Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Crossfire

Gephardt, Sharpton Poised to Enter Election Fray; Should Congress Reinstate Military Draft?; Interview With Don King

Aired January 03, 2003 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: Look who else wants to be commander-in-chief, but the current one may be too busy to notice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're acting now to protect the American people and to shape a future of peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: In that case, should the U.S. bring back the draft?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: I'm talking about mandatory service.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a congressman who says yes. But he isn't war mongering.

And, will his next round be a political one? Don King talks boxing, politics and maybe having a street named after him. Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE, where it's another day and another presidential wannabe among the Democrats. We'll also ask Congressman Charlie Rangel if he really and truly wants to bring back the draft.

And in our main event, we'll go another round with boxing legend Don King. So let's climb through the ropes and start things off with the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."

Congressman Dick Gephardt of Missouri launched his second try for the Democratic presidential nomination -- sort of, that is. Typical of Gephardt's political career, he zigged when he should have zagged. He was supposed to announce a presidential exploratory committee at a fund-raiser January 22, but all surprise was killed when a young aide prematurely faxed invitations to offices all over Washington, including CNN's. And then Gephardt learned that the Reverend Al Sharpton will get there a day ahead, filing his papers for an exploratory committee January 21. The Reverend Al, who has never held public office, said today he was more qualified than any other Democrat. I tend to agree.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Wishful thinking. You know, as you know, but the audience should know, I worked for Dick Gephardt the last time he ran for president 14 years ago. I think without me he has got a much better chance. So he has been on CROSSFIRE before. I suspect he will be back to defend his (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NOVAK: You think he's too decent a guy to be a Democratic nominee?

BEGALA: He's too decent a guy to come on CROSSFIRE, but does it anyway, and that's all I care about.

Trent Lott may no longer be Senate Republican leader, but his consolation prize ain't bad either. The Missouri (sic) Republican told the Associated Press today he'll take over the Senate Rules and Administration Committee, bumping aside Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania. We shall see, as Senator Lott uses his new position to advance his newfound support for affirmative action and other programs to help African-Americans get a fair shot at the American dream, or if his Republican colleagues believe that the friendlier face of Tennessee heart surgeon Bill Frist as their leader can distract voters from their true positions on issues.

I think it's going to take a lot more than cosmetic changes to persuade African-American that Republicans have changed. Katherine Harris and Tammy Faye Bakker combined don't have enough makeup to cover up that record.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, when Trent Lott apologized, you accepted the apology here because you wanted to keep him as majority leader to keep pounding him. And now that he's out, you're hitting him again. I knew that what you do is you try to use that issue to try to hurt Republicans. And by the way, Santorum was not bounced aside. He could have kept the position. He did it voluntarily.

BEGALA: Of course, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) said set him aside. Second, you don't have any idea why I accepted Trent Lott's apology. I don't like you saying what my motives were, Bob Novak.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: And I didn't attack Lott tonight. I simply stated that he said he's now for affirmative action. I want to hold him to that pledge.

NOVAK: The new house Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California said today, the Democrats will unveil their own economic stimulus package Monday. Just by coincidence one day before President Bush is scheduled to release his.

Now, Congresswoman Pelosi would not give a hint of what she will propose, and as usual she spent most of her time bashing what she thinks the president will say. Yes, she was attacking tax cuts for the rich, what she called "the high end." Democratic leaders come and go, but their Marxist message is monotonous. Let's redistribute income. If you think it might work politically, ask George McGovern, Fritz Mondale, Mike Dukakis and then Fritz Mondale again this year.

BEGALA: Well, why don't you ask Bill Clinton, who actually had a tax program that helped working people. Asked rich people to pay a little more to pay off the deficit. Everybody got richer. Poor people and rich people. I mean, I know that must have broken your heart to see poor people get rich.

NOVAK: I didn't get richer. I didn't get richer.

BEGALA: Oh, you got so much richer, Bob. You did very well under Clinton. But you always do because you work hard.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer yesterday repeated one of President Bush's favorite lines, suggesting that the Bush recession started under President Clinton. There's only one problem with that story. It's false, fictional, it is fabricated. In short, it's a fib. Martin Feldstein was the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Ronald Reagan. He advised Mr. Bush on his tax cut. He is no liberal, yet his organization, the National Bureau of Economic Research, reports that the recession began in March of 2001, the third month of George W. Bush's presidency.

Of course, he would know that if Mr. Bush had read the best selling book "It's Still the Economy, Stupid." George Bush inherited the largest, strongest economic boom in history and he squandered it. Kind of surprising to me, since I always figured if Bush would be good at anything, it would be at inheriting things.

NOVAK: You know, the truth of the matter, Paul is that the Commerce Department under our good friend, Undersecretary Rob Shapiro, your friend and mine, they cooked the books. They just -- that's why these economists get mixed up, because they didn't tell how bad the economy was going.

But I want to ask you about a little figure. You referred to your best selling book. I checked on Amazon.com and it ranks nationally number 2,624. Is Amazon.com wrong?

BEGALA: Well, no, that's just on Amazon. It sold -- "The Washington Post" made the best seller list, made the best seller list of "Dallas Morning News." If everybody who dislikes Bob Novak and disagrees with him buys it, it will be number one in every best seller list.

NOVAK: OK. Who was that unusually distinguished and somehow familiar looking linesman at the Orange Bowl football game in Miami last night? Wasn't he talking about favors of the FBI the last time we saw him on television? He was one of the Senate's most distinguished Democrats, Senator Bob Graham of Florida, who is thinking of running for president. Working at the Orange Bowl marked his 386th workday, where he pretends to be a working Joe. Coincidentally, this workday came on national TV, in a game played by the University of Iowa and witnessed by millions of residents of a state, Iowa, where the first Democratic caucuses will be held. Way to go, Bob Graham.

BEGALA: Good for you, though. It was a pretty good game. It was a bit of a blow-out, but I think Bob Graham, if he gets in this race, will really bring another dimension. He has great expertise on intelligence matters, on national security matters. I think President Bush is worried about him getting in.

NOVAK: I think John Edwards is worried about him, too.

BEGALA: I think they are.

Well, the Bush administration today announced it will no longer issue the government's monthly report on mass layoffs. Not because there haven't been any. In fact, the last report on Christmas Eve showed that U.S. corporations laid off more than 240,000 workers in 2,150 different mass layoffs.

Congressional Democrats are committed to picking up the slack. They've produced a new chart measuring job creation in the Bush administration and comparing it with Mr. Bush's predecessors -- 69,000 Americans have lost their jobs every month since George W. Bush took office. That's 1.5 million in all. By contrast, the economy generated more than 235,000 jobs per months under President Clinton, and 224,000 jobs per month in the second Reagan term.

Mr. Bush's answer? Hide the facts, deny benefits for the unemployed, but cut the dividend tax for wealthy investors. After all, if you can't cover things up, help the rich and screw working people, why be a Republican?

NOVAK: Let me tell you the way it's going to work, Paul. I know you don't understand the economy very well. But if you will end the double taxation of dividends, good, hard working Americans that own stock will start getting dividends instead of building up the price of the stock. It's the dividend, stupid -- oh, I didn't mean to call you stupid.

BEGALA: We will debate that, I think, more in the coming months, because it's an interesting idea. I disagree with it, but at least it's an idea.

While President Bush was at Fort Hood today talking about war abroad, my fellow Democrats were lining up to do battle on behalf of the U.S. economy here at home. We'll put all of that in the CROSSFIRE next. Stay with us.

And then, later, Congressman Charlie Rangel will step into the CROSSFIRE to explain why he wants to bring back the draft.

Then, the rematch you've all been waiting for. Boxing promoter Don King back for more rounds here in the CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Senate Democratic leader and possible presidential candidate Tom Daschle is pointing out that under President Bush's new tax plan, millionaires will get a $24,000 tax break while families making between 40,000 and 50,000 bucks a year get all of $76. Don't spend it all in one place.

Meanwhile, Congressman Dick Gephardt, my former boss from 14 years ago, the first time he ran for president, says he is ready to form a presidential exploratory committee of his own.

First in the CROSSFIRE tonight to debate the new politics of this new year, Democratic strategist Donna Brazile and Republican pollster Tony Fabrizio.

Happy new year.

NOVAK: Donna Brazile, there has been a certain lack of enthusiasm about Dick Gephardt after 14 years coming back to try again. One of your fellow Democratic leaders, the chairman of the South Carolina Democratic committee, Dick Harpootlian, said about Gephardt and Daschle, "I'm not sure about them. They're both good men. I'm not denigrating their integrity, but they just never could punch through and when they did, it sounded whiny. We've got to have some body who can stand tall."

Isn't that -- isn't that the trouble with these two guys, who just lost the 2002 election?

DONNA BRAZILE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, let me also say, like Paul, I'm also a veteran of the Gephardt campaign in 1988.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: Yes. Yes. Everybody worked for Dick Gephardt. We lost, and I think Dick Gephardt has done a fabulous job. He is a seasoned politician.

NOVAK: He is seasoned.

BRAZILE: Well-seasoned. Not Cajun style, but still Midwestern style. Little pepper every now and then.

I think Dick Gephardt will put together an incredible campaign. He already has Bill Caracas (ph) coming back and Tom O'Donnell (ph) and many other people. But the most important thing is that Dick understands the political landscape. He knows what it takes to win the Iowa caucuses and I think he will do a fabulous job.

NOVAK: One more -- one question just kind of following up on what Mr. Harpootlian said. Dick Gephardt is unusually -- unusual credentials. He is a five- time loser. Five-time loser. He lost for the presidential nomination. And then he lost the House of Representatives, which the Democrats used to win in their sleep four times. I mean, how many times do you go with this guy?

BRAZILE: Well, this may be the lucky year for Democrats in 2004.

(LAUGHTER)

BRAZILE: Look, it appears that we'll have 10 candidates running for the presidency this year. So, Paul, there are a lot of people you can talk about every week here on the show.

An Look, this past holiday season, while most Americans was out there shopping, do you know what Democrats were doing? We were looking at all the fresh new faces that are coming in and hearing all the...

NOVAK: Like Gephardt?

BRAZILE: Like Dean, Gephardt, Daschle, Lieberman. I mean, more to come. Wesley Clark. Al Sharpton, your favorite.

NOVAK: We'll talk about him later.

BEGALA: A few other things, Tony -- first, good to see you again. Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

TONY FABRIZIO, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: Good to see you again, Paul.

BEGALA: One of the things that I like about Gephardt is that he likes to fight on economic issues and he ain't scared of a good fight. He came on this broadcast to answer tough questions from our conservative hosts.

