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CNN Crossfire

Highlights From Past Shows

Aired November 29, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala/ On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, when he was a kid was the country really freer? The always outspoken G. Gordon Liddy freely tells us what's changed.

He's dropped more than 60 pounds thank to surgery on his stomach.

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: Because your stomach is so smaller you feel full much more quickly so you don't eat nearly as much.

ANNOUNCER: we'll talk to the incredible shrinking congressman.

Do not attempt this at home, even if you're the King of Pop. Perhaps it's time to pop the question is Jacko whacko?

Is he worth singing about? We'll ask Steve Earle what he was thinking when he wrote a song sympathetic to Taliban American John Walker Lindh.

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. An unusually good show tonight. A musician who's trying immortalize John Walker Lindh in song. Who will you end up feeling sorry for?

And speaking of singers who maybe losing touch with reality, Michael Jackson. We'll debate the gloved one's public meltdown with the one man in America willing to defend him.

But first, political terms expire, old soldiers fade away, but Watergate conspirators just keep going and going and going. At least one does. G. Gordon Liddy whose radio talk show is a fixture of life here in Washington and beyond. He just published a new memoir, "When I Was A Kid, This Was A Free Country." Please welcome G. Gordon Liddy. PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Mr. Liddy, good to see you, sir.

Thank you for joining us.

I violated rule one of the talk show hosts.

G. GORDON LIDDY, AUTHOR, "WHEN I WAS A KID": You read the book.

BEGALA: I read the whole damn book.

I never read the books. And I always -- and I don't lie either -- but I read the whole book. And you know, it made me laugh in many places. It made me yell in other places.

There was one missing. And that's what I want to start with though.

When you were a kid this was a segregated country. Take a look at this. Here's footage of the march from Selma to Montgomery. John Lewis, who lead that march, savagely beaten. There's John Lewis in the light colored raincoat. He got to the Edmund Petis (ph) Bridge in Selma, Alabama, savagely beaten. There's the bridge.

And you know, today, John Lewis is one of the leaders of the Congress of the United States of America. I mean, how do you look back on the last half century of American history and not point out that we have done almost the impossible. We've made enormous strides on the most vexing problem in America of race.

How come you don't give our country credit for that, Gordon?

LIDDY: Well, I give our country credit for making enormous strides on race with respect to the issue of gun control because as I point out in here...

BEGALA: Do you say gun control is racist?

LIDDY: ... gun control started with racism, and it was -- it started before we were even a country. My home state of Maryland, for example, when it was a colony, what they said was, "If you find a Negro with a weapon you can whip him and take him before a magistrate and take the weapon away."

And this repeated itself throughout the other colonies. And as a matter of fact, there was one court decision that said, "You know, even if it's a free Negro, we can't let them have weapons because then they could go anywhere they want and they could start saying anything they wanted to, and they'd be just like every other person. And we can't have that."

BEGALA: But, but...

LIDDY: We have moved from that.

BEGALA: ... I mean the civil rights movement was not about access to weaponry. It was non-violent revolution in America. You have to admit that was a wonderful thing. We made great progress in America.

LIDDY: It was a wonderful thing, and I beg to differ with you because if you look at some of these civil rights leaders and what they have said back there, they have attacked gun control because they recognize it for what it was.

Read what they say about the Saturday night special, which was just a code word for "keep guns from niggers," is the way they put it.

CARLSON: Well, the Black Panthers were definitely anti-control, that's true.

I'm not sure I devoted the time to your book that Paul did. I thought it was terrific, the parts that I read.

Let me read you my favorite part of your book. It comes from page 84, 84 talking about what's happened to our armed services. Quote, "So we've allowed our armed services to suffer mightily in the past decade, but the problems began in earnest with a plurality of American voters foolishly voted in the physical and moral coward Bill Clinton as commander-in-chief of the armed forces."

Expand on that, if you would.

LIDDY: Sure. As if it were difficult to understand, right.

CARLSON: I just like to hear you say it.

LIDDY: Bill Clinton put in writing how he loathed the armed forces. And he said of course that he kept out of Vietnam to protect his political viability, but he also said to protect himself physically. And that's the definition of a physical coward.

CARLSON: Do you think his past and the lack of credibility he had with the armed services made it difficult for him to act in the international arena? For instance, in Iraq, arms inspectors leave in '98. He does virtually nothing about it, and it requires a new president to deal with the problem.

LIDDY: Well, you had a commander-in-chief who knew nothing of the military and who loathed it. You had a secretary of Defense, no military experience at all, a noted poet, a Republican by the way. Then you had a National Security Adviser, no military experience at all. And so when you had a situation as it arose in Somalia where the first mission was a typical one under the Clinton administration, deliver the pizza, and they were over there, and they said, "Well, now we want to change things and go after the warlords."

And the military said, "OK, we can do that, but we're going to need armor."

And the answer was, "No, no that's going to look awfully aggressive if we send armor."

And you know what the result of that was. BEGALA: Let me see if you've got the courage of your convictions to cross party lines. Now let me read you a quote from General William Turnipseed (ph), retired commander of the Alabama National Guard, unit to which George W. Bush, lieutenant, was assigned as a Guardsman.

Here's what General Turnipseed said about Bush. "Had Bush reported in, I would have some recall, and I do not. I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

Bush never showed up for an enter year of his Guard duty, and Dick Cheney, of course, famously told the Washington Post in 1989 and I quote, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."

He got five draft deferments.

Why not a word? Why do you slam Bill Clinton, who clearly did not serve, and not a word about Bush and Cheney?

LIDDY: Well, what you say is correct, but Bush was a fighter jock.

BEGALA: And he was AWOL for a year.

LIDDY: He flew the planes.

BEGALA: Yes, sir, he did but for a year of his Guard duty he failed to show up. Now doesn't that trouble you as an American patriot? The general who he had to report to says, "I never saw him for a year."

LIDDY: It would bother me.

BEGALA: Why did you leave it out of the book?

I'm just saying, fair is fair. If you have a perfect right as a citizen, we are a free country, we do have free speech. Some say we don't. You have a perfect right to say those things, but I just think it's also fair to take a look and say, "Well, our current president you know, did not cover himself and for that year honor his service in the Guard. But for a year he did not show up for that service."

LIDDY: OK, so your position was my guy was a coward, but your guy was AWOL for a year, but he did serve during the other year.

All right, is that your position?

BEGALA: No, first of all you mischaracterized Clinton's position entirely. But second, he did the same thing as Dick Cheney.

Dick Cheney got five draft deferments and said candidly, honestly, "I had other priorities other than military service."

LIDDY: Yeah...

BEGALA: I salute that candor, but I mean I guess that doesn't...

LIDDY: ... but Dick Cheney did not...

BEGALA: ... does that meet your definition of courage?

LIDDY: ... say "I loath the military."

BEGALA: Neither did Bill Clinton, sir.

LIDDY: Yes, he did.

BEGALA: No, with respect...

LIDDY: And I'll tell you another instance about Bill Clinton. You know, there are two...

BEGALA: You just don't want to talk about Bush and Cheney do you?

LIDDY: ... there are two NCOs that are assigned to the White House. And their job, if anybody thinks that there's an explosive package or something like that that has somehow gotten in the White House, they will disarm it. And they wear civilian clothes during the Clinton administration. But of course they had military haircuts. And I spoke to one of them. And he said, "Bill Clinton came out, spotted them. They tried not to be spotted by him. And he walked over to them and said, I really hate you guys."

BEGALA: I'm sorry, I just don't believe it.

CARLSON: That's really disgusting.

He told you that to your face?

BEGALA: I honestly don't -- you didn't put that in the book.

LIDDY: No, I didn't want to make it about that thick with Bill Clinton. There are other things in there.

BEGALA: OK.

In a minute we'll ask G. Gordon Liddy why he thinks the only acceptable form of gun control is a steady hand.

Also, on this day after Thanksgiving, who better to hear from than some who's just dropped 60 pounds the hard way?

Then from the world of pop, Michael Jackson, or Whacko Jacko as the tabloids call him. We'll talk to a man who's taking on the lonely job of defending the King of Pop.

Finally from the much more sane world of country music, we'll be joined by singer songwriter Steve Earle We'll ask him why he's written a song about one of the most despised men in America. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. He's gone from Watergate figure to best selling author and now radio talk show host. Yet he thinks America's moving in the wrong direction. Maybe he's got a point. G. Gordon Liddy's new book proclaims, "When I Was a Kid, This Was a Free Country." He's in the CROSSFIRE tonight.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Liddy, you make the point in your book that people have less freedom of speech now than they did when you were a kid. Tell us some of the things you could saying 1952 but feel like you can't say now.

LIDDY: Well, you could go on college campus and assert the proposition that there are physical difference between men and women which render women inappropriate for the armed forces. In the Second World War, women played a very fine role by being in the women's auxiliary Army corps and what have you.

They had their own female NCOs, female officers. They were billeted separately so you didn't have all of the he'an and she'an that goes on in the armed forces now. And the theme was "free man to fight." And they did, and it worked.

If anybody back then had suggested that we send the women out to fight the Waffen-SS Panzer divisions, they'd probably put a net around them and brought them to a hospital.

But these days, you know, you have women thinking, "Hey, that's what we ought to be doing."

CARLSON: Name one of the physical differences that prevent women from doing that effectively.

LIDDY: Upper body strength. Absolutely do not have it. I've got a son who is a commander in the SEALS. He weighs a little over 200 pounds before he's rigged out. If he gets shot, his companions will pick him up and take him off the battlefield. The females can't do it.

BEGALA: Let me get to gun control, because I promised we'd get to that too.

