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CNN Crossfire
Republicans Elect Frist Senate Majority Leader; Bob Graham Ponders White House Bid
Aired December 23, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE the surgery is over. The Senate Republicans have a new leader. Dr. Bill Frist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MINORITY LEADER: My intentions are, indeed, to serve, not to be served.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, an insider's report of what happened this afternoon. And a debate over how much damage the Republicans have sustained.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: I don't know if I want to get into that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Plus, a senator with intelligence ponders a bid for the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have gotten considerable encouragement within Florida and elsewhere to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight on CROSSFIRE.
From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Republicans got an early Christmas present today, a new Senate majority leader. And there is something unexpected under my Democratic party's Christmas tree, a trial balloon from another presidential candidate. Before we get to him, let's unwrap the best little political briefing in television our CROSSFIRE political alert. Quoting scripture and repeatedly making reference to his days as a heart transplant surgeon, Tennessee Republican Bill Frist today faced the media first time as the leader of his party in the Senate. After his selection as Senate majority leader to be, during an unpresidented conference call today, Frist declared he and his fellow Republicans stand united and we speak as one team.
It seems his predecessor, Trent Lott, is speaking for a different team. In his first public comments since being deposed by his GOP colleagues, Senator Lott offered this assessment of what happened to him. It was, he said "a trap." Lott told the associated press that unknown and unnamed conspirators brought him down. Because he said quote "When your from Mississippi and your a Christian and your a conservative there are a lot of people that don't like that. I fell into their trap."
Lott did not explain how the liberal conspirators duped President Bush and Senate Republicans into doing the dirty work for them. One Republican lobbyist offered "The New York Daily News" a simpler explanation. Lott, he said, is delusional. Senator Lott denied the charge and said he plans on spending the holiday with his wife, his grandchildren and his new best friend invisible friend, an invisible six foot rabbit named Harvey.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: I actually don't disagree with that news alert. If it were accurate, I would agree with it, except you left off the last line of his quote which was I fell into that trap, and so I have only myself to blame. He is not Bill Clinton in accepting blame. He accepted it.
BEGALA: No, no.
CARLSON: He should have.
BEGALA: He had his weird conspiracy theory.
CARLSON: In what may be first presidential campaign ever to start during a Haitian American radio call in show, Democratic senator Bob Graham of Florida today said "He's seriously looking at a possible run for the 2004 presidential nomination." After the show Graham said he isn't satisfied with the way the country is being led. And quote "is considering what I think could be a contribution to a new direction for America."
The outgoing chairman of the Senate Committee on Intelligence said quote "the U.S. is scandalously ill prepared for and attack by Iraq." And such an attack by the U.S. he said again quote "A victory for the Terrorist." Senator Graham did not say when he plans to explain this to the American soldiers about to risk their lives in Iraq, explain they're helping terrorists, not liberating a country from a Stalinist dictatorship as they imagined. He presumeabely he will have time to do that on the campaign trail. We get it to you on CROSSFIRE when he does.
BEGALA: This is big news. Let me correct you. FDR announced his campaign on the Papa (UNINTELLIGIBLE) broadcast. That was an odd forum but they are his...
CARLSON: But to say American soldiers are helping terrorists by...
BEGALA: That's not...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That is a fair point. But to say helping terrorists is not fair.
BEGALA: It is not what the troops are doing. It is what our president may be unwittingly doing. This is a man who chaired the Intelligence Committee. This will be a fun addition to the race. So I hope he runs.
Pure BS. Pure BS. That's what the usually reserved and impeccably mannered Republican Senator Orrin Hatch of out you called a comment made by Senator Hillary Clinton. Senator Clinton has said that any one who thinks quote "that one person steping down from a leadership position cleanses the Republican party of there constant exploitation of race is naive.
She suggest that in for both sides to put up our shut up, Senator Hatch use his authority as the incoming chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee to hold hearings into alleged efforts to keep African-Americans from voting. Hatch denied the request noting that the only time Republicans have held hearings in past decade has been to harass Bill and Hillary Clinton. I am not sure he said he knows how to conduct a committee that isn't about land deals or girlfriends. So there you have it. He actually didn't say that I made that last quote up.
CARLSON: You know what made him mad and it makes me mad is the attempt by Senator Clinton and her husband and some but not all Democrats, to turn the Lott story into referendum on race and the Republican party and imply all Republicans are racist. That's unfair. It is a slander and she knows it is a slander she shouldn't imply it.
BEGALA: I don't think she implied that. What she said is absolutely accurate. The Republicans became the dominant party in the South because they played footsy with the issue of race. It came back to bit Trent Lott this last couple of weeks but that has been their Southern strategy for 30 years now.
CARLSON: Well, they took it over from the Democrats.
BEGALA: There is some truth to that.
CARLSON: To say in the last six years, the Republican party exploited racial tension in the South (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: In the last six weeks they have.
CARLSON: That's totally untrue.
BEGALA: How you to think they ran the Georgia's governor's race?
CARLSON: We have argued this before. We had a had a whole show on this because you were (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
In February, Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia will make his screen debut in a film about the civil war. Byrd the Senates longest serving Democrat will play General Paul J. Sims, a Georgia plantation owner who died for the cause of slavery. Byrds decision to take the racial charged role has reopened questions about his past, his time as a recruiter for the KKK, his strident opposition to integration, his attacks on quote 'race mongrels", his filibuster of the 1964 civil rights act and his use of the n word last year on television.
Many see a clear pattern in Byrd's behavior. He has decided to glorify a slave owner. Will he be censured by his colleagues? Will his fellow Democrats rise up righteous anger against him in order to send the important message that bigotry of any kind will not be tolerated by a member of the Senate leadership. We'll see and of course we will keep you posted.
Will they, Paul?
BEGALA: It is a movie. It is a movie.
CARLSON: What Lott said was a joke and he was forced out of leadership for it. This guy is playing a slave owner. Let's not be so selective in our outrage. That is all I am saying.
BEGALA: I think many Democrats say we ought to forgive Lott after he thought, I finally, the fifth time, offered a pretty heart felt apology. You not with any intellectually honesty draw a comparison between 60 years ago, Robert Byrd as a young man.
CARLSON: He said the n word on television last year and now he's playing...
BEGALA: He said it about white people, though, Tucker. It was very different from saying America would be better if we had a segregationist president.
CARLSON: Paul, you are intentionally missing the point and the point is Democrats give him benefit after benefit after benefit of doubt, right? And they leaped on Trent Lott and said this is emblematic of racism in the party. On something like this, you have to be consistent and I wish you would be.
BEGALA: I think you do. But what happened with Lott is that the conservatives pushed him out for their own means and their own ends. That's what happened. Their prints of knives in his back are all engraved G.W.B.
CARLSON: The hyperventilating came from Democrats in sanctimony.
BEGALA: Well the "Houston Chronicle" reports today in George W. Bush and my home state of Texas, more than half of the cost of all the key state wide campaigns $34 million in all, was paid by just 48 wealthy families. Not surprisingly the 48 Texans are fat cats coming from oil, gas, petrochemical, telecommunications and real estate fortunes. What is more, Bush's Republicans use that money to run campaigns that some thought were racially divisive.
Republicans dubbed the Democratic ticket led by Mexican American Tony Sanchez and African-American Ron Kirk "The racial quota ticket." They ran ads that accused Sanchez of being complicit in the kidnap, torture and murder of a federal drug agent despite the fact George W. Bush was so impressed with Sanchez's integrity he appointed him to a top job in state government. Some saw that ad as playing to racist stereotypes. Said one Republican if we can't take millions from special interests and run racially divisive adds, what is the point of being a Republican.
CARLSON: I want you to back up and tell me why some Hispanics saw the ad accusing him of playing a party in the role of the federal drug agent as is a stereotype. Is that the stereotype of Hispanics? I mean, that's Ludicrous. That was a criticism and may not be accurate, may not be fair but just because he is Hispanic doesn't mean criticism of him is racist.
BEGALA: I don't think any criticism of him is racist. I think running an ad against a Mexican American businessman and suggest he is in the drug trade, when you know that that is false. You're tarring him with a brush...
CARLSON: The ads says, I remember, people that who were in the drug trade used his financial institutions.
BEGALA: No. I don't want to go through all this...
CARLSON: But the point is there was -- race played no role in it. That's why it is a phony charge.
BEGALA: You really believe if his name was Tony Smith, they would have run the same ad?
CARLSON: Absolutely.
BEGALA: I don't
CARLSON: If the allegation was a that drug smugglers used his bank.
BEGALA: It was no allegation. I mean the Regan administration defended him, the Regan Justice Department defended him on that.
CARLSON: And will out getting into the weeds in the campaign I don't think have (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But from the your Tax Dollars at Work Department, the federal government is paying 10 women $75 a piece to watch pornographic movies. According to this mornings "Washington Times" the National Institutes of Child Health and Human Development recently turned down a request to study the dangerous side effects of childhood vaccines saying they didn't have enough money. But at the same time the institute has found $147,000 to fund research on women and porn. The purpose of the study, to discover, quote, "What types of audio/visual erotica women find sexually arousing."
It isn't clear why federal researchers are taking over a duty traditionally for husband and boyfriends, nor is it known what will become of the data once it is gathered. Still experts point out that all the silly and destructive things the federal government does with your money, paying women to watch porn is doubtless among the most benign.
BEGALA: That is a great story. I wonder if -- this will probably go to the Supreme Court where Justice Thomas, I know, has a special interest in studying pornography in great length.
CARLSON: That is so unfair.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... political operatives like root through the guy's the guy's trash and check his, you know, check out things (UNINTELLIGIBLE) video store.
BEGALA: I think he has a perfect right to watch whatever he wants. Good for him.
CARLSON: I can tell.
