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CNN Crossfire

Has Bush Made a Reasonable Case for Attacking Iraq?; Who is to Blame for Florida's Election Follies?

Aired September 12, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. ON the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE tonight:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We can not stand by and do nothing while dangers gather.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: He let Iraq have it verbally. Will he also do it militarily? And will Congress go along?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: The president hasn't asked for a specific resolution.

JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I am very certain that this military engagement will not be very difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The Florida follies are back. New Hampshire throws out an incumbent. Get ready for some primary fallout.

And from high finance, to high notes, to outer space -- watch out: Nothing's beyond the reach of the "Police Blotter."

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

America's day of remembrance, September 11, is over. We are back, along with the same old vote counting problems in Florida.

Also tonight, underhanded public officials beware: CROSSFIRE's "Police Blotter" resumes its duty to serve, protect and expose.

But first let's catch up on the political stories you may have missed during the past two days. Here comes from the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

President George W. Bush addressed the United Nations today. He listed Saddam Hussein's many violations of international law, and warned that Saddam possesses weapons of mass destruction. Bush's answer seems to be war.

But in December 1999 candidate Bush was asked what he would do if Saddam Hussein developed such weapons, and he said "take them out." The questioner asked him to clarify: Did Bush say take him out, as in remove Saddam?

No, Bush said, quote, "take out the weapons of mass destruction."

Now, in fairness to President Bush, the questioner did not ask him what he would do if the economy was stalled, prescription drug benefits were dead and an election was right around the corner.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Only you, Paul, could get into cheap politics when the president made a moving and impressive speech to the world.

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has long been an icon in Wall Street. But lately Democratic spin-meisters also have been eagerly quoting him -- usually out of context. The Democrats, however, are in trouble today.

Testifying to Congress, Dr. Greenspan said last year's Bush tax cut was good for the economy, not the inflationary disaster that Democrats have claimed. At the same time, he warned against all the additional spending the Democrats have been panting for.

I guess Alan Greenspan is a Republican after all.

BEGALA: Well, he's a remarkable and gifted public servant. I have great respect for him.

But there is no doubt that the Bush tax plan has failed. We are in an effective recession, and we need the Democratic policies to get us out of it.

Well, victory is ours; well, or at least mine. At this time on Tuesday I blasted Vice President Dick Cheney for his decision to appear on the Rush Limbaugh radio show on September 11. The vice president either felt the heat or saw the light because shortly thereafter he rescheduled his appearance for tomorrow, September 13.

Cheney did the right thing. To appear on such a partisan and divisive program on a day of national mourning and national unity would have been an insult to millions of Americans.

Beyond that, don't you think there's something fitting about Cheney hanging out with Rush Limbaugh on Friday the 13th?

NOVAK: You know, Paul, I guess you delude yourself into thinking: One word from Paul Begala and Dick Cheney snaps to attention. Are Florida Democrats really ready for democracy? Maybe not.

The judge from Tuesday's primary election, the same Miami-area Democratic officials who fouled up the 2000 presidential election did it again. Millionaire lawyer Bill McBride has an 8,000-vote edge over former Attorney General Janet Reno in the Democratic primary for governor.

But who knows? Reno isn't conceding yet, and her campaign is asking to examine some of the results and the voting equipment. The new voting machines purchased in the wake of the 2000 fiasco just didn't work. One black precinct in Miami wasn't open until mid- afternoon. Many voters had to wait 90 minutes; one hour for Janet Reno herself.

And this time, Paul, they can't blame the Republicans.

BEGALA: They have to. The governor, Jeb Bush, took responsibility for fixing this after he stole the election for his brother, and now look at the debacle he's produced again. We'll have more on that later.

And more Dick Cheney news, though, first, the vice president's office has revealed that Cheney will go to the hospital for a few hours tomorrow to have doctors perform what they call a routine check of his heart and a scan of the defibrillator implanted in Cheney's chest.

Of course, all of us here at CROSSFIRE wish the vice president nothing but the best, and admire his remarkable resiliency. And despite the checkup, Cheney will still make time to give an interview to our own Bob Novak for the 20th anniversary of the "NOVAK, HUNT & SHIELDS" program.

Novak is a man who's never had heart problems. Some on the left may think it's because he has no heart. But in truth, it's because he has a heart of gold.

Bob, congratulations on a great coup for an interview.

