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CNN Crossfire

Republicans Take Control of Congress; Gephardt Will Not Seek Another Term as Minority Leader

Aired November 06, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: to the victors go the spoils.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think there's no question that last night's results increased the likelihood of getting things done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: So much of what we need to do is obvious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus spoil the Election Day for the Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK GEPHARDT (D-MO), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: This is a unique election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNER: And who's spoiling for a fight over control of the party?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm very confident I'm here for a couple of more years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, without spoiling the surprise, what did CROSSFIRE have to do with the funniest moment of Election Day 2002?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE and Washington's brave new world. Suddenly, the GOP runs the entire federal government, the White House and both chambers of Congress. What will Republicans do with their newfound power?

We'll ask that question tonight and then we'll gloat. Where did Democrats go so terribly wrong? Can they ever recover, and what does this mean for 2004 presidential race, which officially begins today.

We'll begin with some breaking news on Capitol Hill, though. Perhaps some of the first fall (ph) of the Democrat's election disaster. Here is CNN Congressional Correspondent Kate Snow.

Kate, I love what the Democrats did last night, but apparently there have been recriminations. Tell us about it.

KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it might not have sat so well, although this decision may be a little independent of yesterday. We're still trying to sort out the motivation behind the decision. But the decision, according to two Democratic sources close to Dick Gephardt, the House Minority Leader right now, he will announce tomorrow morning that he will no longer run -- he will not run to be the minority leader when they have another election next week.

That's a Democratic internal election in the House for the next minority leader. He will announce tomorrow, according to sources, that he won't seek reelection as the Democratic leader. Now, Mr. Gephardt, we're told, is making calls to other members now, some of his closer friends here on Capitol Hill, to tell them about his decision.

He spent the day at his home in Washington discussing his political future, we're told, with his family and with close advisors. Now, the decision comes as many were speculating about what Mr. Gephardt would do. We're told that some members had called him today and told him, stay with it, be our minority leader, you can run for president down the road.

I'm also told by several Democrats that they were urging him not to run for minority leader, to be precise about that. Peter Deutsch from Florida, Harold Ford Jr., from Tennessee, two of the Democrats I talked to today that said that Gephardt can't do the job of both things at once. He can't be minority leader and run for president, so he ought to step down.

I'm told by sources close to Gephardt that that was not what motivated him, Tucker, to make this decision. That he hasn't been listening to people like Peter Deutsch and Harold Ford, but rather that he contemplated the decision all day today and decided simply that the timing is right, that it's time to get out of the way so that the race can be conducted between two other Democrats who are already in the wings, the number two Democrat, Nancy Pelosi and the number three, Martin Frost, who, by the way, has already scheduled a press conference for tomorrow morning to announce that he intends to run for minority leader -- Tucker.

CARLSON: I love it. It's a great story. Kate Snow, you reported it very well. We appreciate it. Thank you.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Thanks, Kate.

CARLSON: Time now to return to our political hangover show which, of course, begins as it always do with our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

For those of you keeping score at home, these are the numbers from the midterm election. The new lineup in the House of Representatives will consist of at least 226 Republicans, up from the current total of 223, with four races still undecided. In the Senate, come January, the Republicans will hold at least 51 seats. It could be even more if South Dakota's expected recount braces Democrat Tim Johnson's 527-vote lead.

There's also next month's runoff in Louisiana. If Republican Suzanne Terrell beats vulnerable Democratic incumbent, Mary Landrieu, the Republican majority will be, of course, even larger. We'll keep you up to date on that important race. We may even find it necessary to travel to New Orleans to cover it first hand.

BEGALA: Now that I would love to do. CROSSFIRE from the French Quarter. You all want to come with us? Let's go, right of the bus, Tucker. We're heading to New Orleans.

Well, in a colder climate in South Dakota, the Senate race in that state there was a bit of a proxy war between our President, George W. Bush, and our Senate Majority Leader, Tom Daschle, on what was otherwise a very good night of course for Mr. Bush. Daschle appears to have handed him a narrow but nonetheless stinging defeat in South Dakota.

Like other members of the Democratic accommodationist wing, junior Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota voted with Bush on his tax cut and voted with him on his march to war in Iraq. But while others who voted with him went down to defeat yesterday, the personal appeal of Tom Daschle, one of the few Democrats with the courage to stand up to Mr. Bush with great consistency and courage seems to have saved Tim Johnson's job in the Senate.

So, my point is they're standing up to Bush in a state where he got over 60 percent of the vote for president and has an approval rating of 78 percent works, imagine how it would work in a less Republican leaning state. A thought for the Democrats.

CARLSON: I love this idea that America is crying out desperately for the politics of Barbra Streisand. The Democrats need to go...

BEGALA: Tom Daschle. Get up, stand up.

CARLSON: No, I mean I actually think it's a wonderful strategy. I applaud it. And I hope you employ it -- Al Sharpton, 2004. There's always a story in New Jersey and tonight is no different. Disgraced Democratic Senator Robert Torricelli now says he would have won if he hadn't given up his race for reelection last month. Torricelli, you'll recall -- we're not making this up, by the way -- dropped out because polls showed he was getting clobbered by Republican Doug Forrester, who, alas, ended up getting clobbered by Torricelli's replacement, the soon to be 79-year-old Frank Lautenberg.

Perhaps you can see Torricelli's logic. If lautenberg could win, anyone could win. However, unlike Torricelli, Lautenberg was never accused of having close friends in organized crime. He was never caught in surveillance tapes in the company of three "waste management consultants." Nor, of course, was he reprimanded by the Senate Ethics Committee. But, of course, there's still time.

Lautenberg has six years to embarrass the state. Good luck, Frank Lautenberg.

BEGALA: Frank is one of the wealthiest men in America. He was the founder of ADP, Automated Data Processing. And, know what, he's against Bush's tax cut for the rich. He made that an issue in New Jersey and he won. Another good lesson for the Democrats. Good for Frank Lautenberg -- congratulations, Frank.

A moment ago Tucker mentioned Barbra Streisand in his usual derogatory way. Point of fact, Barbra Streisand is the only artist ever to earn the Oscar, the Tony, the Emmy, the Grammy, the Golden Globe, the Cable Ace, the Peabody, the American Film Institute's Life Achievement Award and the presidential medal of the art. Maybe she does actually know something, because I think she deserves a Poli (ph) as well for her political strategy.

See, Streisand has long advised Democrats to vigorously oppose President Bush's economic and social policies, especially his tax cut for the rich, even though, of course, Streisand herself would benefit from it. For that, she's been the object of a rabid right-wing attack, focused mostly on a memo that she sent to House Democratic Leader Dick Gephardt, which did have some typos in it, courtesy of a young aide to whom she apparently dictated it.

The memo argued for stronger Democratic opposition to Bush's rush to war in Iraq. Sadly, leader Gephardt ignored Streisand's advice, as did too many other Democrats, many of whom now face the daunting task of looking for work during the Bush recession. History is history. She was right, you were wrong.

CARLSON: I admit I made fun of the fact that Barbra Streisand is the Democratic Party's intellectual leader, but I didn't know she won a Tony award and a Cable Ace. That's remarkable.

BEGALA: Your party's leader, Jerry Falwell, he never won nothing, unless something he rigged maybe.

CARLSON: That's not true. And I do hope that you're at least getting dinner out of this at Barbra's house, because it's so embarrassing. BEGALA: We'll invite you and Jerry Falwell to join us.

CARLSON: I would love to come. I'm not sure I want the Reverend Falwell to come.

BEGALA: I'd come.

CARLSON: Somewhere, the captain of the Titanic is smiling down at Democratic Party Chairman Terry McAuliffe. Not only is he still at the helm and was this morning, he was still assuring passengers to remain calm. Even as water poured over the rails, McAuliffe went on the morning shows to explain how the public will be tremendously impressed with his party's gain in certain governorships. Though, of course, the GOP still has most of them.

Of course, as morning dawned, the Republicans were also totaling up midterm election gains never before seen in U.S. history, making plans to control both houses of Congress and even measuring governors' mansions in Maryland and Georgia, something no one had ever imagined possible. Captain McAuliffe, the Republican iceberg salutes you.

BEGALA: Midterm gains never before seen in American history?

CARLSON: No party has ever taken the Senate back in the midterm.

BEGALA: No party has gained seats in an off year since the last midterm. Look, you guys, you pick up, what, three seats in the House and two seats in the Senate and you get your panties in a wad. And you all have a celebration. You need a party, go out and have one, but this is a little...

CARLSON: If you're going to argue this want a tidal wave, be my guest, Paul. You're a minority of one.

BEGALA: Not a good day for my guys, but no. I don't think three seats is exactly a tidal wave.

CARLSON: They took back the Senate. That's a big deal.

BEGALA: Well, you know what else happened last night? As everybody else was covering the election returns, Harvey Pitt announced that he would resign. So the question is, who will President Bush tap to mismanage the agency that Harvey Pitt has now left -- the Securities and Exchange Commission?

Well, incredibly, according to today's "New York Times," the short list includes former SEC Chair Richard Breeden and former SEC General Counsel, James Doty, the two men who cleared George W. Bush of insider trading charges back when they ran the SEC and W's daddy was president.

Of course, they cleared Bush from insider trading charges without ever interviewing Bush, without ever interviewing his firm's CEO or any other officer or any other director of the company. Bush said that he sold his stock as an insider with the approval of attorneys. But a recently uncovered memo proves otherwise. Bush and other insiders were, in fact, warned by lawyers in writing not to sell. Bush sold anyway. And the SEC cleared Bush without even reading the incriminating memo. White House aides say that others on their short list for the SEC include Martha Stewart, Ken Lay and Mr. Magoo.

CARLSON: You know, every night we relive Harken on the set here.

BEGALA: Oh, we have not yet begun to -- insider trading.

CARLSON: It doesn't bother me, actually, because, A, I still don't understand what in the world you're talking about, and, B, I know that voters don't either. And I must say, running against Harvey Pitt has turned out to be -- I hope you keep doing it -- a colossal disaster.

BEGALA: I ain't running against Harvey Pitt. I'm running against George W. Bush, and I ain't going to stop. Your idea of a scandal is insider dating. I think insider trading is a much bigger deal, Tucker.

