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CNN Crossfire

Stocks Continue Downward Spiral; Baseball Takes Another Hit Following All-Star Game

Aired July 12, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight: the deficit is up. The markets are down. And everyone's giving him the business.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I've said before that it was a disaster. I think the numbers today demonstrate why I believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. FRED THOMPSON (R), TENNESSEE: Surely we haven't come to the point where we don't at least need some allegations of wrongdoing before we start talking about a special prosecutor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: How many more weeks like this can he stand?

As if the tie wasn't bad enough, now baseball is taking another hit.

And, in the age of jumbo jets, why should the airlines force jumbo passengers to take the bus?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was totally humiliating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Ahead on CROSSFIRE. From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight, the airlines' fattest deal yet -- one for the price of two, if, that is, you're a supersized flier.

Also, the new fundamentals of baseball: throwing, catching, hitting and suing.

But first, our wrap-up of all the political stories -- this is hotter than Georgia asphalt in July -- our CROSSFIRE political alert. The federal government's new anticorruption fraud task force, the prosecutorial SWAT team set up to arrest corporate evildoers, came to the White House to see President Bush today. No arrests were made.

But Bush and his fellow Republicans are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to pose as born-again corporate fraud busters. Bush's spokesman got off this knee-slapper in today's "Wall Street Journal," trying to convince us that Dubya never really liked big business. He said -- quote -- "This is a guy who believes Wall Street will buy you and sell you."

You should know, Mr. President. Wall Street certainly bought you.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Paul, why is it that you liberals just hate businesses that provide all the jobs for ordinary Americans?

BEGALA: We created 23 million jobs for President Clinton, the honest way.

NOVAK: Capitol Hill suddenly got very interested in the children's TV program "Sesame Street" today. "The Washington Post" reported the show's producers are planning to add an HIV-positive Muppet to the cast of the South African version of the show. That did not please Louisiana's congressman, Billy Tauzin.

He and several other lawmakers fired off a letter to the president of the Public Broadcasting System, to make sure that the HIV-positive character does not show up on "Sesame Street's" American edition. The operative line of Tauzin's letter says, "we look forward to working with you to ensure that only age and culture-appropriate programs are on PBS."

"Sesame Street's" producers say they have no plans to incorporate an HIV-positive character into its American programing, and they'd better not.

BEGALA: You know, Bob, here we have terrorists attacking America. We have a stock market collapsing. And Billy Tauzin is worried about "Sesame Street." He belongs on a children's program called "Bozo."

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Anything to cut down American morale. Anything to cut down our standard of living.

BEGALA: No, this is -- people who are sick are getting some comfort from this. God forbid that should happen in South Africa, maybe even here. "Wall Street Journal" reports today that the IRS has named the Republican nominee for governor of California as a potential tax cheat. It seems that William E. Simon Jr. took advantage of tax shelters which the government says may have violated federal tax laws. Simon, of course, is an anti-tax zealot. And despite California's fiscal woes, he pledges to cut the state's capital gains tax. You know, that's the one paid by wealthy investors when they sell stocks and real estate and works of art and polo ponies.

Apparently, Simon, who's a multimillionaire himself, thinks that taxes are something paid by poor people and chumps. Well, we'll see if California voters disagree.

NOVAK: So much for IRS privacy. That's what's wrong with this tax system. I'll give you a little clue, Paul. Capital gains are paid by a lot of people out there who own stock.

BEGALA: Well, Bill Simon should be more responsible and pay his darn taxes.

NOVAK: We have to look this week at why federal spending is high and never gets any lower. Democratic Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur of Ohio thinks the $360,000 limit on federal subsidies to any one farmer is way too high. She wanted to lower it to $275,000 -- still a lot of money for one farmer, But not in the opinion of the powerful bipartisan farm bloc in Congress.

The top Republicans in the House appropriations committee put it straight to Marcy: Leave the farm subsidies alone or you'll lose the fort for your district. Marcy wouldn't give a report. She capitulated yesterday, saying, "I may be blockheaded sometimes, but I'm not stupid."

BEGALA: Well, good for you for raising that. I agree with you on that. These corporate agri-businesses are taking all of those subsidies. They don't need them. For small family farms, they don't need 360 grand.

NOVAK: I'll tell you, if she were to give up her pork, she'd still be elected mid-district.

BEGALA: But they need it. That's a poor district. She should fight.

NOVAK: We all need it.

