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CNN Crossfire
Former President Takes Shots at George W. Bush; How Can Mining Become Safer?
Aired July 29, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight, the mouth that roared, the miners who lived and the guys who got caught with their pants down. But first, we're zipping right along to the best political briefing in television -- it's the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The Democratic Leadership Council has opened its second-guess Al Gore seminar, otherwise known as its annual meeting in New York. Thanks to a strategically placed scheduling conflict, Mr. Gore is not attending, and that's too bad. He missed former running mate Joe Lieberman's assessment that Gore hurt the 2000 ticket by lurching into the populous mode, rather than sticking to the DLC's centrist, pro- business principles.
As for wiggling out of his promise not to run in 2004 if Gore does, reporter asked Lieberman what he would do if Democratic presidential candidates run traditional, anti-business campaigns. Lieberman replied, "that's an alluring question that I'm not going to answer." Thank you, senator, you just did.
How weasely is that? From a man of integrity. Come on.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, at least the coverage of that meeting was a classic Democratic firing squad, where they formed a circle and they attacked each other. There are enough bad guys out there...
CARLSON: Isn't it great?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I hate that. It drives me crazy. Bruce Reed, the head of the DLC today, was in the paper today actually criticizing a Republican. Thank you, Bruce Reed, my hero.
On the House floor Friday night, over 200 House Democrats along with just 10 brave Republicans were pushing through an amendment by Democrat Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut to punish Benedict Arnold corporations that move their headquarters to the sun-drenched beaches of Bermuda or the Caymans to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. Well, when the GOP leadership realized they couldn't beat the Democrats, all of a sudden, 100 Republicans who had voted to defend the corporate traitors suddenly switched sides and voted with the reformers. The stunning event left embittered corporate lobbyists for firms that have fled to Bermuda to avoid the taxes wondering, whatever happened to loyalty.
CARLSON: See, Paul, only you, demented partisan that you are, could spin this that way. Here the House votes with Republican support, vast Republican support to end off-shore tax havens, and all of a sudden it's is something terrible Republicans did?
BEGALA: Days after voting to save them, and minutes after voting again to save them, they switched sides. Why?
CARLSON: So they did it, so it's not good enough?
BEGALA: Why? They switched. Why?
CARLSON: They voted that way.
BEGALA: It's an election year, that's why.
CARLSON: Right. We're about to make history tonight on CROSSFIRE, but first some background. Just a week ago, many Democrats were delighted to place blame for the falling stock market squarely on George W. Bush. One of those Democrats, not surprisingly, works on this very show. Here is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: In fact, when President Bush went to give his much- ballyhooed speech on Wall Street on Tuesday, ever helpful White House aides told "The Washington Post" before the speech, they were hoping for a stock market rally. Market dropped 50 points in the 27 minutes he spoke, and since he began that speech, it's down 469 points. I mean, how does this guy inspire confidence when he is tanking the markets every time he opens his mouth?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: So we'll sum up. In other words, the president is responsible for the behavior of the stock markets. Fair enough. The market gained more than 440 points today, just as it did last Wednesday, for a jaw-dropping, record-setting 936 points in two sessions. Now the history-making moment we promised. Paul Begala will admit live and for the first time that he is completely, verifiably wrong, and that George W. Bush is, in fact, responsible for the market's recovery. Take it away, Paul.
BEGALA: George W. Bush promised he would give a speech to rally the markets. While he gave that speech, the markets tanked. The markets recovered today. Why? Bush shut up. And he said he's going on vacation. If he resigns, the Dow would go to 20,000. That's the strategy, Mr. President.
CARLSON: That's demented!
BEGALA: No.
CARLSON: First of all, the idea that a president of any kind can bolster stock market, Clinton, Bush or anybody, is wrong and you know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, no, I'm just holding the White House to their pledge. They told "The Washington Post," we're going to give a big speech, it will rally the markets. I just watched the markets that day.
CARLSON: He can't win either way with you, can he?
BEGALA: No, he shouldn't set himself up. Actually, he should follow Clinton's proposals, which is to have long-term fiscal policy.
CARLSON: Brag about yourself for eight years?
BEGALA: Twenty-eight million new jobs.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Which model do you want?
BEGALA: Well, I'll tell you what, I'd still rather have a president that hits on interns than drives drunk.
The corporate scandals are already having an impact in the 2002 elections. In a New Hampshire Senate race, Congressman John Sununu is under fire for accepting $20,000 from corporations under investigation, including WorldCom and Arthur Andersen. Democratic Governor Jeanne Shaheen was able to claim the high ground, announcing she had actually turned down a $2,000 check from WorldCom. Sununu told the "Manchester Union Leader" it would be, quote, "wrong to suggest any CEO of any company should be looked at with suspicion." Sununu apparently doesn't judge a CEO by his criminal conduct, by the size, instead, of his campaign donations.
CARLSON: Notice this is a story that has not a single reference to the positions of either candidate who are up to run a state. Second, to claim that Jeanne Shaheen claimed the high ground is laughable to anybody who's ever covered New Hampshire politics, and third, she's going to lose.
BEGALA: First, Sununu took the money from the crooks. Second, he defended the crooks. Third, that's a lesson, he can be bought.