BEGALA: Some people actually even like people screaming at each other on cable. Who knows?
CARLSON: Apparently they do.
BEGALA: Coming up, the coup is over and a new Senate leader's in place. We'll ask a couple of great political pros to dissect the surgeon senator who's taking over for Trent Lott.
And later, one of participants in today's Republican conference call, a senator who was on the call, will give us
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Newly selected Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist today pledged to work for all Americans putting special emphasis on the word "all." Will any Democrat bother trying to work with Senator Frist? To answer that question tonight we're joined by former chief of staff in the Clinton White House John Podesta along with Republican former Congresswoman Susan Molinari of New York. She's now president and CEO of the Washington Group.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thank you, both, for joining us. Merry Christmas to you both, happy holidays.
SUSAN MOLINARI, FRM. REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you. To you, too.
BEGALA: Susan, honestly, I have to tell you, as somebody who knows you, my heart went out to you and other Republicans like you. You had, when you were in the Congress, a sterling record on racial issues. If you were still in office, I may not be able to say that because I wouldn't want to hurt you politically, but you voted for the Civil Rights Act in 1991, you were a voice in your party for equality.
And I'm just curious now as you see Senator Lott having self- destructed. I mean I hate to say it, but he is kind of losing it? look what he said today. Did you hear what he said today? "When you're from Mississippi, when you're a conservative and when you're a Christian there are a lot of people that don't like but I fell into their trap."
Then he said it's nobody's fault but my own. But you don't really think he believes that his record and rhetoric on race is anybody else's fault but his, do you?
MOLINARI: I think and I don't know. I've not talked to Senator Lott. I think that maybe what he was trying to say is that obviously he made some very difficult decisions over some very difficult weeks in his life. And maybe he feels, as many of us do, that the media harps more on Republicans when they make mistakes and do silly things than when Democrats do. Like, say Senator Patty Murray...
BEGALA: Did you know that Clinton had a girlfriend and the media covered it up. They never mention that. I don't know if you all know in the audience, but he did. He had a girlfriend. Did they ever bring that up?
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: Patty Murray from Washington State made some outrageous remarks about the philanthropic attitude of Osama bin Laden and coming from New York and Washington, I guess I was a little astounded by the lack of focus that the national media placed on those statements.
I've not talked to Senator Lott but maybe that's the trap he's talking about because I do think there's a double standard working.
CARLSON: Well don't you think, John, that the trap he's talking about he is he confirmed the stereotype people have about him. Another person who ought to be is really wary of the stereotype confirmed is Robert Byrd.
(CROSSFIRE)
JOHN PODESTA, FRM. CHIEF OF STAFF TO PRES. CLINTON: When I think when you fall back and say that he fell into a trap because he was a Christian, then you're going -- you're really moving from a point in which his statements that got him in trouble for being, you know, anti-civil rights, maybe pro-segregation if you take them to their furthest limit, ends up sounding like he's against people -- that what conspiracy got after him because he wasn't a Christian it is bordering on being anti-semitic or something. I don't know -- I thought that was really uncalled for and out of line.
CARLSON: I'm pretty certain that's not what he was trying to say. But the question here is...
PODESTA: The problem is he keep having to explain his words.
CARLSON: I doubt he'll ever speak again.
Here's the question. The question is does the press look at members of political parties differently?
Robert Byrd, as I said, former recruiter for the KKK, is appearing as a Confederate general in an upcoming movie. Now Paul a minute ago said, Well it's just a movie. But the point is it's a symbol, like what Trent Lott said. And it's an offensive symbol to black Americans. Why aren't Democrats saying anything?
(CROSSTALK)
PODESTA: I think even if look at people who were segregationists in their past, you had to look at their behavior. They changed their votes, they changed their attitudes, Senator Byrd has supported progressive -- for the Court of Appeals.
Who did Senator Lott come up with? Charles Pickering who went out of his way, really, to lean on the Justice Department to go light on a person who had been a cross burner in Mississippi. I mean...
CARLSON: So as long as you vote the Democratic line you get a pass no matter what outrageous thing you say and no matter what group you belong to?
PODESTA: No. I think that if you look at Senator Byrd that was really in the distant past. And I think his voting record on civil rights has been progressive now. I think he's learned a lesson. And I think had Senator Lott not waited to be on Ed Gordon to say that he was for affirmative action, that he thinks he made a mistake on Martin Luther King's birthday, if he had taken the actions then, if he had done what Susan did in 1991 and voted for the Civil Rights Act, he wouldn't be nearly in as much trouble as he was in in the last few weeks.
MOLINARI: Let me just say though, obviously Senator Byrd, though, has made some racially-charged, although he says he didn't mean it, remarks since then either. With his remarks of calling people white "N" words. That was not that long ago, was it?
BEGALA: Last year.
MOLINARI: Last year. So we do see a pattern. And frankly I don't see Democrats standing up and sort of circling the wagons the way the Republicans did around Senator Lott. Maybe that's another trap.
BEGALA: There is a problem your party has with African- Americans...
PODESTA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in a firing squad and putting him up against the wall. But I'm not sure what the circling the wagon metaphor is.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: George W. Bush, pleasant man, decent man, I'm sure he has a very good heart on race, got 9 percent of the black vote. A poll that came out, I think was today, today. A CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll today asked African-Americans which party better shares your values. Look at this. Seventy-four percent Democrat, 6 percent Republican. By the way, the poll had a margin of error of 8 so it could be negative 2.
MOLINARI: That's not funny. That's sad.
BEGALA: Susan, you've a got serious problem in your party, don't you?
MOLINARI: Absolutely, we do. And I think it's one that you see why the Bush White House and why Republicans in general really decided that it was time to take a step and put somebody like Senator Bill Frist in to turn this situation around and put a positive face on the Republican Party because this is not reflective of where the Republicans are and where they want to go and what George Bush has done in the White House and in a lot of his positions, and frankly the majority of senators and members of Congress who are Republicans.
BEGALA: So is the problem cosmetic or substantive? Let me read to you from "The New York Times" today. Suggests to me the problem's more than a face that you need. "The Times" interviewed a whole bunch of African-Americans. Some of whom supported Lott and Republicans, some of whom didn't. Two quotes that I just think are going to break your heart and they've even bothered me as a Democrat.
"Moe Blackwell, 28, a Detroit clothier, said he believed most Republicans harbored views like Mr. Lott's. `He's just the only idiot in front of a camera that would say something like that,' Mr. Blackwell said."
"Marvina Johnson, 32, a health insurance coordinator, was shopping in a Nashville mall was even blunter. 'When you think Republicans,' she said, 'you think racist.'
That's heartbreaking, isn't it?
MOLINARI: You know what? It is heartbreaking because the truth is that, you know, the Democrats and we can go back through political campaigns, have used the race card when they talked about if Republicans get elected in certain areas churches, black churches are going to be burned down. The ad that was run against George Bush when he was running for president. I mean, the Democrat have used race inappropriately in ads...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Is that why those people said those things or is there something.... PODESTA: Look Susan, I think you would have to agree that Lyndon Johnson, when he went out and supported the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act, he did something courageous. He knew that it may have electoral consequences for the Democrat, but he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. That's a person who in his past may have, you know, had racial attitudes, I don't know, that...
CARLSON: Yes.
PODESTA: He did something courageous. Like what did the Republican Party do in return? They came up with the infamous Southern Strategy...
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: There are people who are in this party that look back at that and if it is that it has taken us this long to make that up in the eyes of African-Americans, then that's what we intend to do and take that charge very, very seriously.
CARLSON: And everybody does, John.
I want to move to something that is happening today as we speak. That's an attempt by Democrats -- and it is a form of voter suppression practiced by Democrats. Democratic activists are attempting to get reporters to bite on the following story, that incoming Majority Leader Bill Frist is a racist or has racist attitudes because in 1994 when he first ran for Senate, he made fun or attacks Marion Barry. This is evidence, they say, of racist attitude.
Marion Barry, the disgraced mayor of Washington. That's an outrageous tactic, isn't it?
PODESTA: Look, I think that, you know, I've worked with Bill Frist. I've worked with him very closely when he supported Dr. Henry Foster, who is a terrific African-American to be the surgeon general. And so I've worked with him closely on things. That was a case where Senator Lott, Senator Nickels of the Republican leadership were leading a filibuster against him...
CARLSON: Because of abortion, not race.
PODESTA: Well, but the tactics were racially tinged and I think that -- you know, I -- so I have a lot of respect for Senator Frist. But I got to tell you, what you got to look at are the this is not just, one person one person's attitudes, et cetera.
CARLSON: You're going to have a terrible time...
PODESTA: I think the Democrats would be making a mistake if they try to personalize this to Bill Frist because I think he's basically a pretty good guy.
But you got to look at the policies and you got to look what's going on in those campaigns and you got to look at the voter suppression efforts that went on in Louisiana and Maryland and Texas and other places.
CARLSON: Practiced by Democrats.
PODESTA: Practiced by Republicans.
MOLINARI: But if you want to personalize it against some, you'd have to personalize it for Senator Frist and he has an amazing record whether it's performing surgeries in Africa for free as a heart and lung surgeon, whether it is sponsoring, you know, the AIDS in Africa bill, minority health prevention. This is a man who has a tremendous record and will set higher standards for not only the Republicans but for Democrats, too, on this issue.
BEGALA: On that note of harmony, we're going to take a quick break, Susan. Keep your seat. John Podesta stay with us.
In a minute we're ask our guests about today's development. Florida Senator Bob Graham has new found interest in the 2004 presidential race.
And later, We'll ask one of the participants of today's historic Republican senatorial conference call what really was said. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Senator Bob Graham of Florida spent the past year looking into the intelligence failure that led to 9/11.
He says our country is -- quote -- "scandalously ill prepared for the possible fallout from a war with Iraq."