CARLSON: I have no idea what you're talking about.

BEGALA: The difference between the two parties, I guess.

Well, coming up, we'll continue this debate and have a closer look at my party's strategy and how it worked out in the midterm election. Not very well, of course. There are some painful lessons that we will learn. Maybe this candidate for 2004 ought to sit up and pay a little attention to.

Then later, instead of the quote of the day, we're going to break tradition at CROSSFIRE and have a political picture of the day, starting with a very familiar figure to viewers of this show. You're not going to want to miss this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

You know, there's no getting around the fact that the 2002 midterm congressional elections yesterday were not exactly a great day for the Democratic Party. But, like the San Francisco Giants are probably saying, wait till next year. Or I guess in politics that means wait for two years.

Here to talk about strategy for the next two years, two of the best former congressmen both and also the Gore campaign chairman, Tony Coelho, and former Pennsylvania Congressman, Republican Bob Walker. Gentlemen, welcome back. Good to see you.

CARLSON: Thanks for joining us. Tony Coelho, I'm really...

TONY COELHO, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: You're really stuck on Barbra Streisand. CARLSON: I must say, I love Barbra Streisand. She really is the new Jane Fonda. I love her, I hope you all run on her. I think she's marvelous.

COELHO: And you know what I love? I love the fact that you like Jerry Falwell and you want to put Jerry Falwell up against Barbra Streisand.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: I'm not even sure who Jerry Falwell is. But Barbra Streisand is running your party.

COELHO: Most people know who Barbra is. That's what's great. We'll put Jerry and Barbra together.

CARLSON: Well you keep bragging about it. Let me show you one of the most interesting polls I've seen in a long time. This is a CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll taken right before the election and asked voters, what's the most important issue to you? Number one, the economy. Actually not even close. Education comes in at 17, Iraq comes in at 16, terrorism at 13.

I thought, I know Democrats thought and I actually bought it, I'll admit it, are that concerns about the economy would help Democrats. But it turns out they didn't. People are worried about the economy but they didn't blame President Bush. Why do you think that is?

COELHO: I think that George Bush conducted one of the most astute campaigns that we've seen in a long time. I think he was willing to take what he has and parlayed it into more gains. Not a lot of politicians are willing to do that. He did it.

It was a risk, he did it, he deserves credit. He won last night. Let's get that out of the way. There's no doubt about it, it was a great victory.

But let's just move on. I mean the economy was a problem yesterday. You know what, Tucker, it's going to be a problem tomorrow. It's going to be a problem next year.

And we want to see how you guys handle it. That's going to be the issue going forward. That's what's going on here.

Victory, pat yourself on the back. I'll even pat yourself on the back. I thought it was a spectacular victory.

CARLSON: I think it's absolutely fair -- it's more than fair -- to ask the party in power, this party, the Republicans very much in power now, to be accountable for what they do. And, to some extent, to be accountable for the economy. But I still don't understand why Democratic attempts to link Bush to a falling or hurting economy didn't work.

COELHO: Well, I think it was spectacular strategy on their part. And they pursued the other issues. Iraq, they pursued the Department of Homeland Security and all that stuff. They pursued all these things. Wonderful strategy. And it worked. And I don't have trouble with that.

I love politics and I love the game. And it worked. The question is, they have to now live with what they won and the economy is still there. It is still the number one issue.

And I'll tell you what, in two years, these people who he brought in yesterday on his coattails, they're going to have to defend the next two years. I hope for them the economy turns around, I hope for the American people it turns around. But if it doesn't, it's payback time.

BEGALA: Bob Walker, I want to second what Tony said, congratulations to you and your party on a well-run campaign, a well executed strategy. And now that you have power, certainly not absolute, we have checks and balances. But I mean you control the House, you control the Senate, you control the White house, you damn sure control the federal judiciary, we learned that in the last election.

What are you going to do with it? Let me suggest a few things. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," the program that precedes this is a fabulous show. It gives me insights every day into the business word. One of the things they reported is that today, on the stock market, the following sectors moved up on news of the election: tobacco stocks, asbestos stocks, chemical stocks, oil stocks, insurance stocks. You guys are now going to have to pay back every one of those sleaze bag special interests that financed these campaigns, aren't you, Bob?

BOB WALKER, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: No, I don't think so at all. I think what we're going to do, we're going to look at an economic program that makes sense. And one of the first things that you can do now with Republican majorities in both the House and the Senate is get terrorism insurance passed.

The fact is that passing terrorism insurance would make a lot of sense toward taking off one of the overloads in the economy that's stopping the building boom from taking off. And so it seems to me that there are a number of things we can do. I think we will make some substantial tax reforms and I think that they will be beneficial to the country and to average working people.

BEGALA: Will they include particular tax breaks for corporations?

WALKER: I think what one of the things we'll do is to make the tax cuts permanent that have now been put in place, and thereby give people some confidence that their tax status is not going to change as a result of things running out in the future. And I think that will be a positive help to the economy.

BEGALA: But that wasn't the question, though, sir. With all due respect, the question was, will Republicans pay back their special interest supporters with special tax breaks for particular corporations or sectors?

WALKER: Well, I think we will look at overall business taxes and find out whether or not there are things that need to be done to take off the overload of regulation and taxation for companies. But I don't think it will be aimed at particular sectors. I'm sure that some of it will get defined that way because that's the nature of politics. But the bottom line is it will be a general attempt to take business out of the doldrums and make us more competitive in a global economy.

The problem is right now that we're becoming more and more uncompetitive in the global economy. I just finished a study for President Bush on the status of the aerospace industry. The aerospace industry is gradually becoming more and more uncompetitive, and this is an industry that we depend upon for our exports. Now, it seems to me that doing some things to help shore up that business would make a lot of sense.

CARLSON: Tony Coelho, I want to put a quote on the screen. Everyone is beating up on Terry McAuliffe, obviously for a good reason. This is a quote from him. I think it's important, though. I think it's a metaphor for everything that went wrong in this midterm.

This is Terry McAuliffe to "The New York Times." "Jeb is gone. There won't be anything as devastating to President Bush as his brother's losing Florida."

Now, here's the problem have I with that quote. I mean it's obviously fair for the party chairman to want to win races, right, but the explanation for why he wants to win in Florida in that quote is the same one he was giving every day up until yesterday. This is the president's brother. He was senselessly personalizing it.

He wasn't attacking Jeb for his policies or necessarily for what he's done as the governor of Florida, but simply because he's the president's brother. It's childish, it's stupid and it says everything that's wrong with the way Democrats approach politics.

COELHO: The question is childish, because what is the truth here is that, Terry, if you listened to him, Terry basically talked about what happened two years and legitimately concerned about what happened in Florida two years ago. That's his right as party chairman.

Terry also was concerned about the education program in Florida. His right as party chairman. And the Democratic candidate made that an issue as well. Terry was also concerned about what was going on in the economy down there. He happens to own business in Florida

CARLSON: Many, many millions of dollars in business.

COELHO: No, that's the wrong business, so you've got it wrong there. So you've got to get your facts together.

CARLSON: I don't think that's true actually.

COELHO: But the point is that Terry had a variety of reasons why he thought Jeb Bush was wrong. And you know what? Jeb Bush was in serious trouble, and that debate that occurred turned it around. But Jeb Bush was in serious trouble and on this show we talked about it and you agreed that he was in trouble. He was in trouble.

CARLSON: He was in trouble until McBride blew it, but this idea that you defeat a guy simply because his brother is president, that's pathetic.

COELHO: But what you've done there is what you normally do. You take a quote out of 500,000 quotes and you try to make it into a big issue. But one thing that Bob said is he said the insurance companies were going to make a lot of money because they were going to take care of people to permit them to do this. That's a lot of money. I think that's a little bit of payback.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: I said that passing terrorism insurance would assure that what we have is...

COELHO: But who is going to provide it?

WALKER: Well, for one thing, what we're going to do -- most of the terrorism insurance is to provide a cap...

COELHO: But who is going to provide it?

WALKER: Well, some of the insurance is going to be provided by insurance companies, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

COELHO: That's what I was saying. That's what I thought. That's what I thought.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: I realize that Democrats want to take the companies out of business but...

COELHO: No, no, that's not what I'm saying.

CARLSON: I got to take a quick break. In a minute, we'll ask our guests if the Democrats will just fade away or be content with permanent minority status as a kind of less interesting green party.

And, there are going to be some red faces as we grade the predictions made on this show Monday night. You won't want to miss that. It's embarrassing. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back.

We're examining the political lessons of this year's election, and there are many. Most of them painful, most of them for Democrats. Our guests, Democratic strategist Tony Coelho and former Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Bob Walker.

BEGALA: Mr. Walker, let me give you a chance to feel my pain a little bit. And that is, the governor races were actually quite painful for the Republican Party. Let me show you a couple of maps.

We begin with the map of election night 2000, the very famous red/blue map. Let's take a look. The red states, of course, are states that George W. Bush carried in 2000. Now, look at what happened just last night.

Arizona, we put it at stripes, because they haven't -- Nepalitano (ph), the Democrat, former Clinton aide is leading, but we haven't called it. Oklahoma, too close to call still, but (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is going to lose, I promise you.

Kansas, Tennessee, Wyoming and Alabama -- in Alabama, both are declaring victory. Those are all going blue just last night. Now let's look at this map. This is the number of states that are Democratic now and will be Democratic in January. The majority of the American people today by January will live under Democratic governors.

Freedom, freedom, freedom finally. Democrats are actually running the states in America.

WALKER: Well, I think that's an interesting point. In large part, most people will live under Democratic governors because you still retain California, which is a big part of that. But let me show a map, too.

BEGALA: Tony represented California in the Congress. Pennsylvania, your home state, just went overwhelming for Ed Rendell, a Democrat.

WALKER: They did. And you did win some governorships, and that's probably the one thing you can crow about from last night. However, if you take a look at the northeast, you are left with only one Democratic governor in the entire northeast after last night.

BEGALA: But Maine and Pennsylvania's too.

WALKER: Well, I'm including -- basically New England and New York. I have Pennsylvania in the middle Atlantic. But the fact is if you include Pennsylvania, you only have two in the entire northeast quadrant. That used to be solid Democratic country. What happened?