Let me play you a bit of what he said a couple of months ago on the economy here at CROSSFIRE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D), MISSOURI: If we had stuck with the economic program we were operating under during the Clinton administration, we would still have a surplus in place that we could use to pay down the back debt and then with the interest we'd save, we could put that over into the Social Security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: See, some people say, Well, he looks like too much of an Eagle Scout. But it seems to me, scout's honor, he's telling the truth. That's what you're worried about, isn't it?

FABRIZIO: I -- frankly, I'm not worrying about Dick Gephardt, Paul. I don't know that many in the Republican Party are. Before Dick Gephardt even gets to the point where he could hope to challenge George Bush, he's got to make it through nine other contenders, nine other contenders that -- that while he may be seasoned, others have advantages that he doesn't.

It's going to be a long process. Ten guys. Money's going to matter. You know that. You've played this game. And if you don't have to money to stick it out to the end -- and Dick Gephardt gave up being the minority leader, which was one way for him to raise significant money.

And you've got Daschle, who's still the minority leader. You got Edwards who has personal money. You have Kerry, who has personal money. That's going to be real tough.

BEGALA: This is one of the interesting problems. You're one. The money primary is a big one in the year before the presidential race.

FABRIZIO: Absolutely.

BEGALA: Another big one, though, is the ideas primary. That's the one I want to talk about more...

FABRIZIO: Sure.

BEGALA: ...on CROSSFIRE. We'll watch the money. You're right. We'll track that.

But he's put out a number -- let me put it up on the screen. A number of new ideas to try to revive this dormant economy. School construction, tax cuts for working people, cutting corporate welfare, banning corporate tax loopholes overseas, a budget summit to control spending, pension reform, increase in the minimum wage. This is a whole -- it's a whole bucket full of new ideas. This is what may party needs, right?

FABRIZIO: No question that he's put out ideas. He's been around a long time. He was a minority leader for a number of years.

The real question is how does he differentiate himself from his contenders? What is going to be the difference? Can you tell me a Democrat that's running or considering running that's going to be opposed to what's up there? This whole process is about differentiation. You know that. You have to make yourself different. And what the Democrats suffer from now is looking in the mirror, they're looking for their soul just like the Republicans were looking for their soul eight or nine years ago.

NOVAK: Donna Brazile...

FABRIZIO: You're now looking for their -- your soul now.

NOVAK: Donna Brazile, what I said earlier, that Dick Gephardt's going to get trumped by one day by Al Sharpton. He's going to file his papers a day early. Paul doesn't take him seriously. I take the Reverend Al very seriously. He's a fascinating guy. He's got full of -- talk about ideas. This is old stuff. He's got some wild ideas. And you got a lot of...

BRAZILE: He'll be coming to you for an apology. He'll be coming to you for a plan for reparations so he can retire early.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I've said a lot of things that he'll take me up on. But he -- he's going to get a lot of African-American votes in the south, which is going to hurt Edwards. It's going to hurt a guy like Bob Graham. Do you take Al Sharpton seriously?

BRAZILE: Well, I take all of the candidates seriously.

NOVAK: No, I'm asking, do you take Al Sharpton seriously?

BRAZILE: I take them all of them seriously, including Al Sharpton and let me just tell you why. I believe that Al Sharpton will have to prove himself to African-American voters the same way that other candidates will have to prove themselves.

He's been out there, but unlike Jesse Jackson who ran in 1984 who had an established base in the civil rights community, Al Sharpton does not have an established base outside of New York City. So it remains to be seen if Al Sharpton can pull together the South, the Midwest and other parts of the country.

But I do believe John Edwards intends to talk about issues that impact African-Americans. Joe Lieberman, who had a lot of support in the African American community in 2000, as well as John Kerry and Daschle.

NOVAK: But let me ask you this. There seems to be a deficit with Joe Lieberman, with Dick Gephardt, Tom Daschle. I call it a charisma deficit. They're real short on charisma. Al Sharpton's got a lot of charisma, doesn't he?

BRAZILE: Well, I haven't heard him preach.

NOVAK: You haven't?

BRAZILE: No, sir, I have not. I have not.

NOVAK: Why? Have you boycotted here?

BRAZILE: I'm Catholic.

(LAUGHTER)

BRAZILE: I still say "Hail Mary, full of grace" before a prayer. I haven't gotten to all the other preaching with Al Sharpton.

But, no, no, seriously. When it comes to the Democratic party, I think we found our soul. We found it out after the day after the election on November 5. Now we're trying to get our spirit back. Our legs. We did it in Louisiana. We proved that we can win with $20 million against us, running in the Deep South.

And I think it's important that the party begin to frame the issues and on Monday, I am proud to say, Bob, that you will find some part of that tax plan that the Democrats will put forward. I think you will be able to embrace some of the things that we're going to talk about next week...

NOVAK: I shall...

BRAZILE: ...targeted tax cuts...

NOVAK: I shall...

BRAZILE: ...for the middle class...

NOVAK: I sure hope so. I sure hope so.

BRAZILE: ....to help stimulate the economy.

NOVAK: I sure hope so, but I'm pessimistic.

BEGALA: Let me speak up for my friend Donna. She's too modest to say this. One of the reasons we won in Louisiana is we had a native of Kenner, Louisiana...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ...and helped her senator, Mary Landrieu. Donna Brazile is one of the big reasons we won that race.

One of the reasons also is that at the end of the race, Senator Landrieu, the Democrat, differentiated herself from President Bush.

President Bush now trying to get back ahead on the economy has leaked out that he's going to call for a big tax cut on dividends, one of Novak's favorite tax cuts.

FABRIZIO: Well, it was one of the pieces of the tax cut, Paul.

NOVAK: The most important!

BEGALA: According to "The Washington Post" today, the most important. I agree with Bob.

NOVAK: Absolutely.

BEGALA: Here's, though, what a Republican economist told "The Washington Post" about it today. Said it's just not going to work. Let me read to you from today's "Washington Post." "Even some Republicans raised questions about whether reducing dividend taxation would stimulate the economy. Kevin Hassett of the American Enterprise Institute said he favored a cut in dividend taxes, but he said that's a long term policy and not a stimulus."

So Bush is really just trying to use our current economic malaise to push through long-term policies to help the rich, but won't help the economy. Is that right?

FABRIZIO: No, I don't believe so. I think it's a combination of things, Paul. The Democrats are going to introduce a plan on Monday. Nancy Pelosi talked about it today. And that plan is going to have several planks to it. Some of it is going to be short term, as she called it, and some of it is going to be longer term. And I think that's what the Bush plan is going to be.

I think first of all, we've got to wait and see what the Bush plan is. I think one of the things that the Democrats kind of have to get over here is is that for the whole 2002 election or at least the last six months of it you tried to make it about the economy and you tried to tag George Bush with the economy. And you have to recognize that most Americans do not blame this president for the economy. When you ask them who they blame, they talk about a normal business cycle, they talk about the attacks from 9/11, and George Bush is third or fourth on that list.

BEGALA: Do you believe that Democrats who ran around saying, oh, I voted for Bush's economic plan, that's all those wussies and wimps and weasels who lost. Do you really think they were making it about the economy? Tony, come on, you were watching that election.

FABRIZIO: I was watching it very closely.

BEGALA: They ran around the country trying to pretend they were for Bush's plan. That's why they lost.

FABRIZIO: Who were the people that were saying for every 100 points the stock market goes down, we pick up another seat in the House? That wasn't us.

BEGALA: If you make your argument on the economy.

FABRIZIO: That wasn't us.

NOVAK: I want to show you what the problem is, and let's listen to the distinguished House minority leader, what she said just today. Today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: I think what you see is the administration perhaps using the term stimulus as a Trojan horse to wheel in some favorite tax breaks for the high-end that they're so fond of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Now, Nancy is a very nice, charming lady, but when she talks about the high-end, she's giving the same Marxist gobbledygook about taking money away from rich people. Now, this never works. Why do you keep going back to tax the rich, tax the rich? Why do you keep going back to something that never works?

BRAZILE: Because it's wrong, it's unfair and it's un-American. NOVAK: Karl Marx felt that way, too.

BRAZILE: And I am so glad to see that Nancy Pelosi is going to put her progressive stamp on the Democratic Party's agenda first thing on Monday when the party sits down and embraces a bold plan to get this economy going.

NOVAK: Do you realize the last Democrat from outside the south who got elected president was for across the board tax cuts, John F. Kennedy? Do you realize that?

BRAZILE: Oh, absolutely. My family voted for him.

NOVAK: And he didn't go for taxing the rich.

BRAZILE: Well, look, he went for targeted tax cuts for the middle class that would help stimulate the economy in the short term.

NOVAK: We're out of time, though. Donna Brazile, thank you very much. Tony Fabrizio, thank you.

BRAZILE: Thank you.

FABRIZIO: Always good, Bob. Paul, pleasure.

NOVAK: Coming up, streets filled with protesters, police and tear gas. Connie Chung shows us where next in a CNN "News Alert."

And then greetings from the president. Is it a time America's young people learn the value of mandatory military service?

Plus the world's most famous and infamous boxing promoter. Don King weighs in on the world of politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

NOVAK: The U.S. ended the draft and went to an all-volunteer military in the early 1970s, but recently Congressman Charlie Rangel got the attention of a lot of young slackers, went on CNN's "LATE EDITION." He proposed bringing back the draft and requiring mandatory military service for America's youth. Is he really interested in needling President Bush than in beefing up the military, or has he in the process stumbled onto a very good idea? Congressman Rangel joins us from our New York bureau. He won the Bronze Star and Purple Heart as a young Army officer in combat in the Korean War. And in Albuquerque is Republican Congresswoman Heather Wilson of New Mexico. She is an Air Force veteran, the first female veteran ever to serve in Congress.

Congressman Rangel, let me read a comment made by one of your colleagues, Congressman Nick Smith of Michigan, about -- Nick Smith has wanted a universal military training. He said this about you. Quote, "A member introducing legislation that they don't really support in order to play politics and embarrass the president is disingenuous," end quote. Is that what you're doing?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: I spoke with Nick this evening. I don't think we're too far apart, in terms of our objectives. And even though I fought in Korea, it was not as a young officer but as an enlisted person.

And what I'm saying right now is that it seems as though most people believe that whether we have allies or international support at the U.N., that the United States is prepared to take a preemptive strike against Iraq to liberate Iraq. The secretary of defense says very cavalierly that we can fight two wars at one time. And we've got American troops all over the world, 38,000 in North Korea. We are about to get involved in a war and perhaps a holy war, but we don't have the patriotism. We don't have the concept of shared sacrifice. There seems as though people are relying on the volunteer army to do it because, what, they volunteered.

My point is this, that for this great country to be in such a state that we believe our national security is jeopardized to the extent that we are going to start a war, it seems to me that everyone should be prepared to know that our families, our kids, our grandkids, have to put up for America.

BEGALA: Congresswoman Wilson, first let me thank you for joining us, as well. How many of your colleagues do have children on active duty in the military right now?

