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CNN Crossfire

Congress Refocuses its Energy on Economy, Elections; Sniper May have Struck Again With Police Only Yards Away

Aired October 11, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ayes are 77. The nays are 23.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The Iraq debate is over. It's back to business as usual.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I think we ought to consider a regime change in your economic council...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Another shooting near Washington. But is the sniper getting reckless?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. HAROLD SMITH, SPOTSYLVANIA SHERIFF'S DEPT.: At the time the shot was fired, a Virginia state trooper was across the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And he's got attitude, opinions and a new book. We'll trade political slam-dunks with Charles Barkley.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: James Carville and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, the Democrats try changing the subject again.

We will also talk to NBA superstar Charles Barkley about his change of careers. But first, those life-changing stories you may not find anywhere else but our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Both Houses of Congress have passed a resolution authorizing President Bush to use force against Saddam Hussein. Said the president, "America speaks with one voice." Not exactly, Mr. President. The House vote was 296 to 133. One hundred thirty-three members, all but six of them Democrats, voting no, when only about 50 negative votes had been expected.

House Democratic Whip, Nancy Pelosi, was whipping opposition to the vote. Aided by deputy whips, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of Texas and Jan Schakowsky of Illinois. Already the word is out on the campaign trail that a vote for the local Democratic candidate is a vote for Pelosi.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Democratic and Republican lawmakers are furious with the White House about face of setting up an independent commission to look into the mistakes that led to 9/11. What looked like a done deal yesterday has become undone and it may not get put back together before Congress goes home.

Republican Senator John McCain thinks the White House has kind of limited the scope of the investigation because every bureaucracy in Washington is scared to death of what the probe may find. It would be a shame if protecting political turf wins out over protecting national security.

NOVAK: You know, James, that the investigation will find out -- it's supposed to find out things they don't want. But the Pearl Harbor investigation never found out that Roosevelt new about the Japanese attack.

CARVILLE: Let me tell you this right now. This is the most outrageous thing I've seen in Washington ever. That these people are so slimy, that they tried to stop this thing until they couldn't stop it anymore. And now they're trying to undercut this because they are scared of their political (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

I say investigate what Clinton knew and did. Investigate what Bush new and did. Investigate the CIA. Tell these victims of 9/11 how their government let them down.

NOVAK: Enough with the speech. The sniper shootings in the Maryland suburbs of Washington come in the midst of a bitter partisan campaign for governor of Maryland between Democratic Lieutenant Governor Kathleen Kennedy Townsend and Republican Congressman Bob Ehrlich. Both candidates decided to stay away from the gun control issue during the sniper crisis.

But new polls came out showing that in an overwhelmingly democratic Maryland, Republican Ehrlich was actually leading Bobby Kennedy's oldest child. So Kathleen broke her promised with a new ad attacking Ehrlich for not being a gun controller. The Ehrlich campaign call called it "shameful." But Maryland voters are accustomed to shameless politics. CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Spiro Agnew, they ought to be accustomed to it -- a great Republican. I mean I know what's wrong with it, but it's a legitimate issues and people ought to discuss issues in gubernatorial campaigns. I mean what the heck here? I mean there are thing to do here.

Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey Pitt is so incompetent that Democratic congressional leaders want his head. Even the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page is cringing about Pitt's behavior in the states.

Is Mr. Pitt cleaning up his act or that accounting industry that he used to lobby for? Hardly. Pitt says Tom Daschle and Dick Gephardt are playing politics and don't know what they're talking about. Pitt also says Congress should give his agency more money instead of writing him silly letters.

Mr. President, why don't you write Harvey Pitt a nice, simple two-word letter: You're fired.

NOVAK: Well, you wanted to fire him before he did anything, because you want to fire all the Republicans. But, as a matter of fact, I have defended Harvey Pitt, as you know. And I think he's made a big mistake in not hiring this tough regulator. I think the president ought to tell him to get tough on this issue.

Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott announced he will not attend an October 25 award dinner for singer Harry Belafonte, for which he was listed as sponsor. During a radio interview this week with KFMB in San Diego, Belafonte called Secretary of State Colin Powell a house slave who comes in into the house of the master by saying what the master wants to hear.

Now this is what Belafonte said. "When Colin Powell dares to suggest something other than what the master wants to hear, he will be turned out to pasture." Today, the singer issued a statement. An apology? Forget it. Belafonte called General Powell a tragic failure. Shame on Harry Belafonte. Good for Trent Lott.

CARVILLE: Yes, well I actually think that with Trent Lott the hair spray is going to his head. But I think that Colin Powell is performing a valuable service to America to keep these rambunctious fools who want to send everybody to war. And, as General Powell said, he made a lot more money when he was out to pasture than he's making serving in the government. I think Colin Powell is a truly fine American and doing a good job.

Republican Mitt Romney is running for governor of Massachusetts. But he's also running away from his record. The "Boston Globe" reports that Romney was on the board of a medical lab that eventually pleaded guilty to Medicare fraud.

Romney's campaign claims he tried to clean things up. But the paper found court documents that showed the fraud continued until the lab was bought out by another company. That's when Romney really cleaned up. He walked away from the sale with nearly half a million dollars. Sound familiar?

Excuse me. I was starting to read yours. I was just keeping going. I was getting so wound up...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: James, well I think we ought to say that this was an attack by the liberal "Boston Globe" because there had been an expose of a scandal involving Romney's democratic opponent. Romney was not implicated in this. In fact, the board of directors hired a lawyer to investigate it. So get your facts straight.

CARVILLE: I didn't get the facts nothing. And the liberal "Boston Globe" is going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for "expose"...

NOVAK: The news about another fatal shooting outside Washington today guarantees this will be a sleepless weekend for police and a nervous weekend for everybody else. The victim was pumping gas in Fredericksburg, Virginia. Authorities haven't specifically linked it to the recent string of sniper attacks. But the similarities are all there.

What more can police do to catch this killer? Our guest is attorney and former D.C. homicide detective Ted Williams.

CARVILLE: Ted, I have a theory. Tell me if it's all washed up or does it make any sense. This kind of strikes me as somebody who had either law enforcement training or military training.

TED WILLIAMS, FMR. D.C. HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: You know, I think, James, you're absolutely on target here. This is someone who I believe has some knowledge of weapons and how to use weapons. He has some knowledge of how to get into a venue and get out of that venue. And someone with quasi paramilitary training could very well be the individual who is doing this kind of deed.

NOVAK: Mr. Williams, in the old days, we used to talk about the perfect crime, or read mystery stories about it. Here is a guy who shoots from long range, you can't see him, he gets in his car, he goes away, go changes his venue. Does this have all the earmarks of the perfect crime?

WILLIAMS: No, it's not the perfect crime. I can tell you, as we sit here, that this individual will be caught. As far as I'm concerned, the only perfect crime is perhaps in novels where you know the disposition.

Here, this guy is making every kind of mistake. What is happening now is that he's making these errors. There is certain evidence that he leaves at every one of the crime scenes. And sooner or later, just as we would have a puzzle, law enforcement will be able to put together a puzzle composite.

And they will catch this person, because he will make mistakes. And not only will he make mistakes, but the general public will help law enforcement catch this guy. CARVILLE: Let's go back to my theory that he could have been in law enforcement or military training. Do you think it could be that he's part of al Qaeda or some terrorist thing?

WILLIAMS: We should never dismiss that as being a reality. But on the other hand here, when you're talking about terrorist groups, normally, they put out some kind of a communique to let you know that they have some idea or a cause in mind. And that is not here, James.

NOVAK: But, here is guy, or a woman, or two people, or whoever they are, who could leave at any time. For all we know, they are in the middle of Tennessee right now and could lay low for three months and start this up all over again.

WILLIAMS: This is a blood-thirsty killer or killers. We know that just a few nights ago in Manassas there was a killing. We know about the 13-year Bowie, Maryland child that they shot at. This person is on a killing spree. He's playing a cat and mouse game with police and law enforcement.

He's out to show them that he has the power. That he is better than them. And clearly, I believe, that very soon, unfortunately, he's going to strike again, as he perhaps struck this morning.

NOVAK: Why did he just start now? I mean what -- you know, all of a sudden, bang, bang, bang, bang. Probably never killed anybody before.

WILLIAMS: And I don't know if you can say he never killed anybody before. But there's a pattern here. There's something that happens in a person's life: divorce, disgruntled employee, all of those kinds of scenarios leads to a metamorphosis in a person's life that allows them, unfortunately, to go out here and act like a fool.

