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CNN Crossfire

Lott May Be Losing Friends in the Senate; Can Republicans Get Black Votes?

Aired December 19, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carlisle and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: finding out who his friends really are.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that they were a poor choice of words.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am prepared to listen some more to what he has to say.

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ANNOUNCER: Does the Republican leader have a lot of support? We'll ask Senator Arleen Specter.

And, after Lott's remarks, can the Republican Party successfully reach out to black voters?

Plus, we'll gang up on the guy who says, "It's Still The Economy, Stupid."

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight, Trent Lott is finding out who his friends really are. And apparently they're not in the White House. But George W. Bush doesn't get to vote on who should be the Senate's Republican leader. Tonight we'll talk to a Senator who does.

Plus, both of CROSSFIRE's hosts on the right are getting ready to gang up on the devilishly handsome author of "It's Still The Economy, Stupid." Both Tucker and Bob against me. It seems kind of like the odds are about right. Liberal ideas are, in fact, twice as strong as conservative. So it should be a good balance. But first, the best little political briefing in television: our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

The Bush administration today condemned Iraq's arms declaration as fraudulent, and pronounced Saddam Hussein in material breach of UN resolutions. Secretary of State Colin Powell said, the Iraqi declaration "fails totally." So game over. We start the bombing in five minutes, right? Well, apparently not.

The same president who pronounced a zero tolerance policy toward Iraqi non-compliance, the same man who called Saddam Hussein a rabid animal whose head should be chopped off, now says they're going to wait until January, maybe even February, to make a decision about going to war. Now, as one who worries that a war with Iraq will distract and detract from the more important war against al Qaeda, I salute President Bush's prudence on this. But you gotta wonder why Mr. Bush rammed a war resolution through Congress with such speed but now is suddenly going slow. Can it be because there's not an election coming up?

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: You know, Paul, I've been -- I've grown very accustomed to your basic unfairness to President Bush. I'd be disappointed if you didn't. But the idea -- this is just incredible. If he had come out and said, we're going to start the war tomorrow, you'd be attacking him. If he says he's not going to start the war tomorrow you're going to be attacking him. There's nothing he can do that will please you.

BEGALA: You're right, because he politically manipulated this back in November and that has caused me not to trust him anymore.

NOVAK: I'm glad you're in this Christmas season. You're taking some truth serum.

The 51 Republican senators, they'll determine whether Trent Lott survives as Senate majority leader, and their support for him eroded today. Congressman Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma said of Lott, "His ability as a leader dissipates on a daily basis."

Another conservative, Craig Thomas of Wyoming said, "I don't condone what he did, and I'm not opposed to change either." Sources tell CNN Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee has started sounding out his Republican colleagues about a possible bid to replace Lott. And CNN has learned that Senator John Warner of Virginia plans to endorse Senator Frist to replace Senator Lott, just in a few minutes.

Now just like Harry Truman said, "If you want a friend in Washington, buy a dog." Particularly if you're a Republican. Every Senator I talk to says it's unfair to Lott. He's no racist. But in the words of John F. Kennedy, "Life is unfair, especially in Washington."

BEGALA: It really is. This is an astonishing thing. When you have John Lewis, the living saint of the civil rights movement, whose head was bashed in by George Wallace's thugs, willing to accept Lott's apology and move on, and Jim Inhofe, who still thinks the Martin Luther King holiday is a bad idea, all of a sudden wants to dump Lott, it's outrageous. It really is. And I think very hypocritical for the Republicans.

Well a new poll released today by "The Washington Post" and ABC News says an overwhelming margin of Americans say it's more important for the government to spend money on needed services than to cut taxes. President Bush is proposing to cut low-income programs by 4.6 percent below current levels, when you adjust for inflation, so he can pay for his massive tax cut for the rich.

He's also draining Social Security in order to pay for that tax cut. And despite yesterday's "Los Angeles Times" poll that said 77 percent of the American people would freeze the Bush tax cuts if they drained Social Security surplus, which they do. Mr. Bush seems unaffected by the fact that the vast majority of Americans disagree with his economic policies. After all, the majority of Americans wanted Al Gore to be president, too. And in George Bush's America, majority doesn't rule.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, majority -- in a poll if you said, if you cut taxes, everybody's going to get ringworm, I think people will be against taxes, as well. But the real fact of the matter is, the only poll that counts, which was on November 5, 2002, people voted against the taxers and for the tax cutters.

As governor of Maryland, liberal Democrat Paris Glendening ended up as one of the most unpopular politicians in the state's history. So unpopular that in this overwhelmingly Democratic state of Maryland, Democrat Kathleen Kennedy Townssend, Bob Kennedy's daughter, lost her race to succeed Glendening. Instead, Robert Ehrlich, a Republican, is going to become Maryland's first Republican governor since 1966.

Ehrlich faces a budget crisis, but Glendening is making it worse, spending money as fast as he can. "The Washington Post" called it a last-minute spending spree. Democratic state controller Donald Shaffer (ph), a former governor, called it "... the dirtiest trick I've ever known any governor to do." You know, Glendening may keep the Republicans in power in Maryland for a long time.

BEGALA: I agree with you. I think he cost Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, a fine woman, that election. But it shouldn't be so difficult for Ehrlich. He's against government spending. It should be very easy for him to cut the spending. Let's see him put his money where his mouth is.

NOVAK: Even though he's put all this spending in at the last minute?

BEGALA: But Ehrlich hates it. He should be -- it should be easy to cut. Let's see how Ehrlich handles the budget.

NOVAK: Your disingenuous.

BEGALA: No.

NOVAK: Yes you are. BEGALA: He says he's against government spending.

Well, if you're looking for a book for your holiday reading list, our friend Lloyd Grove (ph) of "The Washington Post," reliable source column, has a suggestion in today's newspaper. "Secrets of the Tomb" is an expose of Skull and Bones, the secret society that George W. Bush joined back when he was at Yale. The author, a Yaley (ph) herself, told "The Post," "The whole purpose of Skull and Bones is to elevate its members to power and wealth. I think if people across the country were to read my book they'd be quite dismayed that the president is a member of a secret society and that he has some sort of allegiance to this secret group."

Of course, you don't need to read "Secrets of the Tomb" to know that W.'s devoted to protecting privileged and screwing working people. Just read his economic plan.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, the -- it was really shocking that some discontented Yale woman couldn't get in Skull and Bones and she's all upset. But I say Skull and Bones can't be such a bad organization. I don't think they'd let you in either.

BEGALA: That's a pretty good point.

NOVAK: Kentucky's Democratic Governor Paul Patton has had quite a year. He ruined his political career and ended his plans for a Senate campaign by lying about a sexual relationship with a woman who claims he intimidated her with government power. This week, Governor Patton opened a new door in budget cutting. Facing a $500 million state budget deficit, he suddenly ordered the release of 567 Kentucky state prison inmates. Part of a plan to cut $6 million from the state correctional budget.

Three hundred and sixty-three walked out yesterday to start the parade. Mostly drug traffickers, drug users and thieves. But the governor kept sex offenders behind bars. He's sensitive about those things.

BEGALA: Well, you know all the states are in a fiscal bind, all of them. And it's going to hamper law enforcement all across the country. And, again, one way to get out of this is if the Feds picked up more of the Medicaid costs that they're shifting down to the states, but they can't do it because of Bush's tax cut. Once again, Bush's tax cut is what released those prisoners.

NOVAK: The state governors know they can't raise taxes if people don't want them. They want the Feds to bail them out. But I'm going to tell you a little secret. They're not going to get bailed out by the federal government.

BEGALA: You're right, because Bush squandered the tax cut.

NOVAK: And thank goodness.

Next in the CROSSFIRE, one of the few Republicans willing to publicly defend Senator Trent Lott. Then we'll ask whether the GOP will ever be able to attract black voters off the Democratic plantation.

And later, for you all last-minute Christmas shoppers, a gift suggestion for everyone on your enemies list.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Plenty of people are counting down the shopping days until Christmas, but for Trent Lott, the big date is a little farther off. On January 6, his Republican colleagues are scheduled to decide whether they want to keep him as Senate leader. We've called every Republican senator in the book, and the only one brave enough, smart enough to step into the CROSSFIRE joins us from Philadelphia. Please welcome Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Senator Specter, thank you very much for joining us. I know it's a busy time for you and it's a difficult topic. So I do salute your courage in coming forward.

CNN has learned from our ace team of reporters on Capitol Hill that, within this hour, your colleague, Senator John Warner of Virginia, is going to publicly call for Senator Bill Frist of Tennesseee to be the new leader of your party in the Senate to replace Trent Lott. Your response, sir?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I think it's a little premature to pick a new leader when we have a leader in Senator Lott. We're scheduled to have a meeting to discuss the matter. I think that we ought to give Senator Lott an opportunity to be heard by his 50 Republican colleagues to outline his position, and to give him the courtesy of that hearing before we start picking the successor.

BEGALA: In fact, don't you think in that meeting there may be a bit of acrimony, when some of the criticism, according to news accounts, has come from some of your colleagues? And let me name names. Senator Conrad Burns of Montana, who in a "New York Times" column today, Bob Herbert (ph) claims has used much more racially offensive language than any that Trent Lott ever used. If people like that are criticizing him now, isn't that going to make a very acrimonious meeting, and don't they look a little hypocritical, Senator?