REP. HEATHER WILSON (R), NEW MEXICO: I don't know how many. Most of them are grandparents, rather than parents. My kids are still in elementary school. But my husband's in the Air Guard, and he got an e-mail today asking him if he wanted to go on a 180-day assignment to an unknown location. So I think there are certainly members of Congress who have -- and I think it's -- in a way, it's unfair to say that -- as you have, Charlie, in other places that these decisions are made because we don't have enough skin on the game or not every American is at risk because I think all of us know people or have friends or relatives or neighbors who would be at risk.

And it's a very, very serious decision that I think all of us who made that vote on Iraq, no matter which side of the debate you were on, no matter which way you voted, it's one of the most serious votes you can take. And I think it was an agonizing one for everybody because we do know people and have friends who will be affected.

RANGEL: Well, most of these kids that I'm talking...

NOVAK: Charlie Rangel, just to make sure -- go ahead, Charlie.

RANGEL: I'm talking about enlisted personnel. I'm not talking about Air Force personnel. I'm not talking about Navy personnel. I'm talking about the people that are going to end up doing the ground fighting. And for the most part, these are poor people -- white, black, Hispanics, rural areas, inner-city areas. And these are the ones that had limited economic opportunity. I'm saying this...

WILSON: Well, Charlie... RANGEL: Yes?

WILSON: Charlie, an all-volunteer force is main -- they're actually the middle class is more overrepresented in the volunteer army than lower class or upper class. We got -- it's a very highly trained force, more experienced. And the military has changed. We can't expect to put conscripts through a six-months -- six-week training course and give them a rifle and expect them to be able to do the job. The question is national security, and what do we need to do to make sure we keep and get the best possible military we can to defend our country.

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel...

WILSON: And it's hard to argue...

NOVAK: ... I just want to...

WILSON: ... with the all-volunteer force's success.

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, I just want to clean up one thing. I had thought you were an officer. You did leave the Army as an officer, did you not?

RANGEL: No, I did not.

NOVAK: You did not.

RANGEL: I left as a high school drop-out, took the G.I. Bill and never looked back.

NOVAK: OK, I was wrong on that. I'm sorry. Congressman...

RANGEL: No, it's OK.

NOVAK: Congressman, I want -- you're a straight shooter and you've always been a straight shooter. And I want to ask you, is this call for the draft, which is not popular -- we took a little poll in our audience, who would like to return to the draft, and not one person out there wanted to do it. Is this just your way of making it unpopular to go to war with Iraq, to show that if you had a draft, we maybe wouldn't go to war in Iraq or in the Middle East?

RANGEL: Well, you're right, but I wouldn't say if you had a draft. I'm saying that if we thought that our kids were going to be in harm's way. There's so many people that advocated supporting the president, going to war, stamping out these oil-holders (ph), wherever they are. But when you ask them, would they want their sons to be placed in harm's way or would they have their sons to volunteer to do it, they are just shocked.

I am saying there's no connect between who will be fighting the wars. People talk about how high-tech, the smart bombs, it's going to be won by the air, it's only going to take 30 days. I see a possible holy war taking place between Israel, Iran, Iraq. And this can't be just considered a 30-day war. You can't have wars and get in and out. We're calling up troops, a half a million reserve troops.

WILSON: Charlie...

RANGEL: I'm saying that -- I am advocating not going to war. But if we do have to go to war, that sacrifice should be shared more equitably than the standing volunteer army.

WILSON: Charlie, you know, I don't want my husband to go to war. I don't want my friends -- and I have a lot of friends who are still in the service to go to war. But I also know that if they're called, they will serve. And I try to make my decisions based on what the country needs and what's best for our national security, knowing that that decision has tremendous consequences for my friends, for my family and for my country.

RANGEL: Heather, we're not arguing. All I'm saying is that more people should stand to be called. You and I know that those people that belong to a more affluent groups, those wealthy people, their kids are not going to be volunteering to go to Iraq. They're not going -- and I'm just saying that...

WILSON: Charlie, they weren't under the draft, either. I mean, they -- most of the, you know, rich kids...

RANGEL: Well, under my legislation...

WILSON: ... went to college or got deferments.

RANGEL: ... they won't be able to go to college. Those who are unable to serve in the military would do some other type of public service, much like Nick Smith was talking about, working in our airports, our seaports, our hospitals, our schools, and make certain that they show how much they love the United States, how much they care for the United States by doing some kind of national service. But I am saying this. Not enough people will be called. And if this country thinks that it's that much of a threat to our national security, then we should be prepared to say that we are prepared to serve.

WILSON: Well, you know, Charlie...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I'm sorry to butt in here, but if I may...

WILSON: Sure.

BEGALA: Many commentators -- well, let me say a few people -- John McCain, a war hero himself, on this broadcast talked about how little is being asked of the American people in the way of sacrifice. John Kerry, a Democratic senator, another war hero, has made the same point. What are we -- those of us who are more blessed and privileged, those of us who did not volunteer for military service, we're not being asked a thing by this president in this war effort.

WILSON: In a way... BEGALA: We're going to get our big, fat tax cut. We don't have to send our kids off to war. I mean, why isn't there -- what is our president asking us to contribute or sacrifice?

WILSON: And Paul, that is one of the differences between our generation and the World War II generation. And part of it is the strength of this country is so much greater. You know, I remember -- I remember my mother talking about gas ration stamps and putting the car up on blocks. And in 1942, '43, '44 and '45, there wasn't one car produced in America because they shifted the production lines to aircraft. It took that huge national effort of all of those resources to prevail in that war.

That great generation came back and built such a strong America that a smaller percentage of our national effort is required, and so much less is asked from us. I agree with Charlie that I think more young Americans need to feel that sense of service and connection to community, but I don't think the draft is the answer to doing that because we can't show the need.

NOVAK: But they don't volunteer, Heather Wilson. Let me just ask you this question, if I might ask you this question. Don't you think that young people like Paul Begala and our executive producer, Sam Feiss (ph), who have never worn the uniform, have missed something in not serving their country in the military that people in my generation -- everybody had to serve when I was in college. Don't you think that they're losing something?

WILSON: I think he probably did lose out on an opportunity to serve in one of the greatest institutions in America. But I also think he should have that choice, as long as we can allow the all- volunteer force to work. And the -- I don't -- it's hard to argue with the success of the all-volunteer force. It really has raised -- you know, the volunteer force is more trained, more capable than -- and it demands it, 21st-Century combat demands it.

I know a lot of young people. I used to work with a lot of young people, including a lot of juvenile delinquents. I know a lot of juvenile judges who would like to have that option of, you know, Well, you're going to jail or you're going into the military. It changed a lot of young lives for the better. And I still encourage young people to go into the service, but I don't think they should be conscripted. And only 1 out of 10 ever served, anyway.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Charlie Rangel, let me throw a question to you. I'm sorry. It's hard to argue also with the leadership that we're seeing from Heather Wilson, there, a graduate -- a distinguished graduate of that, of the United States Air Force Academy, a former officer in the Air Force. Shouldn't women be drafted, as well? Will your legislation draft women, as well as men?

RANGEL: Yes, my legislation would exempt no one, even those that are going to college. But you know, in a time of war, it seems to me they should be a sense of patriotism. In World War II, of course, we were attacked, and therefore, people of all backgrounds were anxious to eliminate the enemy and threat to the United States. Now we are doing the attacking, and I don't see any sense of patriotism by those people who are willing to have themselves or their families placed in harm's way.

It doesn't surprise me that your audience would be against my proposal. It is not a popular proposal. But neither is a war a popular way to go. It would seem to me that we could be able to negotiate, that we would be able to work through the United Nations. But if the president believes, and the Congress supports him, that we are in danger, I say patriotism and shared sacrifice should be a priority. I don't see how anyone can say, Let someone else do it, and I'll get the benefit of it.

WILSON: Charlie...

BEGALA: Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York, Democrat, thank you very much for that. That will have to be the last word. Congresswoman Heather Wilson of New Mexico, thank you both for joining us, two outstanding military veterans, two outstanding members of Congress.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thank you for a great debate.

Still ahead: One of our viewers wants to know if Bob Novak has time to do a little work on stage. We'll find out about that in a minute.

But next: He's promoted some of the most memorable fights in history, but now he's at the center of a street fight in Atlantic City. Don King will be in the CROSSFIRE when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the friendly confines of George Washington University, here in lovely downtown Washington, D.C. And it's time for the main event. I love that sound! Another presidential race is under way. A number of my fellow Democrats are promoting themselves as possible successors to the current champion, President Bush. Maybe they could take a few lessons from the ultimate promoter. Stepping into our corner and the CROSSFIRE, the chairman and founder of Don King Productions, the inimitable Don King.

(APPLAUSE)

DON KING, FOUNDER AND CHAIRMAN, DON KING PRODUCTIONS: Paul, how are you? Novak, how are you, sir? What a country, huh?

NOVAK: Mr. King, we're going to start with some gripping hot news about the attempt to change the name of Mississippi Avenue in Atlantic City to Don King Boulevard. A lot of people don't like it.

Now, one of your admirers, Sam Donnellon of the "Philadelphia Daily News," he's a columnist -- do you know Mr. Donnellon? Well, let me read to you what he said about you in today's paper. He said, "What better place to honor a man who has fleeced so many naive and trusting boxers of their hard-earned money than a city that has built and rebuilt tall buildings by doing the same to its many customers? What better place to honor a man known far more for his nonsense than substance than a place that looks far prettier at night than it does in the day? So let's build Don King Boulevard in Atlantic City."

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Do you have any response to that, sir?

KING: That is what makes America so great. The opportunity, the privilege that you have in this country is far beyond anything and anywhere else in the world. And to have a difference of opinion, to have that freedom of speech -- I mean, everyone should have the right to be able to speak, as long as they don't encroach, you know, on you and take anything from you. So that's his opinion. Listen, I respect that.

NOVAK: Does that mean a lot to you, to get that street named for you there?

KING: Yes, I think it's quite an honor. I didn't ask for it, but since they did decide to do it, I think it's something that's worthwhile, and I think it really humbles me that they would even choose to select to name a street after me. But I am a true Americana, you know, the living attestation to the American dream, you know, not the proud boy that was a Horatio Alger that could marry the boss's daughter. There's no boss's daughter here. You have to come in here and deal with life as it is in this great nation called America. God bless America.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, I join you in that salute, Mr. King, but I got to ask you -- not -- I love the -- I love the outfit, but I got to ask you about these buttons. I'm counting six -- one, two, three, four, five different Bush buttons there now. Are you a Bush Republican?

KING: I am a Bush Republican because I think that Bush is a dynamic leader. He is decisive.

BEGALA: You do?

