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CNN Crossfire

Town Meeting on D.C. Sniper

Aired October 16, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: Sniper on the loose, a CROSSFIRE town meeting. The Washington area comes together to deal with an apparent madman who is getting away with murder. Tonight's focus: the investigation. What do we know? What more can be done? Why is it taking police so long to crack the case?
The sniper, who is this shooter, and what's driving this person to kill?

Live from the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening. Hit and run killer armed with a high-powered rifle terrorizes the Washington area. Over the next hour we'll discuss the two-week rampage that has killed nine people and wounded two others.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Most nights, as you know, CROSSFIRE tackles an issue from the left and the right. But a cold-blooded killer is not exactly a left-right issue, so tonight we'll analyze the issue from several different perspectives. We'll talk about the investigation, the killer, the community.

CARLSON: We'll be joined by homicide investigators, criminologists and government officials, as well as business and community leaders, members of the Guardian Angels, religious leaders, and a witness to one of the shootings.

BEGALA: But before we hear from our guests or from our audience, let's begin with an update on the investigation. CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us from Montgomery County, Maryland, where the investigation is centered -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paul and Tucker, police are giving us lots more information now after this latest shooting, because they are getting a lot more. They had a lot of witnesses to the shooting Monday night. But they are telling us today, unfortunately, that information is not going to gel together into a composite because though they had these very good witnesses, apparently the witnesses couldn't agree exactly on what they saw, on any defining characteristics of this individual.

They could only agree it was a man. And witnesses at the scene on Monday and then also at one other scene are still saying that they believe it was an olive skinned man or darker skinned man. One witness says that he believes the weapon that the killer was holding -- they say they saw the killer actually shouldering a gun -- was an AK-74, but police say don't read too much into that. This person could be wrong and the killer could be switching guns, just as the killer could very well be switching vehicles.

Now when it comes to a composite, we thought we might get one from the Friday shooting in Manassas, Virginia, some 50 miles south of D.C. But police say that the witnesses now in that shooting took a look at the composite graphics that were put out yesterday of those two different white vans and they said, well, that gels pretty well with what I recall, so you don't need to put together another composite.

Again, this killer is getting bolder and bolder. We're now hearing that he shot his latest victim, the one in Falls Church, Virginia, from just some 30 yards away. Back to you.

BEGALA: Kathleen Koch, thank you for that update from Montgomery County, Maryland.

In a moment, we're going to hear from our studio audience, a broad array of community leaders and citizens in the nation's capital area. But joining us first with their insights on the investigation, former United States -- Assistant United States Attorney, David Schertler, who also served as chief of the homicide section in the U.S. attorney's office here in Washington, and former D.C. homicide Detective, J.T. McCann.

CARLSON: We have a composite sketches of two vehicles that the killer possibly drove. But as Kathleen Koch just said, we don't have a composite photograph. Seems to me that kind of information would be helpful. Why don't we have it?

J.T. MCCANN, FMR. D.C. HOMICIDE DETECITVE: Well, I guess the big concern is the reliability of those witnesses. Law enforcement is not going to put out a composite unless they are sure it at least looks like the suspect. And, in a case like this, they have so many witnesses, at least in the latest shooting, that it's very hard to figure out who is exactly right with their description.

BEGALA: Well, David, let me ask you this. You used to prosecute these homicide cases. You hear that a lot, and yet you go in a courtroom and lawyers like you, prosecutors put these eyewitnesses on and they seem so authoritative. How reliable are they in fact?

DAVID SCHERTLER, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, it really depends on the circumstances of the -- surrounding the eyewitness identification itself. If you had the good opportunity to view the suspect, if the lighting was good, if there was enough time for you to see the suspect, you can argue that the eyewitness identification is reliable and the jury can rely upon it.

I think what Joe is talking about is a situation where authorities are concerned that nobody got a real good look at the suspect. And what they are getting are differing descriptions. And with that, there's no way that they can put together a composite that they would feel confident in. And I think they are trying take this in measured steps, steps that will lead to the capture of the person who is doing it and a successful prosecution as well.

CARLSON: OK. Speaking of witnesses, a member of our audience tonight, Joy Zucker, was at the scene of the last shooting moments after it took place. Joy, what did you see?

JOY ZUCKER, SHOOTING WITNESS: Well, actually, I drove up into that Home Depot parking lot, it turns out, only about four minutes after the shooting. And I had no immediate indication that there was a crime scene involved. But as soon as I got out of my car, I actually saw a police car that was parked in one of the aisles and walked over through the cars, in fact, to see that there was a body on the ground that was already covered.

I immediately then looked at the actual front of the Home Depot store and saw the 25 or 30 or so eyewitnesses and employees who were standing there just staring at that scene. And it was a -- it was a telling and startling moment to realize that this was, you know, the scene of something. I had no idea what yet.

I walked up to some of them and asked them what happened? How long ago did this happen? And they said it had just taken place just before I drove in.

Most of those people were just stunned and absolutely frozen in silence. There was no talking amongst those people. They were just staring at that scene. It was just that frightening.

And I'm a television producer. I've been in the business for 20 years. You come on scenes well after the fact and you are covering this. This was just amazing to be here and in that role.

I did try to help, in the sense that anybody who had any information tried to pull them aside and otherwise lead police to those people. Police did a phenomenal job isolating those witnesses and talking to them.

BEGALA: And, Joy, in those first moments you were there, the police, were they there yet? Had they cornered off the area? Everybody else was stunned, but clearly the killer was escaping.

ZUCKER: Within that first minute and a half that I was there, there were at least three or four additional Fairfax county police officers that had arrived. And within just minutes after that, you saw their jurisdiction on the scene.

You actually saw at least another half a dozen officers up and down both Route 50 and Route 7. They were cornering off that entire area on the streets, the exits from the actual shopping center. And, otherwise, they were very quick to start roping off the actual area of the parking lot around the victim and maintain all the evidence that was there.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. McCann, how, under those circumstances, with police organizations roping off all the streets, do you think the killer got away? J. MCCANN: I think everybody is asking that question, how did he get away? I don't know how he got away. But I'll tell you this. I think that what's going to happen is we may be in this for the long hall. And in the very beginning, and up until now, the police are getting a lot of support from the public.

And as this thing goes on and on, the public -- and you may start to see it now - are going to start to question the police. Why did the guy get away when you - and that's the time when you really have to hang in there with the police.

This thing could go on for a long time. In the shotgun stalker case here in D.C., it went on for almost two months.

BEGALA: And that's a similar case. You were the lead investigator on that, right?

J. MCCANN: Yes, and that was a very similar case to this. And if you lose the public now, if you start questioning, are the police doing this or they're not doing this - and it's understandable. There's a level of frustration not only among the public, but also among the police.

The police are going to need the public throughout this whole investigation. If it takes two months, you have just got to be prepared to be in this thing for the long haul.

BEGALA: Let me go to another member of the public. This gentlemen in our audience has some questions for you. Yes, sir, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. My question is, do you think it's a good idea to continually encourage average, everyday citizens to go out and partake in their everyday lives when we don't have the same protections that law enforcement and politicians have?

CARLSON: Do you think that's a good idea?

SCHERTLER: That's a tough question. I think people are going to make that decision on their own. I think people have to conduct their daily lives. You can't just stop because of what's going on.

And, at the same time, I think that everybody needs to use a certain amount of caution in how they proceed about their daily activities. I think that's the common sense approach. It's somewhere in the middle.

BEGALA: Yes, sir, what's your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a question. I wonder why they shut down the roads for an hour or two to three hours and presumably the sniper leaves rather promptly.

BEGALA: Joe, you've done these investigations for years?

J. MCCANN: In a murder case, and especially in a case like this, I don't mean to sound callous, but the police are going to do whatever they got to do to catch this guy. And if you have to suffer some inconveniences, like being stuck in traffic and all of that, I'm sorry for that and I'm sure the police department is sorry for that. But the point is that there are families out there that are going to live with this for the rest of their lives. And so if we have to take those kinds of precautions and do those kind of things and inconvenience people, we apologize for it, but it's something that has to be done.

CARLSON: But I think the question is more on the lines of was it done in the most effective way. People will accept lots of inconvenience. But was it done well?

J. MCCANN: Again, but here comes the question of criticism: did they do the right thing? These cases happen few and far between. The last one we had, the shotgun stalker we talked about, was 10 years ago. So there's not a blueprint for how do we do these things.

We're all working in this thing together. And so maybe they weren't as effective as they could have been, maybe they were. You have to be in that mix to know for sure if they did everything they could do.

BEGALA: I want to go to -- Pastor Tom Schmid is with us here. You were caught in one of those traffic jams, weren't you?

REV. TOM SCHMID, PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER: Oh yes. We were on our way back from Baltimore, where we had had dinner that evening. And as we were on 495, the beltway, about to cross into Virginia, and my wife looked across the bridge and we could see 25 or 30 police cars, sirens, all of the oncoming traffic had been stopped.