If you take a look at some of those states...

COELHO: Do you think George Bush is going to win in New York? Give me a break.

WALKER: If you take a look at some of those places where you won governorships, you'll also find that Republicans won overwhelming victories in the legislative bodies, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Kansas and so on. And so it is clear that the vote was won for particular candidates, but Republicans did very, very well in the legislative races, which means that the farm teams that we're building are actually superior to yours.

CARLSON: Tony, the idea that this is going to help Democrats...

COELHO: Oh, that's really kind of interesting.

CARLSON: ... in 2004 -- in 1996, the Republicans held 30 governorships. It didn't help them at all with electoral votes in that election. The bottom line -- it remains -- right, but it was still a blowout. It remains true the Democrats have basically no one to run in 2004.

We hear today that Gary Hart, perhaps egged on by Walter Mondale and Frank Lautenberg, kind of the 1970's team, is going to get back in and maybe run for president. That's pretty sad. I mean you got to feel sad about that.

COELHO: I don't feel sad about anything. I think that basically what we have is we have a situation developing now, where we'll look and see what happens over the next year and who's going to run. We have a lot of candidates that want to run. Look, Tucker, the interesting thing about politics, I love it, is that the pendulum moves. And the public makes decisions.

They made a decision last night. And they haven't made a decision for two years from now. And it's exciting as we go forward. And I'll tell you what, if the economy is in serious trouble, hang on to your hat.

BEGALA: Absolutely.

COELHO: And I'll tell you what, right now, if you're in real estate, you've got to be concerned, very concerned. If the real estate industry goes down, it will affect the economy for another two years. So be careful.

It will be interesting to see who they put in Harvey Pitt's place, it will be interesting to see what the interest rate reduction does, because that's directed at the real estate -- at the real estate industry, and this whole thing with the economy is very, very serious. And if you listen to Bob...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: We can't have people this smart and not let the audience also have a chance to pick some brains. So go ahead, ma'am, what's your question or comment for these guys?

KIRSTEN FAUCHMAN (ph): Hi. My name is Kirsten Fauchman (ph), I'm from Peachtree City, Georgia. My question is, how do you the new GOP governance will affect judicial nominations, specifically the Supreme Court?

BEGALA: Bob Walker first, you're Republican.

WALKER: Well, I think very clearly that we will now be able to get judicial nominees out of the Judiciary Committee and onto the floor for votes, and I think once those nominees come out on the floor for votes, because they are quality people, a majority of the Senate is going to vote for them. And so, therefore, you've got an opportunity to move judicial nominations of all kinds. Supreme Court takes more votes than that, but it will assure that -- I think that President Bush's judicial nominees and his Supreme Court nominations, if some of those come, will have a very good chance of passage in a new Congress.

BEGALA: And Tony, some of those nominees for the Supreme Court are going to look like the third guy from the left in the evolutionary chart, right? The sort of knuckle-dragging...

COELHO: The Christian right, who has been playing ball, all of a sudden are going to demand their pound of flesh, and that's what we're going to see for the Supreme Court. It is going to be very interesting.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: I think that's nonsense.

COELHO: I let you talk, I let you talk. Just let me finish. I let you talk. So basically what's going to happen now is that the Christian right, who has played ball, is going to insist, and you're going to have real serious troubles...

WALKER: What's wrong with the fact they're Christian?

COELHO: And I'll tell you -- I have no trouble with the fact they're Christian.

CARLSON: You sound like you do.

COELHO: No, I don't. I have trouble with the fact that they are absolute on the right-hand side conservative, and I'll tell you -- let me finish.

(CROSSTALK)

COELHO: And I'll tell you what -- what's going to happen is that they are going to our base, and that's what's going to help us out again. They're going to get our base exercised...

BEGALA: Bob Walker gets the last word.

WALKER: On the Judiciary Committee, Chuck Schumer has been an absolute absolutist, and said that anybody who didn't agree with his philosophy couldn't leave the committee.

CARLSON: He is a total extremist.

WALKER: He is a total extremist, and you guys have practiced extremism. You're not going to see that from the Bush administration.

BEGALA: Oh, we're going to hold you to that.

COELHO: We'll quote you on that one, baby.

BEGALA: Bob Walker, former congressman from Pennsylvania, Republican, Tony Coelho, former congressman from California. Two of the best. Thank you very much. Stay with just for a second. Still ahead, the single most memorable image of election night 2002. Here's a hint, it was a CROSSFIRE co-host, and he didn't have his foot in it. Up next, the results all of America is waiting to hear. Stand by for another look at our CROSSFIRE hosts elections predictions. For me, I don't have to ask my wife what's for dinner, because I am going to be eating crow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Of course, on Monday night, those of you who were watching, saw Bob Novak and Tucker Carlson, as well as Carville and myself fearlessly predict the outcome of the congressional elections. Our motto: "often wrong, never in doubt."

So, pass the barbecue sauce. Time for us to eat some of our words. Let me start with brother Carlson, he got the Senate right. Good for you, Tucker. The reality was this, start with the real world -- Republicans gained two seats in the Senate, and three seats in the House. Tucker, spot on in the Senate, good for you, way off on the House. Irrational exuberance me thinks.

CARLSON: Actually guessing.

BEGALA: Yes, well, that is about what I did.

CARLSON: OK. On to the Begalian (ph) picks. Paul, balance of power, Senate plus three. Tragically wrong, thankfully wrong.

BEGALA: Way wrong.

CARLSON: House plus three GOP, however, you are spot on so far, not counting the four races not yet called, it could be up to seven, you could be wrong again.

BEGALA: I think only, actually, one of those four are likely to go to the Republicans, so at least in the House, not good news for my party, but there's Uncle James, as my boys call him there. Senate plus two for the Democrats, slightly off, and the House, plus two for the Republicans, almost exactly right. So not a bad pick either from James.

CARLSON: And Robert D. Novak. Senate, plus one Republicans -- he was bold enough to predict a Republican takeover of the Senate. Good for you, Bob. House plus four, he is almost exactly right there.

BEGALA: Well, you know, that's -- actually, we're not -- you were right, we were all guessing. But it wasn't all that bad. We promised we'd eat our words, and we did.

The big error was people like me and James thinking that Democrats would hold the Senate...

CARLSON: Well, in your defense, a lot of people thought that.

Still to come, instead of a quote of the day, we have a picture of the day that perfectly and unforgettably captures the essence of election night, and stars someone close to our hearts.

But next, what could be possibly wrong with the political agenda that offers nothing but obstructionism and higher taxes? Stand by for some Democratic soul-searching as CROSSFIRE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you as we always do from the George Washington University here Downtown Washington.

All day Democrats have been asking themselves if it's time for their party to find some new leadership. Well as we reported at the top of our show Congressman Dick Gephardt has decided not to seek another term as minority leader. Which begs the question, what in the world is going on inside the Democratic Party?

Joining us from Memphis, Tennessee tonight is Democratic Congressman Harold Ford.

BEGALA: Congressman Ford, it's good to see you again, sir. Thank you for joining us.

REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: Thanks for having me.

BEGALA: CNN is reporting that tomorrow Mr. Gephardt will announce that he's going to step down, or step aside as the leader of the House Democrats.

But earlier today, long before CNN was reporting it, you were giving him a shove. Why?

FORD: No, I didn't really give him a shove. I reminded , I think, most Democrats in the House what many Democrats across the country were sharing with me today.

The question to ask is, what happened? Where was the message and why couldn't you convey it? I think at some level, the leadership in the House, on the democratic side, has to take responsibility. I would imagine there were distractions: the snipers -- which I'm happy and delighted we caught -- the Iraq resolution -- which occupied most of Congress's attention for a good deal of time. But there was still two to three weeks to focus on the issues and Democrats really did not have a coherent message.

Dick Gephardt, let me say this, is one of the finest leaders this nation has known. He's the hardest working, biggest money raiser and frankly the most passionate Democrat in the House. But much like a manager of a baseball team who really, really wants to win, is beloved by his players but simply can't win. Sometimes it's time to move on. And now might be a time for infusion of new ideas and new faces within the leadership of the House on the Democratic side. BEGALA: Well let me ask you...

FORD: And I hope to play a role in helping to shape -- I didn't mean to interrupt you -- but hope to play a role in shaping the agenda and platform that Democrats will pursue as we enter really a new era of governing with the Republicans having the majority in the House, Senate, White House and an edge even on the Supreme Court.

BEGALA: Well me too, Congressman Ford. So let's do it together right now, here, live on national television. I hope you'll join me -- I want you first to tell me what Dick Gephardt did wrong. And I used to work for him so I'm biased and I love him.

But I guess what I would do differently is this: I would have confronted Bush and called for a repeal of the Bush tax cuts and confronted the administration on this rush to war. I gather that you -- you're for repealing the Bush tax cut and you're against Bush's rush to war on Iraq. But you're principal issues that I think we took a pass on in 2002 elections.

FORD: I supported the resolution. 9/11 changed things for me as I'm sure it did for you and Tucker. I just had a different opinion. I think that you can inflict major harm without a missile delivery system. You can do it with a suitcase, or a small cargo ship, or small boat...

BEGALA: So that means you have the same position as Mr. Gephardt so then it must be then, that you want to, like me, repeal the Bush tax cut, which is something Mr. Gephardt was unwilling to call for. I think he was maybe worried about political ramifications. Or maybe he was worried about other members of his caucus in political trouble.

FORD: It's obvious that the tax cut Congress passed, which I did not vote for last year, is not working. If the economy had continued to perform at the rate it did in the 90s when you worked at the White House, Mr. Begala, perhaps we could have afforded some of those things. But frankly, it's not producing a turnaround.

I think we need a new kind of stimulus, perhaps to freeze those tax cuts to the point -- or I should say up to a point in which the economy begins to perform again at that rate and perhaps enact a new immediate tax rebate plan in the form of some payroll tax holiday, something that Gene Sperling and others have talked about in accelerated appreciation schedule to promote business investment, even to eliminate the double tax on dividends.

And for states with so many Democrats and Republicans elected to governors seats across the nation yesterday, faced with great health care challenges and education problems, we should change the formulas on Medicaid and Medicare for underserved rural and urban areas. And we even provide some moneys for school construction. It could all be part of what I call a $250 billion stimulus package.