One of the things that you say in the book is that "Well, things were better when we could like buy guns through the mail the way Bat Masterson (ph) did" -- the way Lee Harvey Oswald did, you leave out.

But we passed the Brady bill. We passed an assault weapon ban. Let me show you a photograph taken after the Brady bill and after the assault weapons ban.

LIDDY: OK.

BEGALA: This is -- if we can call it up here -- there it is. That's my brother Dave on the left. He's the handsome one. I'm the guy with the gun. And that's a dead deer that I shot under the Brady bill, under the assault weapon ban. I'm a hunter and a gun owner. And Gordon, it hasn't restricted my rights to keep and bear arms a single bit.

Weren't you guys wrong?

LIDDY: No. And...

BEGALA: That deer sure thinks so.

LIDDY: You know, congratulations on being able to be a good shot.

Here's the proper -- if you look at the Second Amendment, the portion that so many people -- and I don't know whether you hold this or not -- say that the words "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," means that it is a collective right that we're talking about -- the National Guard and what have you.

Well, a well-educated person such as yourself should recognize that the first portion there is what is known as a present participle. It does not modify or affect the complete sentence which follows. It's an individual right just as the rights in the First Amendment are individual rights.

And what it was intended to do is not, you know, protect your right to hunt or mine to shoot holes through a target or something like that.

We had just in those days thrown off a tyrannical central government, that of George III. They wanted the American people, should this new central government which they were creating very reluctantly, become tyrannical, to possess the means to do so, and that was state of the art firearms that could be carried by a human being.

That's what it was all about.

CARLSON: Amen. You put that very nicely.

LIDDY: Thank you.

CARLSON: And you put it even better in your book. G. Gordon Liddy, "When I Was Kid, This a Was Free Country." Fantastic book; hope it does well. Thanks for joining us.

LIDDY: Thank you.

BEGALA: Congratulations on the book. Thanks for coming. Good to see you.

BEGALA: Up next, he tried every diet in the book, and then he tried something really radical. Congressman Jerry Nadler, much less of him than usual, will step into the CROSSFIRE next.

And our "Quote of the Day" comes from one of my favorite country singer/songwriters. He's not a particular fan of Tucker Carlson, so you'll hear what he says if you stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back. It's the day after Thanksgiving, and some of you may be wondering how to shed a few pounds. Our next guest may be your inspiration. One of the most recognizable figures in Congress is New York Democrat Jerry Nadler. Last summer, when he was tipping the scales at about 338 pounds, the 5-foot-4 congressman decided drastic measures were in order. He had surgery to reduce the size of his stomach. Sixty pounds lighter and still losing, Congressman Nadler joins us from our New York bureau.

BEGALA: Congressman Nadler, good to see you. I don't mean that just in the perfunctory way. It's terrific to see you.

(APPLAUSE)

You're looking great. And I'm glad things have gone well on the surgery. But let me begin with a statistic that one out of 200 people who have this kind of surgery die from it. Why did you take such drastic steps?

NADLER: Well, I've been overweight my entire adult life, and I've tried everything I could. I've done dieting and Phen-Fen and liquid diets. And I went to Duke University, their weight loss clinic for a month about five years ago. And nothing worked. And you know, as you -- and the statistics are that being grossly overweight leads to all kinds of health problems.

And you know, I have a 17-year-old son. I want to see him grow up. I want to see grandchildren. I have a lot of things I still want to do in public life. And how many grossly overweight 80-year olds do you know?

So I just weighted the risks, and this seemed the better thing to do.

BEGALA: Good for you.

CARLSON: Congressman, we're seeing pictures of you on the screen, how you looked before. You look much better and much different. Congratulations.

But I wonder what message it sends to those viewers who are dieting. I mean, it sounds like you didn't think you had any option that no diet at all worked. Is that right?

NADLER: That's exactly right. You get to the point -- and this is true for many really overweight people -- where the statistics are that for very heavily overweight people, basically nothing except surgery will work to take off large amounts of weight and keep it off.

You can lose weight, but to keep it off is another question. Now when you're grossly overweight, the odds of loosing a lot of that weight and keeping it off without surgery are not very good.

BEGALA: Now Al Roker, the "Today" show weatherman has famously had the surgery of similar -- I guess the same surgery, -- recently. And he looks great too. But I was reading accounts of his surgery, and they said they reduced the size your stomach to about the size of an egg. I mean, what's dinner like now versus a few months ago?

NADLER: Well, I had a slightly different type of surgery than he did. So mine is a little bigger.

But my dinner is exactly -- is similar to what I would have had before, except you eat less. And they tell you to eat the heavy protein first and then the vegetable and then the carbohydrate last, because they're worried you won't get enough protein.

But I generally eat more or less what I would have but less of it, much less of it.

CARLSON: Now Congressman, you mentioned protein versus carbohydrates. Congress has a lot to say about what the American people ought to be eating. And as you know, the USDA pyramid has carbs on the bottom. And the message to people who eat, which of course is everybody, is you ought to be eating a lot of carbohydrates relative to the amount of protein you eat.

Do you think that's the right message to send?

NADLER: Well, I'm not a doctor, and I'm not an expert. I don't know. But I did see in one of the newspapers today someone reported at some medical convention an experiment with a few thousand people in which they concluded that the Atkins approach seemed to be -- which was high fat, low carbohydrates may be superior.

But I'm not the person to ask that. Ask the medical people.

BEGALA: In fact I did see that. Now one caveat our audience should know is that that study was sponsored by the Atkins people as well. So I'm not exactly sure how much faith any of us should...

NADLER: I didn't know that.

BEGALA: ... put in that.

Another public policy question since you are a Member of Congress, and one of my favorites, I have to confess.

NADLER: Thank you.

BEGALA: You're a strong supporter of health insurance for all Americans. Now this is...

NADLER: Yes, indeed.

BEGALA: ... a procedure, I'm told, that costs $55,000. And those of us who are fortunate enough to have health insurance get it covered. What do we do about the 42 million Americans who don't have any health insurance and might need surgery like this?

NADLER: Well, I don't think it costs that much. It probably cost between $30,000 and $40,000.

Well, I think that the -- I think that health -- adequate health coverage, adequate health care is a right, not a privilege, and that everyone ought to have coverage. That's why I favor universal health care insurance. I always have.

And that's a major question for Congress and the administration. What are we going to do about people who are uninsured?

And you know, we have to come up with a solution to that. I mean, that's a major political problem. I personally think -- favor a single payer health plan. But there are other people who have other ideas.

But that is clear. People should not be able to have life saving surgery or other procedures because they have money or because they have health insurance, and other people who don't can't do that. That's just not acceptable, or shouldn't be, in the United States.

Now, Congressman, it seems to be one of the few groups you're still allowed to make fun of is fat people. It seems a shame to me. Wondering, were people cruel to you at the height of your weight?

NADLER: Oh, sure. Not just at the height, but most of my adult life there's always a small percentage of people who will be cruel. I can be campaigning and someone will say, "Why don't you have some self control? Why don't you get a hold of yourself before you ask us to trust you with anything?"

And there are other people, very nice people, who would come up and say, Gee, I think you're a terrific congressman. And I hope you're around for a long time, but I worry about you. You've got to lose weight because I want you around.

And that's well meaning, but also, you know -- and then of course there's always the four-year old in the elevator who says to his father, "Gee, he's very fat."

BEGALA: How about your energy level since the surgery? I mean, you clearly have dropped a lot of weight. I'm sure you're on the way to losing a whole lot more. Is your energy level up, or does the restricted intake of calories (UNINTELLIGIBLE) your energy?

NADLER: No, no, first of all I've always had a very high energy level. But I have I think even higher now. I feel much better. I feel more awake. I feel more eager to take long walks and do things.

And you know, it's been very good in every way.

CARLSON: So what is your -- what is your ideal weight? How slim are you going to get? And are you going to have to buy all new clothes?

NADLER: Well, you don't -- well, I'm probably going to have to buy all new clothes. You don't reach your ideal weight. These types of operations generally get you -- get you to lose between 60 and 80 percent of your excess weight. So you never get down to an ideal, but you're much less overweight than you were before.

BEGALA: Let me just kind of ask you the bottom line question. We've got viewers who are watching this. They may be in a similar situation of the one you were a few months ago.

Do you recommend this procedure to other people watching you right now?

NADLER: I recommend that people who are grossly overweight consult their physician and seriously consider it. There are serious risks, but there are also great advantages. And if you're over -- if you're over a certain mass index, which is a ratio of your weight to your height, the American Heart Association says this is the treatment of choice.

Because if you're really grossly overweight, you run all kinds of health risks, and you have to very cold-bloodily figure out, is that -- what's the greater risk? Is it one out of 200 chances of dying from the surgery? But it's probably greater than one out of 200 risks of dying early from all kinds of -- from heart disease or whatever if you don't if you're really grossly obese.

But you -- I would never recommend the surgery to anyone. I would recommend they seriously consider it. They consult a physician. They read up on the Internet about it, and they weigh the risks.

For a lot of people, it can be lifesaving. It can give us additional years. I think I'll probably be around longer. I'll be able to do more for the public. I'll be able to do more for my grandchildren -- I'll see them.

Whereas, if I didn't, I suspect I'll -- if I hadn't had the operation, I might not.

BEGALA: Congressman Jerry Nadler, from New York, facing this with the same clear-eyed courage and optimism as you always face our questions with. Please come back often...

NADLER: Thank you.

BEGALA: ... to CROSSFIRE. We love seeing you.

