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CNN Crossfire

Lott Gives Another Apology; Kissinger Latest Bush Appointee to Quit

Aired December 14, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.




ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: he has got a lot to explain and he's trying again.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MAJORITY LEADER: It was a lighthearted affair, but my choice of words were totally unacceptable and insensitive, and I apologize for that.


(END VIDEO CLIP)


ANNOUNCER: Will it be enough? While Lott hangs in, Henry Kissinger wants out. The latest high-profile departure for the Bush camp. Comings and goings, who's really running things?


And live from New York it's Al Gore. We'll have advice for the budding host from late night comedy veterans.


Ahead on CROSSFIRE.


From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.


(APPLAUSE)


TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight: another high-profile departure through the revolving door at the White House. Who's in and who's out in the Bush administration?


Then, everything Al Gore needs to know for his gig hosting "Saturday Night Live" this weekend. That ought to be appalling. But first, live from Washington, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."


Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott apologized yet again, this time even more profusely, for his remarks praising Strom Thurmond's 1948 segregationist presidential bid. Lott made his strongest statements yet repudiating segregation, calling it wrong and immoral. He also denied being a racist and said he won't resign his post over something he is not.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


LOTT: I've asked and I'm asking for forbearance and forgiveness as I continue to learn from my own mistakes and as I continue to grow and get older. But as you get older, you hopefully grow in your views and acceptance of everybody, both as a person and certainly as a leader.


(END VIDEO CLIP)


CARLSON: Today's press conference was Lott's fourth or fifth apology, depending on how you count them. Aides said if this attempt doesn't mollify critics, Mr. Lott will take the next step, the Buddhist monk approach: set himself ablaze in public forum.


PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: The problem is we don't know whether we take him at his word last week, when he said he pined for the days of segregation, or this week now, when he says segregation is evil. Is he a man of his most recent word? I don't know.


CARLSON: Actually, this is a chance he had to explain himself. Whereas, the dumb remarks he made at Strom thurmond's 100th birthday were off the cuff and stupid, here you really heard what he thinks. So I am not excusing what he said, but I think we can take him at this word.


BEGALA: Well, how about you guys in the audience? Who here thinks he ought to go, that you're not buying the serial apologies out of Trent Lott?


(APPLAUSE)


CARLSON: Well, that's in then. The Senate has spoken. He's out of there.


BEGALA: In the another one bites the dust department, Henry Kissinger has resigned as chairman of the commission investigating 9/11. Dr. Kissinger had refused to disclose his long list of corporate clients, reported to include such oil giants as Exxon Mobile and Arco. The Bush White House claimed that Dr. Kissinger could investigate the attacks without disclosing such possible conflicts of interest. But the incoming Republican chairman of the ethics committee, Pat Roberts of Kansas, insisted that Kissinger file financial disclosure reports, which Senator Roberts claims are required by law.


Now George W. Bush, who bitterly opposed creating this independent commission in the first place, now faces the task of finding some one else who is willing to torpedo it for him. The short list is rumored to include: Katherine Harris, Mr. Magoo and Barney the White House dog. My money is on Barney. He's the only one I trust.


CARLSON: So this means that Dr. Kissinger is going to go back to lobbying for the big cigarette companies. I'm sorry, that was former Maine Senator George Mitchell, Democrat, who left early this week because he didn't want to give up the fees he gets from big tobacco.


BEGALA: The story, though, goes to Bush. Who's he going to put in charge of torpedoing this now?


CARLSON: I don't think he wants to torpedo it.


BEGALA: Really?


CARLSON: I actually was never a huge fan of the Kissinger idea, but he'll get someone good.


Al Gore claims he would have handled the economy better than George W. Bush has. Of course, it's unlikely we will ever know for sure. But we do know something about how Mr. Gore handles money. Just ask the people who work for him.


According to "Congress Daily," Gore was late paying his staff for most of the last year. Seven out of eight Gore employees did not receive any pay at all for up to two months at a time. It wasn't, of course, that Mr. Gore couldn't afford to pay the peons who work for him, Gore is rich, raking in untold thousands from big business. Earlier this year, he purchased a $2.3 million House next to a restricted country club in an exclusive part of Nashville Tennessee.


It's simply that Mr. Gore didn't feel like paying his staff. Instead, he spent the money on expensive travel promoting himself. And this is not an opinion, it's a fact found in a federal disclosure form. And it tells you all you need to know about Mr. Gore's devotion to the little guy.


BEGALA: You know, I love when you go after Gore personally. It tells me that that's the one you fear the most.


CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) his staff.


BEGALA: You don't want Al Gore to take on George W. because you know he got more votes than Bush did the last time.


CARLSON: You know that is not true. But truly, don't you think it's a bit much for a rich guy not to pay his staff?


BEGALA: As a former staffer, I'm always for staffers always getting paid.


CARLSON: Me too.


BEGALA: Well, the embattled Cardinal Bernard Law -- that phrase has sort of become a media clich lately; it sort of rolls off the tongue, just like oil-rich Kuwait, tech-heavy Nasdaq or dumb-ass Trent Lott. Well, but the battle over Cardinal Law is over. Law has surrendered.


From Rome today comes words that Pope John Paul II has accepted the resignation of Cardinal Law as the archbishop of Boston. Law had been accused of allowing priests to continue serving after repeated allegations of sex abuse by those priests against children. Cardinal Law had a stalwart defender, though, in President Bush, who, back in March called Law, "a man of integrity," and expressed confidence in Law's ability to handle the crisis.


No word yet on what Law will do next. A spokesman for the Senate Republican Caucus says they're interested in recruiting Cardinal Law to serve as leader of the Senate Republicans. Couldn't do any worse than Lott.


CARLSON: I can't wait. Next time there is a volcano in, say, Madagascar, I can't wait to see how you tie that to the Bush administration. Bush is a Methodist. He shouldn't have weighed in on this. He probably doesn't know much about the Catholic Church. But to blame him for Law, come on.


BEGALA: I don't blame him, but he embraced him and said he had total confidence in him.


CARLSON: No he didn't embrace him.


BEGALA: Yes he did. He called him a man of integrity. He's not a man of integrity.


CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) religious leader, and the president unfortunately does that a little too much, as we have seen right after 9/11. But still, it was in good faith.


In news from the frozen north tonight, Canada's justice minister has announced plans to decriminalize the use of marijuana. The news came as the Canadian parliament released a new report reaching much the same conclusion: Canadians who possess up to an ounce of marijuana, the report says, should be allowed to smoke it in peace without being arrested.


American officials say they're appalled by the development, which, they say, is premature, unwise and will almost certainly lead to an increase in international drug trafficking. Relax, say the Canadians, after posing for several long moments to gather their thoughts. The new policy is an acknowledgement that, if you have to live in Canada, it probably helps to smoke a little dope.


BEGALA: On this one, I'm with the Bush administration. The last thing -- it's not my country, but the last thing North America needs is more readily available pot. I don't like it. I don't think it is a good idea.


CARLSON: It depends on how good it is. Actually, I'm sort of on the Canadian side, and I feel for them. Look, you're living in an igloo, OK, and the dog team is sick. Not a lot to do. I understand.


BEGALA: They've got beer. Canadian beer is great. They should drink beer.


CARLSON: It's overrated.


BEGALA: My fellow North Americans in Canada, drink beer.


Well, bad news for the Bush White House is great news for two little girls. Mary Matalin, the former co-host of this program, is leaving the Bush White House. Ms. Matalin has been counselor to Vice President Dick Cheney and a key advisor to President Bush. She played an important role in steadying the nation after the attacks of September 11. And, as one of the very best political strategists in the business, Mary deserves kudos for helping her party, the Republicans, score their electoral triumph back in November.


She's leaving the White House to devote more time to two of the best and most beautiful girls in the world, Mattie (ph) and Emerson (ph) Carville. While some White House aides leave under a cloud, our friend Mary departs under a halo. Good luck. God bless Mary Matalin.


CARLSON: Amen. And she is also, we should note, the wife of our friend and colleague James Carville, who I think she will get under a little tighter control now that she's running the House more often. Good for her. And we can have her on CROSSFIRE. I can't wait.


BEGALA: Aside from her appalling taste in men, everything about Mary is great. Well, her taste in politicians is not so great either. But, those two -- I am glad to see her back home with the girls.


CARLSON: Amen.


BEGALA: Up next: another mea culpa from Trent Lott for his outrageous remarks. Will this one stick and will it be enough to end the calls for his resignation as Senate Republican leader?


And Al Gore's next gig. He's going to host "Saturday Night Live." "The Daily Show's" Mo Rocca will offer some advice coming up.


(APPLAUSE)


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


(APPLAUSE)


CARLSON: Welcome back. Trent Lott, Henry Kissinger, Al Gore, Cardinal Law, it sounds like a sitcom. But no, it's news. It's been a big week for that.


Here to help us make sense of all of it is Vic Fazio, a Democrat, former member of Congress from California. Joining him, Bay Buchanan, a conservative strategist, president of The American Cause.


(APPLAUSE)


BEGALA: Bay, before you walked out, we asked our audience, they weren't buying it, the Lott press conference today. They weren't buying the apologies. What did you make of it?


BAY BUCHANAN, CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST: I think the apology was totally acceptable. I think that Senator Lott has done a fine job of trying -- of explaining himself and apologizing. He recognizes a mistake that he clearly made, and everybody agrees that it was a terrible mistake, the suggestion that his remark made. But that's yesterday now, Tucker.


I think he certainly explained to the American people that he did not intend that. That was not what he intended. And that he, indeed, does not feel those things in his heart. In which case, he is certainly qualified to be the leader of the party. But that decision will be up to the Republicans.


CARLSON: Mr. Fazio, will -- is he going to hold on.


VIC FAZIO, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, you know it really will depend on whether any one emerges from the pack in the Senate. If Don Nichols or Chuck Hagel or Bill First or even Mitch McConnell decide that it's time for him to go, then he's really got an issue to deal with. But where are the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Where are the Bennetts (ph), where are the Crystals (ph) today? Are they continuing to advocate his removal?


