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CNN Crossfire

Political Correctness, Holidays and Morals

Aired December 25, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: Merry Christmas, or is it Happy Holidays. Are we one nation under God or one nation politically correct? And are there Ten Commandments or just one? Thou shalt not offend thy neighbor with thine own religious attitude.
We'd like to ask Bill Clinton, Trent Lott, Henry Kissinger, Tom Daschle and President Bush, but we'll settle for political impersonator Jim Morris.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE, and a Merry Christmas to everybody. In a minute, we'll ask a couple of guests why that's such a radical thing to say, Merry Christmas, on television today. Well, later, make history on CROSSFIRE. President Bush's one and Bush II; President Clinton, and, yes, President Ronald Reagan will join us, all of them courtesy of political impressionist Jim Morris. So stick around.

But first, we'll say it again. Not happy holidays, not seasoning greetings, but Merry Christmas. Why has the land of the free gotten so uptight that freedom of expression, especially religious expression, is the subject of lawsuits, political fights and shouting matches?

This year alone we've seen the Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional because it contains the phrase "under God." A federal court ordered Alabama's chief justice to remove a monument containing the Ten Commandments from the state's judicial building. The order is being appealed.

And various cities had fights over nativity scenes, menorahs, and other expressions of religion freedom. Is "thou shalt not offend" America's new amendment? In the CROSSFIRE tonight are the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And in Lynchburg, Virginia, Liberty University founder, chancellor, the Reverend Jerry Fallwell.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us. Reverend Barry Lynn, Reverend Jerry Falwell, a very Merry Christmas to you, sir.

REV. JERRY FALWELL, FOUNDER AND CHANCELLOR, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: And Merry Christmas to you.

BEGALA: Thank you, sir, for joining us. This year, one of the most contentious issued turned on the issue of race. And I don't want to revisit all of that, but it did remind me of a particularly dark period in the 2000 campaign, when the nominee you supported for president, Governor Bush, now President Bush, went to Bob Jones University.

He later defended it by saying this -- and let me quote what Bush said about Bob Jones University. He said, "Bob Jones University was based on the bible." That's what he said. Do you believe, as an expert on the bible, the bible teaches anti-Catholic bigotry and that black and white people shouldn't fall in love with each other?

FALWELL: Well, I won't go there, because I think you know what I believe. But I don't believe that the president's going to Bob Jones University or speaking anywhere, any place, means that he therefore endorses all the views and values and doctrines of that place. I believe with all my heart that George W. Bush loves every person alike, and I, with all my heart, support him to this present day.

BEGALA: And I admire that in you, but the question was, he didn't simply go there. He did say that university was based on the bible. It is a university that teaches my faith, the Catholic Church. They call it a cult, they call the pope an anti-Christ. And it teaches that black and white people ought not fall in love with each other. And, again, I ask you, Bush says that's based on the bible. Is it in your view?

FALWELL: Well, no. What he said was that the university was started, founded from the bible. And Dr. Bob Jones Sr. did just that. They did have two bad policies there, maybe more than two. I suspect all of our schools have some things we can improve on.

But, at the same time, the school was founded upon the bible. And to Bob Jones III's credit, he is the new president, he is the current president, he went on "LARRY KING LIVE" and corrected that policy and apologized for it. And he did not establish, but he did remove it. Bob Jones University is a great school.

NOVAK: Reverend Barry Lynn, in one of the great controversies that we have had in this past year over church and state was the guy named Michael Newdow (ph), who has been on this program a couple of times. He went into court to get the "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance. And one of the reasons he said was that his daughter was just embarrassed in school not being a Christian.

Now, the girl's mother, Sandra Banning (ph), the trouble is that we have reporters, and she told a reporter this: "I was concerned that the American public would be led to believe that my daughter is an atheist or that she's been harmed by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, including the words 'one nation under God.' We are practicing Christians and are active in our church." Isn't that an outrage for somebody to go to court and misrepresent his little daughter?

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEP. OF CHURCH AND STATE: You know, I don't know much about Michael Newdow's (ph) family life. I really care about the Constitution and the principle that he established. And the principle that was established in that decision was that, in 1954, when the Congress of the United States added two words, "under God," to a purely secular pledge, a pledge of allegiance that had gotten us through two world wars and out of the great depression, that somehow we had to change that and make it an affirmation of a religious belief.

That's inappropriate. That's certainly not what Congress is supposed to be doing. They should be solving a lot of problems. Making us more religious is not one of them.

NOVAK: Barry, I think you made my point for me, but I want to make sure I understood it. You're saying that, as long as you get your decision out of the courts, however it is, it really doesn't matter if you misrepresent how a young girl who was a Christian is represented by her father? It doesn't really matter? Anything goes? Is that right?

LYNN: No, it doesn't. But, as a matter of fact, the court already rejected this argument and said it didn't really matter what he did or didn't do. The principle was the one that was important. And, of course -- see, I believe that what courts ought to be doing is looking for the truth. And if they get it from a Michael Newdow (ph) case or a Barry Lynn case or anybody else, it's the principle that counts.

And in this country, I know you hate to believe this, we're founded on the notion of a separation of church and state, not the unification of church and state. Because that helps religion and government.

BEGALA: Reverend Fallwell, you said (UNINTELLIGIBLE). A wall of separation between church and state, as you know very well...

FALWELL: That is not found in the Constitution anywhere.

BEGALA: That's correct. Reverend, it came from Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence. He wrote a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, in which he said that's what the first amendment does. It erects a wall of separation. And I think Jefferson, with all due respect to you, probably knows more about our Constitution than you do, sir.

FALWELL: Well, I would say that there's not a word about separation of church and state. Further, this same Dr. Newdow (ph) wants chaplains out of the Congress. He wants "In God we trust" off the coin. I've heard him say those very words. And that's what Barry Lynn wants as well.

Barry Lynn absolutely wants the same thing. And the end result is...

LYNN: What's wrong with that? Why should we be paying chaplains $150,000 a year, one in the House and one in the Senate, out of taxpayer funds, when James Madison himself said he made a big mistake voting for that in the first Congress. He said it would have been much better if Americans, including members of Congress, had been asked to contribute voluntarily. That would be a good example that the Congress should have set for the rest of us.

Why do you -- are you obsessed with this idea that government has to promote your religion, Dr. Fallwell? Most of us who are deeply religious believe we're doing it fine without the help of the United States government.

(CROSSTALK)

FALWELL: I don't believe government should promote religion. That it, likewise, should not be hostile towards religion. And that is what Barry Lynn is and that is what the ACLU is. To give you an example, the University of North Carolina required its freshmen to do a study course on a pro-Islamic book before they came to school at Chapel Hill. The ACLU defended the University of North Carolina in that matter.

Had that been a Billy Graham book, an evangelical book, a Roman Catholic book required by UNC, they would not have supported. They would have opposed it because they're hostile to Christianity.

LYNN: Wait a minute. Jerry Fallwell, you are many things, but you are not a mind reader. And you do not have any idea what the ACLU of North Carolina would or wouldn't have done. The truth is, religious sensors -- excuse me. No, religious sensors attempted to take one book and censor it from the curriculum for freshman, and the courts didn't buy it and you know it.

NOVAK: If I could make one historical correction on my esteemed friend, Paul, Thomas Jefferson was in France when they drafted the Constitution. He had very little...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: He had very little to do with it and he didn't like it much. But let me just say this...

FALWELL: Don't expect a liberal to care about the Constitution.

NOVAK: No.

BEGALA: I take offense to that, Reverend Falwell, and I ask you to retract that. I love this Constitution.

FALWELL: I won't (ph) retract it. As long as you try to take God out of the public square, I'll do anything but retract it. (CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: This is Christmas day.