NOVAK: And I certainly look forward to it. Thank you much.

In Los Angeles today, a judge made a decision that could determine who's the next governor of California. Superior Court Judge James Chalfant threw out a $78 million jury damage award against an investment firm co-owned by Bill Simon, the Republican candidate for governor.

Simon started sinking against Democratic Governor Gray Davis after the jury's decision in July. Simon has predicted from the start that the jury's verdict was flawed and would be overturned by a judge.

He is right. Simon's only eight points behind a very unpopular Democratic governor, and this is a big boost for Bill Simon.

BEGALA: You know, some politicians have "D" by their name for "Democrat," some have "R" for "Republican." Simon has "L": loser. He's going down. Gray Davis is going to win big; you watch.

NOVAK: OK.

President Bush elegantly and forcefully put his case against Saddam Hussein before the United Nations General Assembly today. The Iraqi delegation may be scoffing, but will the rest of the world now take this President Bush as seriously as the last one?

In the CROSSFIRE tonight are Ohio Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich and Virginia Republican Congressman Eric Cantor, a member of the House International Relations Committee.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Congressman Cantor, you chair something called the House Conference on Terrorism, sort of a self-appointed thing; but it shows your commitment to the cause of fighting terrorism.

Which is a greater threat to America: al Qaeda terrorists or the country of Iraq?

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R), VIRGINIA: I think, Paul, you ask a good question, but really they're one and the same. And that is part of the threat that Saddam Hussein poses.

The president said today in his U.N. speech that Iraq is harboring al Qaeda terrorists. And if you look at the history and the involvement of Saddam Hussein in sponsoring terror, and the fact that he has coddled, supported, financed these individuals to go ahead and do what they have done. And after September 11, I can't think of anyone who doesn't realize that Saddam Hussein is not a threat to the United States in a great way.

BEGALA: But you've conflated two very different things, and frankly, I don't want to let you get away with it.

Al Qaeda, according to the CIA -- well, our vice president on Sunday went on "Meet the Press" and he said much the same thing, in fact. He said there had been a secret meeting between Mohammed Atef, one of the leaders of the terrorist ring on September 11, and Iraqi intelligence. Tim Russert on "Meet the Press" said, is that credible? Does the CIA think it's credible.

Cheney said, oh yes.

The next day in the "New York Times," the CIA said no, it's not credible. There is no link, according to intelligence sources who talked to the newspapers, at all.

What evidence do you have of a link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.

CANTOR: Well, certainly the Czech officials maintain that there was a meeting April of 2000.

BEGALA: So you believe them, and not the CIA? CANTOR: April of 2001 that the meeting between Mohammed Atta and the Iraqi diplomat took place.

Saddam Hussein has demonstrated that he will do anything to accomplish his goals. He has used weapons of mass destruction against his own people. He has attacked his neighbors.

BEGALA: Those aren't our people.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: There are some Czech officials who take that position, some who don't, just to keep things a little on the record.

Now, Dennis Kucinich, God help me, I have agreed with you on some of the things you have said about this administration's war mongering.

But today, can't you agree that the president was really impressive? He went to the U.N., he said he would go to Security Council. He said -- he did not set deadlines. He did not wave a sword.

Weren't you impressed by that?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, I think it's very important any time our president is before the international community, and it's also important that our president state a willingness to cooperate with the international community.

The one thing that needs to be said, though, is that there's absolutely no indication that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, is connected to al Qaeda, or that they had anything to do with the anthrax attacks.

Furthermore, there's no credible information that Iraq has the -- any usable weapons of mass destruction, the ability to deliver such weapons, or the intent to do so.

So if people are looking at a pretext for the United States to launch a unilateral war, I don't think that they've even established a pretext.

NOVAK: I want you to listen, Congressman, to something the president said today.

And we'll put it up on the screen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately and unconditionally forswear, disclose and remove or destroy all weapons of mass destruction, long-range missiles and all related material.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Doesn't the president give Saddam Hussein a way out of this? He's not saying, we're going to bomb you whatever you do. He says: You do these things and you escape the bombing.

KUCINICH: Well, we have to make sure that the way that the ultimatum is presented to Saddam Hussein is a way that we can get compliance.

I mean, absolutely, we have to have inspections. And the international community should be leading the way to insist that there be inspections. But what if, as a result of the inspections, it's shown that Saddam Hussein does not have weapons of mass destruction?