The Kemp wing of the Republican Party is livid. And that's why the president went so strongly public yesterday. It's also, I'm sure, the president's effort to staunch the bleeding and to put an end to it. Because I don't believe he is calling for Lott's resignation. Obviously, if he were to change his opinion, if he thought the burden on the Republican Party would be too great and he decided to make a move, I think he would find a way to upset Senator Lott's chances of staying power.


BUCHANAN: You know, Congressman, you know what is unfortunate? It's not just the Democrats, as has been pointed out, there are some conservatives who have jumped on this bandwagon. And I believe they do so for their own agenda.


You know I have not been a supporter of Trent Lott many times. I prefer Don Nichols. I'm more conservative than Trent Lott. And so -- but when you look at exactly what we have here, we have a man that clearly made a mistake. Everybody who has worked with him, everybody who is close to him, anyone who has been associated with him has clearly said that the man doesn't have a racist bone in his body.


It clearly was a mistake. He made a dumb mistake, but he did not in any way suggest that it was something worse than that. And for them to kind of put it on the bandwagon, the guy is hurt, he made a mistake, and so now let's all jump on the bandwagon and try to get him while he is down I think it's an outrageous -- I think the conservatives...


FAZIO: The problem, Bay, is there is a pattern here. There's a pattern that goes back a long way. And if you look a record comparison between Strom Thurmond and Trent Lott, you see that Strom gravitated much more quickly to the center from his position in 1948.


He voted for Martin Luther King's birthday, he voted to extend the voting rights act of 1981. And Trent Lott didn't. So as you begin to see a pattern over time, you begin to ask questions about whether this is just more of the same apology for the same mistake.


BEGALA: In fact, let's take a look at the record, Bay. This is just some of the lowlights, I would call them. Others would agree with these votes -- every one of them, I'm sure.


In 1980, Trent Lott got out and endorsed Strom Thurmond's '48 candidacy in eerily similar words to those he used last week and said the country would have been better if we had followed Thurmond's candidacy and supported it. In 1981 he filed a brief with the Supreme Court, where he claimed racial discrimination does not always violate public policy.


In 1984, he said the spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the 1984 GOP platform, the party of Lincoln. In '92 he went to a very controversial group, the Conservative Citizens Council, which some people have alleged to be white supremacists and told them they stand for the right principles. In 1998, he told a magazine, "Sometimes I feel closer to Jefferson Davis than any other man in America."


And just last week again said that we would be better off, we wouldn't have had all these problems if we had had a segregationist president instead of Harry Truman. Now that is a pattern. That is a record.


BUCHANAN: You know, as I said again, the remark last week, in no way did he intend that. It was a comment directly to an individual who was having his 100th birthday. And I'm going to tell you, if everybody who told my brother Pat we'd be better off if you were president, you should be president, he would be president. It's that simple.


They run into somebody who ran for president, and it's a comment you make. It wasn't intended to be a national comment. He's made it many times before.


But the issue here is something both the congressman and you were pointing out. Is he's done things in the past. But he has been the majority leader in the past, and I didn't hear you, and I didn't hear you saying, my golly, why is the man the leader of this party, when all of these things have taken place?


The man is not racist. None of those things that he did suggest he is. And what I suggest is happening here is that, the Democrats, who got whooped badly by this president and his party a month ago, are out there, they're angry, they see a little blood in the water, they're circling, and they're going to use the only thing they have that works any more they feel, and I believe that no longer works, and that's the race card.


Because you have no message whatsoever. Let's get the race card out and go immediately after...


CARLSON: I want to respond to this. I want to throw out -- just to put this whole debate in some perspective -- text of a letter that Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, a prominent Democrat, the longest serving Democrat in the United States Senate, wrote some years ago about integrating the military.


"I shall never submit to fight beneath that banner with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times and see old glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, then to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."


Now, it's hard to imagine anything uglier than that. That was some time ago, and he's apologized for it profusely. And that's the point. Just as Mr. Lott apologized for comments no where near that ugly. Democrats have taken Mr. Byrd at his word, why not take Mr. Lott at his?


FAZIO: Well, you know I don't think it's a question of taking somebody at their word. I think it's really a question of looking at where the modern Republican Party has come from. If you look at who has been really leading the party since the early '90s, Georgia, Texas, at best, border states, like Missouri and Oklahoma. Men who have been elected to Congress with at least an element of their constituency not yet settled on the civil rights movement.


I think you saw in Georgia, for example, in this election, an increase in white male turnout of nine percent over the last election. Many people think it had a lot to do with the fight over the confederate battle flag in that state. Where the governor, with the business community pushing him, attempted to mollify and diffuse this issue.


CARLSON: Wait, Mr. Fazio. It's still legal -- just for the record -- for white men to come out and vote. I don't know if you know that.


FAZIO: Absolutely. I'm not pointing out that it is illegal.


CARLSON: But you are implying that they're racist is what you're doing.


FAZIO: No, Tucker, I'm saying they went because this is still an issue that stimulates them. This is still an issue that brings them out of the woodwork. These were not people who had voted consistently. They were responding to a stimulus.


We saw this week Clarence Thomas sitting on the Supreme Court questioning in the cross burning case in Virginia whether or not this was a symbol of free speech or a symbol of oppression and violence and degradation. The southern political scene is still not yet finished with all of the follow-on to the Civil War. These are still issues that galvanize voters left and right. And we need to bring an end to it.


BUCHANAN: You know, you suggest that the reason that they got out there is somehow because of some underlying, latent, racism on their part.


FAZIO: No I'm not saying that.


BUCHANAN: No, no. But you overlooked the fact that there has been an assault with that flag on their heritage. And it's black and white, southerners alike, who feel the assault. And when you take them on and their family on, they come out and respond. And that is a legitimate issue. That has nothing to do with race.


BEGALA: But Bay, it was an assault on their heritage, their racist heritage. The confederate battle flag was placed on the Georgia flag 21 months after Brown versus Board of Education to symbolize massive resistance to racial equality. It was one of the darkest days in the history of a great state.


Governor Barnes changed that with a lot of help, as Vic pointed out, from the business community. That is the piece, that part of their heritage that was under attack. The one that was a part of that heritage that was racist.


BUCHANAN: You know what the problem here is? You all see it only your way. You will not accept the fact that it is very legitimate. That is a battle flag. That confederate flag is what went over the battles.


BEGALA: I actually read the debates from '56. I worked for Governor Miller, when he tried to change that flag, Bay.


BUCHANAN: You can read anything you want, but I know...


BEGALA: They said let's put this on as a symbol of our massive resistance to integration. That's why they did it. It's in the record.


BUCHANAN: Let me ask you both, do you believe that Trent Lott is racist?


FAZIO: I don't believe that Trent Lott is a racist. But I think he comes from a segregationist past. You know he is a product of his environment.


BUCHANAN: Unbelievable.


FAZIO: Both Ole Miss (ph) and subsequently, and I think he does...


BUCHANAN: Is it in his blood, Congressman? Are we suggesting that if you're a southern Republican...


FAZIO: It's an experience that he brought from his youth. And I think it's easy for him to forget where he thinks he should be these days and sort of speak as he does occasionally off the cuff in a way that brings these sorts of feelings out.


BUCHANAN: It's either in his heart or it's not -- of course it's not. It was a mistake. And you are not willing to acknowledge that.


CARLSON: Congressman, look, like you, I'm from California, and debates over battle flags and segregation, I'm sure as they do to you, seem a little alien to me. But we agree on this one thing, that this kind of controversy over race is ugly, at best. And probably ought not to be in politics.


FAZIO: It certainly is.


CARLSON: I'm struck by the fact that in my short lifetime it's Democrats invariably who bring it to the floor. I'm going to give you one among many examples.


FAZIO: He brought this to the floor himself.


CARLSON: This is it: in this election, Julius Henson, who was a political consultant working for Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, had this to say about her opponent, who is now the governor of Maryland, "Bobby Erlich is a Nazi," he said. "His record his horrible, atrocious. In Prince George's County, we'll define him as the Nazi that he is. Once we do that, I think people will vote for Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. He should be running in Germany of 1942, not Maryland in 2002."


This its not an aberration. It is ridiculous. I agree with that. It is ridiculous.


FAZIO: In fact, it's the Bob Ehrlichs who are trying to broaden the base of the Republican Party who are going to pay a price for what's just occurred in the last week.


CARLSON: Wait a second. This is is...


(CROSSTALK)


BEGALA: You don't think that an obscure, wholly unknown guy that Tucker dredged out of a swamp in Maryland is equal to Trent Lott, the Republican leader of the United States Senate, do you?


BUCHANAN: No. I'll tell you what I do believe, though. I believe that there is a group of people in this country, many of our leaders, who will not give up the race card because that is their livelihood. Democrats and Black Caucus people. And, do you know what? There is nothing we can do as Republicans that will ever appease them, ever bring them to the point where they say, "you know, this is -- these people are for equal rights, they're with us in heart and soul and effort. They may disagree with us on reparations, they may disagree with us on affirmative action, but there is nothing in them that would suggest they have any latent racist tendencies."


BEGALA: Except when they say we would have been better off with a segregationist president than Harry Truman, which their leader said last week.


BUCHANAN: Do you believe he is a racist? Do you believe he's a racist.


BEGALA: I can't see in another man's heart, but I believe his local paper is right when they say...


BUCHANAN: You do not, and you are spinning this in attempting to destroy his reputation.


BEGALA: Excuse me. I believe his local paper is right when they say -- no, no, I have no idea if he is. I don't even know the man. His local paper...


BUCHANAN: You know he is not.


BEGALA: ... who has covered hem for 30 years said he believed what he said when he said that Strom Thurmond would have been a better president than Harry Truman. That's what the Pascagoula...


CARLSON: I think the argument we're having here is one about politics. We all agree we can't know Trent Lott's heart. But the fact is -- and Bay Buchanan put it quite well -- is that the black vote is critical to Democrats. And inflaming a vote, whether it's a black vote, a white vote or any vote, is one of the keys to turnout. And Democrats profit when black voters are afraid the Republicans are racist.


FAZIO: The Republicans profit when white voters in the south, middle class, lower middle class, working class, whatever you want to call them, feel that they're being impinged upon by integration, by changing the way in which kids get into the university. You fill in the blank. So the race card can be played on both sides.