CARLSON: A million people took that money, and you know it.
BEGALA: Well, she turned it down. Good for her.
CARLSON: And speaking of people who took money, with Jim Traficant on his way to prison, House Democrats have been looking for a replacement, a fellow Democrat who can be counted on to rant in a way that is both offensive and demented. The search may be over. Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney was the obvious choice all along. Earlier this spring, the Georgia Democrat accused President Bush of conspiring with the September 11 terrorists in a plot to kill Americans for profit. A couple of years ago, she accused Al Gore of being a stone cold racist. Now she's compared her opponent in the Democratic primary to the Inglewood police officer who is accused of beating a handcuffed teenager.
Cynthia McKinney is filling Traficant's shoes well so far. All she needs is a hair piece and a sense of humor, and the two will be indistinguishable.
BEGALA: She got a tough primary down there in Georgia, too.
CARLSON: But she doesn't have the hair piece.
BEGALA: Well, maybe she'll get to work on that.
I traveled to the 6th District of Pennsylvania this weekend to check out another campaign. That district stretches from the edge of Philadelphia all the way to Reading, Pennsylvania. Could be a key district in determining control of the House of Representatives this fall. The district was created for State Senator Jim Gerlach, a Republican. But Democratic nominee, Dan Wofford, is coming on strong. Wofford is the son of the legendary senator and my former boss, Harris Wofford, and he told me his door-to-door campaigning shows him the folks are very angry and they're anxious and they're looking for change.
Wofford told me about one house in particular in which he was nearly attacked by a pit bull, but said the dog was angry at having lost his 401(k)-9. Wofford's joke, not mine. A guy with a sense of humor like that deserves to be in the House.
CARLSON: But you know what? Jokes like that he's not going to win. But you know, if he was a Republican, Paul, you would say, well, his father, as you say, his daddy has the same name, so people would think -- I mean, good for Dan Wofford if he's going to win.
BEGALA: But the difference is, the Republican jokes become law; Danny's jokes would just be (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: But the difference is, if a man runs with his father's last man, you ought to judge him for who he is and not attack him for his father's sins, real or perceived.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Or, we should judge him on, say, his insider trading and his drunk driving and the rest of his sordid past.
For months, as one business scandal after another has rocked the nation's economy, the Bush's bottom line has been -- well, it's not our fault, blame Bill Clinton. Well, the former president, who led us through a record-setting eight years of prosperity, is finally getting a little tired of taking the rap for Bush's failings. So during an interview with WJLA Television in Washington, he finally let W. have it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: There was corporate malfeasance both before he took office and after. The difference is, I actually tried to do something about it, and their party stopped it. And one of the people who stopped our attempt to stop Enron accounting was made chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. That is a fact, an indisputable fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: The SEC chairman President Clinton was referring to, of course, is Harvey Pitt. Stepping into the CROSSFIRE now, Democratic consultant and former Gore campaign manager, Donna Brazile, and with her, Tony Blankley, editorial page editor for "The Washington Times" and former spokesman for Newt Gingrich.
Thank you very much, nice to see you. The two best dressers in Washington too, by the way.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That was really one of the undersung achievements of the Gore campaign, employing (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But Donna, nobody expected, you know, there's been this 200-year gentlemen agreement not to snipe at a president by the current -- by the former president. Nobody's surprised that Clinton broke it, not being a gentleman. But what I was struck by and I bet you were struck by too was how perfectly crafted his whining was. These were perfect paragraphs. In other words, these were things he has been rehearsing in front of the mirror, he's been thinking about a lot. You know him; he's a very tormented soul, isn't he?
DONNA BRAZILE, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: I think former President Clinton, the last elected president of the United States...
CARLSON: You know, he thinks that. How sad.
BRAZILE: ... was a remarkable leader. Here is a guy and an administration who took this country down the road of prosperity, across a bridge of high deficits that were accrued during those Republican years. And you know what? Martha & the Vandellas said it right, "don't mess with Bill." Bill Clinton was tired of being demonized by the Republicans. Every time they get in trouble, blame Bill. When it came to see how to get the country -- to get back together, blame Bill. When the Middle East is in turmoil, blame Bill. So he stood up, he fought back and he did the right thing.
CARLSON: OK, well, nobody -- this was -- I have to admit -- perfectly Clintonian. But I want to play you a line that I'm putting on here on CROSSFIRE because I want people to remember this for posterity. This is megalomania at its height. This is former President Bill Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Well, you know, we've got to break this mentality that people can take the money and run. That it's all right for big investors on the board of records or managers to take big gains and for ordinary investors and ordinary employees to get the shaft. That's not why I tried to create millionaires when I was president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: You saw Tom Selleck standing there behind him. I guess the part that really offended me is "that's not why I tried to create millionaires."
Now, if you made a lot of money during the Clinton years, going and getting up early, going to work, working hard. And here this semi-employed former president gets on, tries to take credit for your success, how offensive is that?
BRAZILE: He took credit for his administration balancing the budget. Look, when he got in office too, I think they had a deficit of $279 billion. He left office, and George Bush is one lucky dude. I mean, after all, he inherited a $5.3 trillion surplus. He's thrown half of it down the drain with an irresponsible tax cut.
