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CNN Crossfire
Budget Deficit Stirs Partisan Feelings; Are Wildfires Fueled by Liberal Policy?; "Crossfire" Celebrates 20 Years on Air
Aired June 25, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the "Crossfire" tonight, Washington's going bust.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will not let the federal government default on its debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Who turned the surplus into a sea of red ink?
The West is fired up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at those flames.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Have the widefires been fueled by dumb environmental policy?
Some things have changed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CARVILLE, HOST: This president just doesn't travel very well. He's not very good on his feet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Some things haven't.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT NOVAK, HOST: I say that when they are undermining the negotiating position of the United States ...
(END VIDEO CLIP) ANNOUNCER: We are looking back at 20 years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: You know who decides it? The abortionist!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
NOVAK: The abortionists decides ...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Ahead on CROSSFIRE. From the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
NOVAK: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. We're celebrating this program's 20th anniversary, but that isn't any reason to avoid an argument. Tonight, have the huggers made the Western wildfire worse? But our first topic has been a CROSSFIRE regular for most of our 20 years, all through the Reagan administration, the first Bush administration and much of the Clinton administration, Washington spent more money than it took in, and it's happening again.
If Congress doesn't act this week, Washington's checks could start bouncing. In the "Crossfire" tonight, New York Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel and California Republican Congressman David Dreier.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in January of 2001 were projected to have a surplus of $5.6 trillion. Now we're busted. What happened?
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Well first let me say happy anniversary, James ...
CARVILLE: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I've got -- Bob's been here the whole 20, I believe, eh?
DREIER: I've got -- I've got two people from my office here who weren't born when this show started.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Chairman, go on. This isn't the Rules Committee.
(CROSSTALK)
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: When you don't have an answer, you do these things.
DREIER: I'll tell you what happened. Among other things, September 11, a downturn, which began before this administration came into power.
CARVILLE: Well, they had one quarter of negative growth.
DREIER: Well let me -- let me tell you, we are right now in a very, very serious -- facing a very serious crisis and it has to do with our national security, and we've had to expend more in resources on that. And I will tell you, we have put into place a tax bill, James, which will go a long way towards improving our economy and we have a way to go, but we need to do even more. That's why efforts to make the tax bill permanent, the tax cuts permanent, I think are very important.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Unfortunately the United States Senate is not for that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... cost $30 billion a year. You know how many -- how many $30 billions it take to get to $5.6 trillion?
DREIER: Well, you know what? The economic ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: The -- I'll tell you, I mean obviously it'll take a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
DREIER: But the economic slowdown that we've seen in the wake of September 11 obviously played a role in diminishing the flow of revenues of the Federal Treasury, and if you do what Novak and I want to do, and that is cut the top rate on capital gains, put into place the kinds of incentives for economic growth, we'd be able to deal with this, clearly.
NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, I want to -- I want to talk a little bit about this debt ceiling, it's an -- it's an issue that makes most minds boggle. But I want you to take a look at what the speaker of the House said to -- on the "NOVAK, HUNT, & SHIELDS" show last weekend. Let's listen ...
RANGEL: Good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DENNIS HASTERT, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Some would like to make politics out of -- out of the debt ceiling. We will not let the federal government default on debt. It will not happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Now he -- the some he's talking about are you and your colleagues. Why in the world will you not vote for a absolutely a mechanical raising of the debt limit? When you go into debt, you have to raise the limit. You used to do it the -- under Democratic presidents, isn't that the worst kind of demagoguery to say because we have a Republican president we won't vote to raise the debt ceiling?
RANGEL: That's (UNINTELLIGIBLE). He didn't want an answer. The one reason that I won't vote for the debt ceiling is because the Republicans won't come out with a bill.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We got it.
RANGEL: Please. The speaker -- the speaker said time and time again that we cannot have a vote on this because we don't have the votes.
DREIER: That's not true.
RANGEL: He says that we need Democrats to do it, and so what they intend to do instead of bringing out a clean bill so that we can vote up or down, what they intend to do is to put it into a spending bill.
DREIER: Oh, no.
RANGEL: Now let me tell you this. The reason that they don't want to have an up and down vote is because we Democrats say hey, if you go to increase borrowing, show us the numbers, but they don't want to show us the numbers.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: All they have to do is put a bill on the floor.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You all want to increase taxes -- you want to increase taxes and you want us to increase spending in exchange for increasing the debt ceiling ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: All we want is a bill to raise the debt ceiling. We have to borrow.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute, James. Mr. Rangel, I'm so disappointed in you, because you know how much I admire you.
RANGEL: I know you do.
NOVAK: And for you to get into this demagoguery just disappoints ...
RANGEL: Asking for a clean vote?
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... a clean vote?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: If you'd -- if they bring up a clean vote ...
RANGEL: Yes.
NOVAK: ... the Democrats will vote no. You're saying ...
RANGEL: We will not.
NOVAK: ... we're against the tax cut, you'll vote no. It'll go down and it'll be a humiliation.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: Wait, wait, wait ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: Let me answer ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We're going to have a clean vote in the supplemental appropriations bill.