BEGALA: I'm for pork. But one of the most vulnerable Republicans in the Senate is a man named Wayne Allard. He's a Republican senator from Colorado -- perhaps the No. 1 Senate supporter of Qwest Communications, the telecom firm, which is currently under criminal investigation.

Allard promoted Qwest's merger with USWest and even bought stock in Qwest on the day that the merger was announced. Allard has even spoken on the Senate floor, praising Qwest. Qwest, in turn, is one of Allard's biggest contributors.

Well, with thousands of Coloradans now losing their jobs, their pensions and their life savings because of Qwest, the senator for Qwest is getting nervous. Of course, Allard's defenders say he merely did for Qwest what Phil Gramm did for Enron, Trent Lott did for WorldCom, Republicans do for all these big businesses, right?

NOVAK: Let me fill our viewers in. Senator Allard is one of the targeted Republican incumbents. And of course, the kind of politics that you and my friend James Carville play is, you just want to attack the person. You don't want to talk about issues. Let's just get personal.

BEGALA: Well, let's just lay off thousands of people because of this company that he supported.

NOVAK: The Daleys are not only Chicago's first family, they're south-siders, always in the forefront cheering for the south-side baseball team. Chicago's blue collar team, the White Sox. So it's a shocker when Mayor Richard Daley not only expresses disappointment at the tied score in the all-star game, but he suggests he's turned his back on the sport he grew up with.

He says he never has regained his passion for baseball after the 1994 strike, and adds another strike today would be deadly. And do you know where next year's all-star game will be played? At Comiskey Park, in Rich Daley's south side.

BEGALA: Rich Daley is the best mayor in America. And if he's turning on baseball, baseball's got problems. We're going to talk about that a lot more later.

Well, after the week that he's had, who can blame him? President Bush got the helicopter out of town this afternoon, before sending his budget director out to make excuses for how bad they've made the deficit. President Clinton's record-setting surplus has now turned into Dubya's $160 billion in red ink, and counting.

Meanwhile, the Dow Industrials endured another triple-digit loss today, ending the week down a whopping 695 points. So much for the president inspiring confidence in us with his "do as I say, not as I did," speech on business ethics.

Here to talk about Dubya's woeful week and other political issues, former Congressman and secretary of agriculture, Dan Glickman, a Democrat. This fall, by the way, he'll become the new head of the institute for politics at Harvard's Kennedy school. With him, former Republican Congressman Bob Walker, Pennsylvania.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Good to see you.

NOVAK: Dan Glickman, this has been a tough week for Americans. A lot of Americans own stock. There's a lot of losses. Yet I run across Democrats today. They're just giddy. They are so happy, because they think this is the way they can win an election they had thought was lost. Are you happy about all this? DAN GLICKMAN, (D), FMR. CONGRESSMAN: Well, Bob, I haven't run into very many people who are giddy. And the fact is, is that 50, 60 million Americans are stockholders now and pension plans and 401(k)s, and a lot of people thought that they could retire earlier and enjoy their senior years.

And they're not happy and I don't think they view this as a partisan issue. They want to get stability in the economy. And they are looking for leadership in their government in this regard. But certainly, I haven't met any politicians who are giddy about this.

NOVAK: I can give you a list of them afterwards. I commend you, Mr. Glickman, though, for being a good American. But I think that perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree in trying to say that those Democrats who say that the moral standards of this administration are low.

Let's look at the CNN-"TIME" poll that was just taken this week. We'll put it up on the screen there. Moral and ethical standards are excellent and good. On the top of the list, the Bush administration, 46 percent, religious leaders, 40 percent, the news media, 31 percent. I'm really surprised it's that high.

And Congress, 29 percent. What do you think of that?

GLICKMAN: Well, first of all, I think that those are all very interesting numbers. But I'm more concerned now about the plight of Americans who may be facing an economic downturn. And they're looking for leadership from their government.

And I'm the son of an old, Depression-era family. And my dad used to tell me about the fact that Franklin Roosevelt provided a lot of confidence when times were bad. And I think...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ... we're still high, though.

GLICKMAN: But the fact of the matter is, confidence is still the factor. And that is, I think, what we need more of at all levels of government. But it's got to start with the president.

BEGALA: Bob Walker, let me begin by first thanking you. Nice of you to come.

BOB WALKER (R), FMR. CONGRESSMAN: Nice to be with you.