FALWELL: The fact is, this is a nation under God, built on the Judeo Christian (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ACLU to the contrary, notwithstanding.

NOVAK: Barry Lynn, let's just say that the founding fathers, who were good, not perfect, but what they wanted, if you read their intent, read what they said, was they wanted to prevent the United States from having an established religion. What was the established religion? It was the Episcopalian religion. That's what they were worried about.

LYNN: No, I'm sorry. I got to correct your history, Bob. Because, the truth is, the framers of our Constitution had the same debate we're having right now. It's just that my side won and your side lost. What they wanted to do was to protect the integrity of religion by making sure governments wouldn't overregulate it and to protect the integrity of government by not having them make decisions that are basically theological.

That's a very simple separation. It's the most powerful idea that has perhaps ever been created in American political philosophy.

NOVAK: It's not what they were after, though.

BEGALA: What we are after right now is a break. Hang on just a second, Barry Lynn. Reverend Falwell, stay with us. In a minute, we're going to ask our guests if they agree with a leading Republican who found a connection between the teaching of evolution and a Christmas carol.

And later, President Bush, President Clinton, even former President Reagan will join CROSSFIRE, thanks to political impersonator Jim Morris. You will not want to miss that.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to this Christmas day edition of CROSSFIRE. Merry Christmas to you. We are discussing religion with the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and Liberty University Chancellor, the Reverend Jerry Falwell. Gentlemen, thanks for staying with us.

LYNN: Certainly.

NOVAK: Reverend Lynn, we were talking before about the courts in Alabama, saying that they couldn't put the ten commandments up on the judicial building. And they took a poll of Alabama voters, Mobile registered at the University of South Alabama and asked a couple of questions. "Do you agree or disagree with the monument?" Seventy- seven percent supported the monument; 15 percent opposed. Then they asked, "Do you approve or disapprove of having the legality of this settled by courts?" Only 30 percent agreed sending it to the courts, 58 percent disapproved. Should the people of Alabama have some say in whether they can put the Ten Commandments up on the state judicial building?

LYNN: Yeah, they should have some say, but not the final say. Because someone that has to be sensitive to and concerned about the civil rights and liberties of even the minorities have to decide. And that's why the courts are there, and that's why we have a Bill of Rights to protect the overwhelming...

NOVAK: What rights does that violate, having the Ten Commandments up there?

LYNN: This was not just up there. This was a two and a half ton granite monument that was brought into the center of the judicial building under cover of darkness; something that always makes me suspicious to begin with, under cover of darkness.

NOVAK: That offends you?

LYNN: No. What offends me is the fact that this judge knows full well that most people in Alabama are Christians. And he is going to bully his emphasis on that and his promotion of that religion with a two and a half ton monument. Most people, I think, would be just satisfied if politicians, including judges, obeyed at least most of the Ten Commandments instead of putting them up on gigantic granite monuments.

BEGALA: Reverend Falwell, let's talk about what offends the Constitution. In the earlier segment we just had, as you were busy committing the sin of bearing false witness against me, you claimed that Jefferson somehow was...

FALWELL: You may be the one liberal exception.

BEGALA: He was not, sir. Thomas Jefferson, as you know, wrote the Declaration of Independence. It is replete with references to God. But it's not a legally binding document. The Constitution is, and the Constitution has nary a reference to God or providence or to our creator. Doesn't that tell you that the founding fathers wanted that separation?

FALWELL: I beg your pardon. The Constitution is concluded with "In the year of our lord" and the date there. That acknowledgement of God is right in the Constitution.

BEGALA: That's a far cry from the declaration, though, which is replete with appeals to God.

FALWELL: And furthermore, you read all the documents of the early days of our founders. This is nation built upon the Judeo Christian ethic. The putting of the Ten Commandments on the courthouse, it ought to be in every courthouse in America. By the way, that isn't just Christian. That happens to be Judeo as well. And it happens to be the standards upon which our American law was founded.

LYNN: That is nonsense. That is not the basis of the law of the United States and you know that.

(CROSSTALK)

FALWELL: I want to say something that may give a stroke to Barry, but I want to wish him a Merry Christmas on this special night to people all over this world who are watching in the name of the virgin-born, sinless, crucified (UNINTELLIGIBLE) savior, unashamedly, I love him and trust him as my savior.

NOVAK: Does that offend you him saying that?

LYNN: No, it certainly doesn't. As a fellow Christian, I thank you for that and I wish you a Merry Christmas. The interesting thing is, though, neither one of us needed the government or the president of the United States to have us have this exchange. That's what religious freedom is all about.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: I want to ask you something, Barry. You know, just this morning I was talking to somebody who parked by car. And the guy says to me, "Seasons greetings." And I said "Merry Christmas." And he looks at me and says, "Yeah, Merry Christmas." Why are people afraid to say Merry Christmas?

LYNN: Well, because I think corporate America, as well as government...

(CROSSTALK)

LYNN: No, I haven't intimidated the guy who parks Bob Novak's car. I don't even know him. But let me explain...

(CROSSTALK)

LYNN: No -- but the point is that we do recognize that there is a diversity. And we celebrate -- at least some of us do -- a celebration of the mosaic of religious diversity in America. So, in this season of the year, when we have recently passed Ramada, we've also had Jewish celebrations, even Wiccan celebrations, we're actually going to say, Bob, seasons greetings, and cover a whole lot of people. It's like saying peace on earth. It's not specific to a religion.

FALWELL: I'm not going to say that.

LYNN: Well what do you want to say?

BEGALA: We're running out of time. I want to ask you...

FALWELL: I'm going to say glory to God in the highest and thank God for the gift of God's love, the lord Jesus Christ.

LYNN: But not peace on earth. BEGALA: And amen to that, reverend. But let me ask you this. Tom DeLay is actually my congressman where I grew up in Sugarland, Texas, and he's about as loony as he could be. He gave a speech after the Columbine shooting in which he claimed that the teaching of evolution, among other things, had led these students to murder their fellow students. Now you don't agree with that? You don't believe teaching of evolution leads kids to kill, do you?

FALWELL: I read his exact words, and what he said was that we teach people that they were not created by God in God's image, but rather evolved from a lower form of animal life. We should not be surprised when they act accordingly.

BEGALA: So you agree. Teaching evolution...

FALWELL: I happen to believe that the bible teaches that God created every one of us in his image, body, soul spirit. And I agree with Tom DeLay.

NOVAK: That's the last word. Jerry Fallwell, Merry Christmas to you. Merry Christmas to you, Barry Lynn.

BEGALA: Merry Christams, Reverend Falwell. Good to see you.

NOVAK: Still to come: President Bush, Clinton and Reagan. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) some of the political leaders who join us next in the CROSSFIRE thanks to political impersonator Jim Morris. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Today, because it's Christmas, we thought we'd give you a little CROSSFIRE gift. If there's one thing about our current president that we can all agree on, it's that he doesn't do many television interviews. So we thought you might want to hear from your president.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, courtesy of political impressionist Jim Morris, the honorable George W. Bush, President of the United States.

JIM MORRIS, IMPERSONATOR: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

BEGALA: Mr. President, thank you for coming on CROSSFIRE. Merry Christmas to you.

MORRIS: Merry Christmas to you, too.

BEGALA: I don't know if you could hear coming up on the limo, but we just had a debate between Jerry Falwell and Barry Lynn from Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Where do you fall on this tricky question of separating church and state, sir?

MORRIS: I want to be a uniter, not a divider. I am a united, not a divider. I'm a joker, I'm a smoker, I'm a midnight toker. And I believe in separation of church and state. Why God has been expelled from our classroom, though, I don't know. Was he caught cheating on his SATs? I don't think so. God wouldn't cheat. He doesn't have to cheat. Knows all the answers. So I hope we can all pretty much celebrate a wonderful holiday without all these divisive issues.

