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CNN Crossfire

More Information Coming to Light in the Sniper Case; House in Tacoma Scene of Major Search

Aired October 23, 2002 - 19:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. Sniper on the loose. In the CROSSFIRE: second guessing in the sniper investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: We're trying to be very thoughtful about everything that we do here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, questions about who should be in charge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Let's put somebody from the federal government in charge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNER: So when will they catch him?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If not today, then tomorrow. If not tomorrow, then the next day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Using scare tactics to get votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Think the candidates are playing rough where you live? You ain't seen nothing yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Bush and the Republicans still want to push their (UNINTELLIGIBLE) through Congress. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: We're looking over the best, funniest and dirtiest political ads of 2002.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, you asked and we heard you. Not only we will get back to politics on tonight's show, we are going to show you some of the best political ads of the year. But the fact of the matter is we cannot ignore the D.C. sniper investigation, it is just too big a story. So we will begin tonight at the Montgomery County Police headquarters and CNN's Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf, what's the latest from there?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the latest, Paul, is that we were expecting the Montgomery County Police Chief, Charles Moose, to emerge around one hour or so ago and say something. We had been told in advance that he would make a statement, not answer reporters questions, but only a few moments ago, one of his deputies, Montgomery County Captain Nancy Demi (ph), emerged to apologize to reporters, saying there have been some developments they need to focus on. They'll get back to us when there's something to say.

But right now, nothing to say. I don't want to speculate what may or may not have happened over the course of the last hour. We probably will find out eventually. But, right now, they're not planning on saying anything to reporters.

Earlier in the day, the police chief, accompanied by FBI and ATF agents, as well as others, did say they are trying to move this investigation forward. And the police chief uttered an appeal to immigrants who may be living in this part of the country and who may have seen something at yesterday's shooting in nearby Silver Spring, Maryland. The police chief did say, yes, some of those immigrants may have illegal status, but he insisted that was not something the local police were interested in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOOSE: When we have federal law enforcement officials involved in the investigation, perhaps some of our immigrant community members feel like there would be some problem for them because of their status or some questions with regards to their status, if they come forward. So, we hope that is not the case, but if that is the case, we want to stress that that is not our interest in this matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Later, the commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, James Eagler (ph), said that those people who come forward legal or illegal people will be eligible for the reward, the half a million dollar reward, if in fact they provide information that is useful to this investigation. Also, he noted that people -- illegal people here in the United States who help law enforcement are eligible to change their status and become legal residents -- Paul, Tucker.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Wolf, are there any other developments in the case? I know there was a white van stopped earlier today out on I-270. There was a letter that was found the other day. Do we have any more information on its contents? Is there anything else going on in the investigation?

BLITZER: Well, there are several things going on. As far as that white box truck that was spotted driving up Interstate 270 North, heading north of us from where we are right now, a bus driver, a Montgomery school bus driver with kids on board, said she spotted someone aboard a white box truck that apparently had a weapon. She thought that the two people in that truck were aiming that weapon. She reported that to police.

The police did shut down Interstate 270 for some time. They've reopened it since. No word on whether they spotted anyone or not or what precisely happened. But there was a brief scare there for some time. As far as letters are concerned, we have confirmed here at CNN that police did find a second letter that was left at the site yesterday in Aspen Hills section of Montgomery County with some more words presumably from this sniper.

They're not releasing the actual letter. Although, the police chief is saying that they're leaving that open if in fact that might help the subsequent investigation -- Paul.

BEGALA: Wolf, thank you very much for that report.

And, of course, later in our program tonight we're going to have more on the sniper. We'll talk to two of the country's most respected law enforcement minds. But, as we started, ever mindful that we're just 13 days from deciding which party will control the Congress, it is time for us to begin with our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Maryland Governor Paris Glendening today said he is considering ordering the Maryland National Guard to help protect voters if the Washington-area sniper hasn't been caught by Election Day. Meanwhile, the White House says that President Bush will not order the FBI to take the leading role in the investigation, saying that it is better to run the investigation by what the White House termed "a joint command."

Critics point out that a multi-jurisdictional murder spree involving more than a dozen agencies needs a centralized command, but consider the FBI's track record under Louis Freeh and Ken Starr, they assigned hundreds of agents to look into President Clinton's private life, that took them eight years and $80 million to discover that he likes women. So, Chief Moose, it's up to you. God bless you. CARLSON: Notice that Paris Glendening orders the National Guard to protect polling places and not schools. I speak for everyone in Maryland when I say I'm just glad he's not going to be governor any longer.

The talk of the sniper has, of course, dominated television news in recent days. So it was probably inevitable that the Fox news channel would reach out to the serial killer community for informed comment. The job fell to Fox correspondent, Rita Cosby, who has some experience in that field.

A couple of years ago, Cosby wrote a notably warm letter to mass murderer Timothy McVeigh, "Dear, Tim," she began, "I believe you have many important insights." She ended by promising, "I will fight for your rights."

Now, Cosby has turned her considerable affections to son of Sam killer, David Berkowitz, who is currently in prison for murdering six people. "Your personal story and spiritual growth inspired me to write to you," Cosby gushed in a recent note to Berkowitz. "Not only do I want you to come on Fox," Cosby said, "but god does too."

"The lord calls on individuals at various times to serve him and serve his people. I believe as a Christian, your help is a great service. You have a testimony that must be heard. Our world is crying and you can help." Berkowitz, apparently an ardent Fox viewer, wrote back to thank Cosby for "the kind things you said."

BEGALA: It's not right just to suggest that god wants a mass murderer to go on television. Of course, god watches CNN, anyway, he told me so today.

Well, "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post," along with the "Wall Street Journal," have all run lengthy page-long stories recently detailing the many times that our president has, well, let's just say stretch the truth.

"The Washington Post," for example, notes that Mr. Bush's claim that Iraq has unmanned aircraft that can attack America is simply untrue. Mr. Bush also claimed that the International Atomic Energy Agency has reported that Saddam Hussein was only six months away from the nuclear weapon.

False, the IAEA says. There's no such report. Same with Bush's claim that unionized emergency workers refuse to use radiation detectors. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) couldn't even pass a lie detector test.

So, out of respect for the presidency, I don't want to use words like, "lie" and "liar," so help me out. E-mail me at crossfire@cnn.com with your euphemisms for Mr. Bush's many falsehoods. Creativity and cleanliness count. We will have more Bush mendacity tomorrow night.

CARLSOLN: Actually, they did refuse to wear radiation detectors. They just don't currently refuse. But this is one of those, what's the definition of "is" questions I think. Mike Taylor is back in the race. The Montana Republican has announced that he will resume his bid to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Democratic Senator, Max Baucus. Taylor dropped out of the campaign a couple weeks ago after Democrats released a television spot that all but accused him of being gay. The spot opened with footage of Taylor, a former hairdresser, dressed in tight '70s disco clothing and massaging another man's face.

Gay rights groups, and at least one Democratic legislator complained, but the barrage continued. The latest assault comes from the Democratic Party of Montana. It's a leaflet sent to voters statewide attacking Taylor. On the cover is a female impersonator dressed in a pink stole and a red wig.

Democrats say the Taylor campaign are "taking advantage of the stereotype of men who work in the hair care profession." But they are no longer dealing with impunity. Mike Taylor is back.

BEGALA: God bless him. No, the problem with Taylor -- we'll get to this later. We'll show the ad. The problem with Taylor is he was allegedly bilking the federal government out of $160,000 in school loans. And that's what that ad's about. But we'll watch it ourselves later in this program.

Campaigns, you know, are not very often won in one debate. Candidates tend to be very well prepared, they're well scripted and they do their utmost to avoid even the slightest mistake. But this week's New Hampshire Senate debate could prove decisive.

Republican Congressman John Sununu was confronted by Democratic Governor Jeanne Shaheen over Sununu's support for a flat tax, which, among many other things, would end the home mortgage interest deduction for home owners.

Sununu countered by saying, "We have to be willing to say no to the special interests wherever they may be." John Sununu thinks New Hampshire homeowners are just another special interest. Too bad he didn't feel that way a year ago this week, when he voted for a quarter of a Billion dollar tax rebate for the crooks at Enron.

CARLSON: Actually, I saw that debate, and the Libertarian won. But John Sununu came in a strong second and just steam rolled and crushed poor Governor Shaheen, which is why I think he's going to win in the end, thank heaven.

History has reached a verdict this week. It comes in the form of Bartlett's familiar quotations. The university (UNINTELLIGIBLE) encyclopedia of historically significant quotes. The 17th edition of Bartlett's just went on sale. It contains three new quotations from former President Bill Clinton, all of them dishonest.

You may recognize them. "I didn't inhale," "I did not have sexual relations with that woman," and, "It depends on the meaning of the word 'is'." There you have it. Eight years of speeches, statements, press conferences, radio addresses and endless unscripted remarks, close to a decade of full (UNINTELLIGIBLE) non-stop yapping boiled down to its essence: three embarrassing throw away lines.

It's sort of sad, if you think about it. And of course totally fitting. According to Bartlett's the only significant words that came out of the Clinton years came not from Clinton himself, but from a certain squinting, balding southern strategist who once pointed out that "It's the economy, stupid." And that's it. The Shakespeare of the Clinton era.

BEGALA: This is what's telling about Republicans. They get upset if Democrats lie about sex, but they think it is fine for President Bush to lie about a war. Which is more important?

CARLSON: It never added up to anything. It's sad, its poignant. I feel bad about it.

BEGALA: Ever so slowly, politics is beginning to creep into the sniper investigation. Senator John McCain today told CNN That if he were president, he would put the FBI in charge of the sniper investigation.

In a minute, we'll ask our guests whether Chief Moose should pull the plug and give up the podium.

And later tonight, we're going to go hunting for some of the year's best ads.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hunt because my daddy hunted. He hunted because his daddy hunted...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Well, we'll see if any of those ads are really on target, coming up soon. Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

The White House says that 1,300 federal law enforcement personnel are helping with the sniper investigation. But the Feds will not be taking over. So who is in charge here and who should be?

In Los Angeles is former New York City Police Commissioner, Howard Safir. And in Houston, former FBI Special Agent, Don Clark. Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us.

CARLSON: Mr. Clark, we learned something remarkable in the last 24 hours. Apparently the sniper called in to a special hotline five time, or at least five times over the past week or so and was hung up on at least once by an employee of the FBI who thought he was crazy. As if the sniper wouldn't be crazy.

Can you explain how this happened? Is this a major mistake? Is this the kind of thing that happens a lot? What do you make of it?

DON CLARK, FMR. FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, Paul, first of all, if this is what the sniper is saying, I think we have to take that in context. If this is in fact the sniper who is calling. When those hotlines go off, there are a number of things that are taking place now.

I don't think anybody that's been a part of any organization would make any excuse for someone that's hanging up on a person. I think the right thing to do is to make sure you can get as much information as you possibly can, if this did in fact happen. Then I think somebody ought to be taken the task (ph) for it.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, let me bring you into this. You ran the largest law enforcement agency in the country outside of our Feds. We now have 13 different agencies and 1,300 different officials working on this. Don't you think we should put the FBI in charge? Well, first, actually, let me show you what John McCain said when he was asked that question on CNN this afternoon. And then I'll ask you to respond. Here is Senator McCain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: If I were president of the United States -- and I never contemplate such a thing, as you know -- I would probably announce the appointment of some very high level respected law enforcement individual to take over this entire operation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Mr. Commissioner, isn't Senator McCain right? We need one person in charge, and that person should be from the federal government?

HOWARD SAFIR, FMR. NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: I disagree. This is a state and local matter. We need the resources of the FBI, we need the resources of ATF, Secret Service, other agencies. But I think Chief Moose is doing a credible job.

He is the visible force that is now dealing with the perpetrator. I don't think we should change horses at this time. And I don't think that there is anything to suggest that an FBI agent is any more competent than a seasoned homicide investigator in dealing with this kind of crime.

CARLSON: Mr. Clark, there was news today that officials pulled over a white box truck on a highway outside of Washington, closed the highway down for a while after that. This has happened before. White trucks have been pulled over all over this region. Of course, the two hapless illegal aliens got pulled over in their white truck down in Virginia. Could the sniper really be driving a white box truck still after all of this? He watches television. What do you think the likelihood is he is still driving a car like that?