There was just a massive tie up. And when we passed -- as we were passing by, she said, oh, clearly something has happened. And so she called our daughter in Baltimore on her cell phone to ask her to turn on the television. She already had it on.

And it happened at the Home Depot, which was about a mile from our home, where we were going. And then we got into our own roadblock on Interstate 66, about two miles from home.

BEGALA: But, David, there's probably no other alternative for the police is there? :

SCHERTLER: There's not. And I actually think that the response plan that they put in place -- and I think there's coordination among all the jurisdictions involved, as well as the federal agencies -- in terms of these dragnets. But, you know, again, it's kind of a common sense thing. The killer is going to have a certain amount of lead time before the police actually respond to the scene, figure out what's happened and are able to radio out the dragnet message.

And so what they going to try to do is cut off the major arteries at some points, extend it from the scene of the crime, to see if they can find the killer. And that's a laborious process. You have to go through each car. You are not sure what kind of car the killer would be in. So your stopping each individual car, inspecting it, questioning. And then the problem, no matter how good the police have a plan in place, that area is -- there are some major arteries, but there also a lot of small side streets. And if the killer is familiar with the area, he can escape through side streets that there is no conceivable way that the police could try to block.

CARLSON: We're going to take a quick break. When we return, the media, are they hurting or helping the investigation? The shooter, who is he, and can he be stopped? Also, why this case triggers both fear and fascination. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to the CROSSFIRE town meeting.

Our topic: the Washington area sniper killings. When the first of nine victims was gunned down two weeks ago, the press descended and has not let up since. Are reporters hurting or are they helping the investigation?

Joining us now, "Washington Post" media critic, Howard Kurtz, who is also the host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES." Still with us, former U.S. Assistant Attorney David Schertler and former D.C. homicide detective, J.T. McCann.

BEGALA: Now let me begin with this gentleman's question. I know you have a question about the media. And we've got an ace media reporter here. What's your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. My name is Josh from Philadelphia. With such a high media presence, has the sniper gained too much information about the investigation, and if so, will that allow him to change his style and his MO?

HOWARD KURTZ, RELIABLE SOURCES: I don't buy the notion that all of this media attention - and it has reached a 24-hour wall to wall saturation pitch that we're all familiar with - is somehow hurting the investigation or helping the sniper. There's so much we don't know about the sniper and his motivations.

So I don't think if we just turned out the lights here and all the reporters went home that somehow the killings would stop. I do think where the media have gone into their famous (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mode is in - because there's a lot of air time to fill, it's a compelling story, it's a life and death story, and yet we have very few facts. And so you get lots of experts coming on to talk about how it's a video game addict, it's a Vietnam veteran, they are young, they are short, there are two people, there's one person. And I think that viewers sense that we're filling a lot of air time without a lot of information here.

BEGALA: Well, Joe, let me ask you about a piece of information that did come out, actually two. The whole public, and presumably the murderer, knows that there's a busted tail light on this van, or there was at least until we told him to fix it. And that we got part of the license plate. Why did the cops let that information out to the media.

J. MCCANN: You know, I've heard that argument before with -- they had -- they were looking for him that night, that moment, right after the shooting. That was the best time to put out as much information as they could about that car. And putting that information -- they had a judgment.

If we don't put it out, maybe he'll be - but if we put it out right now, we'll stop him right now. Maybe we'll catch him right now, and maybe we'll prevent another one from happening.

BEGALA: OK. We have another question from our audience. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With national attention focused on the sniper, do you think the media is putting additional fear on the public?

CARLSON: What about that, Mr. Schertler? I know that a number of law enforcement officials in this area have suggested that. Do you think it's true?

SCHERTLER: No, I don't. There's obviously going to be fear created by what's going on. I think that the public has a right to know what's going on. And the public can see from the press accounts of what's happened, kind of the extent of the potential danger to people. But frankly, I agree with Howard on this and with Joe. I think you have to provide this information to the public.

The best possibility of solving this case is a tip from somebody who knows this killer or who has a suspicion about this killer. The only way we're going to get that is if we provide the public with the information that law enforcement has about who this might be.

BEGALA: Well, Howard Kurtz, when I was in the government, reporters often accused us of using the press. Government does, of course, to get out favorable stories. But here is one where maybe the government is using you to catch a criminal.

KURTZ: And that's exactly how we should be used. And any smart police chief or law enforcement official needs to be conscious - I mean you've got all of these journalists and camera crews camped out in Rockville, in Virginia. Why not use them to try to put information out?

But I was really struck to see a "Newsweek" poll this week in which people around the country, not just in the Washington-Maryland- Virginia area, were more concerned now about a sniper in their area. So clearly the saturation coverage is having an effect in terms of people's perceptions, not just the very real fears that people here naturally feel.

CARLSON: We're almost out of time. But I think a lot of people are wondering to what extent does the press agonize over the information it has and over whether it should release that information. At the "Washington Post" is there a lot of hand wringing about should we put this in print or not?

KURTZ: Nobody who lives in this community wants in any way to be responsible for putting out any details from this investigation that's going to jeopardize anybody's life or jeopardize this investigation. At the same time, we have to strike a balance between putting information out and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) law enforcement.

If the police chief got on the phone and asked me or any other journalist, don't publish that, because that's going to hurt the investigation, it's going to help the sniper, I bet you that we would hold it back.

BEGALA: That's a good point. Let me thank former Assistant U.S. Attorney, David Schertler, Howard Kurtz, of the "Washington Post," who is going to hang around for the rest of the show as well, and Joe McCann, former Chief of the D.C. Homicide Section, both with very informative discussion.

Coming up next, profiling the beltway sniper. How it's done and how it may help to catch a killer. And, the national bullet tracking systems. Is it the technology law enforcement needs, and, if so, will politicians support it? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to our town hall meeting. Two weeks and still no end to a sniper's rampage here in the nation's capital. What do police know about the Washington area killer?

Well, joining us to talk about the process of profiling killers, CNN Security Analyst Kelly McCann and CNN Criminologist Casey Jordan. Thank you both for joining us.

CARLSON: Mr. McCann, one thing we do know about this killer is that he's firing these kind of bullets, .223, little tiny bullets (UNINTELLIGIBLE) gun powder behind them. What information can you draw from that fact, and what else do we know about this guy based on what he's done?

K. MCCANN: If you look at it from a purely mechanical standpoint, if you take this bullet and you look at the current technology behind the different barrels that are available in that weapon, the number of twists per inch, the -- changing this bullet, this could be a 55 grain bullet, it could be a 64 grain bullet. There's many, many different kinds of pressures that can be built up behind it the way it's loaded, even though you can buy it off the shelf. He must know the good combination, or the bullet would be totally unstable as it leaves the muzzle and would greatly reduce the accuracy.

And this is a guy that has made shots from 30 yards to 150 yards. And the way that weapons work, you basically have to have the point of impact to the point of aim by adjusting the sites. Which means, if I do that mechanical process at 200 yards, I can be off by 10 inches at 50 yards.

So he obviously knows how to hold the weapon to compensate or can adjust based on where he thinks he's going to have to shoot.

CARLSON: So he's an expert is what you're saying?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: I wouldn't say expert. A hobbyist could go on the Internet and drag down enough of this information to make those kind of adjustments. But he is a - not a neophyte.

BEGALA: We have a question from our audience, too. I think Casey Jordan can get inside this guy's head. This guy wants to ask you about that. Go ahead, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a student from GW and I've noticed that the patterns of the killings have occurred either in early morning or early evening. I was wondering do you believe that the sniper is a family man who goes home after work and possibly watches this very show?

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: That's absolutely occurred to me. Especially because we have two full weekends of no shootings. And that seems significant, especially because we had hoped to get through this Monday. We were all very hopeful that we got through a Monday without an incident. And we ended up being wrong.

But you're right, it's almost rush hour in the morning and then rush hour in the evening. It's like family man hours. People are looking at this very closely, because it's entirely possible that he does have a family, he does have maybe a wife, children on weekends, lives with his parents. Who even knows. But it could be that he has other obligations that are keeping him within that timeframe.

BEGALA: Casey, let me ask you this. Is this somebody - you're guessing, of course - but is this somebody who is like stone crazy like David Berkowitz, who thought a dog was talking to him and ordering him to kill, the Son of Sam, or more like a Timothy McVeigh, who committed mass murder, wasn't insane at all. Just evil.

JORDAN: I don't see much to support a psychotic tendency. Definitely a social, maybe even sociopathic. But it's so methodical, so organized, he could be sitting next to you on a bus and you wouldn't even know it.

CARLSON: Now do you - Kelly McCann, as a former member of the armed services, do you get the sense from the way this man has behaved that he has a military background?