KING: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

(APPLAUSE)

KING: He's a guy -- you must understand something about America. He rose to the occasion. When he won the election, it was not by the electorate, it was by the court. But then he said, I promise you one thing. He said, I will earn the respect of the American people. He said, And I will appoint people around me that they can give me their opinion. I will make the decision, but at least I'm going to have it and not going to be where they got to be yes men. That he has done. He got one of the greatest, tightest teams in history, you know, with Karl Rove and Andy Card. And they are really playing very meticulously, tenaciously, and they patiently carried out a plan that swept the nation. So now the man is making decisions.

Then comes that terrible, despicable act of terrorism on 9/11. The man rose to the occasion. He didn't know it was going to happen, but since it did happen, he rose. And every American should thank God that they do have a man in the White House that makes decisions that everyone respects. Niccolo Machiavelli said it's better to be feared than to be loved. But if you could have both, great. I think Bush has them both because when he speaks, they listen. That means friend and foe. They have to understand when George W. Bush says something, he means it. You better listen to what he says. So that gives us the respect to hold us in what we're going to do.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You know, Mr. King, you, I think, are known as what we in politics call a switch-hitter. And that's a good thing in baseball. It's not so good in politics. That means you give to both sides. You were a big Bill Clinton man, too, aren't you?

KING: Yes, because what Bill Clinton is...

(APPLAUSE)

KING: I'm an American man, you know what I mean? I'm a Republicrat. I want to do whatever it is going to be good for my people, the American people. That's what really counts. It's what's best for this country. And when you're dealing with what's best for this country, neither color, race, religion or creed has got to be played in the foreground of that. You got to deal with what's going to be better for the country itself. That means every race, color, creed and religion inclusively.

NOVAK: Could it be you're for whoever is in the White House? Is that...

(LAUGHTER)

KING: You know, I can say this. You ain't going to do too much unless you have access to power. If you have no access to power, you can't help the loser, if you ain't got the winner.

BEGALA: There you go. Those who come early get good access. Those who come late get good government, right?

KING: But you got to be able to work with it. There's a thing about this country, you know, one land, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We got to work toward that. But at least we have a profound direction, one land, indivisible, under God with liberty and justice for all. Now we got to make that come true, you know what I mean? That's the premise of our great nation called America.

BEGALA: How much damage did Trent Lott's comments about segregation do to Republicans who are African-American and to the cause of Republicans reaching out to the African-American community?

KING: On the contrary, I think his remarks were great. I'm going to tell you why. Because he focused on something that would have been a closet segregationist. I think the tragedy is of the action, where you can vote for 23 years in leadership capacity, be a segregationist and no, you know -- what we call in the ghetto, laugh in your face when all the time they want to take (UNINTELLIGIBLE) backstabber. When you do that, you know what I mean, all people are losers.

I think that what -- God touched Trent Lott. I think that he touched him, and he said -- he said something that he shouldn't have said, but it was what was the truth. Now we have discussion and debate all over the nation and around the world about an ugly, egregious form of racism and that has been existed throughout our country's history.

So now how do we change that? You got to be able to change that by working together -- perfect endeavor -- and to be able to exchange ideas and respect one another not because of the color of your skin but for the content of your heart and character.

NOVAK: Mr. King, I got a political test question for you, so be ready because it really tells you where you're really coming from because I haven't any idea right now.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Well, that's good. At least you're honest, you know what I mean? I always liked that about you. You have always been steadfast and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

NOVAK: Do you think the American people pay too much in taxes? And particularly, do you think people who are successful -- and you're successful -- are overtaxed in America?

KING: No. I think that taxes is necessary. What you must understand, first of all...

NOVAK: You like this level of taxes we have now?

KING: I don't know what the level of taxes are. All I know is I gave a press relief when I paid $33 million worth of taxes in one year. I was so happy and so proud that -- you know, to be able to pay the taxes that I gave out a release that I did.

NOVAK: Would you pay some of my taxes?

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Novak pays a lot more than that.

NOVAK: Would you -- would you...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Would you like to pay some of my taxes, too?

KING: You know, it really -- I'm going to tell you something. You know, you can't have the goods and the services and the security and the protection if you don't pay the taxes.

NOVAK: You just flunked the test.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: You passed the more important test of patriotism over partisanship, and I salute you for that. Now I'll ask you about a particular partisan concern. Every night, my friend Novak and others promote the candidacy, potential candidacy of the Reverend Al Sharpton from New York City. He's a minister there. Reverend Jesse Jackson was asked about Al Sharpton. He brought your name up in an interview one year ago this week in "New York" magazine. Jack Newfield, legendary journalist, talked about this. This is what Newfield wrote. "The Reverend Jesse Jackson asked me why I hadn't exposed Don King's financial support of Sharpton's organization and urged me to probe Sharpton's ties to Republicans and his endorsement of Al D'Amato in 1986."

As a Republican, and presumably, a supporter and friend of Al Sharpton's, is that a legitimate issue for Jesse Jackson to be raising?

KING: I don't know why Jesse would raise any issue, but I support all Americans. You know, what really -- what's so great about this nation is that you must understand something. The mere fact that a Reverend Sharpton can be on a ballot, that's a plus for this country. You got to understand something. Whether you look at it with -- you know, with dismay or you feel that...

NOVAK: I like Sharpton. I like Sharpton.

KING: Well, regardless. The fact of them -- you know, the least of them can be in the "USA Today," and they have all the candidates there, and there's Al Sharpton, I think that's a marvelous tribute.

BEGALA: Now, are you for -- are you for Sharpton, though?

KING: I'm for Sharpton. I'm for America, you know what I mean? I don't mean he's going to win. I'm for America.

NOVAK: I got to get a boxing question in.

KING: Yes, you must. You must. We've got a boxing event tomorrow at the D.C. Armory. I'd like for you to come down and see how it really is for the pugilists to, you know, get blows.

NOVAK: I've been following the sweet science all my life. Don't we need a charismatic, terrific heavyweight in the boxing right now? Isn't the sport badly in need of a real heavyweight champion?

KING: They're lacking that. But I have a guy, the emperor of boxing, who was Lennox Lewis. They just happened to promote him right. But he is a terrific fighter. He's a tremendous, tremendous fighter, but he doesn't catch the magic of the public, the creation of the excitement, like...

NOVAK: Like an Ali or...

KING: Yes, like an Ali or George foreman or those kind of guys. George Foreman was remarkable, you know what I mean? But the idea of it is, we got to keep working. And they are fighting now in a series, which I call a hard road to glory, you know. And this is a process of champions fighting each other.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Oh, that's going to be a super fight coming up on March 1 in Las Vegas, and I welcome all of you CROSSFIRE fans to be there because...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ... go out and do CROSSFIRE from Las Vegas?

KING: Yes, we want -- we're going to -- I want you there. I want you there...

BEGALA: There we go!

KING: ... for the whole week. It's going to be super, man, and I think that when you have people that -- listen, Al Campanus -- you know, he makes the -- them type of goofars (ph) helps America because it brings out of the darkness into the light where the medicinal qualities of this great nation can help to cure that disease called racism.

NOVAK: That's the last word, Don King. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

KING: God bless!

BEGALA: Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ... tomorrow night. Chop-Chop Curley (ph) and Randall Bailey (ph), March 1, Roy Jones (ph) and John Ruiz (ph). Only in America!

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Next on "Fireback," one of our viewers has a comment about our interview last night with the guy who wants to be known as the father of cloning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Nobody left in the ring but Novak and me. That's why we turn to you, our "Fireback" segment. Let's start with an e-mail. David Genther, Grand Rapids, Michigan, writes, "Paul, my wife bought me your book, `It's Still the Economy, Stupid,' for Christmas. I've been reading it gleefully, one chapter at a time, and really, really enjoying it." Thank you, David. That's awfully nice. He's enjoying it more than Novak, I bet.

NOVAK: I always thought your readers read it one word at a time, you know, mouthing the words.

OK. Greg Brown of Sisters, Oregon, said, "Listening to Rael on CROSSFIRE, I think I heard him say Clinton really was good for the military, aliens caused Democrats to lose the 2002 elections, and Al Sharpton will win the Democratic nomination in spite of the DNC." That's right, Greg. And he also told me off camera that he thought Paul Begala would be elected to Congress before too long.

BEGALA: No, none of that's -- Rael, for those of us who missed last night's show, will be on Connie Chung's show tonight. He's the guy who claims he met with space aliens in the 1970s and claims he cloned a baby last week. We'll see what he's got up his sleeve for Connie. I can't wait to see that.

William Lang in Denver, Colorado, though, writes about another segment we did last night, where Mr. Novak was criticizing the success of John Edwards, a wealthy trial lawyer. "Only Bob Novak and the Republicans would have the audacity to criticize John Edwards for being as rich as a Republican." Well, there you have it, Bob.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: It's not -- it's not how much money you make, it's how you made it. So that's the question.

Gina Hayes of San Antonio says, "Hey, Bob. I caught a bit of the movie `Dave'" -- I'm a star in that movie -- "and I may say you did a great acting job. I wish I would have known you can act because our local community theater put on a stage production of `It's a Wonderful Life,' and you would have been a perfect Mr. Potter."

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Now, Gina, let me tell you something. I'll give you a little scoop. There's going to be a movie revival of "It's a Wonderful Life"...

BEGALA: Really?

NOVAK: ... and I'm the angel.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Oh! Clarence, the angel!

NOVAK: Oh, I... BEGALA: If you have not seen "Dave," you should go out and rent "Dave." I think it's the best -- honestly, best political movie I ever saw. And Novak is in it, and he is great.

NOVAK: All right.

BEGALA: It's a terrific movie.

NOVAK: Question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Jonathan Sclarsic (ph) from Massachusetts.

NOVAK: What town?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sudbury. All the Democrats running for the president seem to be New Democrats or centrist Democrats. Who's going to be the one to take a position as a liberal to win the nomination?

NOVAK: Well, you're from Massachusetts, so you should be excused. But if you think John Kerry is a centrist, you've got dementia, baby!

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Well, the truth is, John Kerry is very much of a centrist. And I think Howard Dean, actually, will pick up the liberal, the governor of Vermont. But it'll be a good field, and I think we should let them all sort it out themselves.

Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Greg Bentley (ph), Unionville, Pennsylvania. My question is, how telling is it for the Democrats and "The Washington Post" to be faulting the president's expected tax plan for being based on long-term thinking? There's never been a better time for long-term thinking. And how could anything else better differentiate our president from his critics?

NOVAK: Well, you are -- you're a very intelligent man. We get very few of them around here. And I congratulate you because what Paul doesn't understand is that people who invest think of the long term. They think what the consequences are going to be 10 years out from now.