Meanwhile, America faces what some believe to be a growing threat from North Korea's nuclear weapons program. Is one of the Democratic Party's strongest voices on security thinking about running for commander-in-chief?
We're talking politics with two of the best in the business, former New York Congresswoman Susan Molinari, former White House Chief of Staff John Podesta. Thanks for staying with us.
CARLSON: John Podesta, I want Bob Graham to run for the nomination mostly because I want to be in his diary. Let me tell you when I mean.
Bob Graham keeps an incredibly detailed diary. A couple of years ago he released parts of to "TIME" magazine.
I want to show you an example of the diary Mr. Graham keeps. This is a typical day in 1994
"8:25 - Awaken," keep in mind this is verbatim.
"8:45 - Eat breakfast, Branola cereal with peach. 8:35 - Complete Dressing. Watch 'Meet the Press.'
12:05 - Go to the bathroom, Change into red shorts.
12:20 - Eat lunch (tuna salad). Watch 'Ace Ventura."
1:20 - Go to the bathroom again. Dress in blue slacks.
1:30-1:45 - Rewind 'Ace Ventura.'"
Now, those are actual entries in Senator Graham's diary. My question to you is, Don't you think running for the president, meeting all those people, going all those places would just blow his circuits completely?
PODESTA: I think that Senator Graham would be well advised to follow Vice President Cheney's sort of attitudes towards disclosure of his practice. I think secrecy may be a little in order. We might not want to know.
CARLSON: Maybe you can help. It says 1:30 to 1:45, rewind "Ace Ventura." That's 15 minutes to rewind a single VHS tape. Wondering why it takes so long and can a man like that be president? Fifteen minutes to rewind a single tape.
PODESTA: After all he is the -- he was the chairman of the Senate intelligence committee so I think that -- I think he's very careful with technology.
BEGALA: And, you know, quirks aside, the truth is, present company excluded, all politicians are nuts at some level. I mean, that's what I love about them. They do stuff that most people wouldn't do...
MOLINARI: And their handlers.
BEGALA: Well, yes. Believe me, we are. So I find that that's fine with me. That doesn't pass the crazy test for me.
CARLSON: Oh come on. Yes it does.
BEGALA: But what I admire about him is he is one of the most thoughtful...
MOLINARI: He is on the intelligence committee, watch it.
BEGALA: The chairman of it. He knows more and I think has done more good for our country in a bipartisan way. Take a look at what we need to do.
But what he's been saying for months now is that North Korea say greater threat than Iraq. And let me read to you what "The New York Times" said today, Our administration, you saw the story, I'm sure, the North Koreans are moving aggressively toward producing a nuclear arsenal and yesterday they pulled out the cameras we put in place eight years ago to observe them. This is how the administration is apparently responding: A senior administration official told "The Times" that "No one was looking at tougher measures against tougher measures against North Korea like a blockade or economic penalties."
I can tell you, if Bob Graham were president, we'd have a lot tougher toward North Korea.
MOLINARI: Well, I'm not sure about that Paul and I'm not an intelligence specialist or an internationalist. But it seems to me that maybe Bob Graham, from a diplomatic standpoint, might have issued those kinds of statements in an effort to allow diplomacy at time when war would be very difficult, very costly and difficult to predict. That maybe we do give the administration the benefit of the doubt at this time to just play that hand out for a while, to see if there is a way we're not fighting several wars at the same time.
BEGALA: What Senator Graham said, though, is we ought to fight the right wars. He has pointed out that al Qaeda should be our top priority. I think he's right. He has said in a very muscular way if that means we have to go into Syria, if we have to go into other countries where al Qaeda is hiding and basing, we'll do it.
So it's a very -- I think, as a Democrat, I like the fact he has this muscular al Qaeda first priority, but he's saying that Bush has the wrong priorities and I think he's right.
MOLINARI: Well, again, I don't know what the administration's priorities are. I think from a diplomatic standpoint to handle New Korea -- and in factor, I think, there is probably a lot of Democrats and I would look at transcripts that may have come out from Paul Begala, et cetera, that said, Shouldn't go slower in Iraq and maybe give diplomacy some time. And if they're trying to do that to forestall a war with North Korea which could really be devastating because these people are just so unpredictable which I guess is about the kindest word I can possibly think of, then I think maybe we all just better sit back and give him some time to see if they're trying to see if they can bring all the allies that we have that surround North Korea to put some pressure on to bear.
CARLSON: Now, John Podesta, I can see why Paul Begala and perhaps you are so eager to have Senator Graham join the race, diary and all and it may be because the other candidates in the race aren't exciting voters the way you might want them to.
I want to show you the latest CNN/"TIME" poll latest poll. These are registered Democrats' choice if Hillary Clinton runs. -- If Hillary Clinton were to run for president in 2004, 30 percent say they'd vote for her, beating Lieberman by 17 percent. He's at 13. Kerry at 13, Gephardt at 9, Daschle at 7, Edwards at 4, Al Sharpton and Howard both at 2.
MOLINARI: Poor Howard Dean.
CARLSON: You know Hillary Clinton's not -- the news here, Mr. Podesta, is Hillary Clinton is not running in 2004. Isn't this a reflection on how weak the field is?
PODESTA: No, I think it's a reflection of how wide open it is. I think that Democrats around the country like Senator Clinton. They see her doing a great job and I think they like the fact that during the Clinton presidency we were doing better economically. People had jobs, incomes were going up, et cetera and I think that's a reflection of that.
But I think that the field of candidates you see are going to get out there. They're going to make their case about why the president is not doing the job on the economy. They're going to offer new alternative ideas and one or more of those people will catch fire and that's what the primary process is all about.
CALRSON: If I remember correctly, and I was here during the Clinton years, Mrs. Clinton was the president's wife during that time and for that reason, not necessarily responsible for the economic boom, such as it was.
Are you saying Democratic voters should hold her responsible for the booming...
PODESTA: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they remember -- they remember that...
CARLSON: The Easter egg roll, yes.
PODESTA: They remember an administration that focused -- that focused on both peace abroad and economics at home and I think that that's a reflection of that. They have great admiration, they have great affection for Senator Clinton and they're watch her now doing a really terrific job, doing a really terrific job in New York, both before and after 9/11.
MOLINARI: I think they like the fact she's trumping her husband right now. So I think she's get something partial credit from that.
CARLSON: I just heard my producer say that Paul Begala is ahead in the Democrats.com poll of Senator Graham. Quickly, should he run?
PODESTA: Should Senator Graham run?
CARLSON: Should Begala run?
PODESTA: I don't think these polls have too much to do with anything but I think Paul would probably pick up some delegates in east Texas.
BEGALA: The few Democrats left.
MOLINARI: Is he going to be challenged by Carville? That's the primary I want to see.
BEGALA: I would not live in a country that would vote for me for anything . Don't worry. Our president, at the end of the year polling, I'm sure my friends at the White House who work for him are not as thrilled that is he were a year ago. His favorable rating is 61. Not bad, but seven points lower than Clinton at the height of the Lewinsky scandal. Karl Rove going to him a girlfriend to boost it back up, I suppose.
His vote to re-elect, which is really the key, are you going to win, is 51, which it is about where it was a year ago or two years ago before September 11 when he got elected.
Is your party and are Bush's strategist too arrogant about 2004 when really there is underlying weakness in his poll numbers?
MOLINARI: No, I think that what our party's working on is the fact that the real poll numbers that count which are not necessarily the politics of it right now, but those that were redeemed at the polls this November, where President Bush and a terrific Senate and House candidates were able to win the majority clearly with the force of the 800 pound gorilla in the White House, that he was able to mobilize the United Nations to support a war in Iraq, that he has really just been a leader in this country, in this world and of this political party. Those are the numbers that they're going to look at right now.
CARLSON: OK. We are unfortunately -- on that high note, we are out of time.
Susan Molinari, John Podesta, thank you both very much. Merry Christmas.
North Korea has given the world a new headache for the holidays and beyond. Details next in a CNN "News Alert."
And then a senator who we can guarantee won't be seeking the presidential nomination, Republican Kit Bond steps in to the CROSSFIRE to talk about the new Republican Senate. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
CARLSON: Anderson Cooper in New York, we'll see you tonight at 10:00 on "NEWSNIGHT." Thanks a lot.
BEGALA: Ladies and gentlemen, Anderson Cooper. Thanks, Anderson. Appreciate that update.
Coming up, one of my fellow Texans fires back at me about the Republicans' choice to replace Trent Lott.
Next, we'll ask a senator from the show-me state if Bill Frist has a chance of being his own man or if he's just going to be shown to be a lap dog for the White House. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. Forty- two of the 51 Republicans who will be serving in the new Senate took part in today's conference call that selected Bill Frist as Senate majority leader. We're told former majority leader Trent Lott was one of those who took part.
Also on the phone today, Republican Senator Kit Bond of Missouri who joins us from Columbia, Missouri. Welcome, Senator Bond.
BEGALA: Thank you particularly for joining us this Christmas week. I know how busy you are, you want to see your friends and family. So thanks. This afternoon, you were on that conference call and one of your colleagues who was on it as well, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, had made a statement about the future direction of your party. I'd like to read it to you. He said: "I think now that there has been this loud wake-up call to the Republican Party, we ought to come forward with an agenda. We ought to be supporting hate crime legislation, we ought to be supporting the University of Michigan on this case, that racial diversity is a serious governmental interest and we ought to stop talking about the party of Lincoln and act like it. If that comes out of all of this turmoil, it will be very positive."
Is your party and did you on this call begin to debate whether your party needs to change its positions on the civil rights issue, senator?