But I think the next leader on our side will not only have to present a coherent plan and be willing to challenge the president when he's wrong and support him when he's right, but be one who's able to bring the caucus together. We're a diverse caucus and...

CARLSON: Mr. Ford, I want to talk to you about the next leader. Some Democrats, and you heard Paul Begala do it, have argued the party needs to embrace, essentially, the Streisand Agenda. Farther left, more vegetarianism, more sandals, Patchouli. I mean take the party back in time to when it was a liberal party, the party of George McGovern.

Now, news tonight is that Nancy Pelosi is the leading contender, she's a part of that wing in the party, to replace Congressman Dick Gephardt. Is this a positive development?

FORD: Well, Nancy has every right to run. And I would imagine she's going to have to present to Democrats in the House her message, her plan and where she takes the caucus and, frankly, how she will take us there.

I think there will be great reluctance, in little of what we saw yesterday, to veer too far to the left or for that matter to too far to the right, which wouldn't be a problem likely in the Democratic caucus. I think those who won yesterday were those who -- Democrats that is, were those Democrats who focus on solutions and answers to problems faced by American families all across the nation.

So if you present what I consider a moderate, kind of middle of the road plan focused on answers willing to adhere to which ever party has the best set of ideas, I think that's the kind of person we need as leader.

CARLSON: Mr. Ford, you and I agree on this. You said that Nancy Pelosi has the right to run. I believe she does have that legal right. Not an endorsement, though. You sound appalled by the idea of her running. I'm just interpreting the way you sound.

Martin Frost of Texas, much more conservative, much more moderate -- a term you would use -- from Texas will be challenging her. Do you support Martin Frost against Nancy Pelosi?

FORD: I'm going to wait to hear from both of the candidates. I will say that Martin's views and my views are far closer than Ms. Pelosi. However, Ms. Pelosi is the whip in the caucus, highly respected and will certainly put forth a great, great effort for this seat.

Again, I think the person has to be someone also who can bring people together and not alienate parts of the caucus. I think one of the central questions for Ms. Pelosi will be can she hold on to the moderate and conservative wing of the party?

And one of key questions for Martin is that since he's been part of the leadership, can his distinguish himself from some of the things that some in the Democratic caucus believe the old leadership represents? It'll be an interesting race. But I must say that my views are probably closer in line with Martin's.

BEGALA: Congressman Ford, we only have about 15 seconds left. Let me ask you briefly what is the best way then for Democrats to go -- to deal with President Bush? Should we get along with him more or fight with him more?

FORD: Well, I think you have to stand for something and when the president is in line or aligned with what you stand for you support him. But when not, I think you have to be willing to take him on.

And frankly, we didn't take him on enough on the issues that I think Americans cared about: jobs and the economy and all of the things associated with that, including education and health. We didn't do it in quite the way we should have. And as a result, I think the voters went to the polls yesterday and rewarded the party with the message and rewarded the party who repeated their message over and over again.

I don't think that message is going to help America. And that's part of challenge as Democrats here in the next two years is not only to stand in the way, but to be part of the answer, be part of the solution. And the next leader in the Democratic caucus is going to have to be able to lead this caucus in that direction.

BEGALA: Congressman Harold Ford, Jr. from Memphis, Tennessee. Thank you very much for joining us, sir.

FORD: Thank you.

BEGALA: Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, one of our viewers looks ahead to life in the Republican Party's version of one-party America.

Next, the one election night picture that everybody is talking about just happens to feature on of CROSSFIRE's own. Stay tuned to look at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back.

There are many memorable, delightful images from election night 2002. The shock on the faces of countless Democrats, the joy in the eyes of their Republican counterparts.

But the most memorable image of the day came from someone whose face and eyes were hidden. Here it is direct from CNN's election night coverage, the CROSSFIRE picture of the day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: I would say bad night for Democrats. James Carville feels the same way.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Well, I'm not saying that I'm embarrassed.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: I've kind of had my head in the right place.

CARLSON: Well, I must say, James, I can see why you feel that way.

BEGALA: I've never met this guy. Any of you know him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Well good for him. I mean that's -- good for him for being honest. Better than Terry McAuliffe pretending that everything's fine.

BEGALA: Terry McAuliffe is a great guy, he's a great party chairman. Democrats ought to rally behind him.

But Carville, I just -- you've got to admit. The stunt of the day. I love James and I love when he does this stuff.

Now, there are a few hand wringers in my party who've been e- mailing and saying, Why did he do that?

CARLSON: How does Barbra feel?

BEGALA: My message to that is three words: get a life.

See, you know what? I don't know. You've been talking to Jerry Falwell probably a whole lot more, so how does Reverend Falwell feel about this?

CARLSON: I don't ever defend Jerry Falwell and you always defend Barbra Streisand and that's the key difference in.

BEGALA: Because he's nuts and she terrific. There's a big difference.

CARLSON: But he's a...

BEGALA: When we come back, you'll get the chance to "Fireback" at us. There's plenty of ammo, I'm sure. Despite the claims of people like Tucker Carlson, the Democratic Party is on the comeback. You watch. And we will "Fireback after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. It is time now for "Fireback." And boy, you've been firing back at us. Keep them coming.

Keren Sachs here in our nation's capital, Washington, D.C., a city under occupation, says, "Here, here to our new Republican government. Kids will be praying in their free private religious schools for the safety of our soldiers fighting the War in Iraq. But the wealthiest 1 percent need not worry, our government will take care of you. Way to go W."

Excellent point, Keren. A lot of good news in yesterday's election returns. CARLSON: What a paranoid group Democrats are.

Joe Murphy from Orlando, Fla (sic) writes: "I've been in the Democratic Party since the RFK days. We got what we deserved." Oooh, hit me again. "We had no back bone, no agenda and it showed at the polls. I disagree the Bush administration on almost everything, but at least they stood by their convictions."

That's right. He's an honest Democrat.

BEGALA: Joe Murphy, part of the stand up and fight wing. I'm with you, Joe.

Jonathan Williams in Ames, Iowa writes: "Mr. Begala," -- that would be my dad, I'm just Paul -- "I know it's frustrating to see the far right gain control of Congress. But things are not all bad. For better or for worse, the GOP has just been given all the rope it needs to hang itself, and has been robbed of its scapegoats. It is so much harder to hide extremism when it's exposed in all its glory."

That's a good point, Jonathan.

CARLSON: The far right. I love this.

BEGALA: The kook right, I prefer. It's not politically correct.

CARLSON: The name calling. I mean all these guys are just like moderate Democrats -- I mean moderate Republicans. I'm the far right.

BEGALA: Jerry Falwell?

CARLSON: I mean, come on, give me a break.

BEGALA: Kook right.

CARLSON: He's got nothing to do with anything.

Gerry Whipple from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania writes: "Maybe once the Democrats realize you need a message instead of bumper sticker they'll get some votes."

But you know what, Gerry Whipple? They're great bumper sticker writers. "Visualize world peace," do you think a Republican thought that up? I don't think so.

BEGALA: "When they pry my cold, dead hands of off my uzi," that's a Republican bumper sticker.

CARLSON: Amen. It's one of my favorites. And we have a question. yes, ma'am?

BEGALA: Yes, ma'am. What's your question?

QUESTION: Meaghan Gates (ph). I'm a student here in D.C. Despite what happened last night I'm proud to say that I'm a Democrat and my friends are proud to say that they're Democrats. The Republicans may be safe now but in 2004 we're coming back and stronger than ever.

BEGALA: That's the right attitude, Meaghan.

CARLSON: With Gary Hart, I hope. I hope you support the candidacy of Gary Hart. Bring back Gary Hart. Oh, he's pathetic.

BEGALA: I love people who support Dick Cheney worrying about anybody else being fit or too old. I love Dick Cheney, I hope he lives and serves forever but...

CARLSON: Gary Hart's quite a fit, vigorous man.

BEGALA: Yeah, you know.

CARLSON: Yes, sir?

BEGALA: Well he is. He's very vigorous.

CARLSON: He's a very vigorous man.

QUESTION: I'm Todd Grove (ph) from Spokane, Washington. I'm wondering will it be harder to vote outside party lines in Congress now further hindering bipartisan cooperation?

BEGALA: That's a great point and I actually wanted to ask these congressmen that. Why would any Democrat now want to cooperate with President Bush? A lot of good Democrats, Jeanne Carnahan, Max Cleland voted with President Bush on his most important things and he came in their state and beat their ass. That's legitimate, that's politics, but any Democrat that again cooperates with Bush is a fool.

CARLSON: Well, I don't know. It's not all politics. I mean there is after all a country to run. I'm not sure you're aware of that.

BEGALA: A country club, I guess is what Bush would think.

CARLSON: And some things are just -- correct, so you vote for them and vote your beliefs. That's sort of what it's all about, I thought. But maybe not.

BEGALA: But why would anybody ever cooperate with Bush again? In my party?

Yes, sir?

CARLSON: Yes, sir?

QUESTION: Hi. I'm Richard Chang (ph) from San Diego, California. Given Terry McAuliffe's pronouncement that this year's political battle ground would be thwarted this year and his embarrassment after what he said, is his days of being the DNC chairman numbered?

CARLSON: Well he said this morning on CNN, on Paula Zahn's show that he had many more years, two at least left, I think, as chairman of the party.

I sure hope so. I think he's doing great job. Last night was terrific.

BEGALA: The party chairman's job is to do the money and the mechanics. Terry has done both of those things. It's not his job to do the message. That's the job of our elected officials and...

CARLSON: Wait, wait. Who's job is it? No honestly. Is it his job to do the message.

BEGALA: No, it's not.

CARLSON: Well then who else is going to do it? Where's the message guy?

BEGALA: Our elected officials.

CARLSON: Oh, Dick Gephardt, the one that just resigned? Oh, OK.

BEGALA: That's why Harold Ford what banging on...

CARLSON: That's why Barbra Streisand, the new message person of the Democratic Party -- it all comes back to Barbra, doesn't it?