BEGALA: Hang on just a second. I know Tucker and I, we will be right back. After the break, we're going to discuss whether Henry Kissinger should have left that independent 9/11 panel. Stay with us.


(APPLAUSE)


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are still rehashing the Trent Lott controversy. And later we'll talk about the changing of the guard at the Bush White House in the economic team and in other areas.


We are joined by Vic Fazio, a Democrat from California, former member of the Congress, and by Bay Buchanan, leading Republican strategist. Thank you all for staying through the break.


CARLSON: Congressman, you said at the very beginning -- and I'm glad you did -- that there were a lot of Republican conservatives, anyway, who don't necessarily want Trent Lott to remain as majority leader. Paul Begala was honest enough last night to admit that a lot of Democrats want him to remain because they want to use this issue in 2004. Do you think that is true?


FAZIO: Well, we're not really in this game. This is a Republican decision. And you can spin it either way, you know?


Some people would say better off to have him there, he's wounded. Others would say, no, on principle he has to go. The Republicans will decide whether he has become a liability.


But let me make this point. Mitch McConnell will come out of this in a much stronger position -- the whip, the number two man in the Senate. Because I do think, assuming he is retained, and I believe he will be, Trent Lott has been wounded. Another person who I think is a victim of this maybe, Judge Pickering (ph), who wanted to make one more run at the Republican majority.


I'm not sure the Republican Party wants to pursue this. Judge Pickering (ph), Trent Lott are really one of a kind and come from the same place in Mississippi and have political allies for a long, long time. So it would be interesting to see how this all plays out. I don't think we know the end of it yet.


BUCHANAN: Congressman, what do you mean one of a kind?


BEGALA: Bay, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but -- there is a little breaking news out of the White House. Our president, through his spokesman Ari Fleischer, once again reiterated his support for Senator Lott and said, again, that he should continue as the Republican leader.


Now my question is, isn't the president trying to have it both ways? He began by saying he supports him unquestionably a week ago. Then he strongly attacked what Lott had said. And in today's newspaper, one of his aides says Bush never really liked him. Now, in the last five minutes, he says he should stay on. He is polling this, isn't he, Bay? He'd doing this by polls, not principle.


BUCHANAN: They don't do anything in the White House without a poll or two, I don't think. Eat breakfast without a poll. The key here is I think what the president did was unfortunate. Clearly, it was politically a popular thing to do. It will probably help him in the polls.


He saw an opportunity whether they polled it or not, and he used it. But he used an opportunity at the expense of someone who has been carrying his water on the hill. And whether he liked the fellow or not, we all know that Trent Lott has done his work for him, for the president, on the hill.


So he, instead of putting friendship first in a time when he really didn't need to make a political statement on this issue, nobody is accusing the president of anything here, he used this opportunity at the expense of a friend. Who is the individual who spoke, who rebuked him? It was the president. Who is the individual who supports him? It was the president's spokesperson, not the president. That's a difference.


BEGALA: That's interesting. Very wise.


CARLSON: Congressman, we reported earlier in the show that federal disclosure documents out recently show that Al Gore, former vice president, you may have heard of him, didn't pay his staff for months on end simply because he just didn't feel like paying it, I guess. He doesn't really have a lot of moral authority to lecture anyone else on how to handle money, does he, a? And, B, the fact that he can't raise money is a sign that he can't be elected again.


FAZIO: Well, I'm not sure that he's buckled down to the task of raising money fully, because I don't think he's yet decided whether he's running. I know one thing, I certainly want my former staff people going around town complaining about not having been paid. But I don't think there's much to glean from this story. I mean, if, in fact, the vice president decides to make a full-fledge run for president, I'm sure he will not only raise plenty of money but pay his bills.


Where he'll come out in the long run, I don't know. I just don't know, because...


(CROSSTALK)


FAZIO: Because the folks out there in the Democratic party believe he was the winner and it was taken away from him. He has a tremendous amount of support among just plain voting Democrats.


CARLSON: But isn't that the reason he won't run again? Because if he doesn't run again, he will be this sort of poignant footnote. If he runs again and loses, inevitably he'll be Mike Dukakis.


FAZIO: Well I don't think anybody really knows at this point. We've all learned that it's too early even now to decide how this next election will play out.


But there are going to be a lot of other people in this race. And it seems to me that the political leadership in the party, both contributing political operatives, et cetera, are looking for somebody else.


BEGALA: Our president now is looking for somebody else to chair the 9/11 panel. We mentioned this a moment ago. Henry Kissinger, someone deeply distrusted by both the left and the right, probably for good reason has stepped aside from running it.


I think Bush put Kissinger in there because he wanted to torpedo it. Don't you think he should appoint somebody like Rudy Giuliani. Republican, of course, but highly principled and very able guy.


BUCHANAN: You are an interesting, person, Paul. Just a few moments ago you said you don't know what's in the heart of people. And yet you seem, too, on certain occasions in the heart of the president that he it there to torpedo it.


Now, obviously...


BEGALA: He's opposed that legislation for nine months.


BUCHANAN: Obviously you don't know what was in the heart of the president.


CARLSON: Good point, Bay.


BEGALA: I don't know what's in his heart. I know what's in his record. He opposed the commission and now he's trying to undermine it.


BUCHANAN: But, no -- you cannot jump -- you cannot jump to the conclusion that then he wanted to undermine it. You know, his is a report that's going to come out, a study that will come out. It's not going to be I don't think anything the president needs to be ashamed of. I think there's enough -- there's already been out there that points to the fact that the intelligence community was asleep at the wheel, all right?


And what has to be done is we have to move ahead and get ourselves first-class intelligence operation.


CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are out of time.


BUCHANAN: Out of time.


CARLSON: But we hope you will both come back. Bay Buchanan, Vic Fazio, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.


White House issues a new statement about Trent Lott. Connie Chung has all the details next in the CNN "News Alert."


And then, Al Gore on "Saturday Night Live." It's not a parody. It will happen. Let's hope than he was a candidate.


And then, our "Quote of the Day" from a man who's out of a job, but may not be out of trouble. We'll be right back.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


(NEWS ALERT)


BEGALA: Still ahead, Al Gore hosting "Saturday Night Live." We'll get some helpful hints for him compliments of "The Daily Show's" Mo Rocca.


And a "Quote of the Day," some say a quote that came a little too late. Stay with us.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now to reveal who said our "Quote of the Day."


For almost two decades, this man led the faithful of the Archdiocese of Boston. He apparently didn't provide the kind of leadership needed to deal with the alleged molestation of children by priests. Today, POPE JOHN PAUL II accepted Cardinal Bernard Law's resignation as the Archbishop of Boston. In a statement, Law said -- quote -- "To all those who have suffered from my shortcomings and mistakes, I both apologize and from them, beg forgiveness."


CARLSON: Five words, Paul: tell it to the prosecutor. Practicing the sentencing speech. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy. I don't know my way on this sort of thing. Not my business. But, it's everybody's business when the law is broken. Not to be self righteous. This is a time when it's impossible to be self righteous. It's so outrageous.


BEGALA: I agree. I believe in forgiveness and he's entitled to forgiveness. But he also has to face the bar of justice. And I don't think he's done that yet. This is a tragic story but I'm glad that the Pope accepted the resignation. I suspect the Pope gave him a papal shove.


CARLSON: Suspect. Having watched CROSSFIRE, an avid viewer of CROSSFIRE he is.


BEGALA: Yes, the Pope watches every night. Certainly.


CARLSON: E-mails a lot, too. Coming up in "Fireback" one viewer raises important questions about the relationship between Batman and Robin.


And next, "The Daily Show's" Mo Rocca joins us with some helpful hints for Al Gore as he hosts "Saturday Night Live." He in desperate need of them. He'll get them. We'll be right back.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Tomorrow on "Saturday Night Live" fans across the country will be treated to an increasingly familiar sight, a host of "SNL" from the world of politics. This time it's Al Gore.


Although he's appeared on the show before this will be Mr. Gore's first time hosting. Here to give the once and possibly future presidential candidate helpful hints, "Daily Show" correspondent Mo Rocca. He is also live from New York. Hey, Mo.


CARLSON: Hey, Mo.


MO ROCCA, "DAILY SHOW": Hi. How are you?


BEGALA: Need some help?


ROCCA: Oh, no. I'm just wrapping a gift for my nephew Hector. He's going to be really excited. Go ahead.


CARLSON: He'll love it. Boy, it's -- well, I'm not even going to go there.


BEGALA: Is Hector watching CROSSFIRE tonight? He's probably watching isn't he, Mo?


ROCCA: He thinks Santa Claus exists. So I don't want him to watch us. But my niece Nichelle (ph) really wants a little Gund Bob Novak. Do you have that? Like a little stuffed bob Novak?


CARLSON: Oh the little plush toy? Yes, I'll give you the toll-free number after the show. You can get one.


You know who is watching, Mo, I know for a fact is Al Gore. Waiting for instructions, advice and tips from you about what to do on "Saturday Night Live," tomorrow. What should he do?


ROCCA: The main thing is that people are going to be looking for new characters. His tried-and-true characters all have been very successful. The little white lie guy, earth tone guy, heavy sigh guy from the debates was a really big hit.


But I think he needs to try something new. We saw that a little with bloated, bearded, recluse guy. But, I just think, you know, and the truth of the matter as we know he was bested in the election by George Bush's English as a second language guy, which is an amazing character. It's great.


BEGALA: You mentioned earth tone guy, Mo. What should he wear? I know you're a fashion plate, we can all see that. What should Al Gore wear?


ROCCA: Oh well, thank you, God, you're making me blush. I think he should wear -- I think he should wear earth tones. I think he should show that he has a sense of humor. Yes, that's my -- my opinion on it.


CARLSON: Speaking of humor, he has to start the show, guest hosts do with a monologue. What should he say?


ROCCA: I think what he might want to do is read from his new book "Joined At The Heart" I think. Because that's a story that really has to be told. I mean it's sort of like "The Jungle" of our generation. It's pretty sensational stuff. So, I -- that's what I would recommend from him.


BEGALA: Do you suppose he should announce his candidacy on "Saturday Night Live?" Is that a good venue...


