -- you going to go home and watch the World Cup and make amends for these soccer fans.

BEGALA: No. We got two big NBA playoff games and a whole bunch of major league baseball games. I'll be watching those tonight.

NOVAK: You better believe it.

BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good-night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again tomorrow night -- not tomorrow night -- Monday night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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