SPECTER: Well, I don't think it's going to be acrimonious. We have a way of getting together to discuss things. I believe we're going to look at the very basics of it. And I've known Trent Lott for 14 years, and I can personally attest to the fact that he's not a racist or bigot.

There's no doubt that what he said was foolish to the extreme. But, what has happened here is that it has uncovered the veil and brought into sharp focus the unfairness in America for more than 200 years with slavery, with segregation, and with racism. And what I'm looking for here, gentlemen, is to make a positive out of this. It's a wake-up call, not only for Trent Lott, but it can be a wake-up call for the Republican caucus and the Republican Party that we ought to be paying more attention to civil rights.

We have a big case out of the University of Michigan. I wrote to the president a couple of days ago urging the president to take a position that racial diversity is a significant governmental factor. We ought to be moving to pass hate crimes legislation. And I think Senator Lott could turn out to be a born-again civil rightist. But at a very minimum, at a very minimum, he deserves a chance to be heard before people start talking about replacements.

NOVAK: Senator Specter, what -- I've been on the phone to several of your colleagues, some of whom I thought were as supportive, at least as supportive of Senator Lott as you are. And I just found a lot of people saying off with his head. What do you think Senator Lott can do, should do to save himself?

SPECTER: I think that Senator Lott ought to recreate what happened when he was at the birthday party for Senator Thurmond, the emotional setting. I was there. I didn't stay for the speeches. I had to catch a train for Philadelphia.

But, the place was loaded with emotion. And Senator Lott tried to say something to flatter Strom and to say something pleasing to the crowd. And then I think Trent ought to look the 50 of us in the eye and say, you know me. Do you think that I'm a racist? Do you think that I'm a bigot?

You thought I was an effective leader when you re-elected me a short time ago. And I'm prepared to say what is obvious, and that is that we all talk too much. We all say foolish things from time to time. And Trent doesn't deserve the death penalty.

NOVAK: Senator, Congressman John Lewis, a Democrat of Georgia, a great hero of the civil rights movement many years ago, Paul mentioned him, two days ago, he said this: He said about Trent Lott, "I'd to come down on his side giving him a chance. I'm not one of those calling for him to step down and give up his leadership post. We all make mistakes, we all make blunders. It's very much in keeping with the philosophy and discipline of non-violence to forgive and move on."

Now my question to you, Senator, is why is it that a civil rights hero like John Lewis can forgive, but these neo-con columnists, who are mostly interested in attacking Iraq, immediately, within days after this controversy started, demanded Senator Lott's resignation?

SPECTER: Well, when you talk about the media, and you talk about the columnists, this feeds into a controversy and perhaps makes interesting reading. Although I do believe there are a lot more important things we could be considering than having this on the front pages and the top of radio and television. But I think Congressman Lewis is a very decent guy, and he has it in perspective.

When you take a look at the fact that Lyndon Johnson for 20 years in the House of Representatives and in the Senate voted against every civil rights bill, and yet came to be the great leader for the civil rights act of 1964, I think that Trent Lott could turn out to be a great benefactor for minorities and for African-Americans. And I compliment John Lewis for the candor to speak up.

BEGALA: And I will add, by the way, my partner on the left, James Carville, was so moved by Congressman Lewis' remarks that he, too, said he forgives him. I mean, he's a much smaller player than a guy like John Lewis, but I still think it's significant. And I extend that in relief against -- you talk about Lyndon Johnson. Our current president is also from Texas, but he's no Lyndon Johnson. It seems to me that Bush has...

SPECTER: Thank goodness.

BEGALA: Well, I think it's a shame, because he's been remarkably two-faced about this. You know he went to Bob Jones University, which practices racial discrimination, tells kids they shouldn't date each other if they're of different races, and has a virulently anti- Catholic...

NOVAK: Not anymore.

BEGALA: Well, they rescinded, then they replaced it. And they have a virulently anti-Catholic bigotry at that university.

NOVAK: Not any more.

BEGALA: Bush apologized for that and his apology was accepted. Why doesn't Bush accept Senator Lott's apology?

SPECTER: Well, I think that President Bush has accepted Senator Lott's apology. He appeared here in Philadelphia a week ago. I was in the audience. He castigated. He condemned what Trent said.

And Senator Lott accepted that. And then President Bush's spokesmen has said that Senator Lott ought to stay on. So, I think that President Bush certainly hasn't said he hasn't accepted his apology. And the statement that he ought to stay on is a good inference that he has accepted it.

NOVAK: We just have a few seconds, Senator. Do you think the president in his speech in Philadelphia would have been well advised to say one or two good words about Trent Lott's many years of service to this country and his party?

SPECTER: I think that the president acted properly in focusing on the issue. I think that this is a matter of great importance to the party. And I think the president hit the right tone.

It was prearranged that there would be an announcement by his spokesman afterward, that the president thought Senator Lott should stay on. And that's a pretty good endorsement. And I think the president did the right thing.

BEGALA: Well, Senator Arlen Specter, you did the right thing, first, by coming on. But also, I always admire a guy who stands by his friend when he's in trouble. So, Senator Arlen Specter, a good guy out of Pennsylvania, thank you for joining us, sir.

NOVAK: Thank you, senator.

BEGALA: Next: can the GOP ever attract black voters? Next on CROSSFIRE we will debate how badly the Republicans have been hurt by Trent Lott's comments and by their 30-year strategy of courting southern white voters by playing footsie with the issue of race.

And later, a holiday gift for everyone on your shopping list. Bob Novak and Tucker Carlson are both going to try to gang up on the author of an important new book on the economy. You won't want to miss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Not so long ago, Republicans were seen as the party for civil rights, the party of Lincoln. Democrats, especially southern Democrats, were the obstructionists. Times have changed.

Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate which party has betrayed the most black voters, Eleanor Holmes Norton, the District of Columbia's delegate to the House of Representatives. She's a Democrat. And with her is Ohio Secretary of State, Republican Ken Blackwell.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thank you both for joining us. Mr. Secretary, it's always good to see you again.

: Always good to see you, Paul.

BEGALA: Let me begin with a rather stunning recitation of the modern Republican record on race. Bob is exactly right, in the sweep of history, my party was the racist party in the south for 100 years. But President Johnson from my state of Texas turned us to the light.

And lately, the Republicans, while never being as validly racist as the Democrats were 100 years ago, have been playing footsie. And here's how "Newsweek" summarized that sordid record. "Trent Lott," -- "Newsweek" writes this week -- "was not the only modern Republican to play the race card. In 1980, Reagan talked about states' rights in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And his well-worn anecdote about a Chicago welfare queen was not a particularly subtle allusion to African- Americans."

"In 1988, a group sympathetic to George Bush's presidential campaign produced the Willie Horton ad, attacking Michael Dukakis' furlough program. And when George W. Bush was on the run from John McCain in the early 2000 presidential race, he went to the fundamentalist Bob Jones University in South Carolina to shore up his base."

That's a pretty sordid record for your party lately, isn't it, sir? KEN BLACKWELL (R), OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE: Well let me tell you this, what I find absolutely amazing. We have hundreds of thousands of kids locked into dysfunctional schools and George Bush has, in fact, advanced a strategy to liberate them from those underperforming, dysfunctional schools. There are folks on the left and in the Democratic Party who, in fact, have given in to the tyranny of the NEA, who, in fact, will stop that liberation and that education process.

George Bush has advanced -- George Bush has advanced a program of reforming a bankrupt conceptually and monetarily Social Security system that would establish a property right so that people, minorities, particularly African-Americans and Latinos, who, in fact, suffer from an asset gap, could begin to close that gap. The new civil rights movement in this country is one of economic fairness and opportunity. And George Bush is a leader in that regard.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Eleanor Holmes Norton, I just want to point out that you better be careful, because you're my representative in Congress, you know.

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), DC DELEGATE: That's a stain on my reputation. But I'm glad to have him. I've got Republicans and Democrats. I've got lots of Republican votes in the district. Go ahead, sir.

NOVAK: Well, there wasn't any opponent, that's why. Ms. Norton, the word racism is just thrown around a lot. There's a great debate in this country over "affirmative action" quotas; what the government should do to help along minority groups, particularly African- Americans. Just because they've just -- I may disagree with you on that question, that doesn't make me a racist, does it?

HOLMES NORTON: Absolutely not. And, by the way, you quoted me in your column recently, indicating that I had said that I knew Trent Lott, worked with him in the Senate, he'd never shown any racism toward me. I would repeat that. No, I don't go -- I don't use the race card, I don't throw it around.

What is important about this controversy is not that Trent Lott has opposed affirmative action. So has Thad Cochran (ph). Why do a third of the blacks in Mississippi vote for Thad Cochran (ph), but only 11 percent vote for Trent Lott? Part of this is race.

There's no question that the reason that my opponent here didn't answer your question on race is he ain't got no answer on race. So that's why he changed the subject to education, the Leave No Child Behind Bill, which has -- which the president refused to fund. And don't believe that African-Americans don't understand this.