CROSSFIRE continues after a CNN "News Alert." Still ahead though, Michael Jackson didn't actually drop his son, but he clearly lost his head.

Next our "Quote of the Day" though, is in a boxing update from a guy who usually works with a guitar. His opponent this time is someone very familiar to all of you. All of that after a CNN "News Alert."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. "The Washington Post" calls Steve Earle -- quote -- "rock's most outspoken critic of President Bush in the war on terror." Needless to say, we couldn't pass up a chance to interview yet another singer- songwriter with embarassing political views.

So we taped a segment with him, which you'll see in just a few moments. We're telling you this now, because we want you to watch that segment very carefully, and see if you agree with Earle's assessment of the interview, as told to a D.C. concert audience and reported by the Washington Post. It's our "Quote of the Day."

Quote: "Tucker Carlson never laid a [blankin] glove on me."

Well, you know, Paul, this is what you get -- pulling back just a tiny bit. Steve Earle comes, seems like a nice enough guy, little sweaty, little shaky, I'm thinking, How would I feel -- no truly, how I feel if had to play -- if I had to go play in front of people I would feel out of place. So I sort of laid back a little bit. And repays with me this.

BEGALA: You know, let people judge for themselves. I was in that D.C. concert as well. I was in the audience for that. And you should consider it a compliment. He's plugging your show in front of hundreds of drunken people who didn't remember the next morning. So maybenot...

CARLSON: No! He's mocking me in front of country fans and that's the worth.

BEGALA: You know what? I am a huge Steve Earle fan. A huge country music fan. People can judge for themselves.

CARLSON: I loved his work -- his Taliban work. I think it's some of his best.

BEGALA: He -- you will see for yourself. It's a terrific song.

Well, stay close to your television. Be ready to look for glove marks. Because our interview with Steve Earle is coming up in just a little while.

Next though: Has Michael Jackson completely lost it? Do I even have to ask this question? We'll have the one person in the world with the courage who thinks the answer is no.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: By now, you've no doubt the horrible video images of Michael Jackson's outrageous stunt last week. But just in case you haven't, here they are again.

Inexplicably, Mr. Jackson held his baby boy from the Fourth Floor balcony of a Berlin hotel. At one point he was only holding the baby with one hand as the little guy squirmed high above the citizens of Berlin. The next day, Jackson apologized, saying -- quote -- "I made a terrible mistake. I got caught up in the excitement of the moment. I would never intentionally endanger the lives of my children."

Didn't help. Jackson got clobbered in the media, as he so richly deserved. London's "Daily Mirror" ran the screaming headline "Mad Bad Dad." And on this side of the pond, people are agreeing with the New York Post headline "Jacko Goes Over the Edge."

However, our next guest is not falling in with the crowd or dropping his support for the King of Pop. Joining us from New York, the inimitable Mo Rocca, correspondent for the "Daily Show" on Comedy Central.

Mo, good to see you.

MO ROCCA, "THE DAILY SHOW": Thank you having me. Thank you. I appreciate it .

CARLSON: Mo, thanks for coming on and taking the bold position.

ROCCA: Sure.

CARLSON: I'll admit I've got some concerns about Michael Jackson. Do you think they're founded?

ROCCA: Well, here's what troubles me. I don't think that we should be imposing one standard of child rearing on everyone else willie nillie.

I mean, the fact is that pop stars are non-traditional care givers. You may not choose to dangle your baby out of a window. Michael Jackson does. If Mariah Carey had a baby, who knows where she'd dangle it.

But the point is, the point is that baby is safe and sound. And that really is what matters.

BEGALA: Mo, let me read you a comment though from Mr. A. Sydney Johnson, Sydney Johnson, A period, the president and CEO of Prevent Child Abuse America. And he says this, "It is a painful reminder that even the most well intentioned among us sometimes act in ways that put children in danger of being abused of neglected."

Do you agree with Mr. Johnson that Michael Jackson was well intended when he held his baby off a balcony?

ROCCA: Well, let me explain. I've looked at a lot of different polls, and the research I have, and it's right here, ti shows that American babies are inordinantly afraid of heights, and I think what Michael Jackson is doing is he's inoculating his baby against vertigo.

BEGALA: That's a valid point. I hadn't thought of that.

CARLSON: But see -- in a vacuum, I might buy what you're saying. You make some compelling points. You are making the same case of (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

ROCCA: Oh, please.

CARLSON: ... that Al Gore is making in his new book about families. But...

ROCCA: Yes.

CARLSON: There is a history here with Michael Jackson. I'm not simply talking about the child molesting. I'm also talking -- or the allegations of child molesting -- I'm talking about the problems of course with his nose.

And I want to read you a quote from a plastic surgeon Edward Demaneske (ph) who says this, quote, "Short of wearing a prosthesis for your nose, you could take tissue from the forehead or the back of the ear to build up the area, but I don't think he wants that. It seems like he's fairly comfortable with the way he looks which is unfortunate because it's a bad reflection on all of plastic surgery."

ROCCA: Look, look Michael Jackson has made a bold choice. So many people I know complain about their nose, and they're too lazy to do anything about it. All right. And my problem with criticism of the way he looks is I think it's tinged with a certain amount of prejudice. I think that Michael Jackson needs to be judged on the content of his character, not on the bleached mocha latte light color of his skin.

I mean, for too long, for too long celebrities with bleached mocha latte light skin have been the targets of persecution.

BEGALA: That's a very important point.

Mo, the king of pop, wacko Jacko was in Berlin to receive what's called a Bambi Award.

ROCCA: Right.

BEGALA: Any idea what that is or what he did to earn such a prestigious award?

ROCCA: It is for children. It is an award on behalf of children.

Look, I think we need to step back and take I think a historical perspective. My good friend Robert Dylak (ph) has written a wonderful piece about JFK in the Atlantic Monthly. John F. Kennedy suffered so much pain through is life in large part because of the operations he had to undergo for different ailments.

Michael Jackson too has gone through five rhinoplasty operations. They're very painful, and I think we know that severe pain impairs judgment. So I'd like to think that Michael Jackson's baby dangling incident is sort of his Bay of Pigs fiasco.

OK, and we know that and we know that the Bay of Pigs was followed by the Cuban missile crisis triumph. So I'm excited. I'm actually looking forward to Michael Jackson's Cuban missile crisis resolution.

CARLSON: I'm glad you brought the political angle into this, Mo. Because as you know, for many years, Michael Jackson has been a particularly good fruitful raiser for the Democratic Party. Wondering if you're thinking he's going to be in as much demand now that he's dangled his son out the window?

ROCCA: You know, I think that -- I think that if there's anything both parties can agree on, it's the importance of family. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that in a way I was kind of moved by yesterday's scene you know, because the statistics show that American families continue to break down, and yet Michael Jackson's baby trusts him enough to allow him to dangle out a fourth floor window. And there's something I think kind of poignant about that.

BEGALA: Let me show you another picture of Michael Jackson with our first family, with America's first family, the mother and father of our current president. There they are right there. Michael Jackson with George Sr. and Barbara Bush. And in fact in that session, they confided to the king of pop that they themselves had dropped their son George on his head as a baby.

And so you see, it happens all of the time, Mo.

ROCCA: And he's the president now.

I mean, you know, look, I have a lot of problems with all of these objections. I mean, Tucker, as long as I've known you you've been a strict constructionist when it comes to the interpretation of the Constitution. You are an ardent defender of Robert Bork. Where then in the Constitution does it say that a pop icon is not allowed to dangle his baby out of a fourth floor window? I don't know where.

CARLSON: That's an excellent point. And the document is strangely silent on the whole question of pop icons.

And it's upset constitutional scholars for decades, as you know. My question to you though, Mo, as a prognosticator, where does...

ROCCA: Yes...

CARLSON: Where does Michael go from now, now that he's done the dangling? What's the next step for him?

ROCCA: Well, I -- he doesn't have much cartilage left. So I don't know if he's going to be having any more rhinoplasty done to him.

You know, I don't know. Look, all I know is we should leave no child behind, and he dangled the baby, but the baby is back in safe hands.

So you know, that's all I have to say. I mean, you know, I can only spend so much for him.

BEGALA: We're almost out of time. I'm just wondering...

ROCCA: Yes.

BEGALA: ... I'm wondering why he suppose he picked Germany for this venue. And we're almost out of time, but is there any significance to the fact that picked Berlin to dangle the...

ROCCA: Well, I don't know, but I think, I think that you know Germany has bashed America long enough, so it's time to circle the wagons around Michael and defend one of our own.

BEGALA: Very good point.

CARLSON: Amen.

Mo Rocca, our cultural correspondent, a correspondent from the "Daily Show" on Comedy Central. One of our favorite guests. Thank you.

Still ahead, your chance to fire back at us. Thousands of Canadians had done just that. But first, John Walker Lindh is safely in prison, but at least one person is still defending the Marin County Taliban. Country music star and John Walker Lindh fan Steve Earl joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: The Revolutionary War gave us "Yankee Doodle." The War of 1812 gave us "the Star-Spangled Banner." "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" came along during the Civil War. There are hummable tunes associated with just about every U.S. war, except the war on terrorism. Now, singer Steve Earle is attempting to fill that void with "John Walker's Blues." Unfortunately, it's a sympathetic take on the life of Taliban American John Walker Lindh. Who knows how well it will sell? You never know, though. So, to the tune of "John Walker's Blues," Steve Earle joins us here in the CROSSFIRE.

BEGALA: Let me begin, you got a lot of grief for this song, because it takes the first person narrative of John Walker, the American Taliban. Did Johnny Cash get a lot of grief when he sang in "Folsom Prison Blues" that "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die?" Did that make country fans around the country to shoot people in Reno for no good reason?

