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CNN Crossfire

Will Bush Get Congressional Approval for War With Iraq?; Will Supreme Court Weigh In on New Jersey Senate Race?

Aired October 04, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE: The war debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Military is not my first choice, but peace is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Will doing it the president's way be Congress' first choice?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: This expenditure of paper is nothing more than a blank check given to the president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: When it comes to New Jersey's Senate race...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: This is outrageous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: ... a lot of people are saying the same thing...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would hope the whole country would be outraged about this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: ... but for different reasons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's outrageous. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, who has made the "Police Blotter" this week?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, senators debate war and peace on Capitol Hill. The president and vice president raised dollars and cents in Maine and Georgia. And Campaign 2002, heads into its final month.

Also, we revisit the intersection of politics and the penal system by opening up CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter."

But first, you have the right to remain silent and to be informed on the latest political developments. Just the facts, ma'am: our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

The United States Senate today formally took up the life and death issue of war against Iraq. Young Americans may be asked to fight and kill and, god forbid, die for their country.

Both Democrats and Republicans in the Senate today treated the matter with the seriousness it deserves. But the presiding officer of the Senate, Dick Cheney, who received five draft deferments during the Vietnam War was AWOL today as well. He was raising special interest campaign donations for three unknown Republicans in Georgia.

President Bush, meanwhile, was also on the fund-raising trail, and then he will spend the weekend at his family's mansion in Maine. War may be hell, but partisan political fund-raising is a hell of a priority for this administration.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: But you're saying at least they weren't in Baghdad denouncing their on country, like prominent Democrats were the other day.

BEGALA: I'll take Maine over Baghdad any day.

CARLSON: Attorney General John Ashcroft called today a defining day in the war on terrorism. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) shoe bomber Richard Reid smirked his way through pleading guilty to all eight counts against him. Prosecutors will ask for a sentence of at least 60 years; all of them well deserved.

Taliban American John Walker Lindh was sentenced to 20 years in prison after reading, amid his own sniffles, a statements saying he had made a mistake, would never have signed on with terrorists if he had known he would get in trouble.

And authorities in Detroit and Portland have arrested four people on charges of conspiring to help the Taliban and al Qaeda wage war on the United States. Two other suspects are being sought overseas. You cannot blame the attorney general for wanting to celebrate. It's been a great day.

BEGALA: I can certainly blame the attorney general, and his U.S. attorney in Alexandria for giving al Qaeda terrorists secret documents in the Moussaoui case. The same guy today who was crowing that he got all of 20 years for John Walker Lindh last week gave secret documents to an acknowledged member of al Qaeda.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: No, no. If terrorists go to jail, you find a way to...

BEGALA: Terrorists get out secret documents. I think that is incompetence. And the political hack U.S. attorney ought to get fired.

Well you maybe didn't think the Bushes were serious about corporate form, did you? Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey Pitt is withdrawing his support from the man who has been favored to lead the federal agency to oversee the accounting industry.

John H. Biggs is a strong supporter of reform, whose appointment has been urged by experts, including Paul Volcker and Arthur Levitt. The "New York Times" reports today that Mr. Pitt has pulled his support from Mr. Biggs after the accounting agency, for which Pitt worked for many years, complained that Biggs is too tough.

President Bush today had no comment on the issue. But he would like you to know Saddam Hussein is an evil, evil man.

CARLSON: Actually, Saddam Hussein is an evil man, and to derive the war against Iraq as a purely political move is something I think you're going to regret once Americans start dying there. The president, agree with him or not, believes we ought to go to war with Iraq. And it's not a political move. And to say it, I think, is wrong.

BEGALA: I said he just discovered he was evil, and he did.

CARLSON: He's been saying that for a long time. Glad you're paying attention.

In news from fantasy land tonight, 64-year-old Betty Bullick (ph) has successfully sued Phillip Morris on the grounds she was tricked into believing smoking is healthy. Although she had been urged repeatedly by her doctor and members of her family to quit, and despite the fact that there has been a dire health warning printed in bold on the side of every single pack of cigarettes sold in the United States for the past 38 years, Bullick (ph) claims she didn't know cigarettes might make her sick.

And the jury, which apparently have been smoking as well, believed her. Bullick (ph) received $28 billion. That's more than the gross national product of many countries. Every one of those dollars will come not from some imaginary place called the tobacco industry, but directly from the American economy. And most of it will go not to Betty Bullick (ph), but to obscenely rich trial lawyers who will re-do their jets with it.

And from there, it will go directly to the Democratic Party, which is a political division of the obscenely rich trial lawyer community. Make you feel better?

BEGALA: I'll tell you what, Tucker, I do admire you that you can defend the merchants of death at America's tobacco corporation who kill people for a living...

CARLSON: I'm saying, you smoke cigarettes, you know they hurt you.

BEGALA: They make money by killing people. They ought to be ashamed; $28 billion is too light for them.

CARLSON: Paul, that's ridiculous. Keep it mellow.

BEGALA: In a meeting with north Florida legislators, Governor Jeb Bush actually joked about the case of Rilya Wilson. The missing little girl, Governor Bush's foster care system has been unable to find for some time now.

Governor Bush told the group he had, "juicy details" about the case and suggested that the girl's caregivers are lesbians. He then joked, "Bet you don't get that in Pensacola."

An attorney for the women said, "He's making jokes when there's still a missing baby here. Or doesn't he care?" The attorney also said the women are sisters and not a lesbian couple.

You know, what's this world coming to when you can't make a bigoted joke out of a missing baby? You know? Some people got no sense of humor.

CARLSON: I don't know what's bigoted about it. I don't think there's anything bigoted or...

BEGALA: Homophobic.

CARLSON: He didn't say anything was homophobic. I mean, he attacked Pensacola I guess. I understand that. And he didn't lose any children, it was the bureaucrats in the state agencies, as you know.

BEGALA: Who work for him.

CARLSON: He can't fire them because they're union members, as you know.

BEGALA: That's nonsense. He did fire one guy. He fired one guy and put a right wing hack in his place.

CARLSON: Not true, Paul.

BEGALA: Yes, it is.

CARLSON: Georgia Democrat Cynthia McKinney lost her seat in Congress last month, when voters finally grew tired of her attacks on Jews. Following her defeat, McKinney pledged to change her ways and now she has. She's now attacking Indians.

In an interview with "The Washington Times," McKinney blamed her loss on a letter she once wrote criticizing India. "Apparently this irritated the Indians," she said, "because they invested heavily in the effort to defeat me." McKinney went on to say that not only are Indians watching her every move and planning her destruction, but they have targeted some of her colleagues as well.

For those colleagues, the congresswoman had these words of advice: "Watch out. They're coming after you too." McKinney would have said more, but at this point in the interview men in white with nets arrived and took her away to rest, they said. And she needs the rest, Paul.

BEGALA: Well, she does. Now here's an instructive difference.

CARLSON: She's a proud Democrat. I should love her.

BEGALA: I, as a Democrat, have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Cynthia McKinney all of the crazy things she has said. Let's wait and see how our friends in the right wing do with Jerry Falwell and the hateful things that he says.

CARLSON: I don't think there's any comparison. For one thing...

BEGALA: No, Cynthia McKinney is...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: ... doesn't make laws, unlike Cynthia McKinney, who is a proud, proud Democrat.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: President Bush plans a comprehensive speech about Iraq Monday night. Needless to say, it will be in Cincinnati. The White House says that the speech will be newsworthy and the president will explain the U.S. case against Saddam Hussein. The president's address, of course, comes as Congress considers a use of force resolution.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight are democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, who joins us from Cleveland. And here with us in Washington is Republican Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, who is the vice chairman of the intelligence committee.

BEGALA: Senator Shelby, good to see you again sir.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: Thank you.

BEGALA: Thank you for joining us. Today, the Senate did take up the most important issue it can take up, while our president and vice president were off raising special interest money for the campaign. Now they would have us believe that the timing here has nothing to do with politics. It's so very important we must rush this vote right away 31 days before the election.

Well, if politics is not on their mind, why are they out raising money? Shouldn't they be here in Washington arguing their case with you and your fellow senators?

SHELBY: I don't know what the president or the vice president could do today or even next week while we debate the issues in the House and the Senate. They do what they need to do. Now they do travel the country, but all presidents and vice presidents have done it before to help their party in the time of need.

BEGALA: Well, in point of fact, the vice president certainly could preside over the Senate; the president could be making his case. And President Clinton, when we began the war in Kosovo, stopped all of his fund-raising, which he was criticized for at great length for doing too much political fund-raising.

This president has defeated his record, and has said that this is so vitally important, we've got to do it right away. But it's not so important that he shows up for the vote. Don't you think that's a little inappropriate?

SHELBY: I think the president has made his case, and he will make it again and again. As far as the timing, I think the timing is good, because the Congress, we don't know how long we're going to last up here, how many more weeks, literally. Are we going to be out? Will there be an actual conflict? Will we be engaged in a military action?

We could, but that could be weeks. It could be months ahead. But the Congress will more than likely not come back, Paul, until after January.

CARLSON: Now, Congressman Kucinich, the president is speaking in your state on Monday. He's expected to lay out the case for why the U.S. ought to go to war with Iraq. Is there anything he could say that would change your mind and put you on his team and Dick Gephardt's team?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, I'm hopeful that the United States will not launch a preemptive strike against Iraq, which would be in violation of international law. It would actually lead to instability in the region.

I'm hopeful that the United States will work through the U.N. for weapons inspections. And as we focus on weapons inspections, make sure that we get any and all weapons that may exist in Iraq, that may pose a threat to anywhere in the world, and to eliminate those weapons. That ought to be our first priority. CARLSON: OK. So it sounds like your mind is made up and closed. But I want to hit you with a quote from your leader in the House of Representatives, Dick Gephardt. Many Democrats -- I hope you're not among them -- that have implied that plans to go to war against Iraq are a political move on the part of the White House to achieve some advantage in the mid-term elections.

