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CNN Crossfire

If it Comes to War, What Friends Can the U.S. Count on?

Aired January 23, 2003 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.
On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.

On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, the clock ticks down on weapons inspections.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: But so far it has treated disarmament like a game of hide and seek.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: If it comes to war, what friends can the U.S. count on?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think we'll have to worry about going it alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Putting God in government, from federal dollars for church programs to a judicial bias for the Ten Commandments. But not quite to an AIDS Commission nominee who talks about the "gay plague."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECY.: That remark is far removed from the what the president believes and for what the president stands for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, the battle for the right to take on the president in 2004.

Tonight, on CROSSFIRE.

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

ROBERT NOVAK, CNN CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, the Bush administration tips its hand about what Iraqi President Saddam Hussein is really up to and starts finding out who its allies really are.

Also, the left wing's never ending crusade to muscle people who sound too religious. Forget about freedom of speech.

That's a freedom we intend to exercise right now with the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."

With a report from U.N. weapons inspectors four days away, the Bush administration has launched a counteroffensive for support in a war against Iraq.

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz gave a saber rattling speech accusing Saddam Hussein of ordering the execution of Iraqi scientists who cooperate with the U.N. inspectors.

Secretary of State Colin Powell publicly hinted the U.S. may not ask the U.N. Security Council to authorize force. But he suggested the U.S. won't have to go it alone.

Meanwhile, Democratic Senator John Kerry labeled the Bush administration's approach as "blustering unilateralism." Instead, Kerry called for a "bold, progressive internationalism." That's a presidential hopeful trying to be anti-Hussein and anti-Bush at the very same time.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN CO-HOST: And I think he pulled it off quite well. It seems to me our president needs to not simply tell us that Saddam Hussein is an evil, evil man. We know that. He better persuade us why we need to go to war right now, right there. And he hasn't done it yet.

Well, White House political guru Karl Rove, today -- or yesterday, declared his boss, President Bush, to be a Populist. Mr. Rove claims that our president's call for an end to the taxation of dividends is aimed at the little guy. Of course, the Tax Policy Center reports that nearly all -- 70 percent in fact -- of the benefits of Mr. Bush's tax cut would go to the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans.

Now George W. Bush started out, for those of you scoring at home, as a compassionate conservative. He then reinvented himself as a different kind of Republican. After that, remember the reformer with results. And then of course he was a steely wartime leader. And now, a Populist.

This guy has had more makeovers than Madonna.

Perhaps, next, Mr. Bush, will insist that he's actually the seven foot tall center for the L.A. Lakers and demand that everyone call him President Shaq Daddy.

That's...

NOVAK: You know you're...

BEGALA: ... about as likely.

NOVAK: ... trying to do a Jerry Leno and you're not nearly as funny as Jerry Leno, not even in the same -- Jay Leno...

(LAUGHTER)

... you're not even in the same category. I don't watch him that much, but I read his reports.

You know, the Treasury says that of the top 5 percent in income, they now pay 72.4 percent of the taxes. Under Bush, they would pay 73.3 percent. So they actually pay more. It's a tax increase.

Senator Bob Graham of Florida, who has been looking at a run for the Democratic presidential nomination, had announcement today. But not the one his supporters were hoping for.

He called reports into his Capitol Hill office to reveal that at age 66, he will undergo heart surgery the week of February 3. That week, he said, was when he planned to announce his candidacy for president.

Such an announcement is now postponed indefinitely, pending Senator Graham's physical condition.

Is it an omen that the most grown-up Democratic candidate may not have the heart to run?

BEGALA: I'll tell you what, he is an enormously bright guy. Everybody wishes him the best. And he's now only four heart surgeries behind Dick Cheney.

(LAUGHTER)

So we wish you well, Senator Graham.

(APPLAUSE)

We love you, and we hope you will recover quickly. We know you will.

(APPLAUSE)

Now normal people of course have a word for those who believe that AIDS is a gay plague. We call them bigots. We also have a word for people who think that being gay is some sort of a spiritual failing that can be cured by prayer. We call them crackpots.

The Bush administration, however, wanted to call a man who hopes (ph) both of these views something else. Mr. Bush wanted to call him a member of the President's Advisory Commission on HIV and AIDS. Jerry Thacker, a graduate and former employee of Bob Jones University, was under consideration to sit on the prestigious presidential panel that advises our president on AIDS policy.

Now Mr. Thacker withdrew his name from consideration this afternoon during the controversy over his comments. The White House then went into full damage control mode. Of course, even the Bushes couldn't find a way to blame this one on Bill Clinton. So instead, the president, through his spokesman, blamed his own Cabinet, presumably the secretary of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson.

Apparently, the buck stops there under the Bush administration. But perhaps Mr. Bush was actually -- decided to settle on Thacker when he was told my his staff that all of the original Three Stooges are dead.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, I had thought recently that you had gotten over this attempt to end every "Political News Alert" with an attack on our president. But apparently you haven't. This audience didn't even applaud you, this Democratic audience. And I've sick of it, and I'm sure a lot of the viewers are sick of it as well.

BEGALA: Ha. You know what, you had better take some medicine because I ain't going to stop.

NOVAK : Jerry Springer, who hosts one of the sleaziest of all sleazy television programs, says he might run for the U.S. Senate from Ohio as a -- guess what -- Democrat.

He is a former mayor of Cincinnati, who once ran for governor. But he left politics to go down hill. He became a television news anchor. And then started the nationally syndicated "Jerry Springer Show," where the principles strip down to their underwear.

That has made Jerry a multi-millionaire. I think his candidacy is a good idea. Springer's opponent would be Republican Senator George Voinovich, a former governor and a distinguished statesman, but maybe a little stodgy.

What better contrast that to run a swinging Democrat against him?

BEGALA: OK, let's have the first debate right here on CROSSFIRE. Jerry Springer has been on. Let's have Senator Voinovich on, and we'll host the debate right here on CROSSFIRE.

I'd love to see it.

Well, our friend and CNN colleague, Al Hunt, who also writes at the "Wall Street Journal," notes today that affirmative action is practiced at our military academies, which give African American and Hispanic candidates for admission an average of 60 to 100 extra points on their SAT scores.