Do you still bomb and invade anyway? Do you still press for regime change?

The point is, Bob, that you can't simultaneously ask for a regime change and ask Iraq to cooperate with inspectors.

CANTOR: But that's -- you make a good point. I mean, first of all, if there was strict compliance with the U.N. resolution, there would be no more regime of Saddam Hussein, because everything that the president is asking Saddam to do, which is comply with the 16 or so U.N. resolutions that he has defied would mean a complete change in the nature of his regime. So that would mean his stepping down and democracy taking hold in Iraq.

But to say that there is no connection with Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction; he has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to use these. The weapons inspectors who have been in there and played the game of cat and mouse for seven years with Saddam Hussein, there is -- have come out and said that, yes, there were weapons of mass destruction programs. There was an Iraqi defector who confirmed the fact that Saddam misrepresented what he had, or didn't develop in the terms of biological weapons.

Clearly this man is dead-set on using weapons of mass destruction. He has done so across his borders, within his borders. He is coddling terrorists. He is a brutal dictator, the likes of which the world has very few of.

And I think that in the face of...

NOVAK: Very few of?

CANTOR: Bob, in the face of mortal danger to engage in wishful thinking is clearly bad policy.

CHUNG: Let me ask you, Congressman Kucinich about this nexus. You and I doubt any connection between Iraq and al Qaeda, but Bob Graham, who's the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee on Sunday gave an interview to the "New York Times" in which he said that Syria and Iran clearly are harboring and supporting al Qaeda.

If that were proved, and our president made the case, would you support war against those countries?

KUCINICH: Well, we have to be very careful. We're getting on a slippery slope here. And that is if the United States takes unilateral action against any state that possesses or is pursuing or capable of acquiring weapons of mass destruction -- I mean, I have an intelligence report here, there are 17 states that have nuclear weapons -- are possessing, pursuing or capable of acquiring. In those categories, 26 with chemical, 20 with biological...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... we bombed them out of Afghanistan, as we should have. And if al Qaeda were in Iraq, which they're not, I would support a war there.

They're apparently, according to Bob Graham, in Iran and Syria.

I'm just kind of asking, as somebody who's a skeptic of this war, would, if you had proof that al Qaeda was hiding out in Syria, would you be for war there?

KUCINICH: We have to work through the U.N. Security Council. We cannot be the policemen of the world. I don't think our people want us to be. We have to work with the world community to solve these matters of global security. That's our responsibility.

NOVAK: Congressman Cantor, Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts -- I think even though you may disagree with him on many things, you'll agree he's a thoughtful person. And after the president's speech today he said this.

And let's listen to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: If the president of the United States as of this Sunday has not made up his mind as to what option he would use, it is premature to come to Congress and tell us what we should be doing when he doesn't know what he's doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: How do you answer that, Mr. Cantor?

CANTOR: If the president -- listen, the ultimate decision as to how and when to conduct this effort to oust Saddam Hussein is up to the president. But I do think...

NOVAK: You give him a blank check, then?

CANTOR: I do think that Congress, when he comes to Congress -- and I think, frankly, he laid a good foundation today, making the case to the world at the U.N., providing the dynamics and putting them in place for Congress to act as soon as possible.

And I think we need to give him the authority he needs...

NOVAK: A blank check?

CANTOR: We need to give him the authority and the flexibility to conduct this effort the way he sees fit.

Bob, we have the most capable military in the world, and this president and his national security team will gather all the information necessary and effect our policy of regime change.

BEGALA: I don't think people are doubting the military, it's the commander in chief.

But we're going to have to hold this -- both those thoughts for a minute, both Congressmen.

When we come back we're going to ask our guests why the congressional Republicans are in such a hurry to force on (sic) Iraq? Could it be that there's an election around the corner?

And later, the state that just can't seem to count all of its citizens' votes or even let all of its citizens vote, apparently.

And our "Quote of the Day," a case of blatant partisanship cloaked in the veneer of homeland security.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)

KUCINICH: ... abide by international law. What's the alternative? That we, for the first time in our history, become the aggressor? We'd lose the moral high ground. We'd lose the example that we need to give to other nations.

(CROSSTALK)

CANTOR: I would say after September 11, I don't see how we could follow that advice.