Pretty vulgar point of view, but Democrats have made it. Here's what Dick Gephardt says to that charge: "I'm a parent of three children. If I thought that some politician was playing with their lives for political purposes, I'd be morally outraged."

He shoots down the idea as ludicrous. I hope you agree with him.

KUCINICH: Well, the question here goes beyond politics. We're talking about war. And, in a sense, war should be above crass politics and it should be above elections. And it should really be about does America face an imminent threat from Iraq. And if I thought America faced an imminent threat maybe I'd be with Mr. Gephardt. However, no case has been presented which would suggest that.

Iraq, in fact, does not present an imminent threat. Iraq has no technology to reach America with anything they may have. And so I think that the point here is to keep working through the U.N., to be patient. When you have great power it requires great restraint.

BEGALA: Senator Shelby, you're the vice chairman of the intelligence committee. You have access to information you maybe can't share with our audience, but I want to ask you to answer that question. And one of your colleagues in "TIME" magazine this week says, in fact, the White House is -- some in the White House, and he named Carl Rove, the president's chief political adviser -- using this for political advantage.

What has changed on the ground in Iraq in the last six months or year to provoke an imminent threat against the United States of America?

SHELBY: First of all, I don't believe this is political in any way, despite the elections coming up. What's changed in the last six months? I can tell you what's happened in the last six weeks. Saddam Hussein is acquiring, is building, and going to have the ability to disperse weapons of mass destruction, such as chemical, biological for sure.

What we want to make sure he doesn't have and pray that he doesn't get ever is the nuclear option. If he does that, that will change the whole political equation in the Persian Gulf, the Middle East and everything else.

Should we wait? If we wait, we wait at our peril. I think we should not wait. I believe the events of September 11 a little over a year ago changed a lot of things like that.

We used to have the privilege or opportunity to wait until somebody struck us. And some people argue that. We don't have that today.

I think we've got to go where the problems come from and we've got to preempt them. And that's what the president is basically talking about.

BEGALA: Another of your colleagues, Senator Edward Kennedy, last week referenced back to his brother's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviet empire was, I think, even more evil than Saddam Hussein. They had real live nuclear weapons just 90 miles away from us. And Senator Kennedy argues his brother's policy of a blockade and not invading saved us from a nuclear disaster.

Why are we not pursuing other options?

SHELBY: Of course the Cuban Missile Crisis was 1962; that was 40 years ago. A lot of things have changed. And what has changed, we were dealing with nation states then. Cuba was a nation state, a sovereign state. The Soviet Union was our big would-be adversary at that time. They had a lot to lose in a confrontation, a nuclear confrontation.

I don't know that somebody like Saddam Hussein and his allies would ever think of it that way.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Kucinich, you probably saw this today in the "Wall Street Journal." Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, a Democrat, really one of the great Democrats in the United States, addressed, I think, your position on the war in Iraq and I want to read you what he said.

"No matter how laudable or well intended, the antiwar peace at almost any price is a loser for Democrats. It will stimulate the extreme left, no doubt about that. And they are the key to the primaries. They will put their money, their emotions, their make- believe president Martin Sheen and even Ms. Streisand vocal chords behind it."

He's basically saying you're bringing the party back to 1968 or 1972 and hurting it by taking this, in his words, "pretty extreme" left position on the war. Do you think that's true?

KUCINICH: I think we have to go beyond this question of politics. I mean we're about to be on a threshold of a war where there's no imminent threat that's been proven. And we need to make sure that America does not go it alone, because if we go it alone we're going to be left alone and stuck alone and have to rebuild alone.

I mean we've got to look at this in terms of what America's role in the world is today. In 1991, during the Gulf War, we worked with the world community. And we should work with the world community on matters of global security. This is beyond partisan politics; this is beyond inter-party politics.

This is about what's best for America. And no one has made the case that it's best for America for the United States to launch a preemptive strike against Iraq.

BEGALA: Congressman Kucinich, hold that thought. And Senator Shelby, we're going to come back to you too. Because when we come back, I'm going to ask when (UNINTELLIGIBLE) make the case on Monday night.

He's going to give a major address to the nation on Monday. And we're going to ask our guests what we can expect from it.

And then, later, can the Bush Rehnquist court resist the temptation of meddling in the New Jersey Senate race? Well, you know what they say, they always return to the scene of the crime.

And our quote of the day is from a preacher who is picking a fight with someone who has been dead for nearly 1,400 years. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

The United Nations chief weapons inspector says only loose ends stand in the way of resuming the hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Loose ends, apparently, like the Bush administration, which is still trying to build U.N. support for a tougher, tighter inspections regime.

Meanwhile, our president plans to address the nation on Monday after a restful weekend at the family mansion in Maine.

In the CROSSFIRE, Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, he's in Cleveland; and Senate Intelligence Committee Vice Chairman Richard Shelby from Alabama, he's here in our studio.

CARLSON: Mr. Kucinich, I want to ask you a number of questions. Before I do, I want to get back to something you said a minute ago about the world community and how we need the support of the world community. Is this the same world community that has stood by without doing anything, as Africa has destroyed itself over the last 40 years, as Bosnia and Kosovo took place right in the center of Europe, as Iraq just gave the bird to the rest of the world and developed these weapons of mass destruction?

I mean this is the same world community that has refused to intervene in places where people have been killed in genocide. I mean what does it mean to be a world community if you don't actually protect the world from people like Saddam Hussein?

KUCINICH: Well, first of all, the United Nations exists as a framework for the national law. It's not perfect. But the United States should not be in a position of having to be the policemen of the world. Because if we take it upon ourselves to do that, we're soon going to be isolated.

And no one has shown how a preemptive action by the United States would enhance world stability. We have a United Nations framework. The United States is one of the signatories to the U.N. charter.

We have helped create the United Nations. I don't think there's any other way to solve the problems of the world and provide for global security except through the U.N.

I'll make this clear. I will defend this country, I voted to defend this country, I take an oath to defend this country. If the country is under imminent threat we have to defend this country. But there's no imminent threat from Iraq.

BEGALA: Senator Shelby, first this question about going it alone. I suspect back home in Alabama that's what people are most worried about, about America becoming the world's policemen. Are we going to go it alone?

SHELBY: Well, first of all, we shouldn't be the world's policemen. But we should look after our security interests wherever they are in the world. Are we going to go it alone? I don't believe at the end of the debate in the U.N. that we'll be going it alone. I could be wrong.

But I believe the U.N. is going to have to step up to the plate, so to speak. Is the U.N. going to be meaningful? Is it going to be what we created the U.N. for and hoped it would be, or is it going to be a debating society?

A lot of us look back in history to the League of Nations. The League of Nations became impotent and did nothing in 1936. And it could have prevented, I believe the Second World War, but they didn't.

This is a great opportunity for the U.N., but they're going to have to stand up finally. They have been defied by Saddam Hussein, their resolutions. And I believe President Bush laid it out pretty well. And the debate coming up next week -- we've already started it -- is going to put a lot of that information out.

BEGALA: Will the president do that on Monday night? President Kennedy, at the U.N., had his U.N. ambassador show photographs of those missiles in Cuba. Why won't the president come to us, and to the rest of the world if they want to see it, and show us the proof of this imminent threat that he tells us about?

SHELBY: Well, I'm -- you're talking about imminent threat, and how do you define imminent and so forth. You're never going to have -- dealing with Saddam Hussein -- a situation where someone goes into the shed and says, gosh, we've got photographs of four nuclear bombs probably the size of what we used in the Second World War.

You have to make deductions in what we have. What we do not want him to do is get to the point that he has a nuclear weapon. And he will get there and he will get there in months if he has (UNINTELLIGIBLE) material. And he can buy it; he's got the money.

CARLSON: Congressman, we're almost out of time. But I just want to ask you, quickly, virtually everybody agrees that it was wrong, very wrong for three Democrats to go to Baghdad last week and attack the president of the United States from enemy territory on the very day that Iraqi missiles were being fired at American airmen. Do you agree that it was wrong?

KUCINICH: I think that the members that went there, particularly Congressman McDermott, have reassessed their position of what was said. However, let it be said also that this is a time for America to begin to reassess its world policies and find a way to make peace inevitable.

War should not be inevitable. We have to rethink our foreign policy and, I think, get away from this idea of launching preemptive strikes, which could be very destructive and set America on a path that would be very difficult for future generations.

CARLSON: OK. Congressman Kucinich from Ohio, thank you. Senator Shelby, here in Washington, thank you very much.

SHELBY: Thank you.

CARLSON: Another one of America's most colorful politicians is about to join many of his colleagues behind bars. Details are coming up in the CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter."

Also, dirty your hands by taking up the U.S. Senate race in New Jersey.

But next, our quote of the day comes from a man who has been officially uninvited to next year's post-Ramadan barbecue. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

You know one of the more encouraging developments in religion in the last century was the ecumenical movement. Instead of hurling condemnations at each other, people of good faith in different religions have been trying to come together exploring what we have in common in our search for God.

But since September 11, a few right-wing TV preachers have been sounding more like they yearn for the good old days of the crusades. Among them: Reverend Jerry Falwell. In a taping for "60 Minutes" he insulted and offended a billion Muslims all over the world and, once again, revealed his own startling ignorance all in just six words.

Those six words are our quote of the day: "I think Mohammed was a terrorist."

CARLSON: You know, Paul, it's pretty easy to beat up on Jerry Falwell. But I hardly think that Jerry Falwell represents a threat to the world's Muslims. Radical Islam represents a real threat to the world's Christians. They're being -- 40 Christians have been killed in Pakistan in the last couple of months by radical Muslims.