RANGEL: Let me answer this. If you brought up a clean bill and the Democrats voted against it to close down the government, as some of my Republican friends have done, it would mean a political defeat for us. The problem is we're asking, show us the numbers before you borrow. If you're part of a family, you're part of a company ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: Hold it, hold it, hold it -- and you say we have to borrow money, you at least have to show where you're spending it.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're not pledging to vote for it.
RANGEL: If they show us the numbers, we will support the United States government ...
DREIER: And we will ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We will do just that.
RANGEL: We can't afford to have Social Security collapse no matter how badly ...
(CROSSTALK) DREIER: And that ain't going to happen. Charlie, don't let anyone in this audience believe that Social Security is going to collapse. You know full well ...
RANGEL: I didn't say -- I said we would not allow it to happen.
DREIER: And you know what, it's not going to -- it's not going to happen, Charlie.
RANGEL: I know it!
DREIER: I know. You say that ...
RANGEL: You guys haven't got the guts to touch Social Security.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: You want to do it, but you're not going to do it.
CARVILLE: Excuse me here, but let me talk for the shoe clerks in this poker game. You have said ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... you have said something that I find stunning, that they won't just put a bill up to tell what you the numbers are?
RANGEL: No ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: No.
CARVILLE: Are they that -- are they that ashamed of the fact that they've run this country in a ditch, that they've taken $5.6 trillion ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... and turned it over ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You know the amazing thing ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... you know what the amazing thing is?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... you know ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... willing to bring out a bill, that he will bring it out in a spending bill.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: And so what you do mean ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Oh, I can't believe this ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It's worse than I thought.
NOVAK: Can the chairman of the House Rules Committee answer you, please?
DREIER: James, let me tell you that you are just totally off base here. What we have done ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... what we have done is, we have said that we want to, in the supplemental appropriations bill, which we're trying to get through so that we can have the resources necessary for our men and women -- men and women in uniform, about whom we were speaking earlier, and homeland security. And we want to get that done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
DREIER: We also said that we had language in there that would allow us to consider increasing the debt ceiling. When the Democrats were in charge, they had something called the Gephardt rule. You know what that rule said? It said they automatically increased the debt ceiling without any kind of accountability or vote at all, and so they have Charlie now ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Yes, they have Charlie now sitting here saying, we got to have a clean vote ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We're going to have a clean vote, Charlie.
RANGEL: ... Secretary Treasury Rubin for doing what they're doing now.
DREIER: Baloney. I never wanted to impeach Bob Rubin. You know that...
(CROSSTALK) DREIER: Come on. Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: He said that yes, we'll have a debt ceiling, but we're not going to have it straight out. We'll have ...
DREIER: Yes, we are going to have it straight out ...
RANGEL: He said in the ...
DREIER: ... in the supplemental appropriations bill.
RANGEL: ... in the supplemental appropriation ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: And that is very clear.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: The supplemental appropriation is for our men and women in the armed forces, for national ...
DREIER: Yes.
RANGEL: ... defense. All of these things, how can you vote against it when you wrap in it in the American flag? I say put the bill out there separately, let's vote up or down.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Paying Social Security is part of being wrapped in the ...
NOVAK: And what ...
DREIER: ... American flag, Charlie.
NOVAK: ... and what you do -- what you want to do, and what the Democratic Senate does, as you put the debt limit in this appropriations bill, you'll load it up with all your pork barrel spending, all your extra spending projects.
RANGEL: We don't want it ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... spending.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: We want a clean bill!
DREIER: Dick Gephardt just did a letter to the speaker, which he ... RANGEL: You know what you're saying, Bob?
DREIER: ... basically said that, which he advocated ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... what you were just saying.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... asking for a clean bill is political, that's what you're saying.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Novak, Congressman Rangel and Mr. Carville for the same ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: They're going to increase spending and increase taxes in exchange for what they're calling a ...
CARVILLE: Why not do it ...
DREIER: ... clean vote.
CARVILLE: Why not do it -- why not just get the clean vote?
RANGEL: Yes!
CARVILLE: Why do you have to be devious about it?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why don't you just put it ...
DREIER: You know what they want?
CARVILLE: ... out there?
DREIER: ... you know what they want? I'll tell you, James ...
CARVILLE: Just put the thing out there!
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... there's ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... nothing devious about our trying to control government spending and also trying to prevent the Democrats from a massive tax increase on working Americans.
RANGEL: Why don't you give us a clean bill? DREIER: That's what they want -- that's what they want for this clean vote.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Dick Gephardt ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... Dick Gephardt just said that in a letter to the speaker today.
RANGEL: It's a great answer to a question I didn't ask. Why don't you give us a chance ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: After 20 years, you want to be the host here? When did you start asking questions?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I guess what happened here ...
RANGEL: OK.
NOVAK: ... Congressman Rangel, what has happened is that we, thanks to the economy, thanks to the Republican Congress, we ended up with a surplus for several years during the Clinton administration and ...
RANGEL: President Clinton ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: During the Clinton administration ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: When he embraced Republican themes.
NOVAK: Republican Congress ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: So what -- so what has happened, and this is -- I think it was a bipartisan problem, you people started spending like crazy, and the reason we have a deficit now is there was so much spending during the fat years of surplus that when you have some lean years, you can't handle it. Isn't that what happened?