CARVILLE: You're an attorney.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

CARVILLE: Do you do criminal defense work?

WILLIAMS: Some.

CARVILLE: If somebody came to you and this guy was caught and said we'll give you a million dollars to represent him. Would you represent this (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

WILLIAMS: I must be very candid with you. In light of the fact that this is a person who has shot a child, this is a person who has, from a distance, went out and shot somebody, I would be so biased. And if you're biased as a lawyer, you should never represent a person. I would have to no, I would have to respectfully decline.

NOVAK: Ted Williams, thank you very much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. NOVAK: In a minute, we'll consider the fallout from the use of force votes on Capitol Hill. For one thing, the Democrats are ready to talk about anything other than Iraq. But realize dealing with Saddam Hussein may not let them.

And later, we'll play a little two on one with NBA great Charles Barkley. Is he about to run for political office? Stick around to see if he makes a big announcement right here on CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Now that Congress is finally done with Iraq, the Democrats are falling all over themselves to change the subject. They staged an obviously partisan economic forum, not that anyone noticed it. But will the voters sit up and notice how their lawmakers voted the use of force resolution?

Stepping into the CROSSFIRE are democratic pollster Stan Greenberg and former White House political director, Ron Kaufman.

CARVILLE: Mr. Kaufman, Mr. Greenberg, a dynamic New England duo here tonight. Mr. Kaufman from the great state of Massachusetts, Mr. Greenberg from the great state of Connecticut.

Mr. Kaufman, let's start. Should this war be a political issue?

RON KAUFMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Absolutely not. It's not a political issue. It's a very important issue to this country. It's the most important thing in people's minds right now, and important to our future and our kids' future, but it's not a political issue.

CARVILLE: So, in other words, we shouldn't politicize this. If somebody voted against this as a result of conscience, we shouldn't make that a political issue. We should move on and move forward, right?

KAUFMAN: Absolutely.

(CROSSFIRE)

NOVAK: Well, I hope Mr. Greenberg has come here to talk politics. Mr. Greenberg, there were 126 Democrats -- 127 Democrats who voted against the resolution in the House of Representatives. Most of them from safe districts.

But already there's a line that's coming up by the Republicans that since Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic Whip, whipped them into that vote, if you vote for a Democrat in a tight district, you're supporting Nancy Pelosi. What do you think of that?

STAN GREENBERG, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Nothing. I mean this -- people were voting here on the war, taking it very seriously. They listened to their constituents, the voters at home.

People had very serious reservations about the war. They worry about Saddam Hussein, they want to wage this war on terrorism. They like to support the president. And they support, in the end, I think, a resolution. But they wanted to make sure it was done right. And I think the Democrats did country proud by raising those issues.

I don't think this was about Nancy Pelosi. She is a great woman. She's going to do very well. But that's not what this was about.

NOVAK: Now you and Mr. Carville here and Bob Shrum, the famous consultant, put out a memo on October 3. And I want to just take one line from that and put it up on the screen. This is unbelievable.

"In order to maintain Democratic morale, it is critical the Democratic supporters of this resolution be articulate about their reservations." In other words, if Democrats want to be patriotic, like Dick Gephardt, the house leader, you should say I really don't like it. That may be the most cynical thing I have ever seen in my 45 years in this town. But tell me, James Carville didn't have any part in writing that, did he?

GREENBERG: I'll tell you what, I will agree not to be cynical about the timing of this whole debate if you're not cynical about these words and what the intention was in that memo. The memo was very clear. And I think James' intention was very clear as well.

We said some Democrats are voting no, some Democrats are voting yes. Let's talk about -- if you're going to take those positions, people are going to vote their conscience, they're going to take those positions, you know you ought to know something about what the American people think about this.

In any case, there's also a context. A large majority of Democrats had reservations about this. Not the fringe. And, you know what, a large majority of the American public had reservations about going it alone. What we were simply is, you don't have to be nervous about that.

(CROSSTALK)

GREENBERG: No, you don't have to be nervous about that. In fact, the people want to hear you voice those view.

CARVILLE: He alluded to the fact that people against us were unpatriotic. You took the patriotic side, like Mr. Gephardt. And what that means is people took the unpatriotic side, like Stan's wife, Congresswoman DeLauro, from Connecticut, who voted for a resolution that said we should (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

See, this is my great problem here, Ron. And I'm glad you cleared it up. We shouldn't be impugning people's patriotism because they have a different view about how we should go to war with Iraq, should we?

KAUFMAN: I agree with that, James. It kills me to agree with you on almost anything, other than he has a brilliant wife, other than that...

CARVILLE: And she is beautiful too. KAUFMAN: Which is more -- never mind, I won't go there. But listen, when you had three democratic Congressmen go over to Iraq and criticize the president from Iraq, that was wrong. That was unpatriotic and bad.

But for members of Congress who care about this country, R or D, to debate this issue is right. And the fact is the president did the right thing. He went to Congress, as he should have. Told Congress what to do. And they gave him what he wanted, both the House and the Senate.

Even though Gephardt and Daschle in the beginning were against it, they saw the light and came the right way. It's good for America that they got. He'll go to the U.N., he'll get national support -- international support.

CARVILLE: Come on, there's nothing else Bush has to run on other than creating this (UNINTELLIGIBLE). The education plan is unfunded, the economy is going I don't know in what direction.

I'm sorry. This is CROSSFIRE. What am I supposed to be, Jim Lehrer or something?

KAUFMAN: Maybe, Jim. Maybe if the Senate would do their jobs. Maybe the Senate would do their job and actually pass a budget and pass appropriations, maybe if it passed pension reform, maybe if it passed (UNINTELLIGIBLE) bills the House passed...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: We're going to have to take a break, but I wanted to ask you a quick question. Straight politics, is Dick Gephardt in trouble with his party for doing the right thing?

GREENBERG: I think Dick Gephardt has the confidence of the Democrats in the Congress. I don't think this was about leadership. I think was about the war and the issues involved.

NOVAK: I wonder if he has the confidence of James Carville.

In a minute, we'll take the Democrats advice and change the subject. But only because Election Day is just around the corner.

Later, we'll head out beyond the three-point line with Charles Barkley. If he's thinking about getting into politics, it's going to be a real long shot. We'll ask him about his plans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: There are 25 days to go until the election. At the rate Republican campaigns keep imploding, there may not be any opposition left by then. Montana's GOP Senate candidate dropped out of the race yesterday. In California, Republican Bill Simon's campaign for governor is being compared to a corpse that's kicking itself. We are talking politics with my wife's dear friend, the former White House political director, Ron Kaufman, and my dear friend, democratic pollster, Stan Greenberg.

NOVAK: Mr. Greenberg, Al Hunt and I on the "NOVAK, HUNT & SHIELDS" program, interviewed for a broadcast tomorrow night at 5:30 PM and on Sunday morning at 10:30 p.m. on CNN. We interviewed Democrat Tim Johnson and Republican John Thune, running in one of the hottest Senate races in South Dakota.

And I asked Senator Johnson, the Democrat, whether he would go along with the leaders in his party, Teddy Kennedy, people like you, and throw back the Bush tax cuts. And let's listen to what Senator Johnson said on our program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM JOHNSON (D), SOUTH DAKOTA: The tax cuts are scheduled to take effect. I think we need to leave those alone for now. I think we need to move on. I support very large tax cuts that will are being phased in over the coming decade. We are going to have to see how the economy stands five and ten years down the road before we make additional decisions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Can we say that intelligent Democrats who want to survive do not go out for rolling back the Bush tax cuts?

GREENBERG: You know what, this is not about Democratic policies. This is about Republican management of the economy. What you've got is you've got an economy in trouble. Consumer confidence falling rapidly, investor confidence rapidly falling.

NOVAK: Why won't you answer my question?

GREENBERG: Look, he is taking, I think, a sensible (UNINTELLIGIBLE) position to evaluate it when it's appropriate. But that's not what -- the tax cuts is not an issue in this election. The overall management or lack of management or lack of interest of the Republicans in the economy...

NOVAK: What's the democratic proposal, then, if it's not rolling back the tax cuts?

GREENBERG: Well, we can start by getting rid of Harvey Pitt. And if we're not going to have a...

NOVAK: That's your solution?