NOVAK: Mr. President, in this Christmas season, we're getting ready for an attack on Iraq. Why are we doing it? Why are we going to attack Iraq?

MORRIS: Because we're Americans, Bob. And we value human life, unlike those who oppose us, who deserve to die. We're Americans.

BEGALA: Very good point. But one of the things that bothers me about your defense position is not just Iraq, but we just had another failed test of missile defense, and yet you want to go forward with this Star Wars missile defense. Why, sir?

MORRIS: Well, I'm aware of fact that three out of eight of these missile tests failed. Don't forget you got to start somewhere. And, as a matter of fact, we had a similar problem with the trident (ph) submarine. As a matter of fact, four out of five nations surveyed today recommend trident (ph) to their navies who choose subs.

NOVAK: That's very good. You know, Mr. President, you're kind enough to fly in by the helicopter from Camp David. You were at Camp David with your family today. What in the world do you do there? Do you just go over briefing papers? Do you have any fun there at all?

MORRIS: I appreciate it. I do. I do. As a matter of fact, I'm reading -- gonna polish it off in a couple days, a little volume called the "Fall of the Roman Empire" by Gibbon (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But I'm also reading some other philosophy. Renee Descarte. I was inspired by him when he said -- or maybe it was Neil Diamond -- when he said, I think, therefore I am, I said.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: That's pretty heavy philosophy. But while you're at Camp David, I know your family, your father, the former president, and Barbara Bush have come up. It's got to be helpful in the job that you have to have a dad you can turn to for advice who has had the same job, isn't it?

MORRIS: Well, I asked my daddy how he thought I was doing. He said pretty good, W., but -- he looked at me and said, maybe I can do an impression of my dad. He looked at me and said, "Hey listen, W., I'll tell you something. You know you're doing a pretty good job there, but you've got to stay on message."

"You can't go adlibbing and going off the text to your -- you know you mangle words. Come on, W., people are going to think you were brought up by someone who couldn't finish a complete sen -- but I'll tell you this, I think you're doing a good job. There are still people dying in Bosnia Herze in a gadda davida. We've got to do more." But I told my son, I said, you know, there's a new breeze blowing out there, and we are breaking new wind. Well, breaking new ground, sure.

NOVAK: Mr. President -- Mr. George W. Bush President, you said at first you weren't going to interfere in the question of whether Trent Lott stayed as majority leader and then he left. And everybody says you pushed him out. What's the real story there?

MORRIS: These are just rumors. Rumors, Bob. And I think you know better than anybody -- you've been around in this town long enough to know that rumors -- Washington, D.C. is a rumor mill. And what you have heard is nothing more than Frist for the mill. I thought I'd throw a little joke in there.

BEGALA: Actually, Jim -- if I could talk to Jim Morris for just a second.

MORRIS: It's a relief. Thank you.

BEGALA: Well, it's spellbinding, because you do create these guys. It feels like we're sitting with them. But the huge story this month has been Trent Lott. And it's got to be tough. A very famous guy, powerful guy within the beltway. But, outside of the beltway, totally unknown. How do you deal with a new voice, a new figure, a new character bursting on the scene?

MORRIS: Well, it's tough. But when you have such a charged atmosphere, you know it all comes together. People watch the news, people spout their opinions. And political impressionists work feverishly. And now he's going to be gone, and what good is this?

But I search my heart. And I talked with the priest. Not just a priest, but a bishop. The Bishop of Desmond, no less. Reverend Tutu. And I told him, he knows that back in the deep dark morally repugnant days of apartheid I supported our country's policy of destructive engagement. The systematic denegregation (ph) of...

But I support affirmative -- I'm not such a bad guy. I have my good points. Mix a fine Bloody Mary and a mean Molotov Cocktail. I support affirmative action on my staff. I have had African-Americans. I have now serving on my staff an openly Latino gentleman.

BEGALA: That is great. If you can hang on for just a minute, we have to take a break. But please stay with us, because when we come back, we will have the greatest president of my life time right here on this stage, and he'll also bring his former running mate with him, all courtesy of Jim Morris. He'll help us speak to Bill Clinton and Al Gore, even when some of my fellow Democrats seeking to challenge the current president. We'll bring them up here as well.

But first, we'll get a check of the latest headlines in the CNN NEWS ALERT. So stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Merry Christmas. Welcome back to our Christmas Day edition of CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington, D.C. Now, joining us in the CROSSFIRE, a rare and special privilege. A man who needs no introduction, please welcome President Bill Clinton as portrayed by Jim Morris.

NOVAK: President Clinton -- Mr. President, now that you're out of office, are you having as much fun outside the White House as you had inside the White House?

MORRIS: I don't know if that's possible, Bob. But I will say this. That whatever you think of me, I kept every promise I intended to keep. You can back me up on that.

No, but we did accomplish a great deal. And, as a former president, I now am serving in my lovely -- my wife Hillary is now the senator from the state of New York, and I am now in the Senate spouse's club. I get to see Bob Dole once in a while on cordial terms. That is wonderful. And you see I'm not the kind of spouse who's gonna stay home and bake cookies all day.

No, he doesn't bake cookies all day, he orders out for pizza on the phone. Orders out of a little black book, actually. I'll take a slice of that. Bring along my little blue pills. But no, we're best buds now.

Certainly, if we have to go there, we'll go there, but I want the American people to know that I never cornered any woman in the Oval Office. It can't be done. That was an accurate, truthful statement.

I was telling the truth. And I was telling the truth when I said I did not have sex with that woman once. That was a true statement. I didn't go to law school here for nothing.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about...

MORRIS: Nice place. Hi, girl. How are you?

BEGALA: Let me ask you about Al Gore. That must have been a disappointment to you, Jim, to see -- have a guy who -- you know, you've done his impression for eight, nine, ten years, and this month he announces he's not going to run for president. That kind of cans your Al Gore routine, doesn't it?

MORRIS: Well, yes and now. I mean, he took two years off. Where was Al Gore?

Well, I was -- as a matter of fact, I was just trying to get to know myself a little better. For that purpose, I formed a fact- finding commission. I have no idea -- no, he knows who he is. He decided he didn't want to run because he didn't want to rehash the old debates. Maybe he'd do well -- well this time I'm going to have more of a sense of humor. Hi folks. How many -- how many Buddhist monks does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, because I wanted to be kept in the dark on that one. No, I don't think it would work for him.

No, certainly not. I'm going to run again. But wouldn't that be something if we could revise history and have like Mondale run against Reagan?

Mr. President, I'm telling the truth. I will raise taxes. Why don't you tell the American people, Mr. Reagan, the truth, what we already know. Well, the truth is nobody likes you.

(LAUGHTER)

MORRIS: Then we could jump ahead four years and -- you know, my friends, if you happen to be the son of Greek immigrants who came to this land, my friends looking for economic opportunity -- that's one word, economic opportunity. And I came here to talk about family values.

Hey, we don't need a president over -- you know, I think it would be fun. So, yes, my career is littered with the remains of many failed candidacies.

NOVAK: Jim, now that Al Gore is gone, what can we look forward to on the Democratic side in 2004?

MORRIS: Well, you know, it's anybody's guess right now. But I'm trying to work on the guys that are likely to run. Lieberman, Joe Lieberman. I have been watching a lot of old cartoons. Snagglepuss. You know, to get the voice down. Heavens to mergatroid.

And I'm working on John Kerry. I've been watching -- I don't have that Herman Munster thing down yet, but I'm working on it. Actually, he could have as a running mate Ross Perot. It could be like grandpa in the laboratory in the basement and the crazy aunt in the attic. We get the crazy aunt up there.

Because I'm just like you guys. I'm just watching the field and see what develops.