I'm just saying, Jerry Falwell, you can write him off, he's irrelevant, this is part of his own publicity efforts. He doesn't represent anybody beyond his little college down there in Lynchburg, Virginia. And I just don't see him as terrifying as actual terrorists out there committing murder in the name of religion.

BEGALA: He's not as bad as a murderer, but I want to see what our president says now, because...

CARLSON: Why would the president even...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He's like this with Falwell. He's terribly close to Jerry Falwell. We're going to see if the president will speak out against this kind of hate speech.

CARLSON: Hate speech.

BEGALA: It's hate speech.

CARLSON: No it isn't. It's ridiculous speech.

BEGALA: How a profit of an ancient, honorable religion is a terrorist?

CARLSON: Well, that doesn't mean -- it's not a hate speech. Give me a break.

BEGALA: His opinion is hateful.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: New Jersey State Democratic Committee today, respectfully asked the United States Supreme Court to butt out of the Garden State's Senate election. The committee filed a brief arguing that Republican Doug Forrester's preference to compete with an opponent who pulled out of the race is no basis for a federal constitutional claim. But perhaps the New Jersey Democrats missed the case of Bush versus Gore in which the Court did intervene to uphold the lofty constitutional principle of the Republican Party's right to hold power.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, Democratic strategist Doug Hattaway, along with Republican consultant Charlie Black.

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

Charlie, good to see you.

CARLSON: Doug Hattaway, you know, I learned something new this week. Obviously, I knew, we all knew the Republicans loathe Senator Robert Torricelli. I had no idea that Democrats hated him even more.

And we know this because his replacement is his arch-enemy, pick number four, Senator Lautenberg. Who he hates more than anything, it's an obvious slap to Senator Torricelli.

But I want to read you the quote that Senator Lautenberg uttered when he got out the first time in 1999: "The fact of the matter is the years I spent in the Senate have been a large personal inconvenience and effort."

This guy is 78 years old; he didn't like it the first time. He is bored. He has nothing to do. He wants to get back in.

DOUG HATTAWAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: And he'll beat Forrester in a landslide.

CARLSON: But you're embarrassed about it, you've got to be.

HATTAWAY: The Republican position in all of this situation is that the voters in New Jersey should come out and anoint Doug Forrester. I think this election is supposed to be about giving voters a real choice, decide whether they want the former senator or the pretend senator-to-be. But I think they will choose Lautenberg, despite things like this, because Forrester is wrong on just about every issue of importance to people in New Jersey. Some people living near toxic sites and they ought to pay to clean them up ...

CARLSON: OK, but wait.

HATTAWAY: ...rather than the polluters.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Just back this up. Wait, wait, hold on. Let me assess this question here. And I sort of agree with you that people ought to be able to choose a real candidate. On the other hand, John McCain said something today that I do want you to respond to.

"Already," he said, "over 1,000 men and women serving overseas in the U.S. Armed Forces have received ballots ... no voter, whether he or she votes by military ballot or absentee or in person on election day should be disenfranchised by late changes."

This is not something you could ignore.

HATTAWAY: They should all get a ballot. And if they're disenfranchised it is because the Republicans are trying to drag this through the court and they won't get their new ballots in time. If you guys let the voters have a choice and send them their new ballots, they will be fine.

BEGALA: In point of fact, the attorney for all 21 county clerks in New Jersey testified before the court that already 106 ballots had gone out. With all respect for Senator McCain, I actually think the attorney for the courts knows better And I think those 106 can be replaced.

But let me get to this issue that Doug raised here, Charlie Black, which is toxic waste. It's as big a problem as New Jersey has. Frank Lautenberg, one of the great champions of the Superfund against Doug Forrester, who told "The Newark Star Ledger" -- let me read you what he said to "The Star Ledger", the biggest paper in the state.

"The Republican," Mr. Forrester said "if left to him, his tax plan would replace the old method for funding the cleanup of the nation's abandoned Superfund sites by taxing only petroleum and chemical companies. Forrester also said he would support dedicating part of the federal income tax to help foot the bill."

So, not corporate polluters, but people pay. This is what Doug Forrester offers for New Jersey?

CHARLES BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Forrester is trying to come up with a new plan to clean up the Superfund sites. Because only 10 percent of the sites in New Jersey have been cleaned up as long as you have these two Democratic senators.

Actually, I think Forrester is going to beat Lautenberg. First of all, you are going to have a lot of rebellion from the voters about changing the rules in the middle of the game, violating the rule of law.

But Doug Forrester is a good candidate. He's a moderate Republican. He's a successful businessman. He worked for Tom Kean, the most popular Republican governor in the history of the state. He managed the budget and the state pension for Kean. He has spoken out on all of these issues and has plans for the state. He has gotten himself fairly well known. And I think he's popular.

You know, the Democrats are being too cute by half. I think Lautenberg will lose.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about those two words you used, "moderate Republican". Mr. Forrester was specifically asked whether he described himself as a moderate Republican. He said, no. He's not a moderate Republican. In fact, he's a right-wing Republican.

BLACK: Well, he's a George Bush Republican.

BEGALA: He's a right-wing Republican by his own...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: No, he's not!

BEGALA: What do you think he meant, Charlie, when he said, no, I'm not a moderate. Do you really think he meant I'm a liberal?

BLACK: Well, maybe that he's pro-choice maybe. I don't know what he meant. But he is pro-choice.

BEGALA: If you think that, what do you think he meant, when he said I'm not a moderate Republican what do you expect he meant?

BLACK: I don't know. I don't know him. And I haven't read everything he said.

BEGALA: Oh, come on! BLACK: But I'll tell you this, he has taken positions that actually -- actually are on environment, on Superfund. He wants to spend more money on it than Republicans have proposed in the past. He's pro-choice. That's not a right-wing Republican, Paul.

He fits that state pretty well. And I think a lot of the voters there, the swing voters, are sick and tired of the Democrats playing these games.

(CROSSTALK)

Defend a crook as long as he's defensible, then change rules.

CARLSON: They had a choice. It was a choice endorsed by your party and perhaps even by you, I hope if that's true you'll admit it. Torricelli, Senator Torricelli, up until Monday was the anointed choice of his party. He gave a official Democratic Party radio response to the president of the United States last Saturday. This, when there was credible overwhelming evidence that he committed felonies while U.S. senator, I want to know how you explain that.

HATTAWAY: And Doug Forrester is calling on him to do what? Drop out of the race.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Wait a second. You might think, oh, this is ancient history. This was Saturday.

HATTAWAY: Right.

CARLSON: The party said, yes, you give the official -- you represent our party in an official capacity to respond to the president. How could you back someone like that?

(CROSSTALK)

HATTAWAY: The Republicans repeatedly call on Torricelli to drop out of the race. He does and you want to keep him on the ballot, why? Because you guys want the voters to anoint your candidate rather than give them a choice, as what elections are supposed to be all about.

BLACK: It took a lot of guts for Forrester to get in the race when he did, when Torricelli was an overwhelming favorite. Nobody else wanted to run against Torricelli. He ran; he ran a good campaign. He beat him fair and square. And now he's got to go out and beat somebody else.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Aren't one-party elections better suited for Castro's Cuba than the United States of America?

BLACK: Well, you know, you may have a point, Paul. And I just think the guy we have running against Senator Dorgan (ph) is doing bad and I'd like to replace him. The guy we have running against Joe Biden is doing bad, I'd like to replace him.

(CROSSTALK)

For that matter, the Redskins might lose to Tennessee Sunday, let's just run the Eagles in there.

BEGALA: Amen!

All right. We will take a quick break. We will be right back. Our viewers are itching to get into the New Jersey debate. A couple get their chance later on in our "Fireback" segment.

Next, the Democrats have absolutely no shame. When you see this official Democratic Party cartoon, you're guaranteed to be outraged, revolted, get your airsickness bag.

And, in the CROSSFIRE (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Kentucky's governor says he's living proof that the truth always comes out sooner or later.

Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are coming through, as we always do, from the George Washington University, here in Downtown Washington.

Al Gore delivered a lecture on the economy this week, in case you missed it. Everyone's eyes glazed over until the question and answer period when Gore admitted he no longer wears his wedding ring because he has put on so much weight. It won't fit. Is it time we stopped despising Gore and simply agree to feel sorry for him?

We're talking politics with Democratic strategist and former Gore campaign spokesman Doug Hattaway and Republican consultant Charlie Black..

BEGALA: Guys, let's go to the story of the day, the funniest ad of this election season. My party, the Democrats, are running a new ad. It's a cartoon depiction of the president's position on Social Security privatization. Well, let me show you what it looks like. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Bush and the Republicans still want to push their privatization plans through Congress. And they will, if you let them. Trust me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BEGALA: Well, Charlie, there it is. That's the Republican position is to privatize part of Social Security, which would send granny right down that roller coaster of the Dow Jones, right?

BLACK: Well, Paul, this is the most outrageous thing the DNC has done since your contract expired. This is insulting to senior citizens as well as being insulting to the president. Plus, it's a lie. That's not Bush's position.

Now, there is president who proposed having the government invested Social Security funds in the stock market -- it was Bill Clinton! You were there when he proposed it. He backed off of it later, but George Bush never proposed that.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: He proposed letting people keep some of their payroll taxes and invest in conservative options at their own will, if they wanted to. That's all he ever proposed. Please don't insult these old people. They're not stupid.

CARLSON: Why -- and Doug Hattaway, I mean this is all - I mean it is sort of amusing. If it was flipped, of course, Democrats would be probably suing.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But this strategy is scaring old people. And the fact, is the Democrats have no plan at all for salvaging Social Security. If they do, I want to know what it is. Give me the two sentence answer to that. What's the plan?

HATTAWAY: The ad makes a very effective point. And that is the Republican plan to privatize Social Security.

CARLSON: You're not going to answer that?

HATTAWAY: Look, the Democrats were paying off the national debt, shoring up Social Security Trust Fund. You guys blew the debt, now you're spending Social Security money on everything else under the sun.