Clearly, the United States government has an obligation to protect its people and its institutions. We don't need to seek anyone's permission to protect American lives.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about the timing.

(CROSSTALK)

KUCINICH: You know, wait. Saddam Hussein is not an immediate threat to the United States, and no one with any credibility is maintaining that he has the ability to strike at the United States.

The truth of the matter is, you know what's an imminent threat? Unemployment, the fact that people in my district don't have health insurance, they can't afford prescription drugs.

(CROSSTALK)

KUCINICH: ... the kinds of things that people are worried about. CANTOR: But what I am saying is that after September 11 we have seen that terrorists are out there that will -- if Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, which we know he does have, then terrorists have them.

If Saddam Hussein develops nuclear capability, then terrorists will have nuclear capability. All we have to do is look one year ago yesterday to see that that is a grave threat.

BEGALA: Which is something that -- Congressman, let me move on to the question of timing, OK?

In January of this year Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser, gave a speech where he said, we're going to take the issue of the war to the American people in the election. Got in a lot of trouble for being so partisan.

In June, a memo, a presentation that he had written was leaked to the newspapers. He had lost his computer disk, and somebody put it in the newspaper. The first three words of his campaign strategy briefing for Republicans: Focus on war.

And on Saturday the "New York Times" quoted on the record the chief of staff to the president and Mr. Rove saying that they had devised this strategy for what they called "marketing reasons."

They are pushing this because of the election by their own admission, aren't they?

CANTOR: You can say what you will.

BEGALA: I'm saying what they said, sir.

CANTOR: I think it is reprehensible to impute any type of political motive...

BEGALA: When they say it's political?

(CROSSTALK)

CANTOR: ... the president and his team and trying to stand up and protect this country.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: You certainly don't agree with that demagoguery, do you?

KUCINICH: No, I'm not going to impugn the president, because I don't think he'd wag the dog, but he's got advisers who would wag a whole kennel.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: It's not a filibuster. I just want to -- I just want to do something -- give you something that President Bush said today.

Let's listen to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: First time we may be completely certain he has a nuclear weapons is when, God forbids, he uses one. We owe it to all our citizens to do everything in our power to prevent that day from coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Mr. Cantor, what he's saying is we don't know whether he has nuclear weapons, but the fact that he may have justifies an attack because he might have. Is that correct?

CANTOR: I mean, I'll ask you, Bob, are you willing to take the risk that we don't act until he has nuclear weapons? I'm certainly not, because the alternative is a policy of containment right now. And a policy of containment could very well lead to another round of mutual assured destruction, and I don't want to engage in that with Saddam Hussein.

(CROSSTALK)

KUCINICH: "Washington Post" headlines: "Iraq lacks material for nuclear bombs, study says."

There are 17 nations that have the ability to -- that are possessing, pursuing, or acquiring weapons of mass destruction. Seventeen nuclear -- are we going to go and invade the whole world?

NOVAK: Last word. Dennis Kucinich, Eric Cantor, thank you very much.

Still to come, the long arm of the law reaches for the high and mighty. The CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter" is back.

Also, Florida's vote counters are waiting: Will she or won't she demand a recount? She is demanding a recount.

And some Democrats were thinking he was turning into a dove, or at least becoming kinder and gentler. Our "Quote of the Day" proves them wrong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: A few weeks ago, Democrats like Paul Begala were gloating when House Majority Leader Dick Armey questioned the president's policy on Iraq. They asked: Has Dick Armey gone soft?

Well, he may still want some convincing on Iraq, but Dick Armey is 100 percent behind doing things the president's way when it comes up to setting up a department of homeland security. And that includes taking aim at liberal obstructionists, specifically Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle.

In our quote of the day, Dick Armey proves his loyalties by questioning Senator Daschle's.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK ARMEY (R), TEXAS: ... simply did not put America first. It's frustrating. It's disappointing. And, frankly, it's dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Shame on Dick Armey, who never wore the uniform. Tom Daschle served in the Air Force, and Dick Armey and George Bush would have their homeland security bill tomorrow if they weren't using it as a vehicle to take away rights that our heroic public employees have had for decades.

NOVAK: I'll tell you what it was in a sentence, and you know it: Tom Daschle is pandering to the labor unions. Dick Armey is interested in protecting America.

BEGALA: Shame on him.

NOVAK: Some U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan are in for a close shave.