BEGALA: I'd take Barbra Streisand against Jerry Falwell any day of the week.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night, Reverend Falwell, from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now, have a great night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Seek Another Term as Minority Leader>


Aired November 6, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: to the victors go the spoils.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think there's no question that last night's results increased the likelihood of getting things done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: So much of what we need to do is obvious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus spoil the Election Day for the Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK GEPHARDT (D-MO), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: This is a unique election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNER: And who's spoiling for a fight over control of the party?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm very confident I'm here for a couple of more years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, without spoiling the surprise, what did CROSSFIRE have to do with the funniest moment of Election Day 2002?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE and Washington's brave new world. Suddenly, the GOP runs the entire federal government, the White House and both chambers of Congress. What will Republicans do with their newfound power?

We'll ask that question tonight and then we'll gloat. Where did Democrats go so terribly wrong? Can they ever recover, and what does this mean for 2004 presidential race, which officially begins today.

We'll begin with some breaking news on Capitol Hill, though. Perhaps some of the first fall (ph) of the Democrat's election disaster. Here is CNN Congressional Correspondent Kate Snow.

Kate, I love what the Democrats did last night, but apparently there have been recriminations. Tell us about it.

KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it might not have sat so well, although this decision may be a little independent of yesterday. We're still trying to sort out the motivation behind the decision. But the decision, according to two Democratic sources close to Dick Gephardt, the House Minority Leader right now, he will announce tomorrow morning that he will no longer run -- he will not run to be the minority leader when they have another election next week.

That's a Democratic internal election in the House for the next minority leader. He will announce tomorrow, according to sources, that he won't seek reelection as the Democratic leader. Now, Mr. Gephardt, we're told, is making calls to other members now, some of his closer friends here on Capitol Hill, to tell them about his decision.

He spent the day at his home in Washington discussing his political future, we're told, with his family and with close advisors. Now, the decision comes as many were speculating about what Mr. Gephardt would do. We're told that some members had called him today and told him, stay with it, be our minority leader, you can run for president down the road.

I'm also told by several Democrats that they were urging him not to run for minority leader, to be precise about that. Peter Deutsch from Florida, Harold Ford Jr., from Tennessee, two of the Democrats I talked to today that said that Gephardt can't do the job of both things at once. He can't be minority leader and run for president, so he ought to step down.

I'm told by sources close to Gephardt that that was not what motivated him, Tucker, to make this decision. That he hasn't been listening to people like Peter Deutsch and Harold Ford, but rather that he contemplated the decision all day today and decided simply that the timing is right, that it's time to get out of the way so that the race can be conducted between two other Democrats who are already in the wings, the number two Democrat, Nancy Pelosi and the number three, Martin Frost, who, by the way, has already scheduled a press conference for tomorrow morning to announce that he intends to run for minority leader -- Tucker.

CARLSON: I love it. It's a great story. Kate Snow, you reported it very well. We appreciate it. Thank you.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Thanks, Kate.

CARLSON: Time now to return to our political hangover show which, of course, begins as it always do with our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

For those of you keeping score at home, these are the numbers from the midterm election. The new lineup in the House of Representatives will consist of at least 226 Republicans, up from the current total of 223, with four races still undecided. In the Senate, come January, the Republicans will hold at least 51 seats. It could be even more if South Dakota's expected recount braces Democrat Tim Johnson's 527-vote lead.

There's also next month's runoff in Louisiana. If Republican Suzanne Terrell beats vulnerable Democratic incumbent, Mary Landrieu, the Republican majority will be, of course, even larger. We'll keep you up to date on that important race. We may even find it necessary to travel to New Orleans to cover it first hand.

BEGALA: Now that I would love to do. CROSSFIRE from the French Quarter. You all want to come with us? Let's go, right of the bus, Tucker. We're heading to New Orleans.

Well, in a colder climate in South Dakota, the Senate race in that state there was a bit of a proxy war between our President, George W. Bush, and our Senate Majority Leader, Tom Daschle, on what was otherwise a very good night of course for Mr. Bush. Daschle appears to have handed him a narrow but nonetheless stinging defeat in South Dakota.

Like other members of the Democratic accommodationist wing, junior Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota voted with Bush on his tax cut and voted with him on his march to war in Iraq. But while others who voted with him went down to defeat yesterday, the personal appeal of Tom Daschle, one of the few Democrats with the courage to stand up to Mr. Bush with great consistency and courage seems to have saved Tim Johnson's job in the Senate.

So, my point is they're standing up to Bush in a state where he got over 60 percent of the vote for president and has an approval rating of 78 percent works, imagine how it would work in a less Republican leaning state. A thought for the Democrats.

CARLSON: I love this idea that America is crying out desperately for the politics of Barbra Streisand. The Democrats need to go...

BEGALA: Tom Daschle. Get up, stand up.

CARLSON: No, I mean I actually think it's a wonderful strategy. I applaud it. And I hope you employ it -- Al Sharpton, 2004. There's always a story in New Jersey and tonight is no different. Disgraced Democratic Senator Robert Torricelli now says he would have won if he hadn't given up his race for reelection last month. Torricelli, you'll recall -- we're not making this up, by the way -- dropped out because polls showed he was getting clobbered by Republican Doug Forrester, who, alas, ended up getting clobbered by Torricelli's replacement, the soon to be 79-year-old Frank Lautenberg.

Perhaps you can see Torricelli's logic. If lautenberg could win, anyone could win. However, unlike Torricelli, Lautenberg was never accused of having close friends in organized crime. He was never caught in surveillance tapes in the company of three "waste management consultants." Nor, of course, was he reprimanded by the Senate Ethics Committee. But, of course, there's still time.

Lautenberg has six years to embarrass the state. Good luck, Frank Lautenberg.

BEGALA: Frank is one of the wealthiest men in America. He was the founder of ADP, Automated Data Processing. And, know what, he's against Bush's tax cut for the rich. He made that an issue in New Jersey and he won. Another good lesson for the Democrats. Good for Frank Lautenberg -- congratulations, Frank.

A moment ago Tucker mentioned Barbra Streisand in his usual derogatory way. Point of fact, Barbra Streisand is the only artist ever to earn the Oscar, the Tony, the Emmy, the Grammy, the Golden Globe, the Cable Ace, the Peabody, the American Film Institute's Life Achievement Award and the presidential medal of the art. Maybe she does actually know something, because I think she deserves a Poli (ph) as well for her political strategy.

See, Streisand has long advised Democrats to vigorously oppose President Bush's economic and social policies, especially his tax cut for the rich, even though, of course, Streisand herself would benefit from it. For that, she's been the object of a rabid right-wing attack, focused mostly on a memo that she sent to House Democratic Leader Dick Gephardt, which did have some typos in it, courtesy of a young aide to whom she apparently dictated it.

The memo argued for stronger Democratic opposition to Bush's rush to war in Iraq. Sadly, leader Gephardt ignored Streisand's advice, as did too many other Democrats, many of whom now face the daunting task of looking for work during the Bush recession. History is history. She was right, you were wrong.

CARLSON: I admit I made fun of the fact that Barbra Streisand is the Democratic Party's intellectual leader, but I didn't know she won a Tony award and a Cable Ace. That's remarkable.

BEGALA: Your party's leader, Jerry Falwell, he never won nothing, unless something he rigged maybe.

CARLSON: That's not true. And I do hope that you're at least getting dinner out of this at Barbra's house, because it's so embarrassing. BEGALA: We'll invite you and Jerry Falwell to join us.

CARLSON: I would love to come. I'm not sure I want the Reverend Falwell to come.

BEGALA: I'd come.

CARLSON: Somewhere, the captain of the Titanic is smiling down at Democratic Party Chairman Terry McAuliffe. Not only is he still at the helm and was this morning, he was still assuring passengers to remain calm. Even as water poured over the rails, McAuliffe went on the morning shows to explain how the public will be tremendously impressed with his party's gain in certain governorships. Though, of course, the GOP still has most of them.

Of course, as morning dawned, the Republicans were also totaling up midterm election gains never before seen in U.S. history, making plans to control both houses of Congress and even measuring governors' mansions in Maryland and Georgia, something no one had ever imagined possible. Captain McAuliffe, the Republican iceberg salutes you.

BEGALA: Midterm gains never before seen in American history?

CARLSON: No party has ever taken the Senate back in the midterm.

BEGALA: No party has gained seats in an off year since the last midterm. Look, you guys, you pick up, what, three seats in the House and two seats in the Senate and you get your panties in a wad. And you all have a celebration. You need a party, go out and have one, but this is a little...

CARLSON: If you're going to argue this want a tidal wave, be my guest, Paul. You're a minority of one.

BEGALA: Not a good day for my guys, but no. I don't think three seats is exactly a tidal wave.

CARLSON: They took back the Senate. That's a big deal.

BEGALA: Well, you know what else happened last night? As everybody else was covering the election returns, Harvey Pitt announced that he would resign. So the question is, who will President Bush tap to mismanage the agency that Harvey Pitt has now left -- the Securities and Exchange Commission?

Well, incredibly, according to today's "New York Times," the short list includes former SEC Chair Richard Breeden and former SEC General Counsel, James Doty, the two men who cleared George W. Bush of insider trading charges back when they ran the SEC and W's daddy was president.

Of course, they cleared Bush from insider trading charges without ever interviewing Bush, without ever interviewing his firm's CEO or any other officer or any other director of the company. Bush said that he sold his stock as an insider with the approval of attorneys. But a recently uncovered memo proves otherwise. Bush and other insiders were, in fact, warned by lawyers in writing not to sell. Bush sold anyway. And the SEC cleared Bush without even reading the incriminating memo. White House aides say that others on their short list for the SEC include Martha Stewart, Ken Lay and Mr. Magoo.

CARLSON: You know, every night we relive Harken on the set here.

BEGALA: Oh, we have not yet begun to -- insider trading.

CARLSON: It doesn't bother me, actually, because, A, I still don't understand what in the world you're talking about, and, B, I know that voters don't either. And I must say, running against Harvey Pitt has turned out to be -- I hope you keep doing it -- a colossal disaster.

BEGALA: I ain't running against Harvey Pitt. I'm running against George W. Bush, and I ain't going to stop. Your idea of a scandal is insider dating. I think insider trading is a much bigger deal, Tucker.

CARLSON: I have no idea what you're talking about.