CARLSON: More scary stuff, but what is the plan to save it now?

HATTAWAY: The plan --?

CARLSON: Oh, there isn't one?

HATTAWAY: Oh, nice (ph).

CARLSON: Oh, sorry, OK.

HATTAWAY: This ad makes a very effective point. The problem - what they don't really like about the ad is that it puts Social security back on the radar screen. The Republican plan is that you not talk about the truth of their plan, which is privatize the system. Put money in the stock market. Everybody knows benefits will be cut. The only reason these guys are riled up about it. Is because it puts it right on the radar screen. They didn't want to talk about it before the election. And here we are talking about it.

BEGALA: I'm going answer Tucker's question here. I won't just give you two cents, I'll give you two words, our plan to save Social Security: vote Democratic. Why? Because President Bush does not just want to privatize part of Social Security, Charlie, he wants to privatize all of it. His own words from "The Houston Chronicle." Let me read you what Governor Bush then said on May the 17th in "The Houston Chronicle." "Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush on Tuesday said his plan to create private savings account could be the first step toward a complete privatization of Social Security. It's going to take a while to transition to a system where personal savings accounts are the predominant part of this investment vehicle, Bush said. This is a step toward a completely different world, and an important step."

Bush wants to privatize Social Security. That should be a very scary thought, isn't it?

BLACK: No, his point being that if you let people keep some of their payroll tax money, which they get less in a 2 percent return out of the Social Security system later, and it works with conservative investments that they get a 4, 5 or 6 percent return.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: We're talking about a 100-year experiment here. If that works, then people are going to want more than 2 percent of their payroll taxes to be invested at their own will under their own decisions. That's all he's saying.

(CROSSTALK)

HATTAWAY: ... up to a third you're talking about.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: You guys are nonsense.

BEGALA: Look at the Bush commission report. It says it plain.

BLACK: It does not say that.

BEGALA: Charlie Black, Republican strategist. Doug Hattaway, Democratic strategist. Thank you both very much.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, a longtime Texas Longhorn fan breaks the faith. On CROSSFIRE. But first, see whose fingerprints end up in the hall of shame and in our CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter." Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: The good, the bad, the undeniably guilty. It's time for the most hard-boiled segment in television, the CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter." When public figures intersect with law enforcement, CROSSFIRE is there. Kentucky's home grown Casanova, known to voters as Democratic Governor Paul Patton, says leakers in his administration ought to confess, because the truth always comes out. And Patton says he should know. The governor denied, then admitted having an affair with nursing home operator Tina Connor (ph). She says she got tips from Patton's office when state inspectors were coming, until the affair ended and state officials started harassing her. The governor denies any abuse of power, but investors have subpoenaed boxes of records looking for evidence. Meanwhile, Patton said he won't resign because it would be -- quote -- irresponsible. In other words, if he resigns, the former girlfriend would have won.

BEGALA: Well we should have known it would only be a matter time before we got the made for TV movie about the Michael Skakel-Martha Moxley murder case. You know the one cracked by that crusading author and famous O.J. police detective, Mark Fuhrman.

Oh, you don't remember that? Well, neither do the people involved who are furious that the script paints Fuhrman's book, "Murder in Greenwich," as the driving force that finally brought Skakel to justice. The prosecutor who was actually involved says -- quote -- "That's demeaning to the entire division of criminal justice of Connecticut." He adds Fuhrman is trying to take credit for things he simply did not do. Mark Fuhrman lied? No.

CARLSON: You know, Paul. Unlike a lot of conservatives, I like the Kennedy saga. I think it's interesting.

Former Louisiana Governor Edwin Edwards' days as a free man are alast numbered. Edwards has been ordered to report to prison by October 21 to begin serving a 10-year sentence for corruption. Edwards was hoping to remain free while appealing his conviction -- he'll definitely take a few trips to Vegas -- was philosophical about the short time he has left.

Quote -- "that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'll do generally what any person would do in if he knew he had to abandoned his life for a long period of time."

Why is it the most interesting, colorful and quotable politicians -- the really amusing Democrats -- always end up behind bars, leaving only the Al Gores of this world?

BEGALA: May be they don't have good enough lawyers like the Republicans.

CARLSON: It's sad.

BEGALA: Former Enron Chief Financial Officer Andrew Fastow has taken up the latest Wall Street dance craze -- it's called "The Perp Walk." Put your right hand here, you put your left hand there. The sheriff slaps the handcuffs on you and hauls you off to court. That's what it's all about -- or is it?

It's been nearly a year since Enron went "el busto," and Fastow is only the second Enron executive to be charged. Meanwhile, Bush buddy and former CEO "Kennyboy" Lay -- the Kingpin of Enron, himself -- hasn't even received so much as a parking ticket from his old buddy, George W. Bush.

CARLSON: The president doesn't arrest people. I'm not sure we -- maybe if you were to go back to Civics class...

BEGALA: You were just crowing about what a wonderful job John Ashcroft's doing on terrorism.

CARLSON: Right, he's not the president, either. We can talk about this after the show.

But I must say these guys will all go to prison. Ken Lay will be charged. And I'm not sure anything short of execution would make you feel better. I mean, they got busted. They're in trouble. They'll pay for it.

BEGALA: Maybe he'll just time it for the election.

Next, it's your turn to "Fire Back" at us. One of our viewers who's dreamed up a 2004 ticket that could be Tucker Carlson's worst nightmare. Stay tuned to find out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Fire Back." Let's go to the e-mail bag.

Adam in South Brunswick, New Jersey writes: "We are entitled to an election that is contested. Maybe Forrester and the Republicans should focus on actually running a campaign instead of crying like a bunch of babies. This isn't Florida."

Actually, Charlie Black was saying that to himself. So it's...

CARLSON: Really, I'm not sure Forrester was the candidate who cried during a news conference. Oh sorry, that was Robert Torricelli.

BEGALA: He's out, he's out.

CARLSON: I did dig the crime though.

Gordon from Greensboro, North Carolina writes: "Tucker if you think Begala is up in arms about the Republicans trying to block replacing the Torch, wait until he finds out the electoral college selects the president."

Let's not tell him.

BEGALA: No it doesn't. The Supreme Court does, appointed by Bush's daddy. That's why -- Cathy V. in El Segundo, California writes: "Paul, I don't think the Democrats have anything to worry about in 2004. The way Bush is running things, especially the economy, anyone will look better than him in the next election. Maybe we can get a Carville-Begala ticket going." Cathy, you know that was an ego moment until you got the order wrong. This is clearly a typo in Cathy's e-mail. The order is completely wrong. Begala-Carville.

CARLSON: You know what happens? Once this -- Pat Buchanan, I mean -- once you're a talk show host it's just like the next step to be president.

Bob Hammons of San Antonio writes: "I've been a Texas Longhorn for 55 of my 69 years. But after hearing Paul Begala say he went to Texas and is also a Longhorn fan, I've decided to start cheering for Texas A&M."

BEGALA: You know what they tell a smart guy...

CARLSON: Look at that. You just wrecked like a 55 -- that guy's life.

BEGALA: You know what they tell a smart guy at A&M? Hi you, stranger. You know, they're not the best school in the world.

CARSON: Little Texas joke. Yes, sir?

BEGALA: Yes, sir?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: How are you doing? My name's John Criscolo (ph), I'm from Point Pleasant, New Jersey. I was just wondering, that if you think the new Democrats get their way with the New Jersey elections, will we be able to read the ballots this time?

CARLSON: Of course not. Of course not. The idea -- I mean you see here in Washington, D.C. we're just sort of -- everyone of those butterfly ballots was misread by a Democrat. That tells you something.

BEGALA: Well, no. Thousands of them were Jews who voted for Buchanan. The Supreme Court said so. Yes, of course we should have an election. It's an old-fashion notion that used to happen in America before 2000, that whoever gets the most votes wins. It's a novel concept. I say we go back to it.

Yes, sir?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jonathan Fiedler, I'm from Sliver Spring, Maryland. My comment is I think the Republicans should be thrilled by Al Gore's recent speech on the economy as it represents (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of a coming out party for 2004. Although I hope my Democratic Party has better sense than to nominate him again.

CARLSON: Oh, come on. Al Gore -- well if you listen to Paul, he is president, just nobody knows it. But Al Gore deserves to be the Democratic nominee. He was vice president for eight years, he was a senator taken very seriously for a number of years before that, a member of Congress before that. This guy's earned it. And if they knock him off the ticket for someone they think has a better chance of winning, it'll be a total betrayal and an outrage. BEGALA: Not to sound like a broken record, but we're going to have an election, we're going to let the people decide. This is the recurring theme -- this is why we're the Democratic Party, instead of the Plutocratic party.

CARLSON: Al Gore-Al Sharpton, 2004. I'm behind the ticket.

BEGALA: Yes, ma'am?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, Mary Cornaby (ph) from Washington, D.C. Given the New Jersey Supreme Court has already decided that Senator Torricelli can be removed from the ballot, and given that the New Jersey Supreme Court is comprised of mostly Republican appointees, and that they were unanimous in their interpretation of New Jersey law, why should the Supreme Court get involved?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Four of the seven justices were appointed by Christie Whitman -- who's in the Bush administration. They did vote unanimously. And just because a state court interpreting state law in a state election should have the final word? No...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Actually, Paul. Sorry to inject fact here, but the legislature determines the rules of an election. We're back to Civics class again.

BEGALA: By passing a law, Tucker, that the courts then interprets.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: The law is really clear. And Torricelli fell without -- outside of the law. OK? It's too late to take his name off the ballot according to New Jersey state law.

BEGALA: Tucker Carlson knows New Jersey state law better than seven justices of the New Jersey Supreme Court.

CARLSON: I'm a expert on it.