So, what Bill Clinton and Al Gore tried to do was to right the wrong of the Reagan-Bush years. And they didn't blame Ronald Reagan and George Bush for the deficit. They got in there, rolled up their sleeves.
(CROSSTALK)
They got in -- play the tape -- they got in there, rolled up their sleeves...
TONY BLANKLEY, "WASHINGTON TIMES": If the economy is stupid, then they talk that whole campaign. And the whole campaign...
BRAZILE: That was an election. That was an election.
BLANKLEY: And then they started complaining about the conditions of the economy.
BRAZILE: Tony, but they got in there and they rolled up their...
BLANKLEY: ... even though there was a 5.7 percent growth in the fourth quarter of the last Bush term. Of course, they didn't. In fact, almost all presidents, my old boss Reagan included, Jack Kennedy complained about Eisenhower. There is a tradition in America of sitting presidents complaining about the past. There's very little tradition of past presidents criticizing the sitting president. The only other one I can think of who has done that is Jimmy Carter, who has been bipartisan.
BRAZILE: But you have the president -- you have the president today -- well, go ahead, Paul. I'm a good Democrat. I'm going to let you go.
BEGALA: Let me just ask you -- let me just say thanks for coming on. Congratulations on the new gig.
BLANKLEY: Thank you.
BEGALA: Tony's the editorial page editor of the "Washington Times." I hope and trust you'll move them from deeply psychotic to merely neurotic. But I'm a subscriber and I enjoy the paper, and I enjoy it more with you running it.
BLANKLEY: Good. We appreciate the quarter every day. Thank you.
BEGALA: But, as someone like me, like all of us who stretches the First Amendment to the limit as we should in our free exercise of free speech, where is it that says a former president should surrender his First Amendment right?
BLANKLEY: It doesn't. The president has every right to say anything he wants. The question is what will the affect be currently and on history. And Jimmy Carter has made the decision from time to time to make criticisms. I don't think it has hurt him too much in the general population. Maybe Bill Clinton's criticisms will work for him.
I have a hunch though that you and I are fighting in the '90s, and it was a partisan period. And I think that sort of stopped September 11. And those politicians, whether in office now or in the past, who are still kind of playing the old game that you and I were punching back and forth for a decade on, I don't think that rings well with the public. So, the danger for the president is -- the former president is that this may not sit well.
The potential advantages, he may be able to reshape the way people think about his presidency. I think normally, though, history judges a president by how he performed when he was in office, not about what he said about it afterwards. Nixon didn't help himself by trying to redefine the Nixon presidency. And I have a hunch that Clinton...
BRAZILE: Tony, you're filibustering here.
BLANKLEY: I'm filibustering.
BEGALA: No, no. It's a good answer. I just disagreed with it.
Actually, let me give you a piece of history though. There is a difference between defense and offense, right? I think President Clinton clearly was defending his record against attacks. When President Clinton was in the first two years of his term, former President Bush, who he beat like a bad piece of meat, again and again and again came out and attacked Clinton on the offense. Let me give you some examples.
First, when we were at war in Somalia, by the way, an effort that Clinton inherited, a debacle he inherited from old man Bush, here is what Bush Sr. had to say: "In Somalia, U.S. soldiers felt like they were helping to save the lives of these pathetic, starving children -- Bush said -- and I just hope that we don't get that mission messed up now." He messed it up. He left the mess in Clinton's lap. BLANKLEY: Well, wait a second. That's not criticizing. That doesn't even mention Clinton. All it says is he hopes that we don't mess it up. He didn't say they had messed it up.
BEGALA: Let's try again then. On health care, he said: "This may sound partisan, but I don't believe -- Clinton's plan -- will pass and I don't believe it should pass." There, you see, he is lobbying against...
BLANKLEY: That's not lobbying...
BEGALA: ... the president, certainly expressing his opinion against the president's health care plan. He went on on the economy, something that he fouled up and Clinton did a great job on, saying: "Bush said the economy was growing when he left office and he would be doing far better now than it is now if he had been re-elected." It was growing as he left office because people were glad he was leaving office.
BLANKLEY: No, no. It was actually -- it was growing before the election at 5.7 percent growth in the fourth quarter of 1992.
BEGALA: All of that growth came actually after the election. It came in late November/December, when people knew he was getting out. But here is Bush attacking Clinton.
(CROSSTALK)
BLANKLEY: As I said earlier, I think the president has every right to to say whatever he wants. He has to take his chances with the public and with history. I've found, although, it's kind of fun, I've been looking -- your producer sent me the transcript of the former president's statement. I just love it. There is one that is the classic. He said, "I didn't blame his father for Somalia when we had that awful day memorialized in 'Black Hawk Down.' I didn't do that," which is a correct statement.
On the other hand, it happened during Clinton's administration. And because there was a request by the ground commander to have heavy cover and Les Aspin, then Clinton's secretary of defense refused to give it, you had then that disaster. Les Aspin was forced to resigned shortly thereafter. So, here you have Clinton denying that he picked on Bush during -- when, in fact, it was his own presidency that he was not commenting on.
CARLSON: Excellent. Excellent point.
BLANKLEY: You know, I mean, it is just sort of a classic non sequitur.
