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Mondale Begins Campaign Strong Against Iraq War; How Will Saddam Influence Voters?

Aired October 31, 2002 - 19:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the ghost of campaigns past or Minnesota's senator of the future?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER MONDALE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I decided that I needed to do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Guess who is still haunting President Bush?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's a problem. He's a true threat to America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, who would take candy away from children and cancel Halloween?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to what promises to be a truly frightening Halloween edition of CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, verified sightings of Walter Mondale summoned from the political mausoleum. Also, will the most frightening boogie man around -- that would be Saddam Hussein -- affect voter's choices on Election Day? But first, be very afraid because here comes the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

For the first time in 30-odd years, Walter Mondale is cranking out the campaign for elected office in his home state of Minnesota. With a mere five days to go before the Senate election, Mondale, of course, resorted to that fantastic medium of the 1930s, radio. Later, he reached even farther back, attending a colonial-style town hall meeting. The 74-year-old told the crowd he's for peace, adding he would have voted against the Senate resolution authorizing use of force against Iraq, just like Paul Wellstone did. The audience applauded.

Mondale's plan? Pray that the United Nations can convince Saddam Hussein to become a better, more thoughtful person. Sound familiar? It's a strategy the Carter-Mondale administration used so effectively in Afghanistan and Iran. Just ask the former hostages.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Mondale is going to win that race. He's going to win big because he deserves to, because he's a man for principle. And you know, the right wing likes to say, well, he's an old guy, but, you know what, he also has old-fashioned values of principle and conviction, as opposed to Norm Coleman, who just a few years ago said I'm a Clinton/Wellstone Democrat. Now he says he's a Bush Republican.

CARLSON: He deserves it? He's been running for about 20 minutes. He deserves it? He ought to be playing golf. It's embarrassing.

BEGALA: He deserves it because he's running against a total fraud, a total phony in Norm Coleman. He's going to beat his ass like a bad piece of meat.

"The New York Times" today reports that SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt's nominee to run the accounting oversight board recently headed the audit committee of the company that stands accused of fraud. The appointee, former federal judge William Webster, told Pitt about the matter and offered to withdraw from the post. Pitt told Webster not to worry, that the SEC staff had checked it out and it was not a problem.

But "The Times" reports that the SEC never checked it out and Pitt never told his fellow commissioners before they confirmed Webster. Now, Judge Webster disclosed everything and he's got a sterling record for integrity. Harvey Pitt, who covered it up, does not. When reached (ph) for comment, President Bush said Harvey is only lying about the financial integrity of our nation, not something important like sex.

CARLSON: I think it's time to get over the whole Clinton thing. I think it's time to let go, Paul. Still I don't understand that story.

When Frank Lautenberg first ran for the Senate in 1982, age was a central issue in the campaign. Lautenberg's opponent, Republican Millicent Fenwick (ph), was 72 years old. Lautenberg's campaign implied that she might be senile. Lautenberg himself defended that 72 was too old to "get an awful lot done for New Jersey."

Fast forward 20 years. Mr. Lautenberg is again running for the Senate. If he wins, he'll be 79 by the time he's sworn in and he'll be well on his way to 90 by the end of his term. During a debate yesterday with Republican Doug Forrester, Lautenberg was asked about his attacks on Millicent Fenwick's (ph) age. Remarkably, he defended them, saying it was "perfectly appropriate to slam a woman for being five years younger than he is now."

On the other hand, it's possible that Mr. Lautenberg didn't understand the question. According to newspaper accounts, the former senator "seemed to lose his train of thought while speaking."

BEGALA: Again...

CARLSON: I feel bad. I'm not mocking him.

BEGALA: ... for the party of Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole and Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms to be attacking anybody on age is kind of laughable.

CARLSON: No, Lautenberg is the one who attacked his opponent on age.

BEGALA: And moreover, in a mid-year election -- here's a little clue -- senior citizens vote a whole lot more than the rest of us. So attacking people...

CARLSON: But not necessarily people who lose their way in mid sentence.

BEGALA: ... particularly bad strategy, Tucker.

Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee is on the verge of losing his seat to state treasurer Jimmy Lou Fisher (ph). Perhaps because Huckabee was caught accepting $23,000 in clothing and gifts from a wealthy supporter. The very same conduct that drove Robert Torricelli out of the New Jersey Senate race.

Meanwhile, Huckabee's wife, Janet Huckabee, is losing her own campaign for secretary of state. Her response? To threaten to go on a shooting spree. I am not making this up.

On page A-20 of today's "New York Times" she says, "If it wasn't for the grace of god, I would have shot a few people already." She went on to say, "Jesus wasn't liked either and Jesus was mistreated and called names." In response, the lord god released the following statement: I know Jesus. Jesus is my son. And Janet Huckabee, you're no Jesus Christ.

CARLSON: That's too bad. The Huckabees started out better than they wound up, unfortunately. I'm not going to defend that.

One of the hardest things about doing a long sentence in federal prison is thinking up a catchy slogan for your congressional campaign. A convicted felon, James Traficant of Ohio, has managed to pull it off nonetheless. "No American should fear their government," Traficant says in a new campaign ad just released. "You and I both know that many Americans fear their government."

No one knows that better than Traficant, who, thanks to the government, spends his days in a 6 x 6 box with a steel toilet. The ad was filmed the day before the former congressman was sentenced to an eight-year term for corruption. Another commercial that started running this week shows some of the building projects Mr. Traficant has supported over the years, including a courthouse and, appropriately, a federal prison. The announcer's voice intones, "Say what you want about him, but Traficant gets the job done." Say what you want about him, we at CROSSFIRE sure miss him.

BEGALA: I can't wait until they give him a furlough or something and he can come on the show. Come back Jim Traficant, we miss you and love you. But don't come back to Congress, just come back to CROSSFIRE.

Bob Ehrlich, a congressman who is the Republican nominee for governor in Maryland, is in a very close race in that state with Democrat Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. I have to say, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why in a state that saw the worst of the recent sniper attacks, Mr. Ehrlich began his campaign by calling for the repeal of several gun control measures.

Now he's announced that former Maryland Governor Marvin Mandel will advise him on how to reform state government. Mandel, in case you don't remember, not only served as governor of Maryland, he also served time in the big house for fraud. Why turn to a crook to advise you on reform? Apparently Ehrlich was planning to ask Spiro Agnew and then he found out Agnew is dead.

CARLSON: Too bad. Agnew would have made a great Democratic senator. I'll tell you -- I know, but when you're this old, you can run for Senate as a Democrat. But it turns out Kathleen Kennedy Townsend is losing because she leveraged the sniper attacks and her father's own murder for political gain, and that's disgusting.

BEGALA: She talked about a very important issue in very important way.

CARLSON: It's embarrassing.

Finally, this footnote to our show last night, when television critic Tom Shales joined us to discuss his new book about "Saturday Night Live." During the program, I quoted an article Mr. Shales recently wrote calling certain people "semi-talented geeks and pea- brained publicists."

Naturally, I assumed he was talking about talk show hosts like me. But he was not. Instead, Mr. Shales was attacking "Saturday Night Live" cast members who resisted interviews and therefore made his job difficult.

It was my mistake. And I'm sorry about that. I just assumed that all attacks are naturally aimed at talk show hosts.

BEGALA: I can't wait to read that book, though. I'm looking forward to it. I was looking at it back stage.

Well, even though it's Halloween -- and we'll get to Tucker's and my costumes in just a little bit -- there are only four days left until the election. And what could be more frightening than Republican control of the Senate to add to their control of the House, the White House and the federal courts?

So, up next, Walter Mondale carries on Paul Wellstone's memory. Here's hoping that every Democrat in America does the same thing.

And later, how a possible war with Iraq may affect voter's choices next week. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

The U.S. Senate contest in Minnesota resumed in earnest today with former Vice President Walter Mondale saying he doesn't need to apologize to anyone for his long political career and reminding voters that his experience is an asset. By that standard, our first two guests have plenty of assets and tremendous experience for a couple of handsome young bucks.

Please welcome Democratic Strategist Peter Fenn and Republican Consultant Charlie Black.

CARLSON: All right, Peter, I have had a couple of days to think about this and I think I've zeroed in on exactly...

PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It took you two days?

CARLSON: It has, actually. This has been percolating all day. I've been thinking about what bothers me about Democratic attempts to turn the death of Senator Wellstone into a political rallying cry, and it is this. It reveals a certain kind of scary level of zealotry, an idea that politics is more important than anything.

If I died and my children stood up at my funeral and said our father has died, but the most important thing is that his show continue to beat MSNBC. That's the most important thing. His legacy -- I'm serious that would be sick. There's something sick about this.

FENN: There's nothing at all sick about it. I watched all three and a half hours of that. It was an extraordinary event. Did one person go over the top? Did Kahn (ph), when he named Republican members and tried to get Republicans to vote for Democrats, crazy idea it seems to me? But this was an outpouring.

There were 20,000 people. These were political people. There's nothing unusual about that. What really bothers me, Tucker, is that you have had a former speaker of the House of Representatives on "Meet the Press," less than 48 hours after the death of Paul Wellstone, going after Walter Mondale and lying about his record.

CARLSON: Well, that's interesting, because...

FENN: That was an outrageous statement.

CARLSON: Well I'll get to that in just a minute. FENN: When he said he was for privatization and when he said he was raising the retirement age. Dead wrong.