Connie Chung will tell us why next in a CNN News Alert.

Later, it was close but not quite close enough in Florida. Will Janet Reno be a graceful loser? Not a chance.

And one of Paul Begala's heroes goes from earth to the moon, to the CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

Florida's state election board says it was close, but the results of the Democratic primary for governor are not close enough to trigger an automatic recount. Bill McBride is leading Janet Reno, but Reno isn't conceding.

About an hour ago, her campaign official said they are requesting a review of the accuracy in 81 precincts, including a look at the voting equipment.

Here we go again.

Here to go assess the fallout in Florida and elsewhere are Democratic strategist and former Gore campaign spokesman Doug Hattaway, along with Republican strategist Alex Castellanos.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Guys, thank you. Thank you both.

I mean, for Doug, this is old hat, right? Alex...

DOUG HATTAWAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Deja vu.

BEGALA: Doug, you were Al Gore's point man in the Florida recount, as all of us remember.

And Alex, I guess it's proof they always return to the scene of the crime.

The governor of Florida, at the time that they stole the election from Al Gore, was a guy named Jeb Bush. He's been in all the papers. Here's what he said at the time because of the massive voting irregularities that occurred on his watch, at the time in 2000 he made the following pledge.

Watch the governor of Florida. He said: "Clearly" -- clearly -- "there will be a lesson from this election experience that we'll act on."

Yes, the lesson was: Screw the Democrats every time you can. Isn't that his...

ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well Paul, now we know exactly what the problem is: You Democrats don't know how to vote. You couldn't figure out how to vote for president, now you can't vote for governor.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: It's his state. He's running the state.

(CROSSTALK)

CASTELLANOS: ... 62 out of 65 counties got it right, but two counties where there are Democrat election supervisors, they couldn't even figure out how to get someone to the polls at 7:00 a.m. to open them up.

This is a people problem, not a machine problem.

HATTAWAY: The most pathetic sight of this whole situation was the governor of the state trying to pass the buck.

BEGALA: Right.

HATTAWAY: I think that was the biggest problem.

With all the scrutiny of this state in 2000, it was a global laughingstock, and the governor should have been on this like a laser beam for two years. He was absent for two years.

CASTELLANOS: What you should do is tell about the Democrats' dirty little secret in Florida. And that's that the Democratic power brokers in Florida were warned that these two counties weren't getting ready months ago. And you know what? They did nothing. And you know why? Because this is Janet Reno's base, and they didn't want Janet Reno on the ballot, they wanted the big-spending liberal.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Who's the governor?

CASTELLANOS: They turned down offers of help in that county. Those people should be investigated and prosecuted.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ... you and Paul are joined at the hip.

By the way, I have -- every time you say that he stole that election, I will say he didn't. And it's an insult to the American system every time you say that, Paul.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: But to go on, you've got -- you're joined at the hip with the spin that this was Jeb Bush's fault. This is two counties which are heavily Democratic.

And let's listen to what Governor Bush said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA GOVERNOR: It should be an embarrassment to the people that run elections in Miami and in Broward County. They should be embarrassed, and they better fix it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Isn't it true, Mr. Hattaway, that those are Democrats that run that show?

HATTAWAY: Nothing that happens in Florida is Jeb Bush's fault. They're facing a fiscal mess. The Child Protection Agency is a disaster. None of it is the governor's fault.

CASTELLANOS: The crime rate is down the lowest it's been in 20 years. Three times the number of good schools they had.

HATTAWAY: Now that's not his fault.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: They lose children under Jeb Bush. Are you going to blame the Democrats that they lose children, God help us, in the foster care system.

Now they can't run an election, they can't run a foster care system. They can't run a budget.

He can't run nothing bigger than his mouth, can he?

CASTELLANOS: How come everybody else can run it except these people who were warned a couple of months ago and did nothing about it?

We know you Democrats think that the voting booth is a big ATM where you just get taxpayers' money to spend. Maybe your Democrats tried to make a withdrawal.

NOVAK: I think that Alex said something that's really interesting. I'd like to respond to it. It was very interesting, because we have a situation where Janet Reno, who is one of -- probably the worst attorney general in the history of the United States. And she was -- she's a desperately -- she was a desperately bad candidate, and the power brokers got this rich Palm Beach lawyer who had laid-off his whole staff because his firm was going under, and they had to undermine her vote in those two counties.

