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CNN Crossfire

Canadian Sacked After Comment Overheard

Aired November 26, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: look out Washington. Here comes the new Republican Congress with a new social and political agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'll work with Democrats and Republicans in the next Congress to pass a growth and jobs package early next year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Do the Republicans have the right stuff?

If Congress and Wall Street had followed his advice, your 401(k) might be feeling more thankful this Thanksgiving. What's on his menu now?

And Pat Robertson wishes President Bush had never said...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Islam is peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Can Islam be peaceful, or is it a religion of the sword? And, what if it's both?

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, the Republican's Trojan horse arrives on Capitol Hill. It looks to me like a lot like Jerry Falwell's social agenda and Enron's economic policy. Also, the evil empire. According to some right wing preachers, it's actually Islam. But first, the moment I know you've all been praying for, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

President Bush had a busy day today. First he signed into law a bill that puts you on the hook for up to $262 billion in the form of a potential taxpayer bailout in the insurance industry. Now, big insurance lost a pile on 9/11 and in the stock market, but they somehow managed to scrape together several million dollars to contribute to Mr. Bush and the GOP.

President Bush, in turn, tapped already strapped taxpayers to bail out big insurance. Ain't free enterprise great?

Speaking of turkeys, President Bush pardoned Katie, a turkey. She will live out her life on a farm in Virginia instead of becoming somebody's Thanksgiving Day feast. Bush seemed a little awkward, and maybe even a little scared of the big bird, when I watched the tape. But White House aides say Mr. Bush was not in fact afraid to touch the turkey, he was just keeping with his long-standing policy of not shaking hands with anyone until they gave him a large corporate donation.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: You know what, Paul, they had to pass this terrorism insurance bill in order to have some building going on in the big hotels across the country, and those are jobs, jobs, jobs. And as far as the president going through with this silly annual requirement that your president had to go through of pardoning the turkey, he just did he fine. When you attack George Bush at every corner, it makes you look like a turkey.

BEGALA: They don't need to bail out big insurance. I thought you didn't like government getting around in big business and getting in the way of business? Why do we bail them out? We don't bail out a working stiff who lost his job through no fault of his own and can't pay off his own health insurance. Why don't we bail them out?

NOVAK: The working stiffs -- of course all the Democrats voted for this bill -- the working stiffs are going to get jobs because of it.

Francois Ducros, the senior Canadian official who became an American household word by calling George W. Bush a moron finally was sacked today. Ducros, who was Prime Minister Jean Chretien's communications director, was overheard at the NATO summit in Prague last week saying of President Bush, "What a moron." Canadian opposition leaders demanded her resignation, but Prime Minister Chretien is a stubborn man and figured the storm would subside over last weekend.

It didn't. CTV reports that Chretien's advisers watched us hash the issue over again on CROSSFIRE last night and decided she had to go. What a government. What a country.

BEGALA: What a show. I'm sorry I wasn't here to participate in that, but that's a lot of power you guys have. But fundamentally, come on. I mean, President Bush, when he was Governor Bush in the campaign, confused the prime minister of Canada with a plate of cheese fries.

They call them -- it's called puton (ph), it's one of their snacks up there. And they asked him how he felt about Prime Minister Puton (ph) endorsing him for president. The guy was so ignorant -- I don't think he's a moron, but he is massively ignorant -- and he thought that a plate of cheese fries was the Canadian prime minister. What do you think they should think about him? NOVAK: Well, the point of the matter is, that if Joe Lockhart had called the prime minister of Canada a moron, he would have been out like that. You know it.

BEGALA: What other outrageous thing did she say? I think she said Shaquille O'Neill was tall. Well, OK. There are a few obvious things we can state for the record.

Today's "New York Times"-CBS poll, though, shows that while most Americans like George W. Bush, they don't much like his Republican policies. Only 37 percent of Americans support making Mr. Bush's tax cut for the rich permanent. Just 23 percent think the tax cuts were a good idea at all. And a whopping 73 percent say they have done no good or maybe even damaged the economy.

Moreover, nearly 60 percent say that the Bush tax cuts do in fact benefit the wealthy. Meanwhile, Americans overwhelmingly oppose the Bush plan to drill for oil in the Arctic wilderness. And while Bush is relaxing clean air standards, 62 percent of Americans want more government regulation of the environment, not less. Clearly, the American people are responding to this hot new best seller, "It's Still the Economy, Stupid," which in addition to making the case for new economic polices, also makes a great stock stuffer for the holidays.

NOVAK: That's your book.

BEGALA: And it's a fine book. Didn't you enjoy it?

NOVAK: It's one of the most wonderful left wing pieces I've ever read. You know, Paul, I'll tell you something. You Democrats keep coming out against tax cuts, for government regulation, and we'll have more election results like we had on November 5. I guarantee it.

Al and Tipper Gore are on the second week of their book tour blitz. But their book, "Joined at the Heart," isn't doing any better at sales than Al is doing in political polls. The book is ranked number 447 nationally in Barnes and Noble sales. But that's pretty good compared to Amazon.com's number 1,693.

The companion photo book, "The Spirit of the Family," is selling just as poorly. Now don't cry for the Gores. Cry for the publishers. Henry Holding (ph) Company, who gave the Gores a seven-figure advance.

Oh, the "New York Times" best seller list lists the book at number 21. How is that possible? Well, you know the "New York Times," don't you, Paul?

BEGALA: Well, that's the most reputable of the list. But I think what's remarkable about the book is that Al and Tipper Gore didn't write just about themselves and how great they are. They actually wrote about other people, which is very rare for politicians.

I think it's terrific. And, you know what's going to sell a lot of books for him? Al Gore is going to come on CROSSFIRE. He's going to face Novak, and he's going to best you. NOVAK: Hold your breath, baby.

BEGALA: Well, the Bush administration has a plan to dramatically expand the government's ability to spy on us. Part of that effort, the Information Awareness Office is located in the Pentagon. Now, the agency's logo about the creepiest thing you've ever seen and its Latin motto means knowledge is power.

Critics fear Orwellian big brother snooping at its worst. So who has George W. Bush chosen to entrust with this awesome power? None other than John Poindexter, the disgraced Iran-Contra figure who was convicted of five felony counts of lying to Congress and other related crimes during the Reagan administration.

His conviction was overturned on a technicality, but that has hardly satisfied critics. Let me defend him. Sure Poindexter is a convicted felon and liar, but it's important to note he was only lying about national security, not something important like sex.

NOVAK: You know, Admiral Poindexter -- I don't think you understand how the American justice system works. Admiral Poindexter was railroaded by an overzealous special independent counsel who was attacking all the Republican appointees. He was cleared and he's a great patriot.

The winner of the first weekly democrats.com presidential straw vote is Al Gore with 365 votes, followed by John Kerry with 159. That's no surprise. The surprise is who ranks 12th with 57 votes. Our own Paul Begala. Begala for president.

He's tied with Jimmy Carter. He's got more votes than Tom Daschle, more than Dick Gephardt, more than Joe Lieberman, more than the Reverend Al Sharpton. What a good idea. I may shift from Sharpton to Begala as my democratic choice for '04. Absolutely nobody reflects narrow-minded vicious liberalism better than my colleague, Paul. So let's hear it for Begala in '04.

BEGALA: Thank you, Bob. That's a -- that's democrats.com? I only have 57 votes. I want everybody to come and vote for me, push me up past Gore, and then we'll see how I do. OK?

NOVAK: In a minute, we'll look ahead to the real agenda of the new Republican Congress and not just the cartoon version being put out by James Carville and his nefarious friends. Later, a prominent Christian preacher takes a swipe at Islam and he isn't alone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Republicans are riding high in the wake of this month's election, and for good reason. They have a 64 percent approval rating in the new CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll. It's considerably lower, about 51 percent, in "The New York Times"-CBS poll, but that is still six points better than my fellow Democrats have.

But if you read a little deeper, both polls show that the public has doubts about the president's agenda, with Americans expressing concerns about everything from President Bush's tax cuts to his environmental policies to his judges. So the question is, do Republicans really have the right stuff for the voters?

Stepping into the CROSSFIRE, Democratic strategist and former Congressman and former Gore campaign Chairman, Tony Coelho. And Republican Bob Walker, a former Congressman from Pennsylvania.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Tony Coelho...

TONY COELHO, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: Can I say something first? I'm happy to be with president Begala. I want to be your campaign chairman.

NOVAK: Do you think you'll do as good a job as you did for Gore?

COELHO: Yes.