CLARK: Well, I don't think you've got to look at it in that perspective. I think what you look at is what the evidence that they have at their hands. They have to be acting and responding to whatever evidence and the amount of evidence that they have.

They just can't make a subjective guess that, well, he's probably not driving this. But if that's the information that you've got, that's what you got to go with. And then you work from here. And I think that's what they're doing. So they said a white van, let's look for white vans.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, let me ask you about our press secretary at the White House today. Ari Fleischer listed in terrific detail, the federal assets that are being deployed here. And I am glad to know that our White House is doing everything they can. But they went through -- I mean some of the things that Ari told us, 454 federal agents, 59 inspectors, how many ATF analysts, two A-star helicopters, a Blackhawk helicopter. He went on and on.

Doesn't this give the killer a road map when we tell him what resources we're deploying against him? Wouldn't it be better if we just said we're doing all we can and then shut up?

SAFIR: Well, I think part of this is to reassure the public. I mean, the fact is, that because of the randomness of this perpetrator and the fact that he has caused so much terror, not just in the Washington, D.C. area, but throughout the United States, I think this is the administration's way of trying to reassure the public that they're doing everything possible.

Because they're as frustrated as the law enforcement officials are in dealing with a killer who has no pattern, who, unlike other serial killers, apparently has no relationship whatsoever or any targets other than targets of opportunity. And the randomness of this is what causes such terror.

BEGALA: If I could press that point, though, chief, just a few days after we were told by the government that they were deploying a special surveillance plane from the Pentagon to survey the Washington, D.C. area, the sniper left the Washington, D.C. area and murdered someone in Virginia outside of Richmond. Doesn't that give him kind of a road map when we reveal the kind of assets we are using?

SAFIR: Well I think that's what is so insidious about this perpetrator, which is that as soon as we think there is a pattern, he changes it. And that's what's going to make it so difficult to capture him, which is why, more than likely, he is going to be captured because somebody knows him or he makes a stupid mistake, like the son of Sam.

CARLSON: OK. Mr. Safir, Mr. Clark, if you could just hold on for a moment. We'll take a quick break, and we're going to be back in just a second. There's a new development in the sniper story. Connie Chung will bring us a live update in just a moment.

And then, we'll ask our guests if Chief Moose should stay behind his desk and away from the cameras. And, later, they may or may not be the whole truth, but they're sure fun to watch. Stay tuned for the year's best political ads. We have them. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

There has been a development in the D.C.-area sniper case. We will go live to Connie Chung in New York for an update -- Connie.

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, I'm Connie Chung in New York. We have late developments in the Washington sniper case. In Seattle, Washington, CNN affiliates are reporting that police are searching a backyard in Tacoma, Washington, and that somehow it is related to the Washington-area sniper case.

CNN is working on the story, and as soon as we have more information on it, we'll give it to you. In the meantime, Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose has said that police were looking for the D.C. sniper or continuing to and he was going to hold a meeting with reporters.

We were assuming that what he was going to tell us was that he had another message for the supposed sniper. However, that news conference has been delayed because of "developments" in the case.

Also today, the INS says illegal immigrants will not be prosecuted or helped out of the country if they give information that might be helpful in the sniper case.

So, once again, CNN affiliates in Seattle, Washington are reporting that police are searching a backyard in the Tacoma, Washington, area and that somehow it is related to the Washington sniper case. CNN crews are working on the story and we will continue to bring you information on it.

We're looking at some pictures out there in Seattle. This was with our affiliate KING. We don't know what these details are just yet, but we'll bring them to you as soon as we have information. Back to CROSSFIRE, and be sure to join us on "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" at 8:00 Eastern Time.

CARLSON: Thanks, Connie.

OK. We are back with Don Clark and Howard Safir in New York. Mr. Safir, it sounds like we know very few details, but we do know there is some sort of investigation going on in Washington state. Does this imply to you something larger than just a single psychopath?

SAFIR: It doesn't at this point. It may be a communication from the sniper to somehow come up with some credibility. It may be based on some kind of weapon's trace, or it may really have nothing to do with it.

BEGALA: Let me ask Don Clark. As a veteran FBI agent, what do you suppose is actually going on, on the ground there? What goes into an operation like this? They're in -- outside of Seattle, Washington in Tacoma, Washington, searching for clues on the other side of the country. Why might that be? CLARK: Well, I'll tell you one thing it shows us all is that our world has become smaller and smaller. So just because something is going on in Maryland, D.C., Virginia area, that does not mean that there is not some connection in one way or another to some activity across the country from us.

So there again in lies what we talked about earlier, is that we're talking about evidence, we're talking about information that comes through, and follow that information. And if it takes you out to Seattle, then let them figure out what is going on out there.

BEGALA: I wonder, Commissioner Safir, as somebody who has run a local police department, doesn't this suggest that maybe the point of fact the Feds are really running things? I mean Chief Moose is not going to be able to order an investigation on the other side of the continent.

SAFIR: Well, anybody who is involved in an investigation like this realizes that the FBI has the kind of resources to deal in another jurisdiction. But I have often called other jurisdictions as the New York City police commissioner and generated activity in places all over the country. In fact, all over the world.

CARLSON: I'd like to bring in Mike Brooks, who is a CNN security analyst. He joins us from the CNN center in Atlanta. Mike, what do you make of this? Does this sound like the beginning of a larger story unfolding? What do you think this is?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, we know for sure, Tucker, that this is connected with the shootings in the Washington metropolitan area and Montgomery County. We are talking about the FBI's role in this. Under Title 28 of the U.S. code, the FBI has opened up a serial murder case on this particular case, which means, you now murder, as we know, is not a federal crime, unless it is committed on a military reservation, it is involved in organized crime, some other things.

But the FBI, as Don was saying -- the FBI can bring their resources into this. But any search warrants, anything else has to be applied for by the locals. So, in this case, though, the FBI, they are assisting. What we're seeing on the ground here right now, you see the area, you see the yellow tape the way the area is gridded off.

What they're doing right now, you see one person going over the area with what looks to be a metal detector. What they do here -- I was a member of the FBI's evidence response team when I was on the FBI's joint terrorism task force in Washington, D.C. And we used to go out and look for evidence.

What they're doing is they're most likely looking for a piece of evidence. I am told they're not looking for a body, but they are looking for some evidence that may be back behind this building.

The yellow tape, the way they have it gridded off, it is the first stages of probably -- then they'll go back with the metal detector, then they'll go use ground penetrating radar, which will show any anomalies under the surface of the ground. If this evidence they're looking for, which most likely is made of metal, the metal detector will be able to detect it if it's close to the surface. If not, they have it gridded off like that to use the ground penetrating radar. And it's a great help...

BEGALA: Mike, this is Paul Begela. I'm told that Kelli Arena, who is our Justice Correspondent in our Washington bureau, has even more breaking information on the story. Kelli, what have you got?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, we have been able to confirm that, in fact, law enforcement sources tell us that search warrants are indeed being executed, as we can see, in Tacoma, Washington. And definitely in relation to the sniper investigation.

But the sources also point out that there have been other search warrants executed as part of this investigation that have not panned out. The results of leads that have come in that needed to be followed up on. This one obviously being taken seriously.

But they caution that this may not turn up any evidence because they have been here before, perhaps not as dramatically, and have come up empty. But, obviously, as Mike was saying, someone had to get a search warrant. In fact, we have learned, yes, indeed, there were search warrants executed and that is one of the reasons the press conference here in Washington was possibly delayed or is not happening, as they're waiting for the results of this search.

CARLSON: OK. Kelli Arena -- thanks, Kelli.

Don Clark, does this -- I mean it sounds to me like the FBI is looking for multiple people. And if that's true, do they suspect some kind of conspiracy or terrorism? What do you make of it?

CLARK: You know I don't know if they're looking for multiple people. I think they're looking for a package. They're really looking for a strategy.

They're developing a strategy to just take a look at everything that they can and let the evidence dictate what it is that they might be looking for. The fact that they're out in Washington, D.C. does not at all indicate to me that they're looking at some type of mass conspiracy. Because it may just very well be a contact that's out there.

But I really do think that they have to follow these leads. And I certainly don't know what leads that have been followed up to this point. There may have been other activities that's going on. However, I doubt if there's been a search that's taken place, or I suspect we probably would have known. But I know that that search took place because they had enough probable cause to get a search warrant.

BEGALA: And, in fact, Commissioner Safir, you've got to help those of us who have no background in law enforcement here. My guess is that there are probably thousands of leads that don't pan out. And our viewers, of course, and CNN's going to stay on top of this, but they see this and maybe we have to be careful about getting hopes up too high too soon. What do you think?

SAFIR: I think that's right. I think there's been 17,000 calls already. And you know you have to follow every lead, but most leads turn out not to be related.

CARLSON: Now, Mike Brooks in Atlanta, tell me. You said that you have been on evidence-gathering assignments like this when you worked for the FBI. When you run a metal detector in someone's backyard, looking for, as you put it, metal objects, what do you mean? What kind of metal objects are you looking for?

BROOKS: Well, let's cut to the chase. Most likely they're looking for a weapon, from what I'm hearing from my sources. So that's most likely what they're looking for and that's what they got the warrant for most likely. And it's easy to do if it's close to the surface.

Now again, as everyone is saying, they have done other search warrants. They did a search warrant down in Virginia that came up empty. They are doing a search warrant out here now and looking for some possible evidence.

But we can't lay the whole case on this one particular lead. This is another lead that they are following up on. It may go no where. There have been many leads as the commissioner was saying, that have gone nowhere in this particular case.

CARLSON: Right, but this is a lead -- of course, true -- but this is a lead that appears to entail a back hoe judging by the live pictures we have up.

BROOKS: Right.

CARLSON: I mean, what does that say to you? I mean, if you're looking for a single handgun, I mean, can we read anything into the fact they have a bulldozer on the scene?

BROOKS: Well, again, that's what I was talking about. They'll run the metal detector, then the ground penetrating radar. Depending upon on deep this particular evidence is they're looking for, that's why they have the back hoe there. And you know, they'll run it over, look over it, look to see if there are any anomalies there. And start digging if they do see something. Then they'll make the grid a little bit smaller because they can tell by looking at the ground, at the image from the ground penetrating radar whether or not there is something there. Then they'll use the back hoe to dig it up.

BEGALA: Well, Don Clark are we safe at least in assuming that there is some -- you have mentioned before -- probable cause when you bring these sort of resources to bear in something that's this high profile. Does this maybe suggest to you that this is more than just one of those thousands of leads that don't ever pan out?

CLARK: Well, I certainly think it's more than one of those just thousands of leads that don't pan out because again, it takes probably cause to get a search warrant. No judge is going to sign off on something because someone believes, no matter how sinister the crime may be.

So a judge has signed off on this. So there has to be something in there that gets them out to that part of the country and start doing the activities that there are. There is something there that they're looking for. Whether it pans out and attaches itself to this is one thing. But the probable cause is at least there at this point.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Safir, you can see in the pictures we have up a grid on the ground. As we said there's heavy equipment involved. How long does it take to put together this kind of operation that the FBI has put together? Could they do this in a day? Have they been working on this for a week?

SAFIR: They could do it in an hour. And we don't know whether the FBI or the local police, but either one of them could put it together very quickly. I mean, there's nothing terribly sophisticated about tape, a metal detector, a back hoe and you get a hold of a -- the ground penetrating radar -- is available in a lot of places.

BEGALA: Mr. Clark, one of the reasons that the press has been covering this so aggressively, is not just that people care about it, but we've been told my law enforcement that will people will call in with more tips. And that helps the investigation.

Is this also maybe one of the ways it may hinder it, that now these cops are having to do their job, difficult enough as it is, with live cameras covering? We're able to watch their search right now, which is fascinating for us, but does that make it more difficult for the cops?

CLARK: Well, obviously when -- the more activity that you've got going on around you. But these law enforcement officers, they have to go about their business and do whatever the task may be. And I don't know that having an abundance of tips, having an abundance of tips may require more resources. But when you've got this type of exigent circumstance that we face now, you've got to take extreme measures. And that means not letting a tip go on terror.

And we've done that down here in Texas. We did it when I was up in New York on a number of cases up there. So you just don't let one go unturned. And you don't let resources be the reason that you don't go and do something. And that just may very well be the tip, not matter how small it may seem at the beginning.

