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CNN Crossfire

Does Clinton Hurt Candidates by Associating With Them?; Should the `American Idol' Winner Be Featured on the Day of Remembrance?

Aired September 04, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: ... I submit to you, Senator, that a Kansas City fireman and a Saint Louis policemen are on the front lines of a battle against terrorism, and to a person, I'll bet you most of them belong to a union.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They do.

CARVILLE: Can you think of any union regulations that stop these people from being good Americans, that stop these people from serving their country?

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Americans! What does that have to do with it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's nonsense.

CARVILLE: Well, you're saying that you can't have protection, that people, if they join the union, are not going to be very effective at protecting the United States, and I just, respectfully, disagree. I think St. Louis firemen and Kansas City policemen are perfectly able to join a union and protect the public.

CARLSON: Are St. Louis firemen going to be in the department of Homeland Security?

SEN. BILL NELSON (D), FLORIDA: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't have -- listen, the military doesn't have unions saying that if you go to sleep on your sentry post, you can't be...

CARLSON: I just want to give Senator Nelson just a last word.

NELSON: I was going to say, civilians in the department of defense have these protections. So if that's part of the protections...

CARVILLE: You mean, the civilians that work in the department of defense have union protection. Can they serve their country, Senator, or are these people so encumbered by unions they can't do anything?

CARLSON: I'd love to let the demagoguery go on, James. Unfortunately, we are out of time.

Senators, thank you, both, so much.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That shows who's running their bus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's doing it again.

CARLSON: Thank you.

Still ahead, the Clinton curse, one touch and your political career melts away.

Also, the TV show that will decide who has what it takes to stand, here on September 11.

And "The Quote of the Day" comes from one of the people who may, in fact, be standing there, if you can imagine.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Welcome back.

Tonight, on Fox TV, they'll pick the winner of a talent show called "American Idol." One of the two contestants will win a fabulous (UNINTELLIGIBLE) highly questionable prize. They'll get to sing the "Star Spangled Banner" on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial as part of the Day of Remembrance ceremony on September 11.

We'll debate the taste, ethics and entertainment value of all of this in a little bit. But just to let you know, the contestants are motivated by the highest possible principles, we're going to give one of them, Kelly Clarkson, our quote of the day. She said, quote "This show is amazing. This has given us an opportunity we could not have paid for. I'm willing to do anything for this show."

Kelly, I hope you don't get to sing on the Lincoln Memorial on September 11.

CARLSON: But you know, James, this makes me sad. I read this quote, and I thought, we have a lot of wonderful people who work, here on CROSSFIRE, and I thought, do they feel the same way? Would they do anything for our show?

I mean, there is a certain, I don't know, commitment that Kelly shows.

CARVILLE: I think that is a good question, and I think that we ought to pass out questionnaires...

CARLSON: We'll do that after the show.

CARVILLE: ... and maybe we'll submit the answers to John Ashcroft. He can have them blocked up...

CARLSON: Another non-sequitous. A non-sequitous show.

Did the justice department play a role in the Louisiana State's University's firing of a bioweapons researcher? That would be Steven Hatfill. Connie Chung has some new information for us, next in a CNN News Alert.

In a little bit, daily show correspondent, Mo Rocca will help put "American Idol" in the CROSSFIRE.

Also, the political fortunes, most of them paltry, of the Clinton club. We'll explain it.

Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful Foggy Bottom in downtown Washington, D.C.

Former president Bill Clinton says his political career is over. But that isn't true for other members of the Clinton administration. Senator Hillary Clinton, of course, is the only first lady to be elected to the United States Senate. And other members of the Clinton club are running for offices, here, with mixed results.

We're going to survey, right now. Joining us from Chicago is former presidential adviser and dear friend of mine and the most annoying little runt you'll ever run across, Rahm Emanuel, who's running for Congress and is widely expected to win. And with him, his republican strategist and gorgeous woman, former New York Congressman Susan Molinari.

CARLSON: Congressman, thank you for joining us. I appreciate it. Congratulations on being one of the few, perhaps the only veteran of the Clinton administration to do well. It does seem like the closer the Clintons get to a candidate, the worse she does. Witness, yesterday, with Andrew Cuomo who put Clinton in his ads.

But earlier than that, Steve Grossman in Massachusetts who was endorsed by the former president and then dropped out of the race because after that, nobody wanted to vote for him. What is -- why does Clinton hurt candidates so much?