BEGALA: From the left, Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next time, that would be on Monday. Right now, have a great weekend.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Will Supreme Court Weigh In on New Jersey Senate Race?>


Aired October 4, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE: The war debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Military is not my first choice, but peace is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Will doing it the president's way be Congress' first choice?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: This expenditure of paper is nothing more than a blank check given to the president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: When it comes to New Jersey's Senate race...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: This is outrageous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: ... a lot of people are saying the same thing...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would hope the whole country would be outraged about this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: ... but for different reasons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's outrageous. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, who has made the "Police Blotter" this week?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, senators debate war and peace on Capitol Hill. The president and vice president raised dollars and cents in Maine and Georgia. And Campaign 2002, heads into its final month.

Also, we revisit the intersection of politics and the penal system by opening up CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter."

But first, you have the right to remain silent and to be informed on the latest political developments. Just the facts, ma'am: our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

The United States Senate today formally took up the life and death issue of war against Iraq. Young Americans may be asked to fight and kill and, god forbid, die for their country.

Both Democrats and Republicans in the Senate today treated the matter with the seriousness it deserves. But the presiding officer of the Senate, Dick Cheney, who received five draft deferments during the Vietnam War was AWOL today as well. He was raising special interest campaign donations for three unknown Republicans in Georgia.

President Bush, meanwhile, was also on the fund-raising trail, and then he will spend the weekend at his family's mansion in Maine. War may be hell, but partisan political fund-raising is a hell of a priority for this administration.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: But you're saying at least they weren't in Baghdad denouncing their on country, like prominent Democrats were the other day.

BEGALA: I'll take Maine over Baghdad any day.

CARLSON: Attorney General John Ashcroft called today a defining day in the war on terrorism. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) shoe bomber Richard Reid smirked his way through pleading guilty to all eight counts against him. Prosecutors will ask for a sentence of at least 60 years; all of them well deserved.

Taliban American John Walker Lindh was sentenced to 20 years in prison after reading, amid his own sniffles, a statements saying he had made a mistake, would never have signed on with terrorists if he had known he would get in trouble.

And authorities in Detroit and Portland have arrested four people on charges of conspiring to help the Taliban and al Qaeda wage war on the United States. Two other suspects are being sought overseas. You cannot blame the attorney general for wanting to celebrate. It's been a great day.

BEGALA: I can certainly blame the attorney general, and his U.S. attorney in Alexandria for giving al Qaeda terrorists secret documents in the Moussaoui case. The same guy today who was crowing that he got all of 20 years for John Walker Lindh last week gave secret documents to an acknowledged member of al Qaeda.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: No, no. If terrorists go to jail, you find a way to...

BEGALA: Terrorists get out secret documents. I think that is incompetence. And the political hack U.S. attorney ought to get fired.

Well you maybe didn't think the Bushes were serious about corporate form, did you? Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey Pitt is withdrawing his support from the man who has been favored to lead the federal agency to oversee the accounting industry.

John H. Biggs is a strong supporter of reform, whose appointment has been urged by experts, including Paul Volcker and Arthur Levitt. The "New York Times" reports today that Mr. Pitt has pulled his support from Mr. Biggs after the accounting agency, for which Pitt worked for many years, complained that Biggs is too tough.

President Bush today had no comment on the issue. But he would like you to know Saddam Hussein is an evil, evil man.

CARLSON: Actually, Saddam Hussein is an evil man, and to derive the war against Iraq as a purely political move is something I think you're going to regret once Americans start dying there. The president, agree with him or not, believes we ought to go to war with Iraq. And it's not a political move. And to say it, I think, is wrong.

BEGALA: I said he just discovered he was evil, and he did.

CARLSON: He's been saying that for a long time. Glad you're paying attention.

In news from fantasy land tonight, 64-year-old Betty Bullick (ph) has successfully sued Phillip Morris on the grounds she was tricked into believing smoking is healthy. Although she had been urged repeatedly by her doctor and members of her family to quit, and despite the fact that there has been a dire health warning printed in bold on the side of every single pack of cigarettes sold in the United States for the past 38 years, Bullick (ph) claims she didn't know cigarettes might make her sick.

And the jury, which apparently have been smoking as well, believed her. Bullick (ph) received $28 billion. That's more than the gross national product of many countries. Every one of those dollars will come not from some imaginary place called the tobacco industry, but directly from the American economy. And most of it will go not to Betty Bullick (ph), but to obscenely rich trial lawyers who will re-do their jets with it.

And from there, it will go directly to the Democratic Party, which is a political division of the obscenely rich trial lawyer community. Make you feel better?

BEGALA: I'll tell you what, Tucker, I do admire you that you can defend the merchants of death at America's tobacco corporation who kill people for a living...

CARLSON: I'm saying, you smoke cigarettes, you know they hurt you.

BEGALA: They make money by killing people. They ought to be ashamed; $28 billion is too light for them.

CARLSON: Paul, that's ridiculous. Keep it mellow.

BEGALA: In a meeting with north Florida legislators, Governor Jeb Bush actually joked about the case of Rilya Wilson. The missing little girl, Governor Bush's foster care system has been unable to find for some time now.

Governor Bush told the group he had, "juicy details" about the case and suggested that the girl's caregivers are lesbians. He then joked, "Bet you don't get that in Pensacola."

An attorney for the women said, "He's making jokes when there's still a missing baby here. Or doesn't he care?" The attorney also said the women are sisters and not a lesbian couple.

You know, what's this world coming to when you can't make a bigoted joke out of a missing baby? You know? Some people got no sense of humor.

CARLSON: I don't know what's bigoted about it. I don't think there's anything bigoted or...

BEGALA: Homophobic.

CARLSON: He didn't say anything was homophobic. I mean, he attacked Pensacola I guess. I understand that. And he didn't lose any children, it was the bureaucrats in the state agencies, as you know.

BEGALA: Who work for him.

CARLSON: He can't fire them because they're union members, as you know.

BEGALA: That's nonsense. He did fire one guy. He fired one guy and put a right wing hack in his place.

CARLSON: Not true, Paul.

BEGALA: Yes, it is.

CARLSON: Georgia Democrat Cynthia McKinney lost her seat in Congress last month, when voters finally grew tired of her attacks on Jews. Following her defeat, McKinney pledged to change her ways and now she has. She's now attacking Indians.

In an interview with "The Washington Times," McKinney blamed her loss on a letter she once wrote criticizing India. "Apparently this irritated the Indians," she said, "because they invested heavily in the effort to defeat me." McKinney went on to say that not only are Indians watching her every move and planning her destruction, but they have targeted some of her colleagues as well.

For those colleagues, the congresswoman had these words of advice: "Watch out. They're coming after you too." McKinney would have said more, but at this point in the interview men in white with nets arrived and took her away to rest, they said. And she needs the rest, Paul.

BEGALA: Well, she does. Now here's an instructive difference.

CARLSON: She's a proud Democrat. I should love her.

BEGALA: I, as a Democrat, have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Cynthia McKinney all of the crazy things she has said. Let's wait and see how our friends in the right wing do with Jerry Falwell and the hateful things that he says.

CARLSON: I don't think there's any comparison. For one thing...

BEGALA: No, Cynthia McKinney is...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: ... doesn't make laws, unlike Cynthia McKinney, who is a proud, proud Democrat.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: President Bush plans a comprehensive speech about Iraq Monday night. Needless to say, it will be in Cincinnati. The White House says that the speech will be newsworthy and the president will explain the U.S. case against Saddam Hussein. The president's address, of course, comes as Congress considers a use of force resolution.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight are democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, who joins us from Cleveland. And here with us in Washington is Republican Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, who is the vice chairman of the intelligence committee.

BEGALA: Senator Shelby, good to see you again sir.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: Thank you.

BEGALA: Thank you for joining us. Today, the Senate did take up the most important issue it can take up, while our president and vice president were off raising special interest money for the campaign. Now they would have us believe that the timing here has nothing to do with politics. It's so very important we must rush this vote right away 31 days before the election.

Well, if politics is not on their mind, why are they out raising money? Shouldn't they be here in Washington arguing their case with you and your fellow senators?

SHELBY: I don't know what the president or the vice president could do today or even next week while we debate the issues in the House and the Senate. They do what they need to do. Now they do travel the country, but all presidents and vice presidents have done it before to help their party in the time of need.

BEGALA: Well, in point of fact, the vice president certainly could preside over the Senate; the president could be making his case. And President Clinton, when we began the war in Kosovo, stopped all of his fund-raising, which he was criticized for at great length for doing too much political fund-raising.

This president has defeated his record, and has said that this is so vitally important, we've got to do it right away. But it's not so important that he shows up for the vote. Don't you think that's a little inappropriate?

SHELBY: I think the president has made his case, and he will make it again and again. As far as the timing, I think the timing is good, because the Congress, we don't know how long we're going to last up here, how many more weeks, literally. Are we going to be out? Will there be an actual conflict? Will we be engaged in a military action?

We could, but that could be weeks. It could be months ahead. But the Congress will more than likely not come back, Paul, until after January.

CARLSON: Now, Congressman Kucinich, the president is speaking in your state on Monday. He's expected to lay out the case for why the U.S. ought to go to war with Iraq. Is there anything he could say that would change your mind and put you on his team and Dick Gephardt's team?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, I'm hopeful that the United States will not launch a preemptive strike against Iraq, which would be in violation of international law. It would actually lead to instability in the region.

I'm hopeful that the United States will work through the U.N. for weapons inspections. And as we focus on weapons inspections, make sure that we get any and all weapons that may exist in Iraq, that may pose a threat to anywhere in the world, and to eliminate those weapons. That ought to be our first priority. CARLSON: OK. So it sounds like your mind is made up and closed. But I want to hit you with a quote from your leader in the House of Representatives, Dick Gephardt. Many Democrats -- I hope you're not among them -- that have implied that plans to go to war against Iraq are a political move on the part of the White House to achieve some advantage in the mid-term elections.