General Dan Christman, the former superintendent of West Point tells Mr. Hunt -- quote --"We're training our cadets for an Army that operates around the world in a very diverse environment with a huge mixture of cultural, religious and ethnic balances. It is very important that our young officers appreciate the diversity in our own society, and the environment that he or she will be operating in overseas."

No word yet on whether President Bush will end affirmative action at the service academies. We do know of course he benefited from affirmative action, the kind for the hard drinking, non-studying, under-achieving, unqualified children of the Eastern moneyed elite.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Paul, only you and Al Hunt do not understand that the United States Army, which has a lot of diversity in enlisted men need a diverse officer corps. That does not justify discriminating against people applying for graduate school at the University of Michigan, which is against the Constitution.

BEGALA: Well, we'll see. We'll let the Supreme Court decide.

Will the Bush administration go it alone in Iraq, or at least with very little help?

Former National Security Adviser Richard Allen will step into the CROSSFIRE to debate it next.

Later we will catch up with the 2004 presidential race, which believe it or not, is already going at full speed.

And then, the Reverend Jerry Falwell, we'll ask him his views about that potential Bush administration nominee that I mentioned a moment ago, the guy who called AIDS a gay plague.

Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: The politics of a possible war with Iraq have certainly created some strange international bedfellows. France and Germany are working together to delay a U.S. attack.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld dismisses that effort as old Europe. And Secretary of State Colin Powell says the U.S. has other friends and won't go it alone if it comes to war.

But on the home front, recent U.S. polls show support slipping for a war in Iraq. Is the president's policy in trouble?

First, in the CROSSFIRE tonight, is former National Security Adviser, Richard V. Allen.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Mr. Allen.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you for coming, sir.

RICHARD ALLEN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Thanks for having me.

BEGALA: Thank you.

Mr. Allen, Mr. Novak a moment ago mentions some public opinion polling suggests that popular support for the war is not as strong -- potential war in Iraq, not as strong as it was some months ago.

One of the things my friends who work for President Bush say is, "Well, we haven't made our case."

ALLEN: You have friends that work for Bush?

BEGALA: I have a lot of them. I'm from Texas. They're all my pals. They're lovely people. We just disagree on policy.

ALLEN: Oh, I see.

BEGALA: And they say, "Well, we haven't made our case yet. Wait for the State of the Union; we'll make our case."

So I actually had my assistant, Josh Cowan (ph), go on the White House Web site -- actually go to Nexus and look up how many times the president has spoken on Iraq. Let me put it up on the board. One hundred and thirty five speeches our president has give in which he's at least referred to Iraq and that's contrasted with only 106 where he ever talked about poverty, only 58 when he talked about unemployment. Only 47 when he talked about Osama bin Laden.

The president has made his case. We just ain't buying it, isn't that right?

ALLEN: You might not be buying, but I think a lot of America is buying it.

The president should be speaking that many time. You can contrast it to poverty is you want. It's not an ideological argument.

Probably the most important thing that's ever happened to us in modern times any way and certainly in your lifetime, not in mine, is 9-11.

And...

BEGALA: Again, three times more speeches about Iraq than bin Laden and he still hasn't persuaded enough Americans I should think to support his position.

ALLEN: That's probably true. I don't do those statistics, and Josh did them for you, and I'm glad he did. But the point that I'd like to make is that the president should be talking about Iraq.

I happen to agree with him. I view Iraq as a centerpiece in the war on terrorism. And why should he talk about Osama bin Laden. We don't know where he is. Maybe he's alive; probably is alive. It's been conceded that he likely is alive.

But what does it matter? The president defined early on a long- term war on terrorism. In the days after 9-11 it was very clear what he said.

Yes.

NOVAK: Mr. Allen, there's something that as you watch what's going on in the administration, we all know there's been disagreements in the administration. And something has happened in the last couple of weeks. You're a great administration watcher. And I want you to interpret it.

I want you to listen to what the secretary of state, Colin Powell, said today. And let's listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POWELL: They are in material breach now. They have been in the past. They have a chance to fix the situation by disarming themselves. It's very clear what they had to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: He's talking about Iraq of course. And the secretary of state was considered as somebody who was very reticent.

Now has he said, "OK, I have lost this battle and war hawks, led by our friend Dick Cheney, are in charge?"

Is that -- how do you interpret that?

ALLEN: Well, that's a very interest observation. I mean, you're an astute administration watcher, and you too has noticed that something has changed. And it seems that the secretary of state is more fully convincing in his presentation of a case that is more completely in line with the administration's view.

The president sets the tone. It's the president's foreign policy, not Colin Powell's. And I think the president has recently, in recent weeks, said very emphatically to his people, "We are going to sing from one sheet of music."

That's the only way the administration should actually develop its policies and implement those policies.

Now it doesn't hold across the board. You can come right back to me and say, "Well, there's a perhaps a difference on North Korea," an area that you know a lot about, and I spent a lot of time looking at.

You don't have to have consistency. This great national interest that we are now engaged in, the pursuit of our national interest, is exceptionally important. And I hope that everyone continues to sing from that same sheet of music. Certainly the secretary of defense does. And certainly Rich Armitage does, the deputy secretary of defense. Certainly John Bolton does.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about somebody who does, who is in the opposition party, one of the leaders of mu party, the Democratic Party. John Kerry gave a speech today. He's of course a decorated combat hero from the Vietnam conflict.

Senator Kerry reminded us that then Governor Bush as a candidate promised us an exit strategy before he ever sent us into another conflict, a gloss on the old Weinberger doctrine, later Powell doctrine.

Here's what Senator Kerry said today. Want you to take a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: The Bush administration has a plan for waging war, but no plan for wining the peace. It has invested mightily in the tools of destruction, but meagerly in the tools of peaceful construction.

It offers the peoples in the greater Middle East retribution and war, but little hope for liberty and prosperity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: What is our plan for wining the peace?

ALLEN: Wow, that's pretty strong stuff.

BEGALA: Yes, sir.

ALLEN: It's oriented toward 2004, I believe probably the months of November more than anything else.

BEGALA: It's an enormously important point, though.