RAHM EMANUEL, CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE (R), ILLINOIS: Well, listen, I happen to think that it's not that the president, in fact, hurts. In fact, I think that without that credential of having worked for him, you really would lack essential ingredient to run. But you have to translate that into what you've done, what you're going to do. And you know, as the president used to say, elections aren't about the past, they're about the future as it relates to people's lives, and you have to make a case what you're going to do to help people help their lives, whether it comes to retirement security, health care security, helping afford college education. Without the credential of having worked in the White House or the administration, you're not going to have what is, I think is, essential, the credibility kind of bar to run and to announce. After that, you've got to make it on your own and be able to translate that into what it means to people's lives going forward, not the past. The credential's essential, but you've got to make the case about the future to the voters and to their concerns.

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a person who was reputedly close to President Clinton, namely, his wife, Mrs. Clinton, who ran in the state that you know something about, and she won in a crushing landslide, I think, by 12 points. What are we having this show about? I mean, Ron won big, too. The truth of the matter is, some people doing very well, and some people don't do as well.

SUSAN MOLINARI, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, the truth is, I think, that you know, right now, particularly as we look into this election cycle, when people have had time to mull over the Clinton presidency, there's people who fall into two camps. Those people who he doesn't help or don't want his help, like Erskine Bowles, Janet Reno, Andrew Cuomo, Robert Reich, and then, there's Rahm Emanuel, who seems to be able to do pretty well, but that's it.

CARLSON: Bill Richardson doing very fine.

MOLINARI: The Clinton legacy is over. Bill Richardson was a members of congress. He really established himself internationally, before he became a member of the Clinton administration.

CARLSON: I think Susan Molinari makes a great point. If you look at each race, individually, I think you point stands that voters judge the candidate by his own credentials and ability, et cetera, et cetera. You're right, there. But if you stand back a little bit and look at the statistical picture of this, the vast majorities of the veterans of the Clinton administration are failing. There is a pattern. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) How could there not be?

EMANUEL: Tucker, what's out here -- listen, you have the first lady won. I haven't won my election yet. I'm actually, as soon as I'm done here, I'm going to walk a precinct. I'm not taking anything for granted, here. But the fact is the president -- if the question is is he a liability? No it's an asset. But you have to translate it, and I don't think you can draw a conclusion about Steve Grossman or about Andrew Cuomo if you're not going to and then look at the first lady or happen to be -- I had them in. I talked about my record, what I did with them on health care for kids. That is essential, as I talk about what I want to do to the future. It is an essential threshold of credibility.

CARLSON: But you just said a second ago, -- this is a little off track, but I can't let it go. You said that you're not...

EMANUEL: Try, it will be good for you.

CARLSON: ... taking this election for granted. You're not taking this election for granted, yet there was this very amusing "New York Times" piece, the other day, about how you were trying to get a seat in the Ways and Means Committee, even before the election. So if you're not taking it for granted, why were you trying to elbow your way into a seat on that committee?

EMANUEL: Susan knows. And maybe this'll be good for you, Tucker. If you run for Congress, somebody's going to ask you what you want to do and where you want to serve. If you can't announce what legislative committee you want to serve on, you should think of another line of work. I've announced what I'd like to do. That is the committee I'd like to work on because it deals with health care. It deals with taxes. Those are things I've worked on. Not going to say that I'm going to be on it, but that's my interest. And that's what you do when you want to run.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I want to give Rahm a A-plus for delivering his message.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Let me -- I don't know why Tucker finds (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I think Rahm is a great friend, a great guy. What member of congress would not want to be on the Ways and Means Committee?

MOLINARI: That's why I said what I said. That's why I said, he just threw him a softball that he just hit right across (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

EMANUEL: Sit over here. Hey, Tucker, come -- go ahead, Susan. I'm sorry.

MOLINARI: I mean, the truth is that, you know, one of the reasons why I wanted to come on tonight was to talk about New York, which is just another show of how the Clinton legacy sometimes can hurt and sometimes can hurt badly. I mean, here we have a man who didn't even stand by his own Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.

CARVILLE: He did get involved in a primary. Come on. He was -- I mean, that is a -- hey, Carl McCall is a great democrat, is a friend of president Clinton, is a friend of Senator Clinton's, and it would be ludicrous for him to get involved, and if he got involved, then, you all would say, primary people would howl and say what's he doing?

MOLINARI: But by not getting involved, James, he really got involved. I mean, Chuck Schumer got involved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course he did.

MOLINARI: I mean, Chuck Schumer got involved, and this is -- I want to just say one thing because all the media, everything I read, today, played up this whole thing about how Cuomo, I mean, Clinton came in, and he tied this thing, and he really cut the deal, and he was the one that helped to make, you know, McCall the stronger candidate. And the truth is that if the Clintons put a hammer in the nail of the coffin of Andrew Cuomo, it was really Chuck Schumer who built that coffin for him.

CARVILLE: I just want to say, if he came out and endorsed somebody, and say, well, here, he is. He just moved to New York and now he's endorsing someone. I mean, all this is -- if Clinton is so bad for New York, why did Mrs. Clinton win by 12 points?