K. MCCANN: I don't think I would stretch it to a military background, but discipline, yes. I mean if any of you sitting out here can think about it, if you had to step from a car in a public area exposed, shoulder a weapon that clearly doesn't fit in that area, make a quick shot, get back in the car and drive away without hitting anything, jumping a curb, bumping into somebody in his haste, that's pretty disciplined. Now whether that's instilled by having done a stint in the U.S. armed forces or not, can't say. But it clearly goes beyond kind of erratic behavior that would just be snatch a gun, jump out of a car, make a shot, maybe it hits, maybe it doesn't, and get out of here. So that leads to discipline.

BEGALA: Let me ask another audience member to ask another question. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Do you feel that a copycat crime will emerge as a result of the information overload from the media?

BEGALA: Casey, what do you think?

JORDAN: In terms of your question, I guess you are asking if another type of perpetrator could respond by the media attention. The possibility always exists. But what we tend to see, in studying these cases in the past, copycat crimes are far more often caused by movies, that sort of media. Not media coverage of these events, but actual movies that might feature a crime.

We tend to see people imitating art, but not so much imitating life. The possibility always exists, but I really don't think you're going to see that, because this one has really touched people at the core.

CARLSON: Well let me ask Howard Kurtz from the "Washington Post" who is still here, your own newspaper this past weekend ran a story that suggested that media coverage was egging this guy on. Have in the newsroom you heard people say, gee, I hope copycats don't read my story and do it what this man is doing?

KURTZ: I think we always have that feeling, Tucker. And, you know, we also hope there's a limited supply of sufficiently violent and crazy people out there that might be inspired to do this sort of thing. But, at the same time, you are the biggest newspaper in the community. People are understandably worried. They want information, they want to know what's happening in their schools and how people are changing their routines.

I mean we all - you know this ideal world where we sort of tamp down the media coverage so that we don't give anybody ideas, it simply doesn't exist. There's no way to make it exist in the 24-hour cable Internet universe.

BEGALA: Well, Kelly, let me ask you to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to educate the rest of us and inspire us. How can we outsmart this guy? How can we protect ourselves in our daily lives?

K. MCCANN: The hardest thing to do is to try to identify or isolate or control one person in a sea of fish. So I mean, the bottom line, things you can do that you know about the mechanics of a weapon is that if you interrupt the line of sight, then the shot can't be made. So if you need to go shopping, and you make a circuit around the parking lot and you look for things consistent with what we know, you can make a judgment of whether you want to park in that parking lot and go to that shopping place or not.

If you choose to, when you get out - and what are you looking for, is people sitting alone, two men sitting alone, people that don't have a reason to be doing what they appear to be doing, which is nothing. Then when you move to the shopping place, mask yourself. You don't have to do the serpentine. We've all had that joke out recently, you know, about running the serpentine. You don't have to do that.

But if you put obstructions between you and the sniper's line or potential line of fire, obviously he can't shoot through it. When you get inside you do your shopping. When you come out, before you leave the recess of the building, look not at your car, but at the vantage points that can look at your car.

That's kind of a premise of counter-sniping, because it's not important that he sees the car or you at the door. He needs to see you at the car, if that's where you would be going. So you make that determination on the same things. Do I see a car that's suspicious?

And don't get harmed by the van. Look for the pattern of behavior, because that's going to give you the answer.

BEGALA: John Ayala is here as well. He is with the Guardian Angels. Let me ask John if he wants to tell us what his organization has been trying to do to protect people.

JOHN AYALA, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Yes, how are you doing?

BEGALA: Good, John.

AYALA: What we are doing, because the sniper has shot and killed four people at gas stations throughout the D.C. metro area, we decided to put a few members, about two dozen Guardian Angels, at several different gas pumps throughout Virginia, Montgomery County, and PG County and pumping gas.

This way, the citizens feel a lot safer because what was happening, the citizens were scared to pull up to the pumps, and pump their own gas. I mean, they feared for their lives, especially after looking at the news and seeing someone getting shot vacuuming the car, pumping the gas. So we felt we would go out there ourselves, put our own selves in the line of fire, just to make the citizens feel safe.

BEGALA: OK. Casey Jordan, do you think that Guardian Angels are putting themselves at risk? Does the sniper seem like the sort of person who would shoot someone trying to protect the public.

JORDAN: I wish I had an answer to that. I really have to use the kind of pat answer that this guy is so far off the charts in terms of having nothing -- there are no previous cases we can really compare this to.

I can't tell you whether that would provoke him or just place the crime elsewhere. We really don't know what's making him tick, but I do believe that the more we step up police activity -- and I commend it, I think it's tremendous to see the activity we've had since Monday night -- but I don't think for one minute this guy will pack up and go, Oh well, they're out there, I had better -- he may cool off, he may take time off, but I think it's far more likely they are going to displace it to a whole new geographic arena.

BEGALA: Casey, how about the rest of us, though? Should we be too scared to pump our own gas? I mean, I admire what John and his group is doing, but do -- I think it's overreacting, candidly, to not want to pump your own gasoline.

JORDAN: Well, philosophically, I truly believe that when you start altering your lifestyle tremendously, beyond taking ordinary precautions to keep yourself safe, then the criminals have won, and we are living in a prison called our own society, and I for one won't change my routine one bit.

BEGALA: That's the spirit.

CARLSON: God love you. Unfortunately, we are out of time. Thank you both very much.

Up next -- CNN's Connie Chung will give us a look at the latest developments on the sniper story, and later, how community leaders are dealing with the killer's other weapon, which, of course, is fear. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington, D.C.

With no end in sight to a sniper's killing spree in the Washington, D.C. area, what are community leaders doing to help people carry on with their daily lives?

Joining us to talk about that, D.C. delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton and Virginia senator George Allen.

BEGALA: Thank you both for joining us. At times like this, we're not Republicans and Democrats, but you are our community leaders, and so let me ask you -- how are you telling your constituents -- I'm one of yours, Senator Allen -- how to balance prudent precautions with paralyzing fear?

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: Well, I think that they all recognize that law enforcement is trying do the best job they can, whether they are the local, whether state, also working with those in Maryland and in the District.

I tell them to be on the lookout. People are stressed out. Just filling up with gas is a worry. I want to commend -- on behalf of my wife, the Guardian Angels and others who are helping out those who are worried about all of those -- those matters about their children, and everything else, and also to let them know that most likely someone in Virginia or Maryland or D.C. is actually a neighbor of this killer, or knows him, or works with him. And what we do know is that he does drive around in this white van, whether it's the Astrovan or a Ford, and if they see anything unusual or worrisome to them, let the police know, but we have to go about our lives, just be a little bit more alert and precautionary.

CARLSON: But it strikes me that what our community is missing is a Rudy Giuliani figure who stands up and says, Yes, this is scary, but we must go on with our daily lives -- don't give in to fear.

ALLEN: But it is tough when you don't know who the individual is. You don't know who the enemy is. In the al Qaeda attacks in New York City, you know who exactly did it. In fact, those who did it were dead. They died in it. This one, there is so much uncertainty, there is so much speculation. There is no motive that people can figure out. It's much different than any other situation.

DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: After the Twin Towers, people thought that, at least for the moment, it was over. We have had 13 days, 11 killings, two people wounded, and so there's the sense of an ongoing saga. There are three different jurisdictions involved here. There's no one person who can take hold of Maryland, Virginia, and the District of Columbia. What each of us can do, and Senator Allen and I, for example, had a briefing today by important federal officials who are involved in this matter, is to take from that the assurances we had that real resources were being used.

I also -- I try to use my own personal experiences with my own constituents. For example, I go on a -- I race walk, and on Sunday I was race walking early, along the Mall. And, of course, I'm in the District, and I try to assure my residents that terrible as it may seem, he seems to prefer open spaces, and at least for the moment he has not been in the District because there are no fast getaways from the District of Columbia, so if he would try to get out of here...

CARLSON: So you are making traffic work for you.

BEGALA: Traffic is good, is what you're saying.

NORTON: However on the morning, on Sunday morning, when I'm out, and I found myself in the middle of the Mall, I say to my folks, you know, as unlikely as it is that this man is going to be here, the fact is I'm a perfect shot today, and you might be able to get out of the District. So I say to them, yes, think about where you are, but please don't stop doing what you've been doing. Don't bring our economy down with you. Don't give him that pleasure.

BEGALA: Right. I want to turn to a very special guest we have got tonight, Ms. Alexis Archer is the guidance counselor at Benjamin Tasker Middle School where a 13-year-old boy was, in fact, shot -- and what are you telling your students there, Ms. Archer?

ALEXIS ARCHER, GUIDANCE COUNSELOR, BENJAMIN TASKER MIDDLE SCHOOL: For the most part, we're just, you know, encouraging them to continue business as usual. Most of the children are pretty much concerned about their classmate, how is he doing? When is he coming back? Another concern has been, when are they going to catch this guy, and is he going to return, since the child wasn't murdered. So that's been an issue that the children have been dealing with. But for the most part, we just -- have been encouraging them to talk, you know. It's OK to talk about it. We've encouraged them to talk to their parents at home, and just to continue doing what they are doing.