Pretty vulgar point of view, but Democrats have made it. Here's what Dick Gephardt says to that charge: "I'm a parent of three children. If I thought that some politician was playing with their lives for political purposes, I'd be morally outraged."

He shoots down the idea as ludicrous. I hope you agree with him.

KUCINICH: Well, the question here goes beyond politics. We're talking about war. And, in a sense, war should be above crass politics and it should be above elections. And it should really be about does America face an imminent threat from Iraq. And if I thought America faced an imminent threat maybe I'd be with Mr. Gephardt. However, no case has been presented which would suggest that.

Iraq, in fact, does not present an imminent threat. Iraq has no technology to reach America with anything they may have. And so I think that the point here is to keep working through the U.N., to be patient. When you have great power it requires great restraint.

BEGALA: Senator Shelby, you're the vice chairman of the intelligence committee. You have access to information you maybe can't share with our audience, but I want to ask you to answer that question. And one of your colleagues in "TIME" magazine this week says, in fact, the White House is -- some in the White House, and he named Carl Rove, the president's chief political adviser -- using this for political advantage.

What has changed on the ground in Iraq in the last six months or year to provoke an imminent threat against the United States of America?

SHELBY: First of all, I don't believe this is political in any way, despite the elections coming up. What's changed in the last six months? I can tell you what's happened in the last six weeks. Saddam Hussein is acquiring, is building, and going to have the ability to disperse weapons of mass destruction, such as chemical, biological for sure.

What we want to make sure he doesn't have and pray that he doesn't get ever is the nuclear option. If he does that, that will change the whole political equation in the Persian Gulf, the Middle East and everything else.

Should we wait? If we wait, we wait at our peril. I think we should not wait. I believe the events of September 11 a little over a year ago changed a lot of things like that.

We used to have the privilege or opportunity to wait until somebody struck us. And some people argue that. We don't have that today.

I think we've got to go where the problems come from and we've got to preempt them. And that's what the president is basically talking about.

BEGALA: Another of your colleagues, Senator Edward Kennedy, last week referenced back to his brother's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviet empire was, I think, even more evil than Saddam Hussein. They had real live nuclear weapons just 90 miles away from us. And Senator Kennedy argues his brother's policy of a blockade and not invading saved us from a nuclear disaster.

Why are we not pursuing other options?

SHELBY: Of course the Cuban Missile Crisis was 1962; that was 40 years ago. A lot of things have changed. And what has changed, we were dealing with nation states then. Cuba was a nation state, a sovereign state. The Soviet Union was our big would-be adversary at that time. They had a lot to lose in a confrontation, a nuclear confrontation.

I don't know that somebody like Saddam Hussein and his allies would ever think of it that way.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Kucinich, you probably saw this today in the "Wall Street Journal." Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, a Democrat, really one of the great Democrats in the United States, addressed, I think, your position on the war in Iraq and I want to read you what he said.

"No matter how laudable or well intended, the antiwar peace at almost any price is a loser for Democrats. It will stimulate the extreme left, no doubt about that. And they are the key to the primaries. They will put their money, their emotions, their make- believe president Martin Sheen and even Ms. Streisand vocal chords behind it."

He's basically saying you're bringing the party back to 1968 or 1972 and hurting it by taking this, in his words, "pretty extreme" left position on the war. Do you think that's true?

KUCINICH: I think we have to go beyond this question of politics. I mean we're about to be on a threshold of a war where there's no imminent threat that's been proven. And we need to make sure that America does not go it alone, because if we go it alone we're going to be left alone and stuck alone and have to rebuild alone.

I mean we've got to look at this in terms of what America's role in the world is today. In 1991, during the Gulf War, we worked with the world community. And we should work with the world community on matters of global security. This is beyond partisan politics; this is beyond inter-party politics.

This is about what's best for America. And no one has made the case that it's best for America for the United States to launch a preemptive strike against Iraq.

BEGALA: Congressman Kucinich, hold that thought. And Senator Shelby, we're going to come back to you too. Because when we come back, I'm going to ask when (UNINTELLIGIBLE) make the case on Monday night.

He's going to give a major address to the nation on Monday. And we're going to ask our guests what we can expect from it.

And then, later, can the Bush Rehnquist court resist the temptation of meddling in the New Jersey Senate race? Well, you know what they say, they always return to the scene of the crime.

And our quote of the day is from a preacher who is picking a fight with someone who has been dead for nearly 1,400 years. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

The United Nations chief weapons inspector says only loose ends stand in the way of resuming the hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Loose ends, apparently, like the Bush administration, which is still trying to build U.N. support for a tougher, tighter inspections regime.

Meanwhile, our president plans to address the nation on Monday after a restful weekend at the family mansion in Maine.

In the CROSSFIRE, Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, he's in Cleveland; and Senate Intelligence Committee Vice Chairman Richard Shelby from Alabama, he's here in our studio.

CARLSON: Mr. Kucinich, I want to ask you a number of questions. Before I do, I want to get back to something you said a minute ago about the world community and how we need the support of the world community. Is this the same world community that has stood by without doing anything, as Africa has destroyed itself over the last 40 years, as Bosnia and Kosovo took place right in the center of Europe, as Iraq just gave the bird to the rest of the world and developed these weapons of mass destruction?

I mean this is the same world community that has refused to intervene in places where people have been killed in genocide. I mean what does it mean to be a world community if you don't actually protect the world from people like Saddam Hussein?

KUCINICH: Well, first of all, the United Nations exists as a framework for the national law. It's not perfect. But the United States should not be in a position of having to be the policemen of the world. Because if we take it upon ourselves to do that, we're soon going to be isolated.

And no one has shown how a preemptive action by the United States would enhance world stability. We have a United Nations framework. The United States is one of the signatories to the U.N. charter.

We have helped create the United Nations. I don't think there's any other way to solve the problems of the world and provide for global security except through the U.N.

I'll make this clear. I will defend this country, I voted to defend this country, I take an oath to defend this country. If the country is under imminent threat we have to defend this country. But there's no imminent threat from Iraq.

BEGALA: Senator Shelby, first this question about going it alone. I suspect back home in Alabama that's what people are most worried about, about America becoming the world's policemen. Are we going to go it alone?

SHELBY: Well, first of all, we shouldn't be the world's policemen. But we should look after our security interests wherever they are in the world. Are we going to go it alone? I don't believe at the end of the debate in the U.N. that we'll be going it alone. I could be wrong.

But I believe the U.N. is going to have to step up to the plate, so to speak. Is the U.N. going to be meaningful? Is it going to be what we created the U.N. for and hoped it would be, or is it going to be a debating society?

A lot of us look back in history to the League of Nations. The League of Nations became impotent and did nothing in 1936. And it could have prevented, I believe the Second World War, but they didn't.

This is a great opportunity for the U.N., but they're going to have to stand up finally. They have been defied by Saddam Hussein, their resolutions. And I believe President Bush laid it out pretty well. And the debate coming up next week -- we've already started it -- is going to put a lot of that information out.

BEGALA: Will the president do that on Monday night? President Kennedy, at the U.N., had his U.N. ambassador show photographs of those missiles in Cuba. Why won't the president come to us, and to the rest of the world if they want to see it, and show us the proof of this imminent threat that he tells us about?

SHELBY: Well, I'm -- you're talking about imminent threat, and how do you define imminent and so forth. You're never going to have -- dealing with Saddam Hussein -- a situation where someone goes into the shed and says, gosh, we've got photographs of four nuclear bombs probably the size of what we used in the Second World War.

You have to make deductions in what we have. What we do not want him to do is get to the point that he has a nuclear weapon. And he will get there and he will get there in months if he has (UNINTELLIGIBLE) material. And he can buy it; he's got the money.

CARLSON: Congressman, we're almost out of time. But I just want to ask you, quickly, virtually everybody agrees that it was wrong, very wrong for three Democrats to go to Baghdad last week and attack the president of the United States from enemy territory on the very day that Iraqi missiles were being fired at American airmen. Do you agree that it was wrong?

KUCINICH: I think that the members that went there, particularly Congressman McDermott, have reassessed their position of what was said. However, let it be said also that this is a time for America to begin to reassess its world policies and find a way to make peace inevitable.

War should not be inevitable. We have to rethink our foreign policy and, I think, get away from this idea of launching preemptive strikes, which could be very destructive and set America on a path that would be very difficult for future generations.

CARLSON: OK. Congressman Kucinich from Ohio, thank you. Senator Shelby, here in Washington, thank you very much.

SHELBY: Thank you.

CARLSON: Another one of America's most colorful politicians is about to join many of his colleagues behind bars. Details are coming up in the CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter."

Also, dirty your hands by taking up the U.S. Senate race in New Jersey.

But next, our quote of the day comes from a man who has been officially uninvited to next year's post-Ramadan barbecue. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

You know one of the more encouraging developments in religion in the last century was the ecumenical movement. Instead of hurling condemnations at each other, people of good faith in different religions have been trying to come together exploring what we have in common in our search for God.

But since September 11, a few right-wing TV preachers have been sounding more like they yearn for the good old days of the crusades. Among them: Reverend Jerry Falwell. In a taping for "60 Minutes" he insulted and offended a billion Muslims all over the world and, once again, revealed his own startling ignorance all in just six words.

Those six words are our quote of the day: "I think Mohammed was a terrorist."

CARLSON: You know, Paul, it's pretty easy to beat up on Jerry Falwell. But I hardly think that Jerry Falwell represents a threat to the world's Muslims. Radical Islam represents a real threat to the world's Christians. They're being -- 40 Christians have been killed in Pakistan in the last couple of months by radical Muslims.

I'm just saying, Jerry Falwell, you can write him off, he's irrelevant, this is part of his own publicity efforts. He doesn't represent anybody beyond his little college down there in Lynchburg, Virginia. And I just don't see him as terrifying as actual terrorists out there committing murder in the name of religion.