BEGALA: The difference between the two parties, I guess.

Well, coming up, we'll continue this debate and have a closer look at my party's strategy and how it worked out in the midterm election. Not very well, of course. There are some painful lessons that we will learn. Maybe this candidate for 2004 ought to sit up and pay a little attention to.

Then later, instead of the quote of the day, we're going to break tradition at CROSSFIRE and have a political picture of the day, starting with a very familiar figure to viewers of this show. You're not going to want to miss this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

You know, there's no getting around the fact that the 2002 midterm congressional elections yesterday were not exactly a great day for the Democratic Party. But, like the San Francisco Giants are probably saying, wait till next year. Or I guess in politics that means wait for two years.

Here to talk about strategy for the next two years, two of the best former congressmen both and also the Gore campaign chairman, Tony Coelho, and former Pennsylvania Congressman, Republican Bob Walker. Gentlemen, welcome back. Good to see you.

CARLSON: Thanks for joining us. Tony Coelho, I'm really...

TONY COELHO, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: You're really stuck on Barbra Streisand. CARLSON: I must say, I love Barbra Streisand. She really is the new Jane Fonda. I love her, I hope you all run on her. I think she's marvelous.

COELHO: And you know what I love? I love the fact that you like Jerry Falwell and you want to put Jerry Falwell up against Barbra Streisand.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: I'm not even sure who Jerry Falwell is. But Barbra Streisand is running your party.

COELHO: Most people know who Barbra is. That's what's great. We'll put Jerry and Barbra together.

CARLSON: Well you keep bragging about it. Let me show you one of the most interesting polls I've seen in a long time. This is a CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll taken right before the election and asked voters, what's the most important issue to you? Number one, the economy. Actually not even close. Education comes in at 17, Iraq comes in at 16, terrorism at 13.

I thought, I know Democrats thought and I actually bought it, I'll admit it, are that concerns about the economy would help Democrats. But it turns out they didn't. People are worried about the economy but they didn't blame President Bush. Why do you think that is?

COELHO: I think that George Bush conducted one of the most astute campaigns that we've seen in a long time. I think he was willing to take what he has and parlayed it into more gains. Not a lot of politicians are willing to do that. He did it.

It was a risk, he did it, he deserves credit. He won last night. Let's get that out of the way. There's no doubt about it, it was a great victory.

But let's just move on. I mean the economy was a problem yesterday. You know what, Tucker, it's going to be a problem tomorrow. It's going to be a problem next year.

And we want to see how you guys handle it. That's going to be the issue going forward. That's what's going on here.

Victory, pat yourself on the back. I'll even pat yourself on the back. I thought it was a spectacular victory.

CARLSON: I think it's absolutely fair -- it's more than fair -- to ask the party in power, this party, the Republicans very much in power now, to be accountable for what they do. And, to some extent, to be accountable for the economy. But I still don't understand why Democratic attempts to link Bush to a falling or hurting economy didn't work.

COELHO: Well, I think it was spectacular strategy on their part. And they pursued the other issues. Iraq, they pursued the Department of Homeland Security and all that stuff. They pursued all these things. Wonderful strategy. And it worked. And I don't have trouble with that.

I love politics and I love the game. And it worked. The question is, they have to now live with what they won and the economy is still there. It is still the number one issue.

And I'll tell you what, in two years, these people who he brought in yesterday on his coattails, they're going to have to defend the next two years. I hope for them the economy turns around, I hope for the American people it turns around. But if it doesn't, it's payback time.

BEGALA: Bob Walker, I want to second what Tony said, congratulations to you and your party on a well-run campaign, a well executed strategy. And now that you have power, certainly not absolute, we have checks and balances. But I mean you control the House, you control the Senate, you control the White house, you damn sure control the federal judiciary, we learned that in the last election.

What are you going to do with it? Let me suggest a few things. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," the program that precedes this is a fabulous show. It gives me insights every day into the business word. One of the things they reported is that today, on the stock market, the following sectors moved up on news of the election: tobacco stocks, asbestos stocks, chemical stocks, oil stocks, insurance stocks. You guys are now going to have to pay back every one of those sleaze bag special interests that financed these campaigns, aren't you, Bob?

BOB WALKER, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: No, I don't think so at all. I think what we're going to do, we're going to look at an economic program that makes sense. And one of the first things that you can do now with Republican majorities in both the House and the Senate is get terrorism insurance passed.

The fact is that passing terrorism insurance would make a lot of sense toward taking off one of the overloads in the economy that's stopping the building boom from taking off. And so it seems to me that there are a number of things we can do. I think we will make some substantial tax reforms and I think that they will be beneficial to the country and to average working people.

BEGALA: Will they include particular tax breaks for corporations?

WALKER: I think what one of the things we'll do is to make the tax cuts permanent that have now been put in place, and thereby give people some confidence that their tax status is not going to change as a result of things running out in the future. And I think that will be a positive help to the economy.

BEGALA: But that wasn't the question, though, sir. With all due respect, the question was, will Republicans pay back their special interest supporters with special tax breaks for particular corporations or sectors?

WALKER: Well, I think we will look at overall business taxes and find out whether or not there are things that need to be done to take off the overload of regulation and taxation for companies. But I don't think it will be aimed at particular sectors. I'm sure that some of it will get defined that way because that's the nature of politics. But the bottom line is it will be a general attempt to take business out of the doldrums and make us more competitive in a global economy.

The problem is right now that we're becoming more and more uncompetitive in the global economy. I just finished a study for President Bush on the status of the aerospace industry. The aerospace industry is gradually becoming more and more uncompetitive, and this is an industry that we depend upon for our exports. Now, it seems to me that doing some things to help shore up that business would make a lot of sense.

CARLSON: Tony Coelho, I want to put a quote on the screen. Everyone is beating up on Terry McAuliffe, obviously for a good reason. This is a quote from him. I think it's important, though. I think it's a metaphor for everything that went wrong in this midterm.

This is Terry McAuliffe to "The New York Times." "Jeb is gone. There won't be anything as devastating to President Bush as his brother's losing Florida."

Now, here's the problem have I with that quote. I mean it's obviously fair for the party chairman to want to win races, right, but the explanation for why he wants to win in Florida in that quote is the same one he was giving every day up until yesterday. This is the president's brother. He was senselessly personalizing it.

He wasn't attacking Jeb for his policies or necessarily for what he's done as the governor of Florida, but simply because he's the president's brother. It's childish, it's stupid and it says everything that's wrong with the way Democrats approach politics.

COELHO: The question is childish, because what is the truth here is that, Terry, if you listened to him, Terry basically talked about what happened two years and legitimately concerned about what happened in Florida two years ago. That's his right as party chairman.

Terry also was concerned about the education program in Florida. His right as party chairman. And the Democratic candidate made that an issue as well. Terry was also concerned about what was going on in the economy down there. He happens to own business in Florida

CARLSON: Many, many millions of dollars in business.

COELHO: No, that's the wrong business, so you've got it wrong there. So you've got to get your facts together.

CARLSON: I don't think that's true actually.

COELHO: But the point is that Terry had a variety of reasons why he thought Jeb Bush was wrong. And you know what? Jeb Bush was in serious trouble, and that debate that occurred turned it around. But Jeb Bush was in serious trouble and on this show we talked about it and you agreed that he was in trouble. He was in trouble.

CARLSON: He was in trouble until McBride blew it, but this idea that you defeat a guy simply because his brother is president, that's pathetic.

COELHO: But what you've done there is what you normally do. You take a quote out of 500,000 quotes and you try to make it into a big issue. But one thing that Bob said is he said the insurance companies were going to make a lot of money because they were going to take care of people to permit them to do this. That's a lot of money. I think that's a little bit of payback.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: I said that passing terrorism insurance would assure that what we have is...

COELHO: But who is going to provide it?

WALKER: Well, for one thing, what we're going to do -- most of the terrorism insurance is to provide a cap...

COELHO: But who is going to provide it?

WALKER: Well, some of the insurance is going to be provided by insurance companies, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

COELHO: That's what I was saying. That's what I thought. That's what I thought.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: I realize that Democrats want to take the companies out of business but...

COELHO: No, no, that's not what I'm saying.

CARLSON: I got to take a quick break. In a minute, we'll ask our guests if the Democrats will just fade away or be content with permanent minority status as a kind of less interesting green party.

And, there are going to be some red faces as we grade the predictions made on this show Monday night. You won't want to miss that. It's embarrassing. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back.

We're examining the political lessons of this year's election, and there are many. Most of them painful, most of them for Democrats. Our guests, Democratic strategist Tony Coelho and former Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Bob Walker.

BEGALA: Mr. Walker, let me give you a chance to feel my pain a little bit. And that is, the governor races were actually quite painful for the Republican Party. Let me show you a couple of maps.

We begin with the map of election night 2000, the very famous red/blue map. Let's take a look. The red states, of course, are states that George W. Bush carried in 2000. Now, look at what happened just last night.

Arizona, we put it at stripes, because they haven't -- Nepalitano (ph), the Democrat, former Clinton aide is leading, but we haven't called it. Oklahoma, too close to call still, but (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is going to lose, I promise you.

Kansas, Tennessee, Wyoming and Alabama -- in Alabama, both are declaring victory. Those are all going blue just last night. Now let's look at this map. This is the number of states that are Democratic now and will be Democratic in January. The majority of the American people today by January will live under Democratic governors.

Freedom, freedom, freedom finally. Democrats are actually running the states in America.

WALKER: Well, I think that's an interesting point. In large part, most people will live under Democratic governors because you still retain California, which is a big part of that. But let me show a map, too.

BEGALA: Tony represented California in the Congress. Pennsylvania, your home state, just went overwhelming for Ed Rendell, a Democrat.

WALKER: They did. And you did win some governorships, and that's probably the one thing you can crow about from last night. However, if you take a look at the northeast, you are left with only one Democratic governor in the entire northeast after last night.

BEGALA: But Maine and Pennsylvania's too.

WALKER: Well, I'm including -- basically New England and New York. I have Pennsylvania in the middle Atlantic. But the fact is if you include Pennsylvania, you only have two in the entire northeast quadrant. That used to be solid Democratic country. What happened?

If you take a look at some of those states...