CARLSON: Now, Donna, wait, hold on, if that wasn't embarrassing enough in -- I know you're embarrassed by that and his failure -- in Rwanda and throughout...
BRAZILE: I'm not embarrassed. I am not embarrassed.
CARLSON: But let me show you. This -- I want to hit you with something current that's even more...
BRAZILE: I'm embarrassed at 1.6 million Americans have lost their job and this president is failing to support those Americans who need an extension of unemployment benefits. I'm ashamed of the fact that this administration came to the table late after Enron, Tyco, WorldCross (sic) to start pushing corporate responsibility. That's called a late-light conversion...
CARLSON: Donna, and at a time like this...
BRAZILE: So, that's what I'm ashamed of.
CARLSON: ... when people are concerned about the economy, I wonder if taxpayers want to take a $3.5 million hit to pay for legal bills that Mr. and Mrs. Clinton accrued during their time in office, considering over the last year and a half, they've made more than $20 million. So why don't you explain to me why taxpayers should pay $3.5 million for their legal bills?
BRAZILE: Well, look, I believe that if we paid Ronald Reagan's legal bills, we paid...
CARLSON: $500,000.
BRAZILE: ... George W. Bush legal bills...
CARLSON: $200,000.
BRAZILE: ... then we should pay Bill Clinton's legal bills. Fair is fair.
CARLSON: Why for some rich guy?
BRAZILE: And why...
BEGALA: That's what the statute says.
BRAZILE: That's the statute. That the law.
CARLSON: So, take advantage of it because it is there.
BEGALA: We're going to have to go to a break right now. Hang on just a second, Tony Blankley, Donna Brazile. We'll be right back in a minute. I'm going to ask Tony, one of the smartest political minds I know, a very simple political question: Who would have won in the year 2000 if Bill Clinton had run against George W. Bush?
Then, later, we've all seen those incredible pictures, but what needs to be done to prevent near tragedies like the one we saw in Pennsylvania.
And our "Quote of the Day" is rated PG for language. Considering the source, though, that's no surprise. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're talking about former President Bill Clinton's latest loss of self-control, a pouty little tirade aimed at President Bush. In the CROSSFIRE tonight, Democratic consultant and former Gore campaign manager Donna Brazile. Also, "Washington Times" editorial page editor Tony Blankley.
BEGALA: Tony, I promised you before the break, if we didn't have that awful 22nd Amendment put in so there would be no more FDRs, we would have another FDR, wouldn't we? Clinton would have beat Bush like a bad piece of meat.
BLANKLEY: Well, I don't think about a bad piece a meat, but I don't have any doubt that -- or little doubt that he would have won. I mean, because he's a great politician and Gore was a terrible politician. Gore didn't run on what was available as the incumbents record. I think that's -- I can't imagine any other way to analyze it, can you?
BRAZILE: But that's the reason why Gore received 500,000 more votes than George W. Bush, and he also got 50 million Americans to agree that he was...
BLANKLEY: He got them in the wrong place though.
BRAZILE: ... not just a good politician, but he was a great leader who had real ideas that he took to the American people. And let me just tell you, Tony, 6 million Americans were disenfranchised during that presidential campaign. Can you imagine if their voices were heard during the political process?
BLANKLEY: Six million people weren't disenfranchised. This was a claim that was made that has not been authenticated. The "Washington Post," all the news outlets went down there and recounted Florida how many times. They never found anything to suggest that the election returns would have been any different than the way they are. But these numbers sort of get thrown out and then they become mythology.
BRAZILE: But they also never found all the ballots. They never found all of the ballots that were cast as well.
BLANKLEY: And we never looked at all the states -- keep in mind, we never...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: OK, go ahead.
BLANKLEY: If you were going to do a complete national recount, as opposed to just the places where Gore thought he was doing better, you might have found an awful lot of votes in Chicago and other places where Democrats control areas, there might have been real Republican votes. So, you can't measure just counting targeted Gore counties in Florida and saying that that net result is what the total national election would be. We didn't have a national recount.
BRAZILE: But these were statistically designed ballots that MIT and others, no Democratic outfit. It came from MIT and Cal Tech.
BEGALA: But let me show you -- this is why, because I do agree with your point, and I don't know if you do, but Gore should have claimed more of that Clinton/Gore record. And here is how Clinton defended the record just the other day in this interview with Rebecca Cooper from WJLA. Just the facts, ma'am, as Joe Friday used to say. Let me show you, Tony Blankley, on the big screen our former president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Actually, I have a clear and unbroken record of trying to clear up a lot of these corporate abuses. We started back in '98 warning about the accounting problems. And when my Securities and Exchange Commissioner tried to stop the Enron accounting practice of accountants being the consultants, the other party stopped us and their main lobbyist was Harvey Pitt, who is now head of the SEC.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now that's a simple statement of fact, right?
BLANKLEY: Well, look, first of all, it's an incomplete quote of what everything he said. What he also said was the Republicans in the Congress blocked him. And, of course, the leading people who blocked him was Senator Lieberman, Senator Dodd...
BEGALA: Actually, they were in support of that bill.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: It was Senator Gramm and it was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Oxley in the House.
BLANKLEY: Yes, and Senator Dodd...
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: And it was a Republican-controlled Congress.