Isn't that true?

HATTAWAY: And the Republicans helped out Bill McBride more than anybody by running ads attacking. The Republicans are afraid of Bill McBride. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) raised his name I.D., helped out a guy who would do perfectly well on his own, thank you very much.

CASTELLANOS: Listen, if he's going to run -- so far this guy has already promised $1 billion in taxes and spending around there. He's part of the Democratic tax ticket down there. He's in huge trouble. Such a weak candidate, they had to prop him up...

NOVAK: I want to move on to another race, and that's New Hampshire, where you were licking your chops on poor Bob Smith, Senator Bob Smith, that Governor Jeanne Shaheen could defeat him without trouble.

You suffered a big defeat on Tuesday when John E. Sununu won that primary, didn't you? Because he is a much tougher candidate than Smith, isn't he?

HATTAWAY: I know the Republican establishment here in Washington was breathing a big sigh of relief when Sununu ran because he's less nutty than Bob Smith and less of an embarrassment.

But Sununu has the same record, just as bad a record. He's been down here in Washington voting with the corporate special interests. In this case he's going to be against Jeanne Shaheen, who's been out there fighting for the people as their governor, and this guy who's been down here voting with the corporate special interest...

NOVAK: Well, wouldn't you have preferred Smith on the ballot? Be honest.

(CROSSTALK)

HATTAWAY: Prefer Smith? Sure, I'd prefer Smith.

(CROSSTALK)

CASTELLANOS: Jeanne Shaheen, otherwise known as The Taxing Machine Jeanne Shaheen...

HATTAWAY: Nice try.

CASTELLANOS: ... is on defense up there. They thought the Republicans would be on the defense. Instead, it's the Democratic tax ticket. The guy running for governor has been the biggest advocate of a state income tax in the history...

(CROSSTALK)

CASTELLANOS: Yes, but what it's going to do, it's tainting the entire ticket.

(CROSSTALK)

CASTELLANOS: Chalk this one up as a downgrade for the Democrats.

BEGALA: I do think it would be preferable to have Bob Smith, because he is a man of principle. He stands by his principles. When he thought his party abandoned him he walked away from his party. I admire that in a politician.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Sununu, however, is a guy who called for privatizing Social Security, not once, but three, four, five times. Now he denies it.

Let me show you the record. Here's what Sununu, in his own words, said about privatizing Social Security: "It's good public policy to trust younger workers to invest some of their Social Security tax money in private sector accounts."

The man -- the Cato Institute, not exactly a liberal think tank, the most conservative Libertarian think tank says this: "Sununu favors the privatization of Social Security."

CASTELLANOS: Well, that's the Cato Institute. That's not him. But the point is...

BEGALA: Yes it is him. He told them. That was their questionnaire.

(CROSSTALK)

CASTELLANOS: All these Republicans ...

BEGALA: Why is he running away from this?

CASTELLANOS: All these Republicans are saying is that people should have personal control of their Social Security retirement accounts, at least a little bit so that you Democrats won't keep spending the money. (CROSSTALK)

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: I want to ask Alex a question. Can I ask you a question?

There was -- one of the most interesting results on Tuesday was when Governor George Pataki lost the independence primary to Tom Golisano, running as a center-right conservative. Pataki has moved over to the left. Three-way race.

Doesn't this now mean that you have a real horserace for governor of New York?

CASTELLANOS: Well, you know, it changes the geometry of it, and I think it may be a little tougher.

But Pataki -- I think is so affectionately regarded now and respected in that state. A symbol of how strong he is: When Cuomo announced his campaign, that day he attacked Pataki, his campaign went underwater that day, never recovered. I think Pataki is still in great shape there.

HATTAWAY: Pataki is popular, but he is not loved. He has very soft support. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is going to spend $30 to $50 million. Just taking chunks...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I want to thank Doug Hattaway, democratic A-strategist. Alex Castellanos, brilliant Republican strategist. We've got to get him over to our side.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: In our "Fireback" segment, one of the viewers has been spending some time with a dictionary, and has looked up a few choice words for me.

And coming up next: If you're in trouble with the law, call an attorney. But if you're a public figure in trouble with the law, you can count on being in the CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter."

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: When public figures cross paths with law enforcement, justice may be blind, but there's no hiding from the CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter."