BEGALA: And they are hanging in there pretty good. There is one -- the question, though, are they more scared because you are canceling -- all the schools in this area are canceling extracurriculars, outdoor activities, but yet we're sending them on those buses, and they're walking to school as well.

ARCHER: Right. I think one of the biggest concerns is for the walkers, some of the children have expressed, Oh, my gosh, I'm looking over my shoulder. When is this going to end? But I think most of the children feel pretty safe at school, and they've been doing very well. I'm really pleased with how they -- how courageous they've been.

BEGALA: We have a question from the audience -- yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Brandon DeFrank (ph) from the University of Maryland, and my question is, with so many jurisdictions involved across state lines and county lines, how can we be assured that all of these police departments are working together effectively?

CARLSON: Senator Allen, isn't a conflict inevitable?

ALLEN: No, no. A conflict is not inevitable, Tucker, when everyone has the same goal and the same mission. And in fact, they are working very well together, whether it is Montgomery County, or Prince George's County, whether it is the District, whether it is Spotsylvania County, Fairfax County, Prince William, Manassas. You also have the FBI -- as Eleanor mentioned, the FBI was briefing us. All of the federal resources from the ATF, FBI, Secret Service, Marshal's Service, everything they need is being accorded to them, as far as the forensic evidence and an analysis of the ballistics on the bullets, and so they are all working very well together. They all have the same goal.

What evidence we find in Virginia is shared, obviously, with those who are in Maryland or the District, so they are all working very well together, and in a roundabout way, the attacks of 9/11 has brought this community together in that it wasn't just the Twin Towers, it was the Pentagon, and the response there was from all the jurisdictions, and in fact, we have worked together as a delegation across party lines to make sure all emergency services, police and fire, on -- CAPWIN (ph) is what we call it -- have a communication system that works well together. So, in fact, from 9/11, that's been much improved in that technology and communications and working relationships.

BEGALA: Right. Senator Allen, we're going to take a quick break. Congresswoman Norton, hang on just a second.

When we return, we are going to be joined by a representative from Maryland so that Virginia, Maryland, and the District will all be represented here on our stage. We will have more discussion with these political leaders, but also with community leaders here in our audience, asking them how they are helping people cope with the fear of a serial killer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to a CROSSFIRE town hall meeting. We're talking about how to cope with the sniper's -- his other weapon, fear.

Here with us -- Virginia senator, George Allen, Maryland congresswoman Connie Morella, and D.C. delegate, Eleanor Holmes Norton. Thank all of you for staying with us.

CARLSON: I'd like to go to a member of our audience. Steve Robbins is here, from Montgomery County Chamber of Commerce. Mr. Robbins, tell us how, briefly if you would, this has affected the economy in Montgomery County?

STEVE ROBBINS, MARYLAND BUSINESS LEADER: I think in Montgomery County, as in any other jurisdiction that is affected by this whole situation, the businesses really have put the community ahead of their own self interest. We've all banded together. We've dealt with the reward fund. We've dealt with the victims' relief fund, trying to put, really, the incident ahead of business.

Certainly, there are businesses that are affected by what's going on out there. People are frightened. Businesses are concerned. But right now I think the key issue is to help law enforcement, to be cooperative, really to put you know, the community's interest, to band together, whether it's religious groups, community interests, business interests, bring everyone together to try to help and get this thing resolved.

CARLSON: Congresswoman Morella, do you see this tragedy as having a lasting effect on suburban Maryland and Montgomery County?

MORELLA: Well, 9/11, of course, change the world. And then when this happened right in our own neighborhood, I think it has placed a power and sobreity over the whole neighborhood. But, I do want to pick up on what Steve said. I'm really very proud of the citizenry. The Chamber of Commerce has come together to help the victims fund, to help in any way they can.

And our national resources are being employed also. The -- everything that is need from the federal government is being given toward finding that perpetrator and the FBI, the ATF, the attorney general, the helicopter, the profiling, the computer technology is all being done. So we know that. So we are just all trying to be very alert, to point out any suggestions we may have of any problems to the hot line and going about our business.

BEGALA: Congresswoman Morella, we're going to go to a quick break right now. But still to come: more reaction from this high- powered panel on the sniper who kills and then runs. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BEGALA: Welcome back to our CROSSFIRE town hall meeting. We were talking about a sniper on the loose.

And we are joined in our audience by Caleb Shreve. Caleb is the spokesman for Americans for Gun Safety -- Caleb.

CALEB SHREVE, AMERICANS FOR GUN SAFETY: Yes, sir.

Well, one of the issues that's come up, of course, as always does when shootings happens, is the issue of guns, and what kind of legislation might be passed to improve systems as they go on.

And as we're trying to gather evidence, ballistic fingerprinting has been one of the issues that comes up quite a bit. A very powerful law enforcement tool that had been talked about quite a lot in the last two weeks.

We strongly believe it's a tool that would be very effective and would have given the police, the law enforcement a real foothold in this case.

We wanted to talk about how much this issue is something that you guys have been addressing.

CARLSON: OK, before our guests answer that, I want to go to Melinda Meador who comes from the other side. She's from a group called Second Amendment Sisters.

MELINDA MEADOR, SECOND AMENDMENT SISTERS: Good evening. Second Amendment Sisters does not believe that ballistic fingerprinting would be an effective tool in this kind of case because over time the fingerprints on firearms change as they are fired.

Moreover, I can go in and change the parts on any fire arm. The barrel, ejector, extractor. I can polish the feed ramp. I can do all of these things and I change that fingerprint. I can do this to any firearm within five minutes.

BEGALA: Ms. Norton, we're running out of time. But let me ask you to respond.

NORTON: The only reason we know that it's probably the same killer right now is that the ATF does use a form of ballistics fingerprinting. We just -- we have it in two states. We have a very limited base. We need a nationwide -- and we could do this everywhere.

This -- what has happened in this region is the best argument for ballistics fingerprinting.

BEGALA: Senator Allen, your state is the home of the NRA.

ALLEN: And we're glad to have them there.

BEGALA: What's your position on this? ALLEN: My position on it is, and I think it's similar to President Bush's views, is that the ATF can do a study on this, but Maryland is an example, and they do that for handguns. They haven't solved a single crime with it.

It is expensive and it's easy to alter what your fingerprinting will be. Now, also understand that 70 percent of guns that are used in crimes are stolen.

And so, it's not going to do you any good in 70 percent of the crimes anyway. We're going to try to do everything we can, but recognize that these are laws being -- many laws being broken that are capital offenses in Virginia, and this fingerprinting, while it may sound wonderful, really may not be all that effective.

But I think we ought to have a study, look at where they've done it. See how easy or effective it might be. But I think that from what we've seen, it really is not going to give us much hope.

CARLSON: Congresswoman Morella, I want you to respond to a question from our audience, if you would.

Yes sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, my name is John (ph) Magruder (ph). I'm from Chevy Chase, Maryland.

Yesterday, Governor Glendening and Lieutenant Governor Townsend banned legal, registered hunters in Maryland from hunting in four counties in Maryland.

Do you believe there is merit in this restrictive action as it relates to the Beltway sniper?

BEGALA: Is that hysteria, do you think?

MORELLA: Well, I would think that certainly he should consult with the law enforcement people, particularly the national experts and find out whether or not there is a reason for it.

But if I could also, on another subject, bring these two parties together with myself who believes in the ballistic fingerprinting and say that yesterday in the House we passed a bill that will make the instant background check for gun owners work.

It's actually sponsored on both sides.

CARLSON: Congresswoman Morella, with all due respect, "The Washington Post" this morning reports that for months people with criminal record were able to buy firearms in your state of Maryland.

MORELLA: Absolutely appalling. Actually, for almost six months they stopped the criminal background checks, which meant that you have felons, you have people who have mental incapacitation, you have those who have been domestic violence abusers who have had a gun.

For 30 months, as a matter of fact, 283 cases of people who had illegal weapons were out there.

BEGALA: We're almost out of time. You got about two seconds.

ALLEN: What this argues for is enforcing the laws on the book. Virginia has instant criminal records check that I actually authored in the legislature when I was there for all firearms.

It's fast, fair and effective, and what we need to do is enforce the laws we have on the books.

NORTON: And put ballistic fingerprint on the books, because we don't have that at all on the books.

BEGALA: Do the cops want in your district say they want this?

NORTON: The cops say they want it. If we would not know anything about this -- this bullet that has -- these bullets that have been used here were not for ballistic fingerprinting which is now being used by federal authorities for this crime.

If that isn't an argument for it, I don't know what is.

BEGALA: That will have to be the last word. Delegate Norton, Congresswoman Morella, Senator Allen, thank you very much for your time.

That is all the time we have for tonight. I am Paul Begala.

Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: I am Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

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Aired October 16, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Sniper on the loose, a CROSSFIRE town meeting. The Washington area comes together to deal with an apparent madman who is getting away with murder. Tonight's focus: the investigation. What do we know? What more can be done? Why is it taking police so long to crack the case?
The sniper, who is this shooter, and what's driving this person to kill?

Live from the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening. Hit and run killer armed with a high-powered rifle terrorizes the Washington area. Over the next hour we'll discuss the two-week rampage that has killed nine people and wounded two others.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Most nights, as you know, CROSSFIRE tackles an issue from the left and the right. But a cold-blooded killer is not exactly a left-right issue, so tonight we'll analyze the issue from several different perspectives. We'll talk about the investigation, the killer, the community.

CARLSON: We'll be joined by homicide investigators, criminologists and government officials, as well as business and community leaders, members of the Guardian Angels, religious leaders, and a witness to one of the shootings.

BEGALA: But before we hear from our guests or from our audience, let's begin with an update on the investigation. CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us from Montgomery County, Maryland, where the investigation is centered -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paul and Tucker, police are giving us lots more information now after this latest shooting, because they are getting a lot more. They had a lot of witnesses to the shooting Monday night. But they are telling us today, unfortunately, that information is not going to gel together into a composite because though they had these very good witnesses, apparently the witnesses couldn't agree exactly on what they saw, on any defining characteristics of this individual.

They could only agree it was a man. And witnesses at the scene on Monday and then also at one other scene are still saying that they believe it was an olive skinned man or darker skinned man. One witness says that he believes the weapon that the killer was holding -- they say they saw the killer actually shouldering a gun -- was an AK-74, but police say don't read too much into that. This person could be wrong and the killer could be switching guns, just as the killer could very well be switching vehicles.

Now when it comes to a composite, we thought we might get one from the Friday shooting in Manassas, Virginia, some 50 miles south of D.C. But police say that the witnesses now in that shooting took a look at the composite graphics that were put out yesterday of those two different white vans and they said, well, that gels pretty well with what I recall, so you don't need to put together another composite.

Again, this killer is getting bolder and bolder. We're now hearing that he shot his latest victim, the one in Falls Church, Virginia, from just some 30 yards away. Back to you.

BEGALA: Kathleen Koch, thank you for that update from Montgomery County, Maryland.

In a moment, we're going to hear from our studio audience, a broad array of community leaders and citizens in the nation's capital area. But joining us first with their insights on the investigation, former United States -- Assistant United States Attorney, David Schertler, who also served as chief of the homicide section in the U.S. attorney's office here in Washington, and former D.C. homicide Detective, J.T. McCann.

CARLSON: We have a composite sketches of two vehicles that the killer possibly drove. But as Kathleen Koch just said, we don't have a composite photograph. Seems to me that kind of information would be helpful. Why don't we have it?

J.T. MCCANN, FMR. D.C. HOMICIDE DETECITVE: Well, I guess the big concern is the reliability of those witnesses. Law enforcement is not going to put out a composite unless they are sure it at least looks like the suspect. And, in a case like this, they have so many witnesses, at least in the latest shooting, that it's very hard to figure out who is exactly right with their description.

BEGALA: Well, David, let me ask you this. You used to prosecute these homicide cases. You hear that a lot, and yet you go in a courtroom and lawyers like you, prosecutors put these eyewitnesses on and they seem so authoritative. How reliable are they in fact?

DAVID SCHERTLER, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, it really depends on the circumstances of the -- surrounding the eyewitness identification itself. If you had the good opportunity to view the suspect, if the lighting was good, if there was enough time for you to see the suspect, you can argue that the eyewitness identification is reliable and the jury can rely upon it.

I think what Joe is talking about is a situation where authorities are concerned that nobody got a real good look at the suspect. And what they are getting are differing descriptions. And with that, there's no way that they can put together a composite that they would feel confident in. And I think they are trying take this in measured steps, steps that will lead to the capture of the person who is doing it and a successful prosecution as well.

CARLSON: OK. Speaking of witnesses, a member of our audience tonight, Joy Zucker, was at the scene of the last shooting moments after it took place. Joy, what did you see?

JOY ZUCKER, SHOOTING WITNESS: Well, actually, I drove up into that Home Depot parking lot, it turns out, only about four minutes after the shooting. And I had no immediate indication that there was a crime scene involved. But as soon as I got out of my car, I actually saw a police car that was parked in one of the aisles and walked over through the cars, in fact, to see that there was a body on the ground that was already covered.

I immediately then looked at the actual front of the Home Depot store and saw the 25 or 30 or so eyewitnesses and employees who were standing there just staring at that scene. And it was a -- it was a telling and startling moment to realize that this was, you know, the scene of something. I had no idea what yet.

I walked up to some of them and asked them what happened? How long ago did this happen? And they said it had just taken place just before I drove in.

Most of those people were just stunned and absolutely frozen in silence. There was no talking amongst those people. They were just staring at that scene. It was just that frightening.

And I'm a television producer. I've been in the business for 20 years. You come on scenes well after the fact and you are covering this. This was just amazing to be here and in that role.

I did try to help, in the sense that anybody who had any information tried to pull them aside and otherwise lead police to those people. Police did a phenomenal job isolating those witnesses and talking to them.

BEGALA: And, Joy, in those first moments you were there, the police, were they there yet? Had they cornered off the area? Everybody else was stunned, but clearly the killer was escaping.

ZUCKER: Within that first minute and a half that I was there, there were at least three or four additional Fairfax county police officers that had arrived. And within just minutes after that, you saw their jurisdiction on the scene.

You actually saw at least another half a dozen officers up and down both Route 50 and Route 7. They were cornering off that entire area on the streets, the exits from the actual shopping center. And, otherwise, they were very quick to start roping off the actual area of the parking lot around the victim and maintain all the evidence that was there.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. McCann, how, under those circumstances, with police organizations roping off all the streets, do you think the killer got away? J. MCCANN: I think everybody is asking that question, how did he get away? I don't know how he got away. But I'll tell you this. I think that what's going to happen is we may be in this for the long hall. And in the very beginning, and up until now, the police are getting a lot of support from the public.

And as this thing goes on and on, the public -- and you may start to see it now - are going to start to question the police. Why did the guy get away when you - and that's the time when you really have to hang in there with the police.

This thing could go on for a long time. In the shotgun stalker case here in D.C., it went on for almost two months.

BEGALA: And that's a similar case. You were the lead investigator on that, right?

J. MCCANN: Yes, and that was a very similar case to this. And if you lose the public now, if you start questioning, are the police doing this or they're not doing this - and it's understandable. There's a level of frustration not only among the public, but also among the police.

The police are going to need the public throughout this whole investigation. If it takes two months, you have just got to be prepared to be in this thing for the long haul.

BEGALA: Let me go to another member of the public. This gentlemen in our audience has some questions for you. Yes, sir, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. My question is, do you think it's a good idea to continually encourage average, everyday citizens to go out and partake in their everyday lives when we don't have the same protections that law enforcement and politicians have?

CARLSON: Do you think that's a good idea?

SCHERTLER: That's a tough question. I think people are going to make that decision on their own. I think people have to conduct their daily lives. You can't just stop because of what's going on.

And, at the same time, I think that everybody needs to use a certain amount of caution in how they proceed about their daily activities. I think that's the common sense approach. It's somewhere in the middle.

BEGALA: Yes, sir, what's your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a question. I wonder why they shut down the roads for an hour or two to three hours and presumably the sniper leaves rather promptly.

BEGALA: Joe, you've done these investigations for years?

J. MCCANN: In a murder case, and especially in a case like this, I don't mean to sound callous, but the police are going to do whatever they got to do to catch this guy. And if you have to suffer some inconveniences, like being stuck in traffic and all of that, I'm sorry for that and I'm sure the police department is sorry for that. But the point is that there are families out there that are going to live with this for the rest of their lives. And so if we have to take those kinds of precautions and do those kind of things and inconvenience people, we apologize for it, but it's something that has to be done.

CARLSON: But I think the question is more on the lines of was it done in the most effective way. People will accept lots of inconvenience. But was it done well?

J. MCCANN: Again, but here comes the question of criticism: did they do the right thing? These cases happen few and far between. The last one we had, the shotgun stalker we talked about, was 10 years ago. So there's not a blueprint for how do we do these things.

We're all working in this thing together. And so maybe they weren't as effective as they could have been, maybe they were. You have to be in that mix to know for sure if they did everything they could do.

BEGALA: I want to go to -- Pastor Tom Schmid is with us here. You were caught in one of those traffic jams, weren't you?

REV. TOM SCHMID, PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER: Oh yes. We were on our way back from Baltimore, where we had had dinner that evening. And as we were on 495, the beltway, about to cross into Virginia, and my wife looked across the bridge and we could see 25 or 30 police cars, sirens, all of the oncoming traffic had been stopped.