BLANKLEY: I knew you were going to do this. We got a letter from the Columbia Law Journalism Review. Senator Lieberman, and this is the FASB, and then they have Senator Dodd.
BEGALA: This is the Financial Accounting Standards Board.
BLANKLEY: And Senator Dodd was the one who led the fight. They're both from Connecticut. We understand the politics. Connecticut is the home of accounting. That's why the two Democratic senators from Connecticut...
BRAZILE: They were caught -- they were...
BLANKLEY: That's why 20 Democratic senators voted to override Clinton's veto. It was a bipartisan decision. CARLSON: If I could just bring us to the present on Joe Lieberman, that was with a mistake he made. I think you'll agree with that. But he's getting better. For instance, he has just explained one of the reasons that Gore lost. Lieberman has turned against Gore. Now Lieberman's critique is, as you well know as someone who ran Gore's campaign was, he played to the tired old left-wing strategies and he lost. Do you agree? Do you think Lieberman is right to disown Gore now?
BRAZILE: Well, first of all, again, I believe that Al Gore and Joe Lieberman both won the election.
CARLSON: I know your fantasy, right.
BRAZILE: That's not a fantasy, that's real. Got more votes and the proof is in the pudding. The second thing is...
BLANKLEY: The proof is in the White House.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Wait, let me ask you this really quick. We're almost out of time, Donna.
BRAZILE: The lucky man -- the lucky man is in the White House. Let's...
CARLSON: Donna, we're almost out of time. Are you going to work for him again? Are you going to work for Al Gore again?
BRAZILE: Let's go back...
CARLSON: You don't want to answer.
BRAZILE: I strongly disagree that we ran the wrong message. We had the right message, the right messenger. But let me just tell you...
BLANKLEY: The wrong country.
BRAZILE: Next time, we'll put it all together...
CARLSON: Try it in Sweden. It may work.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's true. We needed a country where Chief Justice Rehnquist could not steal the election. Tony, sorry, we need a democracy.
(CROSSTALK)
Tony Blankley from the Republican Party, Donna Brazile from the Democratic Party. We have a democracy. We have a guy who gets the most votes wins.
Well, still ahead, that dangerous job that keeps your lights on.
And later, a TV show you definitely do not want to be on. And, no, we're not talking about CROSSFIRE. The question is, should anyone be forced to be on this show?
But next, one of our regulars scores again, the "Quote of the Day." You don't want to miss this one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Tomorrow is sentencing day for expelled but hardly repentant Congressman James A. Traficant. What could be a preview of what he'll tell the judge, Traficant called into the Don Imus radio show this morning, supplying us with our "Quote of the Day." And we only had to bleep it once. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES TRAFICANT, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: What's happened to America? Does anyone know we fear our government? Well, I'm going to tell you something, the IRS and the FBI, I'll tell you what, they go (EXPLETIVE DELETED) themselves. That's exactly the way I feel.
DON IMUS, HOST: That will probably be enough of James Traficant, who clearly has been drinking this morning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Of course, that bleeped word was audit, right. They can go audit themselves.
CARLSON: But you know what, I mean, for a drunk guy, I think he ought to have more courage and come on our show. We keep -- this is a man who is about to go to prison, experience the terrors of the prison shower and is still too afraid to come on CROSSFIRE. We extend our invitation once more.
BEGALA: Absolutely. He went on Don Imus, who I love, but who's a very tough interviewer. We're patty cake with him. We love you, Jim. Come back to us, Jim.
CARLSON: Did you say tough interviewer?
BEGALA: Don Imus spends his life trying to get you to ruin...
CARLSON: He's a suck-up. Are you proud...
BEGALA: ... your life. No, and I've done that myself on his show.
CARLSON: He's a suck-up to power.
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
Well, next, CNN's Connie Chung is going to tell us about Allen Iverson's latest defensive moves in court.
And also, the head of a union that's cleaned up its act talks about the chances of cleaning up mine safety.
And later, some guys who definitely did not want to be in the spotlight. Will their fate discourage others? Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington, D.C.
As we've all just been reminded, coal mining is really dangerous work. Forty-two coal miners died on the job last year. A generation ago, the annual death toll was in the hundreds. But from 1900 to 1945, at least 1,000 miners died every year. Next in the CROSSFIRE, United Mine Workers President Cecil Roberts, who joins us here.
BEGALA: Cecil, thank you for joining us, sir.
CECIL ROBERTS, PRESIDENT, UNITED MINE WORKERS OF AMERICA: Thank you.
BEGALA: I just want you to describe for me first what it is like to go in the mine. And then when a disaster like that hits, the press accounts I saw said that the miners, the nine men who were trapped, made a critical decision that saved their lives. That was a decision to stay together. How is it that these guys, first off, have the courage to go down, and then second, have the presence of mind and the camaraderie to stick together to save each other?
ROBERTS: In some ways, you're answering the question by asking the question. You know, as I mentioned to you before, coal miners think we're all crazy to come to Washington, drive on this Beltway. So, they kind of have the same view of us as we do of what they do for a living.
I was a coal miner for six years. Once you get over that initial trip into that environment is the hardest part of this. There are people who go to work in a coal mine, look inside, say, I quit, I'm not doing this. There are other people who might make half a shift or a shift and quit. So, it is the initial trip into that strange environment that is very foreign to all of us that is the most difficult thing to overcome.