And I think this is a good idea. And I think it's probably a speedier thing when you do have an entity like the FBI who perhaps can expedite a search warrant across the country, even though a local police can make a telephone call out there and perhaps get some assistance.

CARLSON: Now, Mike Brooks, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) what's puzzling about this development is everyone here in Washington has assumed the sniper, whoever he is, lives here because he appears to be so familiar with the area. I don't want to ask you to speculate, but do you have any sense, have you heard any rationale or explanation for why the investigation has moved thousands of miles from Washington?

BROOKS: Well, there is a possibility that whoever is involved in the shootings could have lived in the Tacoma, Washington area at one time. And I think if this does pan out, we'll definitely find out that could be true .

BEGALA: Don Clark, as we're watching these men do their job -- and women, I should say; don't want to be sexist here -- but as these men and women do their job there, they're looking for a metal object, which Mike Brooks told us earlier that he thinks it's a gun.

How deep can the ground penetrating radar detect something that's, you know, the size of a gun?

CLARK: Well, I don't know that because I just have that kind of scientific knowledge about it. I'm pretty well versed at being able to talk to those people and get the equipment that's needed. And I suspect that's what they have done. And I think that they'll be able to go to a depth enough to find whatever it is that may be there, if it's there at all.

BEGALA: Let me ask Mike Brooks then to pick up that then. Mike, this is ground penetrating radar. How deep can it go, and what can they find?

BROOKS: You can pick up an anomaly under the ground maybe four, five up to six feet deep, depending upon what kind of equipment they're using, what kind of model of ground penetrating radar they're using and some other technology that they do have at their disposal.

The FBI evidence response team does an excellent job. I know there is one in Seattle. And there is a possibility that they could be -- could be being used here.

We've used it to find remains under the ground. To look for, we've gone out sometimes and looked for remains and find antique bottles, you know, that's all we find.

But the penetrating ground radar works extremely well, and there's some other technology that the evidence response teams and other forensic experts are able to bring to bear at this particular scene. I'm sure they're using it.

CARLSON: Commissioner Safir, you've obviously seen a lot of crimes and investigated a lot. Does this series of crimes, these shootings in the Washington area, remind you of any case you've investigated in the past?

SAFIR: It doesn't because of the randomness of it. You know, we had the Zodiac killer in New York. We had Son of Sam. When you look around the country at Franklin (ph) and people like that, they all have some kind of relationship with their victims. And they get some pleasure out of inflicting pain on their victims. This perpetrator seems to be more interested in targets of opportunity and seems to be getting his pleasure out of the surrounding media hype that follows it and the notoriety that he's getting as a result of his shootings. But there is no personal interaction.

And I can't remember any case similar to this.

CARLSON: Well, does that make you suspect -- except of course in terrorism cases -- and I wonder if that makes you suspect that there's a political motive somewhere here.

SAFIR: Well, there may be as political motive in this individual's mind. I personally don't think it's terrorism, although you can't rule out anything. But it just doesn't feel like terrorism. The kind of interaction that the perpetrator is having with Chief MOose doesn't suggest to me that it's terrorism.

BEGALA: In fact, let me ask Don Clark that same question though. Coming from the FBI where they do have a lot more experience with terrorism, it does seem to be this would be the perfect distraction for Al Qaida to then do some other attack - God-forbid a weapons of mass destruction -- even when we now have thousands, justifiably, but thousands of our best law enforcement personnel searching for this sniper. Is this that too far fetched?

I think we lost Don Clark. Let me throw that then to Commissioner Safir. Do you think this could possibly be a distraction to them prepare for, God-forbid, a second attack from Al Qaida?

SAFIR: Well, I don't think there's any question that we're going to be vulnerable to a second attack. And I think everybody who's in this business expects that there is going to be a second attack.

I just don't think that this is the distraction that you're suggesting.

CARLSON: OK. Mike Brooks, do we have any indication of who it is that's doing the investigating on the ground in Tacoma, Washington? Is it the FBI? Is it the local law enforcement? Who is it?

BROOKS: No, we can't say for right now. Looking at the vehicles and being familiar with the vehicles, it looks like there could be some FBI involvement, but we can't say for sure at this moment.

It could be the FBI's evidence response team from there. And they also, on a regular basis, bring groups from the engineering section of Quantico in that have some of this specialized equipment to actually run the equipment.

But again, that's speculation right now. But we will find that out shortly.

CARLSON: Well, we were just talking a moment ago about the possibility that there's a political element to these killings. And I've wondered if you've heard mention of any groups that are under extra heavy surveillance, or have been for the last month. Typically, as I understand it, groups who might be responsible for acts like this come under extra surveillance when something like this happens. Has that been happening? Do you know?

BROOKS: I know that all of the sources are out there. They're beating the bushes on the FBI side. They FBI joint terrorism task force in Washington does a fantastic job. They're out there trying to find out exactly if there is any terrorist link to this.

You know, everybody says, "You know, is this terrorism?" We've talked about terrorism. We don't know what the motivation behind the shooter is.

Usually, under the FBI definition of terrorism, the unlawful use of force or violence to intimidate or coerce a government, civilian population or any segment thereof in the furtherance of political or social objectives.

Now, has this shooter changed the lives of people? Has he had a change of their -- is it a social objectives?

I think he's changed the lives socially of people, but in the true sense of terrorism, looking at 9/11, and the World Trade Center, those incidents, I don't know if we're really looking at a true terrorist.

I would think not. But just recently we heard homeland security Director Tom Ridge come out and say, "It does look like terrorism, because this person is terrorizing the whole community."

BEGALA: Right. Commissioner Safir, as we're watching these law enforcement personnel conduct a search in Tacoma, Washington, on the other side of the country from us, we're thrown around phrases like "probable cause," and I think lawyers and cops know what that means. But for the rest of our audience, now high a bar is that? What do they need to take to a judge? As a general matter, of course we don't know the specifics here, but as a general matter, what do you need to bring to a judge before you can go into someone's home with a back hoe?

SAFIR: You have to bring some sort of substantive evidence. You have to either have a reliable source who is giving you the information. There has to be some substantive evidence that you've collected somewhere that would indicate some documentary evidence, perhaps, that would indicate that there was evidence to be found on the site. And it has to be, a reasonable man has to assume that a search would result in the seizure of some evidence.

CARLSON: OK, Mike Brooks in Atlanta, according to a wire we just received, the agents in the ground are federal agents. There's some from FBI, some from ATF. Apparently they've removed something from the scene, and found something, quote, "large underground." And it remains underground.

Wondering at what point an investigation does the ATF come in? We've talked about the ATF a lot. Can you give us the one set of (inaudible) of what the ATF is and when they enter into an investigations?

BROOKS: Well, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in this particular case, they are handling all of the forensics dealing with any weapons or any evidence that's gotten from the scenes -- shell casings, bullets fragments from the victims and also from victims' cars.

They are handling all of this. IT's being taken to their lab in Rockville, Maryland for a comparison.

There are experts there. They're forensic experts and firearms analysts are some of the best in the world. And they've done a great job so far.

CARLSON: So where -- if it is in fact true, and we assume that it is, that something has been removed from the ground, where does it go? I mean, does it go to lab? Does it go to an evidence locker?

BROOKS: Right.

CARLSON: What happens?

BROOKS: Most likely they will take this evidence, depending on what they find. If it's a weapon, most likely it will go to the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms lab that's been doing the work all along.

If it's any other evidence that they find, any other communiques with envelopes, those kind of things, that may have any kind of DNA evidence, fingerprint evidence, that will be sent most likely to the FBI lab for analysis.

BEGALA: And Don Clark, I'm glad you're back with us now. We're told that the FBI will be conducting a briefing shortly to let us know more facts. But what happens to the investigation if the evidence we now know goes to the FBI crime lab and so forth? Do we -- what do we expect next in the investigation? More searches or maybe arrest warrants being issued? Where do we go from here?

CLARK: Well, you're hoping that if you're conducting a search warrant, if you're exercising, executing a search warrant, what you're really trying to do is to get information that leads you to build a case, to identify someone to build a case, to identify a suspect.

And hopefully that can lead to an arrest. Or maybe it just leads you to one other step in the chain.

I don't want to jump to the conclusion and say that this particular incidence out in Washington may be the key of bringing this case to a conclusion. I would certainly love for that to be, but I don't think so at this point, unless they have a lot more than we know about.

But it may be another link to move them a little bit closer to a identifying someone. CARLSON: Mr. Safir, I hate to ask you to speculate once again, but if I could ask you to speculate, we're looking at pictures of the backyard of a duplex in Tacoma, Washington. So far away from where we are here in Washington, D.C.

Do you have any sense of how the police could wind up from the beltway all the way on the other side of the country? What could have lead them there? Evidence from the letter, phone calls, what do you think?

SAFIR: It could be evidence from the letter. It could be a finger print taken off some piece of evidence. It could be somebody who has given information that is credible to get enough probably cause for a warrant.

I mean, it really is speculation, but certainly it is a serious effort and they wouldn't be putting all of these resources into this if they did not think that it was going to further the investigation.

BEGALA: And in fact, Mr. Clark, we are glad because everybody get to see these kind of resources being brought to bear. But let me also kind of bring us back to get your veteran perspective as a law enforcement officer. Even if this is just a false lead, it is helpful for the investigators, is it not, for them to at least be able cross off the list something even if none of this that we're watching live in Tacoma, Washington, pans out .

CLARK: That is absolutely correct. Sometimes elimination in an investigation is as key as finding another piece of actual evidence because then you can direct your attention to something else.

It's just like eliminating suspects in a case. You can direct your attention now on to some other aspect of the case.

But the key here is that we've talked about this evidence and where it goes and what's it going to do. This is so important, and this is why I think the American public needs to be so assured that the command structure and the body that's running this operation has that ability to be able to exercise and do all of these things across the continent and maybe across the world, even if I don't necessarily think that it might be terrorist connected.

But what if it is? Then you still need that organizational structure there to be able to bring this together. I think that's very key to this investigation.

BEGALA: Well, we come back Commissioner Safir to the question, of the FBI (UNINTELIGIBLE). As we watch, federal agents, we now know conducting a search in Tacoma, Washington, doesn't this just mean that just de facto it's become a federal investigation, even if we don't call it that?

SAFIR: No, it means that the resources of the federal government are being utilized as the president directed. And I don't see that any jurisdiction has changed at this point. CARLSON: OK, Mike Brooks in Atlanta, you've worked in joint task forces between federal and with the FBI and local law enforcement. Is it even possible to have an investigation like this without the aid of a federal agency like the FIB?

BROOKS: Well, that's one of the reasons task forces were put together. The FBI realizes that they need the help of the state and local law enforcement in conducting any task, any cases, whether it be organized crime, terrorism, or murder investigations like this. And the locals are glad to bring in the FBI to get their resources and some of their funding, to handle large cases such as this.

So I think they -- we work together very well. We've seen an increase in the number of different task forces across the country that the FBI runs. ATF also over the years has had task forces. U.S. Marshals Service has also had a number of task forces to try to arrest large numbers of fugitives.

So I think what we're seeing here is the federal and the state and local working hand in hand. And in this particular case you see some people in uniform. You see and as we know, that there are some federal agents here working.

So there we have again the local crime scene search officers working with the FBI evidence response teams and the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, as somebody who has -- I have no background in law enforcement -- I want to draw on your vast expertise in it, the FBI will be briefing shortly, and CNN of course will carry that live, when they do, will they hold some of their cards close to their vest? Or are they likely to tell us everything that they've learned from this search that we're watching live from Tacoma, Washington?

SAFIR: I think they will let you know enough information that it does not affect the outcome of the case. If it is something that is going to hurt the investigation, they're not going to release it.

I was a federal agent for 26 years before I became police commissioner. I've been on both sides, and I know that the issue is that you release as little information as is going to satisfy the press, but not jeopardize the investigation.

CARLSON: Now, Don Clark, people in Washington have been saying for the last couple of days, Gee, you know, authorities have the note, apparently that the sniper left, a couple of notes. Why not make those public so that the public can recognize the handwriting for instance, or details in the notes? What do you think of that?

CLARK: Well, I think it has some merit to it. But the key in my experience and being involved in some of these investigations is that the command structure, the decision-making body, has to really figure out what can they release to the public that's going to enhance the investigation, whether it's identifying handwriting, or whether it's maybe a voice exemplar, or something of that nature, whatever it might be.