There was just a massive tie up. And when we passed -- as we were passing by, she said, oh, clearly something has happened. And so she called our daughter in Baltimore on her cell phone to ask her to turn on the television. She already had it on.

And it happened at the Home Depot, which was about a mile from our home, where we were going. And then we got into our own roadblock on Interstate 66, about two miles from home.

BEGALA: But, David, there's probably no other alternative for the police is there? :

SCHERTLER: There's not. And I actually think that the response plan that they put in place -- and I think there's coordination among all the jurisdictions involved, as well as the federal agencies -- in terms of these dragnets. But, you know, again, it's kind of a common sense thing. The killer is going to have a certain amount of lead time before the police actually respond to the scene, figure out what's happened and are able to radio out the dragnet message.

And so what they going to try to do is cut off the major arteries at some points, extend it from the scene of the crime, to see if they can find the killer. And that's a laborious process. You have to go through each car. You are not sure what kind of car the killer would be in. So your stopping each individual car, inspecting it, questioning. And then the problem, no matter how good the police have a plan in place, that area is -- there are some major arteries, but there also a lot of small side streets. And if the killer is familiar with the area, he can escape through side streets that there is no conceivable way that the police could try to block.

CARLSON: We're going to take a quick break. When we return, the media, are they hurting or helping the investigation? The shooter, who is he, and can he be stopped? Also, why this case triggers both fear and fascination. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to the CROSSFIRE town meeting.

Our topic: the Washington area sniper killings. When the first of nine victims was gunned down two weeks ago, the press descended and has not let up since. Are reporters hurting or are they helping the investigation?

Joining us now, "Washington Post" media critic, Howard Kurtz, who is also the host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES." Still with us, former U.S. Assistant Attorney David Schertler and former D.C. homicide detective, J.T. McCann.

BEGALA: Now let me begin with this gentleman's question. I know you have a question about the media. And we've got an ace media reporter here. What's your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. My name is Josh from Philadelphia. With such a high media presence, has the sniper gained too much information about the investigation, and if so, will that allow him to change his style and his MO?

HOWARD KURTZ, RELIABLE SOURCES: I don't buy the notion that all of this media attention - and it has reached a 24-hour wall to wall saturation pitch that we're all familiar with - is somehow hurting the investigation or helping the sniper. There's so much we don't know about the sniper and his motivations.

So I don't think if we just turned out the lights here and all the reporters went home that somehow the killings would stop. I do think where the media have gone into their famous (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mode is in - because there's a lot of air time to fill, it's a compelling story, it's a life and death story, and yet we have very few facts. And so you get lots of experts coming on to talk about how it's a video game addict, it's a Vietnam veteran, they are young, they are short, there are two people, there's one person. And I think that viewers sense that we're filling a lot of air time without a lot of information here.

BEGALA: Well, Joe, let me ask you about a piece of information that did come out, actually two. The whole public, and presumably the murderer, knows that there's a busted tail light on this van, or there was at least until we told him to fix it. And that we got part of the license plate. Why did the cops let that information out to the media.

J. MCCANN: You know, I've heard that argument before with -- they had -- they were looking for him that night, that moment, right after the shooting. That was the best time to put out as much information as they could about that car. And putting that information -- they had a judgment.

If we don't put it out, maybe he'll be - but if we put it out right now, we'll stop him right now. Maybe we'll catch him right now, and maybe we'll prevent another one from happening.

BEGALA: OK. We have another question from our audience. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With national attention focused on the sniper, do you think the media is putting additional fear on the public?

CARLSON: What about that, Mr. Schertler? I know that a number of law enforcement officials in this area have suggested that. Do you think it's true?

SCHERTLER: No, I don't. There's obviously going to be fear created by what's going on. I think that the public has a right to know what's going on. And the public can see from the press accounts of what's happened, kind of the extent of the potential danger to people. But frankly, I agree with Howard on this and with Joe. I think you have to provide this information to the public.

The best possibility of solving this case is a tip from somebody who knows this killer or who has a suspicion about this killer. The only way we're going to get that is if we provide the public with the information that law enforcement has about who this might be.

BEGALA: Well, Howard Kurtz, when I was in the government, reporters often accused us of using the press. Government does, of course, to get out favorable stories. But here is one where maybe the government is using you to catch a criminal.

KURTZ: And that's exactly how we should be used. And any smart police chief or law enforcement official needs to be conscious - I mean you've got all of these journalists and camera crews camped out in Rockville, in Virginia. Why not use them to try to put information out?

But I was really struck to see a "Newsweek" poll this week in which people around the country, not just in the Washington-Maryland- Virginia area, were more concerned now about a sniper in their area. So clearly the saturation coverage is having an effect in terms of people's perceptions, not just the very real fears that people here naturally feel.

CARLSON: We're almost out of time. But I think a lot of people are wondering to what extent does the press agonize over the information it has and over whether it should release that information. At the "Washington Post" is there a lot of hand wringing about should we put this in print or not?

KURTZ: Nobody who lives in this community wants in any way to be responsible for putting out any details from this investigation that's going to jeopardize anybody's life or jeopardize this investigation. At the same time, we have to strike a balance between putting information out and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) law enforcement.

If the police chief got on the phone and asked me or any other journalist, don't publish that, because that's going to hurt the investigation, it's going to help the sniper, I bet you that we would hold it back.

BEGALA: That's a good point. Let me thank former Assistant U.S. Attorney, David Schertler, Howard Kurtz, of the "Washington Post," who is going to hang around for the rest of the show as well, and Joe McCann, former Chief of the D.C. Homicide Section, both with very informative discussion.

Coming up next, profiling the beltway sniper. How it's done and how it may help to catch a killer. And, the national bullet tracking systems. Is it the technology law enforcement needs, and, if so, will politicians support it? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to our town hall meeting. Two weeks and still no end to a sniper's rampage here in the nation's capital. What do police know about the Washington area killer?

Well, joining us to talk about the process of profiling killers, CNN Security Analyst Kelly McCann and CNN Criminologist Casey Jordan. Thank you both for joining us.

CARLSON: Mr. McCann, one thing we do know about this killer is that he's firing these kind of bullets, .223, little tiny bullets (UNINTELLIGIBLE) gun powder behind them. What information can you draw from that fact, and what else do we know about this guy based on what he's done?

K. MCCANN: If you look at it from a purely mechanical standpoint, if you take this bullet and you look at the current technology behind the different barrels that are available in that weapon, the number of twists per inch, the -- changing this bullet, this could be a 55 grain bullet, it could be a 64 grain bullet. There's many, many different kinds of pressures that can be built up behind it the way it's loaded, even though you can buy it off the shelf. He must know the good combination, or the bullet would be totally unstable as it leaves the muzzle and would greatly reduce the accuracy.

And this is a guy that has made shots from 30 yards to 150 yards. And the way that weapons work, you basically have to have the point of impact to the point of aim by adjusting the sites. Which means, if I do that mechanical process at 200 yards, I can be off by 10 inches at 50 yards.

So he obviously knows how to hold the weapon to compensate or can adjust based on where he thinks he's going to have to shoot.

CARLSON: So he's an expert is what you're saying?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: I wouldn't say expert. A hobbyist could go on the Internet and drag down enough of this information to make those kind of adjustments. But he is a - not a neophyte.

BEGALA: We have a question from our audience, too. I think Casey Jordan can get inside this guy's head. This guy wants to ask you about that. Go ahead, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a student from GW and I've noticed that the patterns of the killings have occurred either in early morning or early evening. I was wondering do you believe that the sniper is a family man who goes home after work and possibly watches this very show?

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: That's absolutely occurred to me. Especially because we have two full weekends of no shootings. And that seems significant, especially because we had hoped to get through this Monday. We were all very hopeful that we got through a Monday without an incident. And we ended up being wrong.

But you're right, it's almost rush hour in the morning and then rush hour in the evening. It's like family man hours. People are looking at this very closely, because it's entirely possible that he does have a family, he does have maybe a wife, children on weekends, lives with his parents. Who even knows. But it could be that he has other obligations that are keeping him within that timeframe.

BEGALA: Casey, let me ask you this. Is this somebody - you're guessing, of course - but is this somebody who is like stone crazy like David Berkowitz, who thought a dog was talking to him and ordering him to kill, the Son of Sam, or more like a Timothy McVeigh, who committed mass murder, wasn't insane at all. Just evil.

JORDAN: I don't see much to support a psychotic tendency. Definitely a social, maybe even sociopathic. But it's so methodical, so organized, he could be sitting next to you on a bus and you wouldn't even know it.

CARLSON: Now do you - Kelly McCann, as a former member of the armed services, do you get the sense from the way this man has behaved that he has a military background?