I had nightmares for probably a month. But once I overcame that, I think I had the best job in the world. The camaraderie that you mention is what draws people to mining. The other thing I can compare this with is when I was in Vietnam and in the infantry. It is a similar situation. You got to depend on the person to the right of you, the person to the left of you. This becomes your extended family. And it is absolutely correct that these courageous nine men, quite frankly, had to save their own lives first. But their initial thinking as to what they needed to do in order for others to save their lives later. Had they not acted in a unit together and solidarity together, they would have perished. BEGALA: This is dangerous work, as Tucker pointed out in introducing you; 42 miners killed in the last year alone, 13 in one explosion in Alabama.
ROBERTS: That's grim.
BEGALA: You know, we think it is great that it is not a thousand like it was 50 years ago, but why, still in the 21st century, is it such a dangerous job?
ROBERTS: When people ask me about health and safety now, I say, well, it is much, much better than it was 100 years ago. It's better than it was 50 years ago. It's somewhat better than it was 25 years ago, but it's still not good enough. The only thing that protects miners is the law. The 1969 Coal Mine Health and Safety Act demonstrated that. There has been 9,000 fewer people killed in the coal mines when you do the statistical analysis of that act after the act's passage and the 25 years leading up to it. So, yes, the only answer to mine health and safety, in my opinion, is the law and strict enforcement of that law. And we've been an advocate for that for 112 years now and quite proud of that.
CARLSON: Not to belittle the effect of good laws, but in the interviews I read, virtually everyone interviewed attributed the safe return of these miners to God. Everybody said that, at least in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
ROBERTS: So did I.
CARLSON: You did, too.
ROBERTS: Absolutely.
CARLSON: Is this a particularly religious community, miners?
ROBERTS: Coal miners are all strong believers in God, whether they're Catholic or whether they're Baptists. When you go underground, you cannot work underground without having a strong belief in God. I compared this miracle to right behind Moses parting the Red Sea because the odds of these miners surviving has had to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1. But everything fell in place so perfectly, and it was divine intervention many in my opinion.
But we're not talking about this particular situation. We're talking about mine health and safety. The question was asked about the overall protection of coal miners in the United States. And once again, it's going to have to be the law and strict enforcement of the law.
CARLSON: I mean, everybody likes -- they're like firemen. Coal miners are like firemen. I mean, everybody likes -- who doesn't like coal miners? But there is this movement among environmental groups against coal, giving coal a bad name, a dirty name. So, the propaganda makes coal miners sound like tobacco executives or something. Do you fear there won't be any coal miners 20 years from now? ROBERTS: One of the things we all need to come to grips with is if you look at the way mechanization has taken over coal mining, there are fewer and fewer miners each year because coal mining is a highly productive environment. And we no longer shovel coal into a hand core. You have long walls, you have huge surface mounds, you have continuous miners. So, productivity has gone up here every year. We're the Saudi Arabia of coal in the world. We have enough coal to fill our energy needs for the next 300 years. And we've been a strong voice and a strong advocate for that. But we also have been a strong voice and a strong advocate for doing it very safely and environmentally sound.
BEGALA: Well, let me get -- can I draw this out from you, because believe me, I'm a first-class chicken when it comes to stuff like this. No chance of me ever going into a coal mine and I suspect most of our audience is that way. What is it like? These men, for example, are a mile and a half from the entrance to the mine...
ROBERTS: That's correct.
BEGALA: ... when they broke through the wall and the water came pouring -- even before the wall collapses. What is it like in there?
ROBERTS: Well, let me say this, that sounds like a long ways, but if this occurred in Alabama, there would have been no hope to save these men.
BEGALA: Where that explosion killed 13...
ROBERTS: This was last year when 13 men perished in an explosion on September 23, right after September 11 tragedy in New York. The mines in Alabama are 2,000 feet straight down, and then you go four miles back underground. That's where these men were in Alabama last year when the explosion took place and we lost 13 lives there. Had a terrible ending to that story. But because these men were about 240 some feet straight down, you could reach them by drilling down. And I must say this...
BEGALA: It has got to be pitch black. I mean, is there like lights on the walls or I mean, the reinforcements...
(CROSSTALK)
ROBERTS: First of all, we need to come to grips with what happened here. It was a miracle that these men survived the initial encounter with this water, because this was more like a flash flood underground that reached from the floor to the ceiling and the roof. At one point in time, these miners had their necks like this right against the roof, and that was all that -- and the water was still rising.
So they had the presence of mind to hold on to each other until the water receded somewhat. But the people on the ground should be given a lot of credit. Whoever determined where to drill that initial air passage probably saved these miners' life by pumping in the air -- and warm air at that, allowing them have oxygen. And then, as the water came down, they drilled right beside that and it went right to the location where these guys were. We have some wonderful mine health and safety experts in the United States of America, and I wanted to say that.
BEGALA: And yet, I do have to say, President Bush, who got the votes of coal miners in West Virginia, carried West Virginia, is proposing to cut the Mine Safety Health Administration.