Democratic Senator Robert Torricelli of New Jersey has a problem that just won't go away. Not only did the Senate Ethics Committee severely admonish him last July, a government investigation of his 1996 Senate campaign finances left behind a paper trail, and Torricelli is trying as hard as he can to keep it secret. Responding to a media lawsuit, Torricelli's attorney says that releasing the report on The Torch's alleged misdeeds would be unfair. After all, that would allow the public to see it just before this fall's election.

Can you think of anything more unfair than that?

BEGALA: Well, three more corporate fat cats are going to be spending their allegedly ill-gotten gains on legal fees instead of greens fees, if they get a chance to spend them at all.

Tyco International's former CEO Dennis Kozlowski, as well as the company's ex-chief financial officer and the former general counsel have been charged with looting the conglomerate of at least $600 million. Authorities also are trying to freeze the men's assets.

Meanwhile, W's pal, ex-Enron CEO Kenny-boy Lay has yet to receive so much as a parking ticket from the Bush administration. Maybe it's not what you do, but who you know that matters.

NOVAK: The voters of Providence, Rhode Island really know how to pick their Democratic mayors. For 21 years, they elect Democratic Mayor Buddy Cianci, lord it over city hall, soliciting bribes in returns for favors, and forcing city employees to contribute to his campaigns. Cianci has finally been convicted of corruption and forced from office.

How do you follow an act like that? How about with the high- rolling, openly gay son of an attorney who made a career of defending mob bosses?

David Cicilline breezed through Tuesday's Democratic primary, and is sure to win in November. Providence voters, way to go.

BEGALA: In our "rich and famous people are just like you and me" department, singer Whitney Houston is in trouble for turning on the sprinklers of her New Jersey mansion, then leaving for a recording session in Atlanta. The neighbors complained after the sprinklers ran for a day and a half. Ms. Houston faces a fine or six months in jail for violating a watering ban imposed because of a drought.

And actor Nick Nolte was arrested near Malibu yesterday for driving under the influence. Nolte, who is 61, may be contemplating it was a youthful indiscretion. The arresting officer says he didn't recognize Nolte at first, describing him as, quote: "drooling and disheveled." Sounds a lot like a rock band I used to listen to.

NOVAK: The Jim Traficant for Congress campaign is moving full speed ahead. Never mind that the former Ohio congressman has just started an eight-year stretch in federal prison. Never mind that he was expelled from the House after being convicted of bribery and corruption.

Traficant is on the ballot as an independent, and now has created a campaign committee. He says campaign chairman James Winaski (ph), I love Jim Traficant; I love everything he stands for. Well, please don't underestimate the power of an anti-IRS candidate.

NOVAK: We'll have him on CROSSFIRE, too. He'll come up to us from prison.

Buzz Aldrin was the second man ever to walk on the moon. Back when I was a kid, he was one of my heroes. I actually wrote him a fan letter; the only fan letter I think I ever wrote in my life. Somewhere I still have the autographed picture that he sent me in return.

Aldrin is now 72 years old, and lately a 30-something filmmaker has been harassing him, trying to prove that the moon landings were a hoax.

Well, this guy apparently lured Aldrin into a Beverly Hills hotel, reportedly had him pinned against the wall poking a Bible in the astronaut's face, demanding that Buzz swear on it that he had walked on the moon.

Well, Aldrin did better than that: He made the guy see stars by punching him in the jaw.

Way to go, Buzz. You were my hero as a kid, you're still my hero today.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Paul, what would Bill Clinton say if he knew you had a different hero?

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Coming up in our "Fireback" feature, I will respond to a dare from one of our less than loyal viewers. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Time now for "Fireback," when the viewers "Fireback" at us.

Our first e-mail from another one of those crazies in Canada.

Lloyd Creech from Richmond, Canada: "Is it just a coincidence that every time Bush makes a speech on the world scene, the stock market drops a couple of hundred points?"

Lloyd, like most Canadians, you got it wrong. The stock market didn't drop a single point during his speech. It had dropped earlier because of Mr. Greenspan's testimony.

NOVAK: That's called anticipation of the speech, right, because the market discounted, I think.

David Russell, in Houston, Texas, my hometown, or close to it, writes: "Though the most intelligent Americans understand that Paul Begala's picture is listed next to the word `hypocrisy' in any dictionary, to claim that Dick Cheney is dividing rather than uniting should make the purveyors of political mudslinging from the last administration extremely proud."