What this is, though, it is race and it is economic policy and it is social policy. It is privatizing Social Security. You do not speak for the majority of African-Americans...

BLACKWELL: Oh, yes I do.

HOLMES NORTON: ... when you talk about that one.

BLACKWELL: Yes I do. Look at the polls.

HOLMES NORTON: It is tax cuts for the rich. It is going home, even in the lame duck session, without expanding unemployment benefits. Those are gut issues.

BLACKWELL: Look, what the Democrats fear most is our effort to reconstruct a competitive two-party system in the African-American and Latino communities. It is a gradual process, but it is, in fact, working. Go to the Joint Center for Political Studies. See what the majority of blacks say when it comes to the asset gap, and they want a property right, you know, when they -- the fruits of their labor is -- are laws in a tax transfer system called the Social Security system.

They want something that they can pass on to their children after working generations, you know, very, very hard. Let me just finish. Paul, you know, one of the things that has happened in the last few years is that Bill Clinton and the Democrats think that they have a lock on the African-American vote.

Bill Clinton yesterday was walking around talking about, you know, this Lott episode pulls the sheet off the entire Republican Party. Just think about that. Bill Clinton talking about sheets. That doesn't conjure up -- that doesn't conjure up a real good image. Let me tell you, Paul, what it does...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Here's a guy who ran his entire presidency under the sheets.

BEGALA: You're much better than that, Ken. I've known you a long time, you're much better than that. And the fact that a man of your intellect and brilliance has to stoop to that suggests you have a weak argument.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Let me show you the Bush record on civil rights. He was the governor of my state of Texas. Six of his citizens were murdered in a church outside of Fort Worth. He went to their funeral, he comforted their families. God bless him for doing that.

When James Byrd (ph) was dragged to his death, he refused to attend the funeral, he refused to support the James Byrd (ph) hate crimes act, he went to speak at Bob Jones University, he refused to speak out on the confederal flag in South Carolina. He campaigned in Georgia for Sonny Perdue, who was running on the Georgia flag.

In my home state of Texas, his party called our ticket, led by a black man, Ron Kirk (ph), a Hispanic man, Tony Sanchez (ph), a racial quota ticket. That's the Bush record on civil rights. Maybe that's why he doesn't get the nine percent of the black vote. BLACKWELL: George Bush said something that was very, very clear. He said that, in his estimation, the most important flag in the United States of America was Old Glory. Secondly, what he said was that he was going to be fully behind -- and he was -- the prosecution and the -- the successful prosecution of the murderers of James Byrd. Why don't you mention that?

NOVAK: We have less than a minute. I want to ask you, if you agree with President Clinton that all of the Republicans are -- he said they took the hood off, that they have gotten their effectiveness in the South, they have become the great party in the South just because they're bigots and racists. Do you believe that?

NORTON: That's not what he said. You've misquoted me, you misquoted him.

What the -- this president yesterday was speaking as a Southerner, who saw the Southern strategy in operation.

NOVAK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) race card. Wasn't he?

NORTON: Who plays the race card when you go to Bob Jones University but the great unifyer himself, Mr. Bush.

NOVAK: Has he been there lately? Go ahead. All right.

Iraq is in plenty of hot water. But will it come down to war? Connie Chung recaps today's developments next in a CNN "News Alert."

And later something for your Christmas stocking that's even nastier than a lump of coal. Tucker Carlson and I will happily pile on our friend Paul Begala coming up.

Thank you Eleanor Holmes Norton. Thank you, Ken Blackwell.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: In just a minute, I'll be joined by my co-host on the right, Tucker Carlson. The time has finally come for both of us to settle a score or two with a certain outrageous author on the left.

Later, "Our Quote of the Day" proves you can always believe what the White House is saying, I guess.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

For weeks now Paul Begala has used every excuse, often no excuse, to shamelessly promote his new book entitled, "It's Still The Economy, Stupid." It may just as well be called, "It's Still The Tax Loving Liberal Left, Stupid."

So tonight, Tucker Carlson joins me. We're going to put Paul Begala and his screwy stupid book in the CROSSFIRE. At last. BEGALA: Excellent. Well thank you for that lovely, gracious introduction.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Paul, thank you for joining us.

BEGALA: Yes, sir, thank you.

CARLSON: I actually read your book, got so mad I yelled at the dog by the end. I agreed with your acknowledgments, they were fantastic. Actually it was very clever, your book. And it makes the bottomline argument it seems to me is that Bush has wrecked the economy.

BEGALA: He's done all he can. There are externalities that affected it. We were in trouble when he came into office. It's true Clinton didn't repeal the business cycle. It is true 9/11 did us grievous damage. But when you see a drowning man you don't throw him a anvil.

And that's what Bush did. His economic policy took a bad situation made it much, much worse.

CARLSON: But you say it's much, much worse. I just want to finish my thought here and have you respond to it.

Average people don't seem to agree with you. A lot of polling on this. A lot of polling on this. I want to hit you with two of them. The first poll, CNN/"TIME" poll, asked people about your financial situation. Seventy-seven percent of Americans say their financial situation is good.

Next poll, which was taken this week, asked Americans, What do you think the effect of the Bush White House is going to be on the economy for next year? Sixty-five percent of Americans think next year's going to be even better than it is this year.

So your premise is wrong, isn't it?

BEGALA: No, people are always hopeful at the Christmas season. But we just had a poll --- two polls came out this week -- two polls came out this week. Both of them said overwhelmingly that people would rather have the government invest in things that make us safer and smarter and stronger than give another big tax cut to the rich. They didn't ask it the way I would have with that loaded language. They asked it very neutral.

Both "The Los Angeles Times" poll and "The Washington Post"/ABC poll asked people about economic issues. All of them come down on my side. Why didn't the party win the recent election? Because they didn't campaign on my book. They didn't campaign Democratic economic issues. They ran around saying, Oh, I'm for Bush's tax cut, too.

NOVAK: Paul, I know it's bad form to ask authors how they write their book. But as I read your book, I found so much deja vu of stuff I had heard on the campaign trail this year. Did you run around campaign boiler rooms and pick up the unused parts of their speeches and paste them together? Was that the way you put the book together?

BEGALA: No, no, no. I've written a lot of speeches for a lot of politicians.

NOVAK: And they sound like it in this book.

BEGALA: What's unusual about this book and, I think, as a scholar yourself is it's meticulously footnoted. There are 622 footnotes. You don't find that in most of the right wing diatribes. You may not agree with what it says but it's carefully researched and carefully footnoted.

NOVAK: Here's a thing that offends some people. It offends me, to tell you the truth.

BEGALA: I hate to offend you, Bob.

NOVAK: You call the president stupid.

BEGALA: Oh, no, no, no.

NOVAK: That's what the reference to. You call him during the whole time -- you call him Junior.

BEGALA: He is. He's not senior. He's junior. You got to distinguish him from his father.

NOVAK: He's not a junior. He's not George W.H. Bush -- George Jr. And you don't -- And you treat him with such disrespect. Do you think that's funny, or...

BEGALA: I think politicians should be laughed at. I actually know Bush a little bit and I think he's a good guy.

NOVAK: Why should they be laughed at?

BEGALA: Well, maybe you lack a sense of humor, Bob. We can treat that, you know, these days.

The title comes, of course, from a very famous sign that my pal Carville put up in the war room, It's the economy stupid. And my point is, "It is Still The Economy Stupid."

If I wanted to make it about bush, I would say "It's Still The Economy and He's Still Stupid." But I do not actually believe that.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But what if it's still the stupid analysis of the economy, and that is what the "Austin American Statesman" essentially said of your book in a review. I just want to read you one part which I think gets right to the core problem with the book, "Begala assumes that Clinton economic policies will work in any time and place. He ignores the critical fact that the economic boom didn't ignite until two years after Clinton got his deficit reducing budget through Congress. It took technological advances, private sector advances to spur amazingly productivity increases and allow the Federal Reserve to repeatedly lower interest rates."

So the bottom line here is, ordinary Americans innovating and working hard are responsible for the boom under the Clinton administration.

BEGALA: Duh. Duh. But...

CARLSON: Then why do you give Clinton credit for it?

BEGALA: Let me finish the answer. Duh.

But were they stupid under Bush? Were they stupid under Reagan? Were they lazy under Bush? No. Clinton -- government policies matter. And Clinton removed this god-awful Reagan/Bush deficit, paid it down and then invested in things like education to make people smarter. And that's what triggered the boom.

He liberalized capital markets, right"? He allowed -- pulled the government out of borrowing all that money to pay off the debt. Allowed entrepreneurs then to borrow money so they could apply their genius and expertise.

To believe your theory, you have that believe people were stupid when Reagan and Bush were president. They were not.

CARLSON: We don't have time, unfortunately, to deconstruct every misleading thing that you have just said. But let's just take one.

BEGALA: It's all factual.

CARLSON: You just said that President Clinton invested in education, thereby making people smarter, thereby spurring the economy on to greater growth.

Are you saying that in the space of eight years, Bill Clinton was responsible for educating people who then left school, entered the workplace, innovated, created new products, and then spurred the economy? That's ludicrous.

