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CNN Crossfire

U.S. Weighs Attack on Iraq; 'Sopranos' Banned From NY's Columbus Day Parade

Aired October 14, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson: In the CROSSFIRE: A bombing in Bali.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were people running everywhere and blood.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: As the U.S. weighs an attack on Iraq, with just 22 days to go before the election, what's happening with the war against terror and how will it impact the race?

"The Sopranos" in New York's Columbus Day Parade? Forget about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're all murdering morons who have nothing to do with being Italian.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Two of Washington's most prominent Italian-Americans weigh in.

And for almost 40 years, he's been a legal lightning rod. Johnnie Cochran tonight on his most notorious cases, past and present.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, and welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, renewed al Qaeda terrorist activity, a slumping economy and a campaigning president. We'll debate the issues dominating campaign 2002.

And then, TV's most famous Italian-American family, "The Sopranos," sidelined from New York's Columbus Day Parade. But first, as we do every day, let's begin with the political briefing hotter than a dancer with a bada-bing: the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

A letter attributed to Osama bin Laden and released today warns of new attacks on western economic targets and praises the murder of a U.S. Marine in Kuwait and the bombing of a French oil tanker in Yemen. President Bush today said we will fight if need be the war on terrorism on two fronts. A reference to his commitment to use force to disarm Iraq while continuing to fight al Qaeda.

"I think they're both equally important," Mr. Bush went on to say, "they're both dangerous." He made the remarks in a hastily- called session with reporters on the south lawn of the White House before departing for a day of political fund-raising in Michigan.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And I think the war on terrorism is being fought on more than two fronts already. And as former President Clinton said, the United States can walk and chew gum at the same time, and good for us.

BEGALA: I worry greatly. I know how difficult it is to route out al Qaeda, and I don't want to divert a single bullet until every al Qaeda member is dead to go off and pick a new war with Iraq.

CARLSON: Well, as the president said, I thought as clearly as anybody could say last week, it may not come to war. He laid out a series of reasonable demands of Saddam Hussein. It is up to Saddam Hussein whether we go to war or not, and I hope we don't.

BEGALA: I hope and pray we don't. But I hope we continue this war against al Qaeda as aggressively as we humanly possibly can with no distractions.

CARLSON: I don't think there's any question. I think we will.

The sniper terrorizing the Washington, D.C. suburbs is proving so diabolically effective and so elusive that investigators are wondering if he has had professional training. They've asked military law enforcement units to check their records for any current or recently discharged sniper training military personnel in the Washington area. No one has come up so far, and Pentagon sources say there are no military suspects in the case.

They're also asking about any missing military personnel or anyone discharged under suspicious circumstances. That search has also come up empty and so the search continues.

BEGALA: At this little question-and-answer session again on the south lawn with reporters, the president said this story makes him sick to his stomach. And, you know as parents who live here trying to protect families, I mean I know exactly how he feels. He's our president. He has (ph) an atomic bomb and millions of troops, and yet, I know they're doing all they can, but we don't have an arrest, we don't have a suspect, we don't have anything.

CARLSON: And so some creep in a white van is holding the whole region hostage.

BEGALA: You know there are people here -- I mean people back home should know that people here are living their lives and doing just fine.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Going about, hosting CROSSFIRE night after night.

BEGALA: Yes we are. That's foolish, but not dangerous.

The Christian Coalition -- speaking of foolish and slightly dangerous, the Christian Coalition held its annual road to victory conference here in Washington. And one of the ringmasters of that right wing circus was Oklahoma Republican Senator Jim Inhofe, a man who now won't be able to dine on some of the famous Texas barbecue, I'm sad to say, since his Oklahoma Sooners defeated my Texas Longhorns on Saturday and we bet on the game.

Well, anyway, Senator Inhofe called on the Christian Coalition to vote liberals out of office, saying, "You will be doing the lord's work and he will richly bless you for it." In response, the lord god almighty released the following statement: Who in heavens name instructed Jim Inhofe to speak for me. He's a child of mine, and I love him, but I don't take sides in partisan political contests.

Vote your conscience. And, while you're at it, love your neighbor, stop killing each other, and take better care of the poor.

CARLSON: Well, I wholeheartedly agree with god. It's one of the problems I have with Jesse Jackson getting up there and saying that -- or implying that god supports his team. But I was so struck by this claim that Senator Inhofe would say that, so appalled by it that anybody would make that claim, that I checked the story -- The Associated Press story. And, in fact, there is no quote from Senator Inhofe saying defeat liberals because god wants you to. That's the characterization of the AP reporter, and I really hope she is wrong because that's an awful thing to say if it is true.

BEGALA: Right. But, I mean, as you know, AP runs it right down the middle. This is...

CARLSON: I'm not saying AP is biased.

BEGALA: Right.

CARLSON: I'm just saying it is very hard to believe that Senator Inhofe would get up and say vote against liberals because god wants you to. That is wrong.

BEGALA: Oh, my. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) right wing politicians stand up all the time and pretend somehow god is on their side in this debate. They think it's nonsensical.

CARLSON: Really? The people who come on our show who say that are almost exclusively from the left, so I must have missed it. BEGALA: Nonsense.

CARLSON: Upset about what it calls discrimination against its citizens, Saudi Arabia has announced that it will match new American immigration restrictions with its own similar measures. If the U.S. begins fingerprinting Saudi visitors, Saudi Arabia may do the same to American tourists.

The standoff began shortly after September 11, when investigators learned that 15 of the 19 hijackers had come from Saudi Arabia. Keeping tabs on Saudi visitors, officials argued makes sense. Well now the Saudis are voicing their own concerns about U.S. Citizens in their country.

American tourists, they say, could pose a threat to the national security of Saudi Arabia by, for instance, wearing shorts or drinking wine with dinner or encouraging women to drive automobiles. Immigration officials in the desert kingdom say they will remain vigilant.

BEGALA: Good for you. You know if 15 Americans had gone into Saudi Arabia and, god forbid, created the kind of mass murder that we had here on September 11, the Saudis would respond. I think it is entirely reasonable to say we're going to check carefully before we let people from Saudi Arabia back in.

CARLSON: I think the Saudis have a point. I mean there is a possibility that an American woman could go to Saudi Arabia and get behind the wheel of a car and drive it.

BEGALA: You're exactly right. That's what they're worried about.

CARLSON: And, as you know, that would be a threat to Saudi national security. Because that's illegal in Saudi Arabia.

BEGALA: Well then so you're on the side, though, of the liberals who had filed a suit to allow women soldiers who are there to actually dress...

CARLSON: Of course I am.

BEGALA: Well good for you.

CARLSON: It's appalling.

BEGALA: Good for you. I'm with you. And the president should be on our side, but he is not.

The University of Michigan's preliminary index of consumer sentiment dropped to a nine-year low today. Coincidentally, as I mentioned earlier, our president was in Michigan today but he didn't have a single economic or policy event on his schedule. It was all fund-raising all the time.

The Democrats estimate that Mr. Bush has mentioned, only mentioned the economy, at just 38 official policy events so far this year. But he has appeared at more than 70 political fund-raisers. It appears Mr. Bush cares a lot less about whether you lose your job than whether Republican politicians lose theirs.

CARLSON: I must say, I stand in admiring awe of the gall required for a man who once worked, without any apologies, for Bill Clinton, attacking anybody else for shameless fund-raising. And I have to say, when this president got up and had an economic summit meeting in Waco, Texas, a couple of months ago, you were the first to pounce on him to say that it was just a show.

BEGALA: It was a bad show. It was a joke. It should have closed out of town.

And here is the difference, you might have missed it. Clinton did a good job. He created 22.8 million new jobs. Bush has flushed it all away and is running around doing fund-raising instead.

CARLSON: I'm not rising (ph) to the debate, and I'm not going to get in a debate with you, yet again, about Bill Clinton and how much of his legacy unfortunately we're slogging through at the moment, that's another show. And, in fact, I'm going to have to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because you're getting me upset here.

California Governor Gray Davis had raised at least a total of $64 million for his re-election campaign this year. That sounds like an impressive number until you consider that close to $13 million of that money came from people Davis himself appointed to state boards and commissions. Often they contributed within weeks of receiving their appointments.

The Davis campaign, needless to say, has denied any connection between the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the governor doled out, and the political payoffs he got back. Some of his donors, however, were much more honest. "When you give money to Gray Davis," Hollywood nightclub owner and former parks commissioner Jean La Pietra (ph) told the "L.A. Times," "you get access."

It turns out you can even get appointed to the University of California board of regents, as Norm Patis (ph) did last year. "If you're someone who has been financially supportive, they know who you are," Patis (ph) explained to the paper, "It's that simple." Unfortunately it is.

BEGALA: And you know this is carried around the world on CNN, and I hope all of those American ambassadors, who donated so generously to President Bush and got cushy ambassadorial jobs, are just as outraged as you are about...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I'm defending Bush selling ambassadorships?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Change the subject, Paul. BEGALA: Washington Irving was the great author who wrote the story -- the frightening story -- "The Headless Horseman," terrorizing upstate New York. Well, get ready for the 21st century version: The Headless Toupee. The Traficant toupee, to be specific.

Ripped from its master, former Congressman James Traficant, when he was sent to federal prison, the toupee now haunts billboards in Cincinnati and Dayton, plugging a Halloween fright night at an area amusement park. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the toupee told CROSSFIRE, what can I say? I lost my head but I've got to earn a living.

I wonder if Tucker Carlson would use me instead of the rug he wears.

CARLSON: You know, Paul, when you have a wig as effective and life-like as mine, you don't switch in the middle of your career.

The people have spoken and it turns out they're not impressed with Hillary Clinton. According to a new poll by the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Institute for Public Opinion, a whopping 69 percent of Americans think the former first lady should never, ever run for president. Another 26 percent say she should run, but only some day, as in let's have lunch some day.

Heartening as it is for America, the poll was particularly bad news for Senator Clinton, as it shows a sharp decline in support for her over weaning presidential ambitions from a poll taken just a year and a half ago. Only time will tell if she listens to the will of the people, and I, for one, hope she will, Paul.