GREENBERG: Well, let's restore confidence for investors and consumers. You can do that by getting rid of Harvey Pitt and begin to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) investment. I'm for a tax cut for the middle class, which wouldn't be a bad idea.

NOVAK: How about for the upper class too? (CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Why is it more important to give all of us at this table a tax cut four years from now instead of putting money in working people's pockets right now in the middle of this recession when they really need it?

KAUFMAN: Which is exactly what the president did when he was first elected. He took the courage and the moral leadership to get a tax cut.

CARVILLE: To give me a tax cut?

KAUFMAN: He gave everyone tax cut.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I know. Great.

KAUFMAN: At least folks out here listen to us. And this Congress should get to work, instead of playing politics. Should get to work and make that permanent so they keep their money.

CARVILLE: No, don't give me and Ken Lay a tax cut. Give it to these people who are trying to educate these children out here in the audience.

KAUFMAN: The problem with our economy right now is that Congress won't do their job. They've got a dozen bills in the Senate the House passed to make this economy better. And the only reason this economy is doing as well as it is is because the president had the courage to push through this Congress...

CARVILLE: You call this Congress doing well?

(CROSSTALK)

KAUFMAN: It could be a lot worse.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Mr. Greenberg, one of the most outrageous power plays in the history of this country took place in New Jersey, where the Senator, Bob Torricelli, Democrat, was failing because of his ethical transgressions. He was a sure loser.

They got him off the ballot in violation of state law, put on old Senator Frank Lautenberg, two-term senator, very well known, against a neophyte Republican. He should be way ahead.

The race is even. And I'll tell you why it's even. Take a look at this commercial by the Republican in New Jersey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I fail this test, can I have Frank Lautenberg take it for me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Torricelli and Lautenberg are teaching our children the wrong lessons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm losing. I quit. Let Frank Lautenberg play for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Isn't that entertaining?

GREENBERG: It's great fun, but wrong. First of all, you're wrong on the polls. Lautenberg is ahead in the polls. And I have no doubt that when this race gets to the issues...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Just a minute, he said something wrong. Rutgers Eagleton, even, 44 percent even.

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). If your campaign candidate told the Newark "Star Ledger" that you wanted to raise the gasoline tax to clean up (UNINTELLIGIBLE), as opposed to charge these corporations, wouldn't you try to change the subject and run some kind of clever thing like that?

KAUFMAN: The good news is going to be when the folks in New Jersey (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the issues, and they look at Lautenberg's record on important things, like defense, intelligence budgets and homeland security things, I'll tell you one thing, Forrester will be elected as the Senator from New Jersey. And the torch of leadership in the Senate will be passed, and it will be passed in New Jersey.

NOVAK: Mr. Greenberg, there's a state senator named Mike Taylor running for the U.S. Senate in Montana. And it's getting contagious, dropping out. And I want to show you the commercial that made him suspend his race. This is a Democratic ad. Let's take a look at it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State Senator Mike Taylor once ran a beauty salon and a hair care school until the Department of Education uncovered Taylor's hair care scam for abusing the student loan program and diverting money to himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Now isn't this just a strictly homophobic ad to say that the guy is gay?

GREENBERG: You have a guy that looks like a goofball who is ripping off the federal guy on student loans. No wonder he suspended his campaign.

CARVILLE: He should have never run after doing something like that. KAUFMAN: Now, James, there you go again. If that was a Republican ad, you would be all over this claiming that's homophobic like crazy.

CARVILLE: They're not Democrats...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: It's homophobic.

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you don't see anything wrong with ripping it up because you don't believe it in the first place. All you believe in is tax cuts for the wealthy. You don't believe in helping kids get through school.

These kids out here can't pay (UNINTELLIGIBLE) student loans to get through that. And this guy has no business ripping the thing off.

NOVAK: I'll tell you something, if these kids applaud that, they deserve the kind of politics that you...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: All right. Thank you very much, Stan Greenberg, Ron Kaufman.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: There are new developments in the sniper investigation here in the Washington area. Anderson Cooper has details next in the CNN "News Alert."

And then we'll ask Charles Barkley if he's trading in his hoop dreams for some political pipe dreams.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Well, Anderson, thank God we got a little economic news to go with this tragedy we have here in Washington, but thanks a lot. We appreciate it.

NOVAK: In a little bit, you'll get your chance to "Fire Back" at us. One viewer has a suggestion about just who the Democrats should be listening to.

Next we will talk to an NBA All-Star who may be turning into a political rookie. We'll find out if Charles Barkley is running for office.

And you won't want to miss our "Quote of the Day." It comes from someone who thought he was getting a prank call this morning. To bad it wasn't.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

No matter how good they are, every professional athlete eventually gets too old and too slow. The injuries started piling up, and they finally have to pick another career. Some go into business or write books. Others try coaching in the media. And a few even get started in politics.

Former NBA star Charles Barkley seems to be doing all of the above, including a new book called "I May Be Wrong, But I Doubt It." To talk about where his mid-life crisis is taking him, Charles Barkley in the CROSSFIRE.

How are you?

CARVILLE: Mr. Barkley, welcome to Power City. Have you ever seen one of these?

CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA STAR: I bet that's the first time you've ever had a basketball in your lap.

CARVILLE: Oh no, man, I blew a free throw to go in the playoffs.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You're in Power City now. This is a political place. Let me ask you a question. Will you or will you not be a candidate for political office in these United States of America?

BARKLEY: Well, it depends on if they try to do the right thing. I don't want to get involved in politics if they're just going to screw up the system and not try to help everybody. So to answer your question, I don't know yet.

CARVILLE: Well come on, Charles. This is -- we're in Washington. If you're going to be in politics -- one of the right thing to do is to say yay or nay. I'm going to do it, or I'm not going to do it. Will you?

BARKLEY: Well, right now the answer is no because the guy only make $88,000 a year and the only way you can make ends meet on that type of job with that type of stress, is fondle money to your friends and other family members. And I don't want to go through that hassle.

So the answer, really, is "no.".

CARVILLE: But you've got a little cash in the bank.

NOVAK: He gave you a no. He gave you a no. He's not going to do it.

CARVILLE: I'm trying to talk him into it. I think he'd be a great candidate.

NOVAK: Mr. Barkley, it's been rumored -- I think you've even said it, but I'm going to ask you straight. Are you a Republican? BARKLEY: I'm not either, to be honest with you. I made a joke with my grandmother one time. I was asking her, Why are we always a Democrat? Because -- I said -- because you know, I don't know, everyone in Alabama is a Democrat. I said, Why are we a Democrat? She said, We'll they're -- Republicans are only for rich people. And I said, I'm rich. And she hasn't gave me a viable answer.

I don't really go with either being a Republican or a Democrat. I like people.

NOVAK: I was reading page 78 of your book. I almost had a stroke when I read it. Let me just put it up on the board. "Half the executives of Enron have participated in Congressional hearings, but nobody's in jail yet. They've stolen millions of dollars and hid it real good. And all those working people, some of them just working class people, have lost their jobs, their pensions, their 401(k) plan."

As a matter of fact, Mr. Barkley, a lot of people in Enron are going to jail. A couple have been indicted. We are not in a communist state. We have a -- it takes a little time. But that is straight Democratic type crap.

What I wants to know is did Michael Willbond (ph) dictate that to you?

Willbond did a great job. But I hope Republicans want to see people who stole all that money go to jail.

NOVAK: Just for people in the audience who might not know it, your collaborator in this book is Michael Willbond, who's a left wing sports writer.

BARKLEY: Left wing?

Michael Willbond is probably the nicest guys I've met. But you know what? You do not have to be a Democrat or a Republican. Those people stole money.

NOVAK: They're going to jail. It takes time.

BARKLEY: We don't know that.

CARVILLE: I bet you if some black kid in Alabama was smoking pot, he'd be in jail in about two seconds.

(CROSSTALK)

BARKLEY: You didn't even finish the rest of it. Because if a poor person, whether they're black or white, if they get caught selling drugs, they take all of their money, their houses and cars. These guys at Enron, some of them paid a fine and they still live in big, nice houses.

NOVAK: This is complicated stuff. You've got to have hearings, you've got to have indictments. CARVILLE: It don't take anything to indictment some -- one of these kids to jail if they're blowing weed.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: That's the point. For what, sex?

BARKLEY: I like Bill Clinton. I like Bill Clinton.

CARVILLE: Best president we've ever had.