BEGALA: And, there's a piece of videotape that I want to show you that I think we may see a lot of in the coming election year. As you know, the only big corporation, I think, convicted of a felony recently by the Bush administration is Arthur Andersen, the accounting firm that drove the getaway car for Enron.

Now, here's a piece of videotape of none other than Dick Cheney when he was the CEO of Halliburton. He had the chefs over there from Arthur Andersen cooking his books. Here's what he said in a promotional video for Arthur Andersen. Take a look at our vice president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I get good advice, if you will, from their people based upon how we're doing business and how we're operating, over and above just sort of the normal, by-the-books auditing arrangement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Over and above the by-the-books auditing? This is a man whose company is now under SEC investigation. This is an enormous political problem for the Republicans, isn't it?

WALKER: Well, I don't know that it's an enormous political problem, because the fact is that there's a big problem across the entire economy, not just with Halliburton. And the auditing standards need to be changed.

But this isn't something that started in this administration. And the fact is that Rite Aid is being prosecuted right now by this administration. But that was something that happened back during the Clinton administration. And so there's been a long-term problem here that now needs to be corrected.

And thank goodness President Bush has stepped forward with a program to do something about that. And the interesting thing is, that that program has gotten through the House. It's being held up in the Senate. I mean, why don't we just pass the program, get as much done as we can, so that we can in fact straighten out the mess that we have?

BEGALA: Well, I love when Republicans talk about the need for more government regulation of business. But forgive me if I think it's a little hollow. Because, in point of fact, President Clinton...

WALKER: The president's program didn't call for a lot of new regulation. What it called for...

BEGALA: That is why it's too weak.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Let me ask you the question...

WALKER: Regulation is not tough. Enforcement is tough. And what the president is talking about is enforcement. And all you want to talk about is regulation. Regulation and the fear of regulation is what's driving down the stock market right now. And I think that there are Democrats, excuse me, who are extremely giddy about the fact that the stock markets...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I see it walking down the street. They can hardly contain themselves. GLICKMAN: Wait a second. Look, there's nothing wrong with regulation to make sure that your hamburgers are safe when you eat them. There's nothing wrong with regulation to make sure your airplanes are safe when you fly them. There's nothing wrong with good regulation to make sure your banks are safe and your securities markets are safe.

WALKER: There are very good regulations, but you can over- regulate as well. And that's what the Democrats have been so bad about doing. They've over-regulated, driven down the economy. And right now Wall Street is very concerned that the overreaction to what's happening right now will be the kind of regulation that will destroy the profitability of a lot of companies.

At the same time that they're going after corporate issues, they're in the Senate right now. Instead of trying to solve the prescription drug problem using the Medicare program, what are they doing? They're attacking the pharmaceutical companies and attempting to impose more regulation on the pharmaceutical companies. That is not the way in which you're going to solve America's economic problems.

NOVAK: Let me talk a little bit about politics. The biggest asset the Republican Party has right now is the popularity of George W. Bush. So the whole policy of the political practitioners is to try to attack him and undermine him. Let me show you what the problem is.

From that same CNN-"TIME" poll, who is more responsible for the current accounting scandals? Take a look at that. Bush 33 percent, Clinton -- that's Bill Clinton.

GLICKMAN: I know who he is.

NOVAK: You were his secretary of agriculture -- 40 percent. That's a tough hill to climb, isn't it?

GLICKMAN: Yes, but you know what? It misses the point. The point is that there is a problem out there, a lack of confidence in the fact that millions and millions of Americans who were told that their savings and their securities accounts were secure, are not as secure as they once were. And we really do have to kind of get together and solve this problem.

But I will make one quick point. The '80s produced a period of anti-government feeling, in which I think it was President Reagan led, where he led us to believe that the government was bad and everything that the government did was bad.

And what that has done, I think, has discouraged a lot of very good people from going into the government, working for places like the SEC and the Justice Department, who could be effective regulators and enforcers of the law.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: Money hasn't been appropriated for enough enforcement. You need more enforcement of laws. You have people who have committed criminal acts and you need to go after them.

GLICKMAN: I agree, but in all fairness, Bob, I would say that most people in -- maybe not you -- but most people in your party probably have not been aggressively pushing over the last couple decades for effective enforcement...

NOVAK: We have to take a break right now. And when we come back, we are going to talk about the desperate Democrats playing the race card.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Despite all the Democratic whining, the American public remains overwhelmingly happy with the job President Bush is doing. His approval rating is 77 percent in the latest CNN-"TIME" poll.