BEGALA: Some. Things like working skills matter, Tucker. Job skills matter. When you give people education and training, it has an enormous, enormous effect. Yes, it does.

So yes, more people got education than ever before. More people got job training. More people got retraining.

CARLSON: So Clinton created the Internet, is what you're saying.

BEGALA: That's silly, Tucker. Actually the government did and I'm glad that the government did. But no, it was investing in people, and reducing the deficit, reversing the entire Reagan?bush economic team...

NOVAK: I feel constrained to give the viewers a taste...

BEGALA: Please do.

NOVAK: ... of the Begala theory. We're going to turn to page 44. Put it up on the screen.

BEGALA: It's a great page.

NOVAK: "If you want to save Social Security without cutting benefits, without raising payroll takes, without funding Social Security and the deficits, without gambling Granny's retirement on Kenny-Boy Lay's latest Wall Street scheme, there's really only one option: repeal the as yet unrealized portions of the Bush tax cut."

Are you -- are you really -- no serious person could say that, that the problems of the Social Security system going bust 30 years from now are going to be solved by not giving the American -- the successful American people the tax cut they've been promised?

BEGALA: Let me tell you who says it. A guy named Peter Orzack (ph), a top Treasury official in the Clinton administration, studied this for the Center On Budget and Policy Projects.

This is what he found. Over 75 years, the shortfall in Social Security is enormous: $3.7 trillion. You know what the Bush tax cut is? Over $8 trillion.

So you could solve the entire Social Security deficit and still have $5 trillion left over to do better things to make our country stronger.

NOVAK: That's sheer nonsense.

BEGALA: That's absolutely true.

NOVAK: Let me use a poll. CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll asked on September 20, Should we allow workers to put social security taxes into stocks and bonds? This is the thing that all the Democratic demagogues or the demagogic Democrats have been screaming about.

Let's look at what the result was. Favor that, 52 percent. Oppose it, only 43 percent. What do you make of that?

BEGALA: Well you know what they don't tell them? They don't tell them that in every one of the proposals in Bush's commission, benefits would be cut. Guaranteed benefits are cut in every Bush proposal. And they don't tell us it costs between 1 and $2 trillion to do it. And where is the money going to come from? Do we have a spare trillion dollars to move from one system to another?

CARLSON: Paul, let me ask you this. This a little bit off topic but it gets to something I wanted to ask you for a long time. You say in the book, as...

BEGALA: I'm married.

CARLSON: Well, that's an after show discussion.

BEGALA: Sorry.

CARLSON: You've said many times on this show, you've said Clinton -- rather President Bush wants to poison America's children by putting arsenic in the water.

You make the point that the president, when he came in, suspended a rule that the Clinton administration put lowering the amount of arsenic allowable in water.

Here's my question. That rule was put in by the Clinton administration literally in the last week of power. So if it was such a great idea, the environmental lobby had been pushing for it for 10 years, why did he wait until the last week?

BEGALA: It was actually the result of a 10-year study that Bush senior had begun. These things take an enormous amount of time. You don't want to rush them in. It was a 10-year program.

Finally, in the book I say Bush does not want to poison children, but he took that bad policy because he's bought off campaign contributors.

NOVAK: Paul! I don't have to be polite to you. We're out of time. Thank you. Thank you Tucker Carlson.

CARLSON: Bob, it was nice to see you.

NOVAK: I appreciate it.

In a little bit, our viewers get a turn to "Fireback" at us. And at least one of them is willing to forgive Trent Lott. Too bad she isn't a Republican senator.

But next, a "Quote of the Day" reveals what they do, and don't pay attention to at the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Because of CNN's commitment to bringing you breaking news we've decided to make "Our Quote Of The Day" a breaking news story.

The quote was spoken just seconds ago. We're going to scrap the quote we were going to use and show you Senator John Warner, a Republican of Virginia, a very senior member of the United States Senate, making a rather remarkable announcement just seconds ago. Here is our CROSSFIRE "Quote of the Day."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: Well, I'm pleased to join the Bill Frist team, and I can assure you the team is growing in numbers very quickly. And I think it is in the best interest of the Congress that the Republican caucus have a choice. As Don Nickles...

(END VIDEO CLIP) BEGALA: That's a remarkable development, Bob.

NOVAK: It was very interesting. John Warner was one of the first ones to call for the conference so he could discuss this matter. I guess he felt on second thoughts he didn't need to discuss it. He was going to move real fast.

BEGALA: Warner's a very serious guy. I mean a lot of these people I like to make fun of as crackpots. Warner's not one of them. This is a very bad sign for Lott. I joined the people like Carville and John Lewis who want to forgive him and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) keeping his job. But when he loses John Warner, that's a bad sign.

NOVAK: Don't count Bill Frist as likely yet.

BEGALA: I won't. I'll take your advice. You've covered this a lot longer than me.

Many of our viewers were moved by my friend James Carville's decision to forgive Senator Lott. We'll give them a chance to "Fireback" in just a minute. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: It's "Fireback," when the viewers "Fireback" at us.

First, Kent Bailey of Richmond, Virginia says, "Way to go, Bob Novak. Morally standing up to Jesse Jackson is really easy when you realize that he actually has a pair of deuces down while giving the impression of a handful of aces. Thanks for calling his bluff."

You know, Kent, even the old prince of darkness likes a kind word now and then.

BEGALA: You're deserving. But I love Jesse Jackson and I actually thought he was right in that debate.

Ethan Rogers from Los Angeles writes, "The big reason to forgive Lott is simple: so we can resume talking about other important issues -- i.e. the economy and foreign policy."

Ethan, I actually agree with you. He's right. That's what we ought to be talking about. We've got 800,000 Americans about to lose their employment benefits because Lott and Bush wouldn't renew them.

NOVAK: I'd rather talk about tax cuts.

This is David Hopsin of Belleville, Michigan. "Last night was the first time that I did not wish that Carville's mouth would get stuck shut! It took a great deal of courage and open-mindedness for him to accept Senator Lott's apology."

David, I hope you're right, but with James, I always look for an ulterior motive and I think I found one.

BEGALA: What? NOVAK: I think he just wants to smear the whole party. Doesn't want to just put the blame on Trent.

BEGALA: No, I like the whole rest of the party to apologize for their racial politics.

NOVAK: See. That's what you guys are up to.

BEGALA: No. I genuinely forgive the guy. If anybody on the right had ever forgiven Clinton, it would have been a remarkable thing but that's not in their heart on the right.

Irma Robinson, Marysville, California says, "I'm glad Mr. Carville has accepted Senator Lott's apology. As an African-American, I too have accepted his apology, because I believe he has learned from his mistakes."

Irma, that is exactly what Arlen Specter said at the beginning. He called for support of affirmative action and for other things to help African-Americans, Specter did. I hope Lott follows suit.

NOVAK: But the right-wingers turned against him immediately. And that's an interesting story in itself.

First question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Billy Miller from Washington Grove, Maryland. I want to know why the Democratic Party is so aggressively attacking Senator Lott? Shouldn't they be focusing on trying to build an agenda instead of tearing down the Republican Party?

BEGALA: In truth, it's the Republicans, sir, who actually are attacking him. We just saw John Warner, earlier it was Jim Inhofe, Jim Sensenbrenner -- a man, Congressman from Wisconsin who voted against the King Holiday -- today attacked him.

It's John Lewis, James Carville, people like me. We have offered forgiveness to him and are ready to move on.

NOVAK: The question is what happens to the Republican courage now on important issues like racial quotas and judicial appointments? And that's what worries me.

Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Brendan White from Silver Spring, Maryland. As a young black voter I'd like to know that when Republicans will realize that shallow attempts to get black votes won't work.

You need to pay attention to issues that blacks care about, inner city poverty, social spending, and other issues like that. Only when Republicans, through a slip of the tongue, reveal their ignorance about black issues, does this take hold of the public attention.

But Republican ignorance of minority issues is something that's happening every day.

NOVAK: I think it's very sad when blacks say that we have special issues that are different from the rest of the people in the country. I think that a strong economy, a individual freedom and less government regulation benefits all people, blacks and whites.

BEGALA: I say it depends on the economic policy. This young man knows a lot.

When President Reagan presided over an economic boom only 70,000 people were lifted out of poverty. Under president Clinton's 8 million were. That's the difference between a broad based economic growth and one that only helps the rich. That's why Democrats earn African-American votes.

NOVAK: Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Pat Busher from Bethesda, Maryland. I was wondering, now that Al Gore has stepped down from the presidential race who you think is going to win the Democratic presidential nomination? And do you think that person has a chance against George Bush?

NOVAK: Well, I think that anybody has a better chance against George Bush than Al Gore. And Republicans are all praying for Gore to win.

My choice as the guy who symbolizes the Democratic party would be the Reverend Al Sharpton. I think he really would be a fine candidate.

BEGALA: I have to stay out of it because I want to suck up to all of them. All of them have come on this show. If they're tough enough to stand up to Novak they'll be tough enough to stand up to Bush.

Except for Joe Lieberman and John Edwards. Two very good men. They're scared of Novak, they're scared of Tucker. I don't know. If they were tough enough to come on CROSSFIRE maybe they'd be tough enough to beat Bush.