BEGALA: This is hilarious. She has now for years said, "I'm not running for president. I don't want to run for president. I want to serve the people of New York." And see, every day, the right wing...

CARLSON: And you believe her? Are you serious?

BEGALA: Tucker, she's a United States senator. She just got elected. She is serving her state and she's doing a hell of a good job. And, by the way, she beat your Republican up there like a bad piece of meat.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: She wants so stand back and let Al Gore and Al Sharpton who, as you know, are your two leading presidential candidates, step in 2004. She's champing at the bit.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I'll tell you what, she's not going to run but I pray she does, because I would pay money to see that debate: Hillary against George W. Bush.

CARLSON: I would love it. I'd love it. Pay per view.

BEGALA: Bring it on, Hillary. We need you. CARLSON: All right. Fresh terror attacks, war with Iraq, how are these and other issues affecting the election, which is now just 23 days away? We'll put John Podesta and Susan Molinari in the CROSSFIRE.

And then, political correctness gone completely amok. Why were "The Sopranos" sidelined from the New York's Columbus Day Parade? And should they have been?

And, he got O.J. off, but how will he do on CROSSFIRE? Johnnie Cochran joins us here in Washington. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. For those at home keeping score, it's just three weeks and a day until Americans head to the polls. The issues are clear: terrorism, Iraq and the economy. What isn't clear is who is going to win.

Joining us to help unravel the mystery, visiting Professor of Law at Georgetown University and former Clinton Chief of Staff, John Podesta, and Republican Strategist and former Congresswoman, Susan Molinari.

SUSAN MOLINARI, FMR. MEMBER OF CONGRESS: Hi, Paul, good to see you again. Hi, tucker.

BEGALA: Let's start.

MOLINARI: I'm not even sitting down yet, for goodness sake.

BEGALA: I know, Susan. But let's start with my favorite topic: it is still the economy, stupid -- not you, stupid. But there was a sign that we put up many years ago.

There is a new ad; it's going to start tomorrow. CROSSFIRE has it tonight. It's run by a group called Main Street USA. It's a liberal group, I'm told. Let me show you a piece of that ad and ask you to comment on how it's going to shape the election.

MOLINARI: OK.

BEGALA: That is one of the best and most frightening ads I've ever seen, because it's just the facts, ma'am, like Joe Friday would say. This is going to be an enormous issue now. Finally, we're going to have an election about the economy, aren't we?

MOLINARI: Well, we were always going to have an election about the economy and who best to lead it and who best to take control and who best to be the spokesperson for either party. This has not changed, even though the president and the Republicans have tried to wage a war on terrorism.

What has changed is that now that Congress and the Democrats in Congress have agreed to go along with the president in allowing him to have a free hand in dealing with the terrorists in Iraq, now we can all focus on the economy. And I think that will benefit the Republican Party.

BEGALA: Well, benefit the Republican Party? With $4 trillion since President Bush took office lost in the stock market, with two million people out of work?

MOLINARI: You know the difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Democrats think people are stupid. Republicans understand people that know why the economy is in the situation that they're in right now. Because this has been very difficult economic times post September 11, when we've had to grapple with something that came our way and the remnants of what was a Clinton economy.

CARLSON: Now John Podesta, it seems to me that what Paul is saying isn't entirely crack pot. I mean the economy is in trouble. You would expect that to hurt an incumbent.

You would also expect there's a long-term trend. Since 1934, the average first midterm for an incumbent president has lost his party 27 congressional seats, it is huge. That's -- nowhere near that is going to happen. The Republicans may actually gain seats, they might lose one or two, but there's not going to be a blowout. Why?

JOHN PODESTA, FMR. WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, I think the Democrats have won seats in the last three elections. That's also an historic anomaly. Redistricting has narrowed the playing field to the number of seats that are now vulnerable. Almost every Congress person now is safe in the seat they're running in, Republican or Democrat.

But I think that -- coming back to Susan's point, I think Susan will be blaming Bill Clinton for the economy eight years from now, I guess. I think the real -- the question that Americans have in front of them is, are the statistics up there? And more, the fact that poverty is going up again, that income is going down.

We've lost two million jobs since George Bush took over. And I think, with all due respect, the thing that people are really saying, I think loud and clear at this point, is the president is not paying attention. His economic team is a disaster. And I think that is why this ad could be particularly...

CARLSON: Well, wait. There is no evidence that people are saying that. There is evidence that people are upset about the economy, but I think the missing link here -- and this is really bad news for Democrats -- is the connection between a slumping economy and the president. There is no poll that shows people blame the president or his party for economic...

PODESTA: They now see the Democrats as doing a better job on the economy than the Republicans. That's a reversal from the beginning of the year.

MOLINARI: As a matter of fact, the polls are showing that people are looking and saying, well, what is the Democratic solution? You put up an ad like that and you talk about this, and yet there has not been one person who has been articulating an economic plan on behalf of the Democrat Party. PODESTA: I think they might start by firing the current economic team that's probably the weakest team that's been in the White House since Jerry Ford invented the win (ph) button. So I think that the Democrats have been for extending unemployment compensation.

MOLINARI: So have the Republicans.

PODESTA: And Republicans have stopped that.

MOLINARI: No, no, no. That is not correct. That is not correct at all. President Bush and the Republicans have endorsed extending unemployment benefits.

PODESTA: They want to raise the minimum wage.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), because you were a brilliant congresswoman, but you're being a little inaccurate, shall we say. The Republican proposal would only unemployment benefits for a very few number of unemployed people. The Democrat proposal would actually extend it for everybody who is unemployed.

And that's the essential difference on that. Instead of just targeting just a few people, the Democrats...

MOLINARI: OK. And where are the Democrats going to get money for that?

BEGALA: Well, I think they should repeal the Bush tax cut to begin with.

(CROSSTALK)

MOLINARI: Well you know, what, Paul? There's not a Democrat that's out there that's even talking about that.

BEGALA: Sure they are.

MOLINARI: So, once again, you guys like to sit back and you like to say the Republicans have led this economic disaster, when, in fact, we have gone over and been in office during a war on terrorism, where the Senate-controlled Democrats have not even produced a budget, nevertheless come up with solutions for reversing an economic down slump.

I think there is a reason why people are not blaming the Republicans in the White House for this.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: John Podesta, I mean, I think we can all agree that the Democrats aren't getting the expected traction out of the economy. I want to show you what they're resorting to instead. This is the now famous ad that ran in Montana against state Senator Mike Taylor run by the Baucus for Senate campaign. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANNOUNCER: State Senator Mike Taylor once ran a beauty salon and hair care school until the Department of Education uncovered Taylor's hair care scam for abusing the student loan program and diverting money to himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: "Once ran a beauty salon." You might add that Bette Midler is his favorite singer. This ad is taking a really clear shot at this guy's sexual orientation and you wouldn't expect that from the Democrats, would you?

PODESTA: It is taking a very clear shot at the fact that he's ripping off the student loan program. It seems to me that that's, in fact, a...

CARLSON: I wonder why, first of all, they say he ran a beauty salon. But I wonder why they have a video of him massaging another man's face? I would think that Democrats constituents, like the transgender community, would be up in arms over this obvious attack on the guy's sexuality.

MOLINARI: You know what I think it proves? I think it proves that no one should have had cameras in the '70s, because everybody looked really goofy.

PODESTA: That evidently was his commercial, so, you know, I don't know what your point is here.

BEGALA: Let me ask you, Susan, about a specific race (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that is not amusing to anybody on either side, and that's in the state of Georgia. Saxby Chambliss is a Republican congressman, he's a well thought of guy. He's a nominee for the Senate. He's running against Max Cleland, who lost both legs and an arm on the field of honor in Vietnam. A highly decorated Army captain.

This is a bit of the ad that Saxby Chambliss is running against Max Cleland, a triple amputee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: America faces terrorists and extremist dictators. Max Cleland runs television ads...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: It links Osama bin Laden visually to Max Cleland. Now we all know I used to do run (ph) campaigns. Seventy-five percent of what we get from TV is the visual image. That image goes straight from Osama bin Laden to Max Cleland and then it says, "Max Cleland says he has the courage to lead, but the record proves that's just misleading." Isn't it outrageous to impugn the courage of a man who lost three limbs in service to this country?

MOLINARI: I think it's accurate to impugn political courage. And when somebody votes against the office of homeland security 11 times, he is, in fact, weakening America's hand to deal with international terrorists.

BEGALA: There is a legitimate argument about whether the Bush version of the homeland security bill or the democratic version of the homeland security bill -- which Democrats were for before Bush was for it -- is the better one. You can have a legitimate debate. There are honorable arguments...

(CROSSTALK)

PODESTA: And Cleland supports that.

BEGALA: And Cleland supports that, but to put him up on a screen with Osama bin Laden and attack his courage, I mean, come on, there ought to be some things that are beyond the pail.

MOLINARI: Well, I think what Saxby was trying to say is that courage to lead in a political standpoint. One can be a war hero and also lack courage in the political arena. Is that inconsequential? Are you not supposed to point that out when someone consistently votes against President Bush and then tries to portray himself not as a liberal but as an extreme (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

PODESTA: If I ever get in trouble, I'm hiring Susan to be my lawyer because it is impossible to defend that outrage, really.

CARLSON: I just want you to weigh in on the tragedy now unfolding in New York. Carl McCall, Democrat, getting slaughtered at 26 points against George Pataki's 43. One of the great national spokesman of your party, Al Sharpton, the other day came out to the "Daily News" and said, "The national Democratic Party is failing Carl McCall miserably," pointing out that prominent national Democrats have not come to this guy's defense.

I want to add my voice to that of Al Sharpton and ask you why.

PODESTA: Well, I think that it's not true. I think that former President Clinton, Senator Clinton, Al Gore's been up there doing events for McCall. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) McCall has been up there trying to raise money for him. And I think that Pataki obviously has benefited from what's going on in the state the past year. I think he got sympathy from the people in the state.

He started into the campaign strongly. But I think this race is not over. McCall is running a good race. They had a good debate yesterday.