RANGEL: Could you pass over the $1.3 trillion tax cut for the rich? I mean that didn't happen?
DREIER: That has ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: That just ...
DREIER: ... mitigated the economic ...
RANGEL: ... that just disappeared.
DREIER: ... downturn and you know that, Charlie.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You know that that has mitigated the economic downturn ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... we've got right now.
RANGEL: You're talking about ...
DREIER: That's one of the most important things that we have to deal with, the challenges that we've got economically.
RANGEL: The recession, the war against the evil empire. You talk about all of these things, but the tax cut, hey ...
DREIER: So Charlie ...
RANGEL: ... when did it happen?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You know what ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: So Charlie hasn't changed in 20 years -- in the 20 years of CROSSFIRE, he's been for more taxes and more spending and he's continued ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: Why don't you answer the subject, you had a tax cut ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: It's very (UNITELLIGIBLE) Charlie. Happy anniversary as a tax increaser.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: You lost a $5 trillion surplus ...
CARVILLE: May I ask you a question? RANGEL: You had $1.4 trillion tax bill and you don't even say it in the same breath.
NOVAK: Do you think -- do you really believe, I mean you know a lot about economics, do you really believe that if we had not had this tax cut that the economy would not be much worse than it is today?
RANGEL: I would think that you have fulfilled your promise to protect Social Security, to protect Medicare. You said you never would intrude upon it and we would ...
DREIER: We haven't.
RANGEL: ... we would still have our surplus.
DREIER: Oh come -- that is -- that is baloney.
RANGEL: And now you're trying to make it ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... now you're trying to make the tax cuts permanent at a time that you're asking for an increase ...
DREIER: We're trying to make them permanent so that we can keep the economy growing and get it back on track, letting the American people keep more of their hard earned dollars ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... you know that very well.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: It was on track before you guys got the majority, it was on track.
DREIER: That's not true.
CARVILLE: Did you cut the capital gain sector rate?
DREIER: We have cut the capital gain ...
CARVILLE: Boy, that's really helped the stock market ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: And you know what ...
CARVILLE: ... look at America and say, we cut the capital gain tax rate and the stock market has gone up.
DREIER: James, we haven't cut it enough.
CARVILLE: Look at ...
DREIER: We ...
CARVILLE: Look at ...
DREIER: We haven't cut it enough, but we cut to where it was. We just followed John F. Kennedy's model by bringing about a cut. We need to cut it down to 15 percent ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We need to ...
CARVILLE: What happened since you cut it?
DREIER: Since we cut it we've seen economic growth, but we have not cut ...
CARVILLE: What happened to the stock market?
DREIER: We need to cut ...
CARVILLE: What happened to Nasdaq? You think -- I'm sorry, I must be Lou Dobbs ...
DREIER: It went up ...
CARVILLE: ... it's gone -- it's gone right up.
DREIER: James, it went down.
CARVILLE: Charlie, the stock market has gone up. This is what they're saying. They didn't cause the debt and the stock market is going up.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We want to put the capital gains tax to zero.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Time out.
DREIER: We need to do more ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: That American firms should go abroad ...
NOVAK: All right.
RANGEL: ... to avoid ...
NOVAK: And we'll talk about that, Charlie ...
RANGEL: Oh, yes.
NOVAK: In just a minute, we'll ask our guests about another hot money topic. Should some of America's largest companies be permitted to move their headquarters off shore to say, Bermuda, to avoid paying U.S. taxes?
Later ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Later, how could liberal policies have caused the massive Western wildfires? I'll be happy to fill you in on that.
And our quote of the day is from a former talk show host who doesn't want to sit down with a certain ex-president from Arkansas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to our 20th anniversary edition of CROSSFIRE. Coming up, some favorite fights in the past two decades. We got a pretty good one going tonight. But right now Washington is running out of money and one reason why is because companies are moving to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. Congress is considering ways to stop them from hiding in paradise. New York Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel and California Republican Congressman David Dreier are in the "Crossfire."
DREIER: Nice to be here.
NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, I'd like to -- I'd like to try to explain to you what is happening with these companies who have reversed their called an inversion - they had their headquarters in Bermuda and the affiliate here, why they have to do that and I'm going to give you a quote from an economist. The economist is the House Majority Leader, Dick Armey, one of the best economists I know it, and he - we'll put it up on the screen.
He says, "Corporate inversions are not the result of anti- American corporate sentiment, but tax laws that place U.S.-based multinational companies at a disadvantage with their foreign competitor". And let's look at the corporate tax rate -- put that up on the screen. In the European countries, U.S. 40 percent; Germany, 38; France, 34; Britain, 30. Why don't -- instead of trying to penalize these companies, why don't you just lower the -- significantly lower the corporate tax rate?
RANGEL: You know what you're saying? You're saying during a time of war, if you don't like the tax structure, flee the country and avoid paying your taxes. And the ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... and the majority -- listen, the majority leader says the tax code is unfair. Well, most people, especially in your tax bracket, believe it's unfair, but I think -- I think that since God has blessed you with so much talent and income that you shouldn't flee to Bermuda to avoid your responsibility. If you don't like - if you don't like the tax code, change the Congress. Get people there ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... change the law, but don't run away from your ...