NOVAK: Mr. Coelho, one of the issues that the Democratic propagandists say just is the third rail of politics, you talk about it in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is Social Security. All the Republican candidates who talked about the Social Security reform of private investment did very well. And we just took a little poll out here.

Every time I take a poll with people under 40 we always get a majority that say they'd like to invest it. But forget this. Take a look at the CNN-TIME poll. Investing Social Security in market, favor 50 percent, oppose 43 percent. You're on a bad issue there, aren't you?

COELHO: Bring it on, baby. Bring it on. We'd love to debate it. Just bring it on, and let's see where the American people are after you bring it up in the House and the Senate and we'd love to have you pursue it.

NOVAK: How is it in the heat of a campaign -- I think you've got to think about this, Tony.

COELHO: I've thought a lot about it. I've thought about it since 1981.

NOVAK: I know, but you've got to have some new thoughts. John Sununu in New Hampshire, Norm Coleman in Minnesota, Elizabeth Dole in North Carolina, Lindsey Graham in South Carolina, they all campaigned very hard on this issue and they won. John Thune walked away from it in South Dakota and lost.

COELHO: Yes. And I'm sure all those campaigns are as simplistic as that, Bob. And they won and lost on that issue. And you've been pushing this issue forever, and I hope you prevail, because I would love to have George Bush and the Republicans in the House and Senate come out for it. We'd love to take this issue on.

BEGALA: I think one of the reasons, Bob, that Tony is so strong on this, as am I and most Democrats, is that it requires and extraordinary amount of trust to say, let's hand over to President Bush and to corporate America part of our Social Security. And...

BOB WALKER, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: What? No one is talking about doing that.

BEGALA: Of course President Bush has proposed totally privatizing Social Security.

WALKER: He hasn't done that either.

BEGALA: On May 17 of 2000, sir, he told the "Houston Chronicle's" R.G. Radcliff (ph) that his proposal to partially privatize it was only the first step in a long process to totally privatize Social Security.

WALKER: But the fact is that what we've been talking about is allowing people to invest some of their own money in an account which is for them. Now, you know I don't think that's such an outrageous idea.

Even when I was a young kid, my mother told me that saving some money toward the future was a good thing. We want to make certain that people have that opportunity to do savings. But it's optional for them. They don't have to participate in the program under what's being proposed.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Let me show you the poll that "The New York Times" and CBS released today. Our president has a 65 percent approval rating in handling his job in general. Very good, very impressive. When you ask them about handling the economy, it collapses down to 45 percent. The base Republican vote. Doesn't that suggest that Americans don't trust Bush to run the economy except partisan Republicans?

WALKER: No, I don't think it suggests that at all. I think what it suggests is that people are concerned about the economy but they trust President Bush's leadership.

NOVAK: What's the negative vote, Paul?

BEGALA: It's the same, 45. So it's not exactly an endorsement of President Bush's...

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: But the fact is...

BEGALA: ... he's got a 65 percent overall and 45 percent differential.

WALKER: ... the fact is that people are reflecting reality. That the economy is not what they wish it to be. But the fact...

BEGALA: Nor are Bush's policies, right? WALKER: No, I don't think that's true at all. I think the American people just decided in election on Bush's policy. And the fact is that he's going to move forward trying to get some growth into this economy.

You cannot move forward unless this economy is growing. You can't have a growing economy if what you do is tax it to death and regulate it to death. And the president has a very firm agenda toward having growth that will produce jobs and work and a better future for everyone. So that's real.

NOVAK: Tony Coelho, you have a reputation -- I hope it's deserved -- as a very shrewd politician. Don't you think it is time that the Democrats...

COELHO: You've got to be careful when he starts that way.

NOVAK: ... stop banging their heads against the wall on this tax cut issue? Poor Fritz Mondale lost in 1984. They brought him back how many years later? Twenty-eight years later. People don't like tax increases.

It killed the candidate for governor of Florida. It has killed all your candidates. Isn't it time for you to understand that, when you say we're not going to give the rich a tax cut, people know that if you don't give the rich a tax cut, they're not going to give anybody a tax cut?

COELHO: You haven't changed that speech in years that I've known you. But I think that the issue here is, what are you going to do with the money that people give to the government to spend on programs that are supposed to help them out? What they've decided -- if you look at that same poll, they basically are concerned about the fact that that money is being spent not to reduce the deficit, not to reduce the debt, not to take care of health care, not to take care of the programs that they want. And that's why the poll numbers on there are saying to the Republicans that you better watch out what you're doing.

I happen to think...

NOVAK: I think I'm in the twilight zone here.

COELHO: You always have been, but that's all right.

NOVAK: On November 5, the Republicans won and...

COELHO: I agree totally. And I want you to go ahead.

NOVAK: Let me ask the question. Didn't you get murdered on this tax issue in state after state after state? In fact, most of your candidates were afraid to come out against the Bush tax cuts.

COELHO: No, I don't think that's what the election was all about at all. BEGALA: That's why they lost, because they didn't come out against the Bush tax cut. They supported the Bush tax cut and they lost. Let me show you again another question of "The New York Times"- CBS poll.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: But just one comment. Tony, the American people don't give the money to federal government, it's coerced from them.

COELHO: Oh, yeah. OK.

BEGALA: Bob, just a moment.

COELHO: We live in a dictatorship, right?

WALKER: Well, it's coerced from them by the government.

BEGALA: The CBS-"New York Times" poll asked people should we make the tax cut permanent. Forty-five yes, 44 no. But then they asked a sub-sample of that audience, should we make the Bush tax cuts permanent, adding, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the popular president's name and the support collapses to 37 yes, 52 no. A 16-point meltdown when you tell them it's Bush's tax cuts. Isn't that because they know the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is just for the rich?

WALKER: Well, obviously, Bush is not just for the rich. Bush is for the economy in a way that gives everybody a chance. Now, the fact is that if you don't make the tax cuts permanent at some point here you cannot get the kind of growth that the tax cut was designed to give you.

NOVAK: We're out of time. In a minute, we'll try to get the unspin doctor version of the Republican social agenda. Later, the man who watched the Internet bubble grow and got out before it blew up in the Bush administration's face.

And when Muslims say their prayers, are they really praying for peace? The Reverend Pat Robertson says no.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. When Congress changes hands in January, a number of social issues will be coming out of the Democratic deep freeze and going on to the Republican front burner. Despite the yelling by certain Democrats, it won't be the end of the world. In fact, the world may get a little better.

In the CROSSFIRE are Democratic strategist, former California Congressman Tony Coelho and Republican Bob Walker, former Congressman from Pennsylvania.

BEGALA: Before we get to those social issues, let me finish one more economic issue we didn't have time for in our last, and that is the bill the president signed today. The so-called terrorism insurance bill, which is an enormous bailout for big insurance companies and not a dime for citizens' families who have lost their health coverage through no fault of their own.

So we called the people at Families USA. It's a group that tries to increase health care coverage.

WALKER: It is a Democratic group.

BEGALA: No it's not.

NOVAK: It is a Democratic group. Come on! Give me a break.

BEGALA: Only Democrats of course do believe in trying to insure everybody so, in that sense, they're a little bit Democratic.

NOVAK: Is this Pollack's (ph) group?

BEGALA: Yes.

NOVAK: It's a Democratic group.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: It doesn't mean they're wrong. Here's what they said. Basically for the price of this bill, $100 billion alone could cover all the uninsured children in this country. With the $200 billion left over, we could cover their parents. That's roughly the cost of what we're giving big insurance companies for nothing. Why do we bail out big insurance companies and billionaire developers and not families who need health care?

WALKER: The fact is, what you're doing is providing a guarantee on terrorism and so on. And the fact is that nobody...

BEGALA: Why not do that for health care?

WALKER: Nobody wants to bet a company anymore. Most of these companies are -- have the workers' pension plans in them. Now do you want every time that there is a terrorism incident to knock out the pension plans of most workers who are invested in the stock market, including insurance companies? That's where the money is. And the fact is that you can provide some assurance to those companies that terrorism will not be used as a way of destroying the economic fiber of this country.

BEGALA: Help me understand what it is in Republican theology that makes it good to bail out multi-billion-dollar insurance companies but bad to bail out struggling families? If you're for bail outs, my goodness, I'm for bail outs. But I'd rather start with the little guy.

WALKER: It's not a bailout at all.

BEGALA: Of course it is.

WALKER: What it is, is an attempt to say if terrorism strikes this country, we do not allow our companies to go under and thereby bring down the stock market and bring down people's pension plans. It is a protection of families from that standpoint.