BEGALA: He's not as bad as a murderer, but I want to see what our president says now, because...

CARLSON: Why would the president even...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He's like this with Falwell. He's terribly close to Jerry Falwell. We're going to see if the president will speak out against this kind of hate speech.

CARLSON: Hate speech.

BEGALA: It's hate speech.

CARLSON: No it isn't. It's ridiculous speech.

BEGALA: How a profit of an ancient, honorable religion is a terrorist?

CARLSON: Well, that doesn't mean -- it's not a hate speech. Give me a break.

BEGALA: His opinion is hateful.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: New Jersey State Democratic Committee today, respectfully asked the United States Supreme Court to butt out of the Garden State's Senate election. The committee filed a brief arguing that Republican Doug Forrester's preference to compete with an opponent who pulled out of the race is no basis for a federal constitutional claim. But perhaps the New Jersey Democrats missed the case of Bush versus Gore in which the Court did intervene to uphold the lofty constitutional principle of the Republican Party's right to hold power.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, Democratic strategist Doug Hattaway, along with Republican consultant Charlie Black.

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

Charlie, good to see you.

CARLSON: Doug Hattaway, you know, I learned something new this week. Obviously, I knew, we all knew the Republicans loathe Senator Robert Torricelli. I had no idea that Democrats hated him even more.

And we know this because his replacement is his arch-enemy, pick number four, Senator Lautenberg. Who he hates more than anything, it's an obvious slap to Senator Torricelli.

But I want to read you the quote that Senator Lautenberg uttered when he got out the first time in 1999: "The fact of the matter is the years I spent in the Senate have been a large personal inconvenience and effort."

This guy is 78 years old; he didn't like it the first time. He is bored. He has nothing to do. He wants to get back in.

DOUG HATTAWAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: And he'll beat Forrester in a landslide.

CARLSON: But you're embarrassed about it, you've got to be.

HATTAWAY: The Republican position in all of this situation is that the voters in New Jersey should come out and anoint Doug Forrester. I think this election is supposed to be about giving voters a real choice, decide whether they want the former senator or the pretend senator-to-be. But I think they will choose Lautenberg, despite things like this, because Forrester is wrong on just about every issue of importance to people in New Jersey. Some people living near toxic sites and they ought to pay to clean them up ...

CARLSON: OK, but wait.

HATTAWAY: ...rather than the polluters.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Just back this up. Wait, wait, hold on. Let me assess this question here. And I sort of agree with you that people ought to be able to choose a real candidate. On the other hand, John McCain said something today that I do want you to respond to.

"Already," he said, "over 1,000 men and women serving overseas in the U.S. Armed Forces have received ballots ... no voter, whether he or she votes by military ballot or absentee or in person on election day should be disenfranchised by late changes."

This is not something you could ignore.

HATTAWAY: They should all get a ballot. And if they're disenfranchised it is because the Republicans are trying to drag this through the court and they won't get their new ballots in time. If you guys let the voters have a choice and send them their new ballots, they will be fine.

BEGALA: In point of fact, the attorney for all 21 county clerks in New Jersey testified before the court that already 106 ballots had gone out. With all respect for Senator McCain, I actually think the attorney for the courts knows better And I think those 106 can be replaced.

But let me get to this issue that Doug raised here, Charlie Black, which is toxic waste. It's as big a problem as New Jersey has. Frank Lautenberg, one of the great champions of the Superfund against Doug Forrester, who told "The Newark Star Ledger" -- let me read you what he said to "The Star Ledger", the biggest paper in the state.

"The Republican," Mr. Forrester said "if left to him, his tax plan would replace the old method for funding the cleanup of the nation's abandoned Superfund sites by taxing only petroleum and chemical companies. Forrester also said he would support dedicating part of the federal income tax to help foot the bill."

So, not corporate polluters, but people pay. This is what Doug Forrester offers for New Jersey?

CHARLES BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Forrester is trying to come up with a new plan to clean up the Superfund sites. Because only 10 percent of the sites in New Jersey have been cleaned up as long as you have these two Democratic senators.

Actually, I think Forrester is going to beat Lautenberg. First of all, you are going to have a lot of rebellion from the voters about changing the rules in the middle of the game, violating the rule of law.

But Doug Forrester is a good candidate. He's a moderate Republican. He's a successful businessman. He worked for Tom Kean, the most popular Republican governor in the history of the state. He managed the budget and the state pension for Kean. He has spoken out on all of these issues and has plans for the state. He has gotten himself fairly well known. And I think he's popular.

You know, the Democrats are being too cute by half. I think Lautenberg will lose.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about those two words you used, "moderate Republican". Mr. Forrester was specifically asked whether he described himself as a moderate Republican. He said, no. He's not a moderate Republican. In fact, he's a right-wing Republican.

BLACK: Well, he's a George Bush Republican.

BEGALA: He's a right-wing Republican by his own...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: No, he's not!

BEGALA: What do you think he meant, Charlie, when he said, no, I'm not a moderate. Do you really think he meant I'm a liberal?

BLACK: Well, maybe that he's pro-choice maybe. I don't know what he meant. But he is pro-choice.

BEGALA: If you think that, what do you think he meant, when he said I'm not a moderate Republican what do you expect he meant?

BLACK: I don't know. I don't know him. And I haven't read everything he said.

BEGALA: Oh, come on! BLACK: But I'll tell you this, he has taken positions that actually -- actually are on environment, on Superfund. He wants to spend more money on it than Republicans have proposed in the past. He's pro-choice. That's not a right-wing Republican, Paul.

He fits that state pretty well. And I think a lot of the voters there, the swing voters, are sick and tired of the Democrats playing these games.

(CROSSTALK)

Defend a crook as long as he's defensible, then change rules.

CARLSON: They had a choice. It was a choice endorsed by your party and perhaps even by you, I hope if that's true you'll admit it. Torricelli, Senator Torricelli, up until Monday was the anointed choice of his party. He gave a official Democratic Party radio response to the president of the United States last Saturday. This, when there was credible overwhelming evidence that he committed felonies while U.S. senator, I want to know how you explain that.

HATTAWAY: And Doug Forrester is calling on him to do what? Drop out of the race.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Wait a second. You might think, oh, this is ancient history. This was Saturday.

HATTAWAY: Right.

CARLSON: The party said, yes, you give the official -- you represent our party in an official capacity to respond to the president. How could you back someone like that?

(CROSSTALK)

HATTAWAY: The Republicans repeatedly call on Torricelli to drop out of the race. He does and you want to keep him on the ballot, why? Because you guys want the voters to anoint your candidate rather than give them a choice, as what elections are supposed to be all about.

BLACK: It took a lot of guts for Forrester to get in the race when he did, when Torricelli was an overwhelming favorite. Nobody else wanted to run against Torricelli. He ran; he ran a good campaign. He beat him fair and square. And now he's got to go out and beat somebody else.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Aren't one-party elections better suited for Castro's Cuba than the United States of America?

BLACK: Well, you know, you may have a point, Paul. And I just think the guy we have running against Senator Dorgan (ph) is doing bad and I'd like to replace him. The guy we have running against Joe Biden is doing bad, I'd like to replace him.

(CROSSTALK)

For that matter, the Redskins might lose to Tennessee Sunday, let's just run the Eagles in there.

BEGALA: Amen!

All right. We will take a quick break. We will be right back. Our viewers are itching to get into the New Jersey debate. A couple get their chance later on in our "Fireback" segment.

Next, the Democrats have absolutely no shame. When you see this official Democratic Party cartoon, you're guaranteed to be outraged, revolted, get your airsickness bag.

And, in the CROSSFIRE (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Kentucky's governor says he's living proof that the truth always comes out sooner or later.

Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are coming through, as we always do, from the George Washington University, here in Downtown Washington.

Al Gore delivered a lecture on the economy this week, in case you missed it. Everyone's eyes glazed over until the question and answer period when Gore admitted he no longer wears his wedding ring because he has put on so much weight. It won't fit. Is it time we stopped despising Gore and simply agree to feel sorry for him?

We're talking politics with Democratic strategist and former Gore campaign spokesman Doug Hattaway and Republican consultant Charlie Black..

BEGALA: Guys, let's go to the story of the day, the funniest ad of this election season. My party, the Democrats, are running a new ad. It's a cartoon depiction of the president's position on Social Security privatization. Well, let me show you what it looks like. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Bush and the Republicans still want to push their privatization plans through Congress. And they will, if you let them. Trust me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BEGALA: Well, Charlie, there it is. That's the Republican position is to privatize part of Social Security, which would send granny right down that roller coaster of the Dow Jones, right?

BLACK: Well, Paul, this is the most outrageous thing the DNC has done since your contract expired. This is insulting to senior citizens as well as being insulting to the president. Plus, it's a lie. That's not Bush's position.

Now, there is president who proposed having the government invested Social Security funds in the stock market -- it was Bill Clinton! You were there when he proposed it. He backed off of it later, but George Bush never proposed that.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: He proposed letting people keep some of their payroll taxes and invest in conservative options at their own will, if they wanted to. That's all he ever proposed. Please don't insult these old people. They're not stupid.

CARLSON: Why -- and Doug Hattaway, I mean this is all - I mean it is sort of amusing. If it was flipped, of course, Democrats would be probably suing.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But this strategy is scaring old people. And the fact, is the Democrats have no plan at all for salvaging Social Security. If they do, I want to know what it is. Give me the two sentence answer to that. What's the plan?

HATTAWAY: The ad makes a very effective point. And that is the Republican plan to privatize Social Security.

CARLSON: You're not going to answer that?

HATTAWAY: Look, the Democrats were paying off the national debt, shoring up Social Security Trust Fund. You guys blew the debt, now you're spending Social Security money on everything else under the sun.

CARLSON: More scary stuff, but what is the plan to save it now?