And I think it's now become a three-way race, with Golisano really coming on as strong.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Susan Molinari, Republican congresswoman -- they're actually going to come back in just a minute. We have to go to break, though. First, rain, you know, was not the only problem and the New York Columbus Day Parade. "The Sopranos," they're coming up -- or rather a couple of people debating whether the stars of that mega mob hit should have been banned from the Big Apple's big parade. We'll ask these two very same prominent Italian-Americans to discuss why Carmela and Tony and the rest were banned. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. Time to reveal our CROSSFIRE quote of the day. It comes from a well known conservative preacher and frequent CROSSFIRE guest who called the prophet Mohammed a violent man, a man of war and a terrorist. Muslims around the world were understandably outraged. At least five people were killed in the rioting that followed.

Over the weekend, the reverend Jerry Falwell issued what he called a statement of reconciliation, saying he meant no disrespect and blaming what he called a loaded question. He went on to say this of his remark -- our quote of the day -- "That was a mistake and I apologize."

CARLSON: In other words, please don't hurt me. I think he was talking to his old friend Salmon Rushdie and just decided, you know, it's not worth it. I'll take it back.

BEGALA: Kind of like he says, "I meant no disrespect." I called a prophet a terrorist, but other than that...

CARLSON: Probably the prudent move.

Is life more painful for redheads? That story, plus today's headlines, next in a CNN NEWS ALERT. And still ahead, "The Sopranos" out of New York's Columbus Day Parade and into the CROSSFIRE. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Well, the glove didn't fit and he got the jury to acquit. Johnnie Cochran has been a household name ever since. Controversial and charismatic lawyer steps into the CROSSFIRE with more controversial cases ahead.

But first, "The Sopranos" whacked by New York's Columbus Day parade when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University, home of the Fighting Colonials here in Washington, D.C.

You know, it is one of the most popular shows on television, no question about that. Some people question whether "The Sopranos" perpetuates negative stereotypes about Italian-Americans. That alone is enough to get the show's stars uninvited from New York City's Columbus Day parade. Here to put the question in the CROSSFIRE, two of Washington's most prominent Italian-Americans, welcome back, Republican former Congresswoman Susan Molinari and former Clinton's chief of staff in the White House, John Podesta.

CARLSON: John Podesta, this truly is where life and parody meet. I want to read you a quote from New York City Councilman Tony Avella. Here is his take on this: "I know the show is only entertainment, but too many people think that those mobsters represent all Italian- Americans, and letting them march in the parade perpetuates that." So the new oppressed minority group is member of the Mafia. That's basically the bottom line here.

JOHN PODESTA, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, I think you're proving his point there, Tucker. I think that, look, I don't want to...

CARLSON: I hoped to.

(CROSSTALK)

PODESTA: I don't want to sound like Al Sharpton, you know, your favorite political leader attacking "Barbershop," but I think that when you look at this show and you see the stereotypes that come forward on the show, it's not only embarrassing to Italian-Americans, I think it's embarrassing to New Jerseyites. I mean, these people, they have no honor, they have no dignity. I'm not against any show that...

CARLSON: And it's totally inaccurate, you think?

PODESTA: I think it's so over the top and so silly. You have these anxiety-prone, Prozac-popping, cocaine-sniffing guys, and I'm just waiting for Susan to defend the lifestyle. I know she's from Staten Island. I'm from Chicago, so maybe, you know...

SUSAN MOLINARI, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: What are you trying to say? What are you trying to say there, Tony?

Let me just say, because one of the reasons that I think this is so goofy is because there are so many Italians who are out there who represent everything that are not "The Sopranos." I mean, you have Rudy Giuliani, you have Richard Grasso, the head of Nasdaq (sic), the woman who is head of -- CEO of -- the New York Stock Exchange. You have the woman who's head of Saks Fifth Avenue is Italian-American. You have Andrea Bocelli. We have nothing to prove out there as Italian-Americans that there is a Mafia, but there are also so many tremendous leaders in all of these fields that this is nothing.

CARLSON: It is not really run by Italians, though, the Mafia.

BEGALA: It is though -- it's their parade. This is what William Fugazy, who you know, he's the president of the Coalition of Italian- Americans Associations, this is what he said about the parade, why they didn't want the actors from "The Sopranos" -- and I have to say, I love the show. I think the actors are great.

MOLINARI: Great job.

BEGALA: But here's -- but I'm not Italian. My name ends in a vowel, but I'm not Italian. Here is what Fugazy says, though: "Our parade is about heritage and pride. Certainly, "The Sopranos" haven't done much for heritage and pride in our community." Now, this is your guy here.

MOLINARI: Well, but the truth is that the two actors that were invited in by Mayor Bloomberg have. They're exceptional actors, they've done a lot for New York City, they're Italian-American New Yorkers. I think if they had invited Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro, would anybody have said, you know, forget it, we don't want them in our parade because they were in the movie "The Godfather." On the contrary, people would acknowledge them as actors who play a part, but who are also proud Italian-Americans who have contributed to the vitality of New York City.

CARLSON: Well, John Podesta, you said a moment ago that this show was a slur on New Jersey. And I wonder if it hasn't had an effect on the Senate race there. Last year, it was reported that the senator from New Jersey, senior senator, Robert Torricelli, had bragged about having friends in organized crime. A year later, he's forced to drop out of the race. Do you think that he's been the victim of unfair stereotyping? Just because he brags about having friends in the Mafia, all of a sudden he has to get out of the race?

PODESTA: Tucker, I have no idea what you're talking about, but certainly it had nothing -- nothing to do with him.

(CROSSTALK)

PODESTA: It had nothing to do with him dropping out of the race. We all know why he did drop out of the race. And Frank Lautenberg is going to win that race in New Jersey.

CARLSON: But do you think unfair stereotyping was at work here? I mean, here is -- Torricelli is an Italian-American, he's been accused of having ties to the mob?

PODESTA: Susan raised "The Godfather." It is an interesting, I think, counter-example of a popular culture movie that actually portrays people that are interesting, that have dignity, that have character.

MOLINARI: But are members of organized crime.

PODESTA: Take the -- take the difference between, you know, one of the most tragic, poignant scenes when Fredo goes out for his last boat ride on Lake Tahoe with -- and compare that with the scenes in "The Sopranos" where they're whacking the...

MOLINARI: So let me make the argument, however, that "The Godfather," one of my favorite movies of all time, so I'm surely schizophrenic on this, glorifies the Mafia where "The Sopranos" shows them as the thug heads that they are.

BEGALA: Well, let me show you something, Susan. This may be a little...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... a little piece of videotape that I'm going to narrate here. Let's watch this, put it up on a big screen. This is about two years ago. You competed in the funniest celebrity in Washington contest. Audience should know, you kicked my butt and Tucker's butt both. This is a takeoff of the opening of "The Sopranos," and who is that behind that wheel? Not James Gandolfini, Susan Molinari. There you are. And I hope your girls aren't watching when you were smoking there.

MOLINARI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I know. I was only acting, girls.

BEGALA: So you've taken part in this. Did you get any heat from the Italian-American community for playing this part of a mobster in this...

MOLINARI: I don't think up until this moment they knew about this.

BEGALA: I'm sorry that we...

MOLINARI: But thanks for sharing. No, look, it is a great show, it is good fun. These actors are incredible. And again, I'm just so proud to be Italian-American, I don't have to be threatened by the fact that there are, you know, these people who are out there who act like jerks 90 percent of the time on the show, because there are so many other great leaders who are of Italian-American descent. I think everybody has just got to lighten up on this.

PODESTA: I agree with that.

CARLSON: Well, on that note of agreement, thank you both very much. John Podesta, Susan Molinari, thank you for joining us.

"Fireback" is still ahead. More backhanded compliments from Canada.

But first, you know him from O.J., now see him in the CROSSFIRE. Meet Johnnie Cochran next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. He's been a lawyer for almost 40 years, and for just as long he's been in the middle of some of our country's most controversial legal cases. Now, Johnnie Cochran has written a new book about his career. It's called "A Lawyer's Life."

Earlier this afternoon, we caught up with the attorney.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON: Johnnie Cochran, thank you very much for joining us.

JOHNNIE COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: It's my pleasure, Tucker.

CARLSON: Let me start with the obvious question about O.J. Simpson. Is your conscience bothered in any way that you helped convince a jury to acquit a double murderer?

COCHRAN: Well, I think that that fact assumes facts not in evidence. That statement, that question does. No, my conscience is not bothered, because what I did was I represented a client who maintained his innocence. He went through the process. A jury, 12 people from the community there, who were the conscience of the community of Los Angeles, you know, found him not guilty at the end of the trial. And you know, people don't realize this, as Thomas Jefferson said, the anchor of all our liberties are jury trials. And I think you can really appreciate that. And they finally found him not guilty, and they said pretty much en masse how much reasonable doubt did we need?

So, no, we did our job. In fact, you know, if we had a system which everybody surmised of what the results should be, we'd be in pretty much trouble.

CARLSON: We sure would. But it is interesting that you just said that, because you have a fascinating vignette early in your book, in which you describe a similar case many years from before, earlier in your career, when you defended a man accused of murder.

COCHRAN: Yes.

CARLSON: He was acquitted, but you had found out that he had, in fact, done it, just as we now -- it's pretty obvious that O.J. did it. And in the book, you go to a church and you pray and ask forgiveness. Did you ever feel the need to do that after the O.J. trial?

COCHRAN: No, not at all. O.J. Simpson maintains to this day that he's innocent.

CARLSON: I know, but everybody knows he did it.

COCHRAN: I don't know if everybody knows that or not. I mean, a lot of people believe he didn't do it. A lot of people think there really was not enough time, that if you look at the facts of the case -- but we won't retry that case. It's seven years old now. But in that other case, it's very true. I'm not pro murder. I am obviously -- I was assistant DA for L.A. County, and I'm concerned about justice and injustice. And that's what this book is about, is, you know, fighting injustice.