We're discussing the president's week with former congressman and secretary of agriculture, Dan Glickman of Kansas, and former Congressman Bob Walker of Pennsylvania.

BEGALA: Congressman Walker, one of the reasons President Bush, I think, rallied the American people in the war against terrorism is that he was a credible leader, right? If our leader had been John Walker Lindh, a former Taliban, it wouldn't have been credible.

In this war against corporate fraud and excess, however, President Bush has a real problem. And that is in the past, he has conducted himself in the very same way that many of these corporations. Let me read you a quote from an expert, Alfred King, who was an adviser to the financial accounting standards board, who sets the standards for accountings.

Here's how he described Bush's conduct. "The people at Enron could have gone to school on this thing." This is Bush's deal at Harken Energy. "They sold to themselves and reported a profit. That's exactly what Enron did on a number of those off-balance sheet transactions. On this one transaction at least, it's almost identical."

Bush's conduct, identical to Enron.

WALKER: Well, this is absolutely ridiculous. And this is the politics of personal disruption that Bob was talking about a few minutes ago. The Democrats are so desperate...

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: The Democrats are so desperate for an issue that they have now decided that what they're going to do is attack the president personally. And they go back to a case that has been investigated now on at least four different occasions.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Forgive me, I know personal attacks. Personal attacks, you say he's got a girlfriend. That's a personal attack. This is his conduct as an executive of a company, sir. That's an issue.

WALKER: No, that's not an issue. Because if it hadn't been investigated and cleared, it might be an issue. But it's been investigated and cleared...

BEGALA: By his daddy.

(LAUGHTER)

WALKER: The clearance came in 1993 under, I think it was President Clinton. That is true. That's when the decision came down.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Can I -- do you mind, please?

BEGALA: Certainly, be my guest.

NOVAK: I want to give a statement that was made to Al Hunt and I by Senator Fred Thompson of Tennessee, from when we interviewed him earlier, which shows in full at 5:30 tomorrow on CNN. I'm sure you'll be watching.

We asked him about all this talk by your fellow Democrats about a special prosecutor. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMPSON: Surely we haven't come to the point where we don't at least need some allegations of wrongdoing before we start talking about a special prosecutor. And I have not heard any of those yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: What do you think of that?

GLICKMAN: Well, I generally agree with that. I'm not real anxious about a special prosecutor. I would say this, that it is much harder for the president and vice president to be in a confidence- building role when these issues surround them. But I think it's way too early to prejudge the facts in this situation.

And I also think in this thing, when you've got the economy teetering, you know, look, if the stock market stays bad for a long time, it will affect the economy. It will affect jobs.

(CROSSTALK)

GLICKMAN: I guess my point is, at this point in time, I think our first priority is to try to get to work on ensuring stability in our financial markets so that average folks out there will know that their savings is safe.

NOVAK: But you don't do that by attacking the president.

GLICKMAN: Well, wait a second. If there's wrongdoing that's taken place, then that has to be pursued. I'm just saying that I wouldn't make this the top priority right now.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about who's doing the pursuing right now. Dick Cheney, who is innocent until proven guilty, was the CEO of Halliburton. They're being investigated now. I'm asking you, do you trust the Bush/Cheney Securities Exchange Commission and the Bush/Cheney Justice Department to investigate Cheney and his firm?

WALKER: Well, I think that they can be trusted. I mean, it's clear that the American people...

BEGALA: Really?

WALKER: Yes, the American people have taken a look at this and think that the people in the Bush administration are a pretty trustworthy lot. And until they've shown that they can't do it, it seems to me that it's prejudging. I thought that these commissions that the Democrats are so fond of were independent, and were supposed to do this work despite the politics.

BEGALA: The Justice Department is not independent...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I want to bring up one thing, Mr. Glickman, quickly. The president did not go to the NAACP convention in Houston. And one of the reasons was the chairman made this statement. He said there was a right-wing conspiracy, and it is operating out of the United States Department of Justice. Do you believe that?

GLICKMAN: Well, first of all, if I were the president I probably would have gone to the convention. Because I always believed that you go and you approach the folks who have opposites points of view with you. The president is a very engaging man. He does a very good job when he goes one on one with groups. And I think it would have been good for him and his party to have gone.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I'm sorry, that's going to have to be the last word. Dan Glickman, thank you very much, Democratic former agriculture secretary. Bob Walker, thank you very much, Republican from Pennsylvania.