CARLSON: We'll debate that in one second. I want to show you what Mr. Mondale himself said about the death of Senator Wellstone. It's actually one of the creepiest things I heard this week. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONDALE: So here we are grieving, all of us, all Minnesotans, and yet, in an almost unseemly way, we're required to campaign for a political office to succeed the martyred senator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: The martyred senator. Now, Peter, someone needs to remind Democrats this is not a religion, it's not a theology, it's politics. It's about running the government. You don't worship the remains of a politician. This is sick.

FENN: No, there's nothing sick about it. In fact, it seems to be contradictory to what you said earlier. But, the point is, what he's saying is here is a guy who gave his life for his country, which he did. I mean, you know, we have had these examples of people going down in airplanes, people being killed, you know, in public service.

CARLSON: It's campaign, not a battle.

FENN: I understand that. But let me make just make one point about this. Paul Wellstone was a revered man amongst an awful lot of people. He stirred up emotions strong on both sides.

And I think you did see that at the memorial service. And one of things I think that you're going to see with this Mondale campaign is a carrying of the issues, a carrying on of the mantle of Paul Wellstone, but by someone who has real serious things to offer the American people. And it will be a great campaign.

BEGALA: Charlie Black, you were one of the great geniuses behind Ronald Reagan's triumphs. And one of his great moments -- there were many -- was when he turned to Fritz Mondale in that debate in 1984 -- Reagan then was 73, Mondale today is 74 -- and some Democrats foolishly were trying to make Reagan's age an issue. And he turned to him and he said, "I'm not going to use my opponent's youth and inexperience against him."

Walter Mondale today said something very similar. Take a look. He's sounding a whole lot like your old boss, the gipper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONDALE: I don't apologize for my experience. I think it's an asset. I think the very things that our country needs right now in that Senate are the things that my experience permits me to bring to bear. We've got a serious economy, we've got international security challenges. The other things I talked about, and that's what this campaign is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: It is an enormous mistake to mock his age, isn't it?

CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Oh I don't think there's any problem with his age. I don't think there's any problem with his experience. But his experience does represent the past. You don't hear me quote...

BEGALA: Experience can't represent the future. That's a fact. I mean, ipso facto.

BLACK: But allow me parenthetically to quote Bill Clinton, which you know I don't do very often, Paul. But he said politics is always about the future and never about the past. Norm Coleman is about the future, with a vigorous, energetic candidate who is a moderate, who has proven as mayor of St. Paul that he can solve problems.

Vice President Mondale, his record in the past, very consistent, promised tax increases, promoted big government, defended budget deficits and consistently voted to cut defense spending. Now that is relevant to today's issues and today's policies. And Minnesota doesn't want any part of it.

BEGALA: Who do you think the voters has more respect for, somebody who stays true to their principles, the way that Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan and Jesse Helms did, Paul Wellstone did, or Norm Coleman, who goes from being a Clinton Democrat in 1996? My guy's state chairman of Minnesota was Norm Coleman to switching like that on a dime and being a Bush Republican? He's a fraud, isn't he?

BLACK: No, he is absolutely not.

BEGALA: He's the phoniest guy in politics today.

BLACK: He had a consistent set of principles and a moderate problem solver.

BEGALA: He's a Clinton guy, now he's a Bush guy...

BLACK: He got elected as a Democrat and then he saw the light and he changed. He's been consistent in his views. But, the other thing about -- well, how is this for principle? Mondale has said so far that he wouldn't run negative ads, that he wouldn't raise money.

Just before I came tonight, I found out the first negative radio ad against Coleman is on the air in Minnesota. And Tom Daschle is out raising money for Mondale, when they said they wouldn't do either.

(CROSSTALK)

FENN: It's not his ad, because, you know what, it's actually about free trade and he's for free trade. So whoever wrote -- and, first of all, it's a terrible ad. But I don't know where it came from. But it's not Mondale's ad

(CROSSTALK).

CARLSON: One at time. Now Peter Fenn, let me ask you this. You said he is -- I'm quoting you here now. "Walter Mondale has real serious things to offer the American people." Do you think he'll revive the debate over the ERA?

FENN: All I know is he's pro-choice now, has always been pro- choice. But you're against -- let me -- let me tell you something. I worked for Norm Coleman. I was his first consultant in his first race for mayor. Now, he was a Democrat then. And you know something?

CARLSON: Well then he hired you and it scared him...

FENN: Don't you wish? No, the interesting thing about Norm Coleman, he's a bright guy, he's an energetic guy. But, you know, this guy does not have a compass. He does not have a moral compass.

I hate to say that on the show. He doesn't. No, let me tell you something. Here's the guy who was pro -- who was pro-choice and became pro-life.

CARLSON: Good for him.

FENN: Well, good for him. He changed his views, he -- you know, he changed his views at the drop of a hat. It's unfortunate -- yes, he has. You know, he was...

CARLSON: I'm sorry to cut you off.

FENN: He was a New York radical and now he's a Minnesota conservative.

CARLSON: He's grown, Peter. And we're going to grow the second we get back. We're going to take a quick commercial break.

In a minute, we'll take you out of the land of a thousand lakes and into the land of a thousand corporate scandals. Will voters blame the Republicans?

Later, from North Korea's nukes to Saddam's germs, we'll put international worries into the CROSSFIRE. And our quote of the day, someone old enough to know better passes up the chance to remind his friends about their manners. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back.

Enron's former chief financial officer, Andrew Fastow, was indicted today on 78 counts, including fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. The White House, meanwhile, expressed confidence in SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt who, despite Democratic conspiracy theories, was not in fact involved in the Kennedy assassination and is not out to destroy the U.S. accounting industry.

Chances are, the voters can also sort fact from fiction when it comes to scandals, non-scandals and the election. We're debating all of this with Democratic Strategist Peter Fenn and Republican Consultant Charlie Black.

BEGALA: Charlie, Tucker's jokes about the Kennedy assassination notwithstanding, "The New York Times" today had a breath-taking front- page investigative piece about Harvey Pitt, the SEC chairman, misleading the Securities and Exchange Commission about the background of someone he tried to put in to run the accounting oversight board.

Senator Paul Sarbanes spoke out on this today. He is one of the least partisan Democrats on Capitol Hill. He's the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.

BEGALA: So you think -- just so that I get your grounding, do you think Paul Sarbanes is partisan the way Jesse Helms is?

BLACK: One hundred percent party loyalty.

BEGALA: Boy are you smoking something. Here is what Paul Sarbanes said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PAUL SARBANES (D), MARYLAND: The failure of the chairman to disclose to the other members of the SEC prior to the vote, I think, this information, with respect to what had transpired at the company that judge Webster was connected with, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the responsibilities of the chairman of the SEC.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Now, Harvey Pitt is a man who has misled the SEC -- according to the newspaper, misled the White House about the qualifications and the background of the man he's putting in. He's got to go.

BLACK: Well, here's what the story said. I'll even use "The New York times" fact pattern. Judge Webster told him, hey, I was on a board of company that did have some problems and is being accused of a lot of things. He had the chief accountant at the SEC, a nonpartisan career public official check it out.

He came back an said, Mr. Chairman, this is not a problem. That's the way the government...

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) actually went to everybody involved. And they said, no, nobody ever called us. They never checked it out, according to "The Times."

BLACK: The chief accountant of the SEC, again, a career civil servant, told the chairman he checked it out and there was no problem. What is Chairman Pitt supposed to do? That's the way that the government works. BEGALA: That's the way the government works under George W. Bush. If you cover up somebody's background that's OK. If you mislead even the White House...

BLACK: Why don't you go talk to the career civil servant who did this, who failed to find anything at fault with Judge Webster. Nobody in America thinks there's anything wrong with Judge Webster.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Stop. Stop. Now let's just pull back from the grassy knoll a little bit here.

Now, Peter Fenn, the thing I love -- Let's go to Enron. A little broader here. Democrats thought this was going to be a huge campaign issue, it turns out that they were right, but hasn't helped them. It's also helped Republicans. I want you to take a look at an ad being run by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts, running for governor against Shannon O'Brien (ph). Here's the spot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: But while she was treasurer, her husband was a lobbyist working for big, big contractors, and even for Enron. Under O'Brien (ph), our pension fund lost billions, including the $23 million we lost when O'Brien's (ph) people invested in Enron stock, after the government said Enron was under investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Now, that spot, I think it's pretty well done. And it's actually having an effect. I can think Colorado is another state where the corporate scandals have hurt Democrats. This is not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Democrats' benefit.

FENN: You didn't mention that Elizabeth Dole went out secretly to have a fundraiser with Kenneth Lay of Enron. I guess you wanted to leave that one off the table.

(CROSSTALK)

FENN: Oh, I see.

CARLSON: No, but you're not addressing my point, which is...

(CROSSTALK)

FENN: You mean -- you mean the man Mr. Lay, as the president used to refer to him afterwards, but Kenny he used to refer to him before?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But the point is, the public does not know that World Com gave the same amount to Democrats that it did to Republicans basically. It's just not helping Democrats. You can admit that. It's all right, Peter.

FENN: The sad part of this, and Harvey Pitt illustrates it, if you talk about fox guarding chicken coop, that's what we have here. We have the two corporate boys, the president, the vice president, the Texaco twins, who are not going to go after these guys. Not to change America.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I thought you said he was a fire-breathing partisan.

FENN: Let me just say this. Putting Harvey Pitt in charge of the SEC is like putting a pyromaniac in charge of the forest service.

BLACK: Well, I'll give you Paul Sarbanes phone number, because his committee confirmed it.

BEGALA: Because they were not being partisan, proving you wrong when you called him a fire-breathing partisan.

BLACK: They didn't investigate enough, like you're accusing Pitt I think.

BEGALA: Well, we need to get him out of there now, by god. He's lying...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACK: He hasn't done anything wrong and he's not going anywhere.