And in that particular case, a person confesses to you in an attorney/client relationship, and then you have to -- and there is no more witnesses, obviously, to call, and you can't reveal this to anybody, and I had to mask who this person is, obviously. And you have to deal with that. It was a horrible situation, really. That was not the Simpson case, too, I might add.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about injustice. O.J. Simpson, seemed to me, got off because he could hired you. He was a rich man. Well, even more importantly in the system, I think, not if you're black or if you're white, but if you're rich. He could hire you, he could hire Barry Sheck, Shapiro, he could hire the dream team of the best lawyers in the whole world.

Is there any doubt in your mind that if he were a poor man with a court-appointed lawyer, that he'd be sitting on death row today?

COCHRAN: He'd be in prison, there is no doubt in my mind. We have a saying we've thought about all of my career, innocent until proven broke. And there is not question about it. That's exactly what would have happened, and that's what happens in our system.

And that doesn't make it right. We should do more. I mean, if you think of the system as being like a three-legged stool, prosecution is strong and you appreciate that. The judiciary is strong and hopefully independent. The defense doesn't get adequate funding. They're overworked, they're underpaid, they don't have the resources. Legal aid, public defender's office. And it's unfair.

Witness the number of people the Innocence Project gets out almost weekly who have been convicted, who are by DNA are determined to be innocent.

BEGALA: And this is Barry Sheck, one of your co-counsel...

COCHRAN: My co-counsel, and my partner in New York, Barry Sheck, and Peter Neufeld, the Innocence Project.

BEGALA: How much pro bono work do you do? I mean, we know that you worked for O.J. Simpson. We know you worked for Puff Daddy, or P. Diddy, or (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

COCHRAN: I do a lot of pro bono work, and probably the greatest case of pro bono work that I've done, you know the case of "Geronimo" Pratt, which is a case that defines me. This is a case that I tried in 1972. He was convicted in '72, and I worked 25 years to get...

BEGALA: Convicted of murder.

COCHRAN: Of murder, first degree, and he was innocent.

BEGALA: Of a cop, right?

COCHRAN: Not a cop, but the lady on the tennis court murder. He was a leader of the Black Panther Party. I worked 25 years without pay to get him -- to prove he was a victim of the FBI's counterintelligence program, which we did, and he was released in 1997. So we do a lot of that, you know.

CARLSON: It seems to me that a much greater injustice, even that, even assuming that what you said is accurate, is the fact that the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman are, as yet, unsolved. The real killers are still out there, and I wonder how much time and money you've put toward finding the real killers?

COCHRAN: Well, I haven't put much time or money toward that, but what I've done is whenever any leads came to us, we referred them to the LAPD. There were, in fact, investigators who had looked at this.

But you know, the problem with that, Tucker, is the LAPD made a decision. They made a rush to judgment, as we characterize it. They don't want to hear about anybody else, ever. And so if you had any other leads, they didn't ever follow up on them. They didn't do a very good job on any of the leads they had anyway, but they didn't do a good job on them, and that's a real problem. And you know, that's their role as the police to investigate.

CARLSON: Let me ask you about a case, quickly, that's being investigated now, and that's the sniper case going on here in Washington and in surrounding counties. If this person were apprehended, the suspect, would you defend him?

COCHRAN: No, I wouldn't. In fact, I tried the case involving Sean "Puffy" Combs in New York last year. And I said at that time that would be the last criminal case that I would handle, and it has been and it continues to be. I've turned all others down. And I'm going to continue to do that. I am not going to try any more criminal cases.

CARLSON: You take digs at others, a number of other people, including Clarence Thomas, and you make an allegation that struck me as sort of unfair. I wonder if you can explain a little bit. You said that here's Clarence Thomas -- you're a defender of affirmative action -- but that it was outrageous that Clarence Thomas benefited from affirmative action in his appointment to the Supreme Court. So the impression that one is left with is you are opposed to affirmative action when it helps people you disagree with politically.

COCHRAN: Oh, no, not at all. No. The point I was trying to make in the book was that I think that for affirmative action, whether you agree with it or not, it's not a perfect solution, but it's not permanent. It recognizes past wrongs, and it tries to remedy them. People talk about it leveling the playing field, with some kind of sunset provision at the end.

I thought that looking at Justice Thomas' background and career from Pinpoint (ph), Georgia where he came from, that he had benefited from affirmative action as he made his way up. And that now, though, he's one of the staunchest opponents to it. So I don't think that you can use the bridge to cross, affirmative action, and then burn it down for everybody coming behind you. I don't think you do that. That's my basic criticism. He's a nice gentleman, but that's my criticism.

CARLSON: Well, also, you mentioned past wrongs, and you're a supporter of slavery -- reparations for slavery. And I just wondered if you could boil down quickly why someone who makes as much as you should get money from the rest of us who don't make nearly as much as you for something that never, you know, that you didn't personally endure?

COCHRAN: Well, you assume the facts that aren't in evidence, that I make so much more money than you do.

(CROSSTALK) COCHRAN: Well, the right and left are agreeing against me. No, I would take nothing from this. And let me make this clear: Myself, my role in this whole thing in representing along with Charles Ogletree (ph), Harvard law professor, the Reparations Coordinating Committee, we are pro bono on this thing. You talked about pro bono work, this is pro bono.

What I think we need to do and what we try to do in this whole thing is reinitiate a conversation that began 137, 130 years ago with ancestors past. I don't think this country has ever come to grips with one of the greatest wrongs ever done to humanity. The government sanctioned slavery, and it was wrong.

Tucker, you didn't own any slaves, but you benefited mightily from the free labor source from all the slaves who went before. And what I'm saying in this society today...

CARLSON: No, I didn't.

COCHRAN: Yes, you did. You benefited. You had unearned privilege. They had unearned suffering, and you had unearned privilege by virtue of free labor source. You and your relatives and people before you.

But now, I think what we have to do is that there are people who suffered mightily and they continue to, because they're bottom stuck in this society. I'm saying it applies to them. Not any some -- I'm looking for some check for 40 acres and a new SUV for every African- American, that's not what I'm looking for.

What I think we need to do is do something from an educational recommends, or maybe some economic recommends, where people who have really been held back by virtue of the fact they were slaves, second class citizenships, whatever, the second class citizens, whatever they are today. And that's really what it is.

So I think that this would be administered by some entity that would be fair. I would get nothing out of this. And I don't want anything. People similarly situated with me, so I think there is a lot of misunderstanding.

I think if this lawsuit is ever filed, you'll be surprised at the approach that we would take, to really have a discussion about it. You know, it's not like there is this pink elephant in the middle of the room and we're not going talk about race in America or slavery having existed in America. And I think we need to do that. I real do.

BEGALA: Johnnie Cochran, "A Lawyer's Life," thank you very much for coming to CROSSFIRE.

COCHRAN: Good to be with you. My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you.

CARLSON: All right. When we come back, regime change in Canada. Many think it's a good idea. One viewer sounds off in "Fireback" when CROSSFIRE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for our "Fireback" segment. As usual, our Canadian viewers riled up again. But first, we go to Steven Scarlata of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, who writes: "It's not 'The Sopranos' in isolation that's the problem, it's the virtual industry that has evolved from the stereotyping of Italian- Americans. For every one Tony Soprano, there are a dozen Donnie Brascos and Mickey Blue-Eyes. Give us a break, Hollywood." He might have added, or we'll break your legs.

BEGALA: How many about that my mother whole family's is Irish? There is a new movie coming out, "Gangs of New York," I think it's about like the Irish Mafia in New York. Do I get the...

CARLSON: See, you're oppressed too, Paul. You're oppressed.

BEGALA: OK, Roz Singer, apparently, not oppressed from Princeton, New Jersey writes in: "Paul, don't you think that George Bush traveling around for 14 days raising funds and campaigning for Republican candidates is like Nero fiddling as Rome burns?" Well, Roz, yes.

CARLSON: Why does Roz capitalize fiddling? Makes me nervous.

BEGALA: Nero Fiddling was actually his last name. Very few people know that. He was Nero Fiddling.

CARLSON: Ann Owens from Alberta, Canada writes in: "I was delighted to hear you refer to Canada as a foreign country" -- accurately, I believe. "We like our country and our system of government and have no desire to become a republic. Tucker's inability to pronounce our prime minister's name" -- that would be Jean Chretien -- "would not constitute a valid reason for regime change." On the other hand, Ann, it might. You never know. I guess we'll make that decision, won't we?

BEGALA: A lovely country filled with lovely people. I don't know why you're always harping...

CARLSON: I love Canada. I just feel like they're taking up vital space that could be used for satellite parking for the state of New York.

BEGALA: Here comes more e-mail. Jim McDermott from Houston, Texas, my home town says: "My father taught me politics when I was growing up in the '50s. He taught me that he could disagree with others, but was always respectful of their opinions. "CROSSFIRE" reflects those same values. Refreshing and challenging debate, the way politics should be." We have got to get a lot nastier. We have got to be more rude, Tucker.

CARLSON: Really? I like that part about values. That's what CROSSFIRE is about in the end, isn't it, Paul? Values. BEGALA: It's about family values. We're going to hug and sing kumbayah just after the show. But what is your question or comment, sir? Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think that the TV series "The Sopranos" is any more representative of Italian culture than serving spaghetti and dago red three meals a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year is representative of Italian cuisine.

CARLSON: But "The Sopranos" is less fattening, I think you'll agree. The good thing about "The Sopranos" is I don't think that it purports to be a representation of Italian culture. It's, in fact, fiction. It is not real.

BEGALA: Right. It is a terrific show. And people ought to lighten up. Yes, ma'am. What's your question or comment?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, my name is Dorothy Casseteri (ph). I'm a senior here at GW, and I'm from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Being an Italian-American, I have a little bit of a comment about the controversy involving "The Sopranos." Watching the episode a few weeks ago that where they were talking about Columbus Day, and while they may have connected it with the violence, while I was watching it, I realized that many non-Italian friends of mine and even some Italian friends of mine had no idea before that episode that Columbus Day is an Italian holiday. And through that episode that's how they realized it.

CARLSON: See, so it's not just entertainment, it's education.