SEN. KIT BOND (R), MISSOURI: Frankly, that didn't come up in the debate. That was not a debate in the conference call today. I think we talked positively about many of the things we were going to do for the good of all Americans, and Bill Frist, once again, showed his leadership. And I think he is going to address those things. I may not agree with Senator Specter on what he -- what he thinks is the best direction for the country and for minorities. I'm going to continue to work on things that I think are good for all Americans and especially for minorities.
But we'll have those debates, and I think we'll come out with positive programs that are good for all Americans and also reach out to needy people around the world.
BEGALA: I'm curious, tough, if I can try to pressure you, senator, there are some people who seem to believe that the reason your party doesn't do very well in the African American community is cosmetic. And so you get rid of Senator Lott, you put a new guy in there, and Bill Frist, a very compelling, engaging, he's a terrific leader for your party, congratulations. Or other people who seem like Senator Specter who believe that it's substantive, and that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for you for having a new leader, but you need new positions. Which side of that divide do you fall on? Is it just cosmetic, and do you need to change the substance of your positions?
BOND: Well, I think the substance of the positions for many of us have been -- have been pro-civil rights. You were talking about 40 years ago -- 40 years ago I worked as a clerk for a Republican judge appointed by a Republican president, Eisenhower. The judge was Albert Tuttle (ph), chief judge of the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia. He was a leader in championing civil rights. He went to places where the existing white establishment wouldn't even provide him bed and board, and his good friend Griffin Bell had to intervene, even to get him admitted.
These were Republicans back then who were leading the fight for civil rights. That's the Republican Party I grew up with. And I think we have been able, in Missouri and elsewhere, to work on programs that are good for all Americans, but particularly good for disadvantaged and minorities.
CARLSON: Senator Bond, though it is true, as you know, that there is and will continue to be a lot of pressure on the Republican Party to embrace racial discrimination in the form of affirmative action and embrace the idea that the government ought to give preference to one group based on skin color over another group, do you think the Republican Party will change its position and embrace that?
BOND: I would hope not. I think that for me I believe affirmative action means going out, reaching out and bringing in minorities, bringing in people who have not been included. That's what I did as governor with the first appointment of African-Americans to serve as -- in the gubernatorial cabinet. The first head of the Police Board in St. Louis. All of these were reaching out to bring more people in.
But I think there are legitimate concerns about trying to establish quotas, to say that you must have X percent who are a particular minority, because that not only brands -- it brands those who may well be qualified as potentially having gotten an unfair step up the ladder just because of their race. I think we ought to be making efforts to make sure that everybody is included, and we ought to continue to do that, but I believe that there is some real problems with strict racial quotas.
CARLSON: Senator Bond, just procedural matters, the White House is saying that it had nothing do with Senator Lott stepping down. The newspapers and virtually everyone else in Washington is saying the White House had a lot to do with it. What is the truth?
BOND: Well, I haven't -- I didn't get any calls from the White House. As a matter of fact, our discussions were among the senators. I was one of the senators who called Senator Lott prior to his decision and went through the reasons I thought he should resign. As far as I know, nobody from the White House, nobody outside of the Senate made such a call, or had such a discussion with him or had that influence on him.
So I -- I think this is -- this is a matter that we solved. The Republicans in the United States Senate, and I think that Senator Lott, a man of -- who is very truly sorry for his mistakes, a man of great character, he recognized that it was appropriate now for him to step aside.
BEGALA: Senator, no sooner was that call completed this afternoon that there was thunder from the right. Let me read you a statement written today by Terry Jeffrey, who I'm sure you know, he's the editor of "Human Events," a frequent guest on this program, a very principled conservative. He wrote this today: "Bill Frist is a major shareholder in HCA, a for-profit hospital chain founded by his father and brother. HCA reportedly provides abortions to its customers, so now Republicans face this question: If it is disqualifying for their Senate leader to make offensive remarks interpreted as endorsing an immoral policy to deny African Americans equal rights, is it also disqualifying for their Senate leader to make money from a hospital chain that denies unborn babies their right to life?"
Is Bill Frist pro-life, and do you agree with Terry Jeffrey?
BOND: Yes, he is, and I'm sorry, but Mr. Jeffrey is way out of the ballpark on this one. All of the Republican senators across the spectrum, pro-life or pro-choice, supported Bill Frist. Bill Frist has never run HCA. He does not -- he does not have anything to do -- he's not worked at HCA. He does not have anything to do with the management of HCA. His assets are in a blind trust. And for somebody to reach out and try to find that out is to say...
BEGALA: With all due respect, he got $25 million for their stock.
BOND: ... is coming way out of right field. I don't think -- I don't think that dog is going to hunt.
BEGALA: So you're not troubled that conservatives in the pro- life movement are going to be bothered the way Terry Jeffrey is by this allegation -- I have no idea if it's true -- that HCA performs abortions and he got $25 million for the stock in that company.
BOND: I have no idea if they do or not. I have no idea how much Bill Frist has in that stock. It is not under his management. He has it in a blind trust, and frankly that is reaching not -- is reaching far beyond what I think any reasonable person would say. I think you look at Bill Frist's positions, his statements, his votes and you'll see where he stands.
CARLSON: OK. Senator, I know you want to go to a pre-Christmas dinner, but tell us, is there -- do you think there will be as we read about in "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post," any resentment at all in the Senate based on the idea that Mr. Frist, Senator Frist was the White House candidate sort of imposed from above on the Senate?
BOND: I guarantee you if the White House had tried to impose him, there would have been a lot of votes against it, just for having the White House interfere. I don't think it is bad that the White House can work with Bill Frist. I think they would have worked with anybody we chose, and I certainly have heard no statement by any of my colleagues, there was certainly no dissent and no question raised that he was selected by the White House.
He's our choice, best choice to lead. He's going to work on a -- not only with Republicans, but Democrats, independents, and I think he's going to do a great job leading the Senate, trying to get back on track, because frankly with the very partisan leadership that we had for the past year and a half, we haven't gotten the job done. With Bill Frist, I believe we're going to start getting our job done again.
BEGALA: With the final few seconds we have got left, senator, Senator Frist has reportedly announced that he would only serve two terms in the Senate. That means he would be out in four years. Is he a man of his word? Will he keep that commitment?
BOND: Well, I think if he gets out -- if he gets out after another four years, I have got another job up the line that I'd like him to consider very actively. I don't know whether he will want to continue to serve. We may beg him and plead with him to stay on, or he may have other things that we'd like to see him do.
BEGALA: Senator Kit Bond, thank you again, graciously joining us on Christmas week and floating the first trial balloon of the Bill Frist for president campaign. Thank you very much, Senator Bond from Missouri. Next, it is your turn to fire back at us. One of our viewers thinks Santa needs to make a visit to the cosmetics counter before he heads to the chimney at my house. You'll see why in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for "Fireback." Paul Begala and I, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) some of the e-mails we've received, some of them pretty over the top. Mary from Chapel Hill, North Carolina writes: "Tucker, you seem to have great disdain for celebrities who voice their political opinions concerning world affairs." Well, it depends on who they are. If the secretary of state, a celebrity, does, I don't have contempt. If a washed-up lounge singer from Malibu does, I do.
BEGALA: Well, you yourself are a celebrity who often has opinions on world events, right?
CARLSON: No, I'm a talk show host.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Oh, you're giant, you're huge.
Jeffrey Garrett of North Manchester, Indiana writes: "Paul, as a fellow Texan and Longhorn" -- God bless you, Jeffrey -- "I say "hook'em" when it comes to the Republican Party. They can spin Lott and their record on race any way they want, but as you know, we have an old saying in Texas, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck." And of course, in Texas, Jeffrey, we shoot ducks. So good point, Jeffrey.
CARLSON: There is so many animal metaphors right there that I'm completely lost. Greg Brown of Sisters, Oregon writes: "The Democratic Party was the real loser last week as they continued to play the race card, and it will show in the next elections. The topper of the week had to be Bill Clinton smearing all Republicans." I agree with you. On the one hand, that was hateful what he said. I disagree that it's going to hurt them in the election. It will probably help Democrats, that's why they keep doing it.
BEGALA: Yeah, you see, Clinton stated a simple fact. The Republican dominance in the south is linked to race, just like the Democratic dominance in the south years ago was linked to the Democratic Party's historic racism.
CARLSON: He said they keep black people from voting, which is (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: We need to have hearings on that. Senator Clinton called for them, we ought to have hearings to find out.
Roger Nelson in Wayzata, Minnesota, I hope I got that right, writes: "Tucker, I have to agree that you need a new hair style, but could you please see if they could put a little more makeup on Paul's forehead to cut down on the glare?"
What is he talking about?
CARLSON: It's like a lighthouse shining a beacon.
BEGALA: A beacon of light and truth.
CARLSON: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from Los Angeles, California. And my question is, did President Bush actively promote the demise of Trent Lott for being racist or for being an ineffective leader of the Republicans in the Senate?
CARLSON: Hard to know. It's probably a combination of both. I would say -- I mean, on background, you know, his aides say they never liked (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I would say he just thought that his presence discredited the party's ideas and it wasn't worth having him there.
BEGALA: No, if that were the case, he would have figured that out the first day. He waited a whole week before he figured out that a racist comment was wrong. He showed no spine. He went by the polls on this, and he was just very duplicitous. Shame on him.
Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Kathy McKnight (ph) from Arlington, Virginia. Do you think that Hillary Clinton would seriously pursue a candidacy for president, and if so what year and who would be a good running mate for her?
CARLSON: Well, for the last question, obviously Al Sharpton would be the running mate. I think she is actively considering it in 2008. I think polls show Democrats want her to, and I can't wait, I hope she does.