BEGALA: Of course. So it's OK -- again, the Republican view, you can't lie about sex, but you can lie about the financial integrity of accounting...

Charlie Black, Republican Consultant, thank you very much. Peter Fenn, Democratic Strategist, guys, thanks a lot for a fun debate.

You won't believe, though, who Tucker Carlson is going to dress up as for Halloween this year. If you stay tuned, you'll get a little peek.

Also, we'll have a guest who isn't bothering to celebrate Halloween and thinks you shouldn't either. Next, though, our quote of the day. It ought to be the last word about all this Republicans carping about the late Paul Wellstone's memorial service, and I think it will be. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back. Try as he might to change the subject with negative advertising, Walter Mondale can't seem to get away from his fellow Democrats embarrassing, shameful behavior during Tuesday night's memorial service for Paul Wellstone.

Minnesota Republicans are demanding equal time from television stations that carried what was supposed to be a tribute that turned into a Democratic Party campaign rally complete with booing of Republicans.

Given a chance to denounce such ugly behavior as many other Democrats have, Mondale instead choose to earn our quote of the day.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONDALE: This unbelievable event heard from speakers who were talking about loves ones in their family who had lost their lives. They were not censored in what they had to say. And some of them -- at least some of them maybe went a little bit over the line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Well, just admit that it was embarrassing. Lots of Democrats in Minnesota are embarrassed and ashamed this happened. Just admit that it was wrong.

I mean, I don't know why that's so hard.

BEGALA: Why do Republicans want to control everybody's life in every way. Now you're going to try to tell these people how to...

CARLSON: What...

BEGALA: ... grieve? They lost their loved ones. Paul Wellstone was a politics and to...

CARLSON: And so they agitate for Democrats to be elected. That's disgusting. Can't you see why that's disgusting?

BEGALA: You know what, at Louis Armstrong, they played jazz.

CARLSON: Jazz is not politics.

BEGALA: You know, that's what he...

CARLSON: Politics is low. This is unbelievable. Don't they see that something are more important than politics like life and death. Even at a funeral -- ugh.

BEGALA: Do all funerals need to run by the Carlson department of funeral etiquette here?

CARLSON: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. You shouldn't boo people...

BEGALA: Let these people mourn...

CARLSON: ... on partisan grounds at a funeral.

BEGALA: Of course you shouldn't and everybody -- Senator Mondale just said that too. Of course you shouldn't. That was across the line, as Mondale just said.

CARLSON: I wish he had said it.

BEGALA: But don't tell people how to grieve.

CARLSON: I'm not telling them...

BEGALA: In a minute we will go looking for campaign issues over the horizon and outside of America's borders. And also, much closer to home, tonight is the night little ghosts and goblins go ringing doorbells in search of treats.

What in the world can be wrong with that? Well, in a little bit we'll have a guest who says plenty.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, brought to you live by satellite from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington.

Next Tuesday is most voters' first chance to have a say in the post-September 11th America. As we've all learned, it's still a dangerous world out there. And national security isn't an issue to be melted away at the end of the Cold War.

To talk about these issues, please welcome former National Security Council spokesman and retired Air Force colonel, P.J. Crowley along with former RNC communications director, Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy.

BEGALA: Thank you both. This is a real treat to have this kind of firepower...

CARLSON: Absolutely.

BEGALA: ... on stage.

Clifford, bad news for the White House. A survey -- I live by polls; I know you don't but I do -- by the Pew Research Center came out this week. It shows President Bush at his lowest approval rating since before September 11th of 2001.

In other words, he's dropped eight points in just a month. And I think not coincidentally, support for his policies in Iraq have dropped 9 points in just a month.

Meanwhile, the president has been running around mixing politics and Iraq. It's been a big mistake hasn't it?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY: A couple of things. One is as you know his numbers are still very, very high. And in...

BEGALA: They're seven points lower than Clinton at the height of the Lewinsky thing. So I think he needs a girlfriend.

MAY: Secondly, if you look at the ABC News poll that came out this week, you will see that on any number of issues terrorism or the economy or Iraq, Republicans are simply trusted at this point more than Democrats are.

At the same time I'll acknowledge this to you, I think both parties are struggling with a way to deal with these tough issues of terrorism in Iraq in a political framework.

On the one hand these are important and -- these are issues of life and death for Americans. And so people don't want to partisanize them. And that's correct. At the same time, I think it's also important that there are some differences between various candidates in terms of their approach to the issues.

For example, as you know, more than half of the House members voted against the resolution in support of -- with the president on Iraq.

BEGALA: Right.

MAY: But every Democrat who believes he's going to run for president voted in favor of that resolution. So there's a disconnect there. And I think it's -- the voters themselves are sort of struggling with where the parties are no this.

CARLSON: Now P.J. Crowley I'm struck on the debate about Iraq just how -- not just the Democrats are wrong -- some of them aren't wrong. But just how unserious the debate has been, on how it hasn't really taken place.

Let me give you a great example, I think. This comes from Ron Kirk running for Senate in Texas. Impressive guy in some ways. Asked about Iraq and the potential war there, he said, quote, "I wonder how excited they'd be if I get to the Senate and I put forth a resolution that says the next time we go to war the first 500,000 kids have to come from families who earn a million dollars or more."

That's his position on Iraq. That quote, as you know, hurt him greatly in the race. But fundamentally, it's a frivolous, glib, stupid thing to say that doesn't get to the heart of the issue. That's a metaphor for the Democrats, isn't it?

P.J. CROWLEY, FORMER NSC SPOKESMAN: Well, I think that the -- this is going to be a very serious war.

CARLSON: Yes.

CROWLEY: And fighting door to door. It is not something that when this administration came to office they were talking about big powers. They weren't talking about Saddam Hussein. So there's a little bit of a bait and switch that's gone on here during the course of this electoral year.

All of a sudden after 9/11 Saddam becomes a problem because we can't find Osama bin Laden. We aren't winning the war on terrorism at this point.

So this has crowded out a lot of the bread and butter issues that typically are part of a mid-term congressional election.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: You think that after 9/11 it's bait and switch for priorities to change. You don't think our priorities as a nation have changed after 9/11?

CROWLEY: Now, but the administration has tried to connect Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein unsuccessfully.

MAY: The CIA has made that a connection.

CROWLEY: No, actually...

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: There are al Qaeda operatives in Iraq, says the administration. There are al Qaeda operatives in Buffalo. It might be a good idea for a regime change in New York state for example.

MAY: You're saying the relationship between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda is the same as a relationship between...

BEGALA: Let me give you an example of the bait and switch.

Tucker gave me an example before, what he thought was unserious debate on Iraq from a Senate candidate, former mayor of Dallas.

Let me show you unserious remarks from a much more serious person who ought to be more serious, our president, who the Washington Post took a look at some of the rationales he's trying to give for this war. And this is the headline they gave us. "For Books (ph) Bush, Facts are Malleable." That's a very polite way for the Washington Post to say Bush is fabricating.

Here's what they wrote. "President Bush speaking to the nation this month about the need to challenge Saddam Hussein warned that Iraq had a growing fleet of unmanned aircraft that could be used, quote, "for missions targeting the United States." Last month, asked if there were new and conclusive evidence of Hussein's nuclear capabilities, Bush sited a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Both statements were dubious if not wrong."

They weren't dubious. They were false, fabricated. They were fibs. He lied to us about war. Why should we trust him.

MAY: So you think that Saddam Hussein is not a threat to the United States. The fact that he's killed so many people...

BEGALA: No more than...

MAY: ... the fact that he's developing weapons of mass destruction, the fact that he conspires with terrorists... BEGALA: We have known that for 15 years. We know that when President Reagan was...

MAY: Indeed we did, indeed we did. In fact in 1998 as you know, Clinton rightly so signed the Iraq Liberation Act, which said we need to secure regime change because this guy is dangerous.

BEGALA: Was President Bush, was President Bush...

MAY: If it was true in '98 why isn't it true today?

BEGALA: ... was President Bush telling the truth when he said "Saddam Hussein has unmanned aircraft that can reach America?

MAY: Only our intelligence capability knows. He didn't make that up. He has intelligence -- he has reasons -- he has intelligence reasons to say it because Damon Milbank (ph) of the Washington Post...

BEGALA: They can fly a plane 6,200 miles without a pilot?

MAY: ...it's not...

BEGALA: No, they have to break it down and put it in Fed Ex and ship it to Mexico and put it back together.

MAY: You know what -- let's talk about something that's just...

BEGALA: He's just lying to us.

MAY: The point is, is this a danger to us, and do we need to do something about it?

Clinton thought so in '98. Now it's better if we haven't inspectors there in four years?

CROWLEY: Not before we had -- not before we had the war (ph) on terrorism.

MAY: The war on terrorism and the war on Saddam Hussein are not disconnected. I don't understand why you don't see that.

CROWLEY: They're not disconnected but until we -- you know, but if we can succeed in pushing out the door without radicalizing the Middle East, all well and good.

MAY: How do you push him -- for 11 years...

CROWLEY: But if the American people have made clear to the president that this is something that has to be done through the United Nations and...

MAY: Let's make news. What's the Democratic policy or your policy at least, because look Senator Lieberman, Senator Zell Miller, they're with the president on this. But your policy for getting rid of Saddam Hussein is what?

CROWLEY: Iraq in due time but not before we win...

MAY: In due...

CROWLEY: ... the war on terrorism...

MAY: You will do what in due time?

CROWLEY: The focus on Saddam is appropriate, but...

MAY: If you want to get rid of him, how are you going to do it?