From the left I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

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Aired December 19, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carlisle and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: finding out who his friends really are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that they were a poor choice of words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am prepared to listen some more to what he has to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Does the Republican leader have a lot of support? We'll ask Senator Arleen Specter.

And, after Lott's remarks, can the Republican Party successfully reach out to black voters?

Plus, we'll gang up on the guy who says, "It's Still The Economy, Stupid."

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight, Trent Lott is finding out who his friends really are. And apparently they're not in the White House. But George W. Bush doesn't get to vote on who should be the Senate's Republican leader. Tonight we'll talk to a Senator who does.

Plus, both of CROSSFIRE's hosts on the right are getting ready to gang up on the devilishly handsome author of "It's Still The Economy, Stupid." Both Tucker and Bob against me. It seems kind of like the odds are about right. Liberal ideas are, in fact, twice as strong as conservative. So it should be a good balance. But first, the best little political briefing in television: our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

The Bush administration today condemned Iraq's arms declaration as fraudulent, and pronounced Saddam Hussein in material breach of UN resolutions. Secretary of State Colin Powell said, the Iraqi declaration "fails totally." So game over. We start the bombing in five minutes, right? Well, apparently not.

The same president who pronounced a zero tolerance policy toward Iraqi non-compliance, the same man who called Saddam Hussein a rabid animal whose head should be chopped off, now says they're going to wait until January, maybe even February, to make a decision about going to war. Now, as one who worries that a war with Iraq will distract and detract from the more important war against al Qaeda, I salute President Bush's prudence on this. But you gotta wonder why Mr. Bush rammed a war resolution through Congress with such speed but now is suddenly going slow. Can it be because there's not an election coming up?

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: You know, Paul, I've been -- I've grown very accustomed to your basic unfairness to President Bush. I'd be disappointed if you didn't. But the idea -- this is just incredible. If he had come out and said, we're going to start the war tomorrow, you'd be attacking him. If he says he's not going to start the war tomorrow you're going to be attacking him. There's nothing he can do that will please you.

BEGALA: You're right, because he politically manipulated this back in November and that has caused me not to trust him anymore.

NOVAK: I'm glad you're in this Christmas season. You're taking some truth serum.

The 51 Republican senators, they'll determine whether Trent Lott survives as Senate majority leader, and their support for him eroded today. Congressman Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma said of Lott, "His ability as a leader dissipates on a daily basis."

Another conservative, Craig Thomas of Wyoming said, "I don't condone what he did, and I'm not opposed to change either." Sources tell CNN Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee has started sounding out his Republican colleagues about a possible bid to replace Lott. And CNN has learned that Senator John Warner of Virginia plans to endorse Senator Frist to replace Senator Lott, just in a few minutes.

Now just like Harry Truman said, "If you want a friend in Washington, buy a dog." Particularly if you're a Republican. Every Senator I talk to says it's unfair to Lott. He's no racist. But in the words of John F. Kennedy, "Life is unfair, especially in Washington."

BEGALA: It really is. This is an astonishing thing. When you have John Lewis, the living saint of the civil rights movement, whose head was bashed in by George Wallace's thugs, willing to accept Lott's apology and move on, and Jim Inhofe, who still thinks the Martin Luther King holiday is a bad idea, all of a sudden wants to dump Lott, it's outrageous. It really is. And I think very hypocritical for the Republicans.

Well a new poll released today by "The Washington Post" and ABC News says an overwhelming margin of Americans say it's more important for the government to spend money on needed services than to cut taxes. President Bush is proposing to cut low-income programs by 4.6 percent below current levels, when you adjust for inflation, so he can pay for his massive tax cut for the rich.

He's also draining Social Security in order to pay for that tax cut. And despite yesterday's "Los Angeles Times" poll that said 77 percent of the American people would freeze the Bush tax cuts if they drained Social Security surplus, which they do. Mr. Bush seems unaffected by the fact that the vast majority of Americans disagree with his economic policies. After all, the majority of Americans wanted Al Gore to be president, too. And in George Bush's America, majority doesn't rule.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, majority -- in a poll if you said, if you cut taxes, everybody's going to get ringworm, I think people will be against taxes, as well. But the real fact of the matter is, the only poll that counts, which was on November 5, 2002, people voted against the taxers and for the tax cutters.

As governor of Maryland, liberal Democrat Paris Glendening ended up as one of the most unpopular politicians in the state's history. So unpopular that in this overwhelmingly Democratic state of Maryland, Democrat Kathleen Kennedy Townssend, Bob Kennedy's daughter, lost her race to succeed Glendening. Instead, Robert Ehrlich, a Republican, is going to become Maryland's first Republican governor since 1966.

Ehrlich faces a budget crisis, but Glendening is making it worse, spending money as fast as he can. "The Washington Post" called it a last-minute spending spree. Democratic state controller Donald Shaffer (ph), a former governor, called it "... the dirtiest trick I've ever known any governor to do." You know, Glendening may keep the Republicans in power in Maryland for a long time.

BEGALA: I agree with you. I think he cost Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, a fine woman, that election. But it shouldn't be so difficult for Ehrlich. He's against government spending. It should be very easy for him to cut the spending. Let's see him put his money where his mouth is.

NOVAK: Even though he's put all this spending in at the last minute?

BEGALA: But Ehrlich hates it. He should be -- it should be easy to cut. Let's see how Ehrlich handles the budget.

NOVAK: Your disingenuous.

BEGALA: No.

NOVAK: Yes you are. BEGALA: He says he's against government spending.

Well, if you're looking for a book for your holiday reading list, our friend Lloyd Grove (ph) of "The Washington Post," reliable source column, has a suggestion in today's newspaper. "Secrets of the Tomb" is an expose of Skull and Bones, the secret society that George W. Bush joined back when he was at Yale. The author, a Yaley (ph) herself, told "The Post," "The whole purpose of Skull and Bones is to elevate its members to power and wealth. I think if people across the country were to read my book they'd be quite dismayed that the president is a member of a secret society and that he has some sort of allegiance to this secret group."

Of course, you don't need to read "Secrets of the Tomb" to know that W.'s devoted to protecting privileged and screwing working people. Just read his economic plan.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, the -- it was really shocking that some discontented Yale woman couldn't get in Skull and Bones and she's all upset. But I say Skull and Bones can't be such a bad organization. I don't think they'd let you in either.

BEGALA: That's a pretty good point.

NOVAK: Kentucky's Democratic Governor Paul Patton has had quite a year. He ruined his political career and ended his plans for a Senate campaign by lying about a sexual relationship with a woman who claims he intimidated her with government power. This week, Governor Patton opened a new door in budget cutting. Facing a $500 million state budget deficit, he suddenly ordered the release of 567 Kentucky state prison inmates. Part of a plan to cut $6 million from the state correctional budget.

Three hundred and sixty-three walked out yesterday to start the parade. Mostly drug traffickers, drug users and thieves. But the governor kept sex offenders behind bars. He's sensitive about those things.

BEGALA: Well, you know all the states are in a fiscal bind, all of them. And it's going to hamper law enforcement all across the country. And, again, one way to get out of this is if the Feds picked up more of the Medicaid costs that they're shifting down to the states, but they can't do it because of Bush's tax cut. Once again, Bush's tax cut is what released those prisoners.

NOVAK: The state governors know they can't raise taxes if people don't want them. They want the Feds to bail them out. But I'm going to tell you a little secret. They're not going to get bailed out by the federal government.

BEGALA: You're right, because Bush squandered the tax cut.

NOVAK: And thank goodness.

Next in the CROSSFIRE, one of the few Republicans willing to publicly defend Senator Trent Lott. Then we'll ask whether the GOP will ever be able to attract black voters off the Democratic plantation.

And later, for you all last-minute Christmas shoppers, a gift suggestion for everyone on your enemies list.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Plenty of people are counting down the shopping days until Christmas, but for Trent Lott, the big date is a little farther off. On January 6, his Republican colleagues are scheduled to decide whether they want to keep him as Senate leader. We've called every Republican senator in the book, and the only one brave enough, smart enough to step into the CROSSFIRE joins us from Philadelphia. Please welcome Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Senator Specter, thank you very much for joining us. I know it's a busy time for you and it's a difficult topic. So I do salute your courage in coming forward.

CNN has learned from our ace team of reporters on Capitol Hill that, within this hour, your colleague, Senator John Warner of Virginia, is going to publicly call for Senator Bill Frist of Tennesseee to be the new leader of your party in the Senate to replace Trent Lott. Your response, sir?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I think it's a little premature to pick a new leader when we have a leader in Senator Lott. We're scheduled to have a meeting to discuss the matter. I think that we ought to give Senator Lott an opportunity to be heard by his 50 Republican colleagues to outline his position, and to give him the courtesy of that hearing before we start picking the successor.

BEGALA: In fact, don't you think in that meeting there may be a bit of acrimony, when some of the criticism, according to news accounts, has come from some of your colleagues? And let me name names. Senator Conrad Burns of Montana, who in a "New York Times" column today, Bob Herbert (ph) claims has used much more racially offensive language than any that Trent Lott ever used. If people like that are criticizing him now, isn't that going to make a very acrimonious meeting, and don't they look a little hypocritical, Senator?