BEGALA: No, the problem is truth in advertising. The president says it's a stimulus package to create jobs right now. It's not. It's a way to reward his wealthy friends years down the road. He should be honest about it and say, Look, I owe these guys a lot of money. I have to pay them back with my tax policy.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Congress Reinstate Military Draft?; Interview With Don King>


Aired January 3, 2003 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: Look who else wants to be commander-in-chief, but the current one may be too busy to notice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're acting now to protect the American people and to shape a future of peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: In that case, should the U.S. bring back the draft?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: I'm talking about mandatory service.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a congressman who says yes. But he isn't war mongering.

And, will his next round be a political one? Don King talks boxing, politics and maybe having a street named after him. Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE, where it's another day and another presidential wannabe among the Democrats. We'll also ask Congressman Charlie Rangel if he really and truly wants to bring back the draft.

And in our main event, we'll go another round with boxing legend Don King. So let's climb through the ropes and start things off with the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."

Congressman Dick Gephardt of Missouri launched his second try for the Democratic presidential nomination -- sort of, that is. Typical of Gephardt's political career, he zigged when he should have zagged. He was supposed to announce a presidential exploratory committee at a fund-raiser January 22, but all surprise was killed when a young aide prematurely faxed invitations to offices all over Washington, including CNN's. And then Gephardt learned that the Reverend Al Sharpton will get there a day ahead, filing his papers for an exploratory committee January 21. The Reverend Al, who has never held public office, said today he was more qualified than any other Democrat. I tend to agree.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Wishful thinking. You know, as you know, but the audience should know, I worked for Dick Gephardt the last time he ran for president 14 years ago. I think without me he has got a much better chance. So he has been on CROSSFIRE before. I suspect he will be back to defend his (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NOVAK: You think he's too decent a guy to be a Democratic nominee?

BEGALA: He's too decent a guy to come on CROSSFIRE, but does it anyway, and that's all I care about.

Trent Lott may no longer be Senate Republican leader, but his consolation prize ain't bad either. The Missouri (sic) Republican told the Associated Press today he'll take over the Senate Rules and Administration Committee, bumping aside Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania. We shall see, as Senator Lott uses his new position to advance his newfound support for affirmative action and other programs to help African-Americans get a fair shot at the American dream, or if his Republican colleagues believe that the friendlier face of Tennessee heart surgeon Bill Frist as their leader can distract voters from their true positions on issues.

I think it's going to take a lot more than cosmetic changes to persuade African-American that Republicans have changed. Katherine Harris and Tammy Faye Bakker combined don't have enough makeup to cover up that record.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, when Trent Lott apologized, you accepted the apology here because you wanted to keep him as majority leader to keep pounding him. And now that he's out, you're hitting him again. I knew that what you do is you try to use that issue to try to hurt Republicans. And by the way, Santorum was not bounced aside. He could have kept the position. He did it voluntarily.

BEGALA: Of course, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) said set him aside. Second, you don't have any idea why I accepted Trent Lott's apology. I don't like you saying what my motives were, Bob Novak.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: And I didn't attack Lott tonight. I simply stated that he said he's now for affirmative action. I want to hold him to that pledge.

NOVAK: The new house Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California said today, the Democrats will unveil their own economic stimulus package Monday. Just by coincidence one day before President Bush is scheduled to release his.

Now, Congresswoman Pelosi would not give a hint of what she will propose, and as usual she spent most of her time bashing what she thinks the president will say. Yes, she was attacking tax cuts for the rich, what she called "the high end." Democratic leaders come and go, but their Marxist message is monotonous. Let's redistribute income. If you think it might work politically, ask George McGovern, Fritz Mondale, Mike Dukakis and then Fritz Mondale again this year.

BEGALA: Well, why don't you ask Bill Clinton, who actually had a tax program that helped working people. Asked rich people to pay a little more to pay off the deficit. Everybody got richer. Poor people and rich people. I mean, I know that must have broken your heart to see poor people get rich.

NOVAK: I didn't get richer. I didn't get richer.

BEGALA: Oh, you got so much richer, Bob. You did very well under Clinton. But you always do because you work hard.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer yesterday repeated one of President Bush's favorite lines, suggesting that the Bush recession started under President Clinton. There's only one problem with that story. It's false, fictional, it is fabricated. In short, it's a fib. Martin Feldstein was the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Ronald Reagan. He advised Mr. Bush on his tax cut. He is no liberal, yet his organization, the National Bureau of Economic Research, reports that the recession began in March of 2001, the third month of George W. Bush's presidency.

Of course, he would know that if Mr. Bush had read the best selling book "It's Still the Economy, Stupid." George Bush inherited the largest, strongest economic boom in history and he squandered it. Kind of surprising to me, since I always figured if Bush would be good at anything, it would be at inheriting things.

NOVAK: You know, the truth of the matter, Paul is that the Commerce Department under our good friend, Undersecretary Rob Shapiro, your friend and mine, they cooked the books. They just -- that's why these economists get mixed up, because they didn't tell how bad the economy was going.

But I want to ask you about a little figure. You referred to your best selling book. I checked on Amazon.com and it ranks nationally number 2,624. Is Amazon.com wrong?

BEGALA: Well, no, that's just on Amazon. It sold -- "The Washington Post" made the best seller list, made the best seller list of "Dallas Morning News." If everybody who dislikes Bob Novak and disagrees with him buys it, it will be number one in every best seller list.

NOVAK: OK. Who was that unusually distinguished and somehow familiar looking linesman at the Orange Bowl football game in Miami last night? Wasn't he talking about favors of the FBI the last time we saw him on television? He was one of the Senate's most distinguished Democrats, Senator Bob Graham of Florida, who is thinking of running for president. Working at the Orange Bowl marked his 386th workday, where he pretends to be a working Joe. Coincidentally, this workday came on national TV, in a game played by the University of Iowa and witnessed by millions of residents of a state, Iowa, where the first Democratic caucuses will be held. Way to go, Bob Graham.

BEGALA: Good for you, though. It was a pretty good game. It was a bit of a blow-out, but I think Bob Graham, if he gets in this race, will really bring another dimension. He has great expertise on intelligence matters, on national security matters. I think President Bush is worried about him getting in.

NOVAK: I think John Edwards is worried about him, too.

BEGALA: I think they are.

Well, the Bush administration today announced it will no longer issue the government's monthly report on mass layoffs. Not because there haven't been any. In fact, the last report on Christmas Eve showed that U.S. corporations laid off more than 240,000 workers in 2,150 different mass layoffs.

Congressional Democrats are committed to picking up the slack. They've produced a new chart measuring job creation in the Bush administration and comparing it with Mr. Bush's predecessors -- 69,000 Americans have lost their jobs every month since George W. Bush took office. That's 1.5 million in all. By contrast, the economy generated more than 235,000 jobs per months under President Clinton, and 224,000 jobs per month in the second Reagan term.

Mr. Bush's answer? Hide the facts, deny benefits for the unemployed, but cut the dividend tax for wealthy investors. After all, if you can't cover things up, help the rich and screw working people, why be a Republican?

NOVAK: Let me tell you the way it's going to work, Paul. I know you don't understand the economy very well. But if you will end the double taxation of dividends, good, hard working Americans that own stock will start getting dividends instead of building up the price of the stock. It's the dividend, stupid -- oh, I didn't mean to call you stupid.

BEGALA: We will debate that, I think, more in the coming months, because it's an interesting idea. I disagree with it, but at least it's an idea.

While President Bush was at Fort Hood today talking about war abroad, my fellow Democrats were lining up to do battle on behalf of the U.S. economy here at home. We'll put all of that in the CROSSFIRE next. Stay with us.

And then, later, Congressman Charlie Rangel will step into the CROSSFIRE to explain why he wants to bring back the draft.

Then, the rematch you've all been waiting for. Boxing promoter Don King back for more rounds here in the CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Senate Democratic leader and possible presidential candidate Tom Daschle is pointing out that under President Bush's new tax plan, millionaires will get a $24,000 tax break while families making between 40,000 and 50,000 bucks a year get all of $76. Don't spend it all in one place.

Meanwhile, Congressman Dick Gephardt, my former boss from 14 years ago, the first time he ran for president, says he is ready to form a presidential exploratory committee of his own.

First in the CROSSFIRE tonight to debate the new politics of this new year, Democratic strategist Donna Brazile and Republican pollster Tony Fabrizio.

Happy new year.

NOVAK: Donna Brazile, there has been a certain lack of enthusiasm about Dick Gephardt after 14 years coming back to try again. One of your fellow Democratic leaders, the chairman of the South Carolina Democratic committee, Dick Harpootlian, said about Gephardt and Daschle, "I'm not sure about them. They're both good men. I'm not denigrating their integrity, but they just never could punch through and when they did, it sounded whiny. We've got to have some body who can stand tall."

Isn't that -- isn't that the trouble with these two guys, who just lost the 2002 election?

DONNA BRAZILE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, let me also say, like Paul, I'm also a veteran of the Gephardt campaign in 1988.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: Yes. Yes. Everybody worked for Dick Gephardt. We lost, and I think Dick Gephardt has done a fabulous job. He is a seasoned politician.

NOVAK: He is seasoned.

BRAZILE: Well-seasoned. Not Cajun style, but still Midwestern style. Little pepper every now and then.

I think Dick Gephardt will put together an incredible campaign. He already has Bill Caracas (ph) coming back and Tom O'Donnell (ph) and many other people. But the most important thing is that Dick understands the political landscape. He knows what it takes to win the Iowa caucuses and I think he will do a fabulous job.

NOVAK: One more -- one question just kind of following up on what Mr. Harpootlian said. Dick Gephardt is unusually -- unusual credentials. He is a five- time loser. Five-time loser. He lost for the presidential nomination. And then he lost the House of Representatives, which the Democrats used to win in their sleep four times. I mean, how many times do you go with this guy?

BRAZILE: Well, this may be the lucky year for Democrats in 2004.

(LAUGHTER)

BRAZILE: Look, it appears that we'll have 10 candidates running for the presidency this year. So, Paul, there are a lot of people you can talk about every week here on the show.

An Look, this past holiday season, while most Americans was out there shopping, do you know what Democrats were doing? We were looking at all the fresh new faces that are coming in and hearing all the...

NOVAK: Like Gephardt?

BRAZILE: Like Dean, Gephardt, Daschle, Lieberman. I mean, more to come. Wesley Clark. Al Sharpton, your favorite.

NOVAK: We'll talk about him later.

BEGALA: A few other things, Tony -- first, good to see you again. Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

TONY FABRIZIO, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: Good to see you again, Paul.

BEGALA: One of the things that I like about Gephardt is that he likes to fight on economic issues and he ain't scared of a good fight. He came on this broadcast to answer tough questions from our conservative hosts.

Let me play you a bit of what he said a couple of months ago on the economy here at CROSSFIRE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D), MISSOURI: If we had stuck with the economic program we were operating under during the Clinton administration, we would still have a surplus in place that we could use to pay down the back debt and then with the interest we'd save, we could put that over into the Social Security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: See, some people say, Well, he looks like too much of an Eagle Scout. But it seems to me, scout's honor, he's telling the truth. That's what you're worried about, isn't it?