NOVAK: All right. Tony Coelho, there has been something interesting going on there. A lot of journalists and politicians are saying that the Republicans campaign on economic issues. There is a debate (UNINTELLIGIBLE) they're going to social issues. And these are very unpopular issues.

Now of course they campaign on social issues as well as economic issues. But I want to just show you what the public sentiment is on a couple of these social issues. Abortion laws should be more strict or less strict? More strict, 47 percent, less strict 12 percent.

How about this one? Cloning designed to result in the birth of a new human being. Approved nine percent, disapproved 88 percent. We can go down the line. The people are socially conservative, are they not?

COELHO: Well does this mean -- are you telling me that this is what the agenda of the Republican Party is going to be come January and February? Is that what you are saying?

NOVAK: I ask the questions and you answer them.

COELHO: You imply that that's what they were going to do. Is this going to be the agenda?

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I hope it is. I hope it's part of it. What's wrong with that?

COELHO: Well, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I would love to have a debate on this. I think there are a lot of women across this country who want to make sure that they have some choices, and that you White males, you old White males like me, don't make all the decisions. And I think that one of the things we need to be concerned about are what other people think, not just what you and I think.

NOVAK: Let me ask you this. Do you think the American people are for -- just a minute. Let me ask the question before you answer it. For partial birth abortion and for teenage promiscuity? Answer the question.

COELHO: Let me tell you what, Bob. I am not for abortion. But I'll tell you what, I don't think I should tell women that they are or are not. I think women should have choice.

NOVAK: What about partial-birth abortion?

COELHO: That's what this debate is all about, is choice. Whether or not you White males, old White males make the decisions for them or do women make...

NOVAK: So you're for permitting this barbarous technique that Pat Moynahan said is the next thing to genocide? COELHO: No, I am not. I think the issue is who makes the decision. That's your problem.

BEGALA: Let me ask you, Mr. Walker, about another divisive social history. Now you were -- we were talking about this in the break -- highly respected on both sides of the aisle as one of the leaders in the science and technology committee on Capitol Hill. As such, you must have been troubled by the report in today's "New York Times" that Secretary of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, is imposing a right wing political correctness on the scientists at the Centers for Disease Control, telling them what public health information they can put out about things like condoms and other touchy sexual issues that are no longer driven by what scientists and doctors think are best, but they're going to be driven by what right wing politicians in Washington think is best. You must think that is wrong, don't you?

WALKER: Well, I think that Tommy Thompson has looked at this very, very carefully and determined that there are some things that the federal government ought not be in the process of advocating. You know the problem is that the federal government does two roles here and so on. It's not just the dissemination of information.

It actually gets in the business of advocacy. And I think what Tommy Thompson is saying is that, regardless of what the title might be, that the federal government just ought not to be in the business of advocacy in those areas. And there are plenty of other people out there in society to advocate. We don't need the federal government doing it.

BEGALA: Well, that will have to be the last word. Bob Walker, former Congressman from Pennsylvania, thank you very much for joining us. Tony Coelho, former Congressman from California. Both two of the smartest guys on this team. Thank you for taking time on a holiday week. Excellent debate.

Coming up in a CNN NEWS ALERT, Connie Chung will have more details about an emergency government order that involves the airplanes you may be flying on this holiday week.

Then a man that Republicans in Congress should have listened to back when he was in power. You would probably be a whole lot wealthier if they had.

And we'll ask why the Reverend Pat Robertson seems so intent on restarting the crusades. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

BEGALA: Coming up, a man who spent most of the '90s trying to get big business to clean up its act and had to fight the GOP every step of the way. Well, what's his advice now? Stay tuned and you'll get it.

Also, as we enter the season of peace and goodwill, why are some right wing creatures preaching hate?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

During the Clinton administration, Arthur Levitt was chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, an agency that's been in the news and in trouble in recent days. Mr. Levitt has published a new book called "Take on the Street: What Wall Street and Corporate America Don't What you Know." He joins in the CROSSFIRE from West Palm Beach, Florida.

Mr. Levitt.

BEGALA: r. Levitt, thank you very much. First, thank you for your service to our country -- probably the best Securities and Exchange Commission chairman we ever had. None other than Warren Buffett says so on the back cover of your book.

And it's a terrific book. I want to read a quick excerpt from it, though, and get to you to comment on it -- about some of the work that you did trying to prevent the Enron-Andersen type disasters from happening. Here's what you write on page 143: "When you add it all up, the Enron-Anderson audit failure is a perfect example of what I was trying to prevent. Investors lost more than $60 billion. Some 5,000 Enron employees lost their jobs and many also lost their retirement savings because their 401(k) plans had been mostly worthless. Enron executives, meanwhile, made $1.2 billion by cashing in stock options ion the two years prior to the company's collapse."

What could you and the government have done to prevent that and why didn't we?

ARTHUR LEVITT, FMR. CHMN., SECURITIES & EXCHANGE COMMISSION: Probably not much.

What we went through was nothing less than a two-decade long erosion of ethical values on the part of corporate America. And all the gatekeepers were out to lunch. The standard setters, the accountants, the boards, the rating agencies, the lawyers. Everybody didn't do their job. And it was very little that could have been done to prevent this.

I think we had a Congress that was intent on doing what corporate America wanted it to do and what they wanted it to do was to keep a deregulatory regimen and prevent almost any pro-investor initiative from taking hold.

BEGALA: In fact, you're being too modest. I saw you blowing the whistle on this very practice of auditors and accountants working for the same company at the same time and you did try to prevent that. And I want you to tell our audience what happened when you tried to put in place a reform that would have prevented this debacle.

LEVITT: We met with the heads of the large firms -- the big five firms. And we said, You've got to quit split auditing and consulting. The head of Arthur Andersen stood up and said, Arthur, if you go down this road, it's war. And it was war, they hired seven or eight lobbying firms. They spent their time on Capitol hill. Every day that went by, a Senator or Congressman would call me up and said, Arthur, if you go down this road, we're going to cut your funding. You will regret it.

And it was a nightmarish 90 days. We got down to the wire. And I got a call from Phil Gramm who said, I won't let them do this to you, but they are thinking of cutting your funding. I asked Larry Summers to talk to the president. He got back to me and said, if they try to cut your funding, the president will veto that bill.

Nevertheless, we had to settle for half a loaf, for disclosure rather than the split between auditing and consulting. And nobody less than Ken Lay wrote me a letter, which I've reproduced in the book, that said, Arthur, Arthur Andersen is terribly important to us, please don't cause them to split auditing and consulting. We need their services. you bet they did.

NOVAK: Now, Mr. Levitt, In your very interesting book I was struck by something that happened -- came up very early on page 7. I would like to read it to you. We talk about your tremendous career and all you've done. And You say "I'd like to think my Wall Street and Washington experience recommended me. But I suppose the $750,000 I raised as one of the 22 co-chairmen of the New Your dinner for Clinton just before the 1992 nominating convention was not lost on the new president's inner circle." That's a little bit of understatement. Isn't it the truth you couldn't have gotten the time of day if you hadn't raised money for the president?

LEVITT: You know, I'm not sure about that. I think the way those nominations are made, somebody is up for a nomination. I have a feeling it was somebody other than me. For whatever reason, they didn't get it. So everyone rushes around, he the White House and says, who is there? Clearly, my support in raising money for the president probably was one factor. But after all, I had a life's experience on Wall Street, running a brokerage firm, running a stock exchange. It probably was natural that the president turned to me. But in the eight years I was there, not once did the Clinton White House call to interfere with any policy or any appointment, for that matter.

NOVAK: Mr. Levitt, I'd like to cite some criticism of you, not from a big businessman, not from a conservative Republican but from professor at the University of North Colorado giving a speech.

Who says "Even though he," meaning Arthur Levitt, "has talked a lot about reforming market structure. When push came to shove, he didn't do it."

There is some truth to that, isn't there?

LEVITT: I don't think there is much truth to that. Market structure is a tough issue. We spent more time on it than probably any other commission. Our goal was to see to it that competition among the markets was both fierce and fair. In doing that, we approved the first new stock exchange in 25 years. And it's an enormously successful one.

Peake had his own view of what the market should be. He believed in something called the central limit audit book or a club. We discussed that issue and it didn't fly. But we brought about changes in the market and we brought actions against every major stock exchange in America on behalf of individual investors. Our markets are more liquid and stronger today than any time in history. I don't think that's a failure.