EARLE: Well, I didn't think for one second that this was exactly the same thing. I mean, I knew I was going to get a lot of grief. In fact, I got grief, most of it from exactly the people that I expected to. I mean...

BEGALA: Who were they and what did they say?

EARLE: "The New York Post" and the local talk radio host, who actually was my lawyer for about 30 seconds back in the '80s. And it -- you know, it was some people that I expected to react that strongly to. And you know, most everyone else has at least acknowledged, number one, that I actually have the right to write anything that I want to. And that's part of what a democracy is about. And understood that speaking when you assume a character, you're writing in the first person, you are assuming character. It doesn't really have anything to do with my views, it's lending someone else a voice.

CARLSON: Well, I mean, nobody here in Washington would contest your right to write whatever you want, and if it's a good tune I hope it's judged on basis of that rather than on the politics, but my question was, why John Walker? This kind of annoying rich kid from Marin County, of all the people you could pick?

EARLE: Because I got a 20-year-old son and I guess I reacted to it differently. When I first saw him, which was probably on CNN like everybody else did, I saw an underfed 20-year-old, you know, and I have got a 20-year-old. I have a son that's about four months younger than he is, and who looks underfed even when I feed him. So I reacted to it as a parent. I realized that he probably had parents and that they were probably sick.

BEGALA: In fact, our president, it's interesting you say that, that's how he reacted at first. President Bush's first comments about this where he said, "looks like a troubled young man," and I suspect his kids, his girls are right about that same age, and maybe he too first began looking at this as a dad first. And law enforcement had to do its job, but are you familiar -- do you ever read the Eudora Welty (ph) short story about the man who murdered Medgar Evers? She wrote in his first person. And it is one of the most chilling stories I've ever read. She wasn't trying to praise the man who murdered Medgar Evers like a dog, but by taking his voice, it gave us an enormous insight into the kind of person (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

EARLE: Yeah, I mean, I don't condone what John Walker Lindh did, because I'm sort of the older I get, I don't even hunt anymore, I occasionally humiliate a fish before I put it back in the water is about as violent as I get, and I have a problem with anybody who takes up arms against anybody for anything, and for any reason, and especially when it's supposed to be for spiritual reasons. You know, jihad and crusade are words in different languages that mean the same thing.

CARLSON: But you say you have a problem with people that take up arms -- in your liner notes, I think, in this album, you talk about who some of the real American heroes and patriots are, in your opinion. Here are some of the names you list -- John Reed, Emma Goldman, Abby Hoffman, Bobby Seal, Malcolm X. Now, whatever else they were, leftist of course, but apart from that, these are all people who espoused to one degree or another violence.

EARLE: Well, I mean...

CARLSON: Every one of them.

EARLE: Yeah, I think most of them, but I think at one period or another, is the key term here. I know -- you know, I probably -- I grew up during the Vietnam War and I'm a product of that. I grew up with that war on television, and it went on for so long that I actually was old enough to be drafted before it was over with, and I don't remember a time that I didn't hear about it.

And so I come from that background, and I'm not an apologetic lefty, but I don't know think any of that has anything to do with why I wrote this song. This is strictly a matter of there are plenty of people vilifying John Walker Lindh. And I felt, I've done it before, I've done it with other characters and other songs, some fictitious, some people that actually lived. And I felt like it was necessary because no one else was going to write this song but me.

BEGALA: That's true. You wrote a song called "Billy Austin" about a murder, which is another terrific song, I'm a big fan as you can tell. You wrote a song called "Jonathan's Song," not about a fictitious character.

EARLE: That was more of me processing that I witnessed. I witnessed an execution in Texas a few years back and that was really more me processing that. I didn't mean to put myself in that position. There were a lot of guys on death row that I wrote to -- a lot of guys in prison, if they wrote me I would write them back.

And this guy asked me to witness his execution. I didn't really know how to say no. I spent a lot of time trying to avoid ending up in this. And it's no secret I'm opposed to the death penalty that's where my major activism. It's where I do most of the work outside of my day job that I do.

It was a pretty horrific thing and it took me a long time to process it. But that was the same thing. I was writing -- Jon was guilty, innocent guys to don't write me for some reason and my opposition of the death penalty comes from -- it's a spiritual -- I'm opposed to it politically. But also, if this is democracy, if the government kills somebody, then I'm killing somebody. And I object to the damage that does to my spirit. It really that is basic for me.

BEGALA: Steve Earle, the album is "Jerusalem." Congratulations. I love it terrific album. Great effort. Thank you for joining us.

CARLSON: Thank you.

BEGALA: When we come back, it is your turn to "Fireback" at us and boy, do you. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, the show that was interactive before interactive was cool. Cool now.

In our "Fireback" segment Reece Fuller from Jonesboro, Georgia writes, "Tucker, you need Liddy's mustache to go with that wig you're wearing."

BEGALA: Ooh.

CARLSON: That's a good point. Next time up at the costume store I'm going to pick one up a mustache.

BEGALA: You'd do the mustache with the wig?

CARLSON: Next time when I get a new, yes I'll get a mustache.

BEGALA: You think I need a wig?

CARLSON: Yes. And chest rug, too.

BEGALA: Nancy Groft -- the chest rug was an image I didn't need, Tucker. When I close my eyes to sleep tonight...

CARLSON: You know it's a joke, Paul, but people will believe it.

BEGALA: Nancy Groft in Glendora, New Jersey writes, "G. Gordon Liddy says America's changed. i guess so. Only in America could a convicted felon have a successful career as a right-wing pundit."

Well, I guess that's only in America could a convicted drunk driver become president of the United States, so God bless America with land of the second chance. I'm all for it.

CARLSON: You know there's thinly veiled hostility toward America in that e-mail. Why am I not surprised?

Ramona Ojeda from Carmichael, California writes, "I think it's just great that Representative Jerrold Nadler is doing something about his weight! You go, Jerrold! We're rooting for him out here in California."

That's sweet. You know, there are no fat members of the California delegation.

BEGALA: That is right?

CARLSON: They take that stuff really seriously. They've been worried about Jerry Nadler out there for a long time.

BEGALA: No, I admire, took drastic steps for a drastic problem.

Andrew Daly (ph) in Fredericktown, New Brunswick -- no, wait Martin Carswell jumping over here to London, Ontario: "Keep up the good work USA, unfortunately we have spineless jelly fish up here for government but 98 percent of us love you guys. Go kick some terrorist butt!"

Gee, Martin, thanks a lot, I think. I'm not entirely sure why...

CARLSON: Yes, let's all move -- there are good Canadians. When I mock Canada do I in loving, constructive way.

BEGALA: Because you hate them.

CARLSON: No, I do I it out of love, you can be better than you are, Canada. Rise up.

Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Mike McCuhe (ph), I'm from Swansboro (ph), North Carolina. My question's for Paul. Bill Clinton did a lot of campaigning for Democrats this is past election, nearly all lost. My question is will Alandro campaign in Louisiana win when Bill Clinton offers to help?

BEGALA: First off that's (UNINTELLIGIBLE). The fact he went there didn't mean they lost, if he'd have been on ballot he'd have beaten George W. Bush like a bad piece of meat in 2000. He'd be in his third term like right now which we should have. The only reason we have 22nd Amendment is the right-wing Republicans didn't want another FDR.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: That darn Constitution, it's in the way of our power.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... limits our right to pick who ever we want for our president.

CARLSON: That darn constitution.

BEGALA: Do you I think Bush would have beaten Clinton?

CARLSON: I think it's unconstitutional, and for me that's enough.

BEGALA: Don't dodge the question.

CARLSON: Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Erica Morgan (ph), I'm from Charleston, South Carolina. My question is if the economy continues do do poorly, do you think Bush will be re-elected in 2004? And if so why?

CARLSON: Everybody, Democrats and Republicans, you hope Democrats want the economy to do better, but unseemliness with which Democrats try to tie poor economy with the president didn't work because it's not possible to connect Bush to the souring economy. It -- the argument never made sense. They blame the head of the SEC, huh?

BEGALA: Why enact Bush's economic policy if it has no effect on economy? Congress enacted policy, the economy went in the crapper. we ought to get a new president and new economic policy and I think we will in 2004.

CARLSON: The economy was on it's way down before.

BEGALA: Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Gary Segal (ph) from Montgomery Village, Maryland. I'm about the same age as G. Gordon Liddy, and I remember things way back when. Tell me, for each of you, do you think that John Ashcroft is the most serious threat to American freedom since Senator McCarthy?

BEGALA: You know I've thought about that question. No. Ashcroft, he was not the best person for the job. I know the president wanted a conservative Republican, but there are conserve Republicans who are not insane.

Ashcroft spent thousand of your dollars to hang a burqa over a statue in the Justice Department that's been there for 50 years because it has a naked breast. Reports he doesn't want calico cats at his events because he thinks they carry the spirit of Satan. Ashcroft is unfit to be attorney general. We ought to get rid of him.

CARLSON: That kind of over the top hyperbole is self discrediting. He's the greatest threat since Joe McCarthy, he's insane, he's afraid of witches. You may disagree with the guy politically, doesn't mean he's evil. Maybe that's a lesson Democrats ought to learn because the public doesn't care for it when you dismiss all of your enemies as evil.

BEGALA: Which is exactly what the right did to our attorney general, the Clinton administration, Janet Reno. John Ashcroft is not half the woman that Janet Reno was. Bring back Janet. God bless Janet.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again Monday for yet more CROSSFIRE. You can't wait and neither can we.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now. Have a great weekend.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 29, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala/ On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, when he was a kid was the country really freer? The always outspoken G. Gordon Liddy freely tells us what's changed.