CROWLEY: He's no more of a threat today than he was two years ago.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

MAY: When we changed, when Clinton said we had to get rid of him...

CROWLEY: What has changed is...

MAY: You don't think he's getting stronger? You don't think he's developing weapons of mass destruction...

CROWLEY: ... the president using this issue this year to avoid...

CARLSON: One at a time. OK.

CROWLEY: The president has used this issue this year. He's beating the drum on Saddam Hussein to avoid facing the music on the economy.

CARLSON: Let me ask you a question then, if that is in fact true, if this is all part of a wag the dog or a deluded wag the dog...

CROWLEY: I couldn't agree with you more.

CARLSON: ... wait, wait -- that means that this conspiracy has as its key players, Condoleezza Rice, the vice president, Colin Power, Donald Rumsfeld. They're all part of this conspiracy that you allege...

MAY: Every Democratic Senator who voted for the president and voted with the president...

CARLSON: ... do you realize the seriousness?

MAY: ... John Kerry, who voted with the president, Dick Gephardt.

CROWLEY: I mean Democrats have supported this president in contrast to how Republicans have treated President Clinton during similar issues back in the other administration. However, Democrats have supported...

MAY: We supported the act.

CROWLEY: ... the administration in passing this resolution as leverage to have a more effective conversation with the United Nations.

CARLSON: This conspiracy theory, you mean?

CROWLEY: No. Tucker, I like everybody else, want to see Saddam gone...

MAY: But you have no plan, no idea how to do it.

CROWLEY: My turn. However, it has to be done once-- and can be done with out undercutting the war on terrorism. That has not been proven.

BEGALA: Colonel P.J. Crowley of the Air Force and the Clinton National Security Council.

CROWLEY: Good to see you.

BEGALA: Thank you. Clifford May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy. Thank you both very much.

In a few minutes, Tucker and I will reveal our Halloween costumes this year. Probably not what you're expecting.

Next, someone thinks Halloween masks need a facelift.

Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. This is course is the evening before All Saints Day, all Hallows Eve, more commonly known as Halloween. In America, it's developed into a night for children to get dressed up, knock on doors and beg for candy.

Now a lot of us were raised to believe it's the epitome of evil to take candy away from a baby. But some people believe that Halloween itself is evil and ought to be abolished.

The Reverend Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition, rather, joins us from Jackson, Mississippi where I gather Reverend Sheldon is probably not getting ready to go out trick or treating tonight.

CARLSON: Mr. Sheldon, thanks for joining us.

THE REV. LOU SHELDON, TRADITIONAL VALUES COALITION: Yes, hi.

CARLSON: Hi. Tell me, just sum it up for me. What's evil about Halloween?

SHELDON: Well, what you have to understand is Halloween began as All Saints Day, a time in the Middle Ages where they celebrated the life of those people that had served the community, had given their life for Christ and were strong Christians like St. Paul, St. John, Mary Mother of Jesus. And today, it's come a long way. And especially, in light of what has happened with the sniper episode we've had.

Little children have to be taught and shown that to be careful out on the streets. And we don't know how many other people are out there.

And take for instance in the city of Detroit, for many years people would burn those vacated houses in areas that had been abandoned. And there was terrible fires for many years.

There was an article I believe in the New York Times just today about how they're hoping this will be the last year of this kind of Halloween in abandoned areas...

CARLSON: Wait a second.

SHELDON: ... in Detroit.

CARLSON: Wait a second, Mr. Sheldon. I mean, first of all most children who go trick or treating don't set buildings on fire. They only do that in Detroit.

Second, with all of the problems in the world, poverty and homelessness, the fact that Barbra Streisand gives her opinions in public, you name it. Why Halloween? It strikes me as pretty low on the list of ills.

SHELDON: Well, let me say this. That you have to understand, Halloween is not what it was intended to be. And so from the standpoint of talking about witches, talking about things that are not reality, going out and having little children with you dressed up doesn't really do that much for them.

I remember when my four children were growing up, they were very petrified of the mask on them at a certain age, a younger child.

With the 9/11 experience, just recently I saw on one of the national networks a psychologist who said, "Look, be careful to what extent you dress up your child because remember children are fearful especially all that they've heard about the sniper and 9/11."

BEGALA: But Reverend Sheldon, with all due respect, the cranky right wingers such as yourselves did not begin banging on Halloween after 9/11 or this sniper attack.

So let's set aside public safety where you don't have any expertise and go to theology where you clearly do. If the parent sends his kid out dressed as Sponge Bob Square Pants to mooch candy, that parent going to hell? Is the kid going to hell?

SHELDON: No, no, no. See, you're taking an extreme ultra fundamentalist viewpoint. And I didn't know you believed in those things. BEGALA: No, I'm just asking you the question, Reverend.

SHELDON: Let me give you the more rationale position.

Yes, well let me give you the more rationale position and that is, we need to celebrate people who are socially redeeming society and helping the poor and caring for people.

It isn't that these children need more sugar in their body. I remember what happened when our kids used to go out. Man, that candy would sit under the bed and for days, you know, they often would have tummy aches.

CARLSON: This doesn't really make sense...

BEGALA: Those are practical considerations that parents can decide for themselves. I'm really curious though, as a minister of the gospel...

SHELDON: That's exactly right.

BEGALA: ... one of the great leaders of the right wing conservative Christian movement in America, if you believe it is somehow satanic, as many of your fellow preachers do, to go out and trick or treat.

SHELDON: No. I think you're taking an extreme position again. You see you have to understand, what is satanic is when you introduce little children to what is a witch, and you talk to them about things of that nature by giving them a costumes. Now it is the costumes. I think it's fine to go out and having them dressed as St. Paul or St. Augustine, or Mary, mother of Jesus or Ester or Ruth or any other biblical characters.

CARLSON: Well, OK, Reverend...

SHELDON: Many churches -- you understand that many churches today are not having Halloween. They're having Holy Fests. They're doing those things...

CARLSON: OK.

SHELDON: ... that are constructive.

CARLSON: Now Mr. Sheldon, we're out of time, but tell us in one sentence, if you were to go out on Halloween tonight and beg for M&Ms, what would dress as?

SHELDON: I'm not going to do it.

CARLSON: You've taken out Option D.

SHELDON: That's like asking me if I'm going to go out and beat my wife tonight.

CARLSON: OK. Well, that's a whole different show, but we can take that after Halloween.

Reverend Lou Sheldon, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

SHELDON: Thank you. Bye bye.

Don't go away. In a minute, two surprise Halloween guests will be in the CROSSFIRE.

You won't want to miss it. It is deeply weird. We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: If you'd like to "Fireback" at CROSSFIRE, e-mail us at CROSSFIRE@CNN.com. Make sure to include your name and home town.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome President George W. Begala and former President William Jefferson Carlson.

CARLSON: Thank you, thank you.

BEGALA: Let's party.

CARLSON: Yes, sir, may I feel your pain?

QUESTION: My name is Brad Glenjack (ph). I'm a GW freshman from Coral Springs, Florida. My question is for President Bush. President Bush, if Saddam Hussein choked on a pretzel in your presence, would you help him?

BEGALA: First, dude, who cut your hair?

Just kidding. Just a little presidential humor there. No, I wouldn't spit on Saddam Hussein if his heart was on fire.

CARLSON: Yes, ma'am.

QUESTION: Yes, I'm Charlene Fernandez and I'm from Yuma, Arizona. Yeah. My question is for President Clinton. Would you please consider running for the House or the Senate, Mr. President.

CARLSON: Are you free for a drink?

BEGALA: Yes, ma'am.

That would be you. In Texas, we call people ma'am and sire.

QUESTION: Hi, I'm Jennifer from Lincoln, Nebraska. And my question for President Bush. If Dick Cheney retires, will Tucker Carlson get the nod for VP in '04?

BEGALA: I'd have to check on Tucker's resting heart rate first. I like somebody with one foot in the grave right behind me so they don't get too ambitious.

CARLSON: Yes, knife head.

QUESTION: Scott Farbish (ph), freshman at GW. President Clinton, are you jealous that two of your advisers have a hit TV show on CNN and you could not even land your own talk show on a major network?

CARLSON: I'm not surprised. They always told me what to think anyway.

BEGALA: Oh, look, it's Condi Rice.

QUESTION: Andrew Anonus (ph) from Bootham (ph), Pennsylvania, a freshman at GW. President Clinton, if you could pick one word to describe Bush and what he's doing, what would it be?

CARLSON: Excellent work.

BEGALA: I'd pick one word to describe him would reprehensible.

CARLSON: OK.

BEGALA: OK, this thing has kind of run its course.

CARLSON: Yes, I think we do. And let's go...

BEGALA: God, I feel smarter already that I've got this thing off.

CARLSON: I feel better.

BEGALA: "Paul," writes Patricia Cuder (ph) of Belleview, Washington, "Paul, Republicans have sunk to a new low. They're upset because those who honored the late Paul Wellstone dared to be passionate and political. I can think of no better tribute to a man who was clearly both."

There you go. I think this backlash is over reacting.

CARLSON: Uh, huh. OK. And next up, Richard Marsenkowski (Ph) of London, Ontario Canada writes, "Telling our citizens not to visit the U.S. as Canada has done, is about as ridiculous as having a wide open immigration policy and a dictatorial liberal government. Sorry, guess we already have that too."

And you have igloos. Yes, I feel sorry for the Canadians. That's why we give them a voice here on CROSSFIRE. The only show that lets Canada speak.

BEGALA: Canada has this odd system where the one who gets the most votes gets to run the country, which we should try here in America some time.

From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Happy Halloween.