FABRIZIO: I -- frankly, I'm not worrying about Dick Gephardt, Paul. I don't know that many in the Republican Party are. Before Dick Gephardt even gets to the point where he could hope to challenge George Bush, he's got to make it through nine other contenders, nine other contenders that -- that while he may be seasoned, others have advantages that he doesn't.

It's going to be a long process. Ten guys. Money's going to matter. You know that. You've played this game. And if you don't have to money to stick it out to the end -- and Dick Gephardt gave up being the minority leader, which was one way for him to raise significant money.

And you've got Daschle, who's still the minority leader. You got Edwards who has personal money. You have Kerry, who has personal money. That's going to be real tough.

BEGALA: This is one of the interesting problems. You're one. The money primary is a big one in the year before the presidential race.

FABRIZIO: Absolutely.

BEGALA: Another big one, though, is the ideas primary. That's the one I want to talk about more...

FABRIZIO: Sure.

BEGALA: ...on CROSSFIRE. We'll watch the money. You're right. We'll track that.

But he's put out a number -- let me put it up on the screen. A number of new ideas to try to revive this dormant economy. School construction, tax cuts for working people, cutting corporate welfare, banning corporate tax loopholes overseas, a budget summit to control spending, pension reform, increase in the minimum wage. This is a whole -- it's a whole bucket full of new ideas. This is what may party needs, right?

FABRIZIO: No question that he's put out ideas. He's been around a long time. He was a minority leader for a number of years.

The real question is how does he differentiate himself from his contenders? What is going to be the difference? Can you tell me a Democrat that's running or considering running that's going to be opposed to what's up there? This whole process is about differentiation. You know that. You have to make yourself different. And what the Democrats suffer from now is looking in the mirror, they're looking for their soul just like the Republicans were looking for their soul eight or nine years ago.

NOVAK: Donna Brazile...

FABRIZIO: You're now looking for their -- your soul now.

NOVAK: Donna Brazile, what I said earlier, that Dick Gephardt's going to get trumped by one day by Al Sharpton. He's going to file his papers a day early. Paul doesn't take him seriously. I take the Reverend Al very seriously. He's a fascinating guy. He's got full of -- talk about ideas. This is old stuff. He's got some wild ideas. And you got a lot of...

BRAZILE: He'll be coming to you for an apology. He'll be coming to you for a plan for reparations so he can retire early.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I've said a lot of things that he'll take me up on. But he -- he's going to get a lot of African-American votes in the south, which is going to hurt Edwards. It's going to hurt a guy like Bob Graham. Do you take Al Sharpton seriously?

BRAZILE: Well, I take all of the candidates seriously.

NOVAK: No, I'm asking, do you take Al Sharpton seriously?

BRAZILE: I take them all of them seriously, including Al Sharpton and let me just tell you why. I believe that Al Sharpton will have to prove himself to African-American voters the same way that other candidates will have to prove themselves.

He's been out there, but unlike Jesse Jackson who ran in 1984 who had an established base in the civil rights community, Al Sharpton does not have an established base outside of New York City. So it remains to be seen if Al Sharpton can pull together the South, the Midwest and other parts of the country.

But I do believe John Edwards intends to talk about issues that impact African-Americans. Joe Lieberman, who had a lot of support in the African American community in 2000, as well as John Kerry and Daschle.

NOVAK: But let me ask you this. There seems to be a deficit with Joe Lieberman, with Dick Gephardt, Tom Daschle. I call it a charisma deficit. They're real short on charisma. Al Sharpton's got a lot of charisma, doesn't he?

BRAZILE: Well, I haven't heard him preach.

NOVAK: You haven't?

BRAZILE: No, sir, I have not. I have not.

NOVAK: Why? Have you boycotted here?

BRAZILE: I'm Catholic.

(LAUGHTER)

BRAZILE: I still say "Hail Mary, full of grace" before a prayer. I haven't gotten to all the other preaching with Al Sharpton.

But, no, no, seriously. When it comes to the Democratic party, I think we found our soul. We found it out after the day after the election on November 5. Now we're trying to get our spirit back. Our legs. We did it in Louisiana. We proved that we can win with $20 million against us, running in the Deep South.

And I think it's important that the party begin to frame the issues and on Monday, I am proud to say, Bob, that you will find some part of that tax plan that the Democrats will put forward. I think you will be able to embrace some of the things that we're going to talk about next week...

NOVAK: I shall...

BRAZILE: ...targeted tax cuts...

NOVAK: I shall...

BRAZILE: ...for the middle class...

NOVAK: I sure hope so. I sure hope so.

BRAZILE: ....to help stimulate the economy.

NOVAK: I sure hope so, but I'm pessimistic.

BEGALA: Let me speak up for my friend Donna. She's too modest to say this. One of the reasons we won in Louisiana is we had a native of Kenner, Louisiana...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ...and helped her senator, Mary Landrieu. Donna Brazile is one of the big reasons we won that race.

One of the reasons also is that at the end of the race, Senator Landrieu, the Democrat, differentiated herself from President Bush.

President Bush now trying to get back ahead on the economy has leaked out that he's going to call for a big tax cut on dividends, one of Novak's favorite tax cuts.

FABRIZIO: Well, it was one of the pieces of the tax cut, Paul.

NOVAK: The most important!

BEGALA: According to "The Washington Post" today, the most important. I agree with Bob.

NOVAK: Absolutely.

BEGALA: Here's, though, what a Republican economist told "The Washington Post" about it today. Said it's just not going to work. Let me read to you from today's "Washington Post." "Even some Republicans raised questions about whether reducing dividend taxation would stimulate the economy. Kevin Hassett of the American Enterprise Institute said he favored a cut in dividend taxes, but he said that's a long term policy and not a stimulus."

So Bush is really just trying to use our current economic malaise to push through long-term policies to help the rich, but won't help the economy. Is that right?

FABRIZIO: No, I don't believe so. I think it's a combination of things, Paul. The Democrats are going to introduce a plan on Monday. Nancy Pelosi talked about it today. And that plan is going to have several planks to it. Some of it is going to be short term, as she called it, and some of it is going to be longer term. And I think that's what the Bush plan is going to be.

I think first of all, we've got to wait and see what the Bush plan is. I think one of the things that the Democrats kind of have to get over here is is that for the whole 2002 election or at least the last six months of it you tried to make it about the economy and you tried to tag George Bush with the economy. And you have to recognize that most Americans do not blame this president for the economy. When you ask them who they blame, they talk about a normal business cycle, they talk about the attacks from 9/11, and George Bush is third or fourth on that list.

BEGALA: Do you believe that Democrats who ran around saying, oh, I voted for Bush's economic plan, that's all those wussies and wimps and weasels who lost. Do you really think they were making it about the economy? Tony, come on, you were watching that election.

FABRIZIO: I was watching it very closely.

BEGALA: They ran around the country trying to pretend they were for Bush's plan. That's why they lost.

FABRIZIO: Who were the people that were saying for every 100 points the stock market goes down, we pick up another seat in the House? That wasn't us.

BEGALA: If you make your argument on the economy.

FABRIZIO: That wasn't us.

NOVAK: I want to show you what the problem is, and let's listen to the distinguished House minority leader, what she said just today. Today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: I think what you see is the administration perhaps using the term stimulus as a Trojan horse to wheel in some favorite tax breaks for the high-end that they're so fond of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Now, Nancy is a very nice, charming lady, but when she talks about the high-end, she's giving the same Marxist gobbledygook about taking money away from rich people. Now, this never works. Why do you keep going back to tax the rich, tax the rich? Why do you keep going back to something that never works?

BRAZILE: Because it's wrong, it's unfair and it's un-American. NOVAK: Karl Marx felt that way, too.

BRAZILE: And I am so glad to see that Nancy Pelosi is going to put her progressive stamp on the Democratic Party's agenda first thing on Monday when the party sits down and embraces a bold plan to get this economy going.

NOVAK: Do you realize the last Democrat from outside the south who got elected president was for across the board tax cuts, John F. Kennedy? Do you realize that?

BRAZILE: Oh, absolutely. My family voted for him.

NOVAK: And he didn't go for taxing the rich.

BRAZILE: Well, look, he went for targeted tax cuts for the middle class that would help stimulate the economy in the short term.

NOVAK: We're out of time, though. Donna Brazile, thank you very much. Tony Fabrizio, thank you.

BRAZILE: Thank you.

FABRIZIO: Always good, Bob. Paul, pleasure.

NOVAK: Coming up, streets filled with protesters, police and tear gas. Connie Chung shows us where next in a CNN "News Alert."

And then greetings from the president. Is it a time America's young people learn the value of mandatory military service?

Plus the world's most famous and infamous boxing promoter. Don King weighs in on the world of politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

NOVAK: The U.S. ended the draft and went to an all-volunteer military in the early 1970s, but recently Congressman Charlie Rangel got the attention of a lot of young slackers, went on CNN's "LATE EDITION." He proposed bringing back the draft and requiring mandatory military service for America's youth. Is he really interested in needling President Bush than in beefing up the military, or has he in the process stumbled onto a very good idea? Congressman Rangel joins us from our New York bureau. He won the Bronze Star and Purple Heart as a young Army officer in combat in the Korean War. And in Albuquerque is Republican Congresswoman Heather Wilson of New Mexico. She is an Air Force veteran, the first female veteran ever to serve in Congress.

Congressman Rangel, let me read a comment made by one of your colleagues, Congressman Nick Smith of Michigan, about -- Nick Smith has wanted a universal military training. He said this about you. Quote, "A member introducing legislation that they don't really support in order to play politics and embarrass the president is disingenuous," end quote. Is that what you're doing?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: I spoke with Nick this evening. I don't think we're too far apart, in terms of our objectives. And even though I fought in Korea, it was not as a young officer but as an enlisted person.

And what I'm saying right now is that it seems as though most people believe that whether we have allies or international support at the U.N., that the United States is prepared to take a preemptive strike against Iraq to liberate Iraq. The secretary of defense says very cavalierly that we can fight two wars at one time. And we've got American troops all over the world, 38,000 in North Korea. We are about to get involved in a war and perhaps a holy war, but we don't have the patriotism. We don't have the concept of shared sacrifice. There seems as though people are relying on the volunteer army to do it because, what, they volunteered.

My point is this, that for this great country to be in such a state that we believe our national security is jeopardized to the extent that we are going to start a war, it seems to me that everyone should be prepared to know that our families, our kids, our grandkids, have to put up for America.

BEGALA: Congresswoman Wilson, first let me thank you for joining us, as well. How many of your colleagues do have children on active duty in the military right now?