He's dropped more than 60 pounds thank to surgery on his stomach.

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: Because your stomach is so smaller you feel full much more quickly so you don't eat nearly as much.

ANNOUNCER: we'll talk to the incredible shrinking congressman.

Do not attempt this at home, even if you're the King of Pop. Perhaps it's time to pop the question is Jacko whacko?

Is he worth singing about? We'll ask Steve Earle what he was thinking when he wrote a song sympathetic to Taliban American John Walker Lindh.

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. An unusually good show tonight. A musician who's trying immortalize John Walker Lindh in song. Who will you end up feeling sorry for?

And speaking of singers who maybe losing touch with reality, Michael Jackson. We'll debate the gloved one's public meltdown with the one man in America willing to defend him.

But first, political terms expire, old soldiers fade away, but Watergate conspirators just keep going and going and going. At least one does. G. Gordon Liddy whose radio talk show is a fixture of life here in Washington and beyond. He just published a new memoir, "When I Was A Kid, This Was A Free Country." Please welcome G. Gordon Liddy. PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Mr. Liddy, good to see you, sir.

Thank you for joining us.

I violated rule one of the talk show hosts.

G. GORDON LIDDY, AUTHOR, "WHEN I WAS A KID": You read the book.

BEGALA: I read the whole damn book.

I never read the books. And I always -- and I don't lie either -- but I read the whole book. And you know, it made me laugh in many places. It made me yell in other places.

There was one missing. And that's what I want to start with though.

When you were a kid this was a segregated country. Take a look at this. Here's footage of the march from Selma to Montgomery. John Lewis, who lead that march, savagely beaten. There's John Lewis in the light colored raincoat. He got to the Edmund Petis (ph) Bridge in Selma, Alabama, savagely beaten. There's the bridge.

And you know, today, John Lewis is one of the leaders of the Congress of the United States of America. I mean, how do you look back on the last half century of American history and not point out that we have done almost the impossible. We've made enormous strides on the most vexing problem in America of race.

How come you don't give our country credit for that, Gordon?

LIDDY: Well, I give our country credit for making enormous strides on race with respect to the issue of gun control because as I point out in here...

BEGALA: Do you say gun control is racist?

LIDDY: ... gun control started with racism, and it was -- it started before we were even a country. My home state of Maryland, for example, when it was a colony, what they said was, "If you find a Negro with a weapon you can whip him and take him before a magistrate and take the weapon away."

And this repeated itself throughout the other colonies. And as a matter of fact, there was one court decision that said, "You know, even if it's a free Negro, we can't let them have weapons because then they could go anywhere they want and they could start saying anything they wanted to, and they'd be just like every other person. And we can't have that."

BEGALA: But, but...

LIDDY: We have moved from that.

BEGALA: ... I mean the civil rights movement was not about access to weaponry. It was non-violent revolution in America. You have to admit that was a wonderful thing. We made great progress in America.

LIDDY: It was a wonderful thing, and I beg to differ with you because if you look at some of these civil rights leaders and what they have said back there, they have attacked gun control because they recognize it for what it was.

Read what they say about the Saturday night special, which was just a code word for "keep guns from niggers," is the way they put it.

CARLSON: Well, the Black Panthers were definitely anti-control, that's true.

I'm not sure I devoted the time to your book that Paul did. I thought it was terrific, the parts that I read.

Let me read you my favorite part of your book. It comes from page 84, 84 talking about what's happened to our armed services. Quote, "So we've allowed our armed services to suffer mightily in the past decade, but the problems began in earnest with a plurality of American voters foolishly voted in the physical and moral coward Bill Clinton as commander-in-chief of the armed forces."

Expand on that, if you would.

LIDDY: Sure. As if it were difficult to understand, right.

CARLSON: I just like to hear you say it.

LIDDY: Bill Clinton put in writing how he loathed the armed forces. And he said of course that he kept out of Vietnam to protect his political viability, but he also said to protect himself physically. And that's the definition of a physical coward.

CARLSON: Do you think his past and the lack of credibility he had with the armed services made it difficult for him to act in the international arena? For instance, in Iraq, arms inspectors leave in '98. He does virtually nothing about it, and it requires a new president to deal with the problem.

LIDDY: Well, you had a commander-in-chief who knew nothing of the military and who loathed it. You had a secretary of Defense, no military experience at all, a noted poet, a Republican by the way. Then you had a National Security Adviser, no military experience at all. And so when you had a situation as it arose in Somalia where the first mission was a typical one under the Clinton administration, deliver the pizza, and they were over there, and they said, "Well, now we want to change things and go after the warlords."

And the military said, "OK, we can do that, but we're going to need armor."

And the answer was, "No, no that's going to look awfully aggressive if we send armor."

And you know what the result of that was. BEGALA: Let me see if you've got the courage of your convictions to cross party lines. Now let me read you a quote from General William Turnipseed (ph), retired commander of the Alabama National Guard, unit to which George W. Bush, lieutenant, was assigned as a Guardsman.

Here's what General Turnipseed said about Bush. "Had Bush reported in, I would have some recall, and I do not. I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

Bush never showed up for an enter year of his Guard duty, and Dick Cheney, of course, famously told the Washington Post in 1989 and I quote, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."

He got five draft deferments.

Why not a word? Why do you slam Bill Clinton, who clearly did not serve, and not a word about Bush and Cheney?

LIDDY: Well, what you say is correct, but Bush was a fighter jock.

BEGALA: And he was AWOL for a year.

LIDDY: He flew the planes.

BEGALA: Yes, sir, he did but for a year of his Guard duty he failed to show up. Now doesn't that trouble you as an American patriot? The general who he had to report to says, "I never saw him for a year."

LIDDY: It would bother me.

BEGALA: Why did you leave it out of the book?

I'm just saying, fair is fair. If you have a perfect right as a citizen, we are a free country, we do have free speech. Some say we don't. You have a perfect right to say those things, but I just think it's also fair to take a look and say, "Well, our current president you know, did not cover himself and for that year honor his service in the Guard. But for a year he did not show up for that service."

LIDDY: OK, so your position was my guy was a coward, but your guy was AWOL for a year, but he did serve during the other year.

All right, is that your position?

BEGALA: No, first of all you mischaracterized Clinton's position entirely. But second, he did the same thing as Dick Cheney.

Dick Cheney got five draft deferments and said candidly, honestly, "I had other priorities other than military service."

LIDDY: Yeah...

BEGALA: I salute that candor, but I mean I guess that doesn't...

LIDDY: ... but Dick Cheney did not...

BEGALA: ... does that meet your definition of courage?

LIDDY: ... say "I loath the military."

BEGALA: Neither did Bill Clinton, sir.

LIDDY: Yes, he did.

BEGALA: No, with respect...

LIDDY: And I'll tell you another instance about Bill Clinton. You know, there are two...

BEGALA: You just don't want to talk about Bush and Cheney do you?

LIDDY: ... there are two NCOs that are assigned to the White House. And their job, if anybody thinks that there's an explosive package or something like that that has somehow gotten in the White House, they will disarm it. And they wear civilian clothes during the Clinton administration. But of course they had military haircuts. And I spoke to one of them. And he said, "Bill Clinton came out, spotted them. They tried not to be spotted by him. And he walked over to them and said, I really hate you guys."

BEGALA: I'm sorry, I just don't believe it.

CARLSON: That's really disgusting.

He told you that to your face?

BEGALA: I honestly don't -- you didn't put that in the book.

LIDDY: No, I didn't want to make it about that thick with Bill Clinton. There are other things in there.

BEGALA: OK.

In a minute we'll ask G. Gordon Liddy why he thinks the only acceptable form of gun control is a steady hand.

Also, on this day after Thanksgiving, who better to hear from than some who's just dropped 60 pounds the hard way?

Then from the world of pop, Michael Jackson, or Whacko Jacko as the tabloids call him. We'll talk to a man who's taking on the lonely job of defending the King of Pop.

Finally from the much more sane world of country music, we'll be joined by singer songwriter Steve Earle We'll ask him why he's written a song about one of the most despised men in America. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. He's gone from Watergate figure to best selling author and now radio talk show host. Yet he thinks America's moving in the wrong direction. Maybe he's got a point. G. Gordon Liddy's new book proclaims, "When I Was a Kid, This Was a Free Country." He's in the CROSSFIRE tonight.

CARLSON: Now, Mr. Liddy, you make the point in your book that people have less freedom of speech now than they did when you were a kid. Tell us some of the things you could saying 1952 but feel like you can't say now.

LIDDY: Well, you could go on college campus and assert the proposition that there are physical difference between men and women which render women inappropriate for the armed forces. In the Second World War, women played a very fine role by being in the women's auxiliary Army corps and what have you.

They had their own female NCOs, female officers. They were billeted separately so you didn't have all of the he'an and she'an that goes on in the armed forces now. And the theme was "free man to fight." And they did, and it worked.

If anybody back then had suggested that we send the women out to fight the Waffen-SS Panzer divisions, they'd probably put a net around them and brought them to a hospital.

But these days, you know, you have women thinking, "Hey, that's what we ought to be doing."

CARLSON: Name one of the physical differences that prevent women from doing that effectively.

LIDDY: Upper body strength. Absolutely do not have it. I've got a son who is a commander in the SEALS. He weighs a little over 200 pounds before he's rigged out. If he gets shot, his companions will pick him up and take him off the battlefield. The females can't do it.

BEGALA: Let me get to gun control, because I promised we'd get to that too.