DREIER: If we change the Congress, I doubt ...
RANGEL: ... responsibility.
DREIER: ... I doubt if we change the Congress that you cut the corporate tax.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... into Bermuda.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: These poor corporations, they don't have any lobbyists here. They got no influence. They give no campaign contributions. They are just pitiful little people like these people that work at Wal-Mart, that are locked up in the stores, or do they have lobbyists, Charlie?
DREIER: A lot of the Wal-Mart people are complaining about the tax code as it is, too.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: You can complain. That's healthy ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... to flee the country is unpatriotic.
CARVILLE: I got an idea ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are fleeing the country.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why don't we just get corporations that flee the country, to get the Navy of Bermuda to protect them against an attack. Why don't they get the army of Bermuda to give them some protection against attacks ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... if they don't want to pay taxes in this country ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... if they want to go to Bermuda, the hell with them. Let them go and don't come here and ask us to protect them.
DREIER: And you can lead the brigade, James.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Let me just say that I think that this is a challenge with which we're dealing. The committee on which Charlie sits as a ranking minority member is -- they had a hearing, I think, today on this, didn't you?
RANGEL: Yes, the subcommittee did.
DREIER: Yes, the subcommittee did have a hearing on it and this is an issue that is going to be addressed. But I think Bob is right on target when he talks about the fact that people obviously go to where the rates are lower. And you know what, if we could lower the rate here I'm convinced that in response to what Charlie just said ...
RANGEL: I don't believe ...
DREIER: ... that we'd able to increase ...
RANGEL: If you don't like ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... if you don't like ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... the law and I'm not saying you should like the law ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... I'm not saying you should like it, but what you're encouraging corporations ...
DREIER: We're not encouraging ...
RANGEL: ... who's making profits, if you don't like the United States tax law ...
NOVAK: Let me ask you a question.
RANGEL: ... flee the country during a time of war. That's disgraceful.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: And we're responsibly holding hearings to try and deal with this.
NOVAK: Let me ask -- let me ask you a question. Would you rather have a situation, instead of having these inversions, would you rather have a situation where they sell the company or close the company?
RANGEL: You know what I would really like? I would like for them to lobby the Congress, to have hearings, to have votes on these things and decide what's in the best interests of the United States of America. But the Republicans ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: ... they don't believe in having hearings.
DREIER: Charlie ...
RANGEL: ... they believe in ...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You just admitted that there was a subcommittee hearing today.
(CROSSTALK)
What are you talking about, Charlie? We had a hearing ...
RANGEL: That's the subcommittee ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: We don't ...
DREIER: The subcommittee hold a hearing today ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Time is up. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Happy anniversary, fellows.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Honorable Charles Rangel, Honorable ...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: Happy anniversary.
NOVAK: Thank you very much.
RANGEL: Happy anniversary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK ...
NOVAK: OK ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Still to come -- still to come in the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert," Joe Lieberman is the senator from which state? You won't be able to guess from the number of days he's been there. Also our quote of the day is from someone who describes herself as a good Democrat and considering who she won't be seen with, maybe she really is a good Democrat.
Then we'll dig into our vaults and look back at CROSSFIRE's first 20 years. Here's a quick preview. See if you can guess who this young whippersnapper might be.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: That poll very interestingly shows you're in terrific shape with everybody except the blacks.
ED KOCH, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: Wrong!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Now it's time to look at those unusual and interesting stories you might not find anywhere but in our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Martha Stewart today told CBS -- quote -- "I want to focus on my salad." That's fine, Martha, but a lot of people still want to focus on your financial dealings, especially a stock deal that critics think looks like and smells like a deal based on inside information. Well, maybe have suspicions will just wilt away. Martha predicts she'll be -- she'll be -- quote -- "exonerated of any ridiculousness".
NOVAK: I guess that's the big deal, just attack Martha Stewart because she's rich and a woman.
CARVILLE: Well, when she's asked these questions, she just said she wanted to make salad, maybe the dressing wasn't that good.
NOVAK: Joseph Lieberman is a U.S. senator from Connecticut, at least in theory that is. Actually, the "Hartford Courant" newspaper reports that the 2000 Democratic vice presidential candidate has spent just 10 days, yes 10 days back home in Connecticut this year. His time spent in other states -- 51 days.
Joe's running for president, so he has to be on the road, but fellow Democratic senators who also have the presidential bug, John Kerry of Massachusetts, John Edwards of North Carolina spend many, many more days at home. Maybe Joe Lieberman wants to be America's senator or maybe he just doesn't like being in Connecticut any more.
CARVILLE: I'll tell you what, he's a hell of a fine senator and as Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards would make a fine presidential candidate, and he's been very effective for Connecticut.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, how many times you got to go home? He knows the state upside down. What do you think? You don't know where Hartford is?
NOVAK: Maybe he doesn't like being there.
CARVILLE: California Congressman Joe Baca's golf swing is pretty good until he comes to that follow through. Baca fired a hole in one during a charity golf government tournament yesterday in Virginia. Now golfing traditions holds that anyone who sinks a hole in one buys a round of drinks for everyone back in the clubhouse. But according "Roll Call" nobody seems to have collected it.