ROBERTS: There is a 6 percent cut proposed by the Bush administration in MSHA's budget. As always, we've been over in Congress lobbying hard on behalf of union and non-union miners to protect their interests, and we think in Congress we'll be able to rectify that.
CARLSON: And somehow I think it will pass now.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, President Bush watches every night, so he's seeing you tonight. Cecil Roberts, head of the Mine Workers Union, thank you very much.
Still ahead, your chance to fire back at us. And one of our viewers has a comment about what we've gotten as a result of putting an MBA in the White House.
But next, hookers and the men who hire them, and a channel you don't want your children tuning into. Now your husbands -- you know, wives may think that's a different story. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back. You know, last Thursday a new program premiered on a Denver cable access channel. It's called "john's TV" and it shows the mugshots of 11 men convicted of soliciting prostitution. Their pictures are also on the city's Web site. Cities of Orlando, Charlotte and Calgary have similar programs to discourage prostitution by publicly shaming the guys who get caught with their pants down. Literally.
By the way, Denver is also the headquarters of Qwest Communications, the phone company that's just admitted cooking the books to the tune of over $1 billion. Are they putting the wrong guys on TV here, or is it just me?
Denver City Attorney Wallace Wortham joins us now from our San Francisco bureau. Mr. Wortham, thank you very much for joining us on CROSSFIRE.
WALLACE WORTHAM, DENVER CITY ATTORNEY: Good evening.
CARLSON: Now, we know something about television ratings here at CROSSFIRE, and I know a desperate attempt to appeal to the public's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) interests when I see one, and "john's TV" is just that. That's what this is about, isn't it? You know people are going to want to watch it, so you put it on? WORTHAM: Absolutely not. John's TV is a response to demands by neighborhood residents and business owners to aggressively seek to root out prostitution and solicitation for prostitution in their neighborhood.
BEGALA: Mr. Wortham, though, why not -- that's all well and good, and I suppose I could be for shame and public humiliation as much as the next guy -- after all, I work on cable television. But why not expand it? Why not these goofballs from Qwest who allegedly cooked the books? Why not insider traders? Why not drunk drivers? Why not Bush and Cheney? I don't know. Just other people we need to shame and humiliate.
WORTHAM: If the city of Denver had the jurisdiction to humiliate people at Qwest, based on the allegations that you've just raised, we would certainly do that. But unfortunately, that's not our purview.
CARLSON: OK. Well, let's talk about something that is your purview. What about child molesters? What bout rapists? I guess the point here is, people soliciting prostitutes are really at the lower end of the threat scale here, whereas child molesters, I would say, are right near the top. Why not put them on the tube?
WORTHAM: Well, it's a question of visibility. And the visibility that we're talking about are the children who live in this neighborhood actually seeing solicitation for sex, seeing sexual encounters, finding condoms in the alley, and the residents actually having people have sex in their backyards. So it's about the visibility that this solution has been shaped for this particular problem.
BEGALA: Well, here of course in Washington, D.C., no one had sex since the Clinton administration left town, so we don't have that problem in anybody's backyard, but why not, like Orlando, where they broadcast the pictures of the hookers as well. Apparently, Denver will just put the guys on there. Isn't this discrimination against our gender, Mr. Wortham?
WORTHAM: Oh, without question, it is not discrimination. There are two clear reasons for that. One to put the pictures of the hookers on would, in fact, be providing free advertising for the hookers.
BEGALA: Well, quality service and a low cost, I mean, that's the free market, right?
WORTHAM: No, that's not the quality of life or the culture that people in Denver are about. And the second...
CARLSON: I mean, -- oh, sorry, go ahead, Mr. Wortham.
WORTHAM: The second reason is that I think that we take a more humane approach about the plight of these women who have to sell their bodies. Oftentimes, they're suffering from physical and mental disabilities. So we've taken the approach that we should provide social services to them. And if we deter the guys, the women won't have business and they won't be in the business.
CARLSON: Wait a second. So the poor oppressed hooker class gets all the generosity of the taxpayers of Denver. But some poor married guy, who's drunk and lonely, his wife is out of town, has his marriage destroyed...
BEGALA: Hypothetically speaking, of course.
CARLSON: Settle down, Paul. I think, you know, look, the problem here that strikes me is for a relatively low grade crime you're potentially destroying someone's entire family.
WORTHAM: Wow, you really have it absolutely wrong. What you're saying is that the john and his family are victims and you're ignoring the fact that the victims are the people who live in the neighborhood. What if they were having sex...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What about the children of the men who were busted doing this? You think some 8-year-old should be allowed to see his father as a convicted john? I mean, that's appalling, isn't it?
WORTHAM: No, it isn't, because his father should think about that before he goes on Colefax (ph). The obligation -- give me a minute here. The responsibility is on the father. It's not the city's responsibility to make sure that he acts responsibly as it relates to his family.
BEGALA: I do agree with that, but let me come back to where we started. Why not say drunk drivers, which kill 50,000 people a year, why not other people who could use a little bit of humiliation therapy? Why just the most sort of relatively victimless crime?
WORTHAM: Well, it's not relatively victimless, but it goes to the visibility. If we had drunk drivers congregated in a single block or three blocks or six blocks on the street, we would take an action appropriate to deter them from that specific area.