NOVAK: Thank you.

BEGALA: Thanks a lot. Good job.

And coming up, you know, you've heard about frequent fliers. But what about flabby fliers? Why some people had to take the bus instead of flying home on Southwest Airlines.

And later, we're going to take a swing at baseball. One fan thinks he can force Major League Baseball to finish the all-star game. What do you think?

And in our quote of the day, you're going to be surprised at who doesn't mind saying "under God" while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. Until this week, we have never heard from the 8-year-old school girl at the center of the Pledge of Allegiance controversy. Her atheist father had filed a lawsuit and got the 9th circuit court of appeals to declare the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because of the two-word phrase "under God."

But now the girl's mother, who has full custody of the child, has released a statement saying she and her daughter are practicing Christians and churchgoers. Sandra Banning gets our quote of the day.

"I was concerned that the American public would be led to believe that my daughter is an atheist, or that she has been harmed by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, including the words 'one nation under God.'"

This is proof it was all just a right wing concoction. No one was harmed. The Pledge is fine. We're all going to be fine.

NOVAK: It wasn't a right wing concoction. It's this left wing nut, Dr. Newdow, who we had on this table. And you can tell now where the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is, like most liberals. He has no connection with his daughter. He has no custody. He misrepresented her. And it's all a total fraud.

BEGALA: It's OK. And now, we're going to need "under God," because Bush keeps tanking the economy, tanking the stock market. That's why we need God. Everybody is praying. God, get us somebody who knows what the hell they're doing on the economy.

NOVAK: Do you think you could ever get through one subject without tanking George Bush?

BEGALA: No, no, no! Not until he goes back to the farm.

NOVAK: Another big-name business is laying off employees. CNN's Connie Chung has details next in our "News Alert."

Later, should wide bodies pay more to ride on narrow jets?

Also, perhaps one baseball first deserves another.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University at the heart of Foggy Bottom, downtown Washington, D.C.

Air travel these days isn't exactly the lap of luxury, and it's even worse if the person in the next seat is so overweight he's sitting in your lap. This week, Southwest Airlines refused to let a couple of wide body passengers fly home because they wouldn't buy extra seats for all the space they take up. The airline has been talking about its "people of size" policy for weeks, but don't enforce it -- but didn't enforce it when the two flew from New Mexico to Indianapolis. The brother and sister got home by bus because they couldn't afford the extra seats.

And are more of us going to be going by Greyhound? Joining us now from San Francisco is Marilyn Wann, the author of a book called "Fat, So?"

BEGALA: Marilyn, always good to see you. You should know and our audience should know that several years ago Southwest Airlines was a client of mine in the PR business, and so I want to disclose that, but also let you know that Southwest Airlines, in case you hadn't noticed, sells space, space on its plane. Why shouldn't they charge more to people who use more?

MARILYN WANN, AUTHOR, "FAT, SO?" I think they sell passage from point A to point B. That's what you're paying for. And it's just good business to accommodate passengers. No one is comfortable in coach seating. Tall people, wide people. I think the airlines can do better business if they make us comfy.

BEGALA: Well, that may well be better business, but in fact, Southwest and many other airlines only enforces this policy if the plane is booked full. And so, therefore, what is happening -- and I don't think it's fair...

WANN: Actually, that's not accurate.

BEGALA: ... to oppress (ph) average size people -- actually, it is accurate. I checked today. American, Continental, U.S. Air, Southwest they all say they enforce policies like this only when the plane is booked, so that they don't want to bump somebody because somebody is taking up a seat and a half.

WANN: Southwest is enforcing the policy, and then if the plane isn't booked, they're offering a refund, which I hope people can get. I don't want two seats. I want one seat that fits each passenger.

NOVAK: Marilyn, let me ask you -- just paint a picture for you. Let's say that there is a couple or a man who is -- or a woman who decided to go on a vacation, not a rich person, going on Southwest Airlines economy flight, looking forward to a nice vacation. Goes into the plane and there's a lollapalooza sitting next to him or her slopping over the seat. It's uncomfortable, it's nasty. Can you have a little sympathy for the person who is oppressed by a person that's sitting next to him?

WANN: You mean someone like me who weighs 270 pounds sitting next to you? Frankly, I don't want to touch the passenger next to me anymore than they might want to have to touch me. And I think that if the airlines accommodate everybody, which is just the basic cost of doing business, I would happily give up the packet of peanuts and the free headphones and the magazine -- which I never read anyway -- in order to have a comfortable chair.