ROCCA: It's not -- when you look at past hosts like George McGovern and Steve Forbes it's probably not best to announce your candidacy there because careers tend to go nowhere.


But I do think if he gets an offer to -- to spin off a movie from one of his characters he should be very careful about that. He doesn't want to go the way of Pat, the character, the hermephraditic character because that's only good for one sketch.


I think Trent Lott should do it. I love his whole Dixiecrat guy character. I think that's really funny.


CARLSON: Before you give us your analysis of Trent Lott. Tell us, Gore has not only campaigned but he's also performed before. I want you to take a look at a past experiment with performance art that Al Gore undertook a couple years ago.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


GORE: I would like to demonstrate for you...


(APPLAUSE)


GORE: ... the Al Gore version of the Macarana.


(CHEERING)


GORE: Would you like to see it again?


(END VIDEO CLIP)


CARLSON: You notice the pain on Tipper's face. Could he top that do you think?


ROCCA: You know he has to be careful because Phish is the musical guest that night. They're pretty hip. The bar will be raised pretty high.


When I look at that Macarana performance, Gore is kind of coming out of his shell. we haven't seen much of him. Sure he's be on "Letterman," he's been on "Leno," he's been on "The Daily Show," he's been on "LARRY KING," he went on Paula Zahn's show. I think he's rehearsing for the center square next week.


But I understand that he did the Cartoon Network today and it was very difficult to animate him. Always a challenge with him. Unrecognizable when he is animated.


BEGALA: Of course he's coming on CROSSFIRE in a couple weeks as well Mo, to show you just how very low he's willing to sink. But we'll be glad to have glad to have him.


You mentioned being animated. Should he dance? We all saw Janet Reno do a star turn on "Saturday Night Live" a couple of months ago when she did the "Janet Reno Dance Party." Will Farrell had been mocking her. We can see, there's Janet busting through the wall. Attorney General John Ashcroft not half the woman Janet Reno is. Should he try to dance the way Janet did?


ROCCA: I would love to see Al Gore get jiggy, sure. I he probably -- I should say also I may be taking jabs at him, but for all the places and shows he's been on I'd love to know who his agent is. I'm still in the ghetto of basic cable. This guy's doing premium, he's doing basic, but he's also doing network. He's doing something right that I'm not doing.


CARLSON: And the Spice Channel.


Mo, I've been -- I've been here on CROSSFIRE all week doing Trent Lott shows. I'll admit it's not quite clear to me what Senator Lott was attempting to say last week at Strom Thurmond's birthday. What's your guess? What do you thin he was trying to say?


ROCCA: I think he was -- I love the idea of sort of retroactive endorsements. I've gone on record as endorsing Adlai Stevenson in 1952. I just did that last week. Endorsing Samuel Tilden (ph) in 1876. It's sort of a fun party game that I play.


I've don't think he was the right choice to endorse Strom Thurmond. But I will say that Strom Thurmond's platform really was about defense, national defense. I think what he was about was defending black people from the right to vote. I think he was about defending black people from the front of the bus which I think is important, because anyone that's been on a school bus can tell you the front of the bus is very uncool.


No, the one thing I didn't get is that if Strom Thurmond had been elected we want be in the mess we are in today. Now the biggest mess we have, biggest problems, that we haven't found Osama bin Laden. And you know, Strom Thurmond is a very spry 100, I can't see him burrowing through Tora Bora. It just doesn't compute to me.


BEGALA: Maybe it would be easier to spot Osama if we were a fully segregated nation, as Strom Thurmond wanted us too, maybe he could just pick him out more easily. Do you suppose it could have been what's behind it?


ROCCA: You know, it could be. I mean, I think this is just Trent Lott's bid for an early, you know -- to capture early the 2004 Dixiecrat nomination for president. I think he's got it wrapped up.


But the person who should really be offended is Governor Thomas Dewey, because bear in mind he nominated the Dixiecrat candidate. He overlooked the Republican candidate from 1948. And talk about a disunifying move. I mean, that's horrible. This is a man prides himself on being a party man. What a slap in the face.


CARLSON: Well, we're going to have -- if he weren't dead we'd have him on CROSSFIRE to debate it, Mo. Who is going to get the Democratic nomination? Is Al Gore going to run?


ROCCA: You know what, let me look in my crystal basketball. although I hope my nephew Kevin isn't watching this because I know he's really excited for this gift and thinks it's coming from Santa.


BEGALA: I thought this was for Hector, Mo.


ROCCA: His name is -- Kev -- Victor. Kevin -- we called him Hector and Kevin. It's sort of a made-up name for a real person. The -- no -- I -- think -- gosh, who is going to get it? you know, I would love it to be some sort of dark horse.


CARLSON: Mo, unfortunately, we are completely out of time.


ROCCA: Dukakis! Dukakis!


CARLSON: Dukakis, all right. Come back and defend your choice. Again, Mo Rocca, thanks for joining us from New York. We appreciate it.


CARLSON: "Fireback" is next, with one viewer posing a fascinating question, What exactly does Al Gore do for a living? We'll answer it. We'll be right back.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: All right. Welcome back. Time now for "Fireback." Our first e-mail from Catherine Miller in Sioux Falls, South Dakota writes about last night's debate, where Tucker didn't like the fact there is a gay comic strip character, the Rawhide Kid. And then he went after Robin, suggesting maybe Robin wasn't a manly man.


Catherine writes, "Tucker, you should leave Robin alone. The superhero you resemble the most is Robin. You just have a bow tie instead of a cape."


I don't see you as a Robin guy.


CARLSON: But you know, it's the bow tie that tips you off to the manliness isn't it?


BEGALA: I certainly think so.


CARLSON: Yes. Thanks, Paul. I certainly appreciate that vote of confidence.


BEGALA: But you know he had the little tighty whities -- what did he wear, Robin? It was kind of...


CARLSON: He whore the unitard, I think we call them.


Joe Hampton of Red Bud, Illinois writes, "Tucker, would you please ask Begala why he hates golf but finds great sport in hiding behind a big tree with a big gun and ambushing little deer?"


BEGALA: If I have to ask I can't explain it. What could be more fun? I mean would you rather whack some little ball around or shoot some great deer? If golf clubs went boom I might play golf.


CARLSON: I'm going to stay out of this debate.


BEGALA: Golf clubs -- golf courses should just be turned over to nature preserves so we could all hunt on them.


My buddy, Guy Choate, of San Angelo, Texas -- we got that a little bit wrong there -- wrote me today and said this, "Paul, why couldn't Strom Thurmond have been born in October?"


Guy, great point. I wish he had been. We would have a Democratic United States Senate today if we had that birthday party in October.


CARLSON: Yes, but it does sort of make you think twice about the Democratic party's platform if you wait for the majority leader to say something stupid in order to win.


BEGALA: It was the accident of this misbehavior at the Wellstone memorial that tipped the Senate to the Republicans.


CARLSON: Well, that may be right.


Hugo Frugiuele from Bushkill, Pennsylvania writes, "Al Gore is breaking new ground for liberals and some Democrats by hosting 'Saturday Night Live' this weekend. But I think we should -- he should keep his day job, whatever that may be."


Hugo, if you discover whatever that may be, I hope you'll write in again and tell us. Because I have no clue.


BEGALA: He's a noted author.


CARLSON: The cat calendar is selling better than his book, but still -- yes, sir?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Matt Kennian (ph) from La Quieneta (ph), California. My question is, Don't the Democrats open themselves up to criticism of former KKK member Senator Robert Byrd by attacking Trent Lott on his recent comment?


CARLSON: I think they do open themselves up for criticism of double standard. I mean, Robert Byrd was a member of the clan, made some pretty horrifying racist statements, apologized, his apology was accepted by both parties. And I think that's a pretty good model.


BEGALA: Robert Byrd, of course, was in the KKK 60 years ago. It was just seven days ago -- eight days ago now that Trent Lott was pining for the days of segregation.


And there's a huge difference. Byrd has a terrific record on civil rights. And, frankly, Trent Lott does not.


CARLSON: Actually, I think we can take Trent Lott at his word today when he said he is not a racist nor does he support segregation.


BEGALA: Well, last week I took him at his word when he said he loved segregation....


(CROSSTALK)


CARLSON: Yes?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Trevor Tuensing (ph) from Jennings (ph), Louisiana and my question is, Do Trent Lott's remarks work against the many advances President Bush has tried to make with the African-American community?


BEGALA: Yes. As a political analyst, not as a partisan Democrat, somebody who has watched a lot of campaigns and worked on a lot of them, President Bush actually practices affirmative action in a good, in a wonderful way. He tries very hard to include African-Americans and other minorities in his photo ops.


I believe his policies aren't the best for them, but it's still good. Bush is trying to reach out to minorities and this does hamper his efforts.


CARLSON: The question is, in 2004 will the Democratic attempt to exploit race, hatred and fear for political gain? And the answer, unfortunately, is probably yes.


BEGALA: Are we going to raise the issue that the Republican party is led by some body who made a racist statement? I hope so.


Yes sir?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is David Dizer (ph), from Marietta, Georgia. I thought maybe Trent Lott was trying to get himself on to "Saturday Night Live," with Al Gore. That comment was a little ridiculous. It must have been a joke.


BEGALA: But not a very funny one. I watched that press conference today, you know, and it just -- he said, I didn't mean it, even though what he said was very plain and even though his hometown paper said he meant it.


CARLSON: Well what do you want? At some point, you have got to take the man at his word. He said it was a stupid thing to say. It was. We can leave it there.


Yes?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Scott Farbish (ph) from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Al Gore has changed his image more times than Madonna. Do we really want such an indecisive man being the leader of the free world?


CARLSON: I don't think you need to worry about that. That's not going to happen.


BEGALA: Well apparently not as long as Chief Justice Rehnquist is on the bench stealing elections for George W. Bush. I hope -- if Gore decides to runs, I hope he beats Bush by so much that even Rehnquist can't stop him.


CARLSON: And let the record show I hope he runs too. Good luck, Al Gore.


BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. Tune in on January 23 to see Al Gore here on CROSSFIRE.


CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Have a great weekend. We'll be back Monday. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins immediately.


TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT WWW.FDCH.COM




Aired December 14, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: he has got a lot to explain and he's trying again.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MAJORITY LEADER: It was a lighthearted affair, but my choice of words were totally unacceptable and insensitive, and I apologize for that.


(END VIDEO CLIP)


ANNOUNCER: Will it be enough? While Lott hangs in, Henry Kissinger wants out. The latest high-profile departure for the Bush camp. Comings and goings, who's really running things?


And live from New York it's Al Gore. We'll have advice for the budding host from late night comedy veterans.


Ahead on CROSSFIRE.


From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.


(APPLAUSE)


TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight: another high-profile departure through the revolving door at the White House. Who's in and who's out in the Bush administration?


Then, everything Al Gore needs to know for his gig hosting "Saturday Night Live" this weekend. That ought to be appalling. But first, live from Washington, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."


Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott apologized yet again, this time even more profusely, for his remarks praising Strom Thurmond's 1948 segregationist presidential bid. Lott made his strongest statements yet repudiating segregation, calling it wrong and immoral. He also denied being a racist and said he won't resign his post over something he is not.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


LOTT: I've asked and I'm asking for forbearance and forgiveness as I continue to learn from my own mistakes and as I continue to grow and get older. But as you get older, you hopefully grow in your views and acceptance of everybody, both as a person and certainly as a leader.


(END VIDEO CLIP)


CARLSON: Today's press conference was Lott's fourth or fifth apology, depending on how you count them. Aides said if this attempt doesn't mollify critics, Mr. Lott will take the next step, the Buddhist monk approach: set himself ablaze in public forum.


PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: The problem is we don't know whether we take him at his word last week, when he said he pined for the days of segregation, or this week now, when he says segregation is evil. Is he a man of his most recent word? I don't know.


CARLSON: Actually, this is a chance he had to explain himself. Whereas, the dumb remarks he made at Strom thurmond's 100th birthday were off the cuff and stupid, here you really heard what he thinks. So I am not excusing what he said, but I think we can take him at this word.


BEGALA: Well, how about you guys in the audience? Who here thinks he ought to go, that you're not buying the serial apologies out of Trent Lott?


(APPLAUSE)


CARLSON: Well, that's in then. The Senate has spoken. He's out of there.


BEGALA: In the another one bites the dust department, Henry Kissinger has resigned as chairman of the commission investigating 9/11. Dr. Kissinger had refused to disclose his long list of corporate clients, reported to include such oil giants as Exxon Mobile and Arco. The Bush White House claimed that Dr. Kissinger could investigate the attacks without disclosing such possible conflicts of interest. But the incoming Republican chairman of the ethics committee, Pat Roberts of Kansas, insisted that Kissinger file financial disclosure reports, which Senator Roberts claims are required by law.


Now George W. Bush, who bitterly opposed creating this independent commission in the first place, now faces the task of finding some one else who is willing to torpedo it for him. The short list is rumored to include: Katherine Harris, Mr. Magoo and Barney the White House dog. My money is on Barney. He's the only one I trust.


CARLSON: So this means that Dr. Kissinger is going to go back to lobbying for the big cigarette companies. I'm sorry, that was former Maine Senator George Mitchell, Democrat, who left early this week because he didn't want to give up the fees he gets from big tobacco.


BEGALA: The story, though, goes to Bush. Who's he going to put in charge of torpedoing this now?


CARLSON: I don't think he wants to torpedo it.


BEGALA: Really?


CARLSON: I actually was never a huge fan of the Kissinger idea, but he'll get someone good.


Al Gore claims he would have handled the economy better than George W. Bush has. Of course, it's unlikely we will ever know for sure. But we do know something about how Mr. Gore handles money. Just ask the people who work for him.


According to "Congress Daily," Gore was late paying his staff for most of the last year. Seven out of eight Gore employees did not receive any pay at all for up to two months at a time. It wasn't, of course, that Mr. Gore couldn't afford to pay the peons who work for him, Gore is rich, raking in untold thousands from big business. Earlier this year, he purchased a $2.3 million House next to a restricted country club in an exclusive part of Nashville Tennessee.


It's simply that Mr. Gore didn't feel like paying his staff. Instead, he spent the money on expensive travel promoting himself. And this is not an opinion, it's a fact found in a federal disclosure form. And it tells you all you need to know about Mr. Gore's devotion to the little guy.


BEGALA: You know, I love when you go after Gore personally. It tells me that that's the one you fear the most.


CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) his staff.


BEGALA: You don't want Al Gore to take on George W. because you know he got more votes than Bush did the last time.


CARLSON: You know that is not true. But truly, don't you think it's a bit much for a rich guy not to pay his staff?


BEGALA: As a former staffer, I'm always for staffers always getting paid.


CARLSON: Me too.


BEGALA: Well, the embattled Cardinal Bernard Law -- that phrase has sort of become a media clich lately; it sort of rolls off the tongue, just like oil-rich Kuwait, tech-heavy Nasdaq or dumb-ass Trent Lott. Well, but the battle over Cardinal Law is over. Law has surrendered.


From Rome today comes words that Pope John Paul II has accepted the resignation of Cardinal Law as the archbishop of Boston. Law had been accused of allowing priests to continue serving after repeated allegations of sex abuse by those priests against children. Cardinal Law had a stalwart defender, though, in President Bush, who, back in March called Law, "a man of integrity," and expressed confidence in Law's ability to handle the crisis.


No word yet on what Law will do next. A spokesman for the Senate Republican Caucus says they're interested in recruiting Cardinal Law to serve as leader of the Senate Republicans. Couldn't do any worse than Lott.


CARLSON: I can't wait. Next time there is a volcano in, say, Madagascar, I can't wait to see how you tie that to the Bush administration. Bush is a Methodist. He shouldn't have weighed in on this. He probably doesn't know much about the Catholic Church. But to blame him for Law, come on.


BEGALA: I don't blame him, but he embraced him and said he had total confidence in him.


CARLSON: No he didn't embrace him.


BEGALA: Yes he did. He called him a man of integrity. He's not a man of integrity.


CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) religious leader, and the president unfortunately does that a little too much, as we have seen right after 9/11. But still, it was in good faith.


In news from the frozen north tonight, Canada's justice minister has announced plans to decriminalize the use of marijuana. The news came as the Canadian parliament released a new report reaching much the same conclusion: Canadians who possess up to an ounce of marijuana, the report says, should be allowed to smoke it in peace without being arrested.


American officials say they're appalled by the development, which, they say, is premature, unwise and will almost certainly lead to an increase in international drug trafficking. Relax, say the Canadians, after posing for several long moments to gather their thoughts. The new policy is an acknowledgement that, if you have to live in Canada, it probably helps to smoke a little dope.


BEGALA: On this one, I'm with the Bush administration. The last thing -- it's not my country, but the last thing North America needs is more readily available pot. I don't like it. I don't think it is a good idea.


CARLSON: It depends on how good it is. Actually, I'm sort of on the Canadian side, and I feel for them. Look, you're living in an igloo, OK, and the dog team is sick. Not a lot to do. I understand.


BEGALA: They've got beer. Canadian beer is great. They should drink beer.


CARLSON: It's overrated.


BEGALA: My fellow North Americans in Canada, drink beer.


Well, bad news for the Bush White House is great news for two little girls. Mary Matalin, the former co-host of this program, is leaving the Bush White House. Ms. Matalin has been counselor to Vice President Dick Cheney and a key advisor to President Bush. She played an important role in steadying the nation after the attacks of September 11. And, as one of the very best political strategists in the business, Mary deserves kudos for helping her party, the Republicans, score their electoral triumph back in November.


She's leaving the White House to devote more time to two of the best and most beautiful girls in the world, Mattie (ph) and Emerson (ph) Carville. While some White House aides leave under a cloud, our friend Mary departs under a halo. Good luck. God bless Mary Matalin.


CARLSON: Amen. And she is also, we should note, the wife of our friend and colleague James Carville, who I think she will get under a little tighter control now that she's running the House more often. Good for her. And we can have her on CROSSFIRE. I can't wait.


BEGALA: Aside from her appalling taste in men, everything about Mary is great. Well, her taste in politicians is not so great either. But, those two -- I am glad to see her back home with the girls.


CARLSON: Amen.


BEGALA: Up next: another mea culpa from Trent Lott for his outrageous remarks. Will this one stick and will it be enough to end the calls for his resignation as Senate Republican leader?


And Al Gore's next gig. He's going to host "Saturday Night Live." "The Daily Show's" Mo Rocca will offer some advice coming up.


(APPLAUSE)


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


(APPLAUSE)


CARLSON: Welcome back. Trent Lott, Henry Kissinger, Al Gore, Cardinal Law, it sounds like a sitcom. But no, it's news. It's been a big week for that.


Here to help us make sense of all of it is Vic Fazio, a Democrat, former member of Congress from California. Joining him, Bay Buchanan, a conservative strategist, president of The American Cause.


(APPLAUSE)


BEGALA: Bay, before you walked out, we asked our audience, they weren't buying it, the Lott press conference today. They weren't buying the apologies. What did you make of it?


BAY BUCHANAN, CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST: I think the apology was totally acceptable. I think that Senator Lott has done a fine job of trying -- of explaining himself and apologizing. He recognizes a mistake that he clearly made, and everybody agrees that it was a terrible mistake, the suggestion that his remark made. But that's yesterday now, Tucker.


I think he certainly explained to the American people that he did not intend that. That was not what he intended. And that he, indeed, does not feel those things in his heart. In which case, he is certainly qualified to be the leader of the party. But that decision will be up to the Republicans.


CARLSON: Mr. Fazio, will -- is he going to hold on.


VIC FAZIO, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, you know it really will depend on whether any one emerges from the pack in the Senate. If Don Nichols or Chuck Hagel or Bill First or even Mitch McConnell decide that it's time for him to go, then he's really got an issue to deal with. But where are the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Where are the Bennetts (ph), where are the Crystals (ph) today? Are they continuing to advocate his removal?