BEGALA: It's so far away. There is no chance of preparing for 2008. She's not going to run in 2004. Democrats will have a good nominee. We're going to beat George W. like a red-headed step child. Tune in and watch.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next for yet more CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right after a CNN news alert. Merry Christmas.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
9
Ponders White House Bid>
Aired December 23, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE the surgery is over. The Senate Republicans have a new leader. Dr. Bill Frist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MINORITY LEADER: My intentions are, indeed, to serve, not to be served.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, an insider's report of what happened this afternoon. And a debate over how much damage the Republicans have sustained.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: I don't know if I want to get into that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Plus, a senator with intelligence ponders a bid for the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have gotten considerable encouragement within Florida and elsewhere to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight on CROSSFIRE.
From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Republicans got an early Christmas present today, a new Senate majority leader. And there is something unexpected under my Democratic party's Christmas tree, a trial balloon from another presidential candidate. Before we get to him, let's unwrap the best little political briefing in television our CROSSFIRE political alert. Quoting scripture and repeatedly making reference to his days as a heart transplant surgeon, Tennessee Republican Bill Frist today faced the media first time as the leader of his party in the Senate. After his selection as Senate majority leader to be, during an unpresidented conference call today, Frist declared he and his fellow Republicans stand united and we speak as one team.
It seems his predecessor, Trent Lott, is speaking for a different team. In his first public comments since being deposed by his GOP colleagues, Senator Lott offered this assessment of what happened to him. It was, he said "a trap." Lott told the associated press that unknown and unnamed conspirators brought him down. Because he said quote "When your from Mississippi and your a Christian and your a conservative there are a lot of people that don't like that. I fell into their trap."
Lott did not explain how the liberal conspirators duped President Bush and Senate Republicans into doing the dirty work for them. One Republican lobbyist offered "The New York Daily News" a simpler explanation. Lott, he said, is delusional. Senator Lott denied the charge and said he plans on spending the holiday with his wife, his grandchildren and his new best friend invisible friend, an invisible six foot rabbit named Harvey.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: I actually don't disagree with that news alert. If it were accurate, I would agree with it, except you left off the last line of his quote which was I fell into that trap, and so I have only myself to blame. He is not Bill Clinton in accepting blame. He accepted it.
BEGALA: No, no.
CARLSON: He should have.
BEGALA: He had his weird conspiracy theory.
CARLSON: In what may be first presidential campaign ever to start during a Haitian American radio call in show, Democratic senator Bob Graham of Florida today said "He's seriously looking at a possible run for the 2004 presidential nomination." After the show Graham said he isn't satisfied with the way the country is being led. And quote "is considering what I think could be a contribution to a new direction for America."
The outgoing chairman of the Senate Committee on Intelligence said quote "the U.S. is scandalously ill prepared for and attack by Iraq." And such an attack by the U.S. he said again quote "A victory for the Terrorist." Senator Graham did not say when he plans to explain this to the American soldiers about to risk their lives in Iraq, explain they're helping terrorists, not liberating a country from a Stalinist dictatorship as they imagined. He presumeabely he will have time to do that on the campaign trail. We get it to you on CROSSFIRE when he does.
BEGALA: This is big news. Let me correct you. FDR announced his campaign on the Papa (UNINTELLIGIBLE) broadcast. That was an odd forum but they are his...
CARLSON: But to say American soldiers are helping terrorists by...
BEGALA: That's not...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That is a fair point. But to say helping terrorists is not fair.
BEGALA: It is not what the troops are doing. It is what our president may be unwittingly doing. This is a man who chaired the Intelligence Committee. This will be a fun addition to the race. So I hope he runs.
Pure BS. Pure BS. That's what the usually reserved and impeccably mannered Republican Senator Orrin Hatch of out you called a comment made by Senator Hillary Clinton. Senator Clinton has said that any one who thinks quote "that one person steping down from a leadership position cleanses the Republican party of there constant exploitation of race is naive.
She suggest that in for both sides to put up our shut up, Senator Hatch use his authority as the incoming chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee to hold hearings into alleged efforts to keep African-Americans from voting. Hatch denied the request noting that the only time Republicans have held hearings in past decade has been to harass Bill and Hillary Clinton. I am not sure he said he knows how to conduct a committee that isn't about land deals or girlfriends. So there you have it. He actually didn't say that I made that last quote up.
CARLSON: You know what made him mad and it makes me mad is the attempt by Senator Clinton and her husband and some but not all Democrats, to turn the Lott story into referendum on race and the Republican party and imply all Republicans are racist. That's unfair. It is a slander and she knows it is a slander she shouldn't imply it.
BEGALA: I don't think she implied that. What she said is absolutely accurate. The Republicans became the dominant party in the South because they played footsy with the issue of race. It came back to bit Trent Lott this last couple of weeks but that has been their Southern strategy for 30 years now.
CARLSON: Well, they took it over from the Democrats.
BEGALA: There is some truth to that.
CARLSON: To say in the last six years, the Republican party exploited racial tension in the South (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: In the last six weeks they have.
CARLSON: That's totally untrue.
BEGALA: How you to think they ran the Georgia's governor's race?
CARLSON: We have argued this before. We had a had a whole show on this because you were (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
In February, Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia will make his screen debut in a film about the civil war. Byrd the Senates longest serving Democrat will play General Paul J. Sims, a Georgia plantation owner who died for the cause of slavery. Byrds decision to take the racial charged role has reopened questions about his past, his time as a recruiter for the KKK, his strident opposition to integration, his attacks on quote 'race mongrels", his filibuster of the 1964 civil rights act and his use of the n word last year on television.
Many see a clear pattern in Byrd's behavior. He has decided to glorify a slave owner. Will he be censured by his colleagues? Will his fellow Democrats rise up righteous anger against him in order to send the important message that bigotry of any kind will not be tolerated by a member of the Senate leadership. We'll see and of course we will keep you posted.
Will they, Paul?
BEGALA: It is a movie. It is a movie.
CARLSON: What Lott said was a joke and he was forced out of leadership for it. This guy is playing a slave owner. Let's not be so selective in our outrage. That is all I am saying.
BEGALA: I think many Democrats say we ought to forgive Lott after he thought, I finally, the fifth time, offered a pretty heart felt apology. You not with any intellectually honesty draw a comparison between 60 years ago, Robert Byrd as a young man.
CARLSON: He said the n word on television last year and now he's playing...
BEGALA: He said it about white people, though, Tucker. It was very different from saying America would be better if we had a segregationist president.
CARLSON: Paul, you are intentionally missing the point and the point is Democrats give him benefit after benefit after benefit of doubt, right? And they leaped on Trent Lott and said this is emblematic of racism in the party. On something like this, you have to be consistent and I wish you would be.
BEGALA: I think you do. But what happened with Lott is that the conservatives pushed him out for their own means and their own ends. That's what happened. Their prints of knives in his back are all engraved G.W.B.
CARLSON: The hyperventilating came from Democrats in sanctimony.
BEGALA: Well the "Houston Chronicle" reports today in George W. Bush and my home state of Texas, more than half of the cost of all the key state wide campaigns $34 million in all, was paid by just 48 wealthy families. Not surprisingly the 48 Texans are fat cats coming from oil, gas, petrochemical, telecommunications and real estate fortunes. What is more, Bush's Republicans use that money to run campaigns that some thought were racially divisive.
Republicans dubbed the Democratic ticket led by Mexican American Tony Sanchez and African-American Ron Kirk "The racial quota ticket." They ran ads that accused Sanchez of being complicit in the kidnap, torture and murder of a federal drug agent despite the fact George W. Bush was so impressed with Sanchez's integrity he appointed him to a top job in state government. Some saw that ad as playing to racist stereotypes. Said one Republican if we can't take millions from special interests and run racially divisive adds, what is the point of being a Republican.
CARLSON: I want you to back up and tell me why some Hispanics saw the ad accusing him of playing a party in the role of the federal drug agent as is a stereotype. Is that the stereotype of Hispanics? I mean, that's Ludicrous. That was a criticism and may not be accurate, may not be fair but just because he is Hispanic doesn't mean criticism of him is racist.
BEGALA: I don't think any criticism of him is racist. I think running an ad against a Mexican American businessman and suggest he is in the drug trade, when you know that that is false. You're tarring him with a brush...
CARLSON: The ads says, I remember, people that who were in the drug trade used his financial institutions.
BEGALA: No. I don't want to go through all this...
CARLSON: But the point is there was -- race played no role in it. That's why it is a phony charge.
BEGALA: You really believe if his name was Tony Smith, they would have run the same ad?
CARLSON: Absolutely.
BEGALA: I don't
CARLSON: If the allegation was a that drug smugglers used his bank.
BEGALA: It was no allegation. I mean the Regan administration defended him, the Regan Justice Department defended him on that.
CARLSON: And will out getting into the weeds in the campaign I don't think have (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But from the your Tax Dollars at Work Department, the federal government is paying 10 women $75 a piece to watch pornographic movies. According to this mornings "Washington Times" the National Institutes of Child Health and Human Development recently turned down a request to study the dangerous side effects of childhood vaccines saying they didn't have enough money. But at the same time the institute has found $147,000 to fund research on women and porn. The purpose of the study, to discover, quote, "What types of audio/visual erotica women find sexually arousing."
It isn't clear why federal researchers are taking over a duty traditionally for husband and boyfriends, nor is it known what will become of the data once it is gathered. Still experts point out that all the silly and destructive things the federal government does with your money, paying women to watch porn is doubtless among the most benign.
BEGALA: That is a great story. I wonder if -- this will probably go to the Supreme Court where Justice Thomas, I know, has a special interest in studying pornography in great length.
CARLSON: That is so unfair.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... political operatives like root through the guy's the guy's trash and check his, you know, check out things (UNINTELLIGIBLE) video store.
BEGALA: I think he has a perfect right to watch whatever he wants. Good for him.
CARLSON: I can tell.
BEGALA: Some people actually even like people screaming at each other on cable. Who knows?