BEGALA: Absolutely. Let me -- because I do admire you so much, I want to turn to someone else to ask you this next question. I recently was pitching my own stupid little book and I went on LOU DOBB'S MONEYLINE.

Now, Lou Dobbs, is the smartest and toughest and most fair business reporter I know. He asked me a very tough question involving you. I'll play you, if you listen to this tape, I'll play the tape of Lou asking me that question, then cut it off and let you respond to Lou Dobbs, so take a listen please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Well, rebuffed by Republicans but your president, you as a Clintonista, you know very well that the president had the power of the Bully Pulpit. He had the compacity of with Arthur Levitt. Hardly, if you will, a green horn in the big city of Washington, D.C. To drive forward with the full 7-0 vote of the FASB to expense stock options. He was resisted by a number of business lobby, not question, but you make it sound like he fold up like a tulip in a strong breeze.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: We only have a brief amount of time, but you didn't fold at all, did you?

LEVITT: I backed away from that issue, and that was a mistake. It's not the president's issue. He shouldn't be involved in accounting standards, that's my issue. And FASB wanted to go ahead and expense stock options. Joe Lieberman called for a sense of the Senate vote, which came out overwhelmingly in favor of overruling FASB. I shouldn't have backed down because I doubt Congress would have gotten involved. I made miscalculation. It was the worst mistake I made in office.

NOVAK: We admire you candor, thank you very much, Arthur Levitt.

It may be November, but some of our Canadian viewers are still hot! We'll let them fire back at us in a little bit.

But next, who's telling the truth about Islam?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Ever since the September 11 attacks, President Bush has gone out of his way to explain America is at war with terrorists who happen to be Muslim, and not with everyone who practices Islam. But the "Washington Times" is quoting religious broadcaster Pat Robertson as saying the president, was, quote, "Not elected as chief theologian," on quote. Pat Robertson isn't the only religious leader thinks politicians and the news media should be asking if it is an evil religion. Joining us from Fort Worth, Texas, Reverend James Robison, president and founder of Life Outreach International, and host of the TV program "Life Today." His latest book which came out last month is called "The Absolutes."

BEGALA: Thank you for joining us particularly on Thanksgiving week, I really am grateful. I am in an unusual position, probably count on one hand the number of times I defend President George W. Bush. As a Democrat he is not my cup of tea generally but I think he was absolutely right when he made this statement. Let me play it and ask you to listen to it and comment on it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Now, Reverend Pat Robertson says he's wrong. I agree with George W. Bush. Who do you agree with?

REV. JAMES ROBISON, HOST, "LIFE TODAY": Well, I agree with the president, but I don't think that Pat Robertson is trying to cast any negative reflection on the president's desire for peace, and to have a positive feeling about all people of faith.

I do believe, however, that there are many in the Islamic faith who are using, to justify their own deadly actions, some of the Koran and some of the teachings of Mohammed, and it is my personal conviction that every Islamic leader, every person who professes to believe in the faith of Islam, should stand up and speak out as forcefully, as vocally as we would in the Christian community, if a white supremacist or a member of the Ku Klux Klan attacked some innocent person, and then tried to use the Bible to justify their horrible, deadly actions.

I believe it's time for the Islamic world to stand up and really speak out against it.

NOVAK: Reverend Robison, I agree with every word you just said, but that is not what Pat Robertson said. Pat Robertson said there is something inherently violent in the faith of Islam. He said that it is a matter of them attacking Christians and Jews. He says they want to eliminate Jews. Do you agree with that? I'm not talking about some extremists, or some terrorists, but he thinks the religion itself is at fault.

ROBISON: Well, Mohammed, one of the last statements he made is, "Perish all Jews, perish all Christians, let no two faiths be found in all of Arabia."

Now, if that, in fact, was the true spirit of Islam, then there is a serious problem. There are those who study Islam who believe that is a potential direction of Islam, world dominance and control, imposing their belief system on others, and that gives me deep concern.

So I think Pat is saying, Let's look at what the Koran teaches, let's see if, in fact, the Islamic world is in the process of declaring war on the rest of the world, hopefully that is not the case.

Our president is being diplomatic. He is a man who loves peace, who loves people, regardless of their faith or their race or their nation. He is a man who wants peace. I believe that's what Pat Robertson wants. What he is asking us to do is find out if, in fact, there is justification in the Koran for such action.

And if there is, then we need to take a hard look at it. If in fact it's not there, then let's expose it, and then let's get the Islamic mullahs and representatives to stand up, and every representative in the Arab world to stand up renounce those actions. And it is really, quite frankly, high time they do it.

BEGALA: Let me give you a chance as a Christian leader, Reverend Robison, to denounce some rather extremist statements from some of your brother Christians. Reverend Jerry Falwell and Reverend Pat Robertson, who we have been talking about, had the following exchange on the "700 Club" just two days after the September 11 attacks. On September 13, Reverend Falwell said, "What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be minuscule if, in fact -- if, in fact, God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

Reverend Robertson says, "Jerry, that is my feeling. I think we have just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population."

Do you believe that we probably deserve the attacks of September 11, sir?

ROBISON: I think we became vulnerable because we have left the standards that have made us strong, and I think both Pat and Jerry Falwell apologized for ill timing that statement, and perhaps for, in some way, misrepresenting exactly their own personal deep feelings. I do believe...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBISON: ... America becomes vulnerable if we leave God's standards.

BEGALA: You believe that moral standards in America convinced a few crazies to blow up our buildings? I just want to make sure I get you straight on the record here. ROBISON: No. I believe that our departure from moral standards and from an honest foundation that builds stability and security makes us vulnerable.

We have lack of communication between certain intelligence agencies. We've already proven that. We have people more interested in protecting bureaucratic turf than they are in protecting the American people. When that is the case, then we need to have a heart change. We need to have a directional change in our nation. America does have room for some adjustment, spiritually and morally, no question about it. But to give God credit in any way for the attack would be a mistake, or to give America credit for it would be a mistake. It was a horrible act of violence against innocent people.

BEGALA: On that, we agree. Reverend James Robison, joining us from Fort Worth, Texas. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us, sir.

Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, a fellow Texan of mine agrees with me about "W," but disagrees with me about those Texas Aggies I have been banging on. A Thanksgiving rivalry comes to "Fireback," next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It is time now for "Fireback." Let's get right to it. You have really been firing back. We're overwhelmed with mail.

Yolanda Jurado in Edinburg, Texas, where I like to go hunt deer, it is a beautiful town. "Dear Paul, as a Texan, I applaud your chutzpah for calling Rush Limbaugh a fat blowhard. By the way, not all Aggies are stupid; my daughter is a liberal Democrat in Aggieland and proud of it."

Proud to be corrected by Yolanda, thank you for that e-mail, but go Texas on Friday, beat A&M.

NOVAK: Not all Aggies are as good as the ones I served in the Army with, unfortunately. We got -- after talking about Canada last night, we got thousands of e-mails from Canada, and here's my favorite from a good non-weenie Canadian, Lisa, of Calgary.

"Thank you, CROSSFIRE. Today, after yesterday's coverage of Prime Minister Chretien and his staff's obnoxious behavior, the offensively moronic Francoise Ducros is now gone. God bless America's CROSSFIRE."

God bless you.

BEGALA: That is power. Novak has power. He drove that poor woman out of her job.

Yes sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andy Anonus from Boothland (ph), Pennsylvania, a freshman at G.W. How do you think this 2004 ticket will do against Bush? Begala for president, Streisand for vice president, Sharpton for Homeland Security and James Carville, Secretary of State?

NOVAK: I think that represents the soul of the Democratic Party. I pray that that would be the ticket.

BEGALA: I tell you what, it would be worth it just to watch the debates, wouldn't it? Barbra Streisand -- George W. Bush is not -- Dick Cheney is not half the woman Barbra Streisand is. She would kick his butt in that debate.

Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Cyril (ph) from Fairland, New Jersey, and I was just wondering -- I'm 22 years old and a college student with an empty wallet. Why should I pay Social Security taxes, if I'm not going to get anything back if it's not privatized?

NOVAK: Well -- I think. Go ahead, answer the question.

BEGALA: First off, if it is privatized, they're going to cut your benefits. Second off, if it is privatized, they have to steal a trillion dollars from your grandma, who I suspect you don't want to have to eat dog food, and that's what Bush's plan is: make grandma eat dog food.

NOVAK: That's garbage, propaganda, and he knows -- he knows more about it than you do and he is only 22 years old.