MOLINARI: We could go through that entire campaign all over again, and I think Rick Lazio would be the first one he would come on TV and talk about what he did that was (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Second. Quick question. Wait, let me go back. Let's go back to this. Can I just (UNINTELLIGIBLE) one question before because we're almost out of time. Why -a lot of republicans are putting Hillary Clinton in their ads to raise money off of her negative image. Why are no democrats putting Hillary in their ads, I wonder?

EMANUEL: You know, go ask them. I don't know. I mean, I don't understand -- Tucker, I don't understand the question. I mean...

CARLSON: The question is why are the Democrats embarrassed of her?

CARVILLE: Rahm, let me ask you a question. In your district, what are people asking you about, Bill Clinton or affordable health care? What are they asking you about, Bill Clinton or education? Tell us what you hear.

EMANUEL: Listen, I just -- I did a Jefferson El stop, this morning. I'm about to go do a precinct walk. I did one the other night near Wrigley field. Everybody is talking about things that matter to them, kids' education, crime in the neighborhood, more police on the streets. It is about their lives. It's not about Bill Clinton's life.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Thank you, Rahm. You have answered these withering questions, very well.

(CROSSTALK)

EMANUEL: Well, since I got called a runt on TV, I thought I'd give a runt answer.

MOLINARI: You maximized your opportunities. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Rahm.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Both great guests. You're both great people. Thank you very much. CARLSON: Thank you very much.

Coming up, a viewer who saw a debate over letting women into the Augusta National Golf Club, last night. She fired back a hole-in-one.

But next, choosing the lowlight for next week's remembrance of September 11. It really is appalling. You'll have to see it to believe it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Is winning a spot on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial during a national day of remembrance ceremony on September 11 better than winning a dishwasher or a new car? Fox TV's "American Idol" answers that question, tonight, when the judges pick either Kelly Clarkson or Justin Brini (ph) to sing the "Star Spangled Banner" during next week's ceremony.

It's appalling. But to help us sample the excitement permeating from New York, we're joined by Mo Rocca, correspondent for Comedy Central's, "The Daily Show."

Thanks for joining us, Mo.

MO ROCCA, "THE DAILY SHOW" CORRESPONDENT: Thank you for having me.

CARVILLE: Mo, Palacido Domingo is actually a resident of Washington, D.C. Why would anyone want to hear somebody who won something on an idiot television show as opposed to one of the great singers of all time? And wouldn't he sing, singing the national anthem be much more appropriate than (UNINTELLIGIBLE) goofy show?

ROCCA: You know what, you're missing, you're missing the point, here. "American Idol" is a very important show, here. To me, it represents, and to millions of others, it represents the revitalization of American democracy. More people will end up voting in this competition than will vote in the mid-term elections in November. R.J. Helton (ph), a candidate who was kicked off five weeks ago still got more votes than Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle has ever gotten. Young people are engaged with democracy, once again, and it's shocking that you, two, inside the beltway can't accept that.

CARLSON: Yes, but see, here's the problem, and I'm all for democracy...

ROCCA: Right, right.

CARLSON: ... but when democracy takes place in South Dakota, you get Tom Daschle. When democracy takes place on FOX, I want to show you a picture of what you get. Now, this is the guy, Justin. I don't know if you can see it in your monitor. There's Justin. ROCCA: Yes.

CARLSON: Justin may be singing at the Lincoln Memorial, where leaders of American life for generations have stood. I mean, are there words for that?

ROCCA: Yes, there are words for that. And I'll be honest with you. I am endorsing Kelly. I'm not paid by her organization. I'm endorsing her. Justin Brini (ph), when he sings, I, like most American voters, start to choke on my own vomit. I will admit that, right now. But she, however, she's a great American. And in tracking poll after tracking poll, it looks like she's going to trounce him. So we have to trust the American voters. That said, I do think that turnout is very, very important, right now, and these candidates cannot be complacent. It's down to the wire.

CARVILLE: Now, Mo, you're going negative on Justin.

ROCCA: I am going...

CARVILLE: I mean, is there really a place for negative campaigning, when you're trying to pick something as important as the winner of a TV contest?

ROCCA: Absolutely. Kelly -- let me tell you something, Kelly Clarkson has sung about the issues that Americans care about. Last night, she sang the song, "Respect" by Aretha Franklin. American voters, time and time again, have shown that they care about respect. Justin...

CARVILLE: I want to know about -- I want to know something that -- I want to know some bare -- about Justin.

ROCCA: All right, I'll tell you. Three weeks ago, Justin sang "PYT (ph)," OK? That was his Vietnam, the tragedy that will undo his candidacy. It was terrible.