REP. HEATHER WILSON (R), NEW MEXICO: I don't know how many. Most of them are grandparents, rather than parents. My kids are still in elementary school. But my husband's in the Air Guard, and he got an e-mail today asking him if he wanted to go on a 180-day assignment to an unknown location. So I think there are certainly members of Congress who have -- and I think it's -- in a way, it's unfair to say that -- as you have, Charlie, in other places that these decisions are made because we don't have enough skin on the game or not every American is at risk because I think all of us know people or have friends or relatives or neighbors who would be at risk.

And it's a very, very serious decision that I think all of us who made that vote on Iraq, no matter which side of the debate you were on, no matter which way you voted, it's one of the most serious votes you can take. And I think it was an agonizing one for everybody because we do know people and have friends who will be affected.

RANGEL: Well, most of these kids that I'm talking...

NOVAK: Charlie Rangel, just to make sure -- go ahead, Charlie.

RANGEL: I'm talking about enlisted personnel. I'm not talking about Air Force personnel. I'm not talking about Navy personnel. I'm talking about the people that are going to end up doing the ground fighting. And for the most part, these are poor people -- white, black, Hispanics, rural areas, inner-city areas. And these are the ones that had limited economic opportunity. I'm saying this...

WILSON: Well, Charlie... RANGEL: Yes?

WILSON: Charlie, an all-volunteer force is main -- they're actually the middle class is more overrepresented in the volunteer army than lower class or upper class. We got -- it's a very highly trained force, more experienced. And the military has changed. We can't expect to put conscripts through a six-months -- six-week training course and give them a rifle and expect them to be able to do the job. The question is national security, and what do we need to do to make sure we keep and get the best possible military we can to defend our country.

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel...

WILSON: And it's hard to argue...

NOVAK: ... I just want to...

WILSON: ... with the all-volunteer force's success.

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, I just want to clean up one thing. I had thought you were an officer. You did leave the Army as an officer, did you not?

RANGEL: No, I did not.

NOVAK: You did not.

RANGEL: I left as a high school drop-out, took the G.I. Bill and never looked back.

NOVAK: OK, I was wrong on that. I'm sorry. Congressman...

RANGEL: No, it's OK.

NOVAK: Congressman, I want -- you're a straight shooter and you've always been a straight shooter. And I want to ask you, is this call for the draft, which is not popular -- we took a little poll in our audience, who would like to return to the draft, and not one person out there wanted to do it. Is this just your way of making it unpopular to go to war with Iraq, to show that if you had a draft, we maybe wouldn't go to war in Iraq or in the Middle East?

RANGEL: Well, you're right, but I wouldn't say if you had a draft. I'm saying that if we thought that our kids were going to be in harm's way. There's so many people that advocated supporting the president, going to war, stamping out these oil-holders (ph), wherever they are. But when you ask them, would they want their sons to be placed in harm's way or would they have their sons to volunteer to do it, they are just shocked.

I am saying there's no connect between who will be fighting the wars. People talk about how high-tech, the smart bombs, it's going to be won by the air, it's only going to take 30 days. I see a possible holy war taking place between Israel, Iran, Iraq. And this can't be just considered a 30-day war. You can't have wars and get in and out. We're calling up troops, a half a million reserve troops.

WILSON: Charlie...

RANGEL: I'm saying that -- I am advocating not going to war. But if we do have to go to war, that sacrifice should be shared more equitably than the standing volunteer army.

WILSON: Charlie, you know, I don't want my husband to go to war. I don't want my friends -- and I have a lot of friends who are still in the service to go to war. But I also know that if they're called, they will serve. And I try to make my decisions based on what the country needs and what's best for our national security, knowing that that decision has tremendous consequences for my friends, for my family and for my country.

RANGEL: Heather, we're not arguing. All I'm saying is that more people should stand to be called. You and I know that those people that belong to a more affluent groups, those wealthy people, their kids are not going to be volunteering to go to Iraq. They're not going -- and I'm just saying that...

WILSON: Charlie, they weren't under the draft, either. I mean, they -- most of the, you know, rich kids...

RANGEL: Well, under my legislation...

WILSON: ... went to college or got deferments.

RANGEL: ... they won't be able to go to college. Those who are unable to serve in the military would do some other type of public service, much like Nick Smith was talking about, working in our airports, our seaports, our hospitals, our schools, and make certain that they show how much they love the United States, how much they care for the United States by doing some kind of national service. But I am saying this. Not enough people will be called. And if this country thinks that it's that much of a threat to our national security, then we should be prepared to say that we are prepared to serve.

WILSON: Well, you know, Charlie...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I'm sorry to butt in here, but if I may...

WILSON: Sure.

BEGALA: Many commentators -- well, let me say a few people -- John McCain, a war hero himself, on this broadcast talked about how little is being asked of the American people in the way of sacrifice. John Kerry, a Democratic senator, another war hero, has made the same point. What are we -- those of us who are more blessed and privileged, those of us who did not volunteer for military service, we're not being asked a thing by this president in this war effort.

WILSON: In a way... BEGALA: We're going to get our big, fat tax cut. We don't have to send our kids off to war. I mean, why isn't there -- what is our president asking us to contribute or sacrifice?

WILSON: And Paul, that is one of the differences between our generation and the World War II generation. And part of it is the strength of this country is so much greater. You know, I remember -- I remember my mother talking about gas ration stamps and putting the car up on blocks. And in 1942, '43, '44 and '45, there wasn't one car produced in America because they shifted the production lines to aircraft. It took that huge national effort of all of those resources to prevail in that war.

That great generation came back and built such a strong America that a smaller percentage of our national effort is required, and so much less is asked from us. I agree with Charlie that I think more young Americans need to feel that sense of service and connection to community, but I don't think the draft is the answer to doing that because we can't show the need.

NOVAK: But they don't volunteer, Heather Wilson. Let me just ask you this question, if I might ask you this question. Don't you think that young people like Paul Begala and our executive producer, Sam Feiss (ph), who have never worn the uniform, have missed something in not serving their country in the military that people in my generation -- everybody had to serve when I was in college. Don't you think that they're losing something?

WILSON: I think he probably did lose out on an opportunity to serve in one of the greatest institutions in America. But I also think he should have that choice, as long as we can allow the all- volunteer force to work. And the -- I don't -- it's hard to argue with the success of the all-volunteer force. It really has raised -- you know, the volunteer force is more trained, more capable than -- and it demands it, 21st-Century combat demands it.

I know a lot of young people. I used to work with a lot of young people, including a lot of juvenile delinquents. I know a lot of juvenile judges who would like to have that option of, you know, Well, you're going to jail or you're going into the military. It changed a lot of young lives for the better. And I still encourage young people to go into the service, but I don't think they should be conscripted. And only 1 out of 10 ever served, anyway.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Charlie Rangel, let me throw a question to you. I'm sorry. It's hard to argue also with the leadership that we're seeing from Heather Wilson, there, a graduate -- a distinguished graduate of that, of the United States Air Force Academy, a former officer in the Air Force. Shouldn't women be drafted, as well? Will your legislation draft women, as well as men?

RANGEL: Yes, my legislation would exempt no one, even those that are going to college. But you know, in a time of war, it seems to me they should be a sense of patriotism. In World War II, of course, we were attacked, and therefore, people of all backgrounds were anxious to eliminate the enemy and threat to the United States. Now we are doing the attacking, and I don't see any sense of patriotism by those people who are willing to have themselves or their families placed in harm's way.

It doesn't surprise me that your audience would be against my proposal. It is not a popular proposal. But neither is a war a popular way to go. It would seem to me that we could be able to negotiate, that we would be able to work through the United Nations. But if the president believes, and the Congress supports him, that we are in danger, I say patriotism and shared sacrifice should be a priority. I don't see how anyone can say, Let someone else do it, and I'll get the benefit of it.

WILSON: Charlie...

BEGALA: Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York, Democrat, thank you very much for that. That will have to be the last word. Congresswoman Heather Wilson of New Mexico, thank you both for joining us, two outstanding military veterans, two outstanding members of Congress.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thank you for a great debate.

Still ahead: One of our viewers wants to know if Bob Novak has time to do a little work on stage. We'll find out about that in a minute.

But next: He's promoted some of the most memorable fights in history, but now he's at the center of a street fight in Atlantic City. Don King will be in the CROSSFIRE when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the friendly confines of George Washington University, here in lovely downtown Washington, D.C. And it's time for the main event. I love that sound! Another presidential race is under way. A number of my fellow Democrats are promoting themselves as possible successors to the current champion, President Bush. Maybe they could take a few lessons from the ultimate promoter. Stepping into our corner and the CROSSFIRE, the chairman and founder of Don King Productions, the inimitable Don King.

(APPLAUSE)

DON KING, FOUNDER AND CHAIRMAN, DON KING PRODUCTIONS: Paul, how are you? Novak, how are you, sir? What a country, huh?

NOVAK: Mr. King, we're going to start with some gripping hot news about the attempt to change the name of Mississippi Avenue in Atlantic City to Don King Boulevard. A lot of people don't like it.

Now, one of your admirers, Sam Donnellon of the "Philadelphia Daily News," he's a columnist -- do you know Mr. Donnellon? Well, let me read to you what he said about you in today's paper. He said, "What better place to honor a man who has fleeced so many naive and trusting boxers of their hard-earned money than a city that has built and rebuilt tall buildings by doing the same to its many customers? What better place to honor a man known far more for his nonsense than substance than a place that looks far prettier at night than it does in the day? So let's build Don King Boulevard in Atlantic City."

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Do you have any response to that, sir?

KING: That is what makes America so great. The opportunity, the privilege that you have in this country is far beyond anything and anywhere else in the world. And to have a difference of opinion, to have that freedom of speech -- I mean, everyone should have the right to be able to speak, as long as they don't encroach, you know, on you and take anything from you. So that's his opinion. Listen, I respect that.

NOVAK: Does that mean a lot to you, to get that street named for you there?

KING: Yes, I think it's quite an honor. I didn't ask for it, but since they did decide to do it, I think it's something that's worthwhile, and I think it really humbles me that they would even choose to select to name a street after me. But I am a true Americana, you know, the living attestation to the American dream, you know, not the proud boy that was a Horatio Alger that could marry the boss's daughter. There's no boss's daughter here. You have to come in here and deal with life as it is in this great nation called America. God bless America.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, I join you in that salute, Mr. King, but I got to ask you -- not -- I love the -- I love the outfit, but I got to ask you about these buttons. I'm counting six -- one, two, three, four, five different Bush buttons there now. Are you a Bush Republican?

KING: I am a Bush Republican because I think that Bush is a dynamic leader. He is decisive.

BEGALA: You do?