(CROSSTALK)

BARKLEY: And I agree with that. You've been around a lot longer -- I mean, a lot longer than these two. You might have been through some other presidents. But as long as I've been alive, Bill Clinton has been the best president.

NOVAK: Well, he's the worst I've ever seen.

CARVILLE: Anybody ever tell you you look like Willbond.

BARKLEY: I'm not that fat.

CARVILLE: You're not that fat?

Let's just say you saw something, you were outraged, you wanted to run for office. What would -- give me the kind of office you would be interested in running in?

NOVAK: He said no. He's not going to run.

BARKLEY: I don't want --

CARVILLE: Let me ask the question.

BARKLEY: I don't want -- you know people say run for city council or run for mayor of my little hometown. I don't want no little rinky dink job. I want a big job so that I can attract a lot attention to it, and the No. 1 thing for me is kids who go to public schools, they're not getting a good education, and we're screwing them.

NOVAK: Now, I want to take another quote out of this book. It didn't give me a headache, but it bothered me. On page 141. Put that up on the screen.

BARKLEY: I'm glad you read the book.

NOVAK: Yes. We're talking about John McCain. You said, "I think he probably got slapped around a bit in the last presidential election. A lot of people really liked him: his platform and the issues he campaigned on. But the Republican party said, Hey, George Bush is going to be the guy."

Now Mr. Barkley, in a basketball game -- I go to a lot of basketball games. And what you do is, you count the points. And the guy -- the team that has the most points at the end of the game, they're the winner. That's the way it is in a primary.

George Bush had more votes. He was the nominee.

BARKLEY: Well first of all, we're not sure he won the last election.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I am. I am 100 percent sure he lost it. It was stolen from him.

BARKLEY: We're not sure that he won the last election. But I think politics -- I think politics, there's a system. And I think Mr. McCain is a terrific person. I've gotten to know a lot about him.

NOVAK: He got a blurb on the back of your book. You praise him in the book. He praises you. One hand washes the other. Is that the way it works?

BARKLEY: That's actually the way it works. I wouldn't want anybody to put a blurb on there who didn't like me.

CARVILLE: Aren't you a constituent? Don't you live in Phoenix?

BARKLEY: I do live in Phoenix.

CARVILLE: So you know Senator McCain, you like him?

BARKLEY: I do. I think he's...

CARVILLE: You know Michael Willbond, you like him?

BARKLEY: He's a great guy.

CARVILLE: Let me tell you, Charles, you were very good on your feet when you played basketball, and you're damn good on your seat on CROSSFIRE too.

NOVAK: Now Dean Smith you've got here, you know he is a tremendous leftist. Did you know that? Dean Smith?

BARKLEY: I know he's a tremendous man. I admire Dean smith.

You know, Bobby Knight might break his record, but the difference between Bobby Knight and Dean Smith is like night and day.

NOVAK: Well some of us prefer Bobby Knight to Dean Smith, of course.

BARKLEY: We're going to get you all in the Enron and solo later.

CARVILLE: I may be wrong but I doubt it. Tell people out there in televisonland who saw this why they ought to buy this book. What is it about it? BARKLEY: It's just a lot about life. There's very little basketball in it. It's just -- I want to teach kids they got to get an education. But we got to find a way to get them an education. It's just about my life. But it's a good book. I'm happy about it.

CARVILLE: Well, you're a terrific guy. You're a terrific basketball player.

NOVAK: How tall were you when you were listed at 6'6?

BARKLEY: The same height today, 6'4.

NOVAK: Thank you very much.

BARKLEY: Thank you.

CARVILLE: Thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate it.

NOVAK: Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, a Democrat finally admits to something I've been saying about their party all along.

But next, our "Quote of the Day." It's also my outrage for the week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: It's one of those inevocable signs of autumn. Year in and year out, we get inevitable boomlet to give Jimmy Carter the Nobel Peace Prize. The admittedly incompetent president, who is supposed a terrific ex-president. Well this year they slipped up and actually gave him the Peace Prize. So we are giving the peanut man from Georgia something else: our "Quote of the Day."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES E. CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: At first I had a feeling of disbelief. And we had a call -- Rosalyn said at two minutes after 4 this morning -- I thought it was some joker who was calling. And they left word that I should call the Nobel Prize Committee at exactly 4:30 our time. And when I did and received the message, I was obviously grateful and, as I said, already humbled and honored.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: You know, James, the Nobel Peace Committee's been making mistakes on that prize, giving it to people like Yasser Arafat and Le Duc Tho. But Jimmy Carter's one of the biggest mistakes. He's the guy that was for the communists in Nicaragua and Fidel Castro in Cuba.

CARVILLE: You know -- I -- it's stunning that you would sit there -- here's a men who's one of the most deeply religious people, goes around building houses for poor people, goes all over the world on his own time, monitor elections, tries to resolve disputes. I mean, what is it about people getting along that so irritates and aggravates you? And what is it about humanitarians that irritates you?

NOVAK: Ask Bill Clinton, he couldn't stand him because he was bothering him all the time he was president.

CARVILLE: Maybe he's personally irritating to some people, but he's a great man. The guy, he gives his heart. He believes in these things. And I don't understand what's wrong with Jimmy Carter.

NOVAK: And he screws up everything he touches.

Next, it's your turn to "Fire Back" at us. One viewer has a suggestion for a fundraiser President Bush could attend, but it'll never happen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: For this whole show, it been our turn. Now we've come to the segment of CROSSFIRE that's your turn. It's your chance to "Fire Back."

"As a dedicated newshound, jockeying around the channels, in search of honest debate, I've come to the conclusion that the only fair and balanced debate show on TV, having equal personalities as hosts, with equal feistiness and sense of humor, is CROSSFIRE." Steve Metz, Manalaplan, New Jersey.

Steve -- mallen -- whatever.

NOVAK: Whatever.

CARVILLE: You a genius.

NOVAK: He's about half right.

CARVILLE: He's a damn genius.

NOVAK: All right, Pam Lowery of Chicago, Illinois says: "Yes, Bob Novak, we democrats are `losers.' We've lost our jobs and out investments. But us `losers' will have faith restored four weeks from today."

Pam, you're a typical losing Democratic whiner. And you'll be whining on November 5.

CARVILLE: Well we won the last election. So go ahead. What you can say?

"Instead of Bush fundraising for his political friends across the nation, why doesn't he hold fundraisers for the 2 million people his economic policies have caused to lose their jobs?" David Christopher, Texas.

Fat chance he'll do that. He always has his and whenever he loses money, he's got Daddy to pick up behind him.

NOVAK: And Brian of Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi says: "Mr. Novak, thank you for getting up each day to do what you do. I wish we had more people like you in America. The Democrats should stop and listen."

Bryan, if I were modest, I'd say don't say that, but I just love it. Thank you very much.

Question, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Vanessa Malton (ph) from San Francisco, California. Why are people like Kathleen Kennedy Townsend turning the sniper shootings into a political issue? People are dying, shouldn't we be focused more on catching the killer?

NOVAK: yes, you're exactly right. And I don't know what you're doing in San Francisco, because you seem intelligent.

I would say that Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, all she knows is what the political consultants tell her: attack, attack, attack, and that's what she does.

CARVILLE: This is why we got a thing on Bush going on a 14-day fundraising trip, we shouldn't be doing this when we are in a economic recession. We claim to (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You know talking about gun control is a little bit -- legitimate issue. And I don't understand what you with -- the problem with discussing issues.

NOVAK: Question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bob Novak, are you sure...

NOVAK: What's your name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Mary Burass (ph), and I'm from Alexandria, Virginia. And I just want to know, are your shoes on too tight or is your heart just a little too small?

NOVAK: Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's about time that Jimmy Carter was recognized for the good work he has done regarding peace globally.

NOVAK: Jimmy Carter was one of the worst presidents we've ever had, only exceeded by Clinton. And he's a bad ex-president too.

Next question.

CARVILLE: He's a fine man, he's a fine man. And I'm glad for him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Al Malton (ph) from Jupiter, California. My question is for James. James, when are the Democrats going to stop demagoguing this issue on the economy?

CARVILLE: What do you mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know as well as I do -- and every other thinking American -- that the Democrats in last year of the Clinton administration are as much to blame with regard to the market and the economy going in reverse.

CARVILLE: You think the Democrats appointed Harvey Pitt and...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You think the Democrats caused the deficit to explode with an irresponsible tax cut?

We got to get out of here tonight.

NOVAK: OK. Say goodbye, James.

CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Sniper May have Struck Again With Police Only Yards Away>


Aired October 11, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ayes are 77. The nays are 23.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The Iraq debate is over. It's back to business as usual.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I think we ought to consider a regime change in your economic council...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Another shooting near Washington. But is the sniper getting reckless?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. HAROLD SMITH, SPOTSYLVANIA SHERIFF'S DEPT.: At the time the shot was fired, a Virginia state trooper was across the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And he's got attitude, opinions and a new book. We'll trade political slam-dunks with Charles Barkley.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: James Carville and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, the Democrats try changing the subject again.

We will also talk to NBA superstar Charles Barkley about his change of careers. But first, those life-changing stories you may not find anywhere else but our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Both Houses of Congress have passed a resolution authorizing President Bush to use force against Saddam Hussein. Said the president, "America speaks with one voice." Not exactly, Mr. President. The House vote was 296 to 133. One hundred thirty-three members, all but six of them Democrats, voting no, when only about 50 negative votes had been expected.

House Democratic Whip, Nancy Pelosi, was whipping opposition to the vote. Aided by deputy whips, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of Texas and Jan Schakowsky of Illinois. Already the word is out on the campaign trail that a vote for the local Democratic candidate is a vote for Pelosi.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Democratic and Republican lawmakers are furious with the White House about face of setting up an independent commission to look into the mistakes that led to 9/11. What looked like a done deal yesterday has become undone and it may not get put back together before Congress goes home.

Republican Senator John McCain thinks the White House has kind of limited the scope of the investigation because every bureaucracy in Washington is scared to death of what the probe may find. It would be a shame if protecting political turf wins out over protecting national security.

NOVAK: You know, James, that the investigation will find out -- it's supposed to find out things they don't want. But the Pearl Harbor investigation never found out that Roosevelt new about the Japanese attack.

CARVILLE: Let me tell you this right now. This is the most outrageous thing I've seen in Washington ever. That these people are so slimy, that they tried to stop this thing until they couldn't stop it anymore. And now they're trying to undercut this because they are scared of their political (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

I say investigate what Clinton knew and did. Investigate what Bush new and did. Investigate the CIA. Tell these victims of 9/11 how their government let them down.

NOVAK: Enough with the speech. The sniper shootings in the Maryland suburbs of Washington come in the midst of a bitter partisan campaign for governor of Maryland between Democratic Lieutenant Governor Kathleen Kennedy Townsend and Republican Congressman Bob Ehrlich. Both candidates decided to stay away from the gun control issue during the sniper crisis.

But new polls came out showing that in an overwhelmingly democratic Maryland, Republican Ehrlich was actually leading Bobby Kennedy's oldest child. So Kathleen broke her promised with a new ad attacking Ehrlich for not being a gun controller. The Ehrlich campaign call called it "shameful." But Maryland voters are accustomed to shameless politics. CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Spiro Agnew, they ought to be accustomed to it -- a great Republican. I mean I know what's wrong with it, but it's a legitimate issues and people ought to discuss issues in gubernatorial campaigns. I mean what the heck here? I mean there are thing to do here.

Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey Pitt is so incompetent that Democratic congressional leaders want his head. Even the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page is cringing about Pitt's behavior in the states.

Is Mr. Pitt cleaning up his act or that accounting industry that he used to lobby for? Hardly. Pitt says Tom Daschle and Dick Gephardt are playing politics and don't know what they're talking about. Pitt also says Congress should give his agency more money instead of writing him silly letters.

Mr. President, why don't you write Harvey Pitt a nice, simple two-word letter: You're fired.

NOVAK: Well, you wanted to fire him before he did anything, because you want to fire all the Republicans. But, as a matter of fact, I have defended Harvey Pitt, as you know. And I think he's made a big mistake in not hiring this tough regulator. I think the president ought to tell him to get tough on this issue.

Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott announced he will not attend an October 25 award dinner for singer Harry Belafonte, for which he was listed as sponsor. During a radio interview this week with KFMB in San Diego, Belafonte called Secretary of State Colin Powell a house slave who comes in into the house of the master by saying what the master wants to hear.

Now this is what Belafonte said. "When Colin Powell dares to suggest something other than what the master wants to hear, he will be turned out to pasture." Today, the singer issued a statement. An apology? Forget it. Belafonte called General Powell a tragic failure. Shame on Harry Belafonte. Good for Trent Lott.

CARVILLE: Yes, well I actually think that with Trent Lott the hair spray is going to his head. But I think that Colin Powell is performing a valuable service to America to keep these rambunctious fools who want to send everybody to war. And, as General Powell said, he made a lot more money when he was out to pasture than he's making serving in the government. I think Colin Powell is a truly fine American and doing a good job.

Republican Mitt Romney is running for governor of Massachusetts. But he's also running away from his record. The "Boston Globe" reports that Romney was on the board of a medical lab that eventually pleaded guilty to Medicare fraud.

Romney's campaign claims he tried to clean things up. But the paper found court documents that showed the fraud continued until the lab was bought out by another company. That's when Romney really cleaned up. He walked away from the sale with nearly half a million dollars. Sound familiar?

Excuse me. I was starting to read yours. I was just keeping going. I was getting so wound up...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: James, well I think we ought to say that this was an attack by the liberal "Boston Globe" because there had been an expose of a scandal involving Romney's democratic opponent. Romney was not implicated in this. In fact, the board of directors hired a lawyer to investigate it. So get your facts straight.

CARVILLE: I didn't get the facts nothing. And the liberal "Boston Globe" is going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for "expose"...

NOVAK: The news about another fatal shooting outside Washington today guarantees this will be a sleepless weekend for police and a nervous weekend for everybody else. The victim was pumping gas in Fredericksburg, Virginia. Authorities haven't specifically linked it to the recent string of sniper attacks. But the similarities are all there.

What more can police do to catch this killer? Our guest is attorney and former D.C. homicide detective Ted Williams.

CARVILLE: Ted, I have a theory. Tell me if it's all washed up or does it make any sense. This kind of strikes me as somebody who had either law enforcement training or military training.

TED WILLIAMS, FMR. D.C. HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: You know, I think, James, you're absolutely on target here. This is someone who I believe has some knowledge of weapons and how to use weapons. He has some knowledge of how to get into a venue and get out of that venue. And someone with quasi paramilitary training could very well be the individual who is doing this kind of deed.

NOVAK: Mr. Williams, in the old days, we used to talk about the perfect crime, or read mystery stories about it. Here is a guy who shoots from long range, you can't see him, he gets in his car, he goes away, go changes his venue. Does this have all the earmarks of the perfect crime?

WILLIAMS: No, it's not the perfect crime. I can tell you, as we sit here, that this individual will be caught. As far as I'm concerned, the only perfect crime is perhaps in novels where you know the disposition.

Here, this guy is making every kind of mistake. What is happening now is that he's making these errors. There is certain evidence that he leaves at every one of the crime scenes. And sooner or later, just as we would have a puzzle, law enforcement will be able to put together a puzzle composite.

And they will catch this person, because he will make mistakes. And not only will he make mistakes, but the general public will help law enforcement catch this guy. CARVILLE: Let's go back to my theory that he could have been in law enforcement or military training. Do you think it could be that he's part of al Qaeda or some terrorist thing?

WILLIAMS: We should never dismiss that as being a reality. But on the other hand here, when you're talking about terrorist groups, normally, they put out some kind of a communique to let you know that they have some idea or a cause in mind. And that is not here, James.

NOVAK: But, here is guy, or a woman, or two people, or whoever they are, who could leave at any time. For all we know, they are in the middle of Tennessee right now and could lay low for three months and start this up all over again.

WILLIAMS: This is a blood-thirsty killer or killers. We know that just a few nights ago in Manassas there was a killing. We know about the 13-year Bowie, Maryland child that they shot at. This person is on a killing spree. He's playing a cat and mouse game with police and law enforcement.

He's out to show them that he has the power. That he is better than them. And clearly, I believe, that very soon, unfortunately, he's going to strike again, as he perhaps struck this morning.

NOVAK: Why did he just start now? I mean what -- you know, all of a sudden, bang, bang, bang, bang. Probably never killed anybody before.

WILLIAMS: And I don't know if you can say he never killed anybody before. But there's a pattern here. There's something that happens in a person's life: divorce, disgruntled employee, all of those kinds of scenarios leads to a metamorphosis in a person's life that allows them, unfortunately, to go out here and act like a fool.