If I can release it to the public, it doesn't detract from the investigation. It does not violate any of the evidence rules that you've got to follow. And it's going to help. Then let it out to the public if it's going to help you bring something to justice here.

But I don't think that you should make that decision in a vacuum. And I don't think you should make that decision just saying, Oh, boy, we're going to get public comments back from it. Because you might just generate a lot of other tips. And you might tip off the wrong person. You should carefully assess it to see if it's going to benefit your investigation.

CARLSON: Speaking of the note, apparently the last note had a demand in it for $10 million, money that was to be wired into an account. Do you think it's even plausible, Mr. Clark, that the FBI would send $10 million to a bank account?

CLARK: Well, I think the FBI and I hope any other agency that's involved in a negotiation process, and that's what this really boils down to, that they're going to be very earnest brokers. And they're going to try to work with the person that they're talking to to figure out how best can they do this type of activity.

And they may prepare this activity, and this amount of money or whatever the case may be. But they are focused on trying to identify this person, trying to bring this person to justice. And I think they'll take whatever actions that they need to to try and make that happen. And that decision, I can't make sitting here. But I can tell you there will be a lot of thought about whatever it is when you've got a person like this that's roaming around shooting people.

However, I think this $10 million is a little bit off the cuff for somebody that's committing this kind of crime.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, we've learned now that Tacoma police, they're on the scene, are also assisting in the investigation along with federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents and FBI agents, having been both -- a federal law enforcement official and the commissioner of the New York City police department, isn't there going to be inevitable tension in this kind of a high stakes, high stress investigation and the sort of search that we're now watching live as they have heavy machinery and other equipment there in Tacoma, Washington.

SAFIR: My experience has been just the opposite. In the kind of investigations that involve the possible loss of human life is that everybody takes their bars and stars off, and they work very closely together.

I've seen turf battles in other kinds of investigations. But when it comes to homicide investigations, everybody pulls together has been my experience.

BEGALA: That's certainly good to hear. CARLSON: OK, Mike Brooks, we just learned that a tree stump has been loaded on to the back of a truck by a back hoe. Is this the kind of meaningless detail that kind of floats off into the footnotes of history? Is this significant? How could it be significant, a tree stump?

BROOKS: I don't know. It could -- they also could be, since they cut the tree down, they could just be removing it. You know, maybe somebody would want it for firewood. They could just be taking it out of the way...

CARLSON: A little landscaping?

BROOKS: Exactly. It could just be getting it out of the way. You know, so we don't know. I'm just looking at the pictures here, and it's kind of hard to tell from this vantage point. And hopefully we'll hear something from the FBI soon.

You were talking about the letter earlier and whether they should put out the different notes. We go back to the Unibomber case and Ted Kaczynski where it was -- law enforcement not making the decisions, as Don said, in a vacuum, decided to go ahead and release the manifesto. And it was wound up by releasing the manifesto, Ted Kaczynski's brother recognized the writing style, and basically turned his brother in.

So it's a fine line to draw on deciding what to put out and what not to put out.

BEGALA: Let me ask Don Clark then to follow-up on that. Nobody wants to second guess cops as they're doing their job. And we so admire the work that they're doing. They're trying to save lives out there. But at the same time, isn't is useful to put a little pressure? The FBI will be briefing soon. Journalists doing their job, trying to draw more information that may be able to help people realize who this is.

Somebody knows this killer, right? And if we put out, say things like that letter, they may recognize the handwriting or the syntax and turn in the killer.

CLARK: Well, I'm a believer in these types of cases, this one, the rail car killer in Texas here, and other types of cases that we've had is that this is where we can really draw from the public. And I'm also a believer that the media can really help in that.

I don't think though that the investigation should necessarily be targeted at what can I give the media to put out to the public? What can I satisfy the media with?

I don't think that should be the focus at all. I think what should be the focus is what we best do to solve this investigation and making sure that we're putting the exact information out there that might trigger something that's going to help us solve the case?

So I don't look at is as let's just feed the media something. Let's figure out what's best served for this investigation. And this one is an extremely serious one. And that takes -- that brings about a lot of tension.

BEGALA: And let me ask Commissioner Safir then, to try to resolve the tension, as a layman, help be out here, why are we telling the killer what kind of surveillance planes we're using to spy on him, but we're not telling his neighbors or maybe even relatives what his handwriting looks like?

I don't understand why we releasing what we're releasing.

SAFIR: Well, I Know that he joint command in Montgomery County, which is all of the agencies involved, sit down and very carefully decide what they're going to release and what they're not going to release. And of course, we can only speculate on what the motivation is behind it. But second guessing, I don't think, is very helpful.

I think the reality is that you have some of the best law enforcement people in the country working on this. And they're making very careful decisions on what to release and what not to release.

BEGALA: OK, gentlemen, we have a studio filled with people here from the Washington, D.C. area and we're going to take a question from one of them -- a member of our audience.

Yes, ma'am? Yes, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I am Stephanie Winkler (ph) from Boca Raton, Florida. And if this situation in Tacoma, Washington does lead the police to evidence in the sniper attacks, do you think the media is essentially giving the sniper a heads up that we are close to catching him or her?

CARLSON: Mike Brooks, what do you think about that? I mean is there -- when you talk to law enforcement officials, do they worry that the press is helping -- unwittingly helping the sniper?

BROOKS: We -- I think we have it. They do worry a little bit about that, but right now, you know, they're not making any effort to block the scene. You know, they could put up tarps and those kind of things. So I don't think they're making any effort to hide what they're doing.

But -- and when they come out and say exactly what they have found, if anything, they'll be very calculated and not giving up too much information to make sure that the shooter, who we know is listening to the press, that he is not given, he, she, they are not given too much information.

CARLSON: Mr. Safir, there's been a lot of talk about how the press might be helping the sniper, unintentionally, of course. I wonder though, on the law enforcement side, if cops are ever hesitant to use the press in the way that they do. Is there ever hand ringing on the law enforcement side, you know? Maybe we shouldn't be using the press they way we do? SAFIR: Well it is a balance. But right here I think it is clear that the best way to communicate with the sniper right now is through the media. And, you know, this is like a hostage negotiation and Chief Moose is the communicator. And as the communicator he has to use the press to get his message to the sniper.

BEGALA: And, Don Clark, I'm sure that you're familiar with times, maybe in your own career, when law enforcement has asked the press not to release something. Not because it's false, but because true. It could hinder the investigation. Are you aware of cases like that from your own experience?

CLARK: Certainly I've had cases like that and I've had pretty good success with it. As a matter of fact I can say I've had good success when the media has come and said, Look, we know -- we have some information about one thing or the other. And you can sit down and talk to them.

I don't think we ought to paint this picture that it's an us against them type of thing. I suspect that we're all interested in trying to identify who this person may be. It's very important for the law enforcement community to protect what they feel is necessary for the conclusion -- successful conclusion to this case.

And I think they should try and get whatever else they can out to the media. I think the media's going to do everything it can to get try to get what information that it can. But don't leak it. If it's evidence, if it's crucial to the investigation, don't leak it, keep it to yourselves and go on about your investigative business.

With this thing out in Washington right now, I'm sure that they could have done a lot of things to really deceive what was really taking place out there as opposed to just exposing it and it immediately become knowledgeable. So obviously somebody said, This is not that significant to us.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Safir, for law enforcement agency is the potential of panicking the public a major concern? For instance, if you knew there that was suggestion this was some kind of conspiracy, possibly terrorism, would you keep that information to yourself for fear of scaring the public?

SAFIR: I think you have to balance the danger to the public and whether or not making the public aware of is going to help safeguard them. And I think that's the balance that you have to have with the media and what you release.

I have found that in most cases if you tell the media not to say something, they've been acting fairly responsibly. On the other hand, you don't want to unnecessarily panic somebody. But it's just like the case of a serial rapist, if the public's going to be in danger, you want to let the community know that there's a serial rapist out there.

BEGALA: Mike Brooks, if you're still with us -- thank you for staying through all of this -- we're watching them now sweep with metal detectors. It looks like there's some kind of tape or grid down there. What's the process that we're watching there as they search for clues in Tacoma, Washington, the other side of the continent from where the shootings took place?

BOOKS: Well what they do, the evidence technicians, the evidence response team and now we know both local and federal agents, get to the scene. They will set up a game plan, see exactly what they're going to do. They'll decide to go ahead and grid it off. They'll get ground positioning GPS readings on the whole yard, they stake it out. Set up the yellow tape as we see in the pictures right now and then they'll start methodically.

They'll take a look, they'll photograph the area before they start. They'll come in. They'll do a sweep with, first of all, visual check of the area to see if there are any anomalies, you know, any bumps, any sinking areas that someone maybe has dug up the area and the ground has settled. That a lot of times you will find if people dig it up, over time, it will settle. They'll look for anything visually.

Then they'll go ahead, and we see now, with a metal detector. They will use the metal detector to go through, see if there is any surface metal. They can set -- there's different settings you can use on the metal detector for different sensitivity levels. They will go back and forth, look for anything they have there. Then they will go over, most likely, with the ground penetrating radar looking for any anomalies under the surface of the backyard there.

BEGALA: Mr. Safir, in your long experience, are cases like this usually solved by consistent police work or are they usually broken open by a single break in the case, for instance, in the Unabomber case where his brother came forward.

SAFIR: My experience has been that it's usually a bit of luck, some good old-fashioned detective work. We had the Zodiac Killer in New York, two and a half years after he committed his last murder. He was arrested in a domestic incident. He was giving a statement, he put a Zodiac sign on the side of the statement. The detective who worked on the case just happened to be there, he recognized it and we solved the case.

BEGALA: Well, Don Clark, that's -- congratulations to good police work on Commissioner Safir's part in the NYPD. But that sounds like leaving an awful lot to chance. I mean, for example I know for instance that law enforcement caught Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, because he was driving without a rear license plate. David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam mass murderer, was caught because of parking tickets. Do we just have to, in addition to all of this effort, just wait for blind luck like that?

CLARK: No, I don't think so. You make your luck, you make your breaks. You make your breaks by law enforcement people getting out there and doing exactly what they know to do, start from the beginning of a crime and work their way through it. And if you don't get evidence there, you start over again and you keep repeating that. You use all these things that's available to you, to include the media here and hope that some information can get out. That you can draw some information from the public out there that may add to you solving this case. But it's not going to be just blind luck. It's going to be that you're going to make that luck by the time of investigation and your strategy that you developed.

You just can't fly off with things. You've got to develop a strategy and look what your options may be. Prioritize them and try to follow that process to get you to your conclusion.

CARLSON: Mike Brooks, just a procedural question based on the pictures we're looking at here from Tacoma, Washington, a lot of guy in hard hats and philson (ph) trousers, et cetera. Are they all on staff for the FBI? Does the FBI have its own digging crews on hand? Or who are these people?

BROOKS: No these people look like fire department personnel from Washington. They will bring them in. Again the FBI and local police don't have some of the heavy equipment you know, the saws and that kind of thing. They're going to call in other resources also. We've used -- we use the fire department and other resources on cases I've worked in the past to assist and that what it looks like. These are firefighters that are on the scene assisting with some of their equipment that they have also.

CARLSON: So when the FBI comes into a town like Tacoma, they can create an all hands on deck so any municipal employee whose capable of doing a job can be drafted to do it? Is that the way it works?

BROOKS: Well there's mutual aid agreements and those kind of things. And in this case, if they do have a warrant and they do need some assistance, they call on them very regularly. And the fire department always responds.

Numerous times if we needed, let's say, an extra battering ram to serve a search warrant, I'd go over to the firehouse and say, Hey can I use one of you battering rams. They'd be more than happy to loan us a battering ram or halogen bar or anything else we need to do our job.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, I'm guessing here that we would not be watching these from Tacoma, Washington if the local and federal law enforcement officials didn't want us to, right?

If they had wanted to they could have interrupted -- sightlines moved in. Trucks or tarps or ask people to ground their helicopters. Our affiliate KING is getting these pictures for us. My guess is that law enforcement probably sees some utility in broadcasting these pictures. What do you think?

SAFIR: I think that's correct. I think that if we did not want you to see, then law enforcement -- we would have created a frozen zone around the area. that would have caused a lot of speculation. But you still wouldn't have seen the pictures.