BEGALA: Oh, that's fantastic. I know you've got to go pretty soon, but I understand that you bring holiday greetings from some very famous and powerful people for our...

MORRIS: Right. And we're going to do that after the break, I think. I think.

BEGALA: OK.

NOVAK: We're going to take a break. And next: impressionist Jim Morris returns with more of the Gipper. President Ronald Reagan, plus holiday greetings from another favorite. You've got a real treat coming, folks. None other than Richard Milhouse Nixon.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to the Christmas Day edition of CROSSFIRE. On Christmas, everybody hopes their wishes will come true. And the Republicans' fondest wish would be for a return of President Ronald Reagan. And thanks to our impersonator Jim Morris, that wish can come true.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thanks for staying with us. Just before we ran out of time in that last segment, I asked if you were bringing any holiday greetings from any famous people in politics.

MORRIS: Oh, sure. We have to start out with Trent Lott. Don't we? Oh come all ye faithful, where did everybody go?

OK. Let's see, who can we hear from now? Ted Koppel doesn't celebrate today, the holiday, but he did light the candles on Hanukkah. Baruch Atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech ha'olam asher kidashanu -- and I must caution our family members, we will be running a little long, as we do have all eight candles to light tonight.

Let's see, Tom Brokaw perhaps. As we deck the hall with boughs of holly, fa la la la la la la la la. Now there's a guy who really jumped -- the whole media is playing with Trent Lott's name in the news; all these puns and everything. And it got kind of ridiculous.

I was watching "NBC Nightly News" and Tom Brokaw was singing lyrics from a Led Zeppelin song. Can you believe that? Not a whole lotta of love. Not a whole lotta love. Funny how you guys cover the news.

And who else do we have here?

NOVAK: Kissinger do you have?

MORRIS: Henry Kissinger. Well, we celebrate Hanukkah. And in my family, we start with eight presents and negotiate down to two. One of your colleagues, John McLaughlin (ph). (UNINTELLIGIBLE) quickly now. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) silent night, holy night. On a scale of zero to 10, tell me how calm and how bright it will be. Novakio (ph).

BEGALA: That brings back memories for you.

NOVAK: Who else do we have?

MORRIS: Well, I would like to say God bless America. This is the greatest land of all. And, as a matter of fact, I used to sing a little ditty back in my first term. When I got older, dying my hair many years ago, did you ever think I would end up this way, as president of the USA? Oh, cutting the budget, building up arms, I may start a war. Will you respect me and, well, well re-elect me in 1984? But of course we have come a long way in our society. We are better off today than we ever have been. And I would like at this time to introduce one of my predecessors, Mr. Richard Milhouse Nixon to close it out and to say, Merry Christmas to you all.

Well, this is how it really went down all those years ago. Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the White House, not a creature was stirring, not even a Milhouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Eisenhower knew that Santa would be there, the little (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

My wife's hair in curlers, a mudpack on her brow. I rolled ever to kiss her, but she said "No, not now." Then out on the lawn there arose such a clatter, I got up out of bed to see what was the matter. And what to my wondering eyes should appear, but Air Force One. I saw it perfectly clear, Bob.

And stepping off the plane I could just barely see. No, not Santa, but my henchmen three. It was a lonely night, I was so glad they came, that I whistled and shouted and called them by name. Now (UNINTELLIGIBLE), just listen. We'll raise hell tonight or my name ain't Nixon.

And they gave me a present that I began to unwrap. Whatever it is, I thought, must be crap. But, no, no, a tape recorder is just what I wanted. And now I can make any telephone haunted. So I gave them each a candy cane, I made them go away, because I had a new toy and I wanted to play. So I said "testing, one two" as they flew out of sight, expletive deleted to all and to all a good night.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: I really want to thank you. Jim Morris.

MORRIS: Thank you.

BEGALA: Jim, you made this a very special Christmas for us on CROSSFIRE. Jim Morris. The best political impersonator. Really terrific. Thank you very much. Jim Morris, ladies and gentlemen.

Next, we will unwrap some of the firebacks under our own Christmas tree here at CROSSFIRE. One of our viewers wants more than just a couple of new front teeth. Stay with us

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for your Christmas firebacks. Been sending a few letters to us, as well as Santa. Here is one.

Richard Ross in Mequon, Wisconsin writes: "Paul, I have read both your books and they are great. I will sit back and wait until 2004, watch the Democrats take total control of the White House and Congress. And once again work to fix the huge debt the Republicans left us. Republicans should read and reread your book." Well, because it will take them two readings to understand it, Richard. But thank you for that compliment.

NOVAK: I understand. Richard is such a fan, he's even colored your books.

John Flynn of Columbia, South Carolina says, "Why don't all of you Democrats get together and ask Fritz Hollings" -- that's Senator Fritz Hollings -- "why the confederate flag is an issue in South Carolina? Let's not forget, it was good old Fritz, then governor of South Carolina, who put the flag up to celebrate the confederacy in 1964. Let's get him on BET to explain what he was thinking about when he put the confederate flag on the South Carolina capital."

Right on, John. And you know what else you should explain? The many racist remarks that old Fritz has made over the years. Poor old Lott never even ventured into his racist territory.

BEGALA: You know, if the people of South Carolina didn't like Hollings, they could get rid of him. But he's not the leader of my party in the Senate. He's a terrific United States senator. His people sent him back.

And I think Lott should be given a pass and forgiven, and so should may man Fritz, who's a great guy. He's a great senator.

"Hey, Paul," writes Mark Marrin of St. Louis, Missour, "don't you just long for the days when all America had to worry about was who is our president sleeping with? All I want for Christmas is eight more years of Clinton." Mark, I am with you.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Which Clinton? We need to repeal the 22nd amendment. If we can't do that, let's elect Hillary.

NOVAK: OK. You know we have been having -- I have been having a little feud with the voters and listeners from Canada. So Martin O'Hanley (ph) of Alberta says, "How about a truce, Bob? Despite our differences, even the hapless Canadians want to wish you a Merry Christmas." Well thank you, Martin. And I didn't even know they celebrated Christmas in Canada, but I'm glad to know it.

BEGALA: Do you know what they have tomorrow in Canada that we don't have? Boxing Day.

(CROSSTALK)

MIKE MAHAR: Hi. I'm Mike Mahar (ph) from Washington, D.C. This year the Democratic Party invented two new strategies in campaigning. You have to be over 70, and if you are losing, you have to drop out of the race. No wonder they'll never take over the Senate.

NOVAK: Well, you know their theory is whatever it takes. And it didn't work with Fritz Mondale of Minnesota. So we ought to thank the lord for that. BEGALA: Well, of course, we're not going to start canning old people just out of public service. All the Bush cabinet's going to be gone. I mean, he's got more retreads there than Bubba's Used Tire Store in Austin, Texas, man. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MARK NASH: My name is Mark Nash (ph) from (UNINTELLIGIBLE), North Carolina. The "Wall Street Journal" noted on December 19 that one reason Republicans did so well in this November's election is because race wasn't an issue. Should the Republican Party continue to avoid the race issue and focus their attention on the war on terrorism?

NOVAK: I don't think the Republicans are hitting the race issue. What they are saying is that they have a disagreement with liberals like Paul over whether there should be racial quotas. And there are many people who don't believe that is a racial issue, and I'm one of them.

BEGALA: The Republican Party defeated Tony Sanchez in the governor's race in Texas by running racist ads against him because he's a Mexican-American. They defeated Roy Barnes in Georgia because they ran on a racist issue of returning a racist symbol to the Georgia flag.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ...Republicans didn't play the race card this year is not being candid. They played it and they won. And shame on them for doing it.

NOVAK: Were they bad candidates?