BEGALA: Well, so are you saying that they should -- have to redesign the chairs for you? I mean, they are what they are. I don't like them either. They are 18 3/4 inches wide. But that's what they are; that's the industry standard. And I mean, you certainly can't expect them to rip out all their seats to accommodate certain passengers, you know, sizemically (ph) challenged passengers, right?

WANN: I'm not expecting them to change. I'm a fat person, and...

(CROSSTALK)

WANN: I don't expect them to change all the seats. I expect them to get creative. And what really saddens me is that the airline industry has never taken the time to talk to fat Americans and ask us what would work. We want them to make money. We also want to have the right to travel. The family that was kicked off the plane in Indianapolis was in Indiana to attend the funeral of their mother. And I think it's incredibly heartless, this policy being enforced on these people in this manner.

BEGALA: Well, about heartless, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but let me ask you, just the simple fairness. Look, my friend George Stephanopoulos. Great guy. Itty-bitty guy. Shaquille O'Neal, huge giant guy. Guess what? Shaq pays more at the tailor for his clothes than George. He uses more material. It is a simple fact of supply and demand, right?

WANN: I think that -- I pay money for a shirt, someone else pays money for a shirt. And it is the decision of an industry where they start to target people for discrimination. And 60 percent of Americans are fat. I don't think the airlines are going to make money targeting 60 percent of us, plus all of the tall people and those average size people who are no longer comfortable on incredibly small coach airplane seats, because the airlines have just crammed too many chairs into the limited space.

NOVAK: Let me try once more, Marilyn. You're a stubborn person, and I admire you for your stubbornness. Next week I am going to the theater, I want to see "The Little Foxes" by Lillian Hellman -- communist, but I'm a --communist author, but -- one of Paul's favorite people.

WANN: Hey, let's go together.

NOVAK: Yeah. But I -- the seats in that theater are fairly small. If they have what I call a jumbo size person, they're going to have to buy two seats, or I'm going to be very uncomfortable. What applies in a theater, shouldn't that apply on an airplane?

WANN: Actually, theaters have done a really good job of getting creative about accommodating people of all sizes, especially the movie industry. And I think the theater industry is increasingly doing that.

I don't think many theater seats actually have arms that move up or down, but that's one solution. I actually think having different options of widths of seating is a really good way of having everybody get one chair. It is not really my desire to have two chairs. That's kind of humiliating and weird in singling me out. Thin people get one chair. I want one chair.

BEGALA: But, Marilyn, you've got to live in the real world, right? They're not going to rip out all the chairs. Some people do take up an extra seat, and it is not safe, it's not comfortable, it's not fair for the average-sized person sitting next to you, is it?

WANN: It is also not safe, comfortable or fair for the large person, and I'm certainly not talking about ripping out all the seats. I'm talking about making a small accommodation that is reasonable, similar to what is required under the ADA. And it definitely creates the openness of including everyone in our society. We all win.

BEGALA: Marilyn Wann, author of "Fat: So?", joins us from San Francisco. Thank you very much, Marliyn. As always, it's a pleasure.

WANN: Thank you.

BEGALA: Coming up, your chance to "Fireback" at us. You know, yesterday's discussion about dirty language, and particularly my potty-mouth, actually provoked a few G-rated e-mails. We'll share them with you.

And then, there is plenty of foul language when baseball's All- Star Game was ended in a tie this week. On deck, a man who is doing more than just cursing.

And, why on earth would these men risk life and limb to run with the bulls. Bob Novak gives us his answer next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: It had never, ever happened before. But last Tuesday, it did. Baseball's 73rd All-Star Game was halted and declared a tie by Commissioner Bud "Light" Selig with the teams knotted at 7-7 after 11 innings. Selig said both teams had used up all their pitchers. Now, someone who is suing to force the players to return to Milwaukee and play ball. That's someone, radio talk show host Dave Barber joins us from Lansing, Michigan. Mr. Barber, thank you for joining us tonight.

DAVE BARBER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hey, thank you for having me.

NOVAK: Mr. Barber, I understand you're suing for $25,000. What I can't understand, I hope you can explain it, is what in the world is your standing? How has this game, and it was a very good game, cost you any money after you make your claim?