COELHO: Do you think George Bush is going to win in New York? Give me a break.

WALKER: If you take a look at some of those places where you won governorships, you'll also find that Republicans won overwhelming victories in the legislative bodies, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Kansas and so on. And so it is clear that the vote was won for particular candidates, but Republicans did very, very well in the legislative races, which means that the farm teams that we're building are actually superior to yours.

CARLSON: Tony, the idea that this is going to help Democrats...

COELHO: Oh, that's really kind of interesting.

CARLSON: ... in 2004 -- in 1996, the Republicans held 30 governorships. It didn't help them at all with electoral votes in that election. The bottom line -- it remains -- right, but it was still a blowout. It remains true the Democrats have basically no one to run in 2004.

We hear today that Gary Hart, perhaps egged on by Walter Mondale and Frank Lautenberg, kind of the 1970's team, is going to get back in and maybe run for president. That's pretty sad. I mean you got to feel sad about that.

COELHO: I don't feel sad about anything. I think that basically what we have is we have a situation developing now, where we'll look and see what happens over the next year and who's going to run. We have a lot of candidates that want to run. Look, Tucker, the interesting thing about politics, I love it, is that the pendulum moves. And the public makes decisions.

They made a decision last night. And they haven't made a decision for two years from now. And it's exciting as we go forward. And I'll tell you what, if the economy is in serious trouble, hang on to your hat.

BEGALA: Absolutely.

COELHO: And I'll tell you what, right now, if you're in real estate, you've got to be concerned, very concerned. If the real estate industry goes down, it will affect the economy for another two years. So be careful.

It will be interesting to see who they put in Harvey Pitt's place, it will be interesting to see what the interest rate reduction does, because that's directed at the real estate -- at the real estate industry, and this whole thing with the economy is very, very serious. And if you listen to Bob...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: We can't have people this smart and not let the audience also have a chance to pick some brains. So go ahead, ma'am, what's your question or comment for these guys?

KIRSTEN FAUCHMAN (ph): Hi. My name is Kirsten Fauchman (ph), I'm from Peachtree City, Georgia. My question is, how do you the new GOP governance will affect judicial nominations, specifically the Supreme Court?

BEGALA: Bob Walker first, you're Republican.

WALKER: Well, I think very clearly that we will now be able to get judicial nominees out of the Judiciary Committee and onto the floor for votes, and I think once those nominees come out on the floor for votes, because they are quality people, a majority of the Senate is going to vote for them. And so, therefore, you've got an opportunity to move judicial nominations of all kinds. Supreme Court takes more votes than that, but it will assure that -- I think that President Bush's judicial nominees and his Supreme Court nominations, if some of those come, will have a very good chance of passage in a new Congress.

BEGALA: And Tony, some of those nominees for the Supreme Court are going to look like the third guy from the left in the evolutionary chart, right? The sort of knuckle-dragging...

COELHO: The Christian right, who has been playing ball, all of a sudden are going to demand their pound of flesh, and that's what we're going to see for the Supreme Court. It is going to be very interesting.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: I think that's nonsense.

COELHO: I let you talk, I let you talk. Just let me finish. I let you talk. So basically what's going to happen now is that the Christian right, who has played ball, is going to insist, and you're going to have real serious troubles...

WALKER: What's wrong with the fact they're Christian?

COELHO: And I'll tell you -- I have no trouble with the fact they're Christian.

CARLSON: You sound like you do.

COELHO: No, I don't. I have trouble with the fact that they are absolute on the right-hand side conservative, and I'll tell you -- let me finish.

(CROSSTALK)

COELHO: And I'll tell you what -- what's going to happen is that they are going to our base, and that's what's going to help us out again. They're going to get our base exercised...

BEGALA: Bob Walker gets the last word.

WALKER: On the Judiciary Committee, Chuck Schumer has been an absolute absolutist, and said that anybody who didn't agree with his philosophy couldn't leave the committee.

CARLSON: He is a total extremist.

WALKER: He is a total extremist, and you guys have practiced extremism. You're not going to see that from the Bush administration.

BEGALA: Oh, we're going to hold you to that.

COELHO: We'll quote you on that one, baby.

BEGALA: Bob Walker, former congressman from Pennsylvania, Republican, Tony Coelho, former congressman from California. Two of the best. Thank you very much. Stay with just for a second. Still ahead, the single most memorable image of election night 2002. Here's a hint, it was a CROSSFIRE co-host, and he didn't have his foot in it. Up next, the results all of America is waiting to hear. Stand by for another look at our CROSSFIRE hosts elections predictions. For me, I don't have to ask my wife what's for dinner, because I am going to be eating crow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Of course, on Monday night, those of you who were watching, saw Bob Novak and Tucker Carlson, as well as Carville and myself fearlessly predict the outcome of the congressional elections. Our motto: "often wrong, never in doubt."

So, pass the barbecue sauce. Time for us to eat some of our words. Let me start with brother Carlson, he got the Senate right. Good for you, Tucker. The reality was this, start with the real world -- Republicans gained two seats in the Senate, and three seats in the House. Tucker, spot on in the Senate, good for you, way off on the House. Irrational exuberance me thinks.

CARLSON: Actually guessing.

BEGALA: Yes, well, that is about what I did.

CARLSON: OK. On to the Begalian (ph) picks. Paul, balance of power, Senate plus three. Tragically wrong, thankfully wrong.

BEGALA: Way wrong.

CARLSON: House plus three GOP, however, you are spot on so far, not counting the four races not yet called, it could be up to seven, you could be wrong again.

BEGALA: I think only, actually, one of those four are likely to go to the Republicans, so at least in the House, not good news for my party, but there's Uncle James, as my boys call him there. Senate plus two for the Democrats, slightly off, and the House, plus two for the Republicans, almost exactly right. So not a bad pick either from James.

CARLSON: And Robert D. Novak. Senate, plus one Republicans -- he was bold enough to predict a Republican takeover of the Senate. Good for you, Bob. House plus four, he is almost exactly right there.

BEGALA: Well, you know, that's -- actually, we're not -- you were right, we were all guessing. But it wasn't all that bad. We promised we'd eat our words, and we did.

The big error was people like me and James thinking that Democrats would hold the Senate...

CARLSON: Well, in your defense, a lot of people thought that.

Still to come, instead of a quote of the day, we have a picture of the day that perfectly and unforgettably captures the essence of election night, and stars someone close to our hearts.

But next, what could be possibly wrong with the political agenda that offers nothing but obstructionism and higher taxes? Stand by for some Democratic soul-searching as CROSSFIRE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you as we always do from the George Washington University here Downtown Washington.

All day Democrats have been asking themselves if it's time for their party to find some new leadership. Well as we reported at the top of our show Congressman Dick Gephardt has decided not to seek another term as minority leader. Which begs the question, what in the world is going on inside the Democratic Party?

Joining us from Memphis, Tennessee tonight is Democratic Congressman Harold Ford.

BEGALA: Congressman Ford, it's good to see you again, sir. Thank you for joining us.

REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: Thanks for having me.

BEGALA: CNN is reporting that tomorrow Mr. Gephardt will announce that he's going to step down, or step aside as the leader of the House Democrats.

But earlier today, long before CNN was reporting it, you were giving him a shove. Why?

FORD: No, I didn't really give him a shove. I reminded , I think, most Democrats in the House what many Democrats across the country were sharing with me today.

The question to ask is, what happened? Where was the message and why couldn't you convey it? I think at some level, the leadership in the House, on the democratic side, has to take responsibility. I would imagine there were distractions: the snipers -- which I'm happy and delighted we caught -- the Iraq resolution -- which occupied most of Congress's attention for a good deal of time. But there was still two to three weeks to focus on the issues and Democrats really did not have a coherent message.

Dick Gephardt, let me say this, is one of the finest leaders this nation has known. He's the hardest working, biggest money raiser and frankly the most passionate Democrat in the House. But much like a manager of a baseball team who really, really wants to win, is beloved by his players but simply can't win. Sometimes it's time to move on. And now might be a time for infusion of new ideas and new faces within the leadership of the House on the Democratic side. BEGALA: Well let me ask you...

FORD: And I hope to play a role in helping to shape -- I didn't mean to interrupt you -- but hope to play a role in shaping the agenda and platform that Democrats will pursue as we enter really a new era of governing with the Republicans having the majority in the House, Senate, White House and an edge even on the Supreme Court.

BEGALA: Well me too, Congressman Ford. So let's do it together right now, here, live on national television. I hope you'll join me -- I want you first to tell me what Dick Gephardt did wrong. And I used to work for him so I'm biased and I love him.

But I guess what I would do differently is this: I would have confronted Bush and called for a repeal of the Bush tax cuts and confronted the administration on this rush to war. I gather that you -- you're for repealing the Bush tax cut and you're against Bush's rush to war on Iraq. But you're principal issues that I think we took a pass on in 2002 elections.

FORD: I supported the resolution. 9/11 changed things for me as I'm sure it did for you and Tucker. I just had a different opinion. I think that you can inflict major harm without a missile delivery system. You can do it with a suitcase, or a small cargo ship, or small boat...

BEGALA: So that means you have the same position as Mr. Gephardt so then it must be then, that you want to, like me, repeal the Bush tax cut, which is something Mr. Gephardt was unwilling to call for. I think he was maybe worried about political ramifications. Or maybe he was worried about other members of his caucus in political trouble.

FORD: It's obvious that the tax cut Congress passed, which I did not vote for last year, is not working. If the economy had continued to perform at the rate it did in the 90s when you worked at the White House, Mr. Begala, perhaps we could have afforded some of those things. But frankly, it's not producing a turnaround.

I think we need a new kind of stimulus, perhaps to freeze those tax cuts to the point -- or I should say up to a point in which the economy begins to perform again at that rate and perhaps enact a new immediate tax rebate plan in the form of some payroll tax holiday, something that Gene Sperling and others have talked about in accelerated appreciation schedule to promote business investment, even to eliminate the double tax on dividends.

And for states with so many Democrats and Republicans elected to governors seats across the nation yesterday, faced with great health care challenges and education problems, we should change the formulas on Medicaid and Medicare for underserved rural and urban areas. And we even provide some moneys for school construction. It could all be part of what I call a $250 billion stimulus package.