One of the things that you say in the book is that "Well, things were better when we could like buy guns through the mail the way Bat Masterson (ph) did" -- the way Lee Harvey Oswald did, you leave out.

But we passed the Brady bill. We passed an assault weapon ban. Let me show you a photograph taken after the Brady bill and after the assault weapons ban.

LIDDY: OK.

BEGALA: This is -- if we can call it up here -- there it is. That's my brother Dave on the left. He's the handsome one. I'm the guy with the gun. And that's a dead deer that I shot under the Brady bill, under the assault weapon ban. I'm a hunter and a gun owner. And Gordon, it hasn't restricted my rights to keep and bear arms a single bit.

Weren't you guys wrong?

LIDDY: No. And...

BEGALA: That deer sure thinks so.

LIDDY: You know, congratulations on being able to be a good shot.

Here's the proper -- if you look at the Second Amendment, the portion that so many people -- and I don't know whether you hold this or not -- say that the words "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," means that it is a collective right that we're talking about -- the National Guard and what have you.

Well, a well-educated person such as yourself should recognize that the first portion there is what is known as a present participle. It does not modify or affect the complete sentence which follows. It's an individual right just as the rights in the First Amendment are individual rights.

And what it was intended to do is not, you know, protect your right to hunt or mine to shoot holes through a target or something like that.

We had just in those days thrown off a tyrannical central government, that of George III. They wanted the American people, should this new central government which they were creating very reluctantly, become tyrannical, to possess the means to do so, and that was state of the art firearms that could be carried by a human being.

That's what it was all about.

CARLSON: Amen. You put that very nicely.

LIDDY: Thank you.

CARLSON: And you put it even better in your book. G. Gordon Liddy, "When I Was Kid, This a Was Free Country." Fantastic book; hope it does well. Thanks for joining us.

LIDDY: Thank you.

BEGALA: Congratulations on the book. Thanks for coming. Good to see you.

BEGALA: Up next, he tried every diet in the book, and then he tried something really radical. Congressman Jerry Nadler, much less of him than usual, will step into the CROSSFIRE next.

And our "Quote of the Day" comes from one of my favorite country singer/songwriters. He's not a particular fan of Tucker Carlson, so you'll hear what he says if you stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back. It's the day after Thanksgiving, and some of you may be wondering how to shed a few pounds. Our next guest may be your inspiration. One of the most recognizable figures in Congress is New York Democrat Jerry Nadler. Last summer, when he was tipping the scales at about 338 pounds, the 5-foot-4 congressman decided drastic measures were in order. He had surgery to reduce the size of his stomach. Sixty pounds lighter and still losing, Congressman Nadler joins us from our New York bureau.

BEGALA: Congressman Nadler, good to see you. I don't mean that just in the perfunctory way. It's terrific to see you.

(APPLAUSE)

You're looking great. And I'm glad things have gone well on the surgery. But let me begin with a statistic that one out of 200 people who have this kind of surgery die from it. Why did you take such drastic steps?

NADLER: Well, I've been overweight my entire adult life, and I've tried everything I could. I've done dieting and Phen-Fen and liquid diets. And I went to Duke University, their weight loss clinic for a month about five years ago. And nothing worked. And you know, as you -- and the statistics are that being grossly overweight leads to all kinds of health problems.

And you know, I have a 17-year-old son. I want to see him grow up. I want to see grandchildren. I have a lot of things I still want to do in public life. And how many grossly overweight 80-year olds do you know?

So I just weighted the risks, and this seemed the better thing to do.

BEGALA: Good for you.

CARLSON: Congressman, we're seeing pictures of you on the screen, how you looked before. You look much better and much different. Congratulations.

But I wonder what message it sends to those viewers who are dieting. I mean, it sounds like you didn't think you had any option that no diet at all worked. Is that right?

NADLER: That's exactly right. You get to the point -- and this is true for many really overweight people -- where the statistics are that for very heavily overweight people, basically nothing except surgery will work to take off large amounts of weight and keep it off.

You can lose weight, but to keep it off is another question. Now when you're grossly overweight, the odds of loosing a lot of that weight and keeping it off without surgery are not very good.

BEGALA: Now Al Roker, the "Today" show weatherman has famously had the surgery of similar -- I guess the same surgery, -- recently. And he looks great too. But I was reading accounts of his surgery, and they said they reduced the size your stomach to about the size of an egg. I mean, what's dinner like now versus a few months ago?

NADLER: Well, I had a slightly different type of surgery than he did. So mine is a little bigger.

But my dinner is exactly -- is similar to what I would have had before, except you eat less. And they tell you to eat the heavy protein first and then the vegetable and then the carbohydrate last, because they're worried you won't get enough protein.

But I generally eat more or less what I would have but less of it, much less of it.

CARLSON: Now Congressman, you mentioned protein versus carbohydrates. Congress has a lot to say about what the American people ought to be eating. And as you know, the USDA pyramid has carbs on the bottom. And the message to people who eat, which of course is everybody, is you ought to be eating a lot of carbohydrates relative to the amount of protein you eat.

Do you think that's the right message to send?

NADLER: Well, I'm not a doctor, and I'm not an expert. I don't know. But I did see in one of the newspapers today someone reported at some medical convention an experiment with a few thousand people in which they concluded that the Atkins approach seemed to be -- which was high fat, low carbohydrates may be superior.

But I'm not the person to ask that. Ask the medical people.

BEGALA: In fact I did see that. Now one caveat our audience should know is that that study was sponsored by the Atkins people as well. So I'm not exactly sure how much faith any of us should...

NADLER: I didn't know that.

BEGALA: ... put in that.

Another public policy question since you are a Member of Congress, and one of my favorites, I have to confess.

NADLER: Thank you.

BEGALA: You're a strong supporter of health insurance for all Americans. Now this is...

NADLER: Yes, indeed.

BEGALA: ... a procedure, I'm told, that costs $55,000. And those of us who are fortunate enough to have health insurance get it covered. What do we do about the 42 million Americans who don't have any health insurance and might need surgery like this?

NADLER: Well, I don't think it costs that much. It probably cost between $30,000 and $40,000.

Well, I think that the -- I think that health -- adequate health coverage, adequate health care is a right, not a privilege, and that everyone ought to have coverage. That's why I favor universal health care insurance. I always have.

And that's a major question for Congress and the administration. What are we going to do about people who are uninsured?

And you know, we have to come up with a solution to that. I mean, that's a major political problem. I personally think -- favor a single payer health plan. But there are other people who have other ideas.

But that is clear. People should not be able to have life saving surgery or other procedures because they have money or because they have health insurance, and other people who don't can't do that. That's just not acceptable, or shouldn't be, in the United States.

Now, Congressman, it seems to be one of the few groups you're still allowed to make fun of is fat people. It seems a shame to me. Wondering, were people cruel to you at the height of your weight?

NADLER: Oh, sure. Not just at the height, but most of my adult life there's always a small percentage of people who will be cruel. I can be campaigning and someone will say, "Why don't you have some self control? Why don't you get a hold of yourself before you ask us to trust you with anything?"

And there are other people, very nice people, who would come up and say, Gee, I think you're a terrific congressman. And I hope you're around for a long time, but I worry about you. You've got to lose weight because I want you around.

And that's well meaning, but also, you know -- and then of course there's always the four-year old in the elevator who says to his father, "Gee, he's very fat."

BEGALA: How about your energy level since the surgery? I mean, you clearly have dropped a lot of weight. I'm sure you're on the way to losing a whole lot more. Is your energy level up, or does the restricted intake of calories (UNINTELLIGIBLE) your energy?

NADLER: No, no, first of all I've always had a very high energy level. But I have I think even higher now. I feel much better. I feel more awake. I feel more eager to take long walks and do things.

And you know, it's been very good in every way.

CARLSON: So what is your -- what is your ideal weight? How slim are you going to get? And are you going to have to buy all new clothes?

NADLER: Well, you don't -- well, I'm probably going to have to buy all new clothes. You don't reach your ideal weight. These types of operations generally get you -- get you to lose between 60 and 80 percent of your excess weight. So you never get down to an ideal, but you're much less overweight than you were before.

BEGALA: Let me just kind of ask you the bottom line question. We've got viewers who are watching this. They may be in a similar situation of the one you were a few months ago.

Do you recommend this procedure to other people watching you right now?

NADLER: I recommend that people who are grossly overweight consult their physician and seriously consider it. There are serious risks, but there are also great advantages. And if you're over -- if you're over a certain mass index, which is a ratio of your weight to your height, the American Heart Association says this is the treatment of choice.

Because if you're really grossly overweight, you run all kinds of health risks, and you have to very cold-bloodily figure out, is that -- what's the greater risk? Is it one out of 200 chances of dying from the surgery? But it's probably greater than one out of 200 risks of dying early from all kinds of -- from heart disease or whatever if you don't if you're really grossly obese.

But you -- I would never recommend the surgery to anyone. I would recommend they seriously consider it. They consult a physician. They read up on the Internet about it, and they weigh the risks.

For a lot of people, it can be lifesaving. It can give us additional years. I think I'll probably be around longer. I'll be able to do more for the public. I'll be able to do more for my grandchildren -- I'll see them.

Whereas, if I didn't, I suspect I'll -- if I hadn't had the operation, I might not.

BEGALA: Congressman Jerry Nadler, from New York, facing this with the same clear-eyed courage and optimism as you always face our questions with. Please come back often...

NADLER: Thank you.

BEGALA: ... to CROSSFIRE. We love seeing you.