BARBER: First of all, in Michigan court, we have to meet the threshold and we have to seek damages in excess of $35,000. In all actuality, Mr. Novak, my attorney, Mr. Vankirt (ph) and I would very much like to see Major League Baseball come to us from their 30th floor office on Park Avenue and say, "hey, we screwed up, we made a mistake. We're going to give you our solemn oath to finish the game before the end of calendar year 2002. We will finish the game from where it left off," I will absolutely remove the lawsuit tomorrow. NOVAK: I still don't understand how you were damaged. You didn't pay for a ticket for the game. You didn't pay one cent. It didn't cost you anything, did it?

BARBER: That was correct. I was just sitting in my Stratolounger with a couple of adult beverages like millions of other people watching the game. But I am here to tell you this, and your viewers knew this, Ted Williams would be turning over in his grave had his son not put him in the freezer. This is not the way...

(LAUGHTER)

BARBER: Wait a minute. This is not the way baseball or a Major League contest is to end. People expect a winner and a loser. I think the American public and baseball fans worldwide were short- changed.

BEGALA: Well, I disagree with you, Dave. There was a loser. It was Bud "Light." Let me play you a piece of tape from Bud "Light" Selig, the commissioner of baseball, what he said to justify his action and I'll get your response.

BARBER: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUD SELIG, MLB COMMISSIONER: As I quickly reviewed my options, I came to the very painful and extremely difficult conclusion that given the Philadelphia pitcher's physical condition, that I had no choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: No choice. He couldn't let position players pitch. He couldn't let fans pitch, coaches, somebody, just let the game go on.

BARBER: Well, first of all, in watching that clip, my first suggestion would be a new 'do. He needs a new haircut. But let me tell you this. You know, here's the deal. If you run out of pitchers, that's the manager's fault. This is a disgrace. People expect a winner and a loser. This year in Major League Baseball, the average player will make $2.38 million this year in salary. You're telling me after 11 innings, they have got to take their bats and ball and go home and say, I quit. Americans are not quitters.

NOVAK: I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this concept during my show. Explain to me this. I'm a season ticket holder for the Baltimore Orioles. Unlike you, Mr. Barber, I pay to get in games and...

BARBER: What makes you think I don't pay?

NOVAK: I go to a -- well, you just told me you were sitting in your Stratolounger...

BARBER: Well, no, that was for the All-Star Game.

NOVAK: All right. I go to a game, and it's a lousy game, a lot of errors. And I say -- I run into court and say they cheated me out of my money for this game. I am suing you for $35,000. Is that what you mean?

BARBER: Well, let me tell you this, we're not in it for the money. We're asking Major League Baseball to finish the game. And for those people that say, oh, it is an exhibition, it doesn't mean anything, tell that to Pete Rose, who in 1970, went around third base, right at home plate at Ray Fosse, had a huge collision and won the game at home plate; or tell that to the late splendid splinter (ph) Ted Williams, who broke an arm in an exhibition game in the American League.

Let me tell you what, I think these baseball players today are prima donnas. What happened Tuesday night is just a small example of what is wrong with Major League Baseball. They have taken their eye off the prize, the American baseball fan. They have forgotten the people that got them to where they are now. They should be ashamed of themselves. What they did Tuesday night by picking up and quitting is a disgrace.

NOVAK: Mr. Barber, this was -- the All-Star Game this week was not the only major sports event of the world. Every day in Pamplona, Spain, we have the San Fermin Festival, where there is the running of the bulls. Now, several years ago, my son, who is now a father of three -- when he was a 15-year-old boy, he ran every day during the festival. He had a hell of a good time. He even got grazed by a bull, showed the wound to his girlfriends back home in Washington. Now, surely, you can join me in saying this is one of the great events and spectacles in the world, isn't it?

BARBER: Well, let me just say this, the best time that I ever had in Spain was at a nude beach. There's no way I'm going to put my ass in an alley and have a $3,000 bull run at me. I make a enough bad decisions in my life that could cause me pain. I'm certainly not going to do that.

NOVAK: My son -- it's one of the great events of his life, and he still talks about it.

BARBER: Congratulations to your son!

BEGALA: It's a great event, but I could have gone all night without hearing about Dave Barber's nude ass. I'm sorry, Dave, but that's just not an image I need to take home after work tonight. Dave Barber, thank you very for joining us from Lansing, Michigan.

Now, Bob, I gotta...

BARBER: We will prevail.