BEGALA: Thanks to "The Sopranos," thank you for your question, Dorothy.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night, Tuesday night, for yet another edition of CROSSFIRE.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Columbus Day Parade>


Aired October 14, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson: In the CROSSFIRE: A bombing in Bali.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were people running everywhere and blood.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: As the U.S. weighs an attack on Iraq, with just 22 days to go before the election, what's happening with the war against terror and how will it impact the race?

"The Sopranos" in New York's Columbus Day Parade? Forget about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're all murdering morons who have nothing to do with being Italian.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Two of Washington's most prominent Italian-Americans weigh in.

And for almost 40 years, he's been a legal lightning rod. Johnnie Cochran tonight on his most notorious cases, past and present.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, and welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, renewed al Qaeda terrorist activity, a slumping economy and a campaigning president. We'll debate the issues dominating campaign 2002.

And then, TV's most famous Italian-American family, "The Sopranos," sidelined from New York's Columbus Day Parade. But first, as we do every day, let's begin with the political briefing hotter than a dancer with a bada-bing: the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

A letter attributed to Osama bin Laden and released today warns of new attacks on western economic targets and praises the murder of a U.S. Marine in Kuwait and the bombing of a French oil tanker in Yemen. President Bush today said we will fight if need be the war on terrorism on two fronts. A reference to his commitment to use force to disarm Iraq while continuing to fight al Qaeda.

"I think they're both equally important," Mr. Bush went on to say, "they're both dangerous." He made the remarks in a hastily- called session with reporters on the south lawn of the White House before departing for a day of political fund-raising in Michigan.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And I think the war on terrorism is being fought on more than two fronts already. And as former President Clinton said, the United States can walk and chew gum at the same time, and good for us.

BEGALA: I worry greatly. I know how difficult it is to route out al Qaeda, and I don't want to divert a single bullet until every al Qaeda member is dead to go off and pick a new war with Iraq.

CARLSON: Well, as the president said, I thought as clearly as anybody could say last week, it may not come to war. He laid out a series of reasonable demands of Saddam Hussein. It is up to Saddam Hussein whether we go to war or not, and I hope we don't.

BEGALA: I hope and pray we don't. But I hope we continue this war against al Qaeda as aggressively as we humanly possibly can with no distractions.

CARLSON: I don't think there's any question. I think we will.

The sniper terrorizing the Washington, D.C. suburbs is proving so diabolically effective and so elusive that investigators are wondering if he has had professional training. They've asked military law enforcement units to check their records for any current or recently discharged sniper training military personnel in the Washington area. No one has come up so far, and Pentagon sources say there are no military suspects in the case.

They're also asking about any missing military personnel or anyone discharged under suspicious circumstances. That search has also come up empty and so the search continues.

BEGALA: At this little question-and-answer session again on the south lawn with reporters, the president said this story makes him sick to his stomach. And, you know as parents who live here trying to protect families, I mean I know exactly how he feels. He's our president. He has (ph) an atomic bomb and millions of troops, and yet, I know they're doing all they can, but we don't have an arrest, we don't have a suspect, we don't have anything.

CARLSON: And so some creep in a white van is holding the whole region hostage.

BEGALA: You know there are people here -- I mean people back home should know that people here are living their lives and doing just fine.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Going about, hosting CROSSFIRE night after night.

BEGALA: Yes we are. That's foolish, but not dangerous.

The Christian Coalition -- speaking of foolish and slightly dangerous, the Christian Coalition held its annual road to victory conference here in Washington. And one of the ringmasters of that right wing circus was Oklahoma Republican Senator Jim Inhofe, a man who now won't be able to dine on some of the famous Texas barbecue, I'm sad to say, since his Oklahoma Sooners defeated my Texas Longhorns on Saturday and we bet on the game.

Well, anyway, Senator Inhofe called on the Christian Coalition to vote liberals out of office, saying, "You will be doing the lord's work and he will richly bless you for it." In response, the lord god almighty released the following statement: Who in heavens name instructed Jim Inhofe to speak for me. He's a child of mine, and I love him, but I don't take sides in partisan political contests.

Vote your conscience. And, while you're at it, love your neighbor, stop killing each other, and take better care of the poor.

CARLSON: Well, I wholeheartedly agree with god. It's one of the problems I have with Jesse Jackson getting up there and saying that -- or implying that god supports his team. But I was so struck by this claim that Senator Inhofe would say that, so appalled by it that anybody would make that claim, that I checked the story -- The Associated Press story. And, in fact, there is no quote from Senator Inhofe saying defeat liberals because god wants you to. That's the characterization of the AP reporter, and I really hope she is wrong because that's an awful thing to say if it is true.

BEGALA: Right. But, I mean, as you know, AP runs it right down the middle. This is...

CARLSON: I'm not saying AP is biased.

BEGALA: Right.

CARLSON: I'm just saying it is very hard to believe that Senator Inhofe would get up and say vote against liberals because god wants you to. That is wrong.

BEGALA: Oh, my. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) right wing politicians stand up all the time and pretend somehow god is on their side in this debate. They think it's nonsensical.

CARLSON: Really? The people who come on our show who say that are almost exclusively from the left, so I must have missed it. BEGALA: Nonsense.

CARLSON: Upset about what it calls discrimination against its citizens, Saudi Arabia has announced that it will match new American immigration restrictions with its own similar measures. If the U.S. begins fingerprinting Saudi visitors, Saudi Arabia may do the same to American tourists.

The standoff began shortly after September 11, when investigators learned that 15 of the 19 hijackers had come from Saudi Arabia. Keeping tabs on Saudi visitors, officials argued makes sense. Well now the Saudis are voicing their own concerns about U.S. Citizens in their country.

American tourists, they say, could pose a threat to the national security of Saudi Arabia by, for instance, wearing shorts or drinking wine with dinner or encouraging women to drive automobiles. Immigration officials in the desert kingdom say they will remain vigilant.

BEGALA: Good for you. You know if 15 Americans had gone into Saudi Arabia and, god forbid, created the kind of mass murder that we had here on September 11, the Saudis would respond. I think it is entirely reasonable to say we're going to check carefully before we let people from Saudi Arabia back in.

CARLSON: I think the Saudis have a point. I mean there is a possibility that an American woman could go to Saudi Arabia and get behind the wheel of a car and drive it.

BEGALA: You're exactly right. That's what they're worried about.

CARLSON: And, as you know, that would be a threat to Saudi national security. Because that's illegal in Saudi Arabia.

BEGALA: Well then so you're on the side, though, of the liberals who had filed a suit to allow women soldiers who are there to actually dress...

CARLSON: Of course I am.

BEGALA: Well good for you.

CARLSON: It's appalling.

BEGALA: Good for you. I'm with you. And the president should be on our side, but he is not.

The University of Michigan's preliminary index of consumer sentiment dropped to a nine-year low today. Coincidentally, as I mentioned earlier, our president was in Michigan today but he didn't have a single economic or policy event on his schedule. It was all fund-raising all the time.

The Democrats estimate that Mr. Bush has mentioned, only mentioned the economy, at just 38 official policy events so far this year. But he has appeared at more than 70 political fund-raisers. It appears Mr. Bush cares a lot less about whether you lose your job than whether Republican politicians lose theirs.

CARLSON: I must say, I stand in admiring awe of the gall required for a man who once worked, without any apologies, for Bill Clinton, attacking anybody else for shameless fund-raising. And I have to say, when this president got up and had an economic summit meeting in Waco, Texas, a couple of months ago, you were the first to pounce on him to say that it was just a show.

BEGALA: It was a bad show. It was a joke. It should have closed out of town.

And here is the difference, you might have missed it. Clinton did a good job. He created 22.8 million new jobs. Bush has flushed it all away and is running around doing fund-raising instead.

CARLSON: I'm not rising (ph) to the debate, and I'm not going to get in a debate with you, yet again, about Bill Clinton and how much of his legacy unfortunately we're slogging through at the moment, that's another show. And, in fact, I'm going to have to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because you're getting me upset here.

California Governor Gray Davis had raised at least a total of $64 million for his re-election campaign this year. That sounds like an impressive number until you consider that close to $13 million of that money came from people Davis himself appointed to state boards and commissions. Often they contributed within weeks of receiving their appointments.

The Davis campaign, needless to say, has denied any connection between the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the governor doled out, and the political payoffs he got back. Some of his donors, however, were much more honest. "When you give money to Gray Davis," Hollywood nightclub owner and former parks commissioner Jean La Pietra (ph) told the "L.A. Times," "you get access."

It turns out you can even get appointed to the University of California board of regents, as Norm Patis (ph) did last year. "If you're someone who has been financially supportive, they know who you are," Patis (ph) explained to the paper, "It's that simple." Unfortunately it is.

BEGALA: And you know this is carried around the world on CNN, and I hope all of those American ambassadors, who donated so generously to President Bush and got cushy ambassadorial jobs, are just as outraged as you are about...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I'm defending Bush selling ambassadorships?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Change the subject, Paul. BEGALA: Washington Irving was the great author who wrote the story -- the frightening story -- "The Headless Horseman," terrorizing upstate New York. Well, get ready for the 21st century version: The Headless Toupee. The Traficant toupee, to be specific.

Ripped from its master, former Congressman James Traficant, when he was sent to federal prison, the toupee now haunts billboards in Cincinnati and Dayton, plugging a Halloween fright night at an area amusement park. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the toupee told CROSSFIRE, what can I say? I lost my head but I've got to earn a living.

I wonder if Tucker Carlson would use me instead of the rug he wears.

CARLSON: You know, Paul, when you have a wig as effective and life-like as mine, you don't switch in the middle of your career.

The people have spoken and it turns out they're not impressed with Hillary Clinton. According to a new poll by the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Institute for Public Opinion, a whopping 69 percent of Americans think the former first lady should never, ever run for president. Another 26 percent say she should run, but only some day, as in let's have lunch some day.

Heartening as it is for America, the poll was particularly bad news for Senator Clinton, as it shows a sharp decline in support for her over weaning presidential ambitions from a poll taken just a year and a half ago. Only time will tell if she listens to the will of the people, and I, for one, hope she will, Paul.