CROSSFIRE continues after a CNN "News Alert." Still ahead though, Michael Jackson didn't actually drop his son, but he clearly lost his head.

Next our "Quote of the Day" though, is in a boxing update from a guy who usually works with a guitar. His opponent this time is someone very familiar to all of you. All of that after a CNN "News Alert."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. "The Washington Post" calls Steve Earle -- quote -- "rock's most outspoken critic of President Bush in the war on terror." Needless to say, we couldn't pass up a chance to interview yet another singer- songwriter with embarassing political views.

So we taped a segment with him, which you'll see in just a few moments. We're telling you this now, because we want you to watch that segment very carefully, and see if you agree with Earle's assessment of the interview, as told to a D.C. concert audience and reported by the Washington Post. It's our "Quote of the Day."

Quote: "Tucker Carlson never laid a [blankin] glove on me."

Well, you know, Paul, this is what you get -- pulling back just a tiny bit. Steve Earle comes, seems like a nice enough guy, little sweaty, little shaky, I'm thinking, How would I feel -- no truly, how I feel if had to play -- if I had to go play in front of people I would feel out of place. So I sort of laid back a little bit. And repays with me this.

BEGALA: You know, let people judge for themselves. I was in that D.C. concert as well. I was in the audience for that. And you should consider it a compliment. He's plugging your show in front of hundreds of drunken people who didn't remember the next morning. So maybenot...

CARLSON: No! He's mocking me in front of country fans and that's the worth.

BEGALA: You know what? I am a huge Steve Earle fan. A huge country music fan. People can judge for themselves.

CARLSON: I loved his work -- his Taliban work. I think it's some of his best.

BEGALA: He -- you will see for yourself. It's a terrific song.

Well, stay close to your television. Be ready to look for glove marks. Because our interview with Steve Earle is coming up in just a little while.

Next though: Has Michael Jackson completely lost it? Do I even have to ask this question? We'll have the one person in the world with the courage who thinks the answer is no.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: By now, you've no doubt the horrible video images of Michael Jackson's outrageous stunt last week. But just in case you haven't, here they are again.

Inexplicably, Mr. Jackson held his baby boy from the Fourth Floor balcony of a Berlin hotel. At one point he was only holding the baby with one hand as the little guy squirmed high above the citizens of Berlin. The next day, Jackson apologized, saying -- quote -- "I made a terrible mistake. I got caught up in the excitement of the moment. I would never intentionally endanger the lives of my children."

Didn't help. Jackson got clobbered in the media, as he so richly deserved. London's "Daily Mirror" ran the screaming headline "Mad Bad Dad." And on this side of the pond, people are agreeing with the New York Post headline "Jacko Goes Over the Edge."

However, our next guest is not falling in with the crowd or dropping his support for the King of Pop. Joining us from New York, the inimitable Mo Rocca, correspondent for the "Daily Show" on Comedy Central.

Mo, good to see you.

MO ROCCA, "THE DAILY SHOW": Thank you having me. Thank you. I appreciate it .

CARLSON: Mo, thanks for coming on and taking the bold position.

ROCCA: Sure.

CARLSON: I'll admit I've got some concerns about Michael Jackson. Do you think they're founded?

ROCCA: Well, here's what troubles me. I don't think that we should be imposing one standard of child rearing on everyone else willie nillie.

I mean, the fact is that pop stars are non-traditional care givers. You may not choose to dangle your baby out of a window. Michael Jackson does. If Mariah Carey had a baby, who knows where she'd dangle it.

But the point is, the point is that baby is safe and sound. And that really is what matters.

BEGALA: Mo, let me read you a comment though from Mr. A. Sydney Johnson, Sydney Johnson, A period, the president and CEO of Prevent Child Abuse America. And he says this, "It is a painful reminder that even the most well intentioned among us sometimes act in ways that put children in danger of being abused of neglected."

Do you agree with Mr. Johnson that Michael Jackson was well intended when he held his baby off a balcony?

ROCCA: Well, let me explain. I've looked at a lot of different polls, and the research I have, and it's right here, ti shows that American babies are inordinantly afraid of heights, and I think what Michael Jackson is doing is he's inoculating his baby against vertigo.

BEGALA: That's a valid point. I hadn't thought of that.

CARLSON: But see -- in a vacuum, I might buy what you're saying. You make some compelling points. You are making the same case of (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

ROCCA: Oh, please.

CARLSON: ... that Al Gore is making in his new book about families. But...

ROCCA: Yes.

CARLSON: There is a history here with Michael Jackson. I'm not simply talking about the child molesting. I'm also talking -- or the allegations of child molesting -- I'm talking about the problems of course with his nose.

And I want to read you a quote from a plastic surgeon Edward Demaneske (ph) who says this, quote, "Short of wearing a prosthesis for your nose, you could take tissue from the forehead or the back of the ear to build up the area, but I don't think he wants that. It seems like he's fairly comfortable with the way he looks which is unfortunate because it's a bad reflection on all of plastic surgery."

ROCCA: Look, look Michael Jackson has made a bold choice. So many people I know complain about their nose, and they're too lazy to do anything about it. All right. And my problem with criticism of the way he looks is I think it's tinged with a certain amount of prejudice. I think that Michael Jackson needs to be judged on the content of his character, not on the bleached mocha latte light color of his skin.

I mean, for too long, for too long celebrities with bleached mocha latte light skin have been the targets of persecution.

BEGALA: That's a very important point.

Mo, the king of pop, wacko Jacko was in Berlin to receive what's called a Bambi Award.

ROCCA: Right.

BEGALA: Any idea what that is or what he did to earn such a prestigious award?

ROCCA: It is for children. It is an award on behalf of children.

Look, I think we need to step back and take I think a historical perspective. My good friend Robert Dylak (ph) has written a wonderful piece about JFK in the Atlantic Monthly. John F. Kennedy suffered so much pain through is life in large part because of the operations he had to undergo for different ailments.

Michael Jackson too has gone through five rhinoplasty operations. They're very painful, and I think we know that severe pain impairs judgment. So I'd like to think that Michael Jackson's baby dangling incident is sort of his Bay of Pigs fiasco.

OK, and we know that and we know that the Bay of Pigs was followed by the Cuban missile crisis triumph. So I'm excited. I'm actually looking forward to Michael Jackson's Cuban missile crisis resolution.

CARLSON: I'm glad you brought the political angle into this, Mo. Because as you know, for many years, Michael Jackson has been a particularly good fruitful raiser for the Democratic Party. Wondering if you're thinking he's going to be in as much demand now that he's dangled his son out the window?

ROCCA: You know, I think that -- I think that if there's anything both parties can agree on, it's the importance of family. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that in a way I was kind of moved by yesterday's scene you know, because the statistics show that American families continue to break down, and yet Michael Jackson's baby trusts him enough to allow him to dangle out a fourth floor window. And there's something I think kind of poignant about that.

BEGALA: Let me show you another picture of Michael Jackson with our first family, with America's first family, the mother and father of our current president. There they are right there. Michael Jackson with George Sr. and Barbara Bush. And in fact in that session, they confided to the king of pop that they themselves had dropped their son George on his head as a baby.

And so you see, it happens all of the time, Mo.

ROCCA: And he's the president now.

I mean, you know, look, I have a lot of problems with all of these objections. I mean, Tucker, as long as I've known you you've been a strict constructionist when it comes to the interpretation of the Constitution. You are an ardent defender of Robert Bork. Where then in the Constitution does it say that a pop icon is not allowed to dangle his baby out of a fourth floor window? I don't know where.

CARLSON: That's an excellent point. And the document is strangely silent on the whole question of pop icons.

And it's upset constitutional scholars for decades, as you know. My question to you though, Mo, as a prognosticator, where does...

ROCCA: Yes...

CARLSON: Where does Michael go from now, now that he's done the dangling? What's the next step for him?

ROCCA: Well, I -- he doesn't have much cartilage left. So I don't know if he's going to be having any more rhinoplasty done to him.

You know, I don't know. Look, all I know is we should leave no child behind, and he dangled the baby, but the baby is back in safe hands.

So you know, that's all I have to say. I mean, you know, I can only spend so much for him.

BEGALA: We're almost out of time. I'm just wondering...

ROCCA: Yes.

BEGALA: ... I'm wondering why he suppose he picked Germany for this venue. And we're almost out of time, but is there any significance to the fact that picked Berlin to dangle the...

ROCCA: Well, I don't know, but I think, I think that you know Germany has bashed America long enough, so it's time to circle the wagons around Michael and defend one of our own.

BEGALA: Very good point.

CARLSON: Amen.

Mo Rocca, our cultural correspondent, a correspondent from the "Daily Show" on Comedy Central. One of our favorite guests. Thank you.

Still ahead, your chance to fire back at us. Thousands of Canadians had done just that. But first, John Walker Lindh is safely in prison, but at least one person is still defending the Marin County Taliban. Country music star and John Walker Lindh fan Steve Earl joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: The Revolutionary War gave us "Yankee Doodle." The War of 1812 gave us "the Star-Spangled Banner." "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" came along during the Civil War. There are hummable tunes associated with just about every U.S. war, except the war on terrorism. Now, singer Steve Earle is attempting to fill that void with "John Walker's Blues." Unfortunately, it's a sympathetic take on the life of Taliban American John Walker Lindh. Who knows how well it will sell? You never know, though. So, to the tune of "John Walker's Blues," Steve Earle joins us here in the CROSSFIRE.

BEGALA: Let me begin, you got a lot of grief for this song, because it takes the first person narrative of John Walker, the American Taliban. Did Johnny Cash get a lot of grief when he sang in "Folsom Prison Blues" that "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die?" Did that make country fans around the country to shoot people in Reno for no good reason?