CARLSON: Well, wait a second. I want to know about Kelly's character issue, as we call it here on CROSSFIRE. We had the "Quote of the Day," and she was quoted as saying something to the effect of, I will do anything to win, anything. What does she mean by that, Mo?

ROCCA: Kelly is from the heartland. Kelly is from the heartland. She's from Texas, one of the red states, and she represents the flyover space. Justin is from Pennsylvania, a blue state. I don't think he'll pull through. You know, I'm not envisioning -- I hope we're not going to get another Florida on our hands, here.

CARVILLE: I'll tell you, Mo, when Kelly says that she would do anything to get a vote, I think she's sending a signal out to these all important young male voters that I don't know if it's exactly within keeping of the high moral standards in this country.

ROCCA: I, you know what, I'm going to try to spin this, as well as I can. I probably need a little bit of time. I can't believe that she would do that. She's shown integrity, so far, in the competition, you know. I think she sings really well. That's all I can say for her, and she, and, you know, we're going to stick to the issue.

CARLSON: You are, literally, the Larry Sabato of reality television, so I want you to make a quick prediction.

ROCCA: Yes.

CARLSON: We're almost out of time. Who is going to win this competition?

ROCCA: Kelly is going to walk away with it, but I have three words for her. Dewey defeats Truman. OK. She cannot get complacent, right now. The red states have higher turnout, but weather is always a factor. We've got tornadoes in the Midwest. We've got to -- she's got to do everything she can to get voters to the phones, right now. But she's going to come through. She's going to be your American Idol. And, right now, I think that Justin should pull an Andrew Cuomo. I think he should back out. He should back, endorse Kelly, so that all Americans can unite behind Kelly as our American Idol.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Mo Rocca, Mo, you rock. You rock, Mo. You're a rocking...

ROCCA: Choose or lose, people. Choose or lose.

CARVILLE: Amen. All right. No cliches out of the...

CARLSON: Not on our show.

CARVILLE: I guarantee you.

CARLSON: Next, our viewers get a chance to "Fireback," and they're taking aim, believe it or not, at "American Idol," despite the endorsement from Mo Rocca. Find out what they say.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, coming to you live from the George Washington University.

And we come to one of our favorite parts of the program. It's called "Fireback," and we'll look at the board and see what people've got to say, here. All right.

"Harry Truman had a sign on his desk reading `The buck stops here.' It has been replaced by a sign reading: Just blame Bill." Kenneth Lee, Raytown, Missouri.

Yes, I don't think I ought to blame Bill. I think these guys inherited a $5.6 trillion surplus. But you got to say one thing about President Bush. That's one thing he can do is inherit, very well. CARLSON: You know what.

CARVILLE: He's an expert at that.

CARLSON: I can't even begin to address it.

E.J. from Irving, Texas, writes in about the show we did last night on women being allowed into Augusta National Golf Club.

"As a woman," she writes, "I find it very amusing that any woman who has enough money to join Augusta could possibly feel that society has oppressed her. I think that there are much more important issues in society than bothering a group of decent, law abiding men."

E.J., as a woman, I agree with you.

CARVILLE: Maybe she's like President Bush, she inherited everything. You don't know that.

CARLSON: What are you talking about?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: What a sexist statement.

CARVILLE: I didn't say they did. I said maybe they did. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

OK: "It's gone way too far! It seems totally inappropriate to invite some TV contest winner to sing at September 11 ceremonies. You might as well invite the `Survivor' winner, guests of `Temptation Island,' and the girl of `Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?' all to perform." Debbie, Lawton, Oklahoma.

Actually, Debbie, I agree with you, but I thought that Mo Rocca was a great guest.

CARLSON: He was.

Next stop. Sheri from Vancouver, British Columbia writes: "The notion of having the `American Idol' finalist play at the September 11 ceremony is sickening. Quite honestly, the `American Idol' show itself is a ridiculous waste of time and gives me yet another reason for why I am proud to be Canadian. We would never support that kind of trash."

Well, Sheri, we did a little checking, and it turns out William Shatner, Alex Trebek, Rick Moranis and Pamela Anderson Lee, American? No. Canadian.

CARVILLE: Alex Trebek. I like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) great show. Man, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CARLSON: We have a question from the audience. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, this question is for either Tucker or James. If the Clinton legacy is so hurtful, then why has CROSSFIRE'S ratings gone up so much when it features two former Clinton advisers?

CARLSON: Actually, they go down. It's more a public service. These guys tried to run for office, but being connected to the Clintons, they failed.

CARVILLE: Well, I think, you know, the country knows what happened under Clinton, and they know that the deficit went down, and they're great for it.

From the left, I'm James Carville. Good night, CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us, again tomorrow night, Thursday night, for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT begins immediately, after CNN NEWS ALERT.

Have a great night. See you tomorrow.

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