CARLSON: Apparently they do.
BEGALA: Coming up, the coup is over and a new Senate leader's in place. We'll ask a couple of great political pros to dissect the surgeon senator who's taking over for Trent Lott.
And later, one of participants in today's Republican conference call, a senator who was on the call, will give us
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Newly selected Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist today pledged to work for all Americans putting special emphasis on the word "all." Will any Democrat bother trying to work with Senator Frist? To answer that question tonight we're joined by former chief of staff in the Clinton White House John Podesta along with Republican former Congresswoman Susan Molinari of New York. She's now president and CEO of the Washington Group.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thank you, both, for joining us. Merry Christmas to you both, happy holidays.
SUSAN MOLINARI, FRM. REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you. To you, too.
BEGALA: Susan, honestly, I have to tell you, as somebody who knows you, my heart went out to you and other Republicans like you. You had, when you were in the Congress, a sterling record on racial issues. If you were still in office, I may not be able to say that because I wouldn't want to hurt you politically, but you voted for the Civil Rights Act in 1991, you were a voice in your party for equality.
And I'm just curious now as you see Senator Lott having self- destructed. I mean I hate to say it, but he is kind of losing it? look what he said today. Did you hear what he said today? "When you're from Mississippi, when you're a conservative and when you're a Christian there are a lot of people that don't like but I fell into their trap."
Then he said it's nobody's fault but my own. But you don't really think he believes that his record and rhetoric on race is anybody else's fault but his, do you?
MOLINARI: I think and I don't know. I've not talked to Senator Lott. I think that maybe what he was trying to say is that obviously he made some very difficult decisions over some very difficult weeks in his life. And maybe he feels, as many of us do, that the media harps more on Republicans when they make mistakes and do silly things than when Democrats do. Like, say Senator Patty Murray...
BEGALA: Did you know that Clinton had a girlfriend and the media covered it up. They never mention that. I don't know if you all know in the audience, but he did. He had a girlfriend. Did they ever bring that up?
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: Patty Murray from Washington State made some outrageous remarks about the philanthropic attitude of Osama bin Laden and coming from New York and Washington, I guess I was a little astounded by the lack of focus that the national media placed on those statements.
I've not talked to Senator Lott but maybe that's the trap he's talking about because I do think there's a double standard working.
CARLSON: Well don't you think, John, that the trap he's talking about he is he confirmed the stereotype people have about him. Another person who ought to be is really wary of the stereotype confirmed is Robert Byrd.
(CROSSFIRE)
JOHN PODESTA, FRM. CHIEF OF STAFF TO PRES. CLINTON: When I think when you fall back and say that he fell into a trap because he was a Christian, then you're going -- you're really moving from a point in which his statements that got him in trouble for being, you know, anti-civil rights, maybe pro-segregation if you take them to their furthest limit, ends up sounding like he's against people -- that what conspiracy got after him because he wasn't a Christian it is bordering on being anti-semitic or something. I don't know -- I thought that was really uncalled for and out of line.
CARLSON: I'm pretty certain that's not what he was trying to say. But the question here is...
PODESTA: The problem is he keep having to explain his words.
CARLSON: I doubt he'll ever speak again.
Here's the question. The question is does the press look at members of political parties differently?
Robert Byrd, as I said, former recruiter for the KKK, is appearing as a Confederate general in an upcoming movie. Now Paul a minute ago said, Well it's just a movie. But the point is it's a symbol, like what Trent Lott said. And it's an offensive symbol to black Americans. Why aren't Democrats saying anything?
(CROSSTALK)
PODESTA: I think even if look at people who were segregationists in their past, you had to look at their behavior. They changed their votes, they changed their attitudes, Senator Byrd has supported progressive -- for the Court of Appeals.
Who did Senator Lott come up with? Charles Pickering who went out of his way, really, to lean on the Justice Department to go light on a person who had been a cross burner in Mississippi. I mean...
CARLSON: So as long as you vote the Democratic line you get a pass no matter what outrageous thing you say and no matter what group you belong to?
PODESTA: No. I think that if you look at Senator Byrd that was really in the distant past. And I think his voting record on civil rights has been progressive now. I think he's learned a lesson. And I think had Senator Lott not waited to be on Ed Gordon to say that he was for affirmative action, that he thinks he made a mistake on Martin Luther King's birthday, if he had taken the actions then, if he had done what Susan did in 1991 and voted for the Civil Rights Act, he wouldn't be nearly in as much trouble as he was in in the last few weeks.
MOLINARI: Let me just say though, obviously Senator Byrd, though, has made some racially-charged, although he says he didn't mean it, remarks since then either. With his remarks of calling people white "N" words. That was not that long ago, was it?
BEGALA: Last year.
MOLINARI: Last year. So we do see a pattern. And frankly I don't see Democrats standing up and sort of circling the wagons the way the Republicans did around Senator Lott. Maybe that's another trap.
BEGALA: There is a problem your party has with African- Americans...
PODESTA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in a firing squad and putting him up against the wall. But I'm not sure what the circling the wagon metaphor is.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: George W. Bush, pleasant man, decent man, I'm sure he has a very good heart on race, got 9 percent of the black vote. A poll that came out, I think was today, today. A CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll today asked African-Americans which party better shares your values. Look at this. Seventy-four percent Democrat, 6 percent Republican. By the way, the poll had a margin of error of 8 so it could be negative 2.
MOLINARI: That's not funny. That's sad.
BEGALA: Susan, you've a got serious problem in your party, don't you?
MOLINARI: Absolutely, we do. And I think it's one that you see why the Bush White House and why Republicans in general really decided that it was time to take a step and put somebody like Senator Bill Frist in to turn this situation around and put a positive face on the Republican Party because this is not reflective of where the Republicans are and where they want to go and what George Bush has done in the White House and in a lot of his positions, and frankly the majority of senators and members of Congress who are Republicans.
BEGALA: So is the problem cosmetic or substantive? Let me read to you from "The New York Times" today. Suggests to me the problem's more than a face that you need. "The Times" interviewed a whole bunch of African-Americans. Some of whom supported Lott and Republicans, some of whom didn't. Two quotes that I just think are going to break your heart and they've even bothered me as a Democrat.
"Moe Blackwell, 28, a Detroit clothier, said he believed most Republicans harbored views like Mr. Lott's. `He's just the only idiot in front of a camera that would say something like that,' Mr. Blackwell said."
"Marvina Johnson, 32, a health insurance coordinator, was shopping in a Nashville mall was even blunter. 'When you think Republicans,' she said, 'you think racist.'
That's heartbreaking, isn't it?
MOLINARI: You know what? It is heartbreaking because the truth is that, you know, the Democrats and we can go back through political campaigns, have used the race card when they talked about if Republicans get elected in certain areas churches, black churches are going to be burned down. The ad that was run against George Bush when he was running for president. I mean, the Democrat have used race inappropriately in ads...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Is that why those people said those things or is there something.... PODESTA: Look Susan, I think you would have to agree that Lyndon Johnson, when he went out and supported the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act, he did something courageous. He knew that it may have electoral consequences for the Democrat, but he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. That's a person who in his past may have, you know, had racial attitudes, I don't know, that...
CARLSON: Yes.
PODESTA: He did something courageous. Like what did the Republican Party do in return? They came up with the infamous Southern Strategy...
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: There are people who are in this party that look back at that and if it is that it has taken us this long to make that up in the eyes of African-Americans, then that's what we intend to do and take that charge very, very seriously.
CARLSON: And everybody does, John.
I want to move to something that is happening today as we speak. That's an attempt by Democrats -- and it is a form of voter suppression practiced by Democrats. Democratic activists are attempting to get reporters to bite on the following story, that incoming Majority Leader Bill Frist is a racist or has racist attitudes because in 1994 when he first ran for Senate, he made fun or attacks Marion Barry. This is evidence, they say, of racist attitude.
Marion Barry, the disgraced mayor of Washington. That's an outrageous tactic, isn't it?
PODESTA: Look, I think that, you know, I've worked with Bill Frist. I've worked with him very closely when he supported Dr. Henry Foster, who is a terrific African-American to be the surgeon general. And so I've worked with him closely on things. That was a case where Senator Lott, Senator Nickels of the Republican leadership were leading a filibuster against him...
CARLSON: Because of abortion, not race.
PODESTA: Well, but the tactics were racially tinged and I think that -- you know, I -- so I have a lot of respect for Senator Frist. But I got to tell you, what you got to look at are the this is not just, one person one person's attitudes, et cetera.
CARLSON: You're going to have a terrible time...
PODESTA: I think the Democrats would be making a mistake if they try to personalize this to Bill Frist because I think he's basically a pretty good guy.
But you got to look at the policies and you got to look what's going on in those campaigns and you got to look at the voter suppression efforts that went on in Louisiana and Maryland and Texas and other places.
CARLSON: Practiced by Democrats.
PODESTA: Practiced by Republicans.
MOLINARI: But if you want to personalize it against some, you'd have to personalize it for Senator Frist and he has an amazing record whether it's performing surgeries in Africa for free as a heart and lung surgeon, whether it is sponsoring, you know, the AIDS in Africa bill, minority health prevention. This is a man who has a tremendous record and will set higher standards for not only the Republicans but for Democrats, too, on this issue.
BEGALA: On that note of harmony, we're going to take a quick break, Susan. Keep your seat. John Podesta stay with us.
In a minute we're ask our guests about today's development. Florida Senator Bob Graham has new found interest in the 2004 presidential race.
And later, We'll ask one of the participants of today's historic Republican senatorial conference call what really was said. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Senator Bob Graham of Florida spent the past year looking into the intelligence failure that led to 9/11.
He says our country is -- quote -- "scandalously ill prepared for the possible fallout from a war with Iraq."