HATTAWAY: The plan --?

CARLSON: Oh, there isn't one?

HATTAWAY: Oh, nice (ph).

CARLSON: Oh, sorry, OK.

HATTAWAY: This ad makes a very effective point. The problem - what they don't really like about the ad is that it puts Social security back on the radar screen. The Republican plan is that you not talk about the truth of their plan, which is privatize the system. Put money in the stock market. Everybody knows benefits will be cut. The only reason these guys are riled up about it. Is because it puts it right on the radar screen. They didn't want to talk about it before the election. And here we are talking about it.

BEGALA: I'm going answer Tucker's question here. I won't just give you two cents, I'll give you two words, our plan to save Social Security: vote Democratic. Why? Because President Bush does not just want to privatize part of Social Security, Charlie, he wants to privatize all of it. His own words from "The Houston Chronicle." Let me read you what Governor Bush then said on May the 17th in "The Houston Chronicle." "Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush on Tuesday said his plan to create private savings account could be the first step toward a complete privatization of Social Security. It's going to take a while to transition to a system where personal savings accounts are the predominant part of this investment vehicle, Bush said. This is a step toward a completely different world, and an important step."

Bush wants to privatize Social Security. That should be a very scary thought, isn't it?

BLACK: No, his point being that if you let people keep some of their payroll tax money, which they get less in a 2 percent return out of the Social Security system later, and it works with conservative investments that they get a 4, 5 or 6 percent return.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: We're talking about a 100-year experiment here. If that works, then people are going to want more than 2 percent of their payroll taxes to be invested at their own will under their own decisions. That's all he's saying.

(CROSSTALK)

HATTAWAY: ... up to a third you're talking about.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: You guys are nonsense.

BEGALA: Look at the Bush commission report. It says it plain.

BLACK: It does not say that.

BEGALA: Charlie Black, Republican strategist. Doug Hattaway, Democratic strategist. Thank you both very much.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, a longtime Texas Longhorn fan breaks the faith. On CROSSFIRE. But first, see whose fingerprints end up in the hall of shame and in our CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter." Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: The good, the bad, the undeniably guilty. It's time for the most hard-boiled segment in television, the CROSSFIRE "Police Blotter." When public figures intersect with law enforcement, CROSSFIRE is there. Kentucky's home grown Casanova, known to voters as Democratic Governor Paul Patton, says leakers in his administration ought to confess, because the truth always comes out. And Patton says he should know. The governor denied, then admitted having an affair with nursing home operator Tina Connor (ph). She says she got tips from Patton's office when state inspectors were coming, until the affair ended and state officials started harassing her. The governor denies any abuse of power, but investors have subpoenaed boxes of records looking for evidence. Meanwhile, Patton said he won't resign because it would be -- quote -- irresponsible. In other words, if he resigns, the former girlfriend would have won.

BEGALA: Well we should have known it would only be a matter time before we got the made for TV movie about the Michael Skakel-Martha Moxley murder case. You know the one cracked by that crusading author and famous O.J. police detective, Mark Fuhrman.

Oh, you don't remember that? Well, neither do the people involved who are furious that the script paints Fuhrman's book, "Murder in Greenwich," as the driving force that finally brought Skakel to justice. The prosecutor who was actually involved says -- quote -- "That's demeaning to the entire division of criminal justice of Connecticut." He adds Fuhrman is trying to take credit for things he simply did not do. Mark Fuhrman lied? No.

CARLSON: You know, Paul. Unlike a lot of conservatives, I like the Kennedy saga. I think it's interesting.

Former Louisiana Governor Edwin Edwards' days as a free man are alast numbered. Edwards has been ordered to report to prison by October 21 to begin serving a 10-year sentence for corruption. Edwards was hoping to remain free while appealing his conviction -- he'll definitely take a few trips to Vegas -- was philosophical about the short time he has left.

Quote -- "that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'll do generally what any person would do in if he knew he had to abandoned his life for a long period of time."

Why is it the most interesting, colorful and quotable politicians -- the really amusing Democrats -- always end up behind bars, leaving only the Al Gores of this world?

BEGALA: May be they don't have good enough lawyers like the Republicans.

CARLSON: It's sad.

BEGALA: Former Enron Chief Financial Officer Andrew Fastow has taken up the latest Wall Street dance craze -- it's called "The Perp Walk." Put your right hand here, you put your left hand there. The sheriff slaps the handcuffs on you and hauls you off to court. That's what it's all about -- or is it?

It's been nearly a year since Enron went "el busto," and Fastow is only the second Enron executive to be charged. Meanwhile, Bush buddy and former CEO "Kennyboy" Lay -- the Kingpin of Enron, himself -- hasn't even received so much as a parking ticket from his old buddy, George W. Bush.

CARLSON: The president doesn't arrest people. I'm not sure we -- maybe if you were to go back to Civics class...

BEGALA: You were just crowing about what a wonderful job John Ashcroft's doing on terrorism.

CARLSON: Right, he's not the president, either. We can talk about this after the show.

But I must say these guys will all go to prison. Ken Lay will be charged. And I'm not sure anything short of execution would make you feel better. I mean, they got busted. They're in trouble. They'll pay for it.

BEGALA: Maybe he'll just time it for the election.

Next, it's your turn to "Fire Back" at us. One of our viewers who's dreamed up a 2004 ticket that could be Tucker Carlson's worst nightmare. Stay tuned to find out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Fire Back." Let's go to the e-mail bag.

Adam in South Brunswick, New Jersey writes: "We are entitled to an election that is contested. Maybe Forrester and the Republicans should focus on actually running a campaign instead of crying like a bunch of babies. This isn't Florida."

Actually, Charlie Black was saying that to himself. So it's...

CARLSON: Really, I'm not sure Forrester was the candidate who cried during a news conference. Oh sorry, that was Robert Torricelli.

BEGALA: He's out, he's out.

CARLSON: I did dig the crime though.

Gordon from Greensboro, North Carolina writes: "Tucker if you think Begala is up in arms about the Republicans trying to block replacing the Torch, wait until he finds out the electoral college selects the president."

Let's not tell him.

BEGALA: No it doesn't. The Supreme Court does, appointed by Bush's daddy. That's why -- Cathy V. in El Segundo, California writes: "Paul, I don't think the Democrats have anything to worry about in 2004. The way Bush is running things, especially the economy, anyone will look better than him in the next election. Maybe we can get a Carville-Begala ticket going." Cathy, you know that was an ego moment until you got the order wrong. This is clearly a typo in Cathy's e-mail. The order is completely wrong. Begala-Carville.

CARLSON: You know what happens? Once this -- Pat Buchanan, I mean -- once you're a talk show host it's just like the next step to be president.

Bob Hammons of San Antonio writes: "I've been a Texas Longhorn for 55 of my 69 years. But after hearing Paul Begala say he went to Texas and is also a Longhorn fan, I've decided to start cheering for Texas A&M."

BEGALA: You know what they tell a smart guy...

CARLSON: Look at that. You just wrecked like a 55 -- that guy's life.

BEGALA: You know what they tell a smart guy at A&M? Hi you, stranger. You know, they're not the best school in the world.

CARSON: Little Texas joke. Yes, sir?

BEGALA: Yes, sir?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: How are you doing? My name's John Criscolo (ph), I'm from Point Pleasant, New Jersey. I was just wondering, that if you think the new Democrats get their way with the New Jersey elections, will we be able to read the ballots this time?

CARLSON: Of course not. Of course not. The idea -- I mean you see here in Washington, D.C. we're just sort of -- everyone of those butterfly ballots was misread by a Democrat. That tells you something.

BEGALA: Well, no. Thousands of them were Jews who voted for Buchanan. The Supreme Court said so. Yes, of course we should have an election. It's an old-fashion notion that used to happen in America before 2000, that whoever gets the most votes wins. It's a novel concept. I say we go back to it.

Yes, sir?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jonathan Fiedler, I'm from Sliver Spring, Maryland. My comment is I think the Republicans should be thrilled by Al Gore's recent speech on the economy as it represents (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of a coming out party for 2004. Although I hope my Democratic Party has better sense than to nominate him again.

CARLSON: Oh, come on. Al Gore -- well if you listen to Paul, he is president, just nobody knows it. But Al Gore deserves to be the Democratic nominee. He was vice president for eight years, he was a senator taken very seriously for a number of years before that, a member of Congress before that. This guy's earned it. And if they knock him off the ticket for someone they think has a better chance of winning, it'll be a total betrayal and an outrage. BEGALA: Not to sound like a broken record, but we're going to have an election, we're going to let the people decide. This is the recurring theme -- this is why we're the Democratic Party, instead of the Plutocratic party.

CARLSON: Al Gore-Al Sharpton, 2004. I'm behind the ticket.

BEGALA: Yes, ma'am?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, Mary Cornaby (ph) from Washington, D.C. Given the New Jersey Supreme Court has already decided that Senator Torricelli can be removed from the ballot, and given that the New Jersey Supreme Court is comprised of mostly Republican appointees, and that they were unanimous in their interpretation of New Jersey law, why should the Supreme Court get involved?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Four of the seven justices were appointed by Christie Whitman -- who's in the Bush administration. They did vote unanimously. And just because a state court interpreting state law in a state election should have the final word? No...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Actually, Paul. Sorry to inject fact here, but the legislature determines the rules of an election. We're back to Civics class again.

BEGALA: By passing a law, Tucker, that the courts then interprets.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: The law is really clear. And Torricelli fell without -- outside of the law. OK? It's too late to take his name off the ballot according to New Jersey state law.

BEGALA: Tucker Carlson knows New Jersey state law better than seven justices of the New Jersey Supreme Court.

CARLSON: I'm a expert on it.

BEGALA: From the left, Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next time, that would be on Monday. Right now, have a great weekend.

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Will Supreme Court Weigh In on New Jersey Senate Race?>