CARLSON: OK, we're going to continue our coverage now of this breaking story with Connie Chung in New York -- Connie.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

in Tacoma Scene of Major Search>

Aired October 23, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. Sniper on the loose. In the CROSSFIRE: second guessing in the sniper investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: We're trying to be very thoughtful about everything that we do here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, questions about who should be in charge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Let's put somebody from the federal government in charge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNER: So when will they catch him?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If not today, then tomorrow. If not tomorrow, then the next day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Using scare tactics to get votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Think the candidates are playing rough where you live? You ain't seen nothing yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Bush and the Republicans still want to push their (UNINTELLIGIBLE) through Congress. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: We're looking over the best, funniest and dirtiest political ads of 2002.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, you asked and we heard you. Not only we will get back to politics on tonight's show, we are going to show you some of the best political ads of the year. But the fact of the matter is we cannot ignore the D.C. sniper investigation, it is just too big a story. So we will begin tonight at the Montgomery County Police headquarters and CNN's Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf, what's the latest from there?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the latest, Paul, is that we were expecting the Montgomery County Police Chief, Charles Moose, to emerge around one hour or so ago and say something. We had been told in advance that he would make a statement, not answer reporters questions, but only a few moments ago, one of his deputies, Montgomery County Captain Nancy Demi (ph), emerged to apologize to reporters, saying there have been some developments they need to focus on. They'll get back to us when there's something to say.

But right now, nothing to say. I don't want to speculate what may or may not have happened over the course of the last hour. We probably will find out eventually. But, right now, they're not planning on saying anything to reporters.

Earlier in the day, the police chief, accompanied by FBI and ATF agents, as well as others, did say they are trying to move this investigation forward. And the police chief uttered an appeal to immigrants who may be living in this part of the country and who may have seen something at yesterday's shooting in nearby Silver Spring, Maryland. The police chief did say, yes, some of those immigrants may have illegal status, but he insisted that was not something the local police were interested in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOOSE: When we have federal law enforcement officials involved in the investigation, perhaps some of our immigrant community members feel like there would be some problem for them because of their status or some questions with regards to their status, if they come forward. So, we hope that is not the case, but if that is the case, we want to stress that that is not our interest in this matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Later, the commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, James Eagler (ph), said that those people who come forward legal or illegal people will be eligible for the reward, the half a million dollar reward, if in fact they provide information that is useful to this investigation. Also, he noted that people -- illegal people here in the United States who help law enforcement are eligible to change their status and become legal residents -- Paul, Tucker.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Wolf, are there any other developments in the case? I know there was a white van stopped earlier today out on I-270. There was a letter that was found the other day. Do we have any more information on its contents? Is there anything else going on in the investigation?

BLITZER: Well, there are several things going on. As far as that white box truck that was spotted driving up Interstate 270 North, heading north of us from where we are right now, a bus driver, a Montgomery school bus driver with kids on board, said she spotted someone aboard a white box truck that apparently had a weapon. She thought that the two people in that truck were aiming that weapon. She reported that to police.

The police did shut down Interstate 270 for some time. They've reopened it since. No word on whether they spotted anyone or not or what precisely happened. But there was a brief scare there for some time. As far as letters are concerned, we have confirmed here at CNN that police did find a second letter that was left at the site yesterday in Aspen Hills section of Montgomery County with some more words presumably from this sniper.

They're not releasing the actual letter. Although, the police chief is saying that they're leaving that open if in fact that might help the subsequent investigation -- Paul.

BEGALA: Wolf, thank you very much for that report.

And, of course, later in our program tonight we're going to have more on the sniper. We'll talk to two of the country's most respected law enforcement minds. But, as we started, ever mindful that we're just 13 days from deciding which party will control the Congress, it is time for us to begin with our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Maryland Governor Paris Glendening today said he is considering ordering the Maryland National Guard to help protect voters if the Washington-area sniper hasn't been caught by Election Day. Meanwhile, the White House says that President Bush will not order the FBI to take the leading role in the investigation, saying that it is better to run the investigation by what the White House termed "a joint command."

Critics point out that a multi-jurisdictional murder spree involving more than a dozen agencies needs a centralized command, but consider the FBI's track record under Louis Freeh and Ken Starr, they assigned hundreds of agents to look into President Clinton's private life, that took them eight years and $80 million to discover that he likes women. So, Chief Moose, it's up to you. God bless you. CARLSON: Notice that Paris Glendening orders the National Guard to protect polling places and not schools. I speak for everyone in Maryland when I say I'm just glad he's not going to be governor any longer.

The talk of the sniper has, of course, dominated television news in recent days. So it was probably inevitable that the Fox news channel would reach out to the serial killer community for informed comment. The job fell to Fox correspondent, Rita Cosby, who has some experience in that field.

A couple of years ago, Cosby wrote a notably warm letter to mass murderer Timothy McVeigh, "Dear, Tim," she began, "I believe you have many important insights." She ended by promising, "I will fight for your rights."

Now, Cosby has turned her considerable affections to son of Sam killer, David Berkowitz, who is currently in prison for murdering six people. "Your personal story and spiritual growth inspired me to write to you," Cosby gushed in a recent note to Berkowitz. "Not only do I want you to come on Fox," Cosby said, "but god does too."

"The lord calls on individuals at various times to serve him and serve his people. I believe as a Christian, your help is a great service. You have a testimony that must be heard. Our world is crying and you can help." Berkowitz, apparently an ardent Fox viewer, wrote back to thank Cosby for "the kind things you said."

BEGALA: It's not right just to suggest that god wants a mass murderer to go on television. Of course, god watches CNN, anyway, he told me so today.

Well, "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post," along with the "Wall Street Journal," have all run lengthy page-long stories recently detailing the many times that our president has, well, let's just say stretch the truth.

"The Washington Post," for example, notes that Mr. Bush's claim that Iraq has unmanned aircraft that can attack America is simply untrue. Mr. Bush also claimed that the International Atomic Energy Agency has reported that Saddam Hussein was only six months away from the nuclear weapon.

False, the IAEA says. There's no such report. Same with Bush's claim that unionized emergency workers refuse to use radiation detectors. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) couldn't even pass a lie detector test.

So, out of respect for the presidency, I don't want to use words like, "lie" and "liar," so help me out. E-mail me at crossfire@cnn.com with your euphemisms for Mr. Bush's many falsehoods. Creativity and cleanliness count. We will have more Bush mendacity tomorrow night.

CARLSOLN: Actually, they did refuse to wear radiation detectors. They just don't currently refuse. But this is one of those, what's the definition of "is" questions I think. Mike Taylor is back in the race. The Montana Republican has announced that he will resume his bid to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Democratic Senator, Max Baucus. Taylor dropped out of the campaign a couple weeks ago after Democrats released a television spot that all but accused him of being gay. The spot opened with footage of Taylor, a former hairdresser, dressed in tight '70s disco clothing and massaging another man's face.

Gay rights groups, and at least one Democratic legislator complained, but the barrage continued. The latest assault comes from the Democratic Party of Montana. It's a leaflet sent to voters statewide attacking Taylor. On the cover is a female impersonator dressed in a pink stole and a red wig.

Democrats say the Taylor campaign are "taking advantage of the stereotype of men who work in the hair care profession." But they are no longer dealing with impunity. Mike Taylor is back.

BEGALA: God bless him. No, the problem with Taylor -- we'll get to this later. We'll show the ad. The problem with Taylor is he was allegedly bilking the federal government out of $160,000 in school loans. And that's what that ad's about. But we'll watch it ourselves later in this program.

Campaigns, you know, are not very often won in one debate. Candidates tend to be very well prepared, they're well scripted and they do their utmost to avoid even the slightest mistake. But this week's New Hampshire Senate debate could prove decisive.

Republican Congressman John Sununu was confronted by Democratic Governor Jeanne Shaheen over Sununu's support for a flat tax, which, among many other things, would end the home mortgage interest deduction for home owners.

Sununu countered by saying, "We have to be willing to say no to the special interests wherever they may be." John Sununu thinks New Hampshire homeowners are just another special interest. Too bad he didn't feel that way a year ago this week, when he voted for a quarter of a Billion dollar tax rebate for the crooks at Enron.

CARLSON: Actually, I saw that debate, and the Libertarian won. But John Sununu came in a strong second and just steam rolled and crushed poor Governor Shaheen, which is why I think he's going to win in the end, thank heaven.

History has reached a verdict this week. It comes in the form of Bartlett's familiar quotations. The university (UNINTELLIGIBLE) encyclopedia of historically significant quotes. The 17th edition of Bartlett's just went on sale. It contains three new quotations from former President Bill Clinton, all of them dishonest.

You may recognize them. "I didn't inhale," "I did not have sexual relations with that woman," and, "It depends on the meaning of the word 'is'." There you have it. Eight years of speeches, statements, press conferences, radio addresses and endless unscripted remarks, close to a decade of full (UNINTELLIGIBLE) non-stop yapping boiled down to its essence: three embarrassing throw away lines.

It's sort of sad, if you think about it. And of course totally fitting. According to Bartlett's the only significant words that came out of the Clinton years came not from Clinton himself, but from a certain squinting, balding southern strategist who once pointed out that "It's the economy, stupid." And that's it. The Shakespeare of the Clinton era.

BEGALA: This is what's telling about Republicans. They get upset if Democrats lie about sex, but they think it is fine for President Bush to lie about a war. Which is more important?

CARLSON: It never added up to anything. It's sad, its poignant. I feel bad about it.

BEGALA: Ever so slowly, politics is beginning to creep into the sniper investigation. Senator John McCain today told CNN That if he were president, he would put the FBI in charge of the sniper investigation.

In a minute, we'll ask our guests whether Chief Moose should pull the plug and give up the podium.

And later tonight, we're going to go hunting for some of the year's best ads.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hunt because my daddy hunted. He hunted because his daddy hunted...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Well, we'll see if any of those ads are really on target, coming up soon. Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

The White House says that 1,300 federal law enforcement personnel are helping with the sniper investigation. But the Feds will not be taking over. So who is in charge here and who should be?

In Los Angeles is former New York City Police Commissioner, Howard Safir. And in Houston, former FBI Special Agent, Don Clark. Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us.

CARLSON: Mr. Clark, we learned something remarkable in the last 24 hours. Apparently the sniper called in to a special hotline five time, or at least five times over the past week or so and was hung up on at least once by an employee of the FBI who thought he was crazy. As if the sniper wouldn't be crazy.

Can you explain how this happened? Is this a major mistake? Is this the kind of thing that happens a lot? What do you make of it?

DON CLARK, FMR. FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, Paul, first of all, if this is what the sniper is saying, I think we have to take that in context. If this is in fact the sniper who is calling. When those hotlines go off, there are a number of things that are taking place now.

I don't think anybody that's been a part of any organization would make any excuse for someone that's hanging up on a person. I think the right thing to do is to make sure you can get as much information as you possibly can, if this did in fact happen. Then I think somebody ought to be taken the task (ph) for it.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, let me bring you into this. You ran the largest law enforcement agency in the country outside of our Feds. We now have 13 different agencies and 1,300 different officials working on this. Don't you think we should put the FBI in charge? Well, first, actually, let me show you what John McCain said when he was asked that question on CNN this afternoon. And then I'll ask you to respond. Here is Senator McCain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: If I were president of the United States -- and I never contemplate such a thing, as you know -- I would probably announce the appointment of some very high level respected law enforcement individual to take over this entire operation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Mr. Commissioner, isn't Senator McCain right? We need one person in charge, and that person should be from the federal government?

HOWARD SAFIR, FMR. NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: I disagree. This is a state and local matter. We need the resources of the FBI, we need the resources of ATF, Secret Service, other agencies. But I think Chief Moose is doing a credible job.

He is the visible force that is now dealing with the perpetrator. I don't think we should change horses at this time. And I don't think that there is anything to suggest that an FBI agent is any more competent than a seasoned homicide investigator in dealing with this kind of crime.

CARLSON: Mr. Clark, there was news today that officials pulled over a white box truck on a highway outside of Washington, closed the highway down for a while after that. This has happened before. White trucks have been pulled over all over this region. Of course, the two hapless illegal aliens got pulled over in their white truck down in Virginia. Could the sniper really be driving a white box truck still after all of this? He watches television. What do you think the likelihood is he is still driving a car like that?

CLARK: Well, I don't think you've got to look at it in that perspective. I think what you look at is what the evidence that they have at their hands. They have to be acting and responding to whatever evidence and the amount of evidence that they have.