BEGALA: Brought to you by Alpo, the Bush Social Security plan. From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time, for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 26, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: look out Washington. Here comes the new Republican Congress with a new social and political agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'll work with Democrats and Republicans in the next Congress to pass a growth and jobs package early next year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Do the Republicans have the right stuff?

If Congress and Wall Street had followed his advice, your 401(k) might be feeling more thankful this Thanksgiving. What's on his menu now?

And Pat Robertson wishes President Bush had never said...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Islam is peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Can Islam be peaceful, or is it a religion of the sword? And, what if it's both?

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, the Republican's Trojan horse arrives on Capitol Hill. It looks to me like a lot like Jerry Falwell's social agenda and Enron's economic policy. Also, the evil empire. According to some right wing preachers, it's actually Islam. But first, the moment I know you've all been praying for, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

President Bush had a busy day today. First he signed into law a bill that puts you on the hook for up to $262 billion in the form of a potential taxpayer bailout in the insurance industry. Now, big insurance lost a pile on 9/11 and in the stock market, but they somehow managed to scrape together several million dollars to contribute to Mr. Bush and the GOP.

President Bush, in turn, tapped already strapped taxpayers to bail out big insurance. Ain't free enterprise great?

Speaking of turkeys, President Bush pardoned Katie, a turkey. She will live out her life on a farm in Virginia instead of becoming somebody's Thanksgiving Day feast. Bush seemed a little awkward, and maybe even a little scared of the big bird, when I watched the tape. But White House aides say Mr. Bush was not in fact afraid to touch the turkey, he was just keeping with his long-standing policy of not shaking hands with anyone until they gave him a large corporate donation.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: You know what, Paul, they had to pass this terrorism insurance bill in order to have some building going on in the big hotels across the country, and those are jobs, jobs, jobs. And as far as the president going through with this silly annual requirement that your president had to go through of pardoning the turkey, he just did he fine. When you attack George Bush at every corner, it makes you look like a turkey.

BEGALA: They don't need to bail out big insurance. I thought you didn't like government getting around in big business and getting in the way of business? Why do we bail them out? We don't bail out a working stiff who lost his job through no fault of his own and can't pay off his own health insurance. Why don't we bail them out?

NOVAK: The working stiffs -- of course all the Democrats voted for this bill -- the working stiffs are going to get jobs because of it.

Francois Ducros, the senior Canadian official who became an American household word by calling George W. Bush a moron finally was sacked today. Ducros, who was Prime Minister Jean Chretien's communications director, was overheard at the NATO summit in Prague last week saying of President Bush, "What a moron." Canadian opposition leaders demanded her resignation, but Prime Minister Chretien is a stubborn man and figured the storm would subside over last weekend.

It didn't. CTV reports that Chretien's advisers watched us hash the issue over again on CROSSFIRE last night and decided she had to go. What a government. What a country.

BEGALA: What a show. I'm sorry I wasn't here to participate in that, but that's a lot of power you guys have. But fundamentally, come on. I mean, President Bush, when he was Governor Bush in the campaign, confused the prime minister of Canada with a plate of cheese fries.

They call them -- it's called puton (ph), it's one of their snacks up there. And they asked him how he felt about Prime Minister Puton (ph) endorsing him for president. The guy was so ignorant -- I don't think he's a moron, but he is massively ignorant -- and he thought that a plate of cheese fries was the Canadian prime minister. What do you think they should think about him? NOVAK: Well, the point of the matter is, that if Joe Lockhart had called the prime minister of Canada a moron, he would have been out like that. You know it.

BEGALA: What other outrageous thing did she say? I think she said Shaquille O'Neill was tall. Well, OK. There are a few obvious things we can state for the record.

Today's "New York Times"-CBS poll, though, shows that while most Americans like George W. Bush, they don't much like his Republican policies. Only 37 percent of Americans support making Mr. Bush's tax cut for the rich permanent. Just 23 percent think the tax cuts were a good idea at all. And a whopping 73 percent say they have done no good or maybe even damaged the economy.

Moreover, nearly 60 percent say that the Bush tax cuts do in fact benefit the wealthy. Meanwhile, Americans overwhelmingly oppose the Bush plan to drill for oil in the Arctic wilderness. And while Bush is relaxing clean air standards, 62 percent of Americans want more government regulation of the environment, not less. Clearly, the American people are responding to this hot new best seller, "It's Still the Economy, Stupid," which in addition to making the case for new economic polices, also makes a great stock stuffer for the holidays.

NOVAK: That's your book.

BEGALA: And it's a fine book. Didn't you enjoy it?

NOVAK: It's one of the most wonderful left wing pieces I've ever read. You know, Paul, I'll tell you something. You Democrats keep coming out against tax cuts, for government regulation, and we'll have more election results like we had on November 5. I guarantee it.

Al and Tipper Gore are on the second week of their book tour blitz. But their book, "Joined at the Heart," isn't doing any better at sales than Al is doing in political polls. The book is ranked number 447 nationally in Barnes and Noble sales. But that's pretty good compared to Amazon.com's number 1,693.

The companion photo book, "The Spirit of the Family," is selling just as poorly. Now don't cry for the Gores. Cry for the publishers. Henry Holding (ph) Company, who gave the Gores a seven-figure advance.

Oh, the "New York Times" best seller list lists the book at number 21. How is that possible? Well, you know the "New York Times," don't you, Paul?

BEGALA: Well, that's the most reputable of the list. But I think what's remarkable about the book is that Al and Tipper Gore didn't write just about themselves and how great they are. They actually wrote about other people, which is very rare for politicians.

I think it's terrific. And, you know what's going to sell a lot of books for him? Al Gore is going to come on CROSSFIRE. He's going to face Novak, and he's going to best you. NOVAK: Hold your breath, baby.

BEGALA: Well, the Bush administration has a plan to dramatically expand the government's ability to spy on us. Part of that effort, the Information Awareness Office is located in the Pentagon. Now, the agency's logo about the creepiest thing you've ever seen and its Latin motto means knowledge is power.

Critics fear Orwellian big brother snooping at its worst. So who has George W. Bush chosen to entrust with this awesome power? None other than John Poindexter, the disgraced Iran-Contra figure who was convicted of five felony counts of lying to Congress and other related crimes during the Reagan administration.

His conviction was overturned on a technicality, but that has hardly satisfied critics. Let me defend him. Sure Poindexter is a convicted felon and liar, but it's important to note he was only lying about national security, not something important like sex.

NOVAK: You know, Admiral Poindexter -- I don't think you understand how the American justice system works. Admiral Poindexter was railroaded by an overzealous special independent counsel who was attacking all the Republican appointees. He was cleared and he's a great patriot.

The winner of the first weekly democrats.com presidential straw vote is Al Gore with 365 votes, followed by John Kerry with 159. That's no surprise. The surprise is who ranks 12th with 57 votes. Our own Paul Begala. Begala for president.

He's tied with Jimmy Carter. He's got more votes than Tom Daschle, more than Dick Gephardt, more than Joe Lieberman, more than the Reverend Al Sharpton. What a good idea. I may shift from Sharpton to Begala as my democratic choice for '04. Absolutely nobody reflects narrow-minded vicious liberalism better than my colleague, Paul. So let's hear it for Begala in '04.

BEGALA: Thank you, Bob. That's a -- that's democrats.com? I only have 57 votes. I want everybody to come and vote for me, push me up past Gore, and then we'll see how I do. OK?

NOVAK: In a minute, we'll look ahead to the real agenda of the new Republican Congress and not just the cartoon version being put out by James Carville and his nefarious friends. Later, a prominent Christian preacher takes a swipe at Islam and he isn't alone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Republicans are riding high in the wake of this month's election, and for good reason. They have a 64 percent approval rating in the new CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll. It's considerably lower, about 51 percent, in "The New York Times"-CBS poll, but that is still six points better than my fellow Democrats have.

But if you read a little deeper, both polls show that the public has doubts about the president's agenda, with Americans expressing concerns about everything from President Bush's tax cuts to his environmental policies to his judges. So the question is, do Republicans really have the right stuff for the voters?

Stepping into the CROSSFIRE, Democratic strategist and former Congressman and former Gore campaign Chairman, Tony Coelho. And Republican Bob Walker, a former Congressman from Pennsylvania.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Tony Coelho...

TONY COELHO, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: Can I say something first? I'm happy to be with president Begala. I want to be your campaign chairman.

NOVAK: Do you think you'll do as good a job as you did for Gore?

COELHO: Yes.