BEGALA: They were great candidates. From the left, I am Paul Begala. Merry Christmas to you. Goodnight for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: On the right, I'm Robert Novak. Merry Christmas. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 25, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: Merry Christmas, or is it Happy Holidays. Are we one nation under God or one nation politically correct? And are there Ten Commandments or just one? Thou shalt not offend thy neighbor with thine own religious attitude.
We'd like to ask Bill Clinton, Trent Lott, Henry Kissinger, Tom Daschle and President Bush, but we'll settle for political impersonator Jim Morris.

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE, and a Merry Christmas to everybody. In a minute, we'll ask a couple of guests why that's such a radical thing to say, Merry Christmas, on television today. Well, later, make history on CROSSFIRE. President Bush's one and Bush II; President Clinton, and, yes, President Ronald Reagan will join us, all of them courtesy of political impressionist Jim Morris. So stick around.

But first, we'll say it again. Not happy holidays, not seasoning greetings, but Merry Christmas. Why has the land of the free gotten so uptight that freedom of expression, especially religious expression, is the subject of lawsuits, political fights and shouting matches?

This year alone we've seen the Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional because it contains the phrase "under God." A federal court ordered Alabama's chief justice to remove a monument containing the Ten Commandments from the state's judicial building. The order is being appealed.

And various cities had fights over nativity scenes, menorahs, and other expressions of religion freedom. Is "thou shalt not offend" America's new amendment? In the CROSSFIRE tonight are the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And in Lynchburg, Virginia, Liberty University founder, chancellor, the Reverend Jerry Fallwell.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us. Reverend Barry Lynn, Reverend Jerry Falwell, a very Merry Christmas to you, sir.

REV. JERRY FALWELL, FOUNDER AND CHANCELLOR, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: And Merry Christmas to you.

BEGALA: Thank you, sir, for joining us. This year, one of the most contentious issued turned on the issue of race. And I don't want to revisit all of that, but it did remind me of a particularly dark period in the 2000 campaign, when the nominee you supported for president, Governor Bush, now President Bush, went to Bob Jones University.

He later defended it by saying this -- and let me quote what Bush said about Bob Jones University. He said, "Bob Jones University was based on the bible." That's what he said. Do you believe, as an expert on the bible, the bible teaches anti-Catholic bigotry and that black and white people shouldn't fall in love with each other?

FALWELL: Well, I won't go there, because I think you know what I believe. But I don't believe that the president's going to Bob Jones University or speaking anywhere, any place, means that he therefore endorses all the views and values and doctrines of that place. I believe with all my heart that George W. Bush loves every person alike, and I, with all my heart, support him to this present day.

BEGALA: And I admire that in you, but the question was, he didn't simply go there. He did say that university was based on the bible. It is a university that teaches my faith, the Catholic Church. They call it a cult, they call the pope an anti-Christ. And it teaches that black and white people ought not fall in love with each other. And, again, I ask you, Bush says that's based on the bible. Is it in your view?

FALWELL: Well, no. What he said was that the university was started, founded from the bible. And Dr. Bob Jones Sr. did just that. They did have two bad policies there, maybe more than two. I suspect all of our schools have some things we can improve on.

But, at the same time, the school was founded upon the bible. And to Bob Jones III's credit, he is the new president, he is the current president, he went on "LARRY KING LIVE" and corrected that policy and apologized for it. And he did not establish, but he did remove it. Bob Jones University is a great school.

NOVAK: Reverend Barry Lynn, in one of the great controversies that we have had in this past year over church and state was the guy named Michael Newdow (ph), who has been on this program a couple of times. He went into court to get the "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance. And one of the reasons he said was that his daughter was just embarrassed in school not being a Christian.

Now, the girl's mother, Sandra Banning (ph), the trouble is that we have reporters, and she told a reporter this: "I was concerned that the American public would be led to believe that my daughter is an atheist or that she's been harmed by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, including the words 'one nation under God.' We are practicing Christians and are active in our church." Isn't that an outrage for somebody to go to court and misrepresent his little daughter?

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEP. OF CHURCH AND STATE: You know, I don't know much about Michael Newdow's (ph) family life. I really care about the Constitution and the principle that he established. And the principle that was established in that decision was that, in 1954, when the Congress of the United States added two words, "under God," to a purely secular pledge, a pledge of allegiance that had gotten us through two world wars and out of the great depression, that somehow we had to change that and make it an affirmation of a religious belief.

That's inappropriate. That's certainly not what Congress is supposed to be doing. They should be solving a lot of problems. Making us more religious is not one of them.

NOVAK: Barry, I think you made my point for me, but I want to make sure I understood it. You're saying that, as long as you get your decision out of the courts, however it is, it really doesn't matter if you misrepresent how a young girl who was a Christian is represented by her father? It doesn't really matter? Anything goes? Is that right?

LYNN: No, it doesn't. But, as a matter of fact, the court already rejected this argument and said it didn't really matter what he did or didn't do. The principle was the one that was important. And, of course -- see, I believe that what courts ought to be doing is looking for the truth. And if they get it from a Michael Newdow (ph) case or a Barry Lynn case or anybody else, it's the principle that counts.

And in this country, I know you hate to believe this, we're founded on the notion of a separation of church and state, not the unification of church and state. Because that helps religion and government.

BEGALA: Reverend Fallwell, you said (UNINTELLIGIBLE). A wall of separation between church and state, as you know very well...

FALWELL: That is not found in the Constitution anywhere.

BEGALA: That's correct. Reverend, it came from Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence. He wrote a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, in which he said that's what the first amendment does. It erects a wall of separation. And I think Jefferson, with all due respect to you, probably knows more about our Constitution than you do, sir.

FALWELL: Well, I would say that there's not a word about separation of church and state. Further, this same Dr. Newdow (ph) wants chaplains out of the Congress. He wants "In God we trust" off the coin. I've heard him say those very words. And that's what Barry Lynn wants as well.

Barry Lynn absolutely wants the same thing. And the end result is...

LYNN: What's wrong with that? Why should we be paying chaplains $150,000 a year, one in the House and one in the Senate, out of taxpayer funds, when James Madison himself said he made a big mistake voting for that in the first Congress. He said it would have been much better if Americans, including members of Congress, had been asked to contribute voluntarily. That would be a good example that the Congress should have set for the rest of us.

Why do you -- are you obsessed with this idea that government has to promote your religion, Dr. Fallwell? Most of us who are deeply religious believe we're doing it fine without the help of the United States government.

(CROSSTALK)

FALWELL: I don't believe government should promote religion. That it, likewise, should not be hostile towards religion. And that is what Barry Lynn is and that is what the ACLU is. To give you an example, the University of North Carolina required its freshmen to do a study course on a pro-Islamic book before they came to school at Chapel Hill. The ACLU defended the University of North Carolina in that matter.

Had that been a Billy Graham book, an evangelical book, a Roman Catholic book required by UNC, they would not have supported. They would have opposed it because they're hostile to Christianity.

LYNN: Wait a minute. Jerry Fallwell, you are many things, but you are not a mind reader. And you do not have any idea what the ACLU of North Carolina would or wouldn't have done. The truth is, religious sensors -- excuse me. No, religious sensors attempted to take one book and censor it from the curriculum for freshman, and the courts didn't buy it and you know it.

NOVAK: If I could make one historical correction on my esteemed friend, Paul, Thomas Jefferson was in France when they drafted the Constitution. He had very little...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: He had very little to do with it and he didn't like it much. But let me just say this...

FALWELL: Don't expect a liberal to care about the Constitution.

NOVAK: No.

BEGALA: I take offense to that, Reverend Falwell, and I ask you to retract that. I love this Constitution.

FALWELL: I won't (ph) retract it. As long as you try to take God out of the public square, I'll do anything but retract it. (CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: This is Christmas day.

FALWELL: The fact is, this is a nation under God, built on the Judeo Christian (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ACLU to the contrary, notwithstanding.