The Kemp wing of the Republican Party is livid. And that's why the president went so strongly public yesterday. It's also, I'm sure, the president's effort to staunch the bleeding and to put an end to it. Because I don't believe he is calling for Lott's resignation. Obviously, if he were to change his opinion, if he thought the burden on the Republican Party would be too great and he decided to make a move, I think he would find a way to upset Senator Lott's chances of staying power.


BUCHANAN: You know, Congressman, you know what is unfortunate? It's not just the Democrats, as has been pointed out, there are some conservatives who have jumped on this bandwagon. And I believe they do so for their own agenda.


You know I have not been a supporter of Trent Lott many times. I prefer Don Nichols. I'm more conservative than Trent Lott. And so -- but when you look at exactly what we have here, we have a man that clearly made a mistake. Everybody who has worked with him, everybody who is close to him, anyone who has been associated with him has clearly said that the man doesn't have a racist bone in his body.


It clearly was a mistake. He made a dumb mistake, but he did not in any way suggest that it was something worse than that. And for them to kind of put it on the bandwagon, the guy is hurt, he made a mistake, and so now let's all jump on the bandwagon and try to get him while he is down I think it's an outrageous -- I think the conservatives...


FAZIO: The problem, Bay, is there is a pattern here. There's a pattern that goes back a long way. And if you look a record comparison between Strom Thurmond and Trent Lott, you see that Strom gravitated much more quickly to the center from his position in 1948.


He voted for Martin Luther King's birthday, he voted to extend the voting rights act of 1981. And Trent Lott didn't. So as you begin to see a pattern over time, you begin to ask questions about whether this is just more of the same apology for the same mistake.


BEGALA: In fact, let's take a look at the record, Bay. This is just some of the lowlights, I would call them. Others would agree with these votes -- every one of them, I'm sure.


In 1980, Trent Lott got out and endorsed Strom Thurmond's '48 candidacy in eerily similar words to those he used last week and said the country would have been better if we had followed Thurmond's candidacy and supported it. In 1981 he filed a brief with the Supreme Court, where he claimed racial discrimination does not always violate public policy.


In 1984, he said the spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the 1984 GOP platform, the party of Lincoln. In '92 he went to a very controversial group, the Conservative Citizens Council, which some people have alleged to be white supremacists and told them they stand for the right principles. In 1998, he told a magazine, "Sometimes I feel closer to Jefferson Davis than any other man in America."


And just last week again said that we would be better off, we wouldn't have had all these problems if we had had a segregationist president instead of Harry Truman. Now that is a pattern. That is a record.


BUCHANAN: You know, as I said again, the remark last week, in no way did he intend that. It was a comment directly to an individual who was having his 100th birthday. And I'm going to tell you, if everybody who told my brother Pat we'd be better off if you were president, you should be president, he would be president. It's that simple.


They run into somebody who ran for president, and it's a comment you make. It wasn't intended to be a national comment. He's made it many times before.


But the issue here is something both the congressman and you were pointing out. Is he's done things in the past. But he has been the majority leader in the past, and I didn't hear you, and I didn't hear you saying, my golly, why is the man the leader of this party, when all of these things have taken place?


The man is not racist. None of those things that he did suggest he is. And what I suggest is happening here is that, the Democrats, who got whooped badly by this president and his party a month ago, are out there, they're angry, they see a little blood in the water, they're circling, and they're going to use the only thing they have that works any more they feel, and I believe that no longer works, and that's the race card.


Because you have no message whatsoever. Let's get the race card out and go immediately after...


CARLSON: I want to respond to this. I want to throw out -- just to put this whole debate in some perspective -- text of a letter that Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, a prominent Democrat, the longest serving Democrat in the United States Senate, wrote some years ago about integrating the military.


"I shall never submit to fight beneath that banner with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times and see old glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, then to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."


Now, it's hard to imagine anything uglier than that. That was some time ago, and he's apologized for it profusely. And that's the point. Just as Mr. Lott apologized for comments no where near that ugly. Democrats have taken Mr. Byrd at his word, why not take Mr. Lott at his?


FAZIO: Well, you know I don't think it's a question of taking somebody at their word. I think it's really a question of looking at where the modern Republican Party has come from. If you look at who has been really leading the party since the early '90s, Georgia, Texas, at best, border states, like Missouri and Oklahoma. Men who have been elected to Congress with at least an element of their constituency not yet settled on the civil rights movement.


I think you saw in Georgia, for example, in this election, an increase in white male turnout of nine percent over the last election. Many people think it had a lot to do with the fight over the confederate battle flag in that state. Where the governor, with the business community pushing him, attempted to mollify and diffuse this issue.


CARLSON: Wait, Mr. Fazio. It's still legal -- just for the record -- for white men to come out and vote. I don't know if you know that.


FAZIO: Absolutely. I'm not pointing out that it is illegal.


CARLSON: But you are implying that they're racist is what you're doing.


FAZIO: No, Tucker, I'm saying they went because this is still an issue that stimulates them. This is still an issue that brings them out of the woodwork. These were not people who had voted consistently. They were responding to a stimulus.


We saw this week Clarence Thomas sitting on the Supreme Court questioning in the cross burning case in Virginia whether or not this was a symbol of free speech or a symbol of oppression and violence and degradation. The southern political scene is still not yet finished with all of the follow-on to the Civil War. These are still issues that galvanize voters left and right. And we need to bring an end to it.


BUCHANAN: You know, you suggest that the reason that they got out there is somehow because of some underlying, latent, racism on their part.


FAZIO: No I'm not saying that.


BUCHANAN: No, no. But you overlooked the fact that there has been an assault with that flag on their heritage. And it's black and white, southerners alike, who feel the assault. And when you take them on and their family on, they come out and respond. And that is a legitimate issue. That has nothing to do with race.


BEGALA: But Bay, it was an assault on their heritage, their racist heritage. The confederate battle flag was placed on the Georgia flag 21 months after Brown versus Board of Education to symbolize massive resistance to racial equality. It was one of the darkest days in the history of a great state.


Governor Barnes changed that with a lot of help, as Vic pointed out, from the business community. That is the piece, that part of their heritage that was under attack. The one that was a part of that heritage that was racist.


BUCHANAN: You know what the problem here is? You all see it only your way. You will not accept the fact that it is very legitimate. That is a battle flag. That confederate flag is what went over the battles.


BEGALA: I actually read the debates from '56. I worked for Governor Miller, when he tried to change that flag, Bay.


BUCHANAN: You can read anything you want, but I know...


BEGALA: They said let's put this on as a symbol of our massive resistance to integration. That's why they did it. It's in the record.


BUCHANAN: Let me ask you both, do you believe that Trent Lott is racist?


FAZIO: I don't believe that Trent Lott is a racist. But I think he comes from a segregationist past. You know he is a product of his environment.


BUCHANAN: Unbelievable.


FAZIO: Both Ole Miss (ph) and subsequently, and I think he does...


BUCHANAN: Is it in his blood, Congressman? Are we suggesting that if you're a southern Republican...


FAZIO: It's an experience that he brought from his youth. And I think it's easy for him to forget where he thinks he should be these days and sort of speak as he does occasionally off the cuff in a way that brings these sorts of feelings out.


BUCHANAN: It's either in his heart or it's not -- of course it's not. It was a mistake. And you are not willing to acknowledge that.


CARLSON: Congressman, look, like you, I'm from California, and debates over battle flags and segregation, I'm sure as they do to you, seem a little alien to me. But we agree on this one thing, that this kind of controversy over race is ugly, at best. And probably ought not to be in politics.


FAZIO: It certainly is.


CARLSON: I'm struck by the fact that in my short lifetime it's Democrats invariably who bring it to the floor. I'm going to give you one among many examples.


FAZIO: He brought this to the floor himself.


CARLSON: This is it: in this election, Julius Henson, who was a political consultant working for Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, had this to say about her opponent, who is now the governor of Maryland, "Bobby Erlich is a Nazi," he said. "His record his horrible, atrocious. In Prince George's County, we'll define him as the Nazi that he is. Once we do that, I think people will vote for Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. He should be running in Germany of 1942, not Maryland in 2002."


This its not an aberration. It is ridiculous. I agree with that. It is ridiculous.


FAZIO: In fact, it's the Bob Ehrlichs who are trying to broaden the base of the Republican Party who are going to pay a price for what's just occurred in the last week.


CARLSON: Wait a second. This is is...


(CROSSTALK)


BEGALA: You don't think that an obscure, wholly unknown guy that Tucker dredged out of a swamp in Maryland is equal to Trent Lott, the Republican leader of the United States Senate, do you?


BUCHANAN: No. I'll tell you what I do believe, though. I believe that there is a group of people in this country, many of our leaders, who will not give up the race card because that is their livelihood. Democrats and Black Caucus people. And, do you know what? There is nothing we can do as Republicans that will ever appease them, ever bring them to the point where they say, "you know, this is -- these people are for equal rights, they're with us in heart and soul and effort. They may disagree with us on reparations, they may disagree with us on affirmative action, but there is nothing in them that would suggest they have any latent racist tendencies."


BEGALA: Except when they say we would have been better off with a segregationist president than Harry Truman, which their leader said last week.


BUCHANAN: Do you believe he is a racist? Do you believe he's a racist.


BEGALA: I can't see in another man's heart, but I believe his local paper is right when they say...


BUCHANAN: You do not, and you are spinning this in attempting to destroy his reputation.


BEGALA: Excuse me. I believe his local paper is right when they say -- no, no, I have no idea if he is. I don't even know the man. His local paper...


BUCHANAN: You know he is not.


BEGALA: ... who has covered hem for 30 years said he believed what he said when he said that Strom Thurmond would have been a better president than Harry Truman. That's what the Pascagoula...


CARLSON: I think the argument we're having here is one about politics. We all agree we can't know Trent Lott's heart. But the fact is -- and Bay Buchanan put it quite well -- is that the black vote is critical to Democrats. And inflaming a vote, whether it's a black vote, a white vote or any vote, is one of the keys to turnout. And Democrats profit when black voters are afraid the Republicans are racist.


FAZIO: The Republicans profit when white voters in the south, middle class, lower middle class, working class, whatever you want to call them, feel that they're being impinged upon by integration, by changing the way in which kids get into the university. You fill in the blank. So the race card can be played on both sides.