NOVAK: Mr. Coelho, one of the issues that the Democratic propagandists say just is the third rail of politics, you talk about it in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is Social Security. All the Republican candidates who talked about the Social Security reform of private investment did very well. And we just took a little poll out here.

Every time I take a poll with people under 40 we always get a majority that say they'd like to invest it. But forget this. Take a look at the CNN-TIME poll. Investing Social Security in market, favor 50 percent, oppose 43 percent. You're on a bad issue there, aren't you?

COELHO: Bring it on, baby. Bring it on. We'd love to debate it. Just bring it on, and let's see where the American people are after you bring it up in the House and the Senate and we'd love to have you pursue it.

NOVAK: How is it in the heat of a campaign -- I think you've got to think about this, Tony.

COELHO: I've thought a lot about it. I've thought about it since 1981.

NOVAK: I know, but you've got to have some new thoughts. John Sununu in New Hampshire, Norm Coleman in Minnesota, Elizabeth Dole in North Carolina, Lindsey Graham in South Carolina, they all campaigned very hard on this issue and they won. John Thune walked away from it in South Dakota and lost.

COELHO: Yes. And I'm sure all those campaigns are as simplistic as that, Bob. And they won and lost on that issue. And you've been pushing this issue forever, and I hope you prevail, because I would love to have George Bush and the Republicans in the House and Senate come out for it. We'd love to take this issue on.

BEGALA: I think one of the reasons, Bob, that Tony is so strong on this, as am I and most Democrats, is that it requires and extraordinary amount of trust to say, let's hand over to President Bush and to corporate America part of our Social Security. And...

BOB WALKER, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: What? No one is talking about doing that.

BEGALA: Of course President Bush has proposed totally privatizing Social Security.

WALKER: He hasn't done that either.

BEGALA: On May 17 of 2000, sir, he told the "Houston Chronicle's" R.G. Radcliff (ph) that his proposal to partially privatize it was only the first step in a long process to totally privatize Social Security.

WALKER: But the fact is that what we've been talking about is allowing people to invest some of their own money in an account which is for them. Now, you know I don't think that's such an outrageous idea.

Even when I was a young kid, my mother told me that saving some money toward the future was a good thing. We want to make certain that people have that opportunity to do savings. But it's optional for them. They don't have to participate in the program under what's being proposed.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Let me show you the poll that "The New York Times" and CBS released today. Our president has a 65 percent approval rating in handling his job in general. Very good, very impressive. When you ask them about handling the economy, it collapses down to 45 percent. The base Republican vote. Doesn't that suggest that Americans don't trust Bush to run the economy except partisan Republicans?

WALKER: No, I don't think it suggests that at all. I think what it suggests is that people are concerned about the economy but they trust President Bush's leadership.

NOVAK: What's the negative vote, Paul?

BEGALA: It's the same, 45. So it's not exactly an endorsement of President Bush's...

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: But the fact is...

BEGALA: ... he's got a 65 percent overall and 45 percent differential.

WALKER: ... the fact is that people are reflecting reality. That the economy is not what they wish it to be. But the fact...

BEGALA: Nor are Bush's policies, right? WALKER: No, I don't think that's true at all. I think the American people just decided in election on Bush's policy. And the fact is that he's going to move forward trying to get some growth into this economy.

You cannot move forward unless this economy is growing. You can't have a growing economy if what you do is tax it to death and regulate it to death. And the president has a very firm agenda toward having growth that will produce jobs and work and a better future for everyone. So that's real.

NOVAK: Tony Coelho, you have a reputation -- I hope it's deserved -- as a very shrewd politician. Don't you think it is time that the Democrats...

COELHO: You've got to be careful when he starts that way.

NOVAK: ... stop banging their heads against the wall on this tax cut issue? Poor Fritz Mondale lost in 1984. They brought him back how many years later? Twenty-eight years later. People don't like tax increases.

It killed the candidate for governor of Florida. It has killed all your candidates. Isn't it time for you to understand that, when you say we're not going to give the rich a tax cut, people know that if you don't give the rich a tax cut, they're not going to give anybody a tax cut?

COELHO: You haven't changed that speech in years that I've known you. But I think that the issue here is, what are you going to do with the money that people give to the government to spend on programs that are supposed to help them out? What they've decided -- if you look at that same poll, they basically are concerned about the fact that that money is being spent not to reduce the deficit, not to reduce the debt, not to take care of health care, not to take care of the programs that they want. And that's why the poll numbers on there are saying to the Republicans that you better watch out what you're doing.

I happen to think...

NOVAK: I think I'm in the twilight zone here.

COELHO: You always have been, but that's all right.

NOVAK: On November 5, the Republicans won and...

COELHO: I agree totally. And I want you to go ahead.

NOVAK: Let me ask the question. Didn't you get murdered on this tax issue in state after state after state? In fact, most of your candidates were afraid to come out against the Bush tax cuts.

COELHO: No, I don't think that's what the election was all about at all. BEGALA: That's why they lost, because they didn't come out against the Bush tax cut. They supported the Bush tax cut and they lost. Let me show you again another question of "The New York Times"- CBS poll.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: But just one comment. Tony, the American people don't give the money to federal government, it's coerced from them.

COELHO: Oh, yeah. OK.

BEGALA: Bob, just a moment.

COELHO: We live in a dictatorship, right?

WALKER: Well, it's coerced from them by the government.

BEGALA: The CBS-"New York Times" poll asked people should we make the tax cut permanent. Forty-five yes, 44 no. But then they asked a sub-sample of that audience, should we make the Bush tax cuts permanent, adding, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the popular president's name and the support collapses to 37 yes, 52 no. A 16-point meltdown when you tell them it's Bush's tax cuts. Isn't that because they know the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is just for the rich?

WALKER: Well, obviously, Bush is not just for the rich. Bush is for the economy in a way that gives everybody a chance. Now, the fact is that if you don't make the tax cuts permanent at some point here you cannot get the kind of growth that the tax cut was designed to give you.

NOVAK: We're out of time. In a minute, we'll try to get the unspin doctor version of the Republican social agenda. Later, the man who watched the Internet bubble grow and got out before it blew up in the Bush administration's face.

And when Muslims say their prayers, are they really praying for peace? The Reverend Pat Robertson says no.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. When Congress changes hands in January, a number of social issues will be coming out of the Democratic deep freeze and going on to the Republican front burner. Despite the yelling by certain Democrats, it won't be the end of the world. In fact, the world may get a little better.

In the CROSSFIRE are Democratic strategist, former California Congressman Tony Coelho and Republican Bob Walker, former Congressman from Pennsylvania.

BEGALA: Before we get to those social issues, let me finish one more economic issue we didn't have time for in our last, and that is the bill the president signed today. The so-called terrorism insurance bill, which is an enormous bailout for big insurance companies and not a dime for citizens' families who have lost their health coverage through no fault of their own.

So we called the people at Families USA. It's a group that tries to increase health care coverage.

WALKER: It is a Democratic group.

BEGALA: No it's not.

NOVAK: It is a Democratic group. Come on! Give me a break.

BEGALA: Only Democrats of course do believe in trying to insure everybody so, in that sense, they're a little bit Democratic.

NOVAK: Is this Pollack's (ph) group?

BEGALA: Yes.

NOVAK: It's a Democratic group.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: It doesn't mean they're wrong. Here's what they said. Basically for the price of this bill, $100 billion alone could cover all the uninsured children in this country. With the $200 billion left over, we could cover their parents. That's roughly the cost of what we're giving big insurance companies for nothing. Why do we bail out big insurance companies and billionaire developers and not families who need health care?

WALKER: The fact is, what you're doing is providing a guarantee on terrorism and so on. And the fact is that nobody...

BEGALA: Why not do that for health care?

WALKER: Nobody wants to bet a company anymore. Most of these companies are -- have the workers' pension plans in them. Now do you want every time that there is a terrorism incident to knock out the pension plans of most workers who are invested in the stock market, including insurance companies? That's where the money is. And the fact is that you can provide some assurance to those companies that terrorism will not be used as a way of destroying the economic fiber of this country.

BEGALA: Help me understand what it is in Republican theology that makes it good to bail out multi-billion-dollar insurance companies but bad to bail out struggling families? If you're for bail outs, my goodness, I'm for bail outs. But I'd rather start with the little guy.

WALKER: It's not a bailout at all.

BEGALA: Of course it is.

WALKER: What it is, is an attempt to say if terrorism strikes this country, we do not allow our companies to go under and thereby bring down the stock market and bring down people's pension plans. It is a protection of families from that standpoint.