BEGALA: This is hilarious. She has now for years said, "I'm not running for president. I don't want to run for president. I want to serve the people of New York." And see, every day, the right wing...

CARLSON: And you believe her? Are you serious?

BEGALA: Tucker, she's a United States senator. She just got elected. She is serving her state and she's doing a hell of a good job. And, by the way, she beat your Republican up there like a bad piece of meat.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: She wants so stand back and let Al Gore and Al Sharpton who, as you know, are your two leading presidential candidates, step in 2004. She's champing at the bit.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I'll tell you what, she's not going to run but I pray she does, because I would pay money to see that debate: Hillary against George W. Bush.

CARLSON: I would love it. I'd love it. Pay per view.

BEGALA: Bring it on, Hillary. We need you. CARLSON: All right. Fresh terror attacks, war with Iraq, how are these and other issues affecting the election, which is now just 23 days away? We'll put John Podesta and Susan Molinari in the CROSSFIRE.

And then, political correctness gone completely amok. Why were "The Sopranos" sidelined from the New York's Columbus Day Parade? And should they have been?

And, he got O.J. off, but how will he do on CROSSFIRE? Johnnie Cochran joins us here in Washington. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. For those at home keeping score, it's just three weeks and a day until Americans head to the polls. The issues are clear: terrorism, Iraq and the economy. What isn't clear is who is going to win.

Joining us to help unravel the mystery, visiting Professor of Law at Georgetown University and former Clinton Chief of Staff, John Podesta, and Republican Strategist and former Congresswoman, Susan Molinari.

SUSAN MOLINARI, FMR. MEMBER OF CONGRESS: Hi, Paul, good to see you again. Hi, tucker.

BEGALA: Let's start.

MOLINARI: I'm not even sitting down yet, for goodness sake.

BEGALA: I know, Susan. But let's start with my favorite topic: it is still the economy, stupid -- not you, stupid. But there was a sign that we put up many years ago.

There is a new ad; it's going to start tomorrow. CROSSFIRE has it tonight. It's run by a group called Main Street USA. It's a liberal group, I'm told. Let me show you a piece of that ad and ask you to comment on how it's going to shape the election.

MOLINARI: OK.

BEGALA: That is one of the best and most frightening ads I've ever seen, because it's just the facts, ma'am, like Joe Friday would say. This is going to be an enormous issue now. Finally, we're going to have an election about the economy, aren't we?

MOLINARI: Well, we were always going to have an election about the economy and who best to lead it and who best to take control and who best to be the spokesperson for either party. This has not changed, even though the president and the Republicans have tried to wage a war on terrorism.

What has changed is that now that Congress and the Democrats in Congress have agreed to go along with the president in allowing him to have a free hand in dealing with the terrorists in Iraq, now we can all focus on the economy. And I think that will benefit the Republican Party.

BEGALA: Well, benefit the Republican Party? With $4 trillion since President Bush took office lost in the stock market, with two million people out of work?

MOLINARI: You know the difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Democrats think people are stupid. Republicans understand people that know why the economy is in the situation that they're in right now. Because this has been very difficult economic times post September 11, when we've had to grapple with something that came our way and the remnants of what was a Clinton economy.

CARLSON: Now John Podesta, it seems to me that what Paul is saying isn't entirely crack pot. I mean the economy is in trouble. You would expect that to hurt an incumbent.

You would also expect there's a long-term trend. Since 1934, the average first midterm for an incumbent president has lost his party 27 congressional seats, it is huge. That's -- nowhere near that is going to happen. The Republicans may actually gain seats, they might lose one or two, but there's not going to be a blowout. Why?

JOHN PODESTA, FMR. WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, I think the Democrats have won seats in the last three elections. That's also an historic anomaly. Redistricting has narrowed the playing field to the number of seats that are now vulnerable. Almost every Congress person now is safe in the seat they're running in, Republican or Democrat.

But I think that -- coming back to Susan's point, I think Susan will be blaming Bill Clinton for the economy eight years from now, I guess. I think the real -- the question that Americans have in front of them is, are the statistics up there? And more, the fact that poverty is going up again, that income is going down.

We've lost two million jobs since George Bush took over. And I think, with all due respect, the thing that people are really saying, I think loud and clear at this point, is the president is not paying attention. His economic team is a disaster. And I think that is why this ad could be particularly...

CARLSON: Well, wait. There is no evidence that people are saying that. There is evidence that people are upset about the economy, but I think the missing link here -- and this is really bad news for Democrats -- is the connection between a slumping economy and the president. There is no poll that shows people blame the president or his party for economic...

PODESTA: They now see the Democrats as doing a better job on the economy than the Republicans. That's a reversal from the beginning of the year.

MOLINARI: As a matter of fact, the polls are showing that people are looking and saying, well, what is the Democratic solution? You put up an ad like that and you talk about this, and yet there has not been one person who has been articulating an economic plan on behalf of the Democrat Party. PODESTA: I think they might start by firing the current economic team that's probably the weakest team that's been in the White House since Jerry Ford invented the win (ph) button. So I think that the Democrats have been for extending unemployment compensation.

MOLINARI: So have the Republicans.

PODESTA: And Republicans have stopped that.

MOLINARI: No, no, no. That is not correct. That is not correct at all. President Bush and the Republicans have endorsed extending unemployment benefits.

PODESTA: They want to raise the minimum wage.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), because you were a brilliant congresswoman, but you're being a little inaccurate, shall we say. The Republican proposal would only unemployment benefits for a very few number of unemployed people. The Democrat proposal would actually extend it for everybody who is unemployed.

And that's the essential difference on that. Instead of just targeting just a few people, the Democrats...

MOLINARI: OK. And where are the Democrats going to get money for that?

BEGALA: Well, I think they should repeal the Bush tax cut to begin with.

(CROSSTALK)

MOLINARI: Well you know, what, Paul? There's not a Democrat that's out there that's even talking about that.

BEGALA: Sure they are.

MOLINARI: So, once again, you guys like to sit back and you like to say the Republicans have led this economic disaster, when, in fact, we have gone over and been in office during a war on terrorism, where the Senate-controlled Democrats have not even produced a budget, nevertheless come up with solutions for reversing an economic down slump.

I think there is a reason why people are not blaming the Republicans in the White House for this.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: John Podesta, I mean, I think we can all agree that the Democrats aren't getting the expected traction out of the economy. I want to show you what they're resorting to instead. This is the now famous ad that ran in Montana against state Senator Mike Taylor run by the Baucus for Senate campaign. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANNOUNCER: State Senator Mike Taylor once ran a beauty salon and hair care school until the Department of Education uncovered Taylor's hair care scam for abusing the student loan program and diverting money to himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: "Once ran a beauty salon." You might add that Bette Midler is his favorite singer. This ad is taking a really clear shot at this guy's sexual orientation and you wouldn't expect that from the Democrats, would you?

PODESTA: It is taking a very clear shot at the fact that he's ripping off the student loan program. It seems to me that that's, in fact, a...

CARLSON: I wonder why, first of all, they say he ran a beauty salon. But I wonder why they have a video of him massaging another man's face? I would think that Democrats constituents, like the transgender community, would be up in arms over this obvious attack on the guy's sexuality.

MOLINARI: You know what I think it proves? I think it proves that no one should have had cameras in the '70s, because everybody looked really goofy.

PODESTA: That evidently was his commercial, so, you know, I don't know what your point is here.

BEGALA: Let me ask you, Susan, about a specific race (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that is not amusing to anybody on either side, and that's in the state of Georgia. Saxby Chambliss is a Republican congressman, he's a well thought of guy. He's a nominee for the Senate. He's running against Max Cleland, who lost both legs and an arm on the field of honor in Vietnam. A highly decorated Army captain.

This is a bit of the ad that Saxby Chambliss is running against Max Cleland, a triple amputee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: America faces terrorists and extremist dictators. Max Cleland runs television ads...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: It links Osama bin Laden visually to Max Cleland. Now we all know I used to do run (ph) campaigns. Seventy-five percent of what we get from TV is the visual image. That image goes straight from Osama bin Laden to Max Cleland and then it says, "Max Cleland says he has the courage to lead, but the record proves that's just misleading." Isn't it outrageous to impugn the courage of a man who lost three limbs in service to this country?

MOLINARI: I think it's accurate to impugn political courage. And when somebody votes against the office of homeland security 11 times, he is, in fact, weakening America's hand to deal with international terrorists.

BEGALA: There is a legitimate argument about whether the Bush version of the homeland security bill or the democratic version of the homeland security bill -- which Democrats were for before Bush was for it -- is the better one. You can have a legitimate debate. There are honorable arguments...

(CROSSTALK)

PODESTA: And Cleland supports that.

BEGALA: And Cleland supports that, but to put him up on a screen with Osama bin Laden and attack his courage, I mean, come on, there ought to be some things that are beyond the pail.

MOLINARI: Well, I think what Saxby was trying to say is that courage to lead in a political standpoint. One can be a war hero and also lack courage in the political arena. Is that inconsequential? Are you not supposed to point that out when someone consistently votes against President Bush and then tries to portray himself not as a liberal but as an extreme (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

PODESTA: If I ever get in trouble, I'm hiring Susan to be my lawyer because it is impossible to defend that outrage, really.

CARLSON: I just want you to weigh in on the tragedy now unfolding in New York. Carl McCall, Democrat, getting slaughtered at 26 points against George Pataki's 43. One of the great national spokesman of your party, Al Sharpton, the other day came out to the "Daily News" and said, "The national Democratic Party is failing Carl McCall miserably," pointing out that prominent national Democrats have not come to this guy's defense.

I want to add my voice to that of Al Sharpton and ask you why.

PODESTA: Well, I think that it's not true. I think that former President Clinton, Senator Clinton, Al Gore's been up there doing events for McCall. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) McCall has been up there trying to raise money for him. And I think that Pataki obviously has benefited from what's going on in the state the past year. I think he got sympathy from the people in the state.

He started into the campaign strongly. But I think this race is not over. McCall is running a good race. They had a good debate yesterday.