KING: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

(APPLAUSE)

KING: He's a guy -- you must understand something about America. He rose to the occasion. When he won the election, it was not by the electorate, it was by the court. But then he said, I promise you one thing. He said, I will earn the respect of the American people. He said, And I will appoint people around me that they can give me their opinion. I will make the decision, but at least I'm going to have it and not going to be where they got to be yes men. That he has done. He got one of the greatest, tightest teams in history, you know, with Karl Rove and Andy Card. And they are really playing very meticulously, tenaciously, and they patiently carried out a plan that swept the nation. So now the man is making decisions.

Then comes that terrible, despicable act of terrorism on 9/11. The man rose to the occasion. He didn't know it was going to happen, but since it did happen, he rose. And every American should thank God that they do have a man in the White House that makes decisions that everyone respects. Niccolo Machiavelli said it's better to be feared than to be loved. But if you could have both, great. I think Bush has them both because when he speaks, they listen. That means friend and foe. They have to understand when George W. Bush says something, he means it. You better listen to what he says. So that gives us the respect to hold us in what we're going to do.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You know, Mr. King, you, I think, are known as what we in politics call a switch-hitter. And that's a good thing in baseball. It's not so good in politics. That means you give to both sides. You were a big Bill Clinton man, too, aren't you?

KING: Yes, because what Bill Clinton is...

(APPLAUSE)

KING: I'm an American man, you know what I mean? I'm a Republicrat. I want to do whatever it is going to be good for my people, the American people. That's what really counts. It's what's best for this country. And when you're dealing with what's best for this country, neither color, race, religion or creed has got to be played in the foreground of that. You got to deal with what's going to be better for the country itself. That means every race, color, creed and religion inclusively.

NOVAK: Could it be you're for whoever is in the White House? Is that...

(LAUGHTER)

KING: You know, I can say this. You ain't going to do too much unless you have access to power. If you have no access to power, you can't help the loser, if you ain't got the winner.

BEGALA: There you go. Those who come early get good access. Those who come late get good government, right?

KING: But you got to be able to work with it. There's a thing about this country, you know, one land, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We got to work toward that. But at least we have a profound direction, one land, indivisible, under God with liberty and justice for all. Now we got to make that come true, you know what I mean? That's the premise of our great nation called America.

BEGALA: How much damage did Trent Lott's comments about segregation do to Republicans who are African-American and to the cause of Republicans reaching out to the African-American community?

KING: On the contrary, I think his remarks were great. I'm going to tell you why. Because he focused on something that would have been a closet segregationist. I think the tragedy is of the action, where you can vote for 23 years in leadership capacity, be a segregationist and no, you know -- what we call in the ghetto, laugh in your face when all the time they want to take (UNINTELLIGIBLE) backstabber. When you do that, you know what I mean, all people are losers.

I think that what -- God touched Trent Lott. I think that he touched him, and he said -- he said something that he shouldn't have said, but it was what was the truth. Now we have discussion and debate all over the nation and around the world about an ugly, egregious form of racism and that has been existed throughout our country's history.

So now how do we change that? You got to be able to change that by working together -- perfect endeavor -- and to be able to exchange ideas and respect one another not because of the color of your skin but for the content of your heart and character.

NOVAK: Mr. King, I got a political test question for you, so be ready because it really tells you where you're really coming from because I haven't any idea right now.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Well, that's good. At least you're honest, you know what I mean? I always liked that about you. You have always been steadfast and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

NOVAK: Do you think the American people pay too much in taxes? And particularly, do you think people who are successful -- and you're successful -- are overtaxed in America?

KING: No. I think that taxes is necessary. What you must understand, first of all...

NOVAK: You like this level of taxes we have now?

KING: I don't know what the level of taxes are. All I know is I gave a press relief when I paid $33 million worth of taxes in one year. I was so happy and so proud that -- you know, to be able to pay the taxes that I gave out a release that I did.

NOVAK: Would you pay some of my taxes?

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Novak pays a lot more than that.

NOVAK: Would you -- would you...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Would you like to pay some of my taxes, too?

KING: You know, it really -- I'm going to tell you something. You know, you can't have the goods and the services and the security and the protection if you don't pay the taxes.

NOVAK: You just flunked the test.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: You passed the more important test of patriotism over partisanship, and I salute you for that. Now I'll ask you about a particular partisan concern. Every night, my friend Novak and others promote the candidacy, potential candidacy of the Reverend Al Sharpton from New York City. He's a minister there. Reverend Jesse Jackson was asked about Al Sharpton. He brought your name up in an interview one year ago this week in "New York" magazine. Jack Newfield, legendary journalist, talked about this. This is what Newfield wrote. "The Reverend Jesse Jackson asked me why I hadn't exposed Don King's financial support of Sharpton's organization and urged me to probe Sharpton's ties to Republicans and his endorsement of Al D'Amato in 1986."

As a Republican, and presumably, a supporter and friend of Al Sharpton's, is that a legitimate issue for Jesse Jackson to be raising?

KING: I don't know why Jesse would raise any issue, but I support all Americans. You know, what really -- what's so great about this nation is that you must understand something. The mere fact that a Reverend Sharpton can be on a ballot, that's a plus for this country. You got to understand something. Whether you look at it with -- you know, with dismay or you feel that...

NOVAK: I like Sharpton. I like Sharpton.

KING: Well, regardless. The fact of them -- you know, the least of them can be in the "USA Today," and they have all the candidates there, and there's Al Sharpton, I think that's a marvelous tribute.

BEGALA: Now, are you for -- are you for Sharpton, though?

KING: I'm for Sharpton. I'm for America, you know what I mean? I don't mean he's going to win. I'm for America.

NOVAK: I got to get a boxing question in.

KING: Yes, you must. You must. We've got a boxing event tomorrow at the D.C. Armory. I'd like for you to come down and see how it really is for the pugilists to, you know, get blows.

NOVAK: I've been following the sweet science all my life. Don't we need a charismatic, terrific heavyweight in the boxing right now? Isn't the sport badly in need of a real heavyweight champion?

KING: They're lacking that. But I have a guy, the emperor of boxing, who was Lennox Lewis. They just happened to promote him right. But he is a terrific fighter. He's a tremendous, tremendous fighter, but he doesn't catch the magic of the public, the creation of the excitement, like...

NOVAK: Like an Ali or...

KING: Yes, like an Ali or George foreman or those kind of guys. George Foreman was remarkable, you know what I mean? But the idea of it is, we got to keep working. And they are fighting now in a series, which I call a hard road to glory, you know. And this is a process of champions fighting each other.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Oh, that's going to be a super fight coming up on March 1 in Las Vegas, and I welcome all of you CROSSFIRE fans to be there because...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ... go out and do CROSSFIRE from Las Vegas?

KING: Yes, we want -- we're going to -- I want you there. I want you there...

BEGALA: There we go!

KING: ... for the whole week. It's going to be super, man, and I think that when you have people that -- listen, Al Campanus -- you know, he makes the -- them type of goofars (ph) helps America because it brings out of the darkness into the light where the medicinal qualities of this great nation can help to cure that disease called racism.

NOVAK: That's the last word, Don King. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

KING: God bless!

BEGALA: Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ... tomorrow night. Chop-Chop Curley (ph) and Randall Bailey (ph), March 1, Roy Jones (ph) and John Ruiz (ph). Only in America!

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Next on "Fireback," one of our viewers has a comment about our interview last night with the guy who wants to be known as the father of cloning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Nobody left in the ring but Novak and me. That's why we turn to you, our "Fireback" segment. Let's start with an e-mail. David Genther, Grand Rapids, Michigan, writes, "Paul, my wife bought me your book, `It's Still the Economy, Stupid,' for Christmas. I've been reading it gleefully, one chapter at a time, and really, really enjoying it." Thank you, David. That's awfully nice. He's enjoying it more than Novak, I bet.

NOVAK: I always thought your readers read it one word at a time, you know, mouthing the words.

OK. Greg Brown of Sisters, Oregon, said, "Listening to Rael on CROSSFIRE, I think I heard him say Clinton really was good for the military, aliens caused Democrats to lose the 2002 elections, and Al Sharpton will win the Democratic nomination in spite of the DNC." That's right, Greg. And he also told me off camera that he thought Paul Begala would be elected to Congress before too long.

BEGALA: No, none of that's -- Rael, for those of us who missed last night's show, will be on Connie Chung's show tonight. He's the guy who claims he met with space aliens in the 1970s and claims he cloned a baby last week. We'll see what he's got up his sleeve for Connie. I can't wait to see that.

William Lang in Denver, Colorado, though, writes about another segment we did last night, where Mr. Novak was criticizing the success of John Edwards, a wealthy trial lawyer. "Only Bob Novak and the Republicans would have the audacity to criticize John Edwards for being as rich as a Republican." Well, there you have it, Bob.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: It's not -- it's not how much money you make, it's how you made it. So that's the question.

Gina Hayes of San Antonio says, "Hey, Bob. I caught a bit of the movie `Dave'" -- I'm a star in that movie -- "and I may say you did a great acting job. I wish I would have known you can act because our local community theater put on a stage production of `It's a Wonderful Life,' and you would have been a perfect Mr. Potter."

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Now, Gina, let me tell you something. I'll give you a little scoop. There's going to be a movie revival of "It's a Wonderful Life"...

BEGALA: Really?

NOVAK: ... and I'm the angel.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Oh! Clarence, the angel!

NOVAK: Oh, I... BEGALA: If you have not seen "Dave," you should go out and rent "Dave." I think it's the best -- honestly, best political movie I ever saw. And Novak is in it, and he is great.

NOVAK: All right.

BEGALA: It's a terrific movie.

NOVAK: Question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Jonathan Sclarsic (ph) from Massachusetts.

NOVAK: What town?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sudbury. All the Democrats running for the president seem to be New Democrats or centrist Democrats. Who's going to be the one to take a position as a liberal to win the nomination?

NOVAK: Well, you're from Massachusetts, so you should be excused. But if you think John Kerry is a centrist, you've got dementia, baby!

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Well, the truth is, John Kerry is very much of a centrist. And I think Howard Dean, actually, will pick up the liberal, the governor of Vermont. But it'll be a good field, and I think we should let them all sort it out themselves.

Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Greg Bentley (ph), Unionville, Pennsylvania. My question is, how telling is it for the Democrats and "The Washington Post" to be faulting the president's expected tax plan for being based on long-term thinking? There's never been a better time for long-term thinking. And how could anything else better differentiate our president from his critics?

NOVAK: Well, you are -- you're a very intelligent man. We get very few of them around here. And I congratulate you because what Paul doesn't understand is that people who invest think of the long term. They think what the consequences are going to be 10 years out from now.

BEGALA: No, the problem is truth in advertising. The president says it's a stimulus package to create jobs right now. It's not. It's a way to reward his wealthy friends years down the road. He should be honest about it and say, Look, I owe these guys a lot of money. I have to pay them back with my tax policy.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Congress Reinstate Military Draft?; Interview With Don King>