ALLEN: Well, I don't know that to be the case. As a matter of fact, my information is that we've done more planning not only for the conduct of this war, but for the post-war scenario should war be necessary. And we will wage it -- and if we wage it, we'll win it -- to provide for reconstruction.

The Iraqi people can themselves make an enormous contribution. They're very clever and very dedicated people.

NOVAK: We're out of time, but I desperately need you to clarify something. Don Rumsfeld, this week, said that there were other countries who are anxious, anxious to join us in this war. Who is hie talking about? It's certainly not Britain where their Labor Party is knocking the hell out of Prime Minister Blair. ALLEN: Well, it certainly wouldn't be our great allies, the French would it, or the Germans, who owe us slightly for something in the past century. And it doesn't seem to be the Korean in Korea.

But I'm sure that he has a list and he's probably...

NOVAK: But name one country who is anxious.

ALLEN: Well, I can't say that because I'm not in the administration. But he has their telephone numbers.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Dick Allen, you're very good to come join us. Thank you very much.

ALLEN: Delighted.

BEGALA: Former National Security Adviser Richard Allen. Thank you for joining us, sir.

(APPLAUSE)

Next, we may not be at war with Iraq yet, but the rhetorical bullets are already bullets are already flying in the battle for the White House in 2004.

And later, the gospel according to Reverend Jerry Falwell.

We will put George W. Bush's favorite preacher in the CROSSFIRE.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Never mind that the calendar says it's only January 23, 2003. By the way, my sister's birthday; happy birthday Kathleen.

But the 2004 presidential race is already going full steam ahead. The six Democratic candidates -- there may yet be more -- as well as President Bush, are campaigning at every opportunity. And everyone has got an eye on President Bush's slowly sinking poll numbers.

Looming ahead of course, the great unknown. What political impact might there be with a possible war in Iraq?

Here to talk about the political wars, Democratic pollster Mark Mellman and Washington Times editorial page editor, Tony Blankley.

(APPLAUSE)

Gentlemen, thank you.

Good to see you. NOVAK: Mark Mellman, you may hot believe this, but some of my best friends are Democrats.

(LAUGHTER)

And one of my favorite Democrats is the senior senator from Georgia, Zell Miller. And he had a wonderful op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal today. I just want to read a little bit of it, put it up on the screen.

"There's no one on this Hill or in this country who likes tax cuts more than I do. I've never seen one too big for me to swallow without water. I'd even been willing to pass both the president's plan and the Democrats plan as long we're willing to cut federal spending at the same time. I just firmly believe that government takes too much from our taxpayers, big and little alike. Let's suck in our gut, tighten our belts and spend these precious tax dollars on what's really important."

Don't you think that if more Democrats said that, you'd be in a lot better shape as a party because you wouldn't give the Republicans any issues?

MARK MELLMAN, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: Well, the reality is most Democrats, almost all Democrats do favor some kind of tax cuts. The question is, "Where's it going? Is it going to the wealthiest Americans, the millionaires? Or it going to ordinary people?"

Democrats want a tax cut that's going to go to ordinary people.

NOVAK: You missed his point.

MELLMAN: Democrats don't want to spend Social Security money. I don't think Senator Miller is going to be that anxious to spend people's Social Security money on taxes for the wealthiest...

NOVAK: You missed his point.

MELLMAN: ... Americans.

NOVAK: So disappointing.

BEGALA: Tony, let me ask you -- pressing this tax point. First off, it's good to see you again.

TONY BLANKLEY, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: Good to see you as well.

BEGALA: You're the only Republican who can out dress Willie Brown. The mayor of San Francisco was on here last night.

(LAUGHTER)

And man, you can match him. You just -- God, you look great.

(LAUGHTER) Any way, Karl Rove, our friend, your friend, the president's chief political adviser, yesterday declared hilariously -- apparently with a straight face -- that Mr. Bush is a Populist.

This despite the fact that independent studies show that 70 percent of the Bush tax cut goes to the Novakian rich. Why not just be honest and say, "Look, whatever his policy may be, wise or unwise, but it's certainly not a Populist plan."

Why are they pulling this out?

BLANKLEY: Well, you know, I'm glad you asked.

(LAUGHTER)

I happened to bring an editorial that we did in the Washington Times...

BEGALA: From your paper.

BLANKLEY: ... last week on middle class tax cuts, comparing what the Bush...

MELLMAN: You bring charts too.

BLANKLEY: Mine have to be accurate.

(LAUGHTER)

Comparing what the Bush and the House Democratic plans offer to middle class families. And this families making -- in fact here's one -- single parent, one child, $20,000 a year income. The Republicans pay him $400, Democrats $300 per year.

In almost all of the categories of people making less than $70,000 a year, the Republican plan delivers more money whether they've got no kids, one kid, two kids, three kids, income 20, 30, 40, 60. The Republican plan delivers more money into the hands of those people than the Democratic plan.

BEGALA: So Bush is a Populist, right, that's...

BLANKLEY: Well, no I don't think he's a Populist. I mean, Huey Long was a Populist.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I would give him credit for (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BLANKLEY: I don't there are any true Populists left in big time politics today.

NOVAK: You know, you know, you're...

BLANKLEY: But as far as the tax cut is concerned, we can characterize it any way you want, but if you look where the dollars are going, the Republican plan gets more money to the middle class people than the Democratic plan.

NOVAK: Mark Mellman, the big thing that you're -- that the Democrats are trying to do is say that people -- that this is the Depression, that it's like 1930s and people are on the streets.

I just want to show you a CNN/"TIME" poll asking about how people regard their own family's finances -- good, 75 percent, poor, 25 percent.

Man, if you can get three out of four Americans to say they're doing pretty good, these are not such lean times, are they?

MELLMAN: Look, I think you're missing the reality that most people face out there, Bob.

Most people are pretty anxious about their economic circumstances...

NOVAK: How do you explain that then?

MELLMAN: Well, I think if you asked a different question, you get a different answer, and the answer would be that people feel anxious about their financial situation.

We've just lost 200,000 more jobs in the last couple of months. Nobody is sitting there saying, "I don't care about that."

NOVAK: They said they feel good about it. They feel...