And I think it's now become a three-way race, with Golisano really coming on as strong.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Susan Molinari, Republican congresswoman -- they're actually going to come back in just a minute. We have to go to break, though. First, rain, you know, was not the only problem and the New York Columbus Day Parade. "The Sopranos," they're coming up -- or rather a couple of people debating whether the stars of that mega mob hit should have been banned from the Big Apple's big parade. We'll ask these two very same prominent Italian-Americans to discuss why Carmela and Tony and the rest were banned. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. Time to reveal our CROSSFIRE quote of the day. It comes from a well known conservative preacher and frequent CROSSFIRE guest who called the prophet Mohammed a violent man, a man of war and a terrorist. Muslims around the world were understandably outraged. At least five people were killed in the rioting that followed.

Over the weekend, the reverend Jerry Falwell issued what he called a statement of reconciliation, saying he meant no disrespect and blaming what he called a loaded question. He went on to say this of his remark -- our quote of the day -- "That was a mistake and I apologize."

CARLSON: In other words, please don't hurt me. I think he was talking to his old friend Salmon Rushdie and just decided, you know, it's not worth it. I'll take it back.

BEGALA: Kind of like he says, "I meant no disrespect." I called a prophet a terrorist, but other than that...

CARLSON: Probably the prudent move.

Is life more painful for redheads? That story, plus today's headlines, next in a CNN NEWS ALERT. And still ahead, "The Sopranos" out of New York's Columbus Day Parade and into the CROSSFIRE. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Well, the glove didn't fit and he got the jury to acquit. Johnnie Cochran has been a household name ever since. Controversial and charismatic lawyer steps into the CROSSFIRE with more controversial cases ahead.

But first, "The Sopranos" whacked by New York's Columbus Day parade when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University, home of the Fighting Colonials here in Washington, D.C.

You know, it is one of the most popular shows on television, no question about that. Some people question whether "The Sopranos" perpetuates negative stereotypes about Italian-Americans. That alone is enough to get the show's stars uninvited from New York City's Columbus Day parade. Here to put the question in the CROSSFIRE, two of Washington's most prominent Italian-Americans, welcome back, Republican former Congresswoman Susan Molinari and former Clinton's chief of staff in the White House, John Podesta.

CARLSON: John Podesta, this truly is where life and parody meet. I want to read you a quote from New York City Councilman Tony Avella. Here is his take on this: "I know the show is only entertainment, but too many people think that those mobsters represent all Italian- Americans, and letting them march in the parade perpetuates that." So the new oppressed minority group is member of the Mafia. That's basically the bottom line here.

JOHN PODESTA, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, I think you're proving his point there, Tucker. I think that, look, I don't want to...

CARLSON: I hoped to.

(CROSSTALK)

PODESTA: I don't want to sound like Al Sharpton, you know, your favorite political leader attacking "Barbershop," but I think that when you look at this show and you see the stereotypes that come forward on the show, it's not only embarrassing to Italian-Americans, I think it's embarrassing to New Jerseyites. I mean, these people, they have no honor, they have no dignity. I'm not against any show that...

CARLSON: And it's totally inaccurate, you think?

PODESTA: I think it's so over the top and so silly. You have these anxiety-prone, Prozac-popping, cocaine-sniffing guys, and I'm just waiting for Susan to defend the lifestyle. I know she's from Staten Island. I'm from Chicago, so maybe, you know...

SUSAN MOLINARI, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: What are you trying to say? What are you trying to say there, Tony?

Let me just say, because one of the reasons that I think this is so goofy is because there are so many Italians who are out there who represent everything that are not "The Sopranos." I mean, you have Rudy Giuliani, you have Richard Grasso, the head of Nasdaq (sic), the woman who is head of -- CEO of -- the New York Stock Exchange. You have the woman who's head of Saks Fifth Avenue is Italian-American. You have Andrea Bocelli. We have nothing to prove out there as Italian-Americans that there is a Mafia, but there are also so many tremendous leaders in all of these fields that this is nothing.

CARLSON: It is not really run by Italians, though, the Mafia.

BEGALA: It is though -- it's their parade. This is what William Fugazy, who you know, he's the president of the Coalition of Italian- Americans Associations, this is what he said about the parade, why they didn't want the actors from "The Sopranos" -- and I have to say, I love the show. I think the actors are great.

MOLINARI: Great job.

BEGALA: But here's -- but I'm not Italian. My name ends in a vowel, but I'm not Italian. Here is what Fugazy says, though: "Our parade is about heritage and pride. Certainly, "The Sopranos" haven't done much for heritage and pride in our community." Now, this is your guy here.

MOLINARI: Well, but the truth is that the two actors that were invited in by Mayor Bloomberg have. They're exceptional actors, they've done a lot for New York City, they're Italian-American New Yorkers. I think if they had invited Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro, would anybody have said, you know, forget it, we don't want them in our parade because they were in the movie "The Godfather." On the contrary, people would acknowledge them as actors who play a part, but who are also proud Italian-Americans who have contributed to the vitality of New York City.

CARLSON: Well, John Podesta, you said a moment ago that this show was a slur on New Jersey. And I wonder if it hasn't had an effect on the Senate race there. Last year, it was reported that the senator from New Jersey, senior senator, Robert Torricelli, had bragged about having friends in organized crime. A year later, he's forced to drop out of the race. Do you think that he's been the victim of unfair stereotyping? Just because he brags about having friends in the Mafia, all of a sudden he has to get out of the race?

PODESTA: Tucker, I have no idea what you're talking about, but certainly it had nothing -- nothing to do with him.

(CROSSTALK)

PODESTA: It had nothing to do with him dropping out of the race. We all know why he did drop out of the race. And Frank Lautenberg is going to win that race in New Jersey.

CARLSON: But do you think unfair stereotyping was at work here? I mean, here is -- Torricelli is an Italian-American, he's been accused of having ties to the mob?

PODESTA: Susan raised "The Godfather." It is an interesting, I think, counter-example of a popular culture movie that actually portrays people that are interesting, that have dignity, that have character.

MOLINARI: But are members of organized crime.

PODESTA: Take the -- take the difference between, you know, one of the most tragic, poignant scenes when Fredo goes out for his last boat ride on Lake Tahoe with -- and compare that with the scenes in "The Sopranos" where they're whacking the...

MOLINARI: So let me make the argument, however, that "The Godfather," one of my favorite movies of all time, so I'm surely schizophrenic on this, glorifies the Mafia where "The Sopranos" shows them as the thug heads that they are.

BEGALA: Well, let me show you something, Susan. This may be a little...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... a little piece of videotape that I'm going to narrate here. Let's watch this, put it up on a big screen. This is about two years ago. You competed in the funniest celebrity in Washington contest. Audience should know, you kicked my butt and Tucker's butt both. This is a takeoff of the opening of "The Sopranos," and who is that behind that wheel? Not James Gandolfini, Susan Molinari. There you are. And I hope your girls aren't watching when you were smoking there.

MOLINARI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I know. I was only acting, girls.

BEGALA: So you've taken part in this. Did you get any heat from the Italian-American community for playing this part of a mobster in this...

MOLINARI: I don't think up until this moment they knew about this.

BEGALA: I'm sorry that we...

MOLINARI: But thanks for sharing. No, look, it is a great show, it is good fun. These actors are incredible. And again, I'm just so proud to be Italian-American, I don't have to be threatened by the fact that there are, you know, these people who are out there who act like jerks 90 percent of the time on the show, because there are so many other great leaders who are of Italian-American descent. I think everybody has just got to lighten up on this.

PODESTA: I agree with that.

CARLSON: Well, on that note of agreement, thank you both very much. John Podesta, Susan Molinari, thank you for joining us.

"Fireback" is still ahead. More backhanded compliments from Canada.

But first, you know him from O.J., now see him in the CROSSFIRE. Meet Johnnie Cochran next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. He's been a lawyer for almost 40 years, and for just as long he's been in the middle of some of our country's most controversial legal cases. Now, Johnnie Cochran has written a new book about his career. It's called "A Lawyer's Life."

Earlier this afternoon, we caught up with the attorney.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON: Johnnie Cochran, thank you very much for joining us.

JOHNNIE COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: It's my pleasure, Tucker.

CARLSON: Let me start with the obvious question about O.J. Simpson. Is your conscience bothered in any way that you helped convince a jury to acquit a double murderer?

COCHRAN: Well, I think that that fact assumes facts not in evidence. That statement, that question does. No, my conscience is not bothered, because what I did was I represented a client who maintained his innocence. He went through the process. A jury, 12 people from the community there, who were the conscience of the community of Los Angeles, you know, found him not guilty at the end of the trial. And you know, people don't realize this, as Thomas Jefferson said, the anchor of all our liberties are jury trials. And I think you can really appreciate that. And they finally found him not guilty, and they said pretty much en masse how much reasonable doubt did we need?

So, no, we did our job. In fact, you know, if we had a system which everybody surmised of what the results should be, we'd be in pretty much trouble.

CARLSON: We sure would. But it is interesting that you just said that, because you have a fascinating vignette early in your book, in which you describe a similar case many years from before, earlier in your career, when you defended a man accused of murder.

COCHRAN: Yes.

CARLSON: He was acquitted, but you had found out that he had, in fact, done it, just as we now -- it's pretty obvious that O.J. did it. And in the book, you go to a church and you pray and ask forgiveness. Did you ever feel the need to do that after the O.J. trial?

COCHRAN: No, not at all. O.J. Simpson maintains to this day that he's innocent.

CARLSON: I know, but everybody knows he did it.

COCHRAN: I don't know if everybody knows that or not. I mean, a lot of people believe he didn't do it. A lot of people think there really was not enough time, that if you look at the facts of the case -- but we won't retry that case. It's seven years old now. But in that other case, it's very true. I'm not pro murder. I am obviously -- I was assistant DA for L.A. County, and I'm concerned about justice and injustice. And that's what this book is about, is, you know, fighting injustice.