NOVAK: Barry Lynn, let's just say that the founding fathers, who were good, not perfect, but what they wanted, if you read their intent, read what they said, was they wanted to prevent the United States from having an established religion. What was the established religion? It was the Episcopalian religion. That's what they were worried about.

LYNN: No, I'm sorry. I got to correct your history, Bob. Because, the truth is, the framers of our Constitution had the same debate we're having right now. It's just that my side won and your side lost. What they wanted to do was to protect the integrity of religion by making sure governments wouldn't overregulate it and to protect the integrity of government by not having them make decisions that are basically theological.

That's a very simple separation. It's the most powerful idea that has perhaps ever been created in American political philosophy.

NOVAK: It's not what they were after, though.

BEGALA: What we are after right now is a break. Hang on just a second, Barry Lynn. Reverend Falwell, stay with us. In a minute, we're going to ask our guests if they agree with a leading Republican who found a connection between the teaching of evolution and a Christmas carol.

And later, President Bush, President Clinton, even former President Reagan will join CROSSFIRE, thanks to political impersonator Jim Morris. You will not want to miss that.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to this Christmas day edition of CROSSFIRE. Merry Christmas to you. We are discussing religion with the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and Liberty University Chancellor, the Reverend Jerry Falwell. Gentlemen, thanks for staying with us.

LYNN: Certainly.

NOVAK: Reverend Lynn, we were talking before about the courts in Alabama, saying that they couldn't put the ten commandments up on the judicial building. And they took a poll of Alabama voters, Mobile registered at the University of South Alabama and asked a couple of questions. "Do you agree or disagree with the monument?" Seventy- seven percent supported the monument; 15 percent opposed. Then they asked, "Do you approve or disapprove of having the legality of this settled by courts?" Only 30 percent agreed sending it to the courts, 58 percent disapproved. Should the people of Alabama have some say in whether they can put the Ten Commandments up on the state judicial building?

LYNN: Yeah, they should have some say, but not the final say. Because someone that has to be sensitive to and concerned about the civil rights and liberties of even the minorities have to decide. And that's why the courts are there, and that's why we have a Bill of Rights to protect the overwhelming...

NOVAK: What rights does that violate, having the Ten Commandments up there?

LYNN: This was not just up there. This was a two and a half ton granite monument that was brought into the center of the judicial building under cover of darkness; something that always makes me suspicious to begin with, under cover of darkness.

NOVAK: That offends you?

LYNN: No. What offends me is the fact that this judge knows full well that most people in Alabama are Christians. And he is going to bully his emphasis on that and his promotion of that religion with a two and a half ton monument. Most people, I think, would be just satisfied if politicians, including judges, obeyed at least most of the Ten Commandments instead of putting them up on gigantic granite monuments.

BEGALA: Reverend Falwell, let's talk about what offends the Constitution. In the earlier segment we just had, as you were busy committing the sin of bearing false witness against me, you claimed that Jefferson somehow was...

FALWELL: You may be the one liberal exception.

BEGALA: He was not, sir. Thomas Jefferson, as you know, wrote the Declaration of Independence. It is replete with references to God. But it's not a legally binding document. The Constitution is, and the Constitution has nary a reference to God or providence or to our creator. Doesn't that tell you that the founding fathers wanted that separation?

FALWELL: I beg your pardon. The Constitution is concluded with "In the year of our lord" and the date there. That acknowledgement of God is right in the Constitution.

BEGALA: That's a far cry from the declaration, though, which is replete with appeals to God.

FALWELL: And furthermore, you read all the documents of the early days of our founders. This is nation built upon the Judeo Christian ethic. The putting of the Ten Commandments on the courthouse, it ought to be in every courthouse in America. By the way, that isn't just Christian. That happens to be Judeo as well. And it happens to be the standards upon which our American law was founded.

LYNN: That is nonsense. That is not the basis of the law of the United States and you know that.

(CROSSTALK)

FALWELL: I want to say something that may give a stroke to Barry, but I want to wish him a Merry Christmas on this special night to people all over this world who are watching in the name of the virgin-born, sinless, crucified (UNINTELLIGIBLE) savior, unashamedly, I love him and trust him as my savior.

NOVAK: Does that offend you him saying that?

LYNN: No, it certainly doesn't. As a fellow Christian, I thank you for that and I wish you a Merry Christmas. The interesting thing is, though, neither one of us needed the government or the president of the United States to have us have this exchange. That's what religious freedom is all about.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: I want to ask you something, Barry. You know, just this morning I was talking to somebody who parked by car. And the guy says to me, "Seasons greetings." And I said "Merry Christmas." And he looks at me and says, "Yeah, Merry Christmas." Why are people afraid to say Merry Christmas?

LYNN: Well, because I think corporate America, as well as government...

(CROSSTALK)

LYNN: No, I haven't intimidated the guy who parks Bob Novak's car. I don't even know him. But let me explain...

(CROSSTALK)

LYNN: No -- but the point is that we do recognize that there is a diversity. And we celebrate -- at least some of us do -- a celebration of the mosaic of religious diversity in America. So, in this season of the year, when we have recently passed Ramada, we've also had Jewish celebrations, even Wiccan celebrations, we're actually going to say, Bob, seasons greetings, and cover a whole lot of people. It's like saying peace on earth. It's not specific to a religion.

FALWELL: I'm not going to say that.

LYNN: Well what do you want to say?

BEGALA: We're running out of time. I want to ask you...

FALWELL: I'm going to say glory to God in the highest and thank God for the gift of God's love, the lord Jesus Christ.

LYNN: But not peace on earth. BEGALA: And amen to that, reverend. But let me ask you this. Tom DeLay is actually my congressman where I grew up in Sugarland, Texas, and he's about as loony as he could be. He gave a speech after the Columbine shooting in which he claimed that the teaching of evolution, among other things, had led these students to murder their fellow students. Now you don't agree with that? You don't believe teaching of evolution leads kids to kill, do you?

FALWELL: I read his exact words, and what he said was that we teach people that they were not created by God in God's image, but rather evolved from a lower form of animal life. We should not be surprised when they act accordingly.

BEGALA: So you agree. Teaching evolution...

FALWELL: I happen to believe that the bible teaches that God created every one of us in his image, body, soul spirit. And I agree with Tom DeLay.

NOVAK: That's the last word. Jerry Fallwell, Merry Christmas to you. Merry Christmas to you, Barry Lynn.

BEGALA: Merry Christams, Reverend Falwell. Good to see you.

NOVAK: Still to come: President Bush, Clinton and Reagan. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) some of the political leaders who join us next in the CROSSFIRE thanks to political impersonator Jim Morris. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Today, because it's Christmas, we thought we'd give you a little CROSSFIRE gift. If there's one thing about our current president that we can all agree on, it's that he doesn't do many television interviews. So we thought you might want to hear from your president.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, courtesy of political impressionist Jim Morris, the honorable George W. Bush, President of the United States.

JIM MORRIS, IMPERSONATOR: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

BEGALA: Mr. President, thank you for coming on CROSSFIRE. Merry Christmas to you.

MORRIS: Merry Christmas to you, too.

BEGALA: I don't know if you could hear coming up on the limo, but we just had a debate between Jerry Falwell and Barry Lynn from Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Where do you fall on this tricky question of separating church and state, sir?

MORRIS: I want to be a uniter, not a divider. I am a united, not a divider. I'm a joker, I'm a smoker, I'm a midnight toker. And I believe in separation of church and state. Why God has been expelled from our classroom, though, I don't know. Was he caught cheating on his SATs? I don't think so. God wouldn't cheat. He doesn't have to cheat. Knows all the answers. So I hope we can all pretty much celebrate a wonderful holiday without all these divisive issues.