CARVILLE: You're an attorney.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

CARVILLE: Do you do criminal defense work?

WILLIAMS: Some.

CARVILLE: If somebody came to you and this guy was caught and said we'll give you a million dollars to represent him. Would you represent this (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

WILLIAMS: I must be very candid with you. In light of the fact that this is a person who has shot a child, this is a person who has, from a distance, went out and shot somebody, I would be so biased. And if you're biased as a lawyer, you should never represent a person. I would have to no, I would have to respectfully decline.

NOVAK: Ted Williams, thank you very much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. NOVAK: In a minute, we'll consider the fallout from the use of force votes on Capitol Hill. For one thing, the Democrats are ready to talk about anything other than Iraq. But realize dealing with Saddam Hussein may not let them.

And later, we'll play a little two on one with NBA great Charles Barkley. Is he about to run for political office? Stick around to see if he makes a big announcement right here on CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Now that Congress is finally done with Iraq, the Democrats are falling all over themselves to change the subject. They staged an obviously partisan economic forum, not that anyone noticed it. But will the voters sit up and notice how their lawmakers voted the use of force resolution?

Stepping into the CROSSFIRE are democratic pollster Stan Greenberg and former White House political director, Ron Kaufman.

CARVILLE: Mr. Kaufman, Mr. Greenberg, a dynamic New England duo here tonight. Mr. Kaufman from the great state of Massachusetts, Mr. Greenberg from the great state of Connecticut.

Mr. Kaufman, let's start. Should this war be a political issue?

RON KAUFMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Absolutely not. It's not a political issue. It's a very important issue to this country. It's the most important thing in people's minds right now, and important to our future and our kids' future, but it's not a political issue.

CARVILLE: So, in other words, we shouldn't politicize this. If somebody voted against this as a result of conscience, we shouldn't make that a political issue. We should move on and move forward, right?

KAUFMAN: Absolutely.

(CROSSFIRE)

NOVAK: Well, I hope Mr. Greenberg has come here to talk politics. Mr. Greenberg, there were 126 Democrats -- 127 Democrats who voted against the resolution in the House of Representatives. Most of them from safe districts.

But already there's a line that's coming up by the Republicans that since Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic Whip, whipped them into that vote, if you vote for a Democrat in a tight district, you're supporting Nancy Pelosi. What do you think of that?

STAN GREENBERG, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Nothing. I mean this -- people were voting here on the war, taking it very seriously. They listened to their constituents, the voters at home.

People had very serious reservations about the war. They worry about Saddam Hussein, they want to wage this war on terrorism. They like to support the president. And they support, in the end, I think, a resolution. But they wanted to make sure it was done right. And I think the Democrats did country proud by raising those issues.

I don't think this was about Nancy Pelosi. She is a great woman. She's going to do very well. But that's not what this was about.

NOVAK: Now you and Mr. Carville here and Bob Shrum, the famous consultant, put out a memo on October 3. And I want to just take one line from that and put it up on the screen. This is unbelievable.

"In order to maintain Democratic morale, it is critical the Democratic supporters of this resolution be articulate about their reservations." In other words, if Democrats want to be patriotic, like Dick Gephardt, the house leader, you should say I really don't like it. That may be the most cynical thing I have ever seen in my 45 years in this town. But tell me, James Carville didn't have any part in writing that, did he?

GREENBERG: I'll tell you what, I will agree not to be cynical about the timing of this whole debate if you're not cynical about these words and what the intention was in that memo. The memo was very clear. And I think James' intention was very clear as well.

We said some Democrats are voting no, some Democrats are voting yes. Let's talk about -- if you're going to take those positions, people are going to vote their conscience, they're going to take those positions, you know you ought to know something about what the American people think about this.

In any case, there's also a context. A large majority of Democrats had reservations about this. Not the fringe. And, you know what, a large majority of the American public had reservations about going it alone. What we were simply is, you don't have to be nervous about that.

(CROSSTALK)

GREENBERG: No, you don't have to be nervous about that. In fact, the people want to hear you voice those view.

CARVILLE: He alluded to the fact that people against us were unpatriotic. You took the patriotic side, like Mr. Gephardt. And what that means is people took the unpatriotic side, like Stan's wife, Congresswoman DeLauro, from Connecticut, who voted for a resolution that said we should (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

See, this is my great problem here, Ron. And I'm glad you cleared it up. We shouldn't be impugning people's patriotism because they have a different view about how we should go to war with Iraq, should we?

KAUFMAN: I agree with that, James. It kills me to agree with you on almost anything, other than he has a brilliant wife, other than that...

CARVILLE: And she is beautiful too. KAUFMAN: Which is more -- never mind, I won't go there. But listen, when you had three democratic Congressmen go over to Iraq and criticize the president from Iraq, that was wrong. That was unpatriotic and bad.

But for members of Congress who care about this country, R or D, to debate this issue is right. And the fact is the president did the right thing. He went to Congress, as he should have. Told Congress what to do. And they gave him what he wanted, both the House and the Senate.

Even though Gephardt and Daschle in the beginning were against it, they saw the light and came the right way. It's good for America that they got. He'll go to the U.N., he'll get national support -- international support.

CARVILLE: Come on, there's nothing else Bush has to run on other than creating this (UNINTELLIGIBLE). The education plan is unfunded, the economy is going I don't know in what direction.

I'm sorry. This is CROSSFIRE. What am I supposed to be, Jim Lehrer or something?

KAUFMAN: Maybe, Jim. Maybe if the Senate would do their jobs. Maybe the Senate would do their job and actually pass a budget and pass appropriations, maybe if it passed pension reform, maybe if it passed (UNINTELLIGIBLE) bills the House passed...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: We're going to have to take a break, but I wanted to ask you a quick question. Straight politics, is Dick Gephardt in trouble with his party for doing the right thing?

GREENBERG: I think Dick Gephardt has the confidence of the Democrats in the Congress. I don't think this was about leadership. I think was about the war and the issues involved.

NOVAK: I wonder if he has the confidence of James Carville.

In a minute, we'll take the Democrats advice and change the subject. But only because Election Day is just around the corner.

Later, we'll head out beyond the three-point line with Charles Barkley. If he's thinking about getting into politics, it's going to be a real long shot. We'll ask him about his plans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: There are 25 days to go until the election. At the rate Republican campaigns keep imploding, there may not be any opposition left by then. Montana's GOP Senate candidate dropped out of the race yesterday. In California, Republican Bill Simon's campaign for governor is being compared to a corpse that's kicking itself. We are talking politics with my wife's dear friend, the former White House political director, Ron Kaufman, and my dear friend, democratic pollster, Stan Greenberg.

NOVAK: Mr. Greenberg, Al Hunt and I on the "NOVAK, HUNT & SHIELDS" program, interviewed for a broadcast tomorrow night at 5:30 PM and on Sunday morning at 10:30 p.m. on CNN. We interviewed Democrat Tim Johnson and Republican John Thune, running in one of the hottest Senate races in South Dakota.

And I asked Senator Johnson, the Democrat, whether he would go along with the leaders in his party, Teddy Kennedy, people like you, and throw back the Bush tax cuts. And let's listen to what Senator Johnson said on our program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM JOHNSON (D), SOUTH DAKOTA: The tax cuts are scheduled to take effect. I think we need to leave those alone for now. I think we need to move on. I support very large tax cuts that will are being phased in over the coming decade. We are going to have to see how the economy stands five and ten years down the road before we make additional decisions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Can we say that intelligent Democrats who want to survive do not go out for rolling back the Bush tax cuts?

GREENBERG: You know what, this is not about Democratic policies. This is about Republican management of the economy. What you've got is you've got an economy in trouble. Consumer confidence falling rapidly, investor confidence rapidly falling.

NOVAK: Why won't you answer my question?

GREENBERG: Look, he is taking, I think, a sensible (UNINTELLIGIBLE) position to evaluate it when it's appropriate. But that's not what -- the tax cuts is not an issue in this election. The overall management or lack of management or lack of interest of the Republicans in the economy...

NOVAK: What's the democratic proposal, then, if it's not rolling back the tax cuts?

GREENBERG: Well, we can start by getting rid of Harvey Pitt. And if we're not going to have a...

NOVAK: That's your solution?

GREENBERG: Well, let's restore confidence for investors and consumers. You can do that by getting rid of Harvey Pitt and begin to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) investment. I'm for a tax cut for the middle class, which wouldn't be a bad idea.