Join us next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

See you tomorrow.

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Saddam Influence Voters?>

Aired October 31, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the ghost of campaigns past or Minnesota's senator of the future?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER MONDALE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I decided that I needed to do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Guess who is still haunting President Bush?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's a problem. He's a true threat to America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, who would take candy away from children and cancel Halloween?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to what promises to be a truly frightening Halloween edition of CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, verified sightings of Walter Mondale summoned from the political mausoleum. Also, will the most frightening boogie man around -- that would be Saddam Hussein -- affect voter's choices on Election Day? But first, be very afraid because here comes the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

For the first time in 30-odd years, Walter Mondale is cranking out the campaign for elected office in his home state of Minnesota. With a mere five days to go before the Senate election, Mondale, of course, resorted to that fantastic medium of the 1930s, radio. Later, he reached even farther back, attending a colonial-style town hall meeting. The 74-year-old told the crowd he's for peace, adding he would have voted against the Senate resolution authorizing use of force against Iraq, just like Paul Wellstone did. The audience applauded.

Mondale's plan? Pray that the United Nations can convince Saddam Hussein to become a better, more thoughtful person. Sound familiar? It's a strategy the Carter-Mondale administration used so effectively in Afghanistan and Iran. Just ask the former hostages.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Mondale is going to win that race. He's going to win big because he deserves to, because he's a man for principle. And you know, the right wing likes to say, well, he's an old guy, but, you know what, he also has old-fashioned values of principle and conviction, as opposed to Norm Coleman, who just a few years ago said I'm a Clinton/Wellstone Democrat. Now he says he's a Bush Republican.

CARLSON: He deserves it? He's been running for about 20 minutes. He deserves it? He ought to be playing golf. It's embarrassing.

BEGALA: He deserves it because he's running against a total fraud, a total phony in Norm Coleman. He's going to beat his ass like a bad piece of meat.

"The New York Times" today reports that SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt's nominee to run the accounting oversight board recently headed the audit committee of the company that stands accused of fraud. The appointee, former federal judge William Webster, told Pitt about the matter and offered to withdraw from the post. Pitt told Webster not to worry, that the SEC staff had checked it out and it was not a problem.

But "The Times" reports that the SEC never checked it out and Pitt never told his fellow commissioners before they confirmed Webster. Now, Judge Webster disclosed everything and he's got a sterling record for integrity. Harvey Pitt, who covered it up, does not. When reached (ph) for comment, President Bush said Harvey is only lying about the financial integrity of our nation, not something important like sex.

CARLSON: I think it's time to get over the whole Clinton thing. I think it's time to let go, Paul. Still I don't understand that story.

When Frank Lautenberg first ran for the Senate in 1982, age was a central issue in the campaign. Lautenberg's opponent, Republican Millicent Fenwick (ph), was 72 years old. Lautenberg's campaign implied that she might be senile. Lautenberg himself defended that 72 was too old to "get an awful lot done for New Jersey."

Fast forward 20 years. Mr. Lautenberg is again running for the Senate. If he wins, he'll be 79 by the time he's sworn in and he'll be well on his way to 90 by the end of his term. During a debate yesterday with Republican Doug Forrester, Lautenberg was asked about his attacks on Millicent Fenwick's (ph) age. Remarkably, he defended them, saying it was "perfectly appropriate to slam a woman for being five years younger than he is now."

On the other hand, it's possible that Mr. Lautenberg didn't understand the question. According to newspaper accounts, the former senator "seemed to lose his train of thought while speaking."

BEGALA: Again...

CARLSON: I feel bad. I'm not mocking him.

BEGALA: ... for the party of Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole and Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms to be attacking anybody on age is kind of laughable.

CARLSON: No, Lautenberg is the one who attacked his opponent on age.

BEGALA: And moreover, in a mid-year election -- here's a little clue -- senior citizens vote a whole lot more than the rest of us. So attacking people...

CARLSON: But not necessarily people who lose their way in mid sentence.

BEGALA: ... particularly bad strategy, Tucker.

Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee is on the verge of losing his seat to state treasurer Jimmy Lou Fisher (ph). Perhaps because Huckabee was caught accepting $23,000 in clothing and gifts from a wealthy supporter. The very same conduct that drove Robert Torricelli out of the New Jersey Senate race.

Meanwhile, Huckabee's wife, Janet Huckabee, is losing her own campaign for secretary of state. Her response? To threaten to go on a shooting spree. I am not making this up.

On page A-20 of today's "New York Times" she says, "If it wasn't for the grace of god, I would have shot a few people already." She went on to say, "Jesus wasn't liked either and Jesus was mistreated and called names." In response, the lord god released the following statement: I know Jesus. Jesus is my son. And Janet Huckabee, you're no Jesus Christ.

CARLSON: That's too bad. The Huckabees started out better than they wound up, unfortunately. I'm not going to defend that.

One of the hardest things about doing a long sentence in federal prison is thinking up a catchy slogan for your congressional campaign. A convicted felon, James Traficant of Ohio, has managed to pull it off nonetheless. "No American should fear their government," Traficant says in a new campaign ad just released. "You and I both know that many Americans fear their government."

No one knows that better than Traficant, who, thanks to the government, spends his days in a 6 x 6 box with a steel toilet. The ad was filmed the day before the former congressman was sentenced to an eight-year term for corruption. Another commercial that started running this week shows some of the building projects Mr. Traficant has supported over the years, including a courthouse and, appropriately, a federal prison. The announcer's voice intones, "Say what you want about him, but Traficant gets the job done." Say what you want about him, we at CROSSFIRE sure miss him.

BEGALA: I can't wait until they give him a furlough or something and he can come on the show. Come back Jim Traficant, we miss you and love you. But don't come back to Congress, just come back to CROSSFIRE.

Bob Ehrlich, a congressman who is the Republican nominee for governor in Maryland, is in a very close race in that state with Democrat Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. I have to say, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why in a state that saw the worst of the recent sniper attacks, Mr. Ehrlich began his campaign by calling for the repeal of several gun control measures.

Now he's announced that former Maryland Governor Marvin Mandel will advise him on how to reform state government. Mandel, in case you don't remember, not only served as governor of Maryland, he also served time in the big house for fraud. Why turn to a crook to advise you on reform? Apparently Ehrlich was planning to ask Spiro Agnew and then he found out Agnew is dead.

CARLSON: Too bad. Agnew would have made a great Democratic senator. I'll tell you -- I know, but when you're this old, you can run for Senate as a Democrat. But it turns out Kathleen Kennedy Townsend is losing because she leveraged the sniper attacks and her father's own murder for political gain, and that's disgusting.

BEGALA: She talked about a very important issue in very important way.

CARLSON: It's embarrassing.

Finally, this footnote to our show last night, when television critic Tom Shales joined us to discuss his new book about "Saturday Night Live." During the program, I quoted an article Mr. Shales recently wrote calling certain people "semi-talented geeks and pea- brained publicists."

Naturally, I assumed he was talking about talk show hosts like me. But he was not. Instead, Mr. Shales was attacking "Saturday Night Live" cast members who resisted interviews and therefore made his job difficult.

It was my mistake. And I'm sorry about that. I just assumed that all attacks are naturally aimed at talk show hosts.

BEGALA: I can't wait to read that book, though. I'm looking forward to it. I was looking at it back stage.

Well, even though it's Halloween -- and we'll get to Tucker's and my costumes in just a little bit -- there are only four days left until the election. And what could be more frightening than Republican control of the Senate to add to their control of the House, the White House and the federal courts?

So, up next, Walter Mondale carries on Paul Wellstone's memory. Here's hoping that every Democrat in America does the same thing.

And later, how a possible war with Iraq may affect voter's choices next week. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

The U.S. Senate contest in Minnesota resumed in earnest today with former Vice President Walter Mondale saying he doesn't need to apologize to anyone for his long political career and reminding voters that his experience is an asset. By that standard, our first two guests have plenty of assets and tremendous experience for a couple of handsome young bucks.

Please welcome Democratic Strategist Peter Fenn and Republican Consultant Charlie Black.

CARLSON: All right, Peter, I have had a couple of days to think about this and I think I've zeroed in on exactly...

PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It took you two days?

CARLSON: It has, actually. This has been percolating all day. I've been thinking about what bothers me about Democratic attempts to turn the death of Senator Wellstone into a political rallying cry, and it is this. It reveals a certain kind of scary level of zealotry, an idea that politics is more important than anything.

If I died and my children stood up at my funeral and said our father has died, but the most important thing is that his show continue to beat MSNBC. That's the most important thing. His legacy -- I'm serious that would be sick. There's something sick about this.

FENN: There's nothing at all sick about it. I watched all three and a half hours of that. It was an extraordinary event. Did one person go over the top? Did Kahn (ph), when he named Republican members and tried to get Republicans to vote for Democrats, crazy idea it seems to me? But this was an outpouring.

There were 20,000 people. These were political people. There's nothing unusual about that. What really bothers me, Tucker, is that you have had a former speaker of the House of Representatives on "Meet the Press," less than 48 hours after the death of Paul Wellstone, going after Walter Mondale and lying about his record.

CARLSON: Well, that's interesting, because...

FENN: That was an outrageous statement.

CARLSON: Well I'll get to that in just a minute. FENN: When he said he was for privatization and when he said he was raising the retirement age. Dead wrong.

CARLSON: We'll debate that in one second. I want to show you what Mr. Mondale himself said about the death of Senator Wellstone. It's actually one of the creepiest things I heard this week. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONDALE: So here we are grieving, all of us, all Minnesotans, and yet, in an almost unseemly way, we're required to campaign for a political office to succeed the martyred senator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: The martyred senator. Now, Peter, someone needs to remind Democrats this is not a religion, it's not a theology, it's politics. It's about running the government. You don't worship the remains of a politician. This is sick.