NOVAK: Mr. President, in this Christmas season, we're getting ready for an attack on Iraq. Why are we doing it? Why are we going to attack Iraq?

MORRIS: Because we're Americans, Bob. And we value human life, unlike those who oppose us, who deserve to die. We're Americans.

BEGALA: Very good point. But one of the things that bothers me about your defense position is not just Iraq, but we just had another failed test of missile defense, and yet you want to go forward with this Star Wars missile defense. Why, sir?

MORRIS: Well, I'm aware of fact that three out of eight of these missile tests failed. Don't forget you got to start somewhere. And, as a matter of fact, we had a similar problem with the trident (ph) submarine. As a matter of fact, four out of five nations surveyed today recommend trident (ph) to their navies who choose subs.

NOVAK: That's very good. You know, Mr. President, you're kind enough to fly in by the helicopter from Camp David. You were at Camp David with your family today. What in the world do you do there? Do you just go over briefing papers? Do you have any fun there at all?

MORRIS: I appreciate it. I do. I do. As a matter of fact, I'm reading -- gonna polish it off in a couple days, a little volume called the "Fall of the Roman Empire" by Gibbon (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But I'm also reading some other philosophy. Renee Descarte. I was inspired by him when he said -- or maybe it was Neil Diamond -- when he said, I think, therefore I am, I said.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: That's pretty heavy philosophy. But while you're at Camp David, I know your family, your father, the former president, and Barbara Bush have come up. It's got to be helpful in the job that you have to have a dad you can turn to for advice who has had the same job, isn't it?

MORRIS: Well, I asked my daddy how he thought I was doing. He said pretty good, W., but -- he looked at me and said, maybe I can do an impression of my dad. He looked at me and said, "Hey listen, W., I'll tell you something. You know you're doing a pretty good job there, but you've got to stay on message."

"You can't go adlibbing and going off the text to your -- you know you mangle words. Come on, W., people are going to think you were brought up by someone who couldn't finish a complete sen -- but I'll tell you this, I think you're doing a good job. There are still people dying in Bosnia Herze in a gadda davida. We've got to do more." But I told my son, I said, you know, there's a new breeze blowing out there, and we are breaking new wind. Well, breaking new ground, sure.

NOVAK: Mr. President -- Mr. George W. Bush President, you said at first you weren't going to interfere in the question of whether Trent Lott stayed as majority leader and then he left. And everybody says you pushed him out. What's the real story there?

MORRIS: These are just rumors. Rumors, Bob. And I think you know better than anybody -- you've been around in this town long enough to know that rumors -- Washington, D.C. is a rumor mill. And what you have heard is nothing more than Frist for the mill. I thought I'd throw a little joke in there.

BEGALA: Actually, Jim -- if I could talk to Jim Morris for just a second.

MORRIS: It's a relief. Thank you.

BEGALA: Well, it's spellbinding, because you do create these guys. It feels like we're sitting with them. But the huge story this month has been Trent Lott. And it's got to be tough. A very famous guy, powerful guy within the beltway. But, outside of the beltway, totally unknown. How do you deal with a new voice, a new figure, a new character bursting on the scene?

MORRIS: Well, it's tough. But when you have such a charged atmosphere, you know it all comes together. People watch the news, people spout their opinions. And political impressionists work feverishly. And now he's going to be gone, and what good is this?

But I search my heart. And I talked with the priest. Not just a priest, but a bishop. The Bishop of Desmond, no less. Reverend Tutu. And I told him, he knows that back in the deep dark morally repugnant days of apartheid I supported our country's policy of destructive engagement. The systematic denegregation (ph) of...

But I support affirmative -- I'm not such a bad guy. I have my good points. Mix a fine Bloody Mary and a mean Molotov Cocktail. I support affirmative action on my staff. I have had African-Americans. I have now serving on my staff an openly Latino gentleman.

BEGALA: That is great. If you can hang on for just a minute, we have to take a break. But please stay with us, because when we come back, we will have the greatest president of my life time right here on this stage, and he'll also bring his former running mate with him, all courtesy of Jim Morris. He'll help us speak to Bill Clinton and Al Gore, even when some of my fellow Democrats seeking to challenge the current president. We'll bring them up here as well.

But first, we'll get a check of the latest headlines in the CNN NEWS ALERT. So stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Merry Christmas. Welcome back to our Christmas Day edition of CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington, D.C. Now, joining us in the CROSSFIRE, a rare and special privilege. A man who needs no introduction, please welcome President Bill Clinton as portrayed by Jim Morris.

NOVAK: President Clinton -- Mr. President, now that you're out of office, are you having as much fun outside the White House as you had inside the White House?

MORRIS: I don't know if that's possible, Bob. But I will say this. That whatever you think of me, I kept every promise I intended to keep. You can back me up on that.

No, but we did accomplish a great deal. And, as a former president, I now am serving in my lovely -- my wife Hillary is now the senator from the state of New York, and I am now in the Senate spouse's club. I get to see Bob Dole once in a while on cordial terms. That is wonderful. And you see I'm not the kind of spouse who's gonna stay home and bake cookies all day.

No, he doesn't bake cookies all day, he orders out for pizza on the phone. Orders out of a little black book, actually. I'll take a slice of that. Bring along my little blue pills. But no, we're best buds now.

Certainly, if we have to go there, we'll go there, but I want the American people to know that I never cornered any woman in the Oval Office. It can't be done. That was an accurate, truthful statement.

I was telling the truth. And I was telling the truth when I said I did not have sex with that woman once. That was a true statement. I didn't go to law school here for nothing.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about...

MORRIS: Nice place. Hi, girl. How are you?

BEGALA: Let me ask you about Al Gore. That must have been a disappointment to you, Jim, to see -- have a guy who -- you know, you've done his impression for eight, nine, ten years, and this month he announces he's not going to run for president. That kind of cans your Al Gore routine, doesn't it?

MORRIS: Well, yes and now. I mean, he took two years off. Where was Al Gore?

Well, I was -- as a matter of fact, I was just trying to get to know myself a little better. For that purpose, I formed a fact- finding commission. I have no idea -- no, he knows who he is. He decided he didn't want to run because he didn't want to rehash the old debates. Maybe he'd do well -- well this time I'm going to have more of a sense of humor. Hi folks. How many -- how many Buddhist monks does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, because I wanted to be kept in the dark on that one. No, I don't think it would work for him.

No, certainly not. I'm going to run again. But wouldn't that be something if we could revise history and have like Mondale run against Reagan?

Mr. President, I'm telling the truth. I will raise taxes. Why don't you tell the American people, Mr. Reagan, the truth, what we already know. Well, the truth is nobody likes you.

(LAUGHTER)

MORRIS: Then we could jump ahead four years and -- you know, my friends, if you happen to be the son of Greek immigrants who came to this land, my friends looking for economic opportunity -- that's one word, economic opportunity. And I came here to talk about family values.

Hey, we don't need a president over -- you know, I think it would be fun. So, yes, my career is littered with the remains of many failed candidacies.

NOVAK: Jim, now that Al Gore is gone, what can we look forward to on the Democratic side in 2004?

MORRIS: Well, you know, it's anybody's guess right now. But I'm trying to work on the guys that are likely to run. Lieberman, Joe Lieberman. I have been watching a lot of old cartoons. Snagglepuss. You know, to get the voice down. Heavens to mergatroid.

And I'm working on John Kerry. I've been watching -- I don't have that Herman Munster thing down yet, but I'm working on it. Actually, he could have as a running mate Ross Perot. It could be like grandpa in the laboratory in the basement and the crazy aunt in the attic. We get the crazy aunt up there.

Because I'm just like you guys. I'm just watching the field and see what develops.

BEGALA: Oh, that's fantastic. I know you've got to go pretty soon, but I understand that you bring holiday greetings from some very famous and powerful people for our...