MELLMAN: They feel good about those 200,000 jobs being lost?

NOVAK: They feel good about their...

MELLMAN: They feel good about their incomes declining? They feel good about the cost of their college education -- kid's college education going up?

I don't think they do.

NOVAK: Maybe they don't buy (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BEGALA I think this is a wonderful message. I hope President Bush -- he watches every night, you know -- calls me at home and complains.

(LAUGHTER)

I hope he's listening to Novak. I hope he campaigns on this, Tony, because this is what people -- what President Bush is going to take to the voters, this record. Let me put it up on the screen.

Unemployment, up by 2.2 million -- 2.2 million people lost their jobs under Bush. Stock market down 38 percent under Bush. Poverty up 1.3 million under Bush. Homelessness up 19 percent. Budget deficit way up from a $300 billion surplus, a $300 billion deficit. The uninsured people without health care, up 1.4 million. This is the Bush economic record.

Now are we better off than we were two years ago?

BLANKLEY: Now, look, everybody...

BEGALA: I don't think so.

BLANKLEY: ... understands that the economy had a bubble in the late '90s. It started deflating under the Clinton watch. It continues now. I don't think the economy...

MELLMAN: Bob doesn't think it's deflating.

BLANKLEY: ... well, I...

MELLMAN: Bob thinks it's going great.

BLANKLEY: No, and I'll tell you...

MELLMAN: He thinks everybody is thrilled.

NOVAK: I (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: I'll bet you are thrilled.

(APPLAUSE)

BLANKLEY: The truth of the matter...

MELLMAN: But I'll bet you're pretty much alone in being thrilled...

(APPLAUSE)

BLANKLEY: ... look, the fact is the economy is pretty close to dead in the water right now. The public is concerned...

NOVAK: It is not.

BLANKLEY: Of course it is.

NOVAK: Dead in the water?

BLANKLEY: Let me just finish a thought.

BEGALA: Yes, sir.

BLANKLEY: I think the public is smarter than you impute to them, than you impute their intelligence to them. I think they understand that there's a process going on with the bubble, the collapse, the war, terrorism. And they feel pretty good about things under the circumstances. They're a little worried about the future.

BEGALA: Yes. BLANKLEY: They don't blame the president for everything, which is why he's at a 61 percent approval rating in Gallup Poll, which is CNN's pollster. They're pretty reasonable about figuring out what's the consequences of a presidential policy, and seeing what he's done.

He's cut taxes. We've had interest rates come down through the Federal Reserve from 6 percent to 1.25. We've stimulated the economy in the last two years, a half trillion more spending between the trillion dollars -- surplus we had and now the quarter trillion deficit. That's very stimulative.

They recognize the federal government is doing a lot to try to make the economy better.

NOVAK: OK, you made a good point, Tony.

I want to change the subject to a dastardly plot, a conspiracy inside the Democratic Party. The presidential race is starting, and you people are already have a conspiracy to hurt one of your own, the Reverend Al Sharpton. You don't want him to succeed.

I want to read you two quotes from "The New York Post," which does some original reporting. And the first quote is this. We'll put it up there.

"If Sharpton does well, it's going to be hard to deny him a place at the podium at the Democratic convention in prime time, as a Democratic strategists, they don't want him."

And then the other one is, "We pray for Carol Moseley-Braun."

What does that mean? Suddenly, the defeated, disgraced former senator from Illinois, scandal ridden, Carol Moseley-Braun, who like the Reverend Al, is an African American, announces for president of the United States, is just to suck the oxygen away from him.

Are you part of that conspiracy?

MELLMAN: I'm part of no conspiracies of any kind.

NOVAK: Well, who is in the conspiracy?

MELLMAN: I don't know. You ought to ask those blind quotes in "The New York Post" and see who gave them.

BLANKLEY: I think Donna Brazile has talked about that.

NOVAK: Do you think it was Donna Brazile who was saying that?

BLANKLEY: I don't know that she was saying that, but she and a lot of other people have been articulating that concern.

NOVAK: It sounds like her though, doesn't it?

BEGALA: Well, she of course, was the campaign manager for Al Gore. She has a perfect right to support or oppose any candidate she wants...

NOVAK: You were going to say she (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(CROSSTALK)

MELLMAN: Look, Al Sharpton has a leadership position in the city of New York in the African American community. He's got to compete in the rest of the country.

NOVAK: He's got a right, doesn't he?

MELLMAN: Sorry?

NOVAK: He's got a right to run for president?

MELLMAN: Of course, he's got a right to run. Even you have a right to run for president.

NOVAK: Why do people like Begala attack him and deride him? Is that racism or what is it?

MELLMAN: It's not racism at all.

The fact is he's got -- the man is controversial. He's been in court as a result of his controversies. He's going to have to go around the country and earn votes. If he earns votes, he will do well. If he doesn't earn votes, he won't.

He's got to go out and earn those votes.

BEGALA: We're almost out of time, but I want to come back to one other comment that Karl Rove made. He also compared our president on the environment. George W. Bush, he called him a Teddy Roosevelt Republican.

Now, I happened to check this out too. Here's what TR did. TR created five national parks. Bush increased air pollution in national parks.

(LAUGHTER)

Roosevelt created 230 million acres of new federal land he preserved. Bush wants to drill in the Arctic. Roosevelt protected rivers and streams. Bush, of course, 500 percent increase in arsenic in the drinking water. TR is spinning in his grave, man. What is Karl smoking?

BLANKLEY: First of all, in the drilling in the arctic preserve doesn't affect any area that anyone -- any environmental value. It's got a very small footprint. Oh, boo, boo, boo. Yes, look, the fact is...

BEGALA: You're not allowed to boo on the show.

BLANKLEY: ... you drive here, you need gas, too. And we can get it from there at a very low environmental impact. Let me put... NOVAK: No, that's the last word, Tony. We are out of time. Thank you very much, Tony Blankley, Mark Mellman.

They'll be wishing for a hot time in Dixie tonight. Next in the "CNN News Alert", Connie Chung will tell us about the latest invasion from the far north.