NOVAK: How about for the upper class too? (CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Why is it more important to give all of us at this table a tax cut four years from now instead of putting money in working people's pockets right now in the middle of this recession when they really need it?

KAUFMAN: Which is exactly what the president did when he was first elected. He took the courage and the moral leadership to get a tax cut.

CARVILLE: To give me a tax cut?

KAUFMAN: He gave everyone tax cut.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I know. Great.

KAUFMAN: At least folks out here listen to us. And this Congress should get to work, instead of playing politics. Should get to work and make that permanent so they keep their money.

CARVILLE: No, don't give me and Ken Lay a tax cut. Give it to these people who are trying to educate these children out here in the audience.

KAUFMAN: The problem with our economy right now is that Congress won't do their job. They've got a dozen bills in the Senate the House passed to make this economy better. And the only reason this economy is doing as well as it is is because the president had the courage to push through this Congress...

CARVILLE: You call this Congress doing well?

(CROSSTALK)

KAUFMAN: It could be a lot worse.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Mr. Greenberg, one of the most outrageous power plays in the history of this country took place in New Jersey, where the Senator, Bob Torricelli, Democrat, was failing because of his ethical transgressions. He was a sure loser.

They got him off the ballot in violation of state law, put on old Senator Frank Lautenberg, two-term senator, very well known, against a neophyte Republican. He should be way ahead.

The race is even. And I'll tell you why it's even. Take a look at this commercial by the Republican in New Jersey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I fail this test, can I have Frank Lautenberg take it for me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Torricelli and Lautenberg are teaching our children the wrong lessons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm losing. I quit. Let Frank Lautenberg play for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Isn't that entertaining?

GREENBERG: It's great fun, but wrong. First of all, you're wrong on the polls. Lautenberg is ahead in the polls. And I have no doubt that when this race gets to the issues...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Just a minute, he said something wrong. Rutgers Eagleton, even, 44 percent even.

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). If your campaign candidate told the Newark "Star Ledger" that you wanted to raise the gasoline tax to clean up (UNINTELLIGIBLE), as opposed to charge these corporations, wouldn't you try to change the subject and run some kind of clever thing like that?

KAUFMAN: The good news is going to be when the folks in New Jersey (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the issues, and they look at Lautenberg's record on important things, like defense, intelligence budgets and homeland security things, I'll tell you one thing, Forrester will be elected as the Senator from New Jersey. And the torch of leadership in the Senate will be passed, and it will be passed in New Jersey.

NOVAK: Mr. Greenberg, there's a state senator named Mike Taylor running for the U.S. Senate in Montana. And it's getting contagious, dropping out. And I want to show you the commercial that made him suspend his race. This is a Democratic ad. Let's take a look at it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State Senator Mike Taylor once ran a beauty salon and a hair care school until the Department of Education uncovered Taylor's hair care scam for abusing the student loan program and diverting money to himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Now isn't this just a strictly homophobic ad to say that the guy is gay?

GREENBERG: You have a guy that looks like a goofball who is ripping off the federal guy on student loans. No wonder he suspended his campaign.

CARVILLE: He should have never run after doing something like that. KAUFMAN: Now, James, there you go again. If that was a Republican ad, you would be all over this claiming that's homophobic like crazy.

CARVILLE: They're not Democrats...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: It's homophobic.

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you don't see anything wrong with ripping it up because you don't believe it in the first place. All you believe in is tax cuts for the wealthy. You don't believe in helping kids get through school.

These kids out here can't pay (UNINTELLIGIBLE) student loans to get through that. And this guy has no business ripping the thing off.

NOVAK: I'll tell you something, if these kids applaud that, they deserve the kind of politics that you...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: All right. Thank you very much, Stan Greenberg, Ron Kaufman.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: There are new developments in the sniper investigation here in the Washington area. Anderson Cooper has details next in the CNN "News Alert."

And then we'll ask Charles Barkley if he's trading in his hoop dreams for some political pipe dreams.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Well, Anderson, thank God we got a little economic news to go with this tragedy we have here in Washington, but thanks a lot. We appreciate it.

NOVAK: In a little bit, you'll get your chance to "Fire Back" at us. One viewer has a suggestion about just who the Democrats should be listening to.

Next we will talk to an NBA All-Star who may be turning into a political rookie. We'll find out if Charles Barkley is running for office.

And you won't want to miss our "Quote of the Day." It comes from someone who thought he was getting a prank call this morning. To bad it wasn't.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

No matter how good they are, every professional athlete eventually gets too old and too slow. The injuries started piling up, and they finally have to pick another career. Some go into business or write books. Others try coaching in the media. And a few even get started in politics.

Former NBA star Charles Barkley seems to be doing all of the above, including a new book called "I May Be Wrong, But I Doubt It." To talk about where his mid-life crisis is taking him, Charles Barkley in the CROSSFIRE.

How are you?

CARVILLE: Mr. Barkley, welcome to Power City. Have you ever seen one of these?

CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA STAR: I bet that's the first time you've ever had a basketball in your lap.

CARVILLE: Oh no, man, I blew a free throw to go in the playoffs.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You're in Power City now. This is a political place. Let me ask you a question. Will you or will you not be a candidate for political office in these United States of America?

BARKLEY: Well, it depends on if they try to do the right thing. I don't want to get involved in politics if they're just going to screw up the system and not try to help everybody. So to answer your question, I don't know yet.

CARVILLE: Well come on, Charles. This is -- we're in Washington. If you're going to be in politics -- one of the right thing to do is to say yay or nay. I'm going to do it, or I'm not going to do it. Will you?

BARKLEY: Well, right now the answer is no because the guy only make $88,000 a year and the only way you can make ends meet on that type of job with that type of stress, is fondle money to your friends and other family members. And I don't want to go through that hassle.

So the answer, really, is "no.".

CARVILLE: But you've got a little cash in the bank.

NOVAK: He gave you a no. He gave you a no. He's not going to do it.

CARVILLE: I'm trying to talk him into it. I think he'd be a great candidate.

NOVAK: Mr. Barkley, it's been rumored -- I think you've even said it, but I'm going to ask you straight. Are you a Republican? BARKLEY: I'm not either, to be honest with you. I made a joke with my grandmother one time. I was asking her, Why are we always a Democrat? Because -- I said -- because you know, I don't know, everyone in Alabama is a Democrat. I said, Why are we a Democrat? She said, We'll they're -- Republicans are only for rich people. And I said, I'm rich. And she hasn't gave me a viable answer.

I don't really go with either being a Republican or a Democrat. I like people.

NOVAK: I was reading page 78 of your book. I almost had a stroke when I read it. Let me just put it up on the board. "Half the executives of Enron have participated in Congressional hearings, but nobody's in jail yet. They've stolen millions of dollars and hid it real good. And all those working people, some of them just working class people, have lost their jobs, their pensions, their 401(k) plan."

As a matter of fact, Mr. Barkley, a lot of people in Enron are going to jail. A couple have been indicted. We are not in a communist state. We have a -- it takes a little time. But that is straight Democratic type crap.

What I wants to know is did Michael Willbond (ph) dictate that to you?

Willbond did a great job. But I hope Republicans want to see people who stole all that money go to jail.

NOVAK: Just for people in the audience who might not know it, your collaborator in this book is Michael Willbond, who's a left wing sports writer.

BARKLEY: Left wing?

Michael Willbond is probably the nicest guys I've met. But you know what? You do not have to be a Democrat or a Republican. Those people stole money.

NOVAK: They're going to jail. It takes time.

BARKLEY: We don't know that.

CARVILLE: I bet you if some black kid in Alabama was smoking pot, he'd be in jail in about two seconds.

(CROSSTALK)

BARKLEY: You didn't even finish the rest of it. Because if a poor person, whether they're black or white, if they get caught selling drugs, they take all of their money, their houses and cars. These guys at Enron, some of them paid a fine and they still live in big, nice houses.

NOVAK: This is complicated stuff. You've got to have hearings, you've got to have indictments. CARVILLE: It don't take anything to indictment some -- one of these kids to jail if they're blowing weed.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: That's the point. For what, sex?

BARKLEY: I like Bill Clinton. I like Bill Clinton.

CARVILLE: Best president we've ever had.

(CROSSTALK)

BARKLEY: And I agree with that. You've been around a lot longer -- I mean, a lot longer than these two. You might have been through some other presidents. But as long as I've been alive, Bill Clinton has been the best president.