MORRIS: Right. And we're going to do that after the break, I think. I think.

BEGALA: OK.

NOVAK: We're going to take a break. And next: impressionist Jim Morris returns with more of the Gipper. President Ronald Reagan, plus holiday greetings from another favorite. You've got a real treat coming, folks. None other than Richard Milhouse Nixon.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to the Christmas Day edition of CROSSFIRE. On Christmas, everybody hopes their wishes will come true. And the Republicans' fondest wish would be for a return of President Ronald Reagan. And thanks to our impersonator Jim Morris, that wish can come true.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thanks for staying with us. Just before we ran out of time in that last segment, I asked if you were bringing any holiday greetings from any famous people in politics.

MORRIS: Oh, sure. We have to start out with Trent Lott. Don't we? Oh come all ye faithful, where did everybody go?

OK. Let's see, who can we hear from now? Ted Koppel doesn't celebrate today, the holiday, but he did light the candles on Hanukkah. Baruch Atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech ha'olam asher kidashanu -- and I must caution our family members, we will be running a little long, as we do have all eight candles to light tonight.

Let's see, Tom Brokaw perhaps. As we deck the hall with boughs of holly, fa la la la la la la la la. Now there's a guy who really jumped -- the whole media is playing with Trent Lott's name in the news; all these puns and everything. And it got kind of ridiculous.

I was watching "NBC Nightly News" and Tom Brokaw was singing lyrics from a Led Zeppelin song. Can you believe that? Not a whole lotta of love. Not a whole lotta love. Funny how you guys cover the news.

And who else do we have here?

NOVAK: Kissinger do you have?

MORRIS: Henry Kissinger. Well, we celebrate Hanukkah. And in my family, we start with eight presents and negotiate down to two. One of your colleagues, John McLaughlin (ph). (UNINTELLIGIBLE) quickly now. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) silent night, holy night. On a scale of zero to 10, tell me how calm and how bright it will be. Novakio (ph).

BEGALA: That brings back memories for you.

NOVAK: Who else do we have?

MORRIS: Well, I would like to say God bless America. This is the greatest land of all. And, as a matter of fact, I used to sing a little ditty back in my first term. When I got older, dying my hair many years ago, did you ever think I would end up this way, as president of the USA? Oh, cutting the budget, building up arms, I may start a war. Will you respect me and, well, well re-elect me in 1984? But of course we have come a long way in our society. We are better off today than we ever have been. And I would like at this time to introduce one of my predecessors, Mr. Richard Milhouse Nixon to close it out and to say, Merry Christmas to you all.

Well, this is how it really went down all those years ago. Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the White House, not a creature was stirring, not even a Milhouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Eisenhower knew that Santa would be there, the little (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

My wife's hair in curlers, a mudpack on her brow. I rolled ever to kiss her, but she said "No, not now." Then out on the lawn there arose such a clatter, I got up out of bed to see what was the matter. And what to my wondering eyes should appear, but Air Force One. I saw it perfectly clear, Bob.

And stepping off the plane I could just barely see. No, not Santa, but my henchmen three. It was a lonely night, I was so glad they came, that I whistled and shouted and called them by name. Now (UNINTELLIGIBLE), just listen. We'll raise hell tonight or my name ain't Nixon.

And they gave me a present that I began to unwrap. Whatever it is, I thought, must be crap. But, no, no, a tape recorder is just what I wanted. And now I can make any telephone haunted. So I gave them each a candy cane, I made them go away, because I had a new toy and I wanted to play. So I said "testing, one two" as they flew out of sight, expletive deleted to all and to all a good night.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: I really want to thank you. Jim Morris.

MORRIS: Thank you.

BEGALA: Jim, you made this a very special Christmas for us on CROSSFIRE. Jim Morris. The best political impersonator. Really terrific. Thank you very much. Jim Morris, ladies and gentlemen.

Next, we will unwrap some of the firebacks under our own Christmas tree here at CROSSFIRE. One of our viewers wants more than just a couple of new front teeth. Stay with us

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for your Christmas firebacks. Been sending a few letters to us, as well as Santa. Here is one.

Richard Ross in Mequon, Wisconsin writes: "Paul, I have read both your books and they are great. I will sit back and wait until 2004, watch the Democrats take total control of the White House and Congress. And once again work to fix the huge debt the Republicans left us. Republicans should read and reread your book." Well, because it will take them two readings to understand it, Richard. But thank you for that compliment.

NOVAK: I understand. Richard is such a fan, he's even colored your books.

John Flynn of Columbia, South Carolina says, "Why don't all of you Democrats get together and ask Fritz Hollings" -- that's Senator Fritz Hollings -- "why the confederate flag is an issue in South Carolina? Let's not forget, it was good old Fritz, then governor of South Carolina, who put the flag up to celebrate the confederacy in 1964. Let's get him on BET to explain what he was thinking about when he put the confederate flag on the South Carolina capital."

Right on, John. And you know what else you should explain? The many racist remarks that old Fritz has made over the years. Poor old Lott never even ventured into his racist territory.

BEGALA: You know, if the people of South Carolina didn't like Hollings, they could get rid of him. But he's not the leader of my party in the Senate. He's a terrific United States senator. His people sent him back.

And I think Lott should be given a pass and forgiven, and so should may man Fritz, who's a great guy. He's a great senator.

"Hey, Paul," writes Mark Marrin of St. Louis, Missour, "don't you just long for the days when all America had to worry about was who is our president sleeping with? All I want for Christmas is eight more years of Clinton." Mark, I am with you.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Which Clinton? We need to repeal the 22nd amendment. If we can't do that, let's elect Hillary.

NOVAK: OK. You know we have been having -- I have been having a little feud with the voters and listeners from Canada. So Martin O'Hanley (ph) of Alberta says, "How about a truce, Bob? Despite our differences, even the hapless Canadians want to wish you a Merry Christmas." Well thank you, Martin. And I didn't even know they celebrated Christmas in Canada, but I'm glad to know it.

BEGALA: Do you know what they have tomorrow in Canada that we don't have? Boxing Day.

(CROSSTALK)

MIKE MAHAR: Hi. I'm Mike Mahar (ph) from Washington, D.C. This year the Democratic Party invented two new strategies in campaigning. You have to be over 70, and if you are losing, you have to drop out of the race. No wonder they'll never take over the Senate.

NOVAK: Well, you know their theory is whatever it takes. And it didn't work with Fritz Mondale of Minnesota. So we ought to thank the lord for that. BEGALA: Well, of course, we're not going to start canning old people just out of public service. All the Bush cabinet's going to be gone. I mean, he's got more retreads there than Bubba's Used Tire Store in Austin, Texas, man. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MARK NASH: My name is Mark Nash (ph) from (UNINTELLIGIBLE), North Carolina. The "Wall Street Journal" noted on December 19 that one reason Republicans did so well in this November's election is because race wasn't an issue. Should the Republican Party continue to avoid the race issue and focus their attention on the war on terrorism?

NOVAK: I don't think the Republicans are hitting the race issue. What they are saying is that they have a disagreement with liberals like Paul over whether there should be racial quotas. And there are many people who don't believe that is a racial issue, and I'm one of them.

BEGALA: The Republican Party defeated Tony Sanchez in the governor's race in Texas by running racist ads against him because he's a Mexican-American. They defeated Roy Barnes in Georgia because they ran on a racist issue of returning a racist symbol to the Georgia flag.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ...Republicans didn't play the race card this year is not being candid. They played it and they won. And shame on them for doing it.

NOVAK: Were they bad candidates?

BEGALA: They were great candidates. From the left, I am Paul Begala. Merry Christmas to you. Goodnight for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: On the right, I'm Robert Novak. Merry Christmas. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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