And later, we will ask whether the left wing ever will be satisfied until they erase any hint that public officials might be, god forbid, religious.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

BEGALA: Coming up next, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is funded by the state. We'll put the unholy alliance between the Bush administration and the radical right in the CROSSFIRE. And later, the picture of the day. Something you'll be tempted to sing along with. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

The Bill of Rights forbids Congress from establishing a national religion. But left wingers seem to think it was really designed to keep religious people out of government and away from federal money that can help poor people. In the CROSSFIRE to debate god and government are the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And from Lynchburg, Virginia, the chancellor of Liberty University, the Reverend Jerry Falwell.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thank you both for joining us. Reverend Falwell, let me start with you first. Thank you for coming out on a bitter cold night down there in Lynchburg. Thanks for joining us.

REV. JERRY FALWELL, FOUNDER AND CHANCELLOR, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: Surely.

BEGALA: The question of god and government arose in a very pronounced way today. Our president sought to nominate for the AIDS commission a man by the name of Thacker. A graduate of Bob Jones University, an employee -- former employee of Bob Jones University. The same university he went to appeal the radical right to defeat John McCain.

Mr. Thacker had said, among other things, about AIDS, to serve on the AIDS commission, that AIDS is a gay plague. Is that your view?

FALWELL: Well, I don't know Mr. Thacker, and I don't have any idea whether he is qualified or not qualified to be on the commission. But I have an idea that a little bit of this is Christian bashing, because I did got to his Web site. He did say that homosexuality is sin. Well every Christian believes that.

And he did say that the best approach to delivering a nation from AIDS is abstinence. And the president, Mr. Bush, believes that. And whether that's heterosexuals who are not married to each other, or gays and lesbians, et cetera. And so I'm not sure Mr. Thacker is all that much off the beam. But Christian bashing is politically correct, and you are the best at it, Paul, that I've met yet.

BEGALA: Well, of course, Reverend, I don't bash Christians. I am a Christian; a practicing one at that. And I resent that implication...

(APPLAUSE)

FALWELL: Well I heard you say a moment ago that the radical right...

BEGALA: The radical right? That's what you are.

FALWELL: You said that a moment ago -- you referred to evangelical Christians as the radical right. There are 80 million Christians in this country who have trusted Jesus Christ through his death burial resurrection to be born again. And if they're all radicals, then Billy Graham is a radical, and millions of others are. And I don't buy that and I don't accept the word "radical."

BEGALA: Do you believe that AIDS is a gay plague? Just answer the question. Is it a gay plague?

FALWELL: No, it is not.

NOVAK: I think he answered.

FALWELL: I think that all of the sexually transmitted diseases, syphilis and gonorrhea and so forth and so on, could be avoided by abstinence. That is, no sex outside of marriage except between a man and a woman. And that's god's plan, that's not a very difficult thing to follow.

NOVAK: The other big news today, Barry Lynn, which I gather has excited you and your cohort, is that the government is part of the faith-based initiative. The first time it's going to be used, the Department of Housing, facilities for -- to help poor people through faith-based things. And I would like to you read you what Richard Hauser, the general counsel of the department, said to explain it.

He said, "We see no reason to exclude religious organizations from participation in these programs if there can be a reasonable mechanism to ensure that a program has no particular religious connotation one way or another. There's no reason you can't have a cathedral upstairs and something that will look like any other room in the basement for counseling."

Isn't that reasonable? REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: No, because what you miss is that what's happening here is a plan to build for the first time in the history of this country with federal tax dollars churches, synagogues, places of worship that also happen to do some secular service, social service delivery. We've never had -- the people of this country asked to build the church. If you want to build a wing on to your church, Bob, to do some good work for the homeless, you've got to collect it voluntary, not distract it from all of the taxpayers.

NOVAK: Well that's what the faith-based initiative is. You know the history as...

LYNN: Yes, but...

NOVAK: ... well as I do, Barry.

LYNN: Absolutely. Probably the worst idea since they tried to take King Kong off of Skull Island and take him to New York. This is a terrible idea.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: And you know the history was that we didn't want a preference for one religion or another, particularly the Episcopalian Church. This is not -- there's no preference for anybody here. Is there?

LYNN: Yes there is. It a preference for those groups that are most politically attractive to this administration who apparently get the money. Remember, in the first round of funding, astonishingly, Reverend Pat Robertson was one of 21 recipients. He got over $500,000. The very man who says that he personally elected President Bush to office.

So don't tell me that there is no preference. There's going to be preference to the political friends and cronies of this administration.

BEGALA: Let me put you on the spot, then, Reverend Falwell. Many years ago, when Pope John Paul II, the leader of my church, the Catholic Church, came to America, you pointedly refused, declined to meet with him, saying you didn't believe in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) movement. That's your right. Do you want your tax dollars to go to the Catholic Church? Do you want your tax dollars to go to Minister Farrakhan? Do you want your tax dollars...

FALWELL: First of all, I've never refused to meet with the pope. I would be very honored to meet with the hope. Secondly, I do believe the president is doing the right thing. The first amendment does not say that government should be hostile toward religion, but rather neutral. And as Bob Novak just said...

BEGALA: Will you support your tax dollars go to a mosque?

FALWELL: ... no state church. We all agree with that. George W. Bush has said in his December 12 speech in Philadelphia that whether it's the sign of the crescent or the star of David, or the cross, if they are helping people, the fact that they're religious doesn't make them unacceptable.

BEGALA: Reverend, I pray to almighty god that you will give me a straight answer on this question. Do you want your tax dollars to go to Minister Farrakhan, to other radical Islamic movements, to the Christian identity movement, which I think you would agree besmirches Christianity in a racist nonreligion, but they claim to be a religion? Do you want your tax dollars to go to so-called religions like that?

FALWELL: I don't want $130 million a year to go to planned parenthood that aborted 700,000 babies last year and made $1 billion doing it. But I don't have any control of where our taxes go. But let me say something.

LYNN: You know Dr. Falwell, you do -- actually we do have control.

FALWELL: I have never applied for one cent from the government. Nor have I ever accepted a penny from federal, state or local government. We run Liberty University with 14,000 students the way we want to run it because we don't take any federal funds and don't plan to.