NOVAK: All right. Tony Coelho, there has been something interesting going on there. A lot of journalists and politicians are saying that the Republicans campaign on economic issues. There is a debate (UNINTELLIGIBLE) they're going to social issues. And these are very unpopular issues.

Now of course they campaign on social issues as well as economic issues. But I want to just show you what the public sentiment is on a couple of these social issues. Abortion laws should be more strict or less strict? More strict, 47 percent, less strict 12 percent.

How about this one? Cloning designed to result in the birth of a new human being. Approved nine percent, disapproved 88 percent. We can go down the line. The people are socially conservative, are they not?

COELHO: Well does this mean -- are you telling me that this is what the agenda of the Republican Party is going to be come January and February? Is that what you are saying?

NOVAK: I ask the questions and you answer them.

COELHO: You imply that that's what they were going to do. Is this going to be the agenda?

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I hope it is. I hope it's part of it. What's wrong with that?

COELHO: Well, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I would love to have a debate on this. I think there are a lot of women across this country who want to make sure that they have some choices, and that you White males, you old White males like me, don't make all the decisions. And I think that one of the things we need to be concerned about are what other people think, not just what you and I think.

NOVAK: Let me ask you this. Do you think the American people are for -- just a minute. Let me ask the question before you answer it. For partial birth abortion and for teenage promiscuity? Answer the question.

COELHO: Let me tell you what, Bob. I am not for abortion. But I'll tell you what, I don't think I should tell women that they are or are not. I think women should have choice.

NOVAK: What about partial-birth abortion?

COELHO: That's what this debate is all about, is choice. Whether or not you White males, old White males make the decisions for them or do women make...

NOVAK: So you're for permitting this barbarous technique that Pat Moynahan said is the next thing to genocide? COELHO: No, I am not. I think the issue is who makes the decision. That's your problem.

BEGALA: Let me ask you, Mr. Walker, about another divisive social history. Now you were -- we were talking about this in the break -- highly respected on both sides of the aisle as one of the leaders in the science and technology committee on Capitol Hill. As such, you must have been troubled by the report in today's "New York Times" that Secretary of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, is imposing a right wing political correctness on the scientists at the Centers for Disease Control, telling them what public health information they can put out about things like condoms and other touchy sexual issues that are no longer driven by what scientists and doctors think are best, but they're going to be driven by what right wing politicians in Washington think is best. You must think that is wrong, don't you?

WALKER: Well, I think that Tommy Thompson has looked at this very, very carefully and determined that there are some things that the federal government ought not be in the process of advocating. You know the problem is that the federal government does two roles here and so on. It's not just the dissemination of information.

It actually gets in the business of advocacy. And I think what Tommy Thompson is saying is that, regardless of what the title might be, that the federal government just ought not to be in the business of advocacy in those areas. And there are plenty of other people out there in society to advocate. We don't need the federal government doing it.

BEGALA: Well, that will have to be the last word. Bob Walker, former Congressman from Pennsylvania, thank you very much for joining us. Tony Coelho, former Congressman from California. Both two of the smartest guys on this team. Thank you for taking time on a holiday week. Excellent debate.

Coming up in a CNN NEWS ALERT, Connie Chung will have more details about an emergency government order that involves the airplanes you may be flying on this holiday week.

Then a man that Republicans in Congress should have listened to back when he was in power. You would probably be a whole lot wealthier if they had.

And we'll ask why the Reverend Pat Robertson seems so intent on restarting the crusades. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

BEGALA: Coming up, a man who spent most of the '90s trying to get big business to clean up its act and had to fight the GOP every step of the way. Well, what's his advice now? Stay tuned and you'll get it.

Also, as we enter the season of peace and goodwill, why are some right wing creatures preaching hate?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

During the Clinton administration, Arthur Levitt was chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, an agency that's been in the news and in trouble in recent days. Mr. Levitt has published a new book called "Take on the Street: What Wall Street and Corporate America Don't What you Know." He joins in the CROSSFIRE from West Palm Beach, Florida.

Mr. Levitt.

BEGALA: r. Levitt, thank you very much. First, thank you for your service to our country -- probably the best Securities and Exchange Commission chairman we ever had. None other than Warren Buffett says so on the back cover of your book.

And it's a terrific book. I want to read a quick excerpt from it, though, and get to you to comment on it -- about some of the work that you did trying to prevent the Enron-Andersen type disasters from happening. Here's what you write on page 143: "When you add it all up, the Enron-Anderson audit failure is a perfect example of what I was trying to prevent. Investors lost more than $60 billion. Some 5,000 Enron employees lost their jobs and many also lost their retirement savings because their 401(k) plans had been mostly worthless. Enron executives, meanwhile, made $1.2 billion by cashing in stock options ion the two years prior to the company's collapse."

What could you and the government have done to prevent that and why didn't we?

ARTHUR LEVITT, FMR. CHMN., SECURITIES & EXCHANGE COMMISSION: Probably not much.

What we went through was nothing less than a two-decade long erosion of ethical values on the part of corporate America. And all the gatekeepers were out to lunch. The standard setters, the accountants, the boards, the rating agencies, the lawyers. Everybody didn't do their job. And it was very little that could have been done to prevent this.

I think we had a Congress that was intent on doing what corporate America wanted it to do and what they wanted it to do was to keep a deregulatory regimen and prevent almost any pro-investor initiative from taking hold.

BEGALA: In fact, you're being too modest. I saw you blowing the whistle on this very practice of auditors and accountants working for the same company at the same time and you did try to prevent that. And I want you to tell our audience what happened when you tried to put in place a reform that would have prevented this debacle.

LEVITT: We met with the heads of the large firms -- the big five firms. And we said, You've got to quit split auditing and consulting. The head of Arthur Andersen stood up and said, Arthur, if you go down this road, it's war. And it was war, they hired seven or eight lobbying firms. They spent their time on Capitol hill. Every day that went by, a Senator or Congressman would call me up and said, Arthur, if you go down this road, we're going to cut your funding. You will regret it.

And it was a nightmarish 90 days. We got down to the wire. And I got a call from Phil Gramm who said, I won't let them do this to you, but they are thinking of cutting your funding. I asked Larry Summers to talk to the president. He got back to me and said, if they try to cut your funding, the president will veto that bill.

Nevertheless, we had to settle for half a loaf, for disclosure rather than the split between auditing and consulting. And nobody less than Ken Lay wrote me a letter, which I've reproduced in the book, that said, Arthur, Arthur Andersen is terribly important to us, please don't cause them to split auditing and consulting. We need their services. you bet they did.

NOVAK: Now, Mr. Levitt, In your very interesting book I was struck by something that happened -- came up very early on page 7. I would like to read it to you. We talk about your tremendous career and all you've done. And You say "I'd like to think my Wall Street and Washington experience recommended me. But I suppose the $750,000 I raised as one of the 22 co-chairmen of the New Your dinner for Clinton just before the 1992 nominating convention was not lost on the new president's inner circle." That's a little bit of understatement. Isn't it the truth you couldn't have gotten the time of day if you hadn't raised money for the president?

LEVITT: You know, I'm not sure about that. I think the way those nominations are made, somebody is up for a nomination. I have a feeling it was somebody other than me. For whatever reason, they didn't get it. So everyone rushes around, he the White House and says, who is there? Clearly, my support in raising money for the president probably was one factor. But after all, I had a life's experience on Wall Street, running a brokerage firm, running a stock exchange. It probably was natural that the president turned to me. But in the eight years I was there, not once did the Clinton White House call to interfere with any policy or any appointment, for that matter.

NOVAK: Mr. Levitt, I'd like to cite some criticism of you, not from a big businessman, not from a conservative Republican but from professor at the University of North Colorado giving a speech.

Who says "Even though he," meaning Arthur Levitt, "has talked a lot about reforming market structure. When push came to shove, he didn't do it."

There is some truth to that, isn't there?

LEVITT: I don't think there is much truth to that. Market structure is a tough issue. We spent more time on it than probably any other commission. Our goal was to see to it that competition among the markets was both fierce and fair. In doing that, we approved the first new stock exchange in 25 years. And it's an enormously successful one.

Peake had his own view of what the market should be. He believed in something called the central limit audit book or a club. We discussed that issue and it didn't fly. But we brought about changes in the market and we brought actions against every major stock exchange in America on behalf of individual investors. Our markets are more liquid and stronger today than any time in history. I don't think that's a failure.