Meanwhile, America faces what some believe to be a growing threat from North Korea's nuclear weapons program. Is one of the Democratic Party's strongest voices on security thinking about running for commander-in-chief?
We're talking politics with two of the best in the business, former New York Congresswoman Susan Molinari, former White House Chief of Staff John Podesta. Thanks for staying with us.
CARLSON: John Podesta, I want Bob Graham to run for the nomination mostly because I want to be in his diary. Let me tell you when I mean.
Bob Graham keeps an incredibly detailed diary. A couple of years ago he released parts of to "TIME" magazine.
I want to show you an example of the diary Mr. Graham keeps. This is a typical day in 1994
"8:25 - Awaken," keep in mind this is verbatim.
"8:45 - Eat breakfast, Branola cereal with peach. 8:35 - Complete Dressing. Watch 'Meet the Press.'
12:05 - Go to the bathroom, Change into red shorts.
12:20 - Eat lunch (tuna salad). Watch 'Ace Ventura."
1:20 - Go to the bathroom again. Dress in blue slacks.
1:30-1:45 - Rewind 'Ace Ventura.'"
Now, those are actual entries in Senator Graham's diary. My question to you is, Don't you think running for the president, meeting all those people, going all those places would just blow his circuits completely?
PODESTA: I think that Senator Graham would be well advised to follow Vice President Cheney's sort of attitudes towards disclosure of his practice. I think secrecy may be a little in order. We might not want to know.
CARLSON: Maybe you can help. It says 1:30 to 1:45, rewind "Ace Ventura." That's 15 minutes to rewind a single VHS tape. Wondering why it takes so long and can a man like that be president? Fifteen minutes to rewind a single tape.
PODESTA: After all he is the -- he was the chairman of the Senate intelligence committee so I think that -- I think he's very careful with technology.
BEGALA: And, you know, quirks aside, the truth is, present company excluded, all politicians are nuts at some level. I mean, that's what I love about them. They do stuff that most people wouldn't do...
MOLINARI: And their handlers.
BEGALA: Well, yes. Believe me, we are. So I find that that's fine with me. That doesn't pass the crazy test for me.
CARLSON: Oh come on. Yes it does.
BEGALA: But what I admire about him is he is one of the most thoughtful...
MOLINARI: He is on the intelligence committee, watch it.
BEGALA: The chairman of it. He knows more and I think has done more good for our country in a bipartisan way. Take a look at what we need to do.
But what he's been saying for months now is that North Korea say greater threat than Iraq. And let me read to you what "The New York Times" said today, Our administration, you saw the story, I'm sure, the North Koreans are moving aggressively toward producing a nuclear arsenal and yesterday they pulled out the cameras we put in place eight years ago to observe them. This is how the administration is apparently responding: A senior administration official told "The Times" that "No one was looking at tougher measures against tougher measures against North Korea like a blockade or economic penalties."
I can tell you, if Bob Graham were president, we'd have a lot tougher toward North Korea.
MOLINARI: Well, I'm not sure about that Paul and I'm not an intelligence specialist or an internationalist. But it seems to me that maybe Bob Graham, from a diplomatic standpoint, might have issued those kinds of statements in an effort to allow diplomacy at time when war would be very difficult, very costly and difficult to predict. That maybe we do give the administration the benefit of the doubt at this time to just play that hand out for a while, to see if there is a way we're not fighting several wars at the same time.
BEGALA: What Senator Graham said, though, is we ought to fight the right wars. He has pointed out that al Qaeda should be our top priority. I think he's right. He has said in a very muscular way if that means we have to go into Syria, if we have to go into other countries where al Qaeda is hiding and basing, we'll do it.
So it's a very -- I think, as a Democrat, I like the fact he has this muscular al Qaeda first priority, but he's saying that Bush has the wrong priorities and I think he's right.
MOLINARI: Well, again, I don't know what the administration's priorities are. I think from a diplomatic standpoint to handle New Korea -- and in factor, I think, there is probably a lot of Democrats and I would look at transcripts that may have come out from Paul Begala, et cetera, that said, Shouldn't go slower in Iraq and maybe give diplomacy some time. And if they're trying to do that to forestall a war with North Korea which could really be devastating because these people are just so unpredictable which I guess is about the kindest word I can possibly think of, then I think maybe we all just better sit back and give him some time to see if they're trying to see if they can bring all the allies that we have that surround North Korea to put some pressure on to bear.
CARLSON: Now, John Podesta, I can see why Paul Begala and perhaps you are so eager to have Senator Graham join the race, diary and all and it may be because the other candidates in the race aren't exciting voters the way you might want them to.
I want to show you the latest CNN/"TIME" poll latest poll. These are registered Democrats' choice if Hillary Clinton runs. -- If Hillary Clinton were to run for president in 2004, 30 percent say they'd vote for her, beating Lieberman by 17 percent. He's at 13. Kerry at 13, Gephardt at 9, Daschle at 7, Edwards at 4, Al Sharpton and Howard both at 2.
MOLINARI: Poor Howard Dean.
CARLSON: You know Hillary Clinton's not -- the news here, Mr. Podesta, is Hillary Clinton is not running in 2004. Isn't this a reflection on how weak the field is?
PODESTA: No, I think it's a reflection of how wide open it is. I think that Democrats around the country like Senator Clinton. They see her doing a great job and I think they like the fact that during the Clinton presidency we were doing better economically. People had jobs, incomes were going up, et cetera and I think that's a reflection of that.
But I think that the field of candidates you see are going to get out there. They're going to make their case about why the president is not doing the job on the economy. They're going to offer new alternative ideas and one or more of those people will catch fire and that's what the primary process is all about.
CALRSON: If I remember correctly, and I was here during the Clinton years, Mrs. Clinton was the president's wife during that time and for that reason, not necessarily responsible for the economic boom, such as it was.
Are you saying Democratic voters should hold her responsible for the booming...
PODESTA: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they remember -- they remember that...
CARLSON: The Easter egg roll, yes.
PODESTA: They remember an administration that focused -- that focused on both peace abroad and economics at home and I think that that's a reflection of that. They have great admiration, they have great affection for Senator Clinton and they're watch her now doing a really terrific job, doing a really terrific job in New York, both before and after 9/11.
MOLINARI: I think they like the fact she's trumping her husband right now. So I think she's get something partial credit from that.
CARLSON: I just heard my producer say that Paul Begala is ahead in the Democrats.com poll of Senator Graham. Quickly, should he run?
PODESTA: Should Senator Graham run?
CARLSON: Should Begala run?
PODESTA: I don't think these polls have too much to do with anything but I think Paul would probably pick up some delegates in east Texas.
BEGALA: The few Democrats left.
MOLINARI: Is he going to be challenged by Carville? That's the primary I want to see.
BEGALA: I would not live in a country that would vote for me for anything . Don't worry. Our president, at the end of the year polling, I'm sure my friends at the White House who work for him are not as thrilled that is he were a year ago. His favorable rating is 61. Not bad, but seven points lower than Clinton at the height of the Lewinsky scandal. Karl Rove going to him a girlfriend to boost it back up, I suppose.
His vote to re-elect, which is really the key, are you going to win, is 51, which it is about where it was a year ago or two years ago before September 11 when he got elected.
Is your party and are Bush's strategist too arrogant about 2004 when really there is underlying weakness in his poll numbers?
MOLINARI: No, I think that what our party's working on is the fact that the real poll numbers that count which are not necessarily the politics of it right now, but those that were redeemed at the polls this November, where President Bush and a terrific Senate and House candidates were able to win the majority clearly with the force of the 800 pound gorilla in the White House, that he was able to mobilize the United Nations to support a war in Iraq, that he has really just been a leader in this country, in this world and of this political party. Those are the numbers that they're going to look at right now.
CARLSON: OK. We are unfortunately -- on that high note, we are out of time.
Susan Molinari, John Podesta, thank you both very much. Merry Christmas.
North Korea has given the world a new headache for the holidays and beyond. Details next in a CNN "News Alert."
And then a senator who we can guarantee won't be seeking the presidential nomination, Republican Kit Bond steps in to the CROSSFIRE to talk about the new Republican Senate. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
CARLSON: Anderson Cooper in New York, we'll see you tonight at 10:00 on "NEWSNIGHT." Thanks a lot.
BEGALA: Ladies and gentlemen, Anderson Cooper. Thanks, Anderson. Appreciate that update.
Coming up, one of my fellow Texans fires back at me about the Republicans' choice to replace Trent Lott.
Next, we'll ask a senator from the show-me state if Bill Frist has a chance of being his own man or if he's just going to be shown to be a lap dog for the White House. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. Forty- two of the 51 Republicans who will be serving in the new Senate took part in today's conference call that selected Bill Frist as Senate majority leader. We're told former majority leader Trent Lott was one of those who took part.
Also on the phone today, Republican Senator Kit Bond of Missouri who joins us from Columbia, Missouri. Welcome, Senator Bond.
BEGALA: Thank you particularly for joining us this Christmas week. I know how busy you are, you want to see your friends and family. So thanks. This afternoon, you were on that conference call and one of your colleagues who was on it as well, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, had made a statement about the future direction of your party. I'd like to read it to you. He said: "I think now that there has been this loud wake-up call to the Republican Party, we ought to come forward with an agenda. We ought to be supporting hate crime legislation, we ought to be supporting the University of Michigan on this case, that racial diversity is a serious governmental interest and we ought to stop talking about the party of Lincoln and act like it. If that comes out of all of this turmoil, it will be very positive."
Is your party and did you on this call begin to debate whether your party needs to change its positions on the civil rights issue, senator?
SEN. KIT BOND (R), MISSOURI: Frankly, that didn't come up in the debate. That was not a debate in the conference call today. I think we talked positively about many of the things we were going to do for the good of all Americans, and Bill Frist, once again, showed his leadership. And I think he is going to address those things. I may not agree with Senator Specter on what he -- what he thinks is the best direction for the country and for minorities. I'm going to continue to work on things that I think are good for all Americans and especially for minorities.