K. MCCANN: I don't think I would stretch it to a military background, but discipline, yes. I mean if any of you sitting out here can think about it, if you had to step from a car in a public area exposed, shoulder a weapon that clearly doesn't fit in that area, make a quick shot, get back in the car and drive away without hitting anything, jumping a curb, bumping into somebody in his haste, that's pretty disciplined. Now whether that's instilled by having done a stint in the U.S. armed forces or not, can't say. But it clearly goes beyond kind of erratic behavior that would just be snatch a gun, jump out of a car, make a shot, maybe it hits, maybe it doesn't, and get out of here. So that leads to discipline.

BEGALA: Let me ask another audience member to ask another question. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Do you feel that a copycat crime will emerge as a result of the information overload from the media?

BEGALA: Casey, what do you think?

JORDAN: In terms of your question, I guess you are asking if another type of perpetrator could respond by the media attention. The possibility always exists. But what we tend to see, in studying these cases in the past, copycat crimes are far more often caused by movies, that sort of media. Not media coverage of these events, but actual movies that might feature a crime.

We tend to see people imitating art, but not so much imitating life. The possibility always exists, but I really don't think you're going to see that, because this one has really touched people at the core.

CARLSON: Well let me ask Howard Kurtz from the "Washington Post" who is still here, your own newspaper this past weekend ran a story that suggested that media coverage was egging this guy on. Have in the newsroom you heard people say, gee, I hope copycats don't read my story and do it what this man is doing?

KURTZ: I think we always have that feeling, Tucker. And, you know, we also hope there's a limited supply of sufficiently violent and crazy people out there that might be inspired to do this sort of thing. But, at the same time, you are the biggest newspaper in the community. People are understandably worried. They want information, they want to know what's happening in their schools and how people are changing their routines.

I mean we all - you know this ideal world where we sort of tamp down the media coverage so that we don't give anybody ideas, it simply doesn't exist. There's no way to make it exist in the 24-hour cable Internet universe.

BEGALA: Well, Kelly, let me ask you to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to educate the rest of us and inspire us. How can we outsmart this guy? How can we protect ourselves in our daily lives?

K. MCCANN: The hardest thing to do is to try to identify or isolate or control one person in a sea of fish. So I mean, the bottom line, things you can do that you know about the mechanics of a weapon is that if you interrupt the line of sight, then the shot can't be made. So if you need to go shopping, and you make a circuit around the parking lot and you look for things consistent with what we know, you can make a judgment of whether you want to park in that parking lot and go to that shopping place or not.

If you choose to, when you get out - and what are you looking for, is people sitting alone, two men sitting alone, people that don't have a reason to be doing what they appear to be doing, which is nothing. Then when you move to the shopping place, mask yourself. You don't have to do the serpentine. We've all had that joke out recently, you know, about running the serpentine. You don't have to do that.

But if you put obstructions between you and the sniper's line or potential line of fire, obviously he can't shoot through it. When you get inside you do your shopping. When you come out, before you leave the recess of the building, look not at your car, but at the vantage points that can look at your car.

That's kind of a premise of counter-sniping, because it's not important that he sees the car or you at the door. He needs to see you at the car, if that's where you would be going. So you make that determination on the same things. Do I see a car that's suspicious?

And don't get harmed by the van. Look for the pattern of behavior, because that's going to give you the answer.

BEGALA: John Ayala is here as well. He is with the Guardian Angels. Let me ask John if he wants to tell us what his organization has been trying to do to protect people.

JOHN AYALA, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Yes, how are you doing?

BEGALA: Good, John.

AYALA: What we are doing, because the sniper has shot and killed four people at gas stations throughout the D.C. metro area, we decided to put a few members, about two dozen Guardian Angels, at several different gas pumps throughout Virginia, Montgomery County, and PG County and pumping gas.

This way, the citizens feel a lot safer because what was happening, the citizens were scared to pull up to the pumps, and pump their own gas. I mean, they feared for their lives, especially after looking at the news and seeing someone getting shot vacuuming the car, pumping the gas. So we felt we would go out there ourselves, put our own selves in the line of fire, just to make the citizens feel safe.

BEGALA: OK. Casey Jordan, do you think that Guardian Angels are putting themselves at risk? Does the sniper seem like the sort of person who would shoot someone trying to protect the public.

JORDAN: I wish I had an answer to that. I really have to use the kind of pat answer that this guy is so far off the charts in terms of having nothing -- there are no previous cases we can really compare this to.

I can't tell you whether that would provoke him or just place the crime elsewhere. We really don't know what's making him tick, but I do believe that the more we step up police activity -- and I commend it, I think it's tremendous to see the activity we've had since Monday night -- but I don't think for one minute this guy will pack up and go, Oh well, they're out there, I had better -- he may cool off, he may take time off, but I think it's far more likely they are going to displace it to a whole new geographic arena.

BEGALA: Casey, how about the rest of us, though? Should we be too scared to pump our own gas? I mean, I admire what John and his group is doing, but do -- I think it's overreacting, candidly, to not want to pump your own gasoline.

JORDAN: Well, philosophically, I truly believe that when you start altering your lifestyle tremendously, beyond taking ordinary precautions to keep yourself safe, then the criminals have won, and we are living in a prison called our own society, and I for one won't change my routine one bit.

BEGALA: That's the spirit.

CARLSON: God love you. Unfortunately, we are out of time. Thank you both very much.

Up next -- CNN's Connie Chung will give us a look at the latest developments on the sniper story, and later, how community leaders are dealing with the killer's other weapon, which, of course, is fear. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington, D.C.

With no end in sight to a sniper's killing spree in the Washington, D.C. area, what are community leaders doing to help people carry on with their daily lives?

Joining us to talk about that, D.C. delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton and Virginia senator George Allen.

BEGALA: Thank you both for joining us. At times like this, we're not Republicans and Democrats, but you are our community leaders, and so let me ask you -- how are you telling your constituents -- I'm one of yours, Senator Allen -- how to balance prudent precautions with paralyzing fear?

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: Well, I think that they all recognize that law enforcement is trying do the best job they can, whether they are the local, whether state, also working with those in Maryland and in the District.

I tell them to be on the lookout. People are stressed out. Just filling up with gas is a worry. I want to commend -- on behalf of my wife, the Guardian Angels and others who are helping out those who are worried about all of those -- those matters about their children, and everything else, and also to let them know that most likely someone in Virginia or Maryland or D.C. is actually a neighbor of this killer, or knows him, or works with him. And what we do know is that he does drive around in this white van, whether it's the Astrovan or a Ford, and if they see anything unusual or worrisome to them, let the police know, but we have to go about our lives, just be a little bit more alert and precautionary.

CARLSON: But it strikes me that what our community is missing is a Rudy Giuliani figure who stands up and says, Yes, this is scary, but we must go on with our daily lives -- don't give in to fear.

ALLEN: But it is tough when you don't know who the individual is. You don't know who the enemy is. In the al Qaeda attacks in New York City, you know who exactly did it. In fact, those who did it were dead. They died in it. This one, there is so much uncertainty, there is so much speculation. There is no motive that people can figure out. It's much different than any other situation.

DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: After the Twin Towers, people thought that, at least for the moment, it was over. We have had 13 days, 11 killings, two people wounded, and so there's the sense of an ongoing saga. There are three different jurisdictions involved here. There's no one person who can take hold of Maryland, Virginia, and the District of Columbia. What each of us can do, and Senator Allen and I, for example, had a briefing today by important federal officials who are involved in this matter, is to take from that the assurances we had that real resources were being used.

I also -- I try to use my own personal experiences with my own constituents. For example, I go on a -- I race walk, and on Sunday I was race walking early, along the Mall. And, of course, I'm in the District, and I try to assure my residents that terrible as it may seem, he seems to prefer open spaces, and at least for the moment he has not been in the District because there are no fast getaways from the District of Columbia, so if he would try to get out of here...

CARLSON: So you are making traffic work for you.

BEGALA: Traffic is good, is what you're saying.

NORTON: However on the morning, on Sunday morning, when I'm out, and I found myself in the middle of the Mall, I say to my folks, you know, as unlikely as it is that this man is going to be here, the fact is I'm a perfect shot today, and you might be able to get out of the District. So I say to them, yes, think about where you are, but please don't stop doing what you've been doing. Don't bring our economy down with you. Don't give him that pleasure.

BEGALA: Right. I want to turn to a very special guest we have got tonight, Ms. Alexis Archer is the guidance counselor at Benjamin Tasker Middle School where a 13-year-old boy was, in fact, shot -- and what are you telling your students there, Ms. Archer?

ALEXIS ARCHER, GUIDANCE COUNSELOR, BENJAMIN TASKER MIDDLE SCHOOL: For the most part, we're just, you know, encouraging them to continue business as usual. Most of the children are pretty much concerned about their classmate, how is he doing? When is he coming back? Another concern has been, when are they going to catch this guy, and is he going to return, since the child wasn't murdered. So that's been an issue that the children have been dealing with. But for the most part, we just -- have been encouraging them to talk, you know. It's OK to talk about it. We've encouraged them to talk to their parents at home, and just to continue doing what they are doing.