FENN: No, there's nothing sick about it. In fact, it seems to be contradictory to what you said earlier. But, the point is, what he's saying is here is a guy who gave his life for his country, which he did. I mean, you know, we have had these examples of people going down in airplanes, people being killed, you know, in public service.

CARLSON: It's campaign, not a battle.

FENN: I understand that. But let me make just make one point about this. Paul Wellstone was a revered man amongst an awful lot of people. He stirred up emotions strong on both sides.

And I think you did see that at the memorial service. And one of things I think that you're going to see with this Mondale campaign is a carrying of the issues, a carrying on of the mantle of Paul Wellstone, but by someone who has real serious things to offer the American people. And it will be a great campaign.

BEGALA: Charlie Black, you were one of the great geniuses behind Ronald Reagan's triumphs. And one of his great moments -- there were many -- was when he turned to Fritz Mondale in that debate in 1984 -- Reagan then was 73, Mondale today is 74 -- and some Democrats foolishly were trying to make Reagan's age an issue. And he turned to him and he said, "I'm not going to use my opponent's youth and inexperience against him."

Walter Mondale today said something very similar. Take a look. He's sounding a whole lot like your old boss, the gipper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONDALE: I don't apologize for my experience. I think it's an asset. I think the very things that our country needs right now in that Senate are the things that my experience permits me to bring to bear. We've got a serious economy, we've got international security challenges. The other things I talked about, and that's what this campaign is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: It is an enormous mistake to mock his age, isn't it?

CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Oh I don't think there's any problem with his age. I don't think there's any problem with his experience. But his experience does represent the past. You don't hear me quote...

BEGALA: Experience can't represent the future. That's a fact. I mean, ipso facto.

BLACK: But allow me parenthetically to quote Bill Clinton, which you know I don't do very often, Paul. But he said politics is always about the future and never about the past. Norm Coleman is about the future, with a vigorous, energetic candidate who is a moderate, who has proven as mayor of St. Paul that he can solve problems.

Vice President Mondale, his record in the past, very consistent, promised tax increases, promoted big government, defended budget deficits and consistently voted to cut defense spending. Now that is relevant to today's issues and today's policies. And Minnesota doesn't want any part of it.

BEGALA: Who do you think the voters has more respect for, somebody who stays true to their principles, the way that Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan and Jesse Helms did, Paul Wellstone did, or Norm Coleman, who goes from being a Clinton Democrat in 1996? My guy's state chairman of Minnesota was Norm Coleman to switching like that on a dime and being a Bush Republican? He's a fraud, isn't he?

BLACK: No, he is absolutely not.

BEGALA: He's the phoniest guy in politics today.

BLACK: He had a consistent set of principles and a moderate problem solver.

BEGALA: He's a Clinton guy, now he's a Bush guy...

BLACK: He got elected as a Democrat and then he saw the light and he changed. He's been consistent in his views. But, the other thing about -- well, how is this for principle? Mondale has said so far that he wouldn't run negative ads, that he wouldn't raise money.

Just before I came tonight, I found out the first negative radio ad against Coleman is on the air in Minnesota. And Tom Daschle is out raising money for Mondale, when they said they wouldn't do either.

(CROSSTALK)

FENN: It's not his ad, because, you know what, it's actually about free trade and he's for free trade. So whoever wrote -- and, first of all, it's a terrible ad. But I don't know where it came from. But it's not Mondale's ad

(CROSSTALK).

CARLSON: One at time. Now Peter Fenn, let me ask you this. You said he is -- I'm quoting you here now. "Walter Mondale has real serious things to offer the American people." Do you think he'll revive the debate over the ERA?

FENN: All I know is he's pro-choice now, has always been pro- choice. But you're against -- let me -- let me tell you something. I worked for Norm Coleman. I was his first consultant in his first race for mayor. Now, he was a Democrat then. And you know something?

CARLSON: Well then he hired you and it scared him...

FENN: Don't you wish? No, the interesting thing about Norm Coleman, he's a bright guy, he's an energetic guy. But, you know, this guy does not have a compass. He does not have a moral compass.

I hate to say that on the show. He doesn't. No, let me tell you something. Here's the guy who was pro -- who was pro-choice and became pro-life.

CARLSON: Good for him.

FENN: Well, good for him. He changed his views, he -- you know, he changed his views at the drop of a hat. It's unfortunate -- yes, he has. You know, he was...

CARLSON: I'm sorry to cut you off.

FENN: He was a New York radical and now he's a Minnesota conservative.

CARLSON: He's grown, Peter. And we're going to grow the second we get back. We're going to take a quick commercial break.

In a minute, we'll take you out of the land of a thousand lakes and into the land of a thousand corporate scandals. Will voters blame the Republicans?

Later, from North Korea's nukes to Saddam's germs, we'll put international worries into the CROSSFIRE. And our quote of the day, someone old enough to know better passes up the chance to remind his friends about their manners. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back.

Enron's former chief financial officer, Andrew Fastow, was indicted today on 78 counts, including fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. The White House, meanwhile, expressed confidence in SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt who, despite Democratic conspiracy theories, was not in fact involved in the Kennedy assassination and is not out to destroy the U.S. accounting industry.

Chances are, the voters can also sort fact from fiction when it comes to scandals, non-scandals and the election. We're debating all of this with Democratic Strategist Peter Fenn and Republican Consultant Charlie Black.

BEGALA: Charlie, Tucker's jokes about the Kennedy assassination notwithstanding, "The New York Times" today had a breath-taking front- page investigative piece about Harvey Pitt, the SEC chairman, misleading the Securities and Exchange Commission about the background of someone he tried to put in to run the accounting oversight board.

Senator Paul Sarbanes spoke out on this today. He is one of the least partisan Democrats on Capitol Hill. He's the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.

BEGALA: So you think -- just so that I get your grounding, do you think Paul Sarbanes is partisan the way Jesse Helms is?

BLACK: One hundred percent party loyalty.

BEGALA: Boy are you smoking something. Here is what Paul Sarbanes said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PAUL SARBANES (D), MARYLAND: The failure of the chairman to disclose to the other members of the SEC prior to the vote, I think, this information, with respect to what had transpired at the company that judge Webster was connected with, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the responsibilities of the chairman of the SEC.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Now, Harvey Pitt is a man who has misled the SEC -- according to the newspaper, misled the White House about the qualifications and the background of the man he's putting in. He's got to go.

BLACK: Well, here's what the story said. I'll even use "The New York times" fact pattern. Judge Webster told him, hey, I was on a board of company that did have some problems and is being accused of a lot of things. He had the chief accountant at the SEC, a nonpartisan career public official check it out.

He came back an said, Mr. Chairman, this is not a problem. That's the way the government...

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) actually went to everybody involved. And they said, no, nobody ever called us. They never checked it out, according to "The Times."

BLACK: The chief accountant of the SEC, again, a career civil servant, told the chairman he checked it out and there was no problem. What is Chairman Pitt supposed to do? That's the way that the government works. BEGALA: That's the way the government works under George W. Bush. If you cover up somebody's background that's OK. If you mislead even the White House...

BLACK: Why don't you go talk to the career civil servant who did this, who failed to find anything at fault with Judge Webster. Nobody in America thinks there's anything wrong with Judge Webster.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Stop. Stop. Now let's just pull back from the grassy knoll a little bit here.

Now, Peter Fenn, the thing I love -- Let's go to Enron. A little broader here. Democrats thought this was going to be a huge campaign issue, it turns out that they were right, but hasn't helped them. It's also helped Republicans. I want you to take a look at an ad being run by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts, running for governor against Shannon O'Brien (ph). Here's the spot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: But while she was treasurer, her husband was a lobbyist working for big, big contractors, and even for Enron. Under O'Brien (ph), our pension fund lost billions, including the $23 million we lost when O'Brien's (ph) people invested in Enron stock, after the government said Enron was under investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Now, that spot, I think it's pretty well done. And it's actually having an effect. I can think Colorado is another state where the corporate scandals have hurt Democrats. This is not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Democrats' benefit.

FENN: You didn't mention that Elizabeth Dole went out secretly to have a fundraiser with Kenneth Lay of Enron. I guess you wanted to leave that one off the table.

(CROSSTALK)

FENN: Oh, I see.

CARLSON: No, but you're not addressing my point, which is...

(CROSSTALK)

FENN: You mean -- you mean the man Mr. Lay, as the president used to refer to him afterwards, but Kenny he used to refer to him before?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But the point is, the public does not know that World Com gave the same amount to Democrats that it did to Republicans basically. It's just not helping Democrats. You can admit that. It's all right, Peter.

FENN: The sad part of this, and Harvey Pitt illustrates it, if you talk about fox guarding chicken coop, that's what we have here. We have the two corporate boys, the president, the vice president, the Texaco twins, who are not going to go after these guys. Not to change America.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I thought you said he was a fire-breathing partisan.

FENN: Let me just say this. Putting Harvey Pitt in charge of the SEC is like putting a pyromaniac in charge of the forest service.

BLACK: Well, I'll give you Paul Sarbanes phone number, because his committee confirmed it.

BEGALA: Because they were not being partisan, proving you wrong when you called him a fire-breathing partisan.

BLACK: They didn't investigate enough, like you're accusing Pitt I think.

BEGALA: Well, we need to get him out of there now, by god. He's lying...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACK: He hasn't done anything wrong and he's not going anywhere.