NOVAK: Barry Lynn, let me bring up one more thing. There's a 54-year-old Vietnam combat veteran, Patrick Coven (ph), retired Philadelphia policeman. He has lost his job as an honored guardsman for funerals at a state military cemetery near Trenton, New Jersey. And the reason for the firing is that -- this is what he would say: "This flag is presented on behalf of a grateful nation and the United States Army as a token of appreciation for their loved one's honorable and faithful service." And then he'd hand the flag to the deceased's kin.

Now if the next of kin has expressed a religious preference or belief, then instructions continue: "God bless you and this family. And god bless the United States of America." Sure, I want you to be on my side of this. To fire this man for saying that, that's outrageous, isn't it?

LYNN: No. The Department of Veterans Affairs said that he was not comporting himself with what were the standards of their own regulations. They said, you have to know for sure that someone wants you to add those words. And he was deciding on his own whether to add them or not.

FALWELL: That's not true, Barry.

LYNN: So this has nothing to do -- but now let me go back to other question about Jerry. Jerry Falwell, you are always prepared to tell us everything. What books to read, what we ought to watch on television, what religion we ought to be.

(APPLAUSE)

FALWELL: I've never told you what books to read. I wish you would read the bible. You wouldn't be a liberal.

LYNN: But why is it that you, who say you won't accept any dime from the federal government, why don't you tell all religious groups they'd be better off just saying no to government funding of religion? At least to the building of cathedrals with it. Why can't you tell them that?

FALWELL: Well, first of all, I don't believe the federal funds have built any cathedrals, and neither do you. That's all a red herring and you know it.

LYNN: Not in the last 200 years.

NOVAK: Let him answer you.

FALWELL: But I do believe it is all right for the Salvation Army, for any groups religious who are feeding the poor and getting homeless off the street in this cold weather. The fact that they happen to be people of faith doesn't make them reprehensible.

You're an ACLU former staff member and you learned how to be anti-religious with them. And now you help Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And you get up in the morning...

LYNN: Thank you for my history, but I don't think people want to hear that. They'd like to hear about this issue.

FALWELL: ... thinking, what can I do to hurt people of faith in this country? And you have Reverend on your name, and you know and I know you've never pastored a church in your life.

LYNN: I have. And, as a matter of fact, I would be happy to come down and preach...

FALWELL: What's the location of that church?

LYNN: I would like to preach...

FALWELL: What's the name and location of the church you pastored? It certainly has a name.

LYNN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Congregational Church in New Hampshire. How about that? Why don't you invite me down...

FALWELL: What's the name of the church, and what's the location?

LYNN: Why don't you invite me down -- pleased invite me down to your church and I will preach the gospel of Jesus Christ at every service on any Sunday you choose. Will you do that? Will do you that? I didn't think so.

FALWELL: I wouldn't trust you to preach the gospel out on the corner.

LYNN: I didn't think so.

BEGALA: Reverend Jerry Falwell, thank you for joining us from Lynchburg on a cold night. Thank you Reverend Barry Lynn as well.

FALWELL: God bless you all.

BEGALA: God bless you all? In a little bit, one of our viewers fires back his perfect recipe for getting your own slice of President Bush's new tax cuts. But next, a new group wants to replace the theme song on the TV show "Friends." Their demo tape is our picture of the day. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: It was all smiles and harmony the other night, when the six Democratic presidential candidates got together for their first photo opportunity. But after they finished mugging for the cameras, the presidential wannabes also made a trip into the recording studio.

The result? Courtesy of the Internet Web site Patchy Fog Productions, is our picture of the day. Sing along, if you want to.

(MUSIC)

BEGALA: It's a lovely skirt that Howard Dean is wearing in that. Of course, President Bush campaigned they have their own theme song. It's that Beatles' old hit, "Just Give Me Money, That's What I Want." You remember that one?

NOVAK: Not funny, Paul. Not funny.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: You bombed on that one.

BEGALA: Next, one of our viewers has a little bomb for Bob Novak and his favorite word. We will let you know what that is in "Fireback" coming up next.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now for "Fireback." I hope you are locked and loaded. According to the e-mail you certainly are.

We'll start with K. Gibson of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, who writes, "Paul, my wife made a cake so rich it would be in line to get a Bush tax cut." I like that. It's the Novak case, I guess.

NOVAK: It's nice to know there are still a few Democrats left in South Carolina. Not many, though.

The next one is from Bob Rumsfeld of Eastern, Pennsylvania. He says, "What do you get when you clone on a liberal and a talk show host? Answer: Begala Interruptus. It appears to me the only way Begala can make his point is by constantly interrupting everyone on the show. How can you take it night after night? My wife and I are loyal CROSSFIRE viewers, but enough is enough."

NOVAK: Bob, you have to be a little sympathetic to Paul. He's not a bad fella. He just can't stand hearing the truth and he has to interrupt you.

BEGALA: No, it's so difficult to always be correct all of the time. And I feel the obligation to correct my friend Mr. Novak, and he always wrong. And so I have to try to help him out.

Debbie Leancini (ph) from (UNINTELLIGIBLE), California, writes, "Bob, I have to laugh when I hear you say you're tired of all the Bush bashing from Paul and James. Now you know how Democrats felt for eight years while Republicans bashed Clinton constantly. It seems to me you Republicans can dish it out but you can't take it."

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK : I think you can be an honest person. I don't know how good your memory is, but I think you will agree that in eight difficult years for me of the Clinton administration I was not a Clinton basher.

BEGALA: Well you weren't a Clinton hater, but I think you were very critical of our president.

NOVAK: I wasn't a basher. I never did the things and said the things about our president that you say about this president with less justification.

BEGALA: Because Clinton was stupid. That's why. You can't say he was stupid, but you might say he's a bad husband.

NOVAK: You proved my point, Paul, and you make yourself look worse.

Dennis of Sunriver, Oregon said, "Mr. Novak's overuse of the word "demagoguery," which he uses to label any statement that differs from his opinion, is irritating, disingenuous and boring. Please assist him in expanding his vocabulary."

Thank you very much, Dennis. But you know what you are, little Dennis? You're a demagogue.

BEGALA: Congressman Nick Lampson is here from Texas. A great Texas Democrat from Congress. Thank you for joining us, Congressman.