They just can't make a subjective guess that, well, he's probably not driving this. But if that's the information that you've got, that's what you got to go with. And then you work from here. And I think that's what they're doing. So they said a white van, let's look for white vans.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, let me ask you about our press secretary at the White House today. Ari Fleischer listed in terrific detail, the federal assets that are being deployed here. And I am glad to know that our White House is doing everything they can. But they went through -- I mean some of the things that Ari told us, 454 federal agents, 59 inspectors, how many ATF analysts, two A-star helicopters, a Blackhawk helicopter. He went on and on.

Doesn't this give the killer a road map when we tell him what resources we're deploying against him? Wouldn't it be better if we just said we're doing all we can and then shut up?

SAFIR: Well, I think part of this is to reassure the public. I mean, the fact is, that because of the randomness of this perpetrator and the fact that he has caused so much terror, not just in the Washington, D.C. area, but throughout the United States, I think this is the administration's way of trying to reassure the public that they're doing everything possible.

Because they're as frustrated as the law enforcement officials are in dealing with a killer who has no pattern, who, unlike other serial killers, apparently has no relationship whatsoever or any targets other than targets of opportunity. And the randomness of this is what causes such terror.

BEGALA: If I could press that point, though, chief, just a few days after we were told by the government that they were deploying a special surveillance plane from the Pentagon to survey the Washington, D.C. area, the sniper left the Washington, D.C. area and murdered someone in Virginia outside of Richmond. Doesn't that give him kind of a road map when we reveal the kind of assets we are using?

SAFIR: Well I think that's what is so insidious about this perpetrator, which is that as soon as we think there is a pattern, he changes it. And that's what's going to make it so difficult to capture him, which is why, more than likely, he is going to be captured because somebody knows him or he makes a stupid mistake, like the son of Sam.

CARLSON: OK. Mr. Safir, Mr. Clark, if you could just hold on for a moment. We'll take a quick break, and we're going to be back in just a second. There's a new development in the sniper story. Connie Chung will bring us a live update in just a moment.

And then, we'll ask our guests if Chief Moose should stay behind his desk and away from the cameras. And, later, they may or may not be the whole truth, but they're sure fun to watch. Stay tuned for the year's best political ads. We have them. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

There has been a development in the D.C.-area sniper case. We will go live to Connie Chung in New York for an update -- Connie.

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, I'm Connie Chung in New York. We have late developments in the Washington sniper case. In Seattle, Washington, CNN affiliates are reporting that police are searching a backyard in Tacoma, Washington, and that somehow it is related to the Washington-area sniper case.

CNN is working on the story, and as soon as we have more information on it, we'll give it to you. In the meantime, Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose has said that police were looking for the D.C. sniper or continuing to and he was going to hold a meeting with reporters.

We were assuming that what he was going to tell us was that he had another message for the supposed sniper. However, that news conference has been delayed because of "developments" in the case.

Also today, the INS says illegal immigrants will not be prosecuted or helped out of the country if they give information that might be helpful in the sniper case.

So, once again, CNN affiliates in Seattle, Washington are reporting that police are searching a backyard in the Tacoma, Washington, area and that somehow it is related to the Washington sniper case. CNN crews are working on the story and we will continue to bring you information on it.

We're looking at some pictures out there in Seattle. This was with our affiliate KING. We don't know what these details are just yet, but we'll bring them to you as soon as we have information. Back to CROSSFIRE, and be sure to join us on "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" at 8:00 Eastern Time.

CARLSON: Thanks, Connie.

OK. We are back with Don Clark and Howard Safir in New York. Mr. Safir, it sounds like we know very few details, but we do know there is some sort of investigation going on in Washington state. Does this imply to you something larger than just a single psychopath?

SAFIR: It doesn't at this point. It may be a communication from the sniper to somehow come up with some credibility. It may be based on some kind of weapon's trace, or it may really have nothing to do with it.

BEGALA: Let me ask Don Clark. As a veteran FBI agent, what do you suppose is actually going on, on the ground there? What goes into an operation like this? They're in -- outside of Seattle, Washington in Tacoma, Washington, searching for clues on the other side of the country. Why might that be? CLARK: Well, I'll tell you one thing it shows us all is that our world has become smaller and smaller. So just because something is going on in Maryland, D.C., Virginia area, that does not mean that there is not some connection in one way or another to some activity across the country from us.

So there again in lies what we talked about earlier, is that we're talking about evidence, we're talking about information that comes through, and follow that information. And if it takes you out to Seattle, then let them figure out what is going on out there.

BEGALA: I wonder, Commissioner Safir, as somebody who has run a local police department, doesn't this suggest that maybe the point of fact the Feds are really running things? I mean Chief Moose is not going to be able to order an investigation on the other side of the continent.

SAFIR: Well, anybody who is involved in an investigation like this realizes that the FBI has the kind of resources to deal in another jurisdiction. But I have often called other jurisdictions as the New York City police commissioner and generated activity in places all over the country. In fact, all over the world.

CARLSON: I'd like to bring in Mike Brooks, who is a CNN security analyst. He joins us from the CNN center in Atlanta. Mike, what do you make of this? Does this sound like the beginning of a larger story unfolding? What do you think this is?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, we know for sure, Tucker, that this is connected with the shootings in the Washington metropolitan area and Montgomery County. We are talking about the FBI's role in this. Under Title 28 of the U.S. code, the FBI has opened up a serial murder case on this particular case, which means, you now murder, as we know, is not a federal crime, unless it is committed on a military reservation, it is involved in organized crime, some other things.

But the FBI, as Don was saying -- the FBI can bring their resources into this. But any search warrants, anything else has to be applied for by the locals. So, in this case, though, the FBI, they are assisting. What we're seeing on the ground here right now, you see the area, you see the yellow tape the way the area is gridded off.

What they're doing right now, you see one person going over the area with what looks to be a metal detector. What they do here -- I was a member of the FBI's evidence response team when I was on the FBI's joint terrorism task force in Washington, D.C. And we used to go out and look for evidence.

What they're doing is they're most likely looking for a piece of evidence. I am told they're not looking for a body, but they are looking for some evidence that may be back behind this building.

The yellow tape, the way they have it gridded off, it is the first stages of probably -- then they'll go back with the metal detector, then they'll go use ground penetrating radar, which will show any anomalies under the surface of the ground. If this evidence they're looking for, which most likely is made of metal, the metal detector will be able to detect it if it's close to the surface. If not, they have it gridded off like that to use the ground penetrating radar. And it's a great help...

BEGALA: Mike, this is Paul Begela. I'm told that Kelli Arena, who is our Justice Correspondent in our Washington bureau, has even more breaking information on the story. Kelli, what have you got?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, we have been able to confirm that, in fact, law enforcement sources tell us that search warrants are indeed being executed, as we can see, in Tacoma, Washington. And definitely in relation to the sniper investigation.

But the sources also point out that there have been other search warrants executed as part of this investigation that have not panned out. The results of leads that have come in that needed to be followed up on. This one obviously being taken seriously.

But they caution that this may not turn up any evidence because they have been here before, perhaps not as dramatically, and have come up empty. But, obviously, as Mike was saying, someone had to get a search warrant. In fact, we have learned, yes, indeed, there were search warrants executed and that is one of the reasons the press conference here in Washington was possibly delayed or is not happening, as they're waiting for the results of this search.

CARLSON: OK. Kelli Arena -- thanks, Kelli.

Don Clark, does this -- I mean it sounds to me like the FBI is looking for multiple people. And if that's true, do they suspect some kind of conspiracy or terrorism? What do you make of it?

CLARK: You know I don't know if they're looking for multiple people. I think they're looking for a package. They're really looking for a strategy.

They're developing a strategy to just take a look at everything that they can and let the evidence dictate what it is that they might be looking for. The fact that they're out in Washington, D.C. does not at all indicate to me that they're looking at some type of mass conspiracy. Because it may just very well be a contact that's out there.

But I really do think that they have to follow these leads. And I certainly don't know what leads that have been followed up to this point. There may have been other activities that's going on. However, I doubt if there's been a search that's taken place, or I suspect we probably would have known. But I know that that search took place because they had enough probable cause to get a search warrant.

BEGALA: And, in fact, Commissioner Safir, you've got to help those of us who have no background in law enforcement here. My guess is that there are probably thousands of leads that don't pan out. And our viewers, of course, and CNN's going to stay on top of this, but they see this and maybe we have to be careful about getting hopes up too high too soon. What do you think?

SAFIR: I think that's right. I think there's been 17,000 calls already. And you know you have to follow every lead, but most leads turn out not to be related.

CARLSON: Now, Mike Brooks in Atlanta, tell me. You said that you have been on evidence-gathering assignments like this when you worked for the FBI. When you run a metal detector in someone's backyard, looking for, as you put it, metal objects, what do you mean? What kind of metal objects are you looking for?

BROOKS: Well, let's cut to the chase. Most likely they're looking for a weapon, from what I'm hearing from my sources. So that's most likely what they're looking for and that's what they got the warrant for most likely. And it's easy to do if it's close to the surface.

Now again, as everyone is saying, they have done other search warrants. They did a search warrant down in Virginia that came up empty. They are doing a search warrant out here now and looking for some possible evidence.

But we can't lay the whole case on this one particular lead. This is another lead that they are following up on. It may go no where. There have been many leads as the commissioner was saying, that have gone nowhere in this particular case.

CARLSON: Right, but this is a lead -- of course, true -- but this is a lead that appears to entail a back hoe judging by the live pictures we have up.

BROOKS: Right.

CARLSON: I mean, what does that say to you? I mean, if you're looking for a single handgun, I mean, can we read anything into the fact they have a bulldozer on the scene?

BROOKS: Well, again, that's what I was talking about. They'll run the metal detector, then the ground penetrating radar. Depending upon on deep this particular evidence is they're looking for, that's why they have the back hoe there. And you know, they'll run it over, look over it, look to see if there are any anomalies there. And start digging if they do see something. Then they'll make the grid a little bit smaller because they can tell by looking at the ground, at the image from the ground penetrating radar whether or not there is something there. Then they'll use the back hoe to dig it up.

BEGALA: Well, Don Clark are we safe at least in assuming that there is some -- you have mentioned before -- probable cause when you bring these sort of resources to bear in something that's this high profile. Does this maybe suggest to you that this is more than just one of those thousands of leads that don't ever pan out?

CLARK: Well, I certainly think it's more than one of those just thousands of leads that don't pan out because again, it takes probably cause to get a search warrant. No judge is going to sign off on something because someone believes, no matter how sinister the crime may be.

So a judge has signed off on this. So there has to be something in there that gets them out to that part of the country and start doing the activities that there are. There is something there that they're looking for. Whether it pans out and attaches itself to this is one thing. But the probable cause is at least there at this point.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Safir, you can see in the pictures we have up a grid on the ground. As we said there's heavy equipment involved. How long does it take to put together this kind of operation that the FBI has put together? Could they do this in a day? Have they been working on this for a week?

SAFIR: They could do it in an hour. And we don't know whether the FBI or the local police, but either one of them could put it together very quickly. I mean, there's nothing terribly sophisticated about tape, a metal detector, a back hoe and you get a hold of a -- the ground penetrating radar -- is available in a lot of places.

BEGALA: Mr. Clark, one of the reasons that the press has been covering this so aggressively, is not just that people care about it, but we've been told my law enforcement that will people will call in with more tips. And that helps the investigation.

Is this also maybe one of the ways it may hinder it, that now these cops are having to do their job, difficult enough as it is, with live cameras covering? We're able to watch their search right now, which is fascinating for us, but does that make it more difficult for the cops?

CLARK: Well, obviously when -- the more activity that you've got going on around you. But these law enforcement officers, they have to go about their business and do whatever the task may be. And I don't know that having an abundance of tips, having an abundance of tips may require more resources. But when you've got this type of exigent circumstance that we face now, you've got to take extreme measures. And that means not letting a tip go on terror.

And we've done that down here in Texas. We did it when I was up in New York on a number of cases up there. So you just don't let one go unturned. And you don't let resources be the reason that you don't go and do something. And that just may very well be the tip, not matter how small it may seem at the beginning.

And I think this is a good idea. And I think it's probably a speedier thing when you do have an entity like the FBI who perhaps can expedite a search warrant across the country, even though a local police can make a telephone call out there and perhaps get some assistance.