BEGALA: Of course. So it's OK -- again, the Republican view, you can't lie about sex, but you can lie about the financial integrity of accounting...

Charlie Black, Republican Consultant, thank you very much. Peter Fenn, Democratic Strategist, guys, thanks a lot for a fun debate.

You won't believe, though, who Tucker Carlson is going to dress up as for Halloween this year. If you stay tuned, you'll get a little peek.

Also, we'll have a guest who isn't bothering to celebrate Halloween and thinks you shouldn't either. Next, though, our quote of the day. It ought to be the last word about all this Republicans carping about the late Paul Wellstone's memorial service, and I think it will be. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back. Try as he might to change the subject with negative advertising, Walter Mondale can't seem to get away from his fellow Democrats embarrassing, shameful behavior during Tuesday night's memorial service for Paul Wellstone.

Minnesota Republicans are demanding equal time from television stations that carried what was supposed to be a tribute that turned into a Democratic Party campaign rally complete with booing of Republicans.

Given a chance to denounce such ugly behavior as many other Democrats have, Mondale instead choose to earn our quote of the day.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONDALE: This unbelievable event heard from speakers who were talking about loves ones in their family who had lost their lives. They were not censored in what they had to say. And some of them -- at least some of them maybe went a little bit over the line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Well, just admit that it was embarrassing. Lots of Democrats in Minnesota are embarrassed and ashamed this happened. Just admit that it was wrong.

I mean, I don't know why that's so hard.

BEGALA: Why do Republicans want to control everybody's life in every way. Now you're going to try to tell these people how to...

CARLSON: What...

BEGALA: ... grieve? They lost their loved ones. Paul Wellstone was a politics and to...

CARLSON: And so they agitate for Democrats to be elected. That's disgusting. Can't you see why that's disgusting?

BEGALA: You know what, at Louis Armstrong, they played jazz.

CARLSON: Jazz is not politics.

BEGALA: You know, that's what he...

CARLSON: Politics is low. This is unbelievable. Don't they see that something are more important than politics like life and death. Even at a funeral -- ugh.

BEGALA: Do all funerals need to run by the Carlson department of funeral etiquette here?

CARLSON: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. You shouldn't boo people...

BEGALA: Let these people mourn...

CARLSON: ... on partisan grounds at a funeral.

BEGALA: Of course you shouldn't and everybody -- Senator Mondale just said that too. Of course you shouldn't. That was across the line, as Mondale just said.

CARLSON: I wish he had said it.

BEGALA: But don't tell people how to grieve.

CARLSON: I'm not telling them...

BEGALA: In a minute we will go looking for campaign issues over the horizon and outside of America's borders. And also, much closer to home, tonight is the night little ghosts and goblins go ringing doorbells in search of treats.

What in the world can be wrong with that? Well, in a little bit we'll have a guest who says plenty.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, brought to you live by satellite from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington.

Next Tuesday is most voters' first chance to have a say in the post-September 11th America. As we've all learned, it's still a dangerous world out there. And national security isn't an issue to be melted away at the end of the Cold War.

To talk about these issues, please welcome former National Security Council spokesman and retired Air Force colonel, P.J. Crowley along with former RNC communications director, Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy.

BEGALA: Thank you both. This is a real treat to have this kind of firepower...

CARLSON: Absolutely.

BEGALA: ... on stage.

Clifford, bad news for the White House. A survey -- I live by polls; I know you don't but I do -- by the Pew Research Center came out this week. It shows President Bush at his lowest approval rating since before September 11th of 2001.

In other words, he's dropped eight points in just a month. And I think not coincidentally, support for his policies in Iraq have dropped 9 points in just a month.

Meanwhile, the president has been running around mixing politics and Iraq. It's been a big mistake hasn't it?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY: A couple of things. One is as you know his numbers are still very, very high. And in...

BEGALA: They're seven points lower than Clinton at the height of the Lewinsky thing. So I think he needs a girlfriend.

MAY: Secondly, if you look at the ABC News poll that came out this week, you will see that on any number of issues terrorism or the economy or Iraq, Republicans are simply trusted at this point more than Democrats are.

At the same time I'll acknowledge this to you, I think both parties are struggling with a way to deal with these tough issues of terrorism in Iraq in a political framework.

On the one hand these are important and -- these are issues of life and death for Americans. And so people don't want to partisanize them. And that's correct. At the same time, I think it's also important that there are some differences between various candidates in terms of their approach to the issues.

For example, as you know, more than half of the House members voted against the resolution in support of -- with the president on Iraq.

BEGALA: Right.

MAY: But every Democrat who believes he's going to run for president voted in favor of that resolution. So there's a disconnect there. And I think it's -- the voters themselves are sort of struggling with where the parties are no this.

CARLSON: Now P.J. Crowley I'm struck on the debate about Iraq just how -- not just the Democrats are wrong -- some of them aren't wrong. But just how unserious the debate has been, on how it hasn't really taken place.

Let me give you a great example, I think. This comes from Ron Kirk running for Senate in Texas. Impressive guy in some ways. Asked about Iraq and the potential war there, he said, quote, "I wonder how excited they'd be if I get to the Senate and I put forth a resolution that says the next time we go to war the first 500,000 kids have to come from families who earn a million dollars or more."

That's his position on Iraq. That quote, as you know, hurt him greatly in the race. But fundamentally, it's a frivolous, glib, stupid thing to say that doesn't get to the heart of the issue. That's a metaphor for the Democrats, isn't it?

P.J. CROWLEY, FORMER NSC SPOKESMAN: Well, I think that the -- this is going to be a very serious war.

CARLSON: Yes.

CROWLEY: And fighting door to door. It is not something that when this administration came to office they were talking about big powers. They weren't talking about Saddam Hussein. So there's a little bit of a bait and switch that's gone on here during the course of this electoral year.

All of a sudden after 9/11 Saddam becomes a problem because we can't find Osama bin Laden. We aren't winning the war on terrorism at this point.

So this has crowded out a lot of the bread and butter issues that typically are part of a mid-term congressional election.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: You think that after 9/11 it's bait and switch for priorities to change. You don't think our priorities as a nation have changed after 9/11?

CROWLEY: Now, but the administration has tried to connect Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein unsuccessfully.

MAY: The CIA has made that a connection.

CROWLEY: No, actually...

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: There are al Qaeda operatives in Iraq, says the administration. There are al Qaeda operatives in Buffalo. It might be a good idea for a regime change in New York state for example.

MAY: You're saying the relationship between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda is the same as a relationship between...

BEGALA: Let me give you an example of the bait and switch.

Tucker gave me an example before, what he thought was unserious debate on Iraq from a Senate candidate, former mayor of Dallas.

Let me show you unserious remarks from a much more serious person who ought to be more serious, our president, who the Washington Post took a look at some of the rationales he's trying to give for this war. And this is the headline they gave us. "For Books (ph) Bush, Facts are Malleable." That's a very polite way for the Washington Post to say Bush is fabricating.

Here's what they wrote. "President Bush speaking to the nation this month about the need to challenge Saddam Hussein warned that Iraq had a growing fleet of unmanned aircraft that could be used, quote, "for missions targeting the United States." Last month, asked if there were new and conclusive evidence of Hussein's nuclear capabilities, Bush sited a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Both statements were dubious if not wrong."

They weren't dubious. They were false, fabricated. They were fibs. He lied to us about war. Why should we trust him.

MAY: So you think that Saddam Hussein is not a threat to the United States. The fact that he's killed so many people...

BEGALA: No more than...

MAY: ... the fact that he's developing weapons of mass destruction, the fact that he conspires with terrorists... BEGALA: We have known that for 15 years. We know that when President Reagan was...

MAY: Indeed we did, indeed we did. In fact in 1998 as you know, Clinton rightly so signed the Iraq Liberation Act, which said we need to secure regime change because this guy is dangerous.

BEGALA: Was President Bush, was President Bush...

MAY: If it was true in '98 why isn't it true today?

BEGALA: ... was President Bush telling the truth when he said "Saddam Hussein has unmanned aircraft that can reach America?

MAY: Only our intelligence capability knows. He didn't make that up. He has intelligence -- he has reasons -- he has intelligence reasons to say it because Damon Milbank (ph) of the Washington Post...

BEGALA: They can fly a plane 6,200 miles without a pilot?

MAY: ...it's not...

BEGALA: No, they have to break it down and put it in Fed Ex and ship it to Mexico and put it back together.

MAY: You know what -- let's talk about something that's just...

BEGALA: He's just lying to us.

MAY: The point is, is this a danger to us, and do we need to do something about it?

Clinton thought so in '98. Now it's better if we haven't inspectors there in four years?

CROWLEY: Not before we had -- not before we had the war (ph) on terrorism.

MAY: The war on terrorism and the war on Saddam Hussein are not disconnected. I don't understand why you don't see that.

CROWLEY: They're not disconnected but until we -- you know, but if we can succeed in pushing out the door without radicalizing the Middle East, all well and good.

MAY: How do you push him -- for 11 years...

CROWLEY: But if the American people have made clear to the president that this is something that has to be done through the United Nations and...

MAY: Let's make news. What's the Democratic policy or your policy at least, because look Senator Lieberman, Senator Zell Miller, they're with the president on this. But your policy for getting rid of Saddam Hussein is what?

CROWLEY: Iraq in due time but not before we win...

MAY: In due...

CROWLEY: ... the war on terrorism...

MAY: You will do what in due time?

CROWLEY: The focus on Saddam is appropriate, but...

MAY: If you want to get rid of him, how are you going to do it?