SPECTER: Well, I don't think it's going to be acrimonious. We have a way of getting together to discuss things. I believe we're going to look at the very basics of it. And I've known Trent Lott for 14 years, and I can personally attest to the fact that he's not a racist or bigot.

There's no doubt that what he said was foolish to the extreme. But, what has happened here is that it has uncovered the veil and brought into sharp focus the unfairness in America for more than 200 years with slavery, with segregation, and with racism. And what I'm looking for here, gentlemen, is to make a positive out of this. It's a wake-up call, not only for Trent Lott, but it can be a wake-up call for the Republican caucus and the Republican Party that we ought to be paying more attention to civil rights.

We have a big case out of the University of Michigan. I wrote to the president a couple of days ago urging the president to take a position that racial diversity is a significant governmental factor. We ought to be moving to pass hate crimes legislation. And I think Senator Lott could turn out to be a born-again civil rightist. But at a very minimum, at a very minimum, he deserves a chance to be heard before people start talking about replacements.

NOVAK: Senator Specter, what -- I've been on the phone to several of your colleagues, some of whom I thought were as supportive, at least as supportive of Senator Lott as you are. And I just found a lot of people saying off with his head. What do you think Senator Lott can do, should do to save himself?

SPECTER: I think that Senator Lott ought to recreate what happened when he was at the birthday party for Senator Thurmond, the emotional setting. I was there. I didn't stay for the speeches. I had to catch a train for Philadelphia.

But, the place was loaded with emotion. And Senator Lott tried to say something to flatter Strom and to say something pleasing to the crowd. And then I think Trent ought to look the 50 of us in the eye and say, you know me. Do you think that I'm a racist? Do you think that I'm a bigot?

You thought I was an effective leader when you re-elected me a short time ago. And I'm prepared to say what is obvious, and that is that we all talk too much. We all say foolish things from time to time. And Trent doesn't deserve the death penalty.

NOVAK: Senator, Congressman John Lewis, a Democrat of Georgia, a great hero of the civil rights movement many years ago, Paul mentioned him, two days ago, he said this: He said about Trent Lott, "I'd to come down on his side giving him a chance. I'm not one of those calling for him to step down and give up his leadership post. We all make mistakes, we all make blunders. It's very much in keeping with the philosophy and discipline of non-violence to forgive and move on."

Now my question to you, Senator, is why is it that a civil rights hero like John Lewis can forgive, but these neo-con columnists, who are mostly interested in attacking Iraq, immediately, within days after this controversy started, demanded Senator Lott's resignation?

SPECTER: Well, when you talk about the media, and you talk about the columnists, this feeds into a controversy and perhaps makes interesting reading. Although I do believe there are a lot more important things we could be considering than having this on the front pages and the top of radio and television. But I think Congressman Lewis is a very decent guy, and he has it in perspective.

When you take a look at the fact that Lyndon Johnson for 20 years in the House of Representatives and in the Senate voted against every civil rights bill, and yet came to be the great leader for the civil rights act of 1964, I think that Trent Lott could turn out to be a great benefactor for minorities and for African-Americans. And I compliment John Lewis for the candor to speak up.

BEGALA: And I will add, by the way, my partner on the left, James Carville, was so moved by Congressman Lewis' remarks that he, too, said he forgives him. I mean, he's a much smaller player than a guy like John Lewis, but I still think it's significant. And I extend that in relief against -- you talk about Lyndon Johnson. Our current president is also from Texas, but he's no Lyndon Johnson. It seems to me that Bush has...

SPECTER: Thank goodness.

BEGALA: Well, I think it's a shame, because he's been remarkably two-faced about this. You know he went to Bob Jones University, which practices racial discrimination, tells kids they shouldn't date each other if they're of different races, and has a virulently anti- Catholic...

NOVAK: Not anymore.

BEGALA: Well, they rescinded, then they replaced it. And they have a virulently anti-Catholic bigotry at that university.

NOVAK: Not any more.

BEGALA: Bush apologized for that and his apology was accepted. Why doesn't Bush accept Senator Lott's apology?

SPECTER: Well, I think that President Bush has accepted Senator Lott's apology. He appeared here in Philadelphia a week ago. I was in the audience. He castigated. He condemned what Trent said.

And Senator Lott accepted that. And then President Bush's spokesmen has said that Senator Lott ought to stay on. So, I think that President Bush certainly hasn't said he hasn't accepted his apology. And the statement that he ought to stay on is a good inference that he has accepted it.

NOVAK: We just have a few seconds, Senator. Do you think the president in his speech in Philadelphia would have been well advised to say one or two good words about Trent Lott's many years of service to this country and his party?

SPECTER: I think that the president acted properly in focusing on the issue. I think that this is a matter of great importance to the party. And I think the president hit the right tone.

It was prearranged that there would be an announcement by his spokesman afterward, that the president thought Senator Lott should stay on. And that's a pretty good endorsement. And I think the president did the right thing.

BEGALA: Well, Senator Arlen Specter, you did the right thing, first, by coming on. But also, I always admire a guy who stands by his friend when he's in trouble. So, Senator Arlen Specter, a good guy out of Pennsylvania, thank you for joining us, sir.

NOVAK: Thank you, senator.

BEGALA: Next: can the GOP ever attract black voters? Next on CROSSFIRE we will debate how badly the Republicans have been hurt by Trent Lott's comments and by their 30-year strategy of courting southern white voters by playing footsie with the issue of race.

And later, a holiday gift for everyone on your shopping list. Bob Novak and Tucker Carlson are both going to try to gang up on the author of an important new book on the economy. You won't want to miss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Not so long ago, Republicans were seen as the party for civil rights, the party of Lincoln. Democrats, especially southern Democrats, were the obstructionists. Times have changed.

Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate which party has betrayed the most black voters, Eleanor Holmes Norton, the District of Columbia's delegate to the House of Representatives. She's a Democrat. And with her is Ohio Secretary of State, Republican Ken Blackwell.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thank you both for joining us. Mr. Secretary, it's always good to see you again.

: Always good to see you, Paul.

BEGALA: Let me begin with a rather stunning recitation of the modern Republican record on race. Bob is exactly right, in the sweep of history, my party was the racist party in the south for 100 years. But President Johnson from my state of Texas turned us to the light.

And lately, the Republicans, while never being as validly racist as the Democrats were 100 years ago, have been playing footsie. And here's how "Newsweek" summarized that sordid record. "Trent Lott," -- "Newsweek" writes this week -- "was not the only modern Republican to play the race card. In 1980, Reagan talked about states' rights in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And his well-worn anecdote about a Chicago welfare queen was not a particularly subtle allusion to African- Americans."

"In 1988, a group sympathetic to George Bush's presidential campaign produced the Willie Horton ad, attacking Michael Dukakis' furlough program. And when George W. Bush was on the run from John McCain in the early 2000 presidential race, he went to the fundamentalist Bob Jones University in South Carolina to shore up his base."

That's a pretty sordid record for your party lately, isn't it, sir? KEN BLACKWELL (R), OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE: Well let me tell you this, what I find absolutely amazing. We have hundreds of thousands of kids locked into dysfunctional schools and George Bush has, in fact, advanced a strategy to liberate them from those underperforming, dysfunctional schools. There are folks on the left and in the Democratic Party who, in fact, have given in to the tyranny of the NEA, who, in fact, will stop that liberation and that education process.

George Bush has advanced -- George Bush has advanced a program of reforming a bankrupt conceptually and monetarily Social Security system that would establish a property right so that people, minorities, particularly African-Americans and Latinos, who, in fact, suffer from an asset gap, could begin to close that gap. The new civil rights movement in this country is one of economic fairness and opportunity. And George Bush is a leader in that regard.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Eleanor Holmes Norton, I just want to point out that you better be careful, because you're my representative in Congress, you know.

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), DC DELEGATE: That's a stain on my reputation. But I'm glad to have him. I've got Republicans and Democrats. I've got lots of Republican votes in the district. Go ahead, sir.

NOVAK: Well, there wasn't any opponent, that's why. Ms. Norton, the word racism is just thrown around a lot. There's a great debate in this country over "affirmative action" quotas; what the government should do to help along minority groups, particularly African- Americans. Just because they've just -- I may disagree with you on that question, that doesn't make me a racist, does it?

HOLMES NORTON: Absolutely not. And, by the way, you quoted me in your column recently, indicating that I had said that I knew Trent Lott, worked with him in the Senate, he'd never shown any racism toward me. I would repeat that. No, I don't go -- I don't use the race card, I don't throw it around.

What is important about this controversy is not that Trent Lott has opposed affirmative action. So has Thad Cochran (ph). Why do a third of the blacks in Mississippi vote for Thad Cochran (ph), but only 11 percent vote for Trent Lott? Part of this is race.

There's no question that the reason that my opponent here didn't answer your question on race is he ain't got no answer on race. So that's why he changed the subject to education, the Leave No Child Behind Bill, which has -- which the president refused to fund. And don't believe that African-Americans don't understand this.