(APPLAUSE)

REP. NICK LAMPSON (D), TEXAS: You are very welcome. Thank you.

BEGALA: Good to see you.

LAMPSON: Well, I'm Congressman Nick Lampson from Beaumont, Texas. And Bob, I have a question for you about the policy on Iraq. In light of the fact that this is a policy that shouldn't be about George Bush but should be about my kids and my grandkids, and in light of the current economic and future economic policy that we seem to be living with right now, how and when are we going to pay for this?

NOVAK: Well you know, Congressman, like most Democrats, you are very short sighted and have very little vision. This isn't a question of how we pay for it. We can pay for anything. The question is whether we should do it.

The question is whether we should unprovoked attack another country with a preemptive strike. That's what worries me.

LAMPSON: And should we not also just do some of the other things that so many of the citizens across this country are demanding from our government? Help with health insurance. And help with...

NOVAK: Well, the losers in this society always demand a lot of things. You appeal to the losers, and you end up like Albania.

BEGALA: Well, somebody has to appeal to the losers. I guess Bob is doing it for all of us, Congressman. Thank you very much, Nick Lampson, for that question there.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: The truth is, you know, any kind of a decent society would do something about healthcare, and I think we ought to. And the congressman makes a very good point.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala.

NOVAK: I think we've fought that fight before, didn't we?

BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala, once again. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 23, 2003 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.
On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.

On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, the clock ticks down on weapons inspections.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: But so far it has treated disarmament like a game of hide and seek.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: If it comes to war, what friends can the U.S. count on?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think we'll have to worry about going it alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Putting God in government, from federal dollars for church programs to a judicial bias for the Ten Commandments. But not quite to an AIDS Commission nominee who talks about the "gay plague."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECY.: That remark is far removed from the what the president believes and for what the president stands for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, the battle for the right to take on the president in 2004.

Tonight, on CROSSFIRE.

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

ROBERT NOVAK, CNN CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, the Bush administration tips its hand about what Iraqi President Saddam Hussein is really up to and starts finding out who its allies really are.

Also, the left wing's never ending crusade to muscle people who sound too religious. Forget about freedom of speech.

That's a freedom we intend to exercise right now with the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."

With a report from U.N. weapons inspectors four days away, the Bush administration has launched a counteroffensive for support in a war against Iraq.

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz gave a saber rattling speech accusing Saddam Hussein of ordering the execution of Iraqi scientists who cooperate with the U.N. inspectors.

Secretary of State Colin Powell publicly hinted the U.S. may not ask the U.N. Security Council to authorize force. But he suggested the U.S. won't have to go it alone.

Meanwhile, Democratic Senator John Kerry labeled the Bush administration's approach as "blustering unilateralism." Instead, Kerry called for a "bold, progressive internationalism." That's a presidential hopeful trying to be anti-Hussein and anti-Bush at the very same time.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN CO-HOST: And I think he pulled it off quite well. It seems to me our president needs to not simply tell us that Saddam Hussein is an evil, evil man. We know that. He better persuade us why we need to go to war right now, right there. And he hasn't done it yet.

Well, White House political guru Karl Rove, today -- or yesterday, declared his boss, President Bush, to be a Populist. Mr. Rove claims that our president's call for an end to the taxation of dividends is aimed at the little guy. Of course, the Tax Policy Center reports that nearly all -- 70 percent in fact -- of the benefits of Mr. Bush's tax cut would go to the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans.

Now George W. Bush started out, for those of you scoring at home, as a compassionate conservative. He then reinvented himself as a different kind of Republican. After that, remember the reformer with results. And then of course he was a steely wartime leader. And now, a Populist.

This guy has had more makeovers than Madonna.

Perhaps, next, Mr. Bush, will insist that he's actually the seven foot tall center for the L.A. Lakers and demand that everyone call him President Shaq Daddy.

That's...

NOVAK: You know you're...

BEGALA: ... about as likely.

NOVAK: ... trying to do a Jerry Leno and you're not nearly as funny as Jerry Leno, not even in the same -- Jay Leno...

(LAUGHTER)

... you're not even in the same category. I don't watch him that much, but I read his reports.

You know, the Treasury says that of the top 5 percent in income, they now pay 72.4 percent of the taxes. Under Bush, they would pay 73.3 percent. So they actually pay more. It's a tax increase.

Senator Bob Graham of Florida, who has been looking at a run for the Democratic presidential nomination, had announcement today. But not the one his supporters were hoping for.

He called reports into his Capitol Hill office to reveal that at age 66, he will undergo heart surgery the week of February 3. That week, he said, was when he planned to announce his candidacy for president.

Such an announcement is now postponed indefinitely, pending Senator Graham's physical condition.

Is it an omen that the most grown-up Democratic candidate may not have the heart to run?

BEGALA: I'll tell you what, he is an enormously bright guy. Everybody wishes him the best. And he's now only four heart surgeries behind Dick Cheney.

(LAUGHTER)

So we wish you well, Senator Graham.

(APPLAUSE)

We love you, and we hope you will recover quickly. We know you will.

(APPLAUSE)

Now normal people of course have a word for those who believe that AIDS is a gay plague. We call them bigots. We also have a word for people who think that being gay is some sort of a spiritual failing that can be cured by prayer. We call them crackpots.

The Bush administration, however, wanted to call a man who hopes (ph) both of these views something else. Mr. Bush wanted to call him a member of the President's Advisory Commission on HIV and AIDS. Jerry Thacker, a graduate and former employee of Bob Jones University, was under consideration to sit on the prestigious presidential panel that advises our president on AIDS policy.

Now Mr. Thacker withdrew his name from consideration this afternoon during the controversy over his comments. The White House then went into full damage control mode. Of course, even the Bushes couldn't find a way to blame this one on Bill Clinton. So instead, the president, through his spokesman, blamed his own Cabinet, presumably the secretary of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson.

Apparently, the buck stops there under the Bush administration. But perhaps Mr. Bush was actually -- decided to settle on Thacker when he was told my his staff that all of the original Three Stooges are dead.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, I had thought recently that you had gotten over this attempt to end every "Political News Alert" with an attack on our president. But apparently you haven't. This audience didn't even applaud you, this Democratic audience. And I've sick of it, and I'm sure a lot of the viewers are sick of it as well.