CROWLEY: He's no more of a threat today than he was two years ago.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

MAY: When we changed, when Clinton said we had to get rid of him...

CROWLEY: What has changed is...

MAY: You don't think he's getting stronger? You don't think he's developing weapons of mass destruction...

CROWLEY: ... the president using this issue this year to avoid...

CARLSON: One at a time. OK.

CROWLEY: The president has used this issue this year. He's beating the drum on Saddam Hussein to avoid facing the music on the economy.

CARLSON: Let me ask you a question then, if that is in fact true, if this is all part of a wag the dog or a deluded wag the dog...

CROWLEY: I couldn't agree with you more.

CARLSON: ... wait, wait -- that means that this conspiracy has as its key players, Condoleezza Rice, the vice president, Colin Power, Donald Rumsfeld. They're all part of this conspiracy that you allege...

MAY: Every Democratic Senator who voted for the president and voted with the president...

CARLSON: ... do you realize the seriousness?

MAY: ... John Kerry, who voted with the president, Dick Gephardt.

CROWLEY: I mean Democrats have supported this president in contrast to how Republicans have treated President Clinton during similar issues back in the other administration. However, Democrats have supported...

MAY: We supported the act.

CROWLEY: ... the administration in passing this resolution as leverage to have a more effective conversation with the United Nations.

CARLSON: This conspiracy theory, you mean?

CROWLEY: No. Tucker, I like everybody else, want to see Saddam gone...

MAY: But you have no plan, no idea how to do it.

CROWLEY: My turn. However, it has to be done once-- and can be done with out undercutting the war on terrorism. That has not been proven.

BEGALA: Colonel P.J. Crowley of the Air Force and the Clinton National Security Council.

CROWLEY: Good to see you.

BEGALA: Thank you. Clifford May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy. Thank you both very much.

In a few minutes, Tucker and I will reveal our Halloween costumes this year. Probably not what you're expecting.

Next, someone thinks Halloween masks need a facelift.

Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. This is course is the evening before All Saints Day, all Hallows Eve, more commonly known as Halloween. In America, it's developed into a night for children to get dressed up, knock on doors and beg for candy.

Now a lot of us were raised to believe it's the epitome of evil to take candy away from a baby. But some people believe that Halloween itself is evil and ought to be abolished.

The Reverend Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition, rather, joins us from Jackson, Mississippi where I gather Reverend Sheldon is probably not getting ready to go out trick or treating tonight.

CARLSON: Mr. Sheldon, thanks for joining us.

THE REV. LOU SHELDON, TRADITIONAL VALUES COALITION: Yes, hi.

CARLSON: Hi. Tell me, just sum it up for me. What's evil about Halloween?

SHELDON: Well, what you have to understand is Halloween began as All Saints Day, a time in the Middle Ages where they celebrated the life of those people that had served the community, had given their life for Christ and were strong Christians like St. Paul, St. John, Mary Mother of Jesus. And today, it's come a long way. And especially, in light of what has happened with the sniper episode we've had.

Little children have to be taught and shown that to be careful out on the streets. And we don't know how many other people are out there.

And take for instance in the city of Detroit, for many years people would burn those vacated houses in areas that had been abandoned. And there was terrible fires for many years.

There was an article I believe in the New York Times just today about how they're hoping this will be the last year of this kind of Halloween in abandoned areas...

CARLSON: Wait a second.

SHELDON: ... in Detroit.

CARLSON: Wait a second, Mr. Sheldon. I mean, first of all most children who go trick or treating don't set buildings on fire. They only do that in Detroit.

Second, with all of the problems in the world, poverty and homelessness, the fact that Barbra Streisand gives her opinions in public, you name it. Why Halloween? It strikes me as pretty low on the list of ills.

SHELDON: Well, let me say this. That you have to understand, Halloween is not what it was intended to be. And so from the standpoint of talking about witches, talking about things that are not reality, going out and having little children with you dressed up doesn't really do that much for them.

I remember when my four children were growing up, they were very petrified of the mask on them at a certain age, a younger child.

With the 9/11 experience, just recently I saw on one of the national networks a psychologist who said, "Look, be careful to what extent you dress up your child because remember children are fearful especially all that they've heard about the sniper and 9/11."

BEGALA: But Reverend Sheldon, with all due respect, the cranky right wingers such as yourselves did not begin banging on Halloween after 9/11 or this sniper attack.

So let's set aside public safety where you don't have any expertise and go to theology where you clearly do. If the parent sends his kid out dressed as Sponge Bob Square Pants to mooch candy, that parent going to hell? Is the kid going to hell?

SHELDON: No, no, no. See, you're taking an extreme ultra fundamentalist viewpoint. And I didn't know you believed in those things. BEGALA: No, I'm just asking you the question, Reverend.

SHELDON: Let me give you the more rationale position.

Yes, well let me give you the more rationale position and that is, we need to celebrate people who are socially redeeming society and helping the poor and caring for people.

It isn't that these children need more sugar in their body. I remember what happened when our kids used to go out. Man, that candy would sit under the bed and for days, you know, they often would have tummy aches.

CARLSON: This doesn't really make sense...

BEGALA: Those are practical considerations that parents can decide for themselves. I'm really curious though, as a minister of the gospel...

SHELDON: That's exactly right.

BEGALA: ... one of the great leaders of the right wing conservative Christian movement in America, if you believe it is somehow satanic, as many of your fellow preachers do, to go out and trick or treat.

SHELDON: No. I think you're taking an extreme position again. You see you have to understand, what is satanic is when you introduce little children to what is a witch, and you talk to them about things of that nature by giving them a costumes. Now it is the costumes. I think it's fine to go out and having them dressed as St. Paul or St. Augustine, or Mary, mother of Jesus or Ester or Ruth or any other biblical characters.

CARLSON: Well, OK, Reverend...

SHELDON: Many churches -- you understand that many churches today are not having Halloween. They're having Holy Fests. They're doing those things...

CARLSON: OK.

SHELDON: ... that are constructive.

CARLSON: Now Mr. Sheldon, we're out of time, but tell us in one sentence, if you were to go out on Halloween tonight and beg for M&Ms, what would dress as?

SHELDON: I'm not going to do it.

CARLSON: You've taken out Option D.

SHELDON: That's like asking me if I'm going to go out and beat my wife tonight.

CARLSON: OK. Well, that's a whole different show, but we can take that after Halloween.

Reverend Lou Sheldon, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

SHELDON: Thank you. Bye bye.

Don't go away. In a minute, two surprise Halloween guests will be in the CROSSFIRE.

You won't want to miss it. It is deeply weird. We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: If you'd like to "Fireback" at CROSSFIRE, e-mail us at CROSSFIRE@CNN.com. Make sure to include your name and home town.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome President George W. Begala and former President William Jefferson Carlson.

CARLSON: Thank you, thank you.

BEGALA: Let's party.

CARLSON: Yes, sir, may I feel your pain?

QUESTION: My name is Brad Glenjack (ph). I'm a GW freshman from Coral Springs, Florida. My question is for President Bush. President Bush, if Saddam Hussein choked on a pretzel in your presence, would you help him?

BEGALA: First, dude, who cut your hair?

Just kidding. Just a little presidential humor there. No, I wouldn't spit on Saddam Hussein if his heart was on fire.

CARLSON: Yes, ma'am.

QUESTION: Yes, I'm Charlene Fernandez and I'm from Yuma, Arizona. Yeah. My question is for President Clinton. Would you please consider running for the House or the Senate, Mr. President.

CARLSON: Are you free for a drink?

BEGALA: Yes, ma'am.

That would be you. In Texas, we call people ma'am and sire.

QUESTION: Hi, I'm Jennifer from Lincoln, Nebraska. And my question for President Bush. If Dick Cheney retires, will Tucker Carlson get the nod for VP in '04?

BEGALA: I'd have to check on Tucker's resting heart rate first. I like somebody with one foot in the grave right behind me so they don't get too ambitious.

CARLSON: Yes, knife head.

QUESTION: Scott Farbish (ph), freshman at GW. President Clinton, are you jealous that two of your advisers have a hit TV show on CNN and you could not even land your own talk show on a major network?

CARLSON: I'm not surprised. They always told me what to think anyway.

BEGALA: Oh, look, it's Condi Rice.

QUESTION: Andrew Anonus (ph) from Bootham (ph), Pennsylvania, a freshman at GW. President Clinton, if you could pick one word to describe Bush and what he's doing, what would it be?

CARLSON: Excellent work.

BEGALA: I'd pick one word to describe him would reprehensible.

CARLSON: OK.

BEGALA: OK, this thing has kind of run its course.

CARLSON: Yes, I think we do. And let's go...

BEGALA: God, I feel smarter already that I've got this thing off.

CARLSON: I feel better.

BEGALA: "Paul," writes Patricia Cuder (ph) of Belleview, Washington, "Paul, Republicans have sunk to a new low. They're upset because those who honored the late Paul Wellstone dared to be passionate and political. I can think of no better tribute to a man who was clearly both."

There you go. I think this backlash is over reacting.

CARLSON: Uh, huh. OK. And next up, Richard Marsenkowski (Ph) of London, Ontario Canada writes, "Telling our citizens not to visit the U.S. as Canada has done, is about as ridiculous as having a wide open immigration policy and a dictatorial liberal government. Sorry, guess we already have that too."

And you have igloos. Yes, I feel sorry for the Canadians. That's why we give them a voice here on CROSSFIRE. The only show that lets Canada speak.

BEGALA: Canada has this odd system where the one who gets the most votes gets to run the country, which we should try here in America some time.

From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Happy Halloween.

Join us next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

See you tomorrow.

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