CARLSON: Now, Mike Brooks, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) what's puzzling about this development is everyone here in Washington has assumed the sniper, whoever he is, lives here because he appears to be so familiar with the area. I don't want to ask you to speculate, but do you have any sense, have you heard any rationale or explanation for why the investigation has moved thousands of miles from Washington?

BROOKS: Well, there is a possibility that whoever is involved in the shootings could have lived in the Tacoma, Washington area at one time. And I think if this does pan out, we'll definitely find out that could be true .

BEGALA: Don Clark, as we're watching these men do their job -- and women, I should say; don't want to be sexist here -- but as these men and women do their job there, they're looking for a metal object, which Mike Brooks told us earlier that he thinks it's a gun.

How deep can the ground penetrating radar detect something that's, you know, the size of a gun?

CLARK: Well, I don't know that because I just have that kind of scientific knowledge about it. I'm pretty well versed at being able to talk to those people and get the equipment that's needed. And I suspect that's what they have done. And I think that they'll be able to go to a depth enough to find whatever it is that may be there, if it's there at all.

BEGALA: Let me ask Mike Brooks then to pick up that then. Mike, this is ground penetrating radar. How deep can it go, and what can they find?

BROOKS: You can pick up an anomaly under the ground maybe four, five up to six feet deep, depending upon what kind of equipment they're using, what kind of model of ground penetrating radar they're using and some other technology that they do have at their disposal.

The FBI evidence response team does an excellent job. I know there is one in Seattle. And there is a possibility that they could be -- could be being used here.

We've used it to find remains under the ground. To look for, we've gone out sometimes and looked for remains and find antique bottles, you know, that's all we find.

But the penetrating ground radar works extremely well, and there's some other technology that the evidence response teams and other forensic experts are able to bring to bear at this particular scene. I'm sure they're using it.

CARLSON: Commissioner Safir, you've obviously seen a lot of crimes and investigated a lot. Does this series of crimes, these shootings in the Washington area, remind you of any case you've investigated in the past?

SAFIR: It doesn't because of the randomness of it. You know, we had the Zodiac killer in New York. We had Son of Sam. When you look around the country at Franklin (ph) and people like that, they all have some kind of relationship with their victims. And they get some pleasure out of inflicting pain on their victims. This perpetrator seems to be more interested in targets of opportunity and seems to be getting his pleasure out of the surrounding media hype that follows it and the notoriety that he's getting as a result of his shootings. But there is no personal interaction.

And I can't remember any case similar to this.

CARLSON: Well, does that make you suspect -- except of course in terrorism cases -- and I wonder if that makes you suspect that there's a political motive somewhere here.

SAFIR: Well, there may be as political motive in this individual's mind. I personally don't think it's terrorism, although you can't rule out anything. But it just doesn't feel like terrorism. The kind of interaction that the perpetrator is having with Chief MOose doesn't suggest to me that it's terrorism.

BEGALA: In fact, let me ask Don Clark that same question though. Coming from the FBI where they do have a lot more experience with terrorism, it does seem to be this would be the perfect distraction for Al Qaida to then do some other attack - God-forbid a weapons of mass destruction -- even when we now have thousands, justifiably, but thousands of our best law enforcement personnel searching for this sniper. Is this that too far fetched?

I think we lost Don Clark. Let me throw that then to Commissioner Safir. Do you think this could possibly be a distraction to them prepare for, God-forbid, a second attack from Al Qaida?

SAFIR: Well, I don't think there's any question that we're going to be vulnerable to a second attack. And I think everybody who's in this business expects that there is going to be a second attack.

I just don't think that this is the distraction that you're suggesting.

CARLSON: OK. Mike Brooks, do we have any indication of who it is that's doing the investigating on the ground in Tacoma, Washington? Is it the FBI? Is it the local law enforcement? Who is it?

BROOKS: No, we can't say for right now. Looking at the vehicles and being familiar with the vehicles, it looks like there could be some FBI involvement, but we can't say for sure at this moment.

It could be the FBI's evidence response team from there. And they also, on a regular basis, bring groups from the engineering section of Quantico in that have some of this specialized equipment to actually run the equipment.

But again, that's speculation right now. But we will find that out shortly.

CARLSON: Well, we were just talking a moment ago about the possibility that there's a political element to these killings. And I've wondered if you've heard mention of any groups that are under extra heavy surveillance, or have been for the last month. Typically, as I understand it, groups who might be responsible for acts like this come under extra surveillance when something like this happens. Has that been happening? Do you know?

BROOKS: I know that all of the sources are out there. They're beating the bushes on the FBI side. They FBI joint terrorism task force in Washington does a fantastic job. They're out there trying to find out exactly if there is any terrorist link to this.

You know, everybody says, "You know, is this terrorism?" We've talked about terrorism. We don't know what the motivation behind the shooter is.

Usually, under the FBI definition of terrorism, the unlawful use of force or violence to intimidate or coerce a government, civilian population or any segment thereof in the furtherance of political or social objectives.

Now, has this shooter changed the lives of people? Has he had a change of their -- is it a social objectives?

I think he's changed the lives socially of people, but in the true sense of terrorism, looking at 9/11, and the World Trade Center, those incidents, I don't know if we're really looking at a true terrorist.

I would think not. But just recently we heard homeland security Director Tom Ridge come out and say, "It does look like terrorism, because this person is terrorizing the whole community."

BEGALA: Right. Commissioner Safir, as we're watching these law enforcement personnel conduct a search in Tacoma, Washington, on the other side of the country from us, we're thrown around phrases like "probable cause," and I think lawyers and cops know what that means. But for the rest of our audience, now high a bar is that? What do they need to take to a judge? As a general matter, of course we don't know the specifics here, but as a general matter, what do you need to bring to a judge before you can go into someone's home with a back hoe?

SAFIR: You have to bring some sort of substantive evidence. You have to either have a reliable source who is giving you the information. There has to be some substantive evidence that you've collected somewhere that would indicate some documentary evidence, perhaps, that would indicate that there was evidence to be found on the site. And it has to be, a reasonable man has to assume that a search would result in the seizure of some evidence.

CARLSON: OK, Mike Brooks in Atlanta, according to a wire we just received, the agents in the ground are federal agents. There's some from FBI, some from ATF. Apparently they've removed something from the scene, and found something, quote, "large underground." And it remains underground.

Wondering at what point an investigation does the ATF come in? We've talked about the ATF a lot. Can you give us the one set of (inaudible) of what the ATF is and when they enter into an investigations?

BROOKS: Well, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in this particular case, they are handling all of the forensics dealing with any weapons or any evidence that's gotten from the scenes -- shell casings, bullets fragments from the victims and also from victims' cars.

They are handling all of this. IT's being taken to their lab in Rockville, Maryland for a comparison.

There are experts there. They're forensic experts and firearms analysts are some of the best in the world. And they've done a great job so far.

CARLSON: So where -- if it is in fact true, and we assume that it is, that something has been removed from the ground, where does it go? I mean, does it go to lab? Does it go to an evidence locker?

BROOKS: Right.

CARLSON: What happens?

BROOKS: Most likely they will take this evidence, depending on what they find. If it's a weapon, most likely it will go to the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms lab that's been doing the work all along.

If it's any other evidence that they find, any other communiques with envelopes, those kind of things, that may have any kind of DNA evidence, fingerprint evidence, that will be sent most likely to the FBI lab for analysis.

BEGALA: And Don Clark, I'm glad you're back with us now. We're told that the FBI will be conducting a briefing shortly to let us know more facts. But what happens to the investigation if the evidence we now know goes to the FBI crime lab and so forth? Do we -- what do we expect next in the investigation? More searches or maybe arrest warrants being issued? Where do we go from here?

CLARK: Well, you're hoping that if you're conducting a search warrant, if you're exercising, executing a search warrant, what you're really trying to do is to get information that leads you to build a case, to identify someone to build a case, to identify a suspect.

And hopefully that can lead to an arrest. Or maybe it just leads you to one other step in the chain.

I don't want to jump to the conclusion and say that this particular incidence out in Washington may be the key of bringing this case to a conclusion. I would certainly love for that to be, but I don't think so at this point, unless they have a lot more than we know about.

But it may be another link to move them a little bit closer to a identifying someone. CARLSON: Mr. Safir, I hate to ask you to speculate once again, but if I could ask you to speculate, we're looking at pictures of the backyard of a duplex in Tacoma, Washington. So far away from where we are here in Washington, D.C.

Do you have any sense of how the police could wind up from the beltway all the way on the other side of the country? What could have lead them there? Evidence from the letter, phone calls, what do you think?

SAFIR: It could be evidence from the letter. It could be a finger print taken off some piece of evidence. It could be somebody who has given information that is credible to get enough probably cause for a warrant.

I mean, it really is speculation, but certainly it is a serious effort and they wouldn't be putting all of these resources into this if they did not think that it was going to further the investigation.

BEGALA: And in fact, Mr. Clark, we are glad because everybody get to see these kind of resources being brought to bear. But let me also kind of bring us back to get your veteran perspective as a law enforcement officer. Even if this is just a false lead, it is helpful for the investigators, is it not, for them to at least be able cross off the list something even if none of this that we're watching live in Tacoma, Washington, pans out .

CLARK: That is absolutely correct. Sometimes elimination in an investigation is as key as finding another piece of actual evidence because then you can direct your attention to something else.

It's just like eliminating suspects in a case. You can direct your attention now on to some other aspect of the case.

But the key here is that we've talked about this evidence and where it goes and what's it going to do. This is so important, and this is why I think the American public needs to be so assured that the command structure and the body that's running this operation has that ability to be able to exercise and do all of these things across the continent and maybe across the world, even if I don't necessarily think that it might be terrorist connected.

But what if it is? Then you still need that organizational structure there to be able to bring this together. I think that's very key to this investigation.

BEGALA: Well, we come back Commissioner Safir to the question, of the FBI (UNINTELIGIBLE). As we watch, federal agents, we now know conducting a search in Tacoma, Washington, doesn't this just mean that just de facto it's become a federal investigation, even if we don't call it that?

SAFIR: No, it means that the resources of the federal government are being utilized as the president directed. And I don't see that any jurisdiction has changed at this point. CARLSON: OK, Mike Brooks in Atlanta, you've worked in joint task forces between federal and with the FBI and local law enforcement. Is it even possible to have an investigation like this without the aid of a federal agency like the FIB?

BROOKS: Well, that's one of the reasons task forces were put together. The FBI realizes that they need the help of the state and local law enforcement in conducting any task, any cases, whether it be organized crime, terrorism, or murder investigations like this. And the locals are glad to bring in the FBI to get their resources and some of their funding, to handle large cases such as this.

So I think they -- we work together very well. We've seen an increase in the number of different task forces across the country that the FBI runs. ATF also over the years has had task forces. U.S. Marshals Service has also had a number of task forces to try to arrest large numbers of fugitives.

So I think what we're seeing here is the federal and the state and local working hand in hand. And in this particular case you see some people in uniform. You see and as we know, that there are some federal agents here working.

So there we have again the local crime scene search officers working with the FBI evidence response teams and the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, as somebody who has -- I have no background in law enforcement -- I want to draw on your vast expertise in it, the FBI will be briefing shortly, and CNN of course will carry that live, when they do, will they hold some of their cards close to their vest? Or are they likely to tell us everything that they've learned from this search that we're watching live from Tacoma, Washington?

SAFIR: I think they will let you know enough information that it does not affect the outcome of the case. If it is something that is going to hurt the investigation, they're not going to release it.

I was a federal agent for 26 years before I became police commissioner. I've been on both sides, and I know that the issue is that you release as little information as is going to satisfy the press, but not jeopardize the investigation.

CARLSON: Now, Don Clark, people in Washington have been saying for the last couple of days, Gee, you know, authorities have the note, apparently that the sniper left, a couple of notes. Why not make those public so that the public can recognize the handwriting for instance, or details in the notes? What do you think of that?

CLARK: Well, I think it has some merit to it. But the key in my experience and being involved in some of these investigations is that the command structure, the decision-making body, has to really figure out what can they release to the public that's going to enhance the investigation, whether it's identifying handwriting, or whether it's maybe a voice exemplar, or something of that nature, whatever it might be.

If I can release it to the public, it doesn't detract from the investigation. It does not violate any of the evidence rules that you've got to follow. And it's going to help. Then let it out to the public if it's going to help you bring something to justice here.