There were about 70 people in Baca's group. I don't blame (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I wouldn't have bought 70 people drinks. Maybe he could use it as an excuse to stay back and pay for a pay raise for the Congress.
NOVAK: Well, I think Joe can afford it and you ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: That's the big difference.
CARVILLE: Seventy drinks is a lot.
NOVAK: Comedian Rosie O'Donnell isn't doing her talk show any more, but even if she was you wouldn't see Bill Clinton on her guest list and her reason why is our quote of the day.
Over the weekend, during her first stand up comedy routine in six years, O'Donnell has this to say about the former president. I just love this quote. "He disgusts me and I know I'm not supposed to say this because I'm a good Democrat, but I don't want to talk to him because he lied to me when he said I did not have sexual relations with that woman".
Rosie, a lot of Americans agree with what you said, but why didn't you say that during the impeachment fight?
CARVILLE: Well, I tell you what, if she was a comedy routine and it was comical, and I think that given President Clinton's record, remember the day we had declining deficits and surging stock markets, I think a lot of people would be glad to get President Clinton back and get some real economic leadership in the Oval office, which we don't have right now.
NOVAK: A little bit of football history is getting a new home. CNN's Connie Chung joins us next with the details.
Later, we'll ask how much radical liberal environmentalists are to blame for the Western wildfires.
And then we'll look back at some of the people who have been in and out of the CROSSFIRE for the past 20 years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Connie, I understand you're also going an interview tonight -- Pavarotti. I'm an opera buff. Do you think we'll ever hear Pavarotti sing again?
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, yes. See, he's got a schedule lined up. But he did tell me, which was a real surprise to me, Bob, exactly when he will retire. He says it's going to be on his birthday in 2005.
NOVAK: Well, we look forward to seeing that. Congratulations on your first show last night and thank you, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Thank you, Bob.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Bob, I'm curious to see Connie's interview with Secretary Powell because he's had a tough time with infighting in the administration. I mean he went over to the Middle East and they tried to pull the rug from under him. And Washington is abuzz by the fact that he didn't come out on top with the president's speech yesterday in terms of the Middle East.
NOVAK: Well, everything is not -- is not the kind of throat cutting that you have in the Democratic Party, James.
CARVILLE: Right, there's no throat cutting...
NOVAK: And I talked -- I talked to the secretary of state last night and he is very content with this. He thinks this is a good policy. He believes that Arafat missed the bus and you may not like it, but I think he's in command and he is running the show.
CARVILLE: I think he's a doggone good soldier, one of the best we ever had.
NOVAK: OK, thank you.
We've gotten an e-mail about Martha Stewart's money problems. Will Martha's fans think it's a good thing? Find out in "Fireback." We're also getting ready to look at CROSSFIRE's most fiery moments, but first, who or what is really to blame for the horrendous fire out west?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Out in Arizona, firefighters say there is 50 percent chance by the end of the day the town of Show Low will be considered a wall of fire. They've done what they can to stop it, but the super- hot flames and the super-dry rangeland are making firefighting nearly impossible.
It's been an awful fire season out west. A lot of people think the government's own policies are to blame. Listen to the reaction President Bush got in Arizona when he talked to a room full of folks who have been chased out of their homes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We got a lot of work to do to make sure the Forest Service has got wise forest policy, to make sure that...
(APPLAUSE)
BUSH: ... to maintain the forests so that they're healthy and viable and not become kindling boxes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Did environmentalists in the Forest Service turn the west into kindling boxes? In the "Crossfire," Kieran Suckling, executive director of the Center For Biological Diversity -- he's in Rochester, New York and here in Washington is Republican Congressman Scott McInnis of Colorado.
NOVAK: Mr. Suckling, let me give you a startling statistic. There used to be 36 to 81 trees -- in Arizona where these fires are going on -- per acre. Now, there are 1,801. Many of them started as little trees because the environmentalists won't let them be chopped down. You have a created a holocaust, haven't you?
KIERAN SUCKLING, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY: Well, the interesting statistic is that those trees that were there in smaller numbers before were all old growth trees. Those are now gone because the Forest Service chopped them down for the timber industry. Then, the Forest Service, for the last hundred years, long before environmentalists were around, has put out every fire in the area, which has caused these dense thickets to go up. So the problem we have out there has nothing to do with environmentalism and what's happened the last couple of decades. This is has to do with a hundred years of mismanagement by the U.S. Forest Service.
NOVAK: Well, let me give you - Mr. Suckling, let me give you a witness for the opposition. And I'm not giving you some fellow right- winger like me and Mr. McInnis. We're - I'm going to give you the liberal's favorite Republican these days and environmentalist, Senator John McCain of Arizona. And let's listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: It might have been not nearly as serious if it hadn't been for radical environmental organizations and others that have kept us from cleaning out these forests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Quite apart from your history...
SUCKLING: Well...
NOVAK: ... you had kept them from cleaning out the forests, haven't you?
SUCKLING: Well, if there's one thing that all western Republicans are consistent about, is blaming every calamity they can think of on environmentalists. Just after the World Trade Center attack, that day Don Young was blaming environmentalists and he was wrong.