BEGALA: Absolutely. Let me -- because I do admire you so much, I want to turn to someone else to ask you this next question. I recently was pitching my own stupid little book and I went on LOU DOBB'S MONEYLINE.

Now, Lou Dobbs, is the smartest and toughest and most fair business reporter I know. He asked me a very tough question involving you. I'll play you, if you listen to this tape, I'll play the tape of Lou asking me that question, then cut it off and let you respond to Lou Dobbs, so take a listen please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Well, rebuffed by Republicans but your president, you as a Clintonista, you know very well that the president had the power of the Bully Pulpit. He had the compacity of with Arthur Levitt. Hardly, if you will, a green horn in the big city of Washington, D.C. To drive forward with the full 7-0 vote of the FASB to expense stock options. He was resisted by a number of business lobby, not question, but you make it sound like he fold up like a tulip in a strong breeze.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: We only have a brief amount of time, but you didn't fold at all, did you?

LEVITT: I backed away from that issue, and that was a mistake. It's not the president's issue. He shouldn't be involved in accounting standards, that's my issue. And FASB wanted to go ahead and expense stock options. Joe Lieberman called for a sense of the Senate vote, which came out overwhelmingly in favor of overruling FASB. I shouldn't have backed down because I doubt Congress would have gotten involved. I made miscalculation. It was the worst mistake I made in office.

NOVAK: We admire you candor, thank you very much, Arthur Levitt.

It may be November, but some of our Canadian viewers are still hot! We'll let them fire back at us in a little bit.

But next, who's telling the truth about Islam?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Ever since the September 11 attacks, President Bush has gone out of his way to explain America is at war with terrorists who happen to be Muslim, and not with everyone who practices Islam. But the "Washington Times" is quoting religious broadcaster Pat Robertson as saying the president, was, quote, "Not elected as chief theologian," on quote. Pat Robertson isn't the only religious leader thinks politicians and the news media should be asking if it is an evil religion. Joining us from Fort Worth, Texas, Reverend James Robison, president and founder of Life Outreach International, and host of the TV program "Life Today." His latest book which came out last month is called "The Absolutes."

BEGALA: Thank you for joining us particularly on Thanksgiving week, I really am grateful. I am in an unusual position, probably count on one hand the number of times I defend President George W. Bush. As a Democrat he is not my cup of tea generally but I think he was absolutely right when he made this statement. Let me play it and ask you to listen to it and comment on it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Now, Reverend Pat Robertson says he's wrong. I agree with George W. Bush. Who do you agree with?

REV. JAMES ROBISON, HOST, "LIFE TODAY": Well, I agree with the president, but I don't think that Pat Robertson is trying to cast any negative reflection on the president's desire for peace, and to have a positive feeling about all people of faith.

I do believe, however, that there are many in the Islamic faith who are using, to justify their own deadly actions, some of the Koran and some of the teachings of Mohammed, and it is my personal conviction that every Islamic leader, every person who professes to believe in the faith of Islam, should stand up and speak out as forcefully, as vocally as we would in the Christian community, if a white supremacist or a member of the Ku Klux Klan attacked some innocent person, and then tried to use the Bible to justify their horrible, deadly actions.

I believe it's time for the Islamic world to stand up and really speak out against it.

NOVAK: Reverend Robison, I agree with every word you just said, but that is not what Pat Robertson said. Pat Robertson said there is something inherently violent in the faith of Islam. He said that it is a matter of them attacking Christians and Jews. He says they want to eliminate Jews. Do you agree with that? I'm not talking about some extremists, or some terrorists, but he thinks the religion itself is at fault.

ROBISON: Well, Mohammed, one of the last statements he made is, "Perish all Jews, perish all Christians, let no two faiths be found in all of Arabia."

Now, if that, in fact, was the true spirit of Islam, then there is a serious problem. There are those who study Islam who believe that is a potential direction of Islam, world dominance and control, imposing their belief system on others, and that gives me deep concern.

So I think Pat is saying, Let's look at what the Koran teaches, let's see if, in fact, the Islamic world is in the process of declaring war on the rest of the world, hopefully that is not the case.

Our president is being diplomatic. He is a man who loves peace, who loves people, regardless of their faith or their race or their nation. He is a man who wants peace. I believe that's what Pat Robertson wants. What he is asking us to do is find out if, in fact, there is justification in the Koran for such action.

And if there is, then we need to take a hard look at it. If in fact it's not there, then let's expose it, and then let's get the Islamic mullahs and representatives to stand up, and every representative in the Arab world to stand up renounce those actions. And it is really, quite frankly, high time they do it.

BEGALA: Let me give you a chance as a Christian leader, Reverend Robison, to denounce some rather extremist statements from some of your brother Christians. Reverend Jerry Falwell and Reverend Pat Robertson, who we have been talking about, had the following exchange on the "700 Club" just two days after the September 11 attacks. On September 13, Reverend Falwell said, "What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be minuscule if, in fact -- if, in fact, God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

Reverend Robertson says, "Jerry, that is my feeling. I think we have just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population."

Do you believe that we probably deserve the attacks of September 11, sir?

ROBISON: I think we became vulnerable because we have left the standards that have made us strong, and I think both Pat and Jerry Falwell apologized for ill timing that statement, and perhaps for, in some way, misrepresenting exactly their own personal deep feelings. I do believe...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBISON: ... America becomes vulnerable if we leave God's standards.

BEGALA: You believe that moral standards in America convinced a few crazies to blow up our buildings? I just want to make sure I get you straight on the record here. ROBISON: No. I believe that our departure from moral standards and from an honest foundation that builds stability and security makes us vulnerable.

We have lack of communication between certain intelligence agencies. We've already proven that. We have people more interested in protecting bureaucratic turf than they are in protecting the American people. When that is the case, then we need to have a heart change. We need to have a directional change in our nation. America does have room for some adjustment, spiritually and morally, no question about it. But to give God credit in any way for the attack would be a mistake, or to give America credit for it would be a mistake. It was a horrible act of violence against innocent people.

BEGALA: On that, we agree. Reverend James Robison, joining us from Fort Worth, Texas. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us, sir.

Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, a fellow Texan of mine agrees with me about "W," but disagrees with me about those Texas Aggies I have been banging on. A Thanksgiving rivalry comes to "Fireback," next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It is time now for "Fireback." Let's get right to it. You have really been firing back. We're overwhelmed with mail.

Yolanda Jurado in Edinburg, Texas, where I like to go hunt deer, it is a beautiful town. "Dear Paul, as a Texan, I applaud your chutzpah for calling Rush Limbaugh a fat blowhard. By the way, not all Aggies are stupid; my daughter is a liberal Democrat in Aggieland and proud of it."

Proud to be corrected by Yolanda, thank you for that e-mail, but go Texas on Friday, beat A&M.

NOVAK: Not all Aggies are as good as the ones I served in the Army with, unfortunately. We got -- after talking about Canada last night, we got thousands of e-mails from Canada, and here's my favorite from a good non-weenie Canadian, Lisa, of Calgary.

"Thank you, CROSSFIRE. Today, after yesterday's coverage of Prime Minister Chretien and his staff's obnoxious behavior, the offensively moronic Francoise Ducros is now gone. God bless America's CROSSFIRE."

God bless you.

BEGALA: That is power. Novak has power. He drove that poor woman out of her job.

Yes sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andy Anonus from Boothland (ph), Pennsylvania, a freshman at G.W. How do you think this 2004 ticket will do against Bush? Begala for president, Streisand for vice president, Sharpton for Homeland Security and James Carville, Secretary of State?

NOVAK: I think that represents the soul of the Democratic Party. I pray that that would be the ticket.

BEGALA: I tell you what, it would be worth it just to watch the debates, wouldn't it? Barbra Streisand -- George W. Bush is not -- Dick Cheney is not half the woman Barbra Streisand is. She would kick his butt in that debate.

Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Cyril (ph) from Fairland, New Jersey, and I was just wondering -- I'm 22 years old and a college student with an empty wallet. Why should I pay Social Security taxes, if I'm not going to get anything back if it's not privatized?

NOVAK: Well -- I think. Go ahead, answer the question.

BEGALA: First off, if it is privatized, they're going to cut your benefits. Second off, if it is privatized, they have to steal a trillion dollars from your grandma, who I suspect you don't want to have to eat dog food, and that's what Bush's plan is: make grandma eat dog food.

NOVAK: That's garbage, propaganda, and he knows -- he knows more about it than you do and he is only 22 years old.

BEGALA: Brought to you by Alpo, the Bush Social Security plan. From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night from CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time, for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

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