BEGALA: Hang on just a second. I know Tucker and I, we will be right back. After the break, we're going to discuss whether Henry Kissinger should have left that independent 9/11 panel. Stay with us.


(APPLAUSE)


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are still rehashing the Trent Lott controversy. And later we'll talk about the changing of the guard at the Bush White House in the economic team and in other areas.


We are joined by Vic Fazio, a Democrat from California, former member of the Congress, and by Bay Buchanan, leading Republican strategist. Thank you all for staying through the break.


CARLSON: Congressman, you said at the very beginning -- and I'm glad you did -- that there were a lot of Republican conservatives, anyway, who don't necessarily want Trent Lott to remain as majority leader. Paul Begala was honest enough last night to admit that a lot of Democrats want him to remain because they want to use this issue in 2004. Do you think that is true?


FAZIO: Well, we're not really in this game. This is a Republican decision. And you can spin it either way, you know?


Some people would say better off to have him there, he's wounded. Others would say, no, on principle he has to go. The Republicans will decide whether he has become a liability.


But let me make this point. Mitch McConnell will come out of this in a much stronger position -- the whip, the number two man in the Senate. Because I do think, assuming he is retained, and I believe he will be, Trent Lott has been wounded. Another person who I think is a victim of this maybe, Judge Pickering (ph), who wanted to make one more run at the Republican majority.


I'm not sure the Republican Party wants to pursue this. Judge Pickering (ph), Trent Lott are really one of a kind and come from the same place in Mississippi and have political allies for a long, long time. So it would be interesting to see how this all plays out. I don't think we know the end of it yet.


BUCHANAN: Congressman, what do you mean one of a kind?


BEGALA: Bay, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but -- there is a little breaking news out of the White House. Our president, through his spokesman Ari Fleischer, once again reiterated his support for Senator Lott and said, again, that he should continue as the Republican leader.


Now my question is, isn't the president trying to have it both ways? He began by saying he supports him unquestionably a week ago. Then he strongly attacked what Lott had said. And in today's newspaper, one of his aides says Bush never really liked him. Now, in the last five minutes, he says he should stay on. He is polling this, isn't he, Bay? He'd doing this by polls, not principle.


BUCHANAN: They don't do anything in the White House without a poll or two, I don't think. Eat breakfast without a poll. The key here is I think what the president did was unfortunate. Clearly, it was politically a popular thing to do. It will probably help him in the polls.


He saw an opportunity whether they polled it or not, and he used it. But he used an opportunity at the expense of someone who has been carrying his water on the hill. And whether he liked the fellow or not, we all know that Trent Lott has done his work for him, for the president, on the hill.


So he, instead of putting friendship first in a time when he really didn't need to make a political statement on this issue, nobody is accusing the president of anything here, he used this opportunity at the expense of a friend. Who is the individual who spoke, who rebuked him? It was the president. Who is the individual who supports him? It was the president's spokesperson, not the president. That's a difference.


BEGALA: That's interesting. Very wise.


CARLSON: Congressman, we reported earlier in the show that federal disclosure documents out recently show that Al Gore, former vice president, you may have heard of him, didn't pay his staff for months on end simply because he just didn't feel like paying it, I guess. He doesn't really have a lot of moral authority to lecture anyone else on how to handle money, does he, a? And, B, the fact that he can't raise money is a sign that he can't be elected again.


FAZIO: Well, I'm not sure that he's buckled down to the task of raising money fully, because I don't think he's yet decided whether he's running. I know one thing, I certainly want my former staff people going around town complaining about not having been paid. But I don't think there's much to glean from this story. I mean, if, in fact, the vice president decides to make a full-fledge run for president, I'm sure he will not only raise plenty of money but pay his bills.


Where he'll come out in the long run, I don't know. I just don't know, because...


(CROSSTALK)


FAZIO: Because the folks out there in the Democratic party believe he was the winner and it was taken away from him. He has a tremendous amount of support among just plain voting Democrats.


CARLSON: But isn't that the reason he won't run again? Because if he doesn't run again, he will be this sort of poignant footnote. If he runs again and loses, inevitably he'll be Mike Dukakis.


FAZIO: Well I don't think anybody really knows at this point. We've all learned that it's too early even now to decide how this next election will play out.


But there are going to be a lot of other people in this race. And it seems to me that the political leadership in the party, both contributing political operatives, et cetera, are looking for somebody else.


BEGALA: Our president now is looking for somebody else to chair the 9/11 panel. We mentioned this a moment ago. Henry Kissinger, someone deeply distrusted by both the left and the right, probably for good reason has stepped aside from running it.


I think Bush put Kissinger in there because he wanted to torpedo it. Don't you think he should appoint somebody like Rudy Giuliani. Republican, of course, but highly principled and very able guy.


BUCHANAN: You are an interesting, person, Paul. Just a few moments ago you said you don't know what's in the heart of people. And yet you seem, too, on certain occasions in the heart of the president that he it there to torpedo it.


Now, obviously...


BEGALA: He's opposed that legislation for nine months.


BUCHANAN: Obviously you don't know what was in the heart of the president.


CARLSON: Good point, Bay.


BEGALA: I don't know what's in his heart. I know what's in his record. He opposed the commission and now he's trying to undermine it.


BUCHANAN: But, no -- you cannot jump -- you cannot jump to the conclusion that then he wanted to undermine it. You know, his is a report that's going to come out, a study that will come out. It's not going to be I don't think anything the president needs to be ashamed of. I think there's enough -- there's already been out there that points to the fact that the intelligence community was asleep at the wheel, all right?


And what has to be done is we have to move ahead and get ourselves first-class intelligence operation.


CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are out of time.


BUCHANAN: Out of time.


CARLSON: But we hope you will both come back. Bay Buchanan, Vic Fazio, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.


White House issues a new statement about Trent Lott. Connie Chung has all the details next in the CNN "News Alert."


And then, Al Gore on "Saturday Night Live." It's not a parody. It will happen. Let's hope than he was a candidate.


And then, our "Quote of the Day" from a man who's out of a job, but may not be out of trouble. We'll be right back.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


(NEWS ALERT)


BEGALA: Still ahead, Al Gore hosting "Saturday Night Live." We'll get some helpful hints for him compliments of "The Daily Show's" Mo Rocca.


And a "Quote of the Day," some say a quote that came a little too late. Stay with us.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now to reveal who said our "Quote of the Day."


For almost two decades, this man led the faithful of the Archdiocese of Boston. He apparently didn't provide the kind of leadership needed to deal with the alleged molestation of children by priests. Today, POPE JOHN PAUL II accepted Cardinal Bernard Law's resignation as the Archbishop of Boston. In a statement, Law said -- quote -- "To all those who have suffered from my shortcomings and mistakes, I both apologize and from them, beg forgiveness."


CARLSON: Five words, Paul: tell it to the prosecutor. Practicing the sentencing speech. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy. I don't know my way on this sort of thing. Not my business. But, it's everybody's business when the law is broken. Not to be self righteous. This is a time when it's impossible to be self righteous. It's so outrageous.


BEGALA: I agree. I believe in forgiveness and he's entitled to forgiveness. But he also has to face the bar of justice. And I don't think he's done that yet. This is a tragic story but I'm glad that the Pope accepted the resignation. I suspect the Pope gave him a papal shove.


CARLSON: Suspect. Having watched CROSSFIRE, an avid viewer of CROSSFIRE he is.


BEGALA: Yes, the Pope watches every night. Certainly.


CARLSON: E-mails a lot, too. Coming up in "Fireback" one viewer raises important questions about the relationship between Batman and Robin.


And next, "The Daily Show's" Mo Rocca joins us with some helpful hints for Al Gore as he hosts "Saturday Night Live." He in desperate need of them. He'll get them. We'll be right back.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Tomorrow on "Saturday Night Live" fans across the country will be treated to an increasingly familiar sight, a host of "SNL" from the world of politics. This time it's Al Gore.


Although he's appeared on the show before this will be Mr. Gore's first time hosting. Here to give the once and possibly future presidential candidate helpful hints, "Daily Show" correspondent Mo Rocca. He is also live from New York. Hey, Mo.


CARLSON: Hey, Mo.


MO ROCCA, "DAILY SHOW": Hi. How are you?


BEGALA: Need some help?


ROCCA: Oh, no. I'm just wrapping a gift for my nephew Hector. He's going to be really excited. Go ahead.


CARLSON: He'll love it. Boy, it's -- well, I'm not even going to go there.


BEGALA: Is Hector watching CROSSFIRE tonight? He's probably watching isn't he, Mo?


ROCCA: He thinks Santa Claus exists. So I don't want him to watch us. But my niece Nichelle (ph) really wants a little Gund Bob Novak. Do you have that? Like a little stuffed bob Novak?


CARLSON: Oh the little plush toy? Yes, I'll give you the toll-free number after the show. You can get one.


You know who is watching, Mo, I know for a fact is Al Gore. Waiting for instructions, advice and tips from you about what to do on "Saturday Night Live," tomorrow. What should he do?


ROCCA: The main thing is that people are going to be looking for new characters. His tried-and-true characters all have been very successful. The little white lie guy, earth tone guy, heavy sigh guy from the debates was a really big hit.


But I think he needs to try something new. We saw that a little with bloated, bearded, recluse guy. But, I just think, you know, and the truth of the matter as we know he was bested in the election by George Bush's English as a second language guy, which is an amazing character. It's great.


BEGALA: You mentioned earth tone guy, Mo. What should he wear? I know you're a fashion plate, we can all see that. What should Al Gore wear?


ROCCA: Oh well, thank you, God, you're making me blush. I think he should wear -- I think he should wear earth tones. I think he should show that he has a sense of humor. Yes, that's my -- my opinion on it.


CARLSON: Speaking of humor, he has to start the show, guest hosts do with a monologue. What should he say?


ROCCA: I think what he might want to do is read from his new book "Joined At The Heart" I think. Because that's a story that really has to be told. I mean it's sort of like "The Jungle" of our generation. It's pretty sensational stuff. So, I -- that's what I would recommend from him.


BEGALA: Do you suppose he should announce his candidacy on "Saturday Night Live?" Is that a good venue...