Mr. McInnis, who's here with us today, last year, blamed the death of firefighters on the Endangered Species Act. And then, all the federal reviews afterwards said he was wrong. And so today, when McInnis and McCain and the usual crowd comes out and blames the latest calamity on environmentalists, they're wrong again.
What's wrong with these forests is they've been managed exclusively for timber industry profits for a hundred years. The old fire resistant trees have been cut down and shipped to the timber mills and fires have been suppressed because they were viewed to be dangerous to the timber industry. And now, we have got this problem.
And while environmentalists are putting forward solutions to the issue, which is thinning small trees, doing prescribed burns, the timber industry -- the Forest Service at -- with the help of the western Republicans, keep pushing to cut down more old growth trees. We're not going to solve this problem by cutting down...
REP. SCOTT MCINNIS (R), COLORADO: Let me just say something to you. Let me say something to you. My home is in Colorado. I've lived there all my life. I've been on these fires. I've taken bodies off those mountains. We lost five firefighters just miles from my house over the weekend, responding to these things. This isn't a partisan issue. Get off that Republican/Democratic stuff. We got stuff burning out there, pal, and you better wake up to it.
(APPLAUSE)
SUCKLING: This is a partisan issue.
CARVILLE: Go ahead, Mr. Novak. I agree it's not a partisan issue. Mr. Novak's been sitting here blaming the liberals and environmentalists the whole show; so if you want to criticize this guy, criticize him too.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me - let me ask you a question, Congressman. I - and seriously, and I understand you got real problems. I grew up in Louisiana.
MCINNIS: Yes.
CARVILLE: Part of growing up in Louisiana is hurricanes.
MCINNIS: Yes.
CARVILLE: They come.
MCINNIS: Yes.
CARVILLE: What traditional role -- is forest fires, is that an unusual occurrence in the west of is that part of life in the west?
MCINNIS: Well, no, the fires themselves are going to happen. I mean we have lightning. We have things like that that are natural consequences that occur, but it is how the forest is managed. For example, in the early 1900s, 1910s -- in fact, it created the birth of Smokey The Bear - you'd have up to 50 million acres a year that burned down in these forests. But what happened is, when the country began to aggressively fight fires, now, those fire losses are around five million acres. So you have 45 million acres actually now because of the accumulation. Seventy-five million acres of accrued - what they call fuel - that's dead stuff that falls on the floor of the forest and it's not being cleaned up.
So now, what's different between these fires and those fires are, these fires burn so intensely they spread much, much faster and sterilize the ground. They destroy the soil underneath them. That's the problem. It's the intensity...
NOVAK: What should be done?
MCINNIS: ... and level of. Well, what you need to - there are several things that you need to do. One, people that live in -- we live in the mountains. Now, people say get away from the trees. We live with them. Everybody has trees in their yards. So what you have to do is you have to do - you have to do thinning around your home. You have to do common sense stuff around your home.
The second thing you've got to do is we have got to allow the Forest Service, the scientists -- what happened - and you heard it from this guy and I don't know him, but I just heard it from him, talking about logging and stuff - you know, they have driven the emotion of logging so hard, that that now is dictating Forest Service policy instead of the science. We've got to allow the science to manage these forests.
CARVILLE: Well, let me just -- you want to respond to what he said, sir?
SUCKLING: Yeah, I do. They do need to have science in charge of this and that's not happening because the constant sucking sound of the timber industry for big trees is preventing the Forest Service from doing its job.
Let me give you an example...
MCINNIS: Let me - let me - no, one thing...
SUCKLING: The Forest Service...
MCINNIS: ... because you've said something here. I want to clarify it. You show me one sawmill in the state of Colorado. Colorado is not a logging state and my friend, Colorado, has got a lot of fires going on right now. So don't pull our discussion...
SUCKLING: Well, let me tell you what's going on right now...
MCINNIS: Don't pull our...
SUCKLING: Let me tell you what's going on right now in Arizona...
MCINNIS: In a second. In a second. What's going on is in legitimate discussion that shouldn't be pulled into this logging debate you want. Let's talk about the thinning of the forests. It's not -- look, pal, it isn't a laughing matter to me. There is a lot of people...
SUCKLING: Yes.
MCINNIS: ... there's a lot of people hurting out there.
CARVILLE: Now let him answer, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He gave you - now, let him answer. Go ahead, sir.
SUCKLING: The answer is - the answer to this is we do need to be thinning small trees in some areas of the forest. Environmentalists have supported that. We do need to be doing prescribed burns to deal with these small trees in some parts of the forest.
But I'll tell you what's happening right now in Arizona, OK. The Forest Service is not focusing its thinning projects around the urban areas that are threatened. Instead, they're off cutting down old growth trees in the wilderness, 30, 40, 50 miles away from the nearest home.
Why are we operating 45 miles away from a home instead of near towns? It's because there is this desire to always go after the big trees, instead of dealing with the root problem here. And there is no money to be made in thinning small trees. So our concern here is that the Forest Service is not doing enough - is not focusing its projects in that area. And Mr. McInnis knows this is true because he has been a receiver of reports from the GAO.
MCINNIS: I got plenty of stuff...
SUCKLING: No, no, it's not a personal attack.