So, this is area-specific. We know that they won't be there. We've already gotten reports from people who have been arrested and convicted who said that they're not coming back to this area. We've gotten reports from prostitutes who work the area who said that business has been busted because these guys don't want to lose their families.
CARLSON: I bet that's -- Paul Begala just told me he's never going to Denver again. I bet it's going to hurt tourism. Mr. Wortham, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it.
WORTHAM: Thank you.
CARLSON: Thanks.
Next, your chance to fire back at us. One of our viewers has a suggestion to tell which way the economy is going. And it will give Dick Cheney something else to do. We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: If you'd like to fire back at CROSSFIRE, e-mail us at crossfire@cnn.com. Make sure to include your name and home town.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for "Fireback." Every day we invite you to send us e-mails; every day you do. We have some. Here they are.
BEGALA: Let's open our e-mail bag. Here is Larry Newcomb in Jacksonville, Florida, writes: "Tucker, I didn't know you could dance. Ever since the stock market dropped and corporate crime has become a big issue, Republicans have been on the defense, and you've been doing the Texas two-step." Larry, good point. I like the two-step.
CARLSON: I'm not sure I'm going to respond to an extended dancing metaphor, but thanks, Larry.
Next, Dick DeMartino from Pittsburgh writes: "Is it true that if Cheney comes out of hiding and sees his shadow, we'll have six more months of recession?" I don't know, but former President Clinton has emerged from his hole, and I know that's not a good sign.
BEGALA: We want Dick Cheney to come on CROSSFIRE. We'll give him two three minutes -- well, no, two, three seconds before I jump his butt. Oh well.
Peter Smith in Chandler, Arizona says: "I'm wondering, now that we have our first MBA in the White House and a Cabinet of ex-corporate board members, how long it will be before the U.S. files for Chapter 11?" Well, Peter, good point. They're already running the debt up.
CARLSON: Democrats are hoping so. That's your campaign strategy.
BEGALA: Yes, they promised...
CARLSON: The lower America goes, the better you think your political (UNINTELLIGIBLE) are.
BEGALA: They promised us they'd run the country like a business; they just didn't tell us the business was Enron.
CARLSON: OK. Next up: "Send me the name and number of the lawyer in the fast food fat case" -- people suing fast food for getting fat. "I'm going on 50, barely tip the scale at 100 pounds, and I still can't fill out my first training bra. Surely that must be the fault of the fruit and vegetable industry, so let's sue them."
That's a great point, Joanne Parks. Nobody ever attacks the Brussel sprouts industry, or the tofu cartel, and I think someone ought to.
BEGALA: And anyone else who wants to write about their body parts, just send them in... CARLSON: Call your trial lawyer.
BEGALA: More information than we needed to know, Joanne, but thank you.
CARLSON: Now to the audience. Yes.
BEGALA: Comment or question.
Tell us your name and where you're from.
JOHN LANG (ph): John Lang from (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mississippi. My question is, if they're going to take me in for misconduct, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: That's an excellent point. Unfortunately, there is a man who loves to be on television. I bet he'd volunteer.
BEGALA: You might have missed it in Mississippi, but they did a fair amount of coverage of Clinton's problems in his marriage. I am just wondering when they are going to do the same coverage of Bush's problems at Harken Energy, where he allegedly participated in some really nasty...
CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You'll get nowhere with that story. It's ludicrous.
BEGALA: Yes, sir.
JAIME (ph): Paul, my name is Jaime (ph) from Palm Beach, Florida. I'm wondering if you ever get tired of being Clinton's lackey by putting a clean face on all his wrongdoings and scandals.
BEGALA: I'm wondering if you'd ever get tired trashing the greatest president of my lifetime? I will tell you what, I would much rather have a guy who was in bed with a young girl than a guy who's in bed with Enron, and that's what we've got now. So we've just got a difference of opinion, brother. Thank you very much for your question.
CARLSON: That's a clever line, Paul.
BEGALA: It's true.
CARLSON: The fact is, the guy was fundamentally dishonest from day one.
BEGALA: How many people lost their job because Clinton fooled around with a young girl?
CARLSON: Actually, many now...
BEGALA: We had 1.8 million lose their jobs because of Bush's economic policies.
CARLSON: That's the economy that he gave us. Yes, ma'am, a question.
SHEILAH KENHOLE (ph): Hi, my name is Sheilah Kenhole (ph), and I'm from Ann Arbor, Michigan. And my question to you is in regards to the argument that former presidents should not be able to defend their policies -- if a person who led this country, who is representing this entire nation, cannot express their dismay toward a policy, what kind of precedence does this set for First Amendment rights for normal citizens in this country?
CARLSON: It's not a question of First Amendment rights he has, and nobody has denied him his First Amendment rights. The question is, is it seemly for him to whine on television continuously about subjects he had eight years to discuss in public, and did relentlessly? And no, it's not seemly. It's embarrassing. I think deep down Paul is embarrassed. You'll admit you are.
BEGALA: I am thrilled that he did it; I wish he was on every single night, because he was stating simple facts, that he tried to prevent these corporate frauds that Bush allowed to happen. Those are just the facts.
CARLSON: It's just self-justification, and it's pathetic. If he was secure with himself...
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for yet another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins immediately after a CNN "News Alert."
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