But I don't think that you should make that decision in a vacuum. And I don't think you should make that decision just saying, Oh, boy, we're going to get public comments back from it. Because you might just generate a lot of other tips. And you might tip off the wrong person. You should carefully assess it to see if it's going to benefit your investigation.

CARLSON: Speaking of the note, apparently the last note had a demand in it for $10 million, money that was to be wired into an account. Do you think it's even plausible, Mr. Clark, that the FBI would send $10 million to a bank account?

CLARK: Well, I think the FBI and I hope any other agency that's involved in a negotiation process, and that's what this really boils down to, that they're going to be very earnest brokers. And they're going to try to work with the person that they're talking to to figure out how best can they do this type of activity.

And they may prepare this activity, and this amount of money or whatever the case may be. But they are focused on trying to identify this person, trying to bring this person to justice. And I think they'll take whatever actions that they need to to try and make that happen. And that decision, I can't make sitting here. But I can tell you there will be a lot of thought about whatever it is when you've got a person like this that's roaming around shooting people.

However, I think this $10 million is a little bit off the cuff for somebody that's committing this kind of crime.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, we've learned now that Tacoma police, they're on the scene, are also assisting in the investigation along with federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents and FBI agents, having been both -- a federal law enforcement official and the commissioner of the New York City police department, isn't there going to be inevitable tension in this kind of a high stakes, high stress investigation and the sort of search that we're now watching live as they have heavy machinery and other equipment there in Tacoma, Washington.

SAFIR: My experience has been just the opposite. In the kind of investigations that involve the possible loss of human life is that everybody takes their bars and stars off, and they work very closely together.

I've seen turf battles in other kinds of investigations. But when it comes to homicide investigations, everybody pulls together has been my experience.

BEGALA: That's certainly good to hear. CARLSON: OK, Mike Brooks, we just learned that a tree stump has been loaded on to the back of a truck by a back hoe. Is this the kind of meaningless detail that kind of floats off into the footnotes of history? Is this significant? How could it be significant, a tree stump?

BROOKS: I don't know. It could -- they also could be, since they cut the tree down, they could just be removing it. You know, maybe somebody would want it for firewood. They could just be taking it out of the way...

CARLSON: A little landscaping?

BROOKS: Exactly. It could just be getting it out of the way. You know, so we don't know. I'm just looking at the pictures here, and it's kind of hard to tell from this vantage point. And hopefully we'll hear something from the FBI soon.

You were talking about the letter earlier and whether they should put out the different notes. We go back to the Unibomber case and Ted Kaczynski where it was -- law enforcement not making the decisions, as Don said, in a vacuum, decided to go ahead and release the manifesto. And it was wound up by releasing the manifesto, Ted Kaczynski's brother recognized the writing style, and basically turned his brother in.

So it's a fine line to draw on deciding what to put out and what not to put out.

BEGALA: Let me ask Don Clark then to follow-up on that. Nobody wants to second guess cops as they're doing their job. And we so admire the work that they're doing. They're trying to save lives out there. But at the same time, isn't is useful to put a little pressure? The FBI will be briefing soon. Journalists doing their job, trying to draw more information that may be able to help people realize who this is.

Somebody knows this killer, right? And if we put out, say things like that letter, they may recognize the handwriting or the syntax and turn in the killer.

CLARK: Well, I'm a believer in these types of cases, this one, the rail car killer in Texas here, and other types of cases that we've had is that this is where we can really draw from the public. And I'm also a believer that the media can really help in that.

I don't think though that the investigation should necessarily be targeted at what can I give the media to put out to the public? What can I satisfy the media with?

I don't think that should be the focus at all. I think what should be the focus is what we best do to solve this investigation and making sure that we're putting the exact information out there that might trigger something that's going to help us solve the case?

So I don't look at is as let's just feed the media something. Let's figure out what's best served for this investigation. And this one is an extremely serious one. And that takes -- that brings about a lot of tension.

BEGALA: And let me ask Commissioner Safir then, to try to resolve the tension, as a layman, help be out here, why are we telling the killer what kind of surveillance planes we're using to spy on him, but we're not telling his neighbors or maybe even relatives what his handwriting looks like?

I don't understand why we releasing what we're releasing.

SAFIR: Well, I Know that he joint command in Montgomery County, which is all of the agencies involved, sit down and very carefully decide what they're going to release and what they're not going to release. And of course, we can only speculate on what the motivation is behind it. But second guessing, I don't think, is very helpful.

I think the reality is that you have some of the best law enforcement people in the country working on this. And they're making very careful decisions on what to release and what not to release.

BEGALA: OK, gentlemen, we have a studio filled with people here from the Washington, D.C. area and we're going to take a question from one of them -- a member of our audience.

Yes, ma'am? Yes, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I am Stephanie Winkler (ph) from Boca Raton, Florida. And if this situation in Tacoma, Washington does lead the police to evidence in the sniper attacks, do you think the media is essentially giving the sniper a heads up that we are close to catching him or her?

CARLSON: Mike Brooks, what do you think about that? I mean is there -- when you talk to law enforcement officials, do they worry that the press is helping -- unwittingly helping the sniper?

BROOKS: We -- I think we have it. They do worry a little bit about that, but right now, you know, they're not making any effort to block the scene. You know, they could put up tarps and those kind of things. So I don't think they're making any effort to hide what they're doing.

But -- and when they come out and say exactly what they have found, if anything, they'll be very calculated and not giving up too much information to make sure that the shooter, who we know is listening to the press, that he is not given, he, she, they are not given too much information.

CARLSON: Mr. Safir, there's been a lot of talk about how the press might be helping the sniper, unintentionally, of course. I wonder though, on the law enforcement side, if cops are ever hesitant to use the press in the way that they do. Is there ever hand ringing on the law enforcement side, you know? Maybe we shouldn't be using the press they way we do? SAFIR: Well it is a balance. But right here I think it is clear that the best way to communicate with the sniper right now is through the media. And, you know, this is like a hostage negotiation and Chief Moose is the communicator. And as the communicator he has to use the press to get his message to the sniper.

BEGALA: And, Don Clark, I'm sure that you're familiar with times, maybe in your own career, when law enforcement has asked the press not to release something. Not because it's false, but because true. It could hinder the investigation. Are you aware of cases like that from your own experience?

CLARK: Certainly I've had cases like that and I've had pretty good success with it. As a matter of fact I can say I've had good success when the media has come and said, Look, we know -- we have some information about one thing or the other. And you can sit down and talk to them.

I don't think we ought to paint this picture that it's an us against them type of thing. I suspect that we're all interested in trying to identify who this person may be. It's very important for the law enforcement community to protect what they feel is necessary for the conclusion -- successful conclusion to this case.

And I think they should try and get whatever else they can out to the media. I think the media's going to do everything it can to get try to get what information that it can. But don't leak it. If it's evidence, if it's crucial to the investigation, don't leak it, keep it to yourselves and go on about your investigative business.

With this thing out in Washington right now, I'm sure that they could have done a lot of things to really deceive what was really taking place out there as opposed to just exposing it and it immediately become knowledgeable. So obviously somebody said, This is not that significant to us.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Safir, for law enforcement agency is the potential of panicking the public a major concern? For instance, if you knew there that was suggestion this was some kind of conspiracy, possibly terrorism, would you keep that information to yourself for fear of scaring the public?

SAFIR: I think you have to balance the danger to the public and whether or not making the public aware of is going to help safeguard them. And I think that's the balance that you have to have with the media and what you release.

I have found that in most cases if you tell the media not to say something, they've been acting fairly responsibly. On the other hand, you don't want to unnecessarily panic somebody. But it's just like the case of a serial rapist, if the public's going to be in danger, you want to let the community know that there's a serial rapist out there.

BEGALA: Mike Brooks, if you're still with us -- thank you for staying through all of this -- we're watching them now sweep with metal detectors. It looks like there's some kind of tape or grid down there. What's the process that we're watching there as they search for clues in Tacoma, Washington, the other side of the continent from where the shootings took place?

BOOKS: Well what they do, the evidence technicians, the evidence response team and now we know both local and federal agents, get to the scene. They will set up a game plan, see exactly what they're going to do. They'll decide to go ahead and grid it off. They'll get ground positioning GPS readings on the whole yard, they stake it out. Set up the yellow tape as we see in the pictures right now and then they'll start methodically.

They'll take a look, they'll photograph the area before they start. They'll come in. They'll do a sweep with, first of all, visual check of the area to see if there are any anomalies, you know, any bumps, any sinking areas that someone maybe has dug up the area and the ground has settled. That a lot of times you will find if people dig it up, over time, it will settle. They'll look for anything visually.

Then they'll go ahead, and we see now, with a metal detector. They will use the metal detector to go through, see if there is any surface metal. They can set -- there's different settings you can use on the metal detector for different sensitivity levels. They will go back and forth, look for anything they have there. Then they will go over, most likely, with the ground penetrating radar looking for any anomalies under the surface of the backyard there.

BEGALA: Mr. Safir, in your long experience, are cases like this usually solved by consistent police work or are they usually broken open by a single break in the case, for instance, in the Unabomber case where his brother came forward.

SAFIR: My experience has been that it's usually a bit of luck, some good old-fashioned detective work. We had the Zodiac Killer in New York, two and a half years after he committed his last murder. He was arrested in a domestic incident. He was giving a statement, he put a Zodiac sign on the side of the statement. The detective who worked on the case just happened to be there, he recognized it and we solved the case.

BEGALA: Well, Don Clark, that's -- congratulations to good police work on Commissioner Safir's part in the NYPD. But that sounds like leaving an awful lot to chance. I mean, for example I know for instance that law enforcement caught Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, because he was driving without a rear license plate. David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam mass murderer, was caught because of parking tickets. Do we just have to, in addition to all of this effort, just wait for blind luck like that?

CLARK: No, I don't think so. You make your luck, you make your breaks. You make your breaks by law enforcement people getting out there and doing exactly what they know to do, start from the beginning of a crime and work their way through it. And if you don't get evidence there, you start over again and you keep repeating that. You use all these things that's available to you, to include the media here and hope that some information can get out. That you can draw some information from the public out there that may add to you solving this case. But it's not going to be just blind luck. It's going to be that you're going to make that luck by the time of investigation and your strategy that you developed.

You just can't fly off with things. You've got to develop a strategy and look what your options may be. Prioritize them and try to follow that process to get you to your conclusion.

CARLSON: Mike Brooks, just a procedural question based on the pictures we're looking at here from Tacoma, Washington, a lot of guy in hard hats and philson (ph) trousers, et cetera. Are they all on staff for the FBI? Does the FBI have its own digging crews on hand? Or who are these people?

BROOKS: No these people look like fire department personnel from Washington. They will bring them in. Again the FBI and local police don't have some of the heavy equipment you know, the saws and that kind of thing. They're going to call in other resources also. We've used -- we use the fire department and other resources on cases I've worked in the past to assist and that what it looks like. These are firefighters that are on the scene assisting with some of their equipment that they have also.

CARLSON: So when the FBI comes into a town like Tacoma, they can create an all hands on deck so any municipal employee whose capable of doing a job can be drafted to do it? Is that the way it works?

BROOKS: Well there's mutual aid agreements and those kind of things. And in this case, if they do have a warrant and they do need some assistance, they call on them very regularly. And the fire department always responds.

Numerous times if we needed, let's say, an extra battering ram to serve a search warrant, I'd go over to the firehouse and say, Hey can I use one of you battering rams. They'd be more than happy to loan us a battering ram or halogen bar or anything else we need to do our job.

BEGALA: Commissioner Safir, I'm guessing here that we would not be watching these from Tacoma, Washington if the local and federal law enforcement officials didn't want us to, right?

If they had wanted to they could have interrupted -- sightlines moved in. Trucks or tarps or ask people to ground their helicopters. Our affiliate KING is getting these pictures for us. My guess is that law enforcement probably sees some utility in broadcasting these pictures. What do you think?

SAFIR: I think that's correct. I think that if we did not want you to see, then law enforcement -- we would have created a frozen zone around the area. that would have caused a lot of speculation. But you still wouldn't have seen the pictures.

CARLSON: OK, we're going to continue our coverage now of this breaking story with Connie Chung in New York -- Connie.

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in Tacoma Scene of Major Search>