Well, Mr. Russell, I'm extremely proud that the vice president listened to me, acknowledged as much, that his interview with Rush Limbaugh on September 11 would have been divisive, and moved it to tomorrow.

I win.

NOVAK: I've got a terrible secret for you: He didn't even pay any attention to you, Paul.

BEGALA: He watches every night. He calls me at home: Begala, this is really bugging me...

BEGALA: Scott Reed of Delaware, Ohio says: "Paul, you have criticized Bush 41 for not taking care of Saddam during the Gulf War. Now you say Bush 43 should have U.N. backing before attacking Iraq. I don't think you're sure of your opinion until you hear a Republican, then you take the opposite side."

Mr. Reed, you got it exactly right.

BEGALA: You know, I have the same position as many thoughtful Republicans, as Senator Hagel, Senator Lugar. He's got to make his case that it's in our interests that he'll stop al Qaeda to invade Iraq. He hasn't done that yet.

Patricia Dail in Ermo, South Carolina writes: "If Paul Begala says one more time that Bush stole the election, I'm going to quit watching CROSSFIRE altogether!"

Well, Patricia, also -- this is Houston, I have you listed here in South Carolina: How about if I say, he swiped it, he lifted it, he ripped it off, he got the five finger discount, or the five justice discount with a rigged Supreme Court case.

Get used to it Patricia. Stay tuned.

BEGALA: Think of me, Patricia, I've got to sit across from him and listen to that stuff.

Question from the audience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I am Scott Farbish (ph) from Georgetown University -- George Washington, sorry.

NOVAK: Do you have a home?

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: ... beer night here at CROSSFIRE, so that's... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a Floridian, I'm tired of the constant mockery of our voting competency. Do you think government regulations on voting processes would alleviate such voting discrepancies?

NOVAK: I have a more of constructive idea. I think Florida ought to go back to territorial status for a while, and if they succeed, you can make them a state later.

BEGALA: You just need a governor that believes in democracy. I believe you'll get one come November, with Bill McBride.

NOVAK: Go ahead.

BEGALA: Yes sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi there, Bob and Paul. With respect to the war in Iraq...

NOVAK: What's your name? Your name and place?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Peter Stone (ph), from Modesto, California.

BEGALA: There you go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With respect to the war in Iraq, what proof, exactly, are Democrats waiting for? Do we need to wait until the smoke is billowing out of -- if the house has smoke billowing out of it, do we wait to call the fire department until it turns into an inferno?

Paul, are you waiting for it to turn into an inferno?

NOVAK: Well, I'll tell you there are about 30 countries -- are you a Gary Condit man from Modesto, by the way, or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ex-intern.

NOVAK: Oh, I see.

BEGALA: No, actually, my view is that he has to prove this will help us fight al Qaeda. I keep saying this. If this were like a campaign, I'd say, it's al Qaeda, stupid.

The president has not drawn any link, and when he has tried to, the intelligence agencies have told us it that it was false.

NOVAK: Question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Katelyn Harvey (ph); I'm from Floral Park, New York. And my question is, is the reason Bush is so determined to get Saddam Hussein is because he failed to catch Osama bin Laden?

He should finish one task before he moves onto another. NOVAK: Well, Miss New York, you don't even know whether he's caught Osama bin Laden. You don't know whether he's alive or dead. And stop putting out that Democratic pap.

NOVAK: Bush doesn't know either, more importantly.

And you're right: 87 percent of al Qaeda is still out there. They're still trying to target us. They want to kill us. They are bad guys. And when the president said that he would focus on them relentlessly, I cheered him.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He should keep that promise.

NOVAK: Last question.

BEGALA: Yes sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Willie Craig (ph) from Manchester, New Hampshire. I'm a New Hampshire Democrat, and I would like a D.C. internship. The only problem is that we have two Republican senators and two Republican congressmen. Can Shaheen take Sununu?

NOVAK: John E. Sununu will be the next senator from New Hampshire, and you can count on it.

NOVAK: Jeanne Shaheen will be the next Senator from New Hampshire, and she will help save Social Security, keep John Sununu from privatizing it. So you'll get your intern with her. Thanks for the question, though.

From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another addition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins immediately after a CNN News Alert.

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