And in that particular case, a person confesses to you in an attorney/client relationship, and then you have to -- and there is no more witnesses, obviously, to call, and you can't reveal this to anybody, and I had to mask who this person is, obviously. And you have to deal with that. It was a horrible situation, really. That was not the Simpson case, too, I might add.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about injustice. O.J. Simpson, seemed to me, got off because he could hired you. He was a rich man. Well, even more importantly in the system, I think, not if you're black or if you're white, but if you're rich. He could hire you, he could hire Barry Sheck, Shapiro, he could hire the dream team of the best lawyers in the whole world.

Is there any doubt in your mind that if he were a poor man with a court-appointed lawyer, that he'd be sitting on death row today?

COCHRAN: He'd be in prison, there is no doubt in my mind. We have a saying we've thought about all of my career, innocent until proven broke. And there is not question about it. That's exactly what would have happened, and that's what happens in our system.

And that doesn't make it right. We should do more. I mean, if you think of the system as being like a three-legged stool, prosecution is strong and you appreciate that. The judiciary is strong and hopefully independent. The defense doesn't get adequate funding. They're overworked, they're underpaid, they don't have the resources. Legal aid, public defender's office. And it's unfair.

Witness the number of people the Innocence Project gets out almost weekly who have been convicted, who are by DNA are determined to be innocent.

BEGALA: And this is Barry Sheck, one of your co-counsel...

COCHRAN: My co-counsel, and my partner in New York, Barry Sheck, and Peter Neufeld, the Innocence Project.

BEGALA: How much pro bono work do you do? I mean, we know that you worked for O.J. Simpson. We know you worked for Puff Daddy, or P. Diddy, or (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

COCHRAN: I do a lot of pro bono work, and probably the greatest case of pro bono work that I've done, you know the case of "Geronimo" Pratt, which is a case that defines me. This is a case that I tried in 1972. He was convicted in '72, and I worked 25 years to get...

BEGALA: Convicted of murder.

COCHRAN: Of murder, first degree, and he was innocent.

BEGALA: Of a cop, right?

COCHRAN: Not a cop, but the lady on the tennis court murder. He was a leader of the Black Panther Party. I worked 25 years without pay to get him -- to prove he was a victim of the FBI's counterintelligence program, which we did, and he was released in 1997. So we do a lot of that, you know.

CARLSON: It seems to me that a much greater injustice, even that, even assuming that what you said is accurate, is the fact that the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman are, as yet, unsolved. The real killers are still out there, and I wonder how much time and money you've put toward finding the real killers?

COCHRAN: Well, I haven't put much time or money toward that, but what I've done is whenever any leads came to us, we referred them to the LAPD. There were, in fact, investigators who had looked at this.

But you know, the problem with that, Tucker, is the LAPD made a decision. They made a rush to judgment, as we characterize it. They don't want to hear about anybody else, ever. And so if you had any other leads, they didn't ever follow up on them. They didn't do a very good job on any of the leads they had anyway, but they didn't do a good job on them, and that's a real problem. And you know, that's their role as the police to investigate.

CARLSON: Let me ask you about a case, quickly, that's being investigated now, and that's the sniper case going on here in Washington and in surrounding counties. If this person were apprehended, the suspect, would you defend him?

COCHRAN: No, I wouldn't. In fact, I tried the case involving Sean "Puffy" Combs in New York last year. And I said at that time that would be the last criminal case that I would handle, and it has been and it continues to be. I've turned all others down. And I'm going to continue to do that. I am not going to try any more criminal cases.

CARLSON: You take digs at others, a number of other people, including Clarence Thomas, and you make an allegation that struck me as sort of unfair. I wonder if you can explain a little bit. You said that here's Clarence Thomas -- you're a defender of affirmative action -- but that it was outrageous that Clarence Thomas benefited from affirmative action in his appointment to the Supreme Court. So the impression that one is left with is you are opposed to affirmative action when it helps people you disagree with politically.

COCHRAN: Oh, no, not at all. No. The point I was trying to make in the book was that I think that for affirmative action, whether you agree with it or not, it's not a perfect solution, but it's not permanent. It recognizes past wrongs, and it tries to remedy them. People talk about it leveling the playing field, with some kind of sunset provision at the end.

I thought that looking at Justice Thomas' background and career from Pinpoint (ph), Georgia where he came from, that he had benefited from affirmative action as he made his way up. And that now, though, he's one of the staunchest opponents to it. So I don't think that you can use the bridge to cross, affirmative action, and then burn it down for everybody coming behind you. I don't think you do that. That's my basic criticism. He's a nice gentleman, but that's my criticism.

CARLSON: Well, also, you mentioned past wrongs, and you're a supporter of slavery -- reparations for slavery. And I just wondered if you could boil down quickly why someone who makes as much as you should get money from the rest of us who don't make nearly as much as you for something that never, you know, that you didn't personally endure?

COCHRAN: Well, you assume the facts that aren't in evidence, that I make so much more money than you do.

(CROSSTALK) COCHRAN: Well, the right and left are agreeing against me. No, I would take nothing from this. And let me make this clear: Myself, my role in this whole thing in representing along with Charles Ogletree (ph), Harvard law professor, the Reparations Coordinating Committee, we are pro bono on this thing. You talked about pro bono work, this is pro bono.

What I think we need to do and what we try to do in this whole thing is reinitiate a conversation that began 137, 130 years ago with ancestors past. I don't think this country has ever come to grips with one of the greatest wrongs ever done to humanity. The government sanctioned slavery, and it was wrong.

Tucker, you didn't own any slaves, but you benefited mightily from the free labor source from all the slaves who went before. And what I'm saying in this society today...

CARLSON: No, I didn't.

COCHRAN: Yes, you did. You benefited. You had unearned privilege. They had unearned suffering, and you had unearned privilege by virtue of free labor source. You and your relatives and people before you.

But now, I think what we have to do is that there are people who suffered mightily and they continue to, because they're bottom stuck in this society. I'm saying it applies to them. Not any some -- I'm looking for some check for 40 acres and a new SUV for every African- American, that's not what I'm looking for.

What I think we need to do is do something from an educational recommends, or maybe some economic recommends, where people who have really been held back by virtue of the fact they were slaves, second class citizenships, whatever, the second class citizens, whatever they are today. And that's really what it is.

So I think that this would be administered by some entity that would be fair. I would get nothing out of this. And I don't want anything. People similarly situated with me, so I think there is a lot of misunderstanding.

I think if this lawsuit is ever filed, you'll be surprised at the approach that we would take, to really have a discussion about it. You know, it's not like there is this pink elephant in the middle of the room and we're not going talk about race in America or slavery having existed in America. And I think we need to do that. I real do.

BEGALA: Johnnie Cochran, "A Lawyer's Life," thank you very much for coming to CROSSFIRE.

COCHRAN: Good to be with you. My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you.

CARLSON: All right. When we come back, regime change in Canada. Many think it's a good idea. One viewer sounds off in "Fireback" when CROSSFIRE continues.

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CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for our "Fireback" segment. As usual, our Canadian viewers riled up again. But first, we go to Steven Scarlata of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, who writes: "It's not 'The Sopranos' in isolation that's the problem, it's the virtual industry that has evolved from the stereotyping of Italian- Americans. For every one Tony Soprano, there are a dozen Donnie Brascos and Mickey Blue-Eyes. Give us a break, Hollywood." He might have added, or we'll break your legs.

BEGALA: How many about that my mother whole family's is Irish? There is a new movie coming out, "Gangs of New York," I think it's about like the Irish Mafia in New York. Do I get the...

CARLSON: See, you're oppressed too, Paul. You're oppressed.

BEGALA: OK, Roz Singer, apparently, not oppressed from Princeton, New Jersey writes in: "Paul, don't you think that George Bush traveling around for 14 days raising funds and campaigning for Republican candidates is like Nero fiddling as Rome burns?" Well, Roz, yes.

CARLSON: Why does Roz capitalize fiddling? Makes me nervous.

BEGALA: Nero Fiddling was actually his last name. Very few people know that. He was Nero Fiddling.

CARLSON: Ann Owens from Alberta, Canada writes in: "I was delighted to hear you refer to Canada as a foreign country" -- accurately, I believe. "We like our country and our system of government and have no desire to become a republic. Tucker's inability to pronounce our prime minister's name" -- that would be Jean Chretien -- "would not constitute a valid reason for regime change." On the other hand, Ann, it might. You never know. I guess we'll make that decision, won't we?

BEGALA: A lovely country filled with lovely people. I don't know why you're always harping...

CARLSON: I love Canada. I just feel like they're taking up vital space that could be used for satellite parking for the state of New York.

BEGALA: Here comes more e-mail. Jim McDermott from Houston, Texas, my home town says: "My father taught me politics when I was growing up in the '50s. He taught me that he could disagree with others, but was always respectful of their opinions. "CROSSFIRE" reflects those same values. Refreshing and challenging debate, the way politics should be." We have got to get a lot nastier. We have got to be more rude, Tucker.

CARLSON: Really? I like that part about values. That's what CROSSFIRE is about in the end, isn't it, Paul? Values. BEGALA: It's about family values. We're going to hug and sing kumbayah just after the show. But what is your question or comment, sir? Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think that the TV series "The Sopranos" is any more representative of Italian culture than serving spaghetti and dago red three meals a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year is representative of Italian cuisine.

CARLSON: But "The Sopranos" is less fattening, I think you'll agree. The good thing about "The Sopranos" is I don't think that it purports to be a representation of Italian culture. It's, in fact, fiction. It is not real.

BEGALA: Right. It is a terrific show. And people ought to lighten up. Yes, ma'am. What's your question or comment?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, my name is Dorothy Casseteri (ph). I'm a senior here at GW, and I'm from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Being an Italian-American, I have a little bit of a comment about the controversy involving "The Sopranos." Watching the episode a few weeks ago that where they were talking about Columbus Day, and while they may have connected it with the violence, while I was watching it, I realized that many non-Italian friends of mine and even some Italian friends of mine had no idea before that episode that Columbus Day is an Italian holiday. And through that episode that's how they realized it.

CARLSON: See, so it's not just entertainment, it's education.

BEGALA: Thanks to "The Sopranos," thank you for your question, Dorothy.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night, Tuesday night, for yet another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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