ROCCA: It's not -- when you look at past hosts like George McGovern and Steve Forbes it's probably not best to announce your candidacy there because careers tend to go nowhere.


But I do think if he gets an offer to -- to spin off a movie from one of his characters he should be very careful about that. He doesn't want to go the way of Pat, the character, the hermephraditic character because that's only good for one sketch.


I think Trent Lott should do it. I love his whole Dixiecrat guy character. I think that's really funny.


CARLSON: Before you give us your analysis of Trent Lott. Tell us, Gore has not only campaigned but he's also performed before. I want you to take a look at a past experiment with performance art that Al Gore undertook a couple years ago.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


GORE: I would like to demonstrate for you...


(APPLAUSE)


GORE: ... the Al Gore version of the Macarana.


(CHEERING)


GORE: Would you like to see it again?


(END VIDEO CLIP)


CARLSON: You notice the pain on Tipper's face. Could he top that do you think?


ROCCA: You know he has to be careful because Phish is the musical guest that night. They're pretty hip. The bar will be raised pretty high.


When I look at that Macarana performance, Gore is kind of coming out of his shell. we haven't seen much of him. Sure he's be on "Letterman," he's been on "Leno," he's been on "The Daily Show," he's been on "LARRY KING," he went on Paula Zahn's show. I think he's rehearsing for the center square next week.


But I understand that he did the Cartoon Network today and it was very difficult to animate him. Always a challenge with him. Unrecognizable when he is animated.


BEGALA: Of course he's coming on CROSSFIRE in a couple weeks as well Mo, to show you just how very low he's willing to sink. But we'll be glad to have glad to have him.


You mentioned being animated. Should he dance? We all saw Janet Reno do a star turn on "Saturday Night Live" a couple of months ago when she did the "Janet Reno Dance Party." Will Farrell had been mocking her. We can see, there's Janet busting through the wall. Attorney General John Ashcroft not half the woman Janet Reno is. Should he try to dance the way Janet did?


ROCCA: I would love to see Al Gore get jiggy, sure. I he probably -- I should say also I may be taking jabs at him, but for all the places and shows he's been on I'd love to know who his agent is. I'm still in the ghetto of basic cable. This guy's doing premium, he's doing basic, but he's also doing network. He's doing something right that I'm not doing.


CARLSON: And the Spice Channel.


Mo, I've been -- I've been here on CROSSFIRE all week doing Trent Lott shows. I'll admit it's not quite clear to me what Senator Lott was attempting to say last week at Strom Thurmond's birthday. What's your guess? What do you thin he was trying to say?


ROCCA: I think he was -- I love the idea of sort of retroactive endorsements. I've gone on record as endorsing Adlai Stevenson in 1952. I just did that last week. Endorsing Samuel Tilden (ph) in 1876. It's sort of a fun party game that I play.


I've don't think he was the right choice to endorse Strom Thurmond. But I will say that Strom Thurmond's platform really was about defense, national defense. I think what he was about was defending black people from the right to vote. I think he was about defending black people from the front of the bus which I think is important, because anyone that's been on a school bus can tell you the front of the bus is very uncool.


No, the one thing I didn't get is that if Strom Thurmond had been elected we want be in the mess we are in today. Now the biggest mess we have, biggest problems, that we haven't found Osama bin Laden. And you know, Strom Thurmond is a very spry 100, I can't see him burrowing through Tora Bora. It just doesn't compute to me.


BEGALA: Maybe it would be easier to spot Osama if we were a fully segregated nation, as Strom Thurmond wanted us too, maybe he could just pick him out more easily. Do you suppose it could have been what's behind it?


ROCCA: You know, it could be. I mean, I think this is just Trent Lott's bid for an early, you know -- to capture early the 2004 Dixiecrat nomination for president. I think he's got it wrapped up.


But the person who should really be offended is Governor Thomas Dewey, because bear in mind he nominated the Dixiecrat candidate. He overlooked the Republican candidate from 1948. And talk about a disunifying move. I mean, that's horrible. This is a man prides himself on being a party man. What a slap in the face.


CARLSON: Well, we're going to have -- if he weren't dead we'd have him on CROSSFIRE to debate it, Mo. Who is going to get the Democratic nomination? Is Al Gore going to run?


ROCCA: You know what, let me look in my crystal basketball. although I hope my nephew Kevin isn't watching this because I know he's really excited for this gift and thinks it's coming from Santa.


BEGALA: I thought this was for Hector, Mo.


ROCCA: His name is -- Kev -- Victor. Kevin -- we called him Hector and Kevin. It's sort of a made-up name for a real person. The -- no -- I -- think -- gosh, who is going to get it? you know, I would love it to be some sort of dark horse.


CARLSON: Mo, unfortunately, we are completely out of time.


ROCCA: Dukakis! Dukakis!


CARLSON: Dukakis, all right. Come back and defend your choice. Again, Mo Rocca, thanks for joining us from New York. We appreciate it.


CARLSON: "Fireback" is next, with one viewer posing a fascinating question, What exactly does Al Gore do for a living? We'll answer it. We'll be right back.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


BEGALA: All right. Welcome back. Time now for "Fireback." Our first e-mail from Catherine Miller in Sioux Falls, South Dakota writes about last night's debate, where Tucker didn't like the fact there is a gay comic strip character, the Rawhide Kid. And then he went after Robin, suggesting maybe Robin wasn't a manly man.


Catherine writes, "Tucker, you should leave Robin alone. The superhero you resemble the most is Robin. You just have a bow tie instead of a cape."


I don't see you as a Robin guy.


CARLSON: But you know, it's the bow tie that tips you off to the manliness isn't it?


BEGALA: I certainly think so.


CARLSON: Yes. Thanks, Paul. I certainly appreciate that vote of confidence.


BEGALA: But you know he had the little tighty whities -- what did he wear, Robin? It was kind of...


CARLSON: He whore the unitard, I think we call them.


Joe Hampton of Red Bud, Illinois writes, "Tucker, would you please ask Begala why he hates golf but finds great sport in hiding behind a big tree with a big gun and ambushing little deer?"


BEGALA: If I have to ask I can't explain it. What could be more fun? I mean would you rather whack some little ball around or shoot some great deer? If golf clubs went boom I might play golf.


CARLSON: I'm going to stay out of this debate.


BEGALA: Golf clubs -- golf courses should just be turned over to nature preserves so we could all hunt on them.


My buddy, Guy Choate, of San Angelo, Texas -- we got that a little bit wrong there -- wrote me today and said this, "Paul, why couldn't Strom Thurmond have been born in October?"


Guy, great point. I wish he had been. We would have a Democratic United States Senate today if we had that birthday party in October.


CARLSON: Yes, but it does sort of make you think twice about the Democratic party's platform if you wait for the majority leader to say something stupid in order to win.


BEGALA: It was the accident of this misbehavior at the Wellstone memorial that tipped the Senate to the Republicans.


CARLSON: Well, that may be right.


Hugo Frugiuele from Bushkill, Pennsylvania writes, "Al Gore is breaking new ground for liberals and some Democrats by hosting 'Saturday Night Live' this weekend. But I think we should -- he should keep his day job, whatever that may be."


Hugo, if you discover whatever that may be, I hope you'll write in again and tell us. Because I have no clue.


BEGALA: He's a noted author.


CARLSON: The cat calendar is selling better than his book, but still -- yes, sir?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Matt Kennian (ph) from La Quieneta (ph), California. My question is, Don't the Democrats open themselves up to criticism of former KKK member Senator Robert Byrd by attacking Trent Lott on his recent comment?


CARLSON: I think they do open themselves up for criticism of double standard. I mean, Robert Byrd was a member of the clan, made some pretty horrifying racist statements, apologized, his apology was accepted by both parties. And I think that's a pretty good model.


BEGALA: Robert Byrd, of course, was in the KKK 60 years ago. It was just seven days ago -- eight days ago now that Trent Lott was pining for the days of segregation.


And there's a huge difference. Byrd has a terrific record on civil rights. And, frankly, Trent Lott does not.


CARLSON: Actually, I think we can take Trent Lott at his word today when he said he is not a racist nor does he support segregation.


BEGALA: Well, last week I took him at his word when he said he loved segregation....


(CROSSTALK)


CARLSON: Yes?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Trevor Tuensing (ph) from Jennings (ph), Louisiana and my question is, Do Trent Lott's remarks work against the many advances President Bush has tried to make with the African-American community?


BEGALA: Yes. As a political analyst, not as a partisan Democrat, somebody who has watched a lot of campaigns and worked on a lot of them, President Bush actually practices affirmative action in a good, in a wonderful way. He tries very hard to include African-Americans and other minorities in his photo ops.


I believe his policies aren't the best for them, but it's still good. Bush is trying to reach out to minorities and this does hamper his efforts.


CARLSON: The question is, in 2004 will the Democratic attempt to exploit race, hatred and fear for political gain? And the answer, unfortunately, is probably yes.


BEGALA: Are we going to raise the issue that the Republican party is led by some body who made a racist statement? I hope so.


Yes sir?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is David Dizer (ph), from Marietta, Georgia. I thought maybe Trent Lott was trying to get himself on to "Saturday Night Live," with Al Gore. That comment was a little ridiculous. It must have been a joke.


BEGALA: But not a very funny one. I watched that press conference today, you know, and it just -- he said, I didn't mean it, even though what he said was very plain and even though his hometown paper said he meant it.


CARLSON: Well what do you want? At some point, you have got to take the man at his word. He said it was a stupid thing to say. It was. We can leave it there.


Yes?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Scott Farbish (ph) from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Al Gore has changed his image more times than Madonna. Do we really want such an indecisive man being the leader of the free world?


CARLSON: I don't think you need to worry about that. That's not going to happen.


BEGALA: Well apparently not as long as Chief Justice Rehnquist is on the bench stealing elections for George W. Bush. I hope -- if Gore decides to runs, I hope he beats Bush by so much that even Rehnquist can't stop him.


CARLSON: And let the record show I hope he runs too. Good luck, Al Gore.


BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. Tune in on January 23 to see Al Gore here on CROSSFIRE.


CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Have a great weekend. We'll be back Monday. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins immediately.


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