MCINNIS: ... about you. So let's talk about...
SUCKLING: It's not a personal attack.
MCINNIS: So let's talk about the substance here.
SUCKLING: What I'm saying is you yourself have been given reports by the GAO, which have said what I'm saying, that the Forest Service is not directing that money given to deal with this problem to thinning these trees in the urban areas.
CARVILLE: You, your district, you're directly affected by this. The thing about the Forest Service is it belongs to people. It belongs to the Congress. It works for Congress. What can we do to make the Forest Service -- he's criticized the Forest Service and you're criticizing the Forest Service, everybody - what do we need to do to make the Forest Service better where we can fight these fires better?
MCINNIS: Well, a lot of - I mean in kind of a perverse way, one of the benefits of the horrible tragedies that we have out there, that's occurred, is a lot of people now are going to be much more attentive in their own homes -- that are in what we call the urban interface -- to cleaning out and doing their own thinning.
Second of all, the litigation - we've got to have cooperation. Now, the gentleman I'm speaking to is one of the most litigious people in the country on these issues. We are - I'm asking, give us some cooperation. Let the Forest Service go do what the science is.
Now, let me mention to you that on the South Platte fire, the big fire in Colorado called the Hayman fire, we have - we're very fortunate there because we have two Plattes one next to each other. One Platte was thinned out, and the other Platte was prevented from being thinned out by appeals from environmental groups. So we're going to be able to go in and study, scientifically, what the fire characteristics were on the thinned out area, what the fire characteristics were on the area that wasn't thinned. And that should give us some idea on how to help...
NOVAK: Mr. Suckling, the Congressman raised an interesting point, and that is the litigiousness of the environmental movement. The State of Arizona spends 40 percent of its budget on defending itself against environmental suits. Do you think you're really being productive? Do you think you're really helping the problem when you're going to court to pursue your agenda at every instance?
SUCKLING: Well, Bob, I think you're getting some bad information there. First of all, the 40 percent figure is not about the State of Arizona. It's about the U.S. Forest Service. Secondly, that 40 percent figure is the money the agency spends preparing its environmental analysis, not what it spends in court defending itself.
Mr. McInnis asked the GAO to do analysis of how many appeals, how much litigation is going on out there over these thinning projects. Last August, they gave him his results and what they said is...
NOVAK: All right, Mr. Suckling...
SUCKLING: ... 1,000 - no, no, I'm going to finish this. Hold on.
NOVAK: We're in our last quarter. We're out of time. It's not a problem.
All right, Mr. Suckling, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Congressman McInnis.
Coming up on "Fireback," a viewer who thinks Hilary Rodham Clinton is clairvoyant. But before we look into the future, we're celebrating CROSSFIRE's past 20 years. You won't want to miss this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Twenty years ago, today, on June 25, 1982, a brand new CNN show went on the air.
The big topic on the very first show was Secretary of State Alexander Hague's resignation. Things have sure changed over the years, but one of the things that's been consistent throughout CROSSFIRE'S long history, the man, Robert Novak. Take a look at some of our favorite moments with the prince of darkness.
(LAUGHTER)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NOVAK: Well, I thought he was very accurate when he said you sounded ridiculous and not understanding.
No, I didn't say that. I say that when they are undermining the negotiating position of the United States...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say that they are...
NOVAK: I am going - I am going to say it.
Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln when Stephen Douglas saying, before we say anything here in Freeport, Illinois, we would like somebody to pass through the crowds and give us a few dollars.
Why did you laugh over the death of an American serviceman...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, don't be a demagogue by getting on my laugh.
NOVAK: Tell me why you did. You - it's on tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm in for Tom Grayden (ph); I'm Mike Kingsley (ph). Good night from CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: It's on the tape. You laughed.
You know and I know that if President Clinton did what I suggest and got rid of him, we would have impeachment proceedings going on the track right now. I'd have to cancel my vacation trip to Hawaii.
I mean, you think anybody who disagrees with you is a right- winger. You probably I'm a right-winger.
CARVILLE: No, I just think you're nutty, but...
NOVAK: This move sounded really dopey to me. I couldn't understand why he was doing it, until I heard that you were the person who recommended it. Did you? Do you think Al Gore - just listen to it. Listen to it.
CARVILLE: Let's go back 24 years ago.
NOVAK: Do you think - no, we'll go back one minute ago.
And anybody who calls me a demagogue, sitting next to you, that's like the frog calling him a friend out loudly, you know.
CARVILLE: Then can I call you a chimp then?
NOVAK: Yeah, any time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARVILLE: Well, Mr. Novak, I'm glad that people had a chance to see that because I thought I was subjected to something new and different, but you know, you've been this way a for a long, long time.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: I've been defending American values for 20 years on this program and you've been attacking them.
CARVILLE: Yeah, you're a jerk, but you're a consistent jerk and there's something to be said for that. Congratulations on all of the wonderful shows you've done. It's -- we have a lot of fun together. I've disagreed with you, but it's always an honor to be on television...
NOVAK: Well, you know, even you have been on the show a lot, long before you were a host, as a guest.
CARVILLE: Yes, sir.
NOVAK: So let's look at that, too.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARVILLE: I got news for the Republicans in Houston, for Newt Gingrich and the whole bunch down there, the tax issue belongs to the Democrats.