What this is, though, it is race and it is economic policy and it is social policy. It is privatizing Social Security. You do not speak for the majority of African-Americans...

BLACKWELL: Oh, yes I do.

HOLMES NORTON: ... when you talk about that one.

BLACKWELL: Yes I do. Look at the polls.

HOLMES NORTON: It is tax cuts for the rich. It is going home, even in the lame duck session, without expanding unemployment benefits. Those are gut issues.

BLACKWELL: Look, what the Democrats fear most is our effort to reconstruct a competitive two-party system in the African-American and Latino communities. It is a gradual process, but it is, in fact, working. Go to the Joint Center for Political Studies. See what the majority of blacks say when it comes to the asset gap, and they want a property right, you know, when they -- the fruits of their labor is -- are laws in a tax transfer system called the Social Security system.

They want something that they can pass on to their children after working generations, you know, very, very hard. Let me just finish. Paul, you know, one of the things that has happened in the last few years is that Bill Clinton and the Democrats think that they have a lock on the African-American vote.

Bill Clinton yesterday was walking around talking about, you know, this Lott episode pulls the sheet off the entire Republican Party. Just think about that. Bill Clinton talking about sheets. That doesn't conjure up -- that doesn't conjure up a real good image. Let me tell you, Paul, what it does...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Here's a guy who ran his entire presidency under the sheets.

BEGALA: You're much better than that, Ken. I've known you a long time, you're much better than that. And the fact that a man of your intellect and brilliance has to stoop to that suggests you have a weak argument.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Let me show you the Bush record on civil rights. He was the governor of my state of Texas. Six of his citizens were murdered in a church outside of Fort Worth. He went to their funeral, he comforted their families. God bless him for doing that.

When James Byrd (ph) was dragged to his death, he refused to attend the funeral, he refused to support the James Byrd (ph) hate crimes act, he went to speak at Bob Jones University, he refused to speak out on the confederal flag in South Carolina. He campaigned in Georgia for Sonny Perdue, who was running on the Georgia flag.

In my home state of Texas, his party called our ticket, led by a black man, Ron Kirk (ph), a Hispanic man, Tony Sanchez (ph), a racial quota ticket. That's the Bush record on civil rights. Maybe that's why he doesn't get the nine percent of the black vote. BLACKWELL: George Bush said something that was very, very clear. He said that, in his estimation, the most important flag in the United States of America was Old Glory. Secondly, what he said was that he was going to be fully behind -- and he was -- the prosecution and the -- the successful prosecution of the murderers of James Byrd. Why don't you mention that?

NOVAK: We have less than a minute. I want to ask you, if you agree with President Clinton that all of the Republicans are -- he said they took the hood off, that they have gotten their effectiveness in the South, they have become the great party in the South just because they're bigots and racists. Do you believe that?

NORTON: That's not what he said. You've misquoted me, you misquoted him.

What the -- this president yesterday was speaking as a Southerner, who saw the Southern strategy in operation.

NOVAK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) race card. Wasn't he?

NORTON: Who plays the race card when you go to Bob Jones University but the great unifyer himself, Mr. Bush.

NOVAK: Has he been there lately? Go ahead. All right.

Iraq is in plenty of hot water. But will it come down to war? Connie Chung recaps today's developments next in a CNN "News Alert."

And later something for your Christmas stocking that's even nastier than a lump of coal. Tucker Carlson and I will happily pile on our friend Paul Begala coming up.

Thank you Eleanor Holmes Norton. Thank you, Ken Blackwell.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: In just a minute, I'll be joined by my co-host on the right, Tucker Carlson. The time has finally come for both of us to settle a score or two with a certain outrageous author on the left.

Later, "Our Quote of the Day" proves you can always believe what the White House is saying, I guess.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

For weeks now Paul Begala has used every excuse, often no excuse, to shamelessly promote his new book entitled, "It's Still The Economy, Stupid." It may just as well be called, "It's Still The Tax Loving Liberal Left, Stupid."

So tonight, Tucker Carlson joins me. We're going to put Paul Begala and his screwy stupid book in the CROSSFIRE. At last. BEGALA: Excellent. Well thank you for that lovely, gracious introduction.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Paul, thank you for joining us.

BEGALA: Yes, sir, thank you.

CARLSON: I actually read your book, got so mad I yelled at the dog by the end. I agreed with your acknowledgments, they were fantastic. Actually it was very clever, your book. And it makes the bottomline argument it seems to me is that Bush has wrecked the economy.

BEGALA: He's done all he can. There are externalities that affected it. We were in trouble when he came into office. It's true Clinton didn't repeal the business cycle. It is true 9/11 did us grievous damage. But when you see a drowning man you don't throw him a anvil.

And that's what Bush did. His economic policy took a bad situation made it much, much worse.

CARLSON: But you say it's much, much worse. I just want to finish my thought here and have you respond to it.

Average people don't seem to agree with you. A lot of polling on this. A lot of polling on this. I want to hit you with two of them. The first poll, CNN/"TIME" poll, asked people about your financial situation. Seventy-seven percent of Americans say their financial situation is good.

Next poll, which was taken this week, asked Americans, What do you think the effect of the Bush White House is going to be on the economy for next year? Sixty-five percent of Americans think next year's going to be even better than it is this year.

So your premise is wrong, isn't it?

BEGALA: No, people are always hopeful at the Christmas season. But we just had a poll --- two polls came out this week -- two polls came out this week. Both of them said overwhelmingly that people would rather have the government invest in things that make us safer and smarter and stronger than give another big tax cut to the rich. They didn't ask it the way I would have with that loaded language. They asked it very neutral.

Both "The Los Angeles Times" poll and "The Washington Post"/ABC poll asked people about economic issues. All of them come down on my side. Why didn't the party win the recent election? Because they didn't campaign on my book. They didn't campaign Democratic economic issues. They ran around saying, Oh, I'm for Bush's tax cut, too.

NOVAK: Paul, I know it's bad form to ask authors how they write their book. But as I read your book, I found so much deja vu of stuff I had heard on the campaign trail this year. Did you run around campaign boiler rooms and pick up the unused parts of their speeches and paste them together? Was that the way you put the book together?

BEGALA: No, no, no. I've written a lot of speeches for a lot of politicians.

NOVAK: And they sound like it in this book.

BEGALA: What's unusual about this book and, I think, as a scholar yourself is it's meticulously footnoted. There are 622 footnotes. You don't find that in most of the right wing diatribes. You may not agree with what it says but it's carefully researched and carefully footnoted.

NOVAK: Here's a thing that offends some people. It offends me, to tell you the truth.

BEGALA: I hate to offend you, Bob.

NOVAK: You call the president stupid.

BEGALA: Oh, no, no, no.

NOVAK: That's what the reference to. You call him during the whole time -- you call him Junior.

BEGALA: He is. He's not senior. He's junior. You got to distinguish him from his father.

NOVAK: He's not a junior. He's not George W.H. Bush -- George Jr. And you don't -- And you treat him with such disrespect. Do you think that's funny, or...

BEGALA: I think politicians should be laughed at. I actually know Bush a little bit and I think he's a good guy.

NOVAK: Why should they be laughed at?

BEGALA: Well, maybe you lack a sense of humor, Bob. We can treat that, you know, these days.

The title comes, of course, from a very famous sign that my pal Carville put up in the war room, It's the economy stupid. And my point is, "It is Still The Economy Stupid."

If I wanted to make it about bush, I would say "It's Still The Economy and He's Still Stupid." But I do not actually believe that.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But what if it's still the stupid analysis of the economy, and that is what the "Austin American Statesman" essentially said of your book in a review. I just want to read you one part which I think gets right to the core problem with the book, "Begala assumes that Clinton economic policies will work in any time and place. He ignores the critical fact that the economic boom didn't ignite until two years after Clinton got his deficit reducing budget through Congress. It took technological advances, private sector advances to spur amazingly productivity increases and allow the Federal Reserve to repeatedly lower interest rates."

So the bottom line here is, ordinary Americans innovating and working hard are responsible for the boom under the Clinton administration.

BEGALA: Duh. Duh. But...

CARLSON: Then why do you give Clinton credit for it?

BEGALA: Let me finish the answer. Duh.

But were they stupid under Bush? Were they stupid under Reagan? Were they lazy under Bush? No. Clinton -- government policies matter. And Clinton removed this god-awful Reagan/Bush deficit, paid it down and then invested in things like education to make people smarter. And that's what triggered the boom.

He liberalized capital markets, right"? He allowed -- pulled the government out of borrowing all that money to pay off the debt. Allowed entrepreneurs then to borrow money so they could apply their genius and expertise.

To believe your theory, you have that believe people were stupid when Reagan and Bush were president. They were not.

CARLSON: We don't have time, unfortunately, to deconstruct every misleading thing that you have just said. But let's just take one.

BEGALA: It's all factual.

CARLSON: You just said that President Clinton invested in education, thereby making people smarter, thereby spurring the economy on to greater growth.

Are you saying that in the space of eight years, Bill Clinton was responsible for educating people who then left school, entered the workplace, innovated, created new products, and then spurred the economy? That's ludicrous.