But we'll have those debates, and I think we'll come out with positive programs that are good for all Americans and also reach out to needy people around the world.
BEGALA: I'm curious, tough, if I can try to pressure you, senator, there are some people who seem to believe that the reason your party doesn't do very well in the African American community is cosmetic. And so you get rid of Senator Lott, you put a new guy in there, and Bill Frist, a very compelling, engaging, he's a terrific leader for your party, congratulations. Or other people who seem like Senator Specter who believe that it's substantive, and that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for you for having a new leader, but you need new positions. Which side of that divide do you fall on? Is it just cosmetic, and do you need to change the substance of your positions?
BOND: Well, I think the substance of the positions for many of us have been -- have been pro-civil rights. You were talking about 40 years ago -- 40 years ago I worked as a clerk for a Republican judge appointed by a Republican president, Eisenhower. The judge was Albert Tuttle (ph), chief judge of the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia. He was a leader in championing civil rights. He went to places where the existing white establishment wouldn't even provide him bed and board, and his good friend Griffin Bell had to intervene, even to get him admitted.
These were Republicans back then who were leading the fight for civil rights. That's the Republican Party I grew up with. And I think we have been able, in Missouri and elsewhere, to work on programs that are good for all Americans, but particularly good for disadvantaged and minorities.
CARLSON: Senator Bond, though it is true, as you know, that there is and will continue to be a lot of pressure on the Republican Party to embrace racial discrimination in the form of affirmative action and embrace the idea that the government ought to give preference to one group based on skin color over another group, do you think the Republican Party will change its position and embrace that?
BOND: I would hope not. I think that for me I believe affirmative action means going out, reaching out and bringing in minorities, bringing in people who have not been included. That's what I did as governor with the first appointment of African-Americans to serve as -- in the gubernatorial cabinet. The first head of the Police Board in St. Louis. All of these were reaching out to bring more people in.
But I think there are legitimate concerns about trying to establish quotas, to say that you must have X percent who are a particular minority, because that not only brands -- it brands those who may well be qualified as potentially having gotten an unfair step up the ladder just because of their race. I think we ought to be making efforts to make sure that everybody is included, and we ought to continue to do that, but I believe that there is some real problems with strict racial quotas.
CARLSON: Senator Bond, just procedural matters, the White House is saying that it had nothing do with Senator Lott stepping down. The newspapers and virtually everyone else in Washington is saying the White House had a lot to do with it. What is the truth?
BOND: Well, I haven't -- I didn't get any calls from the White House. As a matter of fact, our discussions were among the senators. I was one of the senators who called Senator Lott prior to his decision and went through the reasons I thought he should resign. As far as I know, nobody from the White House, nobody outside of the Senate made such a call, or had such a discussion with him or had that influence on him.
So I -- I think this is -- this is a matter that we solved. The Republicans in the United States Senate, and I think that Senator Lott, a man of -- who is very truly sorry for his mistakes, a man of great character, he recognized that it was appropriate now for him to step aside.
BEGALA: Senator, no sooner was that call completed this afternoon that there was thunder from the right. Let me read you a statement written today by Terry Jeffrey, who I'm sure you know, he's the editor of "Human Events," a frequent guest on this program, a very principled conservative. He wrote this today: "Bill Frist is a major shareholder in HCA, a for-profit hospital chain founded by his father and brother. HCA reportedly provides abortions to its customers, so now Republicans face this question: If it is disqualifying for their Senate leader to make offensive remarks interpreted as endorsing an immoral policy to deny African Americans equal rights, is it also disqualifying for their Senate leader to make money from a hospital chain that denies unborn babies their right to life?"
Is Bill Frist pro-life, and do you agree with Terry Jeffrey?
BOND: Yes, he is, and I'm sorry, but Mr. Jeffrey is way out of the ballpark on this one. All of the Republican senators across the spectrum, pro-life or pro-choice, supported Bill Frist. Bill Frist has never run HCA. He does not -- he does not have anything to do -- he's not worked at HCA. He does not have anything to do with the management of HCA. His assets are in a blind trust. And for somebody to reach out and try to find that out is to say...
BEGALA: With all due respect, he got $25 million for their stock.
BOND: ... is coming way out of right field. I don't think -- I don't think that dog is going to hunt.
BEGALA: So you're not troubled that conservatives in the pro- life movement are going to be bothered the way Terry Jeffrey is by this allegation -- I have no idea if it's true -- that HCA performs abortions and he got $25 million for the stock in that company.
BOND: I have no idea if they do or not. I have no idea how much Bill Frist has in that stock. It is not under his management. He has it in a blind trust, and frankly that is reaching not -- is reaching far beyond what I think any reasonable person would say. I think you look at Bill Frist's positions, his statements, his votes and you'll see where he stands.
CARLSON: OK. Senator, I know you want to go to a pre-Christmas dinner, but tell us, is there -- do you think there will be as we read about in "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post," any resentment at all in the Senate based on the idea that Mr. Frist, Senator Frist was the White House candidate sort of imposed from above on the Senate?
BOND: I guarantee you if the White House had tried to impose him, there would have been a lot of votes against it, just for having the White House interfere. I don't think it is bad that the White House can work with Bill Frist. I think they would have worked with anybody we chose, and I certainly have heard no statement by any of my colleagues, there was certainly no dissent and no question raised that he was selected by the White House.
He's our choice, best choice to lead. He's going to work on a -- not only with Republicans, but Democrats, independents, and I think he's going to do a great job leading the Senate, trying to get back on track, because frankly with the very partisan leadership that we had for the past year and a half, we haven't gotten the job done. With Bill Frist, I believe we're going to start getting our job done again.
BEGALA: With the final few seconds we have got left, senator, Senator Frist has reportedly announced that he would only serve two terms in the Senate. That means he would be out in four years. Is he a man of his word? Will he keep that commitment?
BOND: Well, I think if he gets out -- if he gets out after another four years, I have got another job up the line that I'd like him to consider very actively. I don't know whether he will want to continue to serve. We may beg him and plead with him to stay on, or he may have other things that we'd like to see him do.
BEGALA: Senator Kit Bond, thank you again, graciously joining us on Christmas week and floating the first trial balloon of the Bill Frist for president campaign. Thank you very much, Senator Bond from Missouri. Next, it is your turn to fire back at us. One of our viewers thinks Santa needs to make a visit to the cosmetics counter before he heads to the chimney at my house. You'll see why in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for "Fireback." Paul Begala and I, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) some of the e-mails we've received, some of them pretty over the top. Mary from Chapel Hill, North Carolina writes: "Tucker, you seem to have great disdain for celebrities who voice their political opinions concerning world affairs." Well, it depends on who they are. If the secretary of state, a celebrity, does, I don't have contempt. If a washed-up lounge singer from Malibu does, I do.
BEGALA: Well, you yourself are a celebrity who often has opinions on world events, right?
CARLSON: No, I'm a talk show host.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Oh, you're giant, you're huge.
Jeffrey Garrett of North Manchester, Indiana writes: "Paul, as a fellow Texan and Longhorn" -- God bless you, Jeffrey -- "I say "hook'em" when it comes to the Republican Party. They can spin Lott and their record on race any way they want, but as you know, we have an old saying in Texas, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck." And of course, in Texas, Jeffrey, we shoot ducks. So good point, Jeffrey.
CARLSON: There is so many animal metaphors right there that I'm completely lost. Greg Brown of Sisters, Oregon writes: "The Democratic Party was the real loser last week as they continued to play the race card, and it will show in the next elections. The topper of the week had to be Bill Clinton smearing all Republicans." I agree with you. On the one hand, that was hateful what he said. I disagree that it's going to hurt them in the election. It will probably help Democrats, that's why they keep doing it.
BEGALA: Yeah, you see, Clinton stated a simple fact. The Republican dominance in the south is linked to race, just like the Democratic dominance in the south years ago was linked to the Democratic Party's historic racism.
CARLSON: He said they keep black people from voting, which is (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: We need to have hearings on that. Senator Clinton called for them, we ought to have hearings to find out.
Roger Nelson in Wayzata, Minnesota, I hope I got that right, writes: "Tucker, I have to agree that you need a new hair style, but could you please see if they could put a little more makeup on Paul's forehead to cut down on the glare?"
What is he talking about?
CARLSON: It's like a lighthouse shining a beacon.
BEGALA: A beacon of light and truth.
CARLSON: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from Los Angeles, California. And my question is, did President Bush actively promote the demise of Trent Lott for being racist or for being an ineffective leader of the Republicans in the Senate?
CARLSON: Hard to know. It's probably a combination of both. I would say -- I mean, on background, you know, his aides say they never liked (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I would say he just thought that his presence discredited the party's ideas and it wasn't worth having him there.
BEGALA: No, if that were the case, he would have figured that out the first day. He waited a whole week before he figured out that a racist comment was wrong. He showed no spine. He went by the polls on this, and he was just very duplicitous. Shame on him.
Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Kathy McKnight (ph) from Arlington, Virginia. Do you think that Hillary Clinton would seriously pursue a candidacy for president, and if so what year and who would be a good running mate for her?
CARLSON: Well, for the last question, obviously Al Sharpton would be the running mate. I think she is actively considering it in 2008. I think polls show Democrats want her to, and I can't wait, I hope she does.
BEGALA: It's so far away. There is no chance of preparing for 2008. She's not going to run in 2004. Democrats will have a good nominee. We're going to beat George W. like a red-headed step child. Tune in and watch.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next for yet more CROSSFIRE. "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right after a CNN news alert. Merry Christmas.
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Ponders White House Bid>