Wake up and smell the coffee. I hope Newt Gingrich loses the election. I hope he's not speaker. You know, this is America. I am free to say that.
It wasn't because of his action. He didn't do nothing. He's been exonerated -- White Water, Travel Gate, File Gate and everything else.
First of all, I don't know if I really want him fired. I'm having too good a time.
He's obsessed with getting Bill Clinton. He spent $40 million to get him. He hadn't gotten a thing.
Fifty million dollars to do what, to try to get this man? And you know what it ends up with? Sex. That's the way they are, in the ditch.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NOVAK: You know, I didn't realize - and this is a very important point -- you had more hair at one point.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: You weren't always a cue ball.
CARVILLE: You'd be surprised. I had a lot more other things at one point in my life. The years do that to us.
NOVAK: But you know the one thing about you, James, is you're just defending old Bill Clinton. You're attacking...
CARVILLE: You know what? I love him.
NOVAK: ... attacking his critics.
CARVILLE: I love him. You're right.
NOVAK: You just never change, do you?
CARVILLE: You're right. And I - you know what? It's one of the most fun things I ever did in my life. I had a good time. I'll promise you that.
NOVAK: Well, you know, do you ever sometimes think about boy, what that guy has done to me or how he has humiliated me and all?
CARVILLE: You know he's been a dear friend to me - a dear friend of mine, he and his wife both. And I'm just honored to have defended them, to have worked for them and I'm just glad all the great things they did in the country. And I wish he was back so I could be making more money on these damn stock markets.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: He'll never be back.
Next, one of the newest editions to CROSSFIRE -- your turn to "Fireback" at us. One of our viewers has e-mailed a suggestion - can you believe it -- for enhancing James Carville's performance.
ANNOUNCER: If you'd like to "Fireback" at CROSSFIRE, e-mail us at CROSSFIRE@CNN.com. Make sure to include your name and hometown.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: It's "Fireback," when the viewers fire back at us. Our first e-mail from Juan Jimmenez, Euless, Texas who asks - "Will Sharon step down and call for elections if Arafat does the same? If not, what right does he or the U.S. have to demand new elections?"
I think Juan has a very good point. I think the Middle East would be a lot better off if both Arafat and Sharon were gone.
CARVILLE: Well, yeah, but I mean that's from Sharon. Israel has a constitution. They have elections and prescribed thing, which his something Arafat doesn't.
NOVAK: The PLO does, too.
CARVILLE: "Do you remember when on May 7, 1998 Hillary Clinton said - 'I think it will be in the long-term interests of the Middle East for Palestine to be state?' Can you also remember how she was vilified by the right for what now appears to be incredibly intelligent foresight and out of bible?"
There's so many things that Senator Clinton has been right on and been vilified by the right. I can't even remember them all, but of course, I...
NOVAK: Well, there's so many of them.
CARVILLE: ... I remember that. This is the same woman who is right on everything and her enemies are nothing but a bunch misogynistic, you know, women-hating clowns.
NOVAK: Why don't we get her out of the Senate and just have her sing?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: All right. The next e-mail is from Angela Semari of Brandon, Florida who writes - "It saddens me that Congress would waste taxpayer money to investigate Martha Stewart. Aren't we at war? Isn't our country running a deficit? Martha Stewart has helped bring comfort and beauty into the homes of many Americans since September 11. Our Congress needs to stick it to the real problems of the country."
Angela, I agree with you a 100 percent even though Martha is a Clinton Democrat and I think it is a waste of time for Congress to investigate Martha Stewart. It's small pumpkins.
CARVILLE: I'll tell you one thing - she can make a hell of a salad.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: All right. "Does CNN ban the use of steroids by its CROSSFIRE hosts as a performance-enhancing drug?"
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I thought it was talking about Viagra. "James Carville could use a boost to help form clearer, more well-founded arguments."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: It's not a bad idea.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: In the audience - the first question in the audience - yes, you.
MEREDITH KIMMELL: Good evening, Mr. Carville and Mr. Novak. My name is Meredith Kimmell (ph) and I'm from Clarksville, Tennessee. I was wondering -- when there's so factors, such as what happened on September 11, the war on terrorism and the general trend of the economy, is it really reasonable to blame everything that's going on in the federal budget on the Republican Party?
NOVAK: Well, James will always do that because he is a Democratic activist. I am an even-handed Conservative.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I think it is unfair to blame everything, just about 65 percent of it.
NOVAK: Question.
MARTY LEWIS: Yes, this is for James Carville. I'm Marty Lewis (ph) from Potomac, Maryland. James, you seem to have a problem with the Bush tax cut and I was just wondering if you returned your refund check and also, the refund you get?
NOVAK: Yeah!
CARVILLE: Actually, I gave my $300, I believe, to the trial lawyers. It's a great organization that defends people.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know if you like paying taxes so much, James, maybe you could pay my taxes.
CARVILLE: You know what I like? I like living in a country with well-paid, well-armed soldiers, and well-educated, healthy children and people that take it -- and people that take Elvis.
From the left, I'm James Carville and good night for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Good night. I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. Connie Chung is up next.
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