BEGALA: You -- so your boy was 15 at the running of the bulls. Were you there? Did you...

NOVAK: Oh, yeah. I watched him every morning.

BEGALA: Was your wife there? NOVAK: Yes.

BEGALA: She was OK with it?

NOVAK: No, she wasn't.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: I can imagine. Unbelievable.

OK, next in our "Fireback" segment -- never mind my potty mouth, and there I just did it again -- something that Bob said last night really offended a lot of people. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now for "Fireback," and man, did you fire back this week. A lot of you took umbrage at my potty mouth language in our section on cursing. Nancy Nicholson from Ewing, New Jersey was one of them.

"When I was a substitute teacher in high school," she writes, "I was told to go 'F' myself at least 100 times a day by the students. Without some sort of punishment, there's no way to stop this. It is abusive to be cursed at for six hour a day."

Well, Nancy, you need to never come work on CROSSFIRE, then, if you don't want to be cursed at for six hours a day.

NOVAK: The next e-mail is from Chris Lewis in Norfolk, Virginia, and Chris took objection to what I referred to as the 19 hijackers who killed so many of our fellow Americans.

He said, "Interesting that you would show your disgust to Mr. Begala for his choice of words, like schmuck, while I'm disgusted by your choice of words, like 'handkerchief heads.' I'm not defending the 19 hijackers here, but is this how you feel about Arabs?"

Now, Chris, let me tell you this, that I don't believe there is a single journalist in this town over the last 20 years who has been more positive, more positive for the Palestinian cause and for Arabs. I've caught a lot of heat. One thing you can't say is that I am anti- Arab.

BEGALA: That I can vouch for. We've had enough arguments about Arab-Israeli relations, Bob. I can promise you're not anti-Arab.

Gustavo Santos from Hillside, Jersey says, "The only time I curse is when I'm listening to Paul and his liberal friends talking trash."

Gustavo, I'm glad I am paving the road to perdition for you. That makes my heart sing.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: And Debbie Allen of Madisonville, Kentucky says, "Watching Bob Novak makes me want to pay royalties to the inventor of the mute button."

I tell you -- I tell you what, Debbie. Just shut the damn television off. We don't want you watching.

BEGALA: And also, if you cover your right eye, so you can't see the host over there, it's a lot smarter show, too.

NOVAK: Question from the audience.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, I'm Glenn Kreutz (ph) from Norman, Oklahoma, and I have a question for Paul.

Paul, couldn't Vice President Cheney's comments about Arthur Andersen simply mean they provided the financial management advice in addition to the audits? In other words, perhaps you're inferring incorrectly.

BEGALA: You know, that may be, but when he says over and above the by the books, by the books means literally being careful. But you know what? He should answer that question. You're right. He owes us an answer. He has never spoken out on this. He is running away from this like the devil runs from holy water, and somebody ought to get him and ask him some questions.

NOVAK: He also -- he also said that when he was a private citizen, long before he was vice president.

BEGALA: Ripping off the shareholders there.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, Suzy Proukha (ph) from Midland, Texas. And my question is, Southwest Airline charges double for overweight passengers. Will they ever start undercharging for skinny people? Shouldn't it be fair for all size and type of people?

NOVAK: No, because the skinny people only get one seat. I don't think you can get two skinny people in one seat. Even from Midland and Odessa.

BEGALA: That's a good point. Midland, they got a lot of skinny people. Yes, sir.

NOVAK: Go ahead. Speak up.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: ...from Washington, D.C. I have a question about the recent attacks against the Bush Administration as to whether or not you feel it is an exaggerated attempt to put a crack in the stronghold of Bush Administration with their support and public opinion.

NOVAK: Yes, let me explain that to you, because people like Paul and James, all they know is the politics of personal destruction, and they will attack, attack, attack, attack, because they don't have any issues on their side.

BEGALA: Let me can explain to you the difference, as I tried to with Bob Walker. It is a personal attack to say that a man is a bad husband, the way they said about Bill Clinton. That is personal. It's none of your business, none of my business. It is my business if the president, who says he's going to clean up corporate America, was in fact engaging in the same corrupt practices, allegedly, that he's trying to police. That's the difference. That's a legitimate issue, and I'm never going to get off it.

NOVAK: Do we have time for one more question?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: ...Mt. Vernon, Illinois...

BEGALA: I'm sorry, we don't have time. I'm sorry to do that to you.

From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins immediately after a CNN "News Alert."

Good night.

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