EARLE: Well, I didn't think for one second that this was exactly the same thing. I mean, I knew I was going to get a lot of grief. In fact, I got grief, most of it from exactly the people that I expected to. I mean...

BEGALA: Who were they and what did they say?

EARLE: "The New York Post" and the local talk radio host, who actually was my lawyer for about 30 seconds back in the '80s. And it -- you know, it was some people that I expected to react that strongly to. And you know, most everyone else has at least acknowledged, number one, that I actually have the right to write anything that I want to. And that's part of what a democracy is about. And understood that speaking when you assume a character, you're writing in the first person, you are assuming character. It doesn't really have anything to do with my views, it's lending someone else a voice.

CARLSON: Well, I mean, nobody here in Washington would contest your right to write whatever you want, and if it's a good tune I hope it's judged on basis of that rather than on the politics, but my question was, why John Walker? This kind of annoying rich kid from Marin County, of all the people you could pick?

EARLE: Because I got a 20-year-old son and I guess I reacted to it differently. When I first saw him, which was probably on CNN like everybody else did, I saw an underfed 20-year-old, you know, and I have got a 20-year-old. I have a son that's about four months younger than he is, and who looks underfed even when I feed him. So I reacted to it as a parent. I realized that he probably had parents and that they were probably sick.

BEGALA: In fact, our president, it's interesting you say that, that's how he reacted at first. President Bush's first comments about this where he said, "looks like a troubled young man," and I suspect his kids, his girls are right about that same age, and maybe he too first began looking at this as a dad first. And law enforcement had to do its job, but are you familiar -- do you ever read the Eudora Welty (ph) short story about the man who murdered Medgar Evers? She wrote in his first person. And it is one of the most chilling stories I've ever read. She wasn't trying to praise the man who murdered Medgar Evers like a dog, but by taking his voice, it gave us an enormous insight into the kind of person (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

EARLE: Yeah, I mean, I don't condone what John Walker Lindh did, because I'm sort of the older I get, I don't even hunt anymore, I occasionally humiliate a fish before I put it back in the water is about as violent as I get, and I have a problem with anybody who takes up arms against anybody for anything, and for any reason, and especially when it's supposed to be for spiritual reasons. You know, jihad and crusade are words in different languages that mean the same thing.

CARLSON: But you say you have a problem with people that take up arms -- in your liner notes, I think, in this album, you talk about who some of the real American heroes and patriots are, in your opinion. Here are some of the names you list -- John Reed, Emma Goldman, Abby Hoffman, Bobby Seal, Malcolm X. Now, whatever else they were, leftist of course, but apart from that, these are all people who espoused to one degree or another violence.

EARLE: Well, I mean...

CARLSON: Every one of them.

EARLE: Yeah, I think most of them, but I think at one period or another, is the key term here. I know -- you know, I probably -- I grew up during the Vietnam War and I'm a product of that. I grew up with that war on television, and it went on for so long that I actually was old enough to be drafted before it was over with, and I don't remember a time that I didn't hear about it.

And so I come from that background, and I'm not an apologetic lefty, but I don't know think any of that has anything to do with why I wrote this song. This is strictly a matter of there are plenty of people vilifying John Walker Lindh. And I felt, I've done it before, I've done it with other characters and other songs, some fictitious, some people that actually lived. And I felt like it was necessary because no one else was going to write this song but me.

BEGALA: That's true. You wrote a song called "Billy Austin" about a murder, which is another terrific song, I'm a big fan as you can tell. You wrote a song called "Jonathan's Song," not about a fictitious character.

EARLE: That was more of me processing that I witnessed. I witnessed an execution in Texas a few years back and that was really more me processing that. I didn't mean to put myself in that position. There were a lot of guys on death row that I wrote to -- a lot of guys in prison, if they wrote me I would write them back.

And this guy asked me to witness his execution. I didn't really know how to say no. I spent a lot of time trying to avoid ending up in this. And it's no secret I'm opposed to the death penalty that's where my major activism. It's where I do most of the work outside of my day job that I do.

It was a pretty horrific thing and it took me a long time to process it. But that was the same thing. I was writing -- Jon was guilty, innocent guys to don't write me for some reason and my opposition of the death penalty comes from -- it's a spiritual -- I'm opposed to it politically. But also, if this is democracy, if the government kills somebody, then I'm killing somebody. And I object to the damage that does to my spirit. It really that is basic for me.

BEGALA: Steve Earle, the album is "Jerusalem." Congratulations. I love it terrific album. Great effort. Thank you for joining us.

CARLSON: Thank you.

BEGALA: When we come back, it is your turn to "Fireback" at us and boy, do you. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, the show that was interactive before interactive was cool. Cool now.

In our "Fireback" segment Reece Fuller from Jonesboro, Georgia writes, "Tucker, you need Liddy's mustache to go with that wig you're wearing."

BEGALA: Ooh.

CARLSON: That's a good point. Next time up at the costume store I'm going to pick one up a mustache.

BEGALA: You'd do the mustache with the wig?

CARLSON: Next time when I get a new, yes I'll get a mustache.

BEGALA: You think I need a wig?

CARLSON: Yes. And chest rug, too.

BEGALA: Nancy Groft -- the chest rug was an image I didn't need, Tucker. When I close my eyes to sleep tonight...

CARLSON: You know it's a joke, Paul, but people will believe it.

BEGALA: Nancy Groft in Glendora, New Jersey writes, "G. Gordon Liddy says America's changed. i guess so. Only in America could a convicted felon have a successful career as a right-wing pundit."

Well, I guess that's only in America could a convicted drunk driver become president of the United States, so God bless America with land of the second chance. I'm all for it.

CARLSON: You know there's thinly veiled hostility toward America in that e-mail. Why am I not surprised?

Ramona Ojeda from Carmichael, California writes, "I think it's just great that Representative Jerrold Nadler is doing something about his weight! You go, Jerrold! We're rooting for him out here in California."

That's sweet. You know, there are no fat members of the California delegation.

BEGALA: That is right?

CARLSON: They take that stuff really seriously. They've been worried about Jerry Nadler out there for a long time.

BEGALA: No, I admire, took drastic steps for a drastic problem.

Andrew Daly (ph) in Fredericktown, New Brunswick -- no, wait Martin Carswell jumping over here to London, Ontario: "Keep up the good work USA, unfortunately we have spineless jelly fish up here for government but 98 percent of us love you guys. Go kick some terrorist butt!"

Gee, Martin, thanks a lot, I think. I'm not entirely sure why...

CARLSON: Yes, let's all move -- there are good Canadians. When I mock Canada do I in loving, constructive way.

BEGALA: Because you hate them.

CARLSON: No, I do I it out of love, you can be better than you are, Canada. Rise up.

Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Mike McCuhe (ph), I'm from Swansboro (ph), North Carolina. My question's for Paul. Bill Clinton did a lot of campaigning for Democrats this is past election, nearly all lost. My question is will Alandro campaign in Louisiana win when Bill Clinton offers to help?

BEGALA: First off that's (UNINTELLIGIBLE). The fact he went there didn't mean they lost, if he'd have been on ballot he'd have beaten George W. Bush like a bad piece of meat in 2000. He'd be in his third term like right now which we should have. The only reason we have 22nd Amendment is the right-wing Republicans didn't want another FDR.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: That darn Constitution, it's in the way of our power.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... limits our right to pick who ever we want for our president.

CARLSON: That darn constitution.

BEGALA: Do you I think Bush would have beaten Clinton?

CARLSON: I think it's unconstitutional, and for me that's enough.

BEGALA: Don't dodge the question.

CARLSON: Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Erica Morgan (ph), I'm from Charleston, South Carolina. My question is if the economy continues do do poorly, do you think Bush will be re-elected in 2004? And if so why?

CARLSON: Everybody, Democrats and Republicans, you hope Democrats want the economy to do better, but unseemliness with which Democrats try to tie poor economy with the president didn't work because it's not possible to connect Bush to the souring economy. It -- the argument never made sense. They blame the head of the SEC, huh?

BEGALA: Why enact Bush's economic policy if it has no effect on economy? Congress enacted policy, the economy went in the crapper. we ought to get a new president and new economic policy and I think we will in 2004.

CARLSON: The economy was on it's way down before.

BEGALA: Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Gary Segal (ph) from Montgomery Village, Maryland. I'm about the same age as G. Gordon Liddy, and I remember things way back when. Tell me, for each of you, do you think that John Ashcroft is the most serious threat to American freedom since Senator McCarthy?

BEGALA: You know I've thought about that question. No. Ashcroft, he was not the best person for the job. I know the president wanted a conservative Republican, but there are conserve Republicans who are not insane.

Ashcroft spent thousand of your dollars to hang a burqa over a statue in the Justice Department that's been there for 50 years because it has a naked breast. Reports he doesn't want calico cats at his events because he thinks they carry the spirit of Satan. Ashcroft is unfit to be attorney general. We ought to get rid of him.

CARLSON: That kind of over the top hyperbole is self discrediting. He's the greatest threat since Joe McCarthy, he's insane, he's afraid of witches. You may disagree with the guy politically, doesn't mean he's evil. Maybe that's a lesson Democrats ought to learn because the public doesn't care for it when you dismiss all of your enemies as evil.

BEGALA: Which is exactly what the right did to our attorney general, the Clinton administration, Janet Reno. John Ashcroft is not half the woman that Janet Reno was. Bring back Janet. God bless Janet.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again Monday for yet more CROSSFIRE. You can't wait and neither can we.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now. Have a great weekend.

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