But I think the next leader on our side will not only have to present a coherent plan and be willing to challenge the president when he's wrong and support him when he's right, but be one who's able to bring the caucus together. We're a diverse caucus and...

CARLSON: Mr. Ford, I want to talk to you about the next leader. Some Democrats, and you heard Paul Begala do it, have argued the party needs to embrace, essentially, the Streisand Agenda. Farther left, more vegetarianism, more sandals, Patchouli. I mean take the party back in time to when it was a liberal party, the party of George McGovern.

Now, news tonight is that Nancy Pelosi is the leading contender, she's a part of that wing in the party, to replace Congressman Dick Gephardt. Is this a positive development?

FORD: Well, Nancy has every right to run. And I would imagine she's going to have to present to Democrats in the House her message, her plan and where she takes the caucus and, frankly, how she will take us there.

I think there will be great reluctance, in little of what we saw yesterday, to veer too far to the left or for that matter to too far to the right, which wouldn't be a problem likely in the Democratic caucus. I think those who won yesterday were those who -- Democrats that is, were those Democrats who focus on solutions and answers to problems faced by American families all across the nation.

So if you present what I consider a moderate, kind of middle of the road plan focused on answers willing to adhere to which ever party has the best set of ideas, I think that's the kind of person we need as leader.

CARLSON: Mr. Ford, you and I agree on this. You said that Nancy Pelosi has the right to run. I believe she does have that legal right. Not an endorsement, though. You sound appalled by the idea of her running. I'm just interpreting the way you sound.

Martin Frost of Texas, much more conservative, much more moderate -- a term you would use -- from Texas will be challenging her. Do you support Martin Frost against Nancy Pelosi?

FORD: I'm going to wait to hear from both of the candidates. I will say that Martin's views and my views are far closer than Ms. Pelosi. However, Ms. Pelosi is the whip in the caucus, highly respected and will certainly put forth a great, great effort for this seat.

Again, I think the person has to be someone also who can bring people together and not alienate parts of the caucus. I think one of the central questions for Ms. Pelosi will be can she hold on to the moderate and conservative wing of the party?

And one of key questions for Martin is that since he's been part of the leadership, can his distinguish himself from some of the things that some in the Democratic caucus believe the old leadership represents? It'll be an interesting race. But I must say that my views are probably closer in line with Martin's.

BEGALA: Congressman Ford, we only have about 15 seconds left. Let me ask you briefly what is the best way then for Democrats to go -- to deal with President Bush? Should we get along with him more or fight with him more?

FORD: Well, I think you have to stand for something and when the president is in line or aligned with what you stand for you support him. But when not, I think you have to be willing to take him on.

And frankly, we didn't take him on enough on the issues that I think Americans cared about: jobs and the economy and all of the things associated with that, including education and health. We didn't do it in quite the way we should have. And as a result, I think the voters went to the polls yesterday and rewarded the party with the message and rewarded the party who repeated their message over and over again.

I don't think that message is going to help America. And that's part of challenge as Democrats here in the next two years is not only to stand in the way, but to be part of the answer, be part of the solution. And the next leader in the Democratic caucus is going to have to be able to lead this caucus in that direction.

BEGALA: Congressman Harold Ford, Jr. from Memphis, Tennessee. Thank you very much for joining us, sir.

FORD: Thank you.

BEGALA: Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, one of our viewers looks ahead to life in the Republican Party's version of one-party America.

Next, the one election night picture that everybody is talking about just happens to feature on of CROSSFIRE's own. Stay tuned to look at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back.

There are many memorable, delightful images from election night 2002. The shock on the faces of countless Democrats, the joy in the eyes of their Republican counterparts.

But the most memorable image of the day came from someone whose face and eyes were hidden. Here it is direct from CNN's election night coverage, the CROSSFIRE picture of the day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: I would say bad night for Democrats. James Carville feels the same way.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Well, I'm not saying that I'm embarrassed.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: I've kind of had my head in the right place.

CARLSON: Well, I must say, James, I can see why you feel that way.

BEGALA: I've never met this guy. Any of you know him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Well good for him. I mean that's -- good for him for being honest. Better than Terry McAuliffe pretending that everything's fine.

BEGALA: Terry McAuliffe is a great guy, he's a great party chairman. Democrats ought to rally behind him.

But Carville, I just -- you've got to admit. The stunt of the day. I love James and I love when he does this stuff.

Now, there are a few hand wringers in my party who've been e- mailing and saying, Why did he do that?

CARLSON: How does Barbra feel?

BEGALA: My message to that is three words: get a life.

See, you know what? I don't know. You've been talking to Jerry Falwell probably a whole lot more, so how does Reverend Falwell feel about this?

CARLSON: I don't ever defend Jerry Falwell and you always defend Barbra Streisand and that's the key difference in.

BEGALA: Because he's nuts and she terrific. There's a big difference.

CARLSON: But he's a...

BEGALA: When we come back, you'll get the chance to "Fireback" at us. There's plenty of ammo, I'm sure. Despite the claims of people like Tucker Carlson, the Democratic Party is on the comeback. You watch. And we will "Fireback after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. It is time now for "Fireback." And boy, you've been firing back at us. Keep them coming.

Keren Sachs here in our nation's capital, Washington, D.C., a city under occupation, says, "Here, here to our new Republican government. Kids will be praying in their free private religious schools for the safety of our soldiers fighting the War in Iraq. But the wealthiest 1 percent need not worry, our government will take care of you. Way to go W."

Excellent point, Keren. A lot of good news in yesterday's election returns. CARLSON: What a paranoid group Democrats are.

Joe Murphy from Orlando, Fla (sic) writes: "I've been in the Democratic Party since the RFK days. We got what we deserved." Oooh, hit me again. "We had no back bone, no agenda and it showed at the polls. I disagree the Bush administration on almost everything, but at least they stood by their convictions."

That's right. He's an honest Democrat.

BEGALA: Joe Murphy, part of the stand up and fight wing. I'm with you, Joe.

Jonathan Williams in Ames, Iowa writes: "Mr. Begala," -- that would be my dad, I'm just Paul -- "I know it's frustrating to see the far right gain control of Congress. But things are not all bad. For better or for worse, the GOP has just been given all the rope it needs to hang itself, and has been robbed of its scapegoats. It is so much harder to hide extremism when it's exposed in all its glory."

That's a good point, Jonathan.

CARLSON: The far right. I love this.

BEGALA: The kook right, I prefer. It's not politically correct.

CARLSON: The name calling. I mean all these guys are just like moderate Democrats -- I mean moderate Republicans. I'm the far right.

BEGALA: Jerry Falwell?

CARLSON: I mean, come on, give me a break.

BEGALA: Kook right.

CARLSON: He's got nothing to do with anything.

Gerry Whipple from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania writes: "Maybe once the Democrats realize you need a message instead of bumper sticker they'll get some votes."

But you know what, Gerry Whipple? They're great bumper sticker writers. "Visualize world peace," do you think a Republican thought that up? I don't think so.

BEGALA: "When they pry my cold, dead hands of off my uzi," that's a Republican bumper sticker.

CARLSON: Amen. It's one of my favorites. And we have a question. yes, ma'am?

BEGALA: Yes, ma'am. What's your question?

QUESTION: Meaghan Gates (ph). I'm a student here in D.C. Despite what happened last night I'm proud to say that I'm a Democrat and my friends are proud to say that they're Democrats. The Republicans may be safe now but in 2004 we're coming back and stronger than ever.

BEGALA: That's the right attitude, Meaghan.

CARLSON: With Gary Hart, I hope. I hope you support the candidacy of Gary Hart. Bring back Gary Hart. Oh, he's pathetic.

BEGALA: I love people who support Dick Cheney worrying about anybody else being fit or too old. I love Dick Cheney, I hope he lives and serves forever but...

CARLSON: Gary Hart's quite a fit, vigorous man.

BEGALA: Yeah, you know.

CARLSON: Yes, sir?

BEGALA: Well he is. He's very vigorous.

CARLSON: He's a very vigorous man.

QUESTION: I'm Todd Grove (ph) from Spokane, Washington. I'm wondering will it be harder to vote outside party lines in Congress now further hindering bipartisan cooperation?

BEGALA: That's a great point and I actually wanted to ask these congressmen that. Why would any Democrat now want to cooperate with President Bush? A lot of good Democrats, Jeanne Carnahan, Max Cleland voted with President Bush on his most important things and he came in their state and beat their ass. That's legitimate, that's politics, but any Democrat that again cooperates with Bush is a fool.

CARLSON: Well, I don't know. It's not all politics. I mean there is after all a country to run. I'm not sure you're aware of that.

BEGALA: A country club, I guess is what Bush would think.

CARLSON: And some things are just -- correct, so you vote for them and vote your beliefs. That's sort of what it's all about, I thought. But maybe not.

BEGALA: But why would anybody ever cooperate with Bush again? In my party?

Yes, sir?

CARLSON: Yes, sir?

QUESTION: Hi. I'm Richard Chang (ph) from San Diego, California. Given Terry McAuliffe's pronouncement that this year's political battle ground would be thwarted this year and his embarrassment after what he said, is his days of being the DNC chairman numbered?

CARLSON: Well he said this morning on CNN, on Paula Zahn's show that he had many more years, two at least left, I think, as chairman of the party.

I sure hope so. I think he's doing great job. Last night was terrific.

BEGALA: The party chairman's job is to do the money and the mechanics. Terry has done both of those things. It's not his job to do the message. That's the job of our elected officials and...

CARLSON: Wait, wait. Who's job is it? No honestly. Is it his job to do the message.

BEGALA: No, it's not.

CARLSON: Well then who else is going to do it? Where's the message guy?

BEGALA: Our elected officials.

CARLSON: Oh, Dick Gephardt, the one that just resigned? Oh, OK.

BEGALA: That's why Harold Ford what banging on...

CARLSON: That's why Barbra Streisand, the new message person of the Democratic Party -- it all comes back to Barbra, doesn't it?

BEGALA: I'd take Barbra Streisand against Jerry Falwell any day of the week.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night, Reverend Falwell, from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now, have a great night.

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Seek Another Term as Minority Leader>