BEGALA: And they are hanging in there pretty good. There is one -- the question, though, are they more scared because you are canceling -- all the schools in this area are canceling extracurriculars, outdoor activities, but yet we're sending them on those buses, and they're walking to school as well.

ARCHER: Right. I think one of the biggest concerns is for the walkers, some of the children have expressed, Oh, my gosh, I'm looking over my shoulder. When is this going to end? But I think most of the children feel pretty safe at school, and they've been doing very well. I'm really pleased with how they -- how courageous they've been.

BEGALA: We have a question from the audience -- yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Brandon DeFrank (ph) from the University of Maryland, and my question is, with so many jurisdictions involved across state lines and county lines, how can we be assured that all of these police departments are working together effectively?

CARLSON: Senator Allen, isn't a conflict inevitable?

ALLEN: No, no. A conflict is not inevitable, Tucker, when everyone has the same goal and the same mission. And in fact, they are working very well together, whether it is Montgomery County, or Prince George's County, whether it is the District, whether it is Spotsylvania County, Fairfax County, Prince William, Manassas. You also have the FBI -- as Eleanor mentioned, the FBI was briefing us. All of the federal resources from the ATF, FBI, Secret Service, Marshal's Service, everything they need is being accorded to them, as far as the forensic evidence and an analysis of the ballistics on the bullets, and so they are all working very well together. They all have the same goal.

What evidence we find in Virginia is shared, obviously, with those who are in Maryland or the District, so they are all working very well together, and in a roundabout way, the attacks of 9/11 has brought this community together in that it wasn't just the Twin Towers, it was the Pentagon, and the response there was from all the jurisdictions, and in fact, we have worked together as a delegation across party lines to make sure all emergency services, police and fire, on -- CAPWIN (ph) is what we call it -- have a communication system that works well together. So, in fact, from 9/11, that's been much improved in that technology and communications and working relationships.

BEGALA: Right. Senator Allen, we're going to take a quick break. Congresswoman Norton, hang on just a second.

When we return, we are going to be joined by a representative from Maryland so that Virginia, Maryland, and the District will all be represented here on our stage. We will have more discussion with these political leaders, but also with community leaders here in our audience, asking them how they are helping people cope with the fear of a serial killer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to a CROSSFIRE town hall meeting. We're talking about how to cope with the sniper's -- his other weapon, fear.

Here with us -- Virginia senator, George Allen, Maryland congresswoman Connie Morella, and D.C. delegate, Eleanor Holmes Norton. Thank all of you for staying with us.

CARLSON: I'd like to go to a member of our audience. Steve Robbins is here, from Montgomery County Chamber of Commerce. Mr. Robbins, tell us how, briefly if you would, this has affected the economy in Montgomery County?

STEVE ROBBINS, MARYLAND BUSINESS LEADER: I think in Montgomery County, as in any other jurisdiction that is affected by this whole situation, the businesses really have put the community ahead of their own self interest. We've all banded together. We've dealt with the reward fund. We've dealt with the victims' relief fund, trying to put, really, the incident ahead of business.

Certainly, there are businesses that are affected by what's going on out there. People are frightened. Businesses are concerned. But right now I think the key issue is to help law enforcement, to be cooperative, really to put you know, the community's interest, to band together, whether it's religious groups, community interests, business interests, bring everyone together to try to help and get this thing resolved.

CARLSON: Congresswoman Morella, do you see this tragedy as having a lasting effect on suburban Maryland and Montgomery County?

MORELLA: Well, 9/11, of course, change the world. And then when this happened right in our own neighborhood, I think it has placed a power and sobreity over the whole neighborhood. But, I do want to pick up on what Steve said. I'm really very proud of the citizenry. The Chamber of Commerce has come together to help the victims fund, to help in any way they can.

And our national resources are being employed also. The -- everything that is need from the federal government is being given toward finding that perpetrator and the FBI, the ATF, the attorney general, the helicopter, the profiling, the computer technology is all being done. So we know that. So we are just all trying to be very alert, to point out any suggestions we may have of any problems to the hot line and going about our business.

BEGALA: Congresswoman Morella, we're going to go to a quick break right now. But still to come: more reaction from this high- powered panel on the sniper who kills and then runs. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BEGALA: Welcome back to our CROSSFIRE town hall meeting. We were talking about a sniper on the loose.

And we are joined in our audience by Caleb Shreve. Caleb is the spokesman for Americans for Gun Safety -- Caleb.

CALEB SHREVE, AMERICANS FOR GUN SAFETY: Yes, sir.

Well, one of the issues that's come up, of course, as always does when shootings happens, is the issue of guns, and what kind of legislation might be passed to improve systems as they go on.

And as we're trying to gather evidence, ballistic fingerprinting has been one of the issues that comes up quite a bit. A very powerful law enforcement tool that had been talked about quite a lot in the last two weeks.

We strongly believe it's a tool that would be very effective and would have given the police, the law enforcement a real foothold in this case.

We wanted to talk about how much this issue is something that you guys have been addressing.

CARLSON: OK, before our guests answer that, I want to go to Melinda Meador who comes from the other side. She's from a group called Second Amendment Sisters.

MELINDA MEADOR, SECOND AMENDMENT SISTERS: Good evening. Second Amendment Sisters does not believe that ballistic fingerprinting would be an effective tool in this kind of case because over time the fingerprints on firearms change as they are fired.

Moreover, I can go in and change the parts on any fire arm. The barrel, ejector, extractor. I can polish the feed ramp. I can do all of these things and I change that fingerprint. I can do this to any firearm within five minutes.

BEGALA: Ms. Norton, we're running out of time. But let me ask you to respond.

NORTON: The only reason we know that it's probably the same killer right now is that the ATF does use a form of ballistics fingerprinting. We just -- we have it in two states. We have a very limited base. We need a nationwide -- and we could do this everywhere.

This -- what has happened in this region is the best argument for ballistics fingerprinting.

BEGALA: Senator Allen, your state is the home of the NRA.

ALLEN: And we're glad to have them there.

BEGALA: What's your position on this? ALLEN: My position on it is, and I think it's similar to President Bush's views, is that the ATF can do a study on this, but Maryland is an example, and they do that for handguns. They haven't solved a single crime with it.

It is expensive and it's easy to alter what your fingerprinting will be. Now, also understand that 70 percent of guns that are used in crimes are stolen.

And so, it's not going to do you any good in 70 percent of the crimes anyway. We're going to try to do everything we can, but recognize that these are laws being -- many laws being broken that are capital offenses in Virginia, and this fingerprinting, while it may sound wonderful, really may not be all that effective.

But I think we ought to have a study, look at where they've done it. See how easy or effective it might be. But I think that from what we've seen, it really is not going to give us much hope.

CARLSON: Congresswoman Morella, I want you to respond to a question from our audience, if you would.

Yes sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, my name is John (ph) Magruder (ph). I'm from Chevy Chase, Maryland.

Yesterday, Governor Glendening and Lieutenant Governor Townsend banned legal, registered hunters in Maryland from hunting in four counties in Maryland.

Do you believe there is merit in this restrictive action as it relates to the Beltway sniper?

BEGALA: Is that hysteria, do you think?

MORELLA: Well, I would think that certainly he should consult with the law enforcement people, particularly the national experts and find out whether or not there is a reason for it.

But if I could also, on another subject, bring these two parties together with myself who believes in the ballistic fingerprinting and say that yesterday in the House we passed a bill that will make the instant background check for gun owners work.

It's actually sponsored on both sides.

CARLSON: Congresswoman Morella, with all due respect, "The Washington Post" this morning reports that for months people with criminal record were able to buy firearms in your state of Maryland.

MORELLA: Absolutely appalling. Actually, for almost six months they stopped the criminal background checks, which meant that you have felons, you have people who have mental incapacitation, you have those who have been domestic violence abusers who have had a gun.

For 30 months, as a matter of fact, 283 cases of people who had illegal weapons were out there.

BEGALA: We're almost out of time. You got about two seconds.

ALLEN: What this argues for is enforcing the laws on the book. Virginia has instant criminal records check that I actually authored in the legislature when I was there for all firearms.

It's fast, fair and effective, and what we need to do is enforce the laws we have on the books.

NORTON: And put ballistic fingerprint on the books, because we don't have that at all on the books.

BEGALA: Do the cops want in your district say they want this?

NORTON: The cops say they want it. If we would not know anything about this -- this bullet that has -- these bullets that have been used here were not for ballistic fingerprinting which is now being used by federal authorities for this crime.

If that isn't an argument for it, I don't know what is.

BEGALA: That will have to be the last word. Delegate Norton, Congresswoman Morella, Senator Allen, thank you very much for your time.

That is all the time we have for tonight. I am Paul Begala.

Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: I am Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

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