BEGALA: Some. Things like working skills matter, Tucker. Job skills matter. When you give people education and training, it has an enormous, enormous effect. Yes, it does.

So yes, more people got education than ever before. More people got job training. More people got retraining.

CARLSON: So Clinton created the Internet, is what you're saying.

BEGALA: That's silly, Tucker. Actually the government did and I'm glad that the government did. But no, it was investing in people, and reducing the deficit, reversing the entire Reagan?bush economic team...

NOVAK: I feel constrained to give the viewers a taste...

BEGALA: Please do.

NOVAK: ... of the Begala theory. We're going to turn to page 44. Put it up on the screen.

BEGALA: It's a great page.

NOVAK: "If you want to save Social Security without cutting benefits, without raising payroll takes, without funding Social Security and the deficits, without gambling Granny's retirement on Kenny-Boy Lay's latest Wall Street scheme, there's really only one option: repeal the as yet unrealized portions of the Bush tax cut."

Are you -- are you really -- no serious person could say that, that the problems of the Social Security system going bust 30 years from now are going to be solved by not giving the American -- the successful American people the tax cut they've been promised?

BEGALA: Let me tell you who says it. A guy named Peter Orzack (ph), a top Treasury official in the Clinton administration, studied this for the Center On Budget and Policy Projects.

This is what he found. Over 75 years, the shortfall in Social Security is enormous: $3.7 trillion. You know what the Bush tax cut is? Over $8 trillion.

So you could solve the entire Social Security deficit and still have $5 trillion left over to do better things to make our country stronger.

NOVAK: That's sheer nonsense.

BEGALA: That's absolutely true.

NOVAK: Let me use a poll. CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll asked on September 20, Should we allow workers to put social security taxes into stocks and bonds? This is the thing that all the Democratic demagogues or the demagogic Democrats have been screaming about.

Let's look at what the result was. Favor that, 52 percent. Oppose it, only 43 percent. What do you make of that?

BEGALA: Well you know what they don't tell them? They don't tell them that in every one of the proposals in Bush's commission, benefits would be cut. Guaranteed benefits are cut in every Bush proposal. And they don't tell us it costs between 1 and $2 trillion to do it. And where is the money going to come from? Do we have a spare trillion dollars to move from one system to another?

CARLSON: Paul, let me ask you this. This a little bit off topic but it gets to something I wanted to ask you for a long time. You say in the book, as...

BEGALA: I'm married.

CARLSON: Well, that's an after show discussion.

BEGALA: Sorry.

CARLSON: You've said many times on this show, you've said Clinton -- rather President Bush wants to poison America's children by putting arsenic in the water.

You make the point that the president, when he came in, suspended a rule that the Clinton administration put lowering the amount of arsenic allowable in water.

Here's my question. That rule was put in by the Clinton administration literally in the last week of power. So if it was such a great idea, the environmental lobby had been pushing for it for 10 years, why did he wait until the last week?

BEGALA: It was actually the result of a 10-year study that Bush senior had begun. These things take an enormous amount of time. You don't want to rush them in. It was a 10-year program.

Finally, in the book I say Bush does not want to poison children, but he took that bad policy because he's bought off campaign contributors.

NOVAK: Paul! I don't have to be polite to you. We're out of time. Thank you. Thank you Tucker Carlson.

CARLSON: Bob, it was nice to see you.

NOVAK: I appreciate it.

In a little bit, our viewers get a turn to "Fireback" at us. And at least one of them is willing to forgive Trent Lott. Too bad she isn't a Republican senator.

But next, a "Quote of the Day" reveals what they do, and don't pay attention to at the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Because of CNN's commitment to bringing you breaking news we've decided to make "Our Quote Of The Day" a breaking news story.

The quote was spoken just seconds ago. We're going to scrap the quote we were going to use and show you Senator John Warner, a Republican of Virginia, a very senior member of the United States Senate, making a rather remarkable announcement just seconds ago. Here is our CROSSFIRE "Quote of the Day."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: Well, I'm pleased to join the Bill Frist team, and I can assure you the team is growing in numbers very quickly. And I think it is in the best interest of the Congress that the Republican caucus have a choice. As Don Nickles...

(END VIDEO CLIP) BEGALA: That's a remarkable development, Bob.

NOVAK: It was very interesting. John Warner was one of the first ones to call for the conference so he could discuss this matter. I guess he felt on second thoughts he didn't need to discuss it. He was going to move real fast.

BEGALA: Warner's a very serious guy. I mean a lot of these people I like to make fun of as crackpots. Warner's not one of them. This is a very bad sign for Lott. I joined the people like Carville and John Lewis who want to forgive him and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) keeping his job. But when he loses John Warner, that's a bad sign.

NOVAK: Don't count Bill Frist as likely yet.

BEGALA: I won't. I'll take your advice. You've covered this a lot longer than me.

Many of our viewers were moved by my friend James Carville's decision to forgive Senator Lott. We'll give them a chance to "Fireback" in just a minute. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: It's "Fireback," when the viewers "Fireback" at us.

First, Kent Bailey of Richmond, Virginia says, "Way to go, Bob Novak. Morally standing up to Jesse Jackson is really easy when you realize that he actually has a pair of deuces down while giving the impression of a handful of aces. Thanks for calling his bluff."

You know, Kent, even the old prince of darkness likes a kind word now and then.

BEGALA: You're deserving. But I love Jesse Jackson and I actually thought he was right in that debate.

Ethan Rogers from Los Angeles writes, "The big reason to forgive Lott is simple: so we can resume talking about other important issues -- i.e. the economy and foreign policy."

Ethan, I actually agree with you. He's right. That's what we ought to be talking about. We've got 800,000 Americans about to lose their employment benefits because Lott and Bush wouldn't renew them.

NOVAK: I'd rather talk about tax cuts.

This is David Hopsin of Belleville, Michigan. "Last night was the first time that I did not wish that Carville's mouth would get stuck shut! It took a great deal of courage and open-mindedness for him to accept Senator Lott's apology."

David, I hope you're right, but with James, I always look for an ulterior motive and I think I found one.

BEGALA: What? NOVAK: I think he just wants to smear the whole party. Doesn't want to just put the blame on Trent.

BEGALA: No, I like the whole rest of the party to apologize for their racial politics.

NOVAK: See. That's what you guys are up to.

BEGALA: No. I genuinely forgive the guy. If anybody on the right had ever forgiven Clinton, it would have been a remarkable thing but that's not in their heart on the right.

Irma Robinson, Marysville, California says, "I'm glad Mr. Carville has accepted Senator Lott's apology. As an African-American, I too have accepted his apology, because I believe he has learned from his mistakes."

Irma, that is exactly what Arlen Specter said at the beginning. He called for support of affirmative action and for other things to help African-Americans, Specter did. I hope Lott follows suit.

NOVAK: But the right-wingers turned against him immediately. And that's an interesting story in itself.

First question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Billy Miller from Washington Grove, Maryland. I want to know why the Democratic Party is so aggressively attacking Senator Lott? Shouldn't they be focusing on trying to build an agenda instead of tearing down the Republican Party?

BEGALA: In truth, it's the Republicans, sir, who actually are attacking him. We just saw John Warner, earlier it was Jim Inhofe, Jim Sensenbrenner -- a man, Congressman from Wisconsin who voted against the King Holiday -- today attacked him.

It's John Lewis, James Carville, people like me. We have offered forgiveness to him and are ready to move on.

NOVAK: The question is what happens to the Republican courage now on important issues like racial quotas and judicial appointments? And that's what worries me.

Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Brendan White from Silver Spring, Maryland. As a young black voter I'd like to know that when Republicans will realize that shallow attempts to get black votes won't work.

You need to pay attention to issues that blacks care about, inner city poverty, social spending, and other issues like that. Only when Republicans, through a slip of the tongue, reveal their ignorance about black issues, does this take hold of the public attention.

But Republican ignorance of minority issues is something that's happening every day.

NOVAK: I think it's very sad when blacks say that we have special issues that are different from the rest of the people in the country. I think that a strong economy, a individual freedom and less government regulation benefits all people, blacks and whites.

BEGALA: I say it depends on the economic policy. This young man knows a lot.

When President Reagan presided over an economic boom only 70,000 people were lifted out of poverty. Under president Clinton's 8 million were. That's the difference between a broad based economic growth and one that only helps the rich. That's why Democrats earn African-American votes.

NOVAK: Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Pat Busher from Bethesda, Maryland. I was wondering, now that Al Gore has stepped down from the presidential race who you think is going to win the Democratic presidential nomination? And do you think that person has a chance against George Bush?

NOVAK: Well, I think that anybody has a better chance against George Bush than Al Gore. And Republicans are all praying for Gore to win.

My choice as the guy who symbolizes the Democratic party would be the Reverend Al Sharpton. I think he really would be a fine candidate.

BEGALA: I have to stay out of it because I want to suck up to all of them. All of them have come on this show. If they're tough enough to stand up to Novak they'll be tough enough to stand up to Bush.

Except for Joe Lieberman and John Edwards. Two very good men. They're scared of Novak, they're scared of Tucker. I don't know. If they were tough enough to come on CROSSFIRE maybe they'd be tough enough to beat Bush.

From the left I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

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