NOVAK: Well, he's the worst I've ever seen.

CARVILLE: Anybody ever tell you you look like Willbond.

BARKLEY: I'm not that fat.

CARVILLE: You're not that fat?

Let's just say you saw something, you were outraged, you wanted to run for office. What would -- give me the kind of office you would be interested in running in?

NOVAK: He said no. He's not going to run.

BARKLEY: I don't want --

CARVILLE: Let me ask the question.

BARKLEY: I don't want -- you know people say run for city council or run for mayor of my little hometown. I don't want no little rinky dink job. I want a big job so that I can attract a lot attention to it, and the No. 1 thing for me is kids who go to public schools, they're not getting a good education, and we're screwing them.

NOVAK: Now, I want to take another quote out of this book. It didn't give me a headache, but it bothered me. On page 141. Put that up on the screen.

BARKLEY: I'm glad you read the book.

NOVAK: Yes. We're talking about John McCain. You said, "I think he probably got slapped around a bit in the last presidential election. A lot of people really liked him: his platform and the issues he campaigned on. But the Republican party said, Hey, George Bush is going to be the guy."

Now Mr. Barkley, in a basketball game -- I go to a lot of basketball games. And what you do is, you count the points. And the guy -- the team that has the most points at the end of the game, they're the winner. That's the way it is in a primary.

George Bush had more votes. He was the nominee.

BARKLEY: Well first of all, we're not sure he won the last election.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I am. I am 100 percent sure he lost it. It was stolen from him.

BARKLEY: We're not sure that he won the last election. But I think politics -- I think politics, there's a system. And I think Mr. McCain is a terrific person. I've gotten to know a lot about him.

NOVAK: He got a blurb on the back of your book. You praise him in the book. He praises you. One hand washes the other. Is that the way it works?

BARKLEY: That's actually the way it works. I wouldn't want anybody to put a blurb on there who didn't like me.

CARVILLE: Aren't you a constituent? Don't you live in Phoenix?

BARKLEY: I do live in Phoenix.

CARVILLE: So you know Senator McCain, you like him?

BARKLEY: I do. I think he's...

CARVILLE: You know Michael Willbond, you like him?

BARKLEY: He's a great guy.

CARVILLE: Let me tell you, Charles, you were very good on your feet when you played basketball, and you're damn good on your seat on CROSSFIRE too.

NOVAK: Now Dean Smith you've got here, you know he is a tremendous leftist. Did you know that? Dean Smith?

BARKLEY: I know he's a tremendous man. I admire Dean smith.

You know, Bobby Knight might break his record, but the difference between Bobby Knight and Dean Smith is like night and day.

NOVAK: Well some of us prefer Bobby Knight to Dean Smith, of course.

BARKLEY: We're going to get you all in the Enron and solo later.

CARVILLE: I may be wrong but I doubt it. Tell people out there in televisonland who saw this why they ought to buy this book. What is it about it? BARKLEY: It's just a lot about life. There's very little basketball in it. It's just -- I want to teach kids they got to get an education. But we got to find a way to get them an education. It's just about my life. But it's a good book. I'm happy about it.

CARVILLE: Well, you're a terrific guy. You're a terrific basketball player.

NOVAK: How tall were you when you were listed at 6'6?

BARKLEY: The same height today, 6'4.

NOVAK: Thank you very much.

BARKLEY: Thank you.

CARVILLE: Thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate it.

NOVAK: Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, a Democrat finally admits to something I've been saying about their party all along.

But next, our "Quote of the Day." It's also my outrage for the week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: It's one of those inevocable signs of autumn. Year in and year out, we get inevitable boomlet to give Jimmy Carter the Nobel Peace Prize. The admittedly incompetent president, who is supposed a terrific ex-president. Well this year they slipped up and actually gave him the Peace Prize. So we are giving the peanut man from Georgia something else: our "Quote of the Day."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES E. CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: At first I had a feeling of disbelief. And we had a call -- Rosalyn said at two minutes after 4 this morning -- I thought it was some joker who was calling. And they left word that I should call the Nobel Prize Committee at exactly 4:30 our time. And when I did and received the message, I was obviously grateful and, as I said, already humbled and honored.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: You know, James, the Nobel Peace Committee's been making mistakes on that prize, giving it to people like Yasser Arafat and Le Duc Tho. But Jimmy Carter's one of the biggest mistakes. He's the guy that was for the communists in Nicaragua and Fidel Castro in Cuba.

CARVILLE: You know -- I -- it's stunning that you would sit there -- here's a men who's one of the most deeply religious people, goes around building houses for poor people, goes all over the world on his own time, monitor elections, tries to resolve disputes. I mean, what is it about people getting along that so irritates and aggravates you? And what is it about humanitarians that irritates you?

NOVAK: Ask Bill Clinton, he couldn't stand him because he was bothering him all the time he was president.

CARVILLE: Maybe he's personally irritating to some people, but he's a great man. The guy, he gives his heart. He believes in these things. And I don't understand what's wrong with Jimmy Carter.

NOVAK: And he screws up everything he touches.

Next, it's your turn to "Fire Back" at us. One viewer has a suggestion for a fundraiser President Bush could attend, but it'll never happen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: For this whole show, it been our turn. Now we've come to the segment of CROSSFIRE that's your turn. It's your chance to "Fire Back."

"As a dedicated newshound, jockeying around the channels, in search of honest debate, I've come to the conclusion that the only fair and balanced debate show on TV, having equal personalities as hosts, with equal feistiness and sense of humor, is CROSSFIRE." Steve Metz, Manalaplan, New Jersey.

Steve -- mallen -- whatever.

NOVAK: Whatever.

CARVILLE: You a genius.

NOVAK: He's about half right.

CARVILLE: He's a damn genius.

NOVAK: All right, Pam Lowery of Chicago, Illinois says: "Yes, Bob Novak, we democrats are `losers.' We've lost our jobs and out investments. But us `losers' will have faith restored four weeks from today."

Pam, you're a typical losing Democratic whiner. And you'll be whining on November 5.

CARVILLE: Well we won the last election. So go ahead. What you can say?

"Instead of Bush fundraising for his political friends across the nation, why doesn't he hold fundraisers for the 2 million people his economic policies have caused to lose their jobs?" David Christopher, Texas.

Fat chance he'll do that. He always has his and whenever he loses money, he's got Daddy to pick up behind him.

NOVAK: And Brian of Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi says: "Mr. Novak, thank you for getting up each day to do what you do. I wish we had more people like you in America. The Democrats should stop and listen."

Bryan, if I were modest, I'd say don't say that, but I just love it. Thank you very much.

Question, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Vanessa Malton (ph) from San Francisco, California. Why are people like Kathleen Kennedy Townsend turning the sniper shootings into a political issue? People are dying, shouldn't we be focused more on catching the killer?

NOVAK: yes, you're exactly right. And I don't know what you're doing in San Francisco, because you seem intelligent.

I would say that Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, all she knows is what the political consultants tell her: attack, attack, attack, and that's what she does.

CARVILLE: This is why we got a thing on Bush going on a 14-day fundraising trip, we shouldn't be doing this when we are in a economic recession. We claim to (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You know talking about gun control is a little bit -- legitimate issue. And I don't understand what you with -- the problem with discussing issues.

NOVAK: Question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bob Novak, are you sure...

NOVAK: What's your name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Mary Burass (ph), and I'm from Alexandria, Virginia. And I just want to know, are your shoes on too tight or is your heart just a little too small?

NOVAK: Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's about time that Jimmy Carter was recognized for the good work he has done regarding peace globally.

NOVAK: Jimmy Carter was one of the worst presidents we've ever had, only exceeded by Clinton. And he's a bad ex-president too.

Next question.

CARVILLE: He's a fine man, he's a fine man. And I'm glad for him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Al Malton (ph) from Jupiter, California. My question is for James. James, when are the Democrats going to stop demagoguing this issue on the economy?

CARVILLE: What do you mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know as well as I do -- and every other thinking American -- that the Democrats in last year of the Clinton administration are as much to blame with regard to the market and the economy going in reverse.

CARVILLE: You think the Democrats appointed Harvey Pitt and...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You think the Democrats caused the deficit to explode with an irresponsible tax cut?

We got to get out of here tonight.

NOVAK: OK. Say goodbye, James.

CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

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Sniper May have Struck Again With Police Only Yards Away>