BEGALA: Ha. You know what, you had better take some medicine because I ain't going to stop.

NOVAK : Jerry Springer, who hosts one of the sleaziest of all sleazy television programs, says he might run for the U.S. Senate from Ohio as a -- guess what -- Democrat.

He is a former mayor of Cincinnati, who once ran for governor. But he left politics to go down hill. He became a television news anchor. And then started the nationally syndicated "Jerry Springer Show," where the principles strip down to their underwear.

That has made Jerry a multi-millionaire. I think his candidacy is a good idea. Springer's opponent would be Republican Senator George Voinovich, a former governor and a distinguished statesman, but maybe a little stodgy.

What better contrast that to run a swinging Democrat against him?

BEGALA: OK, let's have the first debate right here on CROSSFIRE. Jerry Springer has been on. Let's have Senator Voinovich on, and we'll host the debate right here on CROSSFIRE.

I'd love to see it.

Well, our friend and CNN colleague, Al Hunt, who also writes at the "Wall Street Journal," notes today that affirmative action is practiced at our military academies, which give African American and Hispanic candidates for admission an average of 60 to 100 extra points on their SAT scores.

General Dan Christman, the former superintendent of West Point tells Mr. Hunt -- quote --"We're training our cadets for an Army that operates around the world in a very diverse environment with a huge mixture of cultural, religious and ethnic balances. It is very important that our young officers appreciate the diversity in our own society, and the environment that he or she will be operating in overseas."

No word yet on whether President Bush will end affirmative action at the service academies. We do know of course he benefited from affirmative action, the kind for the hard drinking, non-studying, under-achieving, unqualified children of the Eastern moneyed elite.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Paul, only you and Al Hunt do not understand that the United States Army, which has a lot of diversity in enlisted men need a diverse officer corps. That does not justify discriminating against people applying for graduate school at the University of Michigan, which is against the Constitution.

BEGALA: Well, we'll see. We'll let the Supreme Court decide.

Will the Bush administration go it alone in Iraq, or at least with very little help?

Former National Security Adviser Richard Allen will step into the CROSSFIRE to debate it next.

Later we will catch up with the 2004 presidential race, which believe it or not, is already going at full speed.

And then, the Reverend Jerry Falwell, we'll ask him his views about that potential Bush administration nominee that I mentioned a moment ago, the guy who called AIDS a gay plague.

Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: The politics of a possible war with Iraq have certainly created some strange international bedfellows. France and Germany are working together to delay a U.S. attack.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld dismisses that effort as old Europe. And Secretary of State Colin Powell says the U.S. has other friends and won't go it alone if it comes to war.

But on the home front, recent U.S. polls show support slipping for a war in Iraq. Is the president's policy in trouble?

First, in the CROSSFIRE tonight, is former National Security Adviser, Richard V. Allen.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Mr. Allen.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you for coming, sir.

RICHARD ALLEN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Thanks for having me.

BEGALA: Thank you.

Mr. Allen, Mr. Novak a moment ago mentions some public opinion polling suggests that popular support for the war is not as strong -- potential war in Iraq, not as strong as it was some months ago.

One of the things my friends who work for President Bush say is, "Well, we haven't made our case."

ALLEN: You have friends that work for Bush?

BEGALA: I have a lot of them. I'm from Texas. They're all my pals. They're lovely people. We just disagree on policy.

ALLEN: Oh, I see.

BEGALA: And they say, "Well, we haven't made our case yet. Wait for the State of the Union; we'll make our case."

So I actually had my assistant, Josh Cowan (ph), go on the White House Web site -- actually go to Nexus and look up how many times the president has spoken on Iraq. Let me put it up on the board. One hundred and thirty five speeches our president has give in which he's at least referred to Iraq and that's contrasted with only 106 where he ever talked about poverty, only 58 when he talked about unemployment. Only 47 when he talked about Osama bin Laden.

The president has made his case. We just ain't buying it, isn't that right?

ALLEN: You might not be buying, but I think a lot of America is buying it.

The president should be speaking that many time. You can contrast it to poverty is you want. It's not an ideological argument.

Probably the most important thing that's ever happened to us in modern times any way and certainly in your lifetime, not in mine, is 9-11.

And...

BEGALA: Again, three times more speeches about Iraq than bin Laden and he still hasn't persuaded enough Americans I should think to support his position.

ALLEN: That's probably true. I don't do those statistics, and Josh did them for you, and I'm glad he did. But the point that I'd like to make is that the president should be talking about Iraq.

I happen to agree with him. I view Iraq as a centerpiece in the war on terrorism. And why should he talk about Osama bin Laden. We don't know where he is. Maybe he's alive; probably is alive. It's been conceded that he likely is alive.

But what does it matter? The president defined early on a long- term war on terrorism. In the days after 9-11 it was very clear what he said.

Yes.

NOVAK: Mr. Allen, there's something that as you watch what's going on in the administration, we all know there's been disagreements in the administration. And something has happened in the last couple of weeks. You're a great administration watcher. And I want you to interpret it.

I want you to listen to what the secretary of state, Colin Powell, said today. And let's listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POWELL: They are in material breach now. They have been in the past. They have a chance to fix the situation by disarming themselves. It's very clear what they had to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: He's talking about Iraq of course. And the secretary of state was considered as somebody who was very reticent.

Now has he said, "OK, I have lost this battle and war hawks, led by our friend Dick Cheney, are in charge?"

Is that -- how do you interpret that?

ALLEN: Well, that's a very interest observation. I mean, you're an astute administration watcher, and you too has noticed that something has changed. And it seems that the secretary of state is more fully convincing in his presentation of a case that is more completely in line with the administration's view.

The president sets the tone. It's the president's foreign policy, not Colin Powell's. And I think the president has recently, in recent weeks, said very emphatically to his people, "We are going to sing from one sheet of music."

That's the only way the administration should actually develop its policies and implement those policies.

Now it doesn't hold across the board. You can come right back to me and say, "Well, there's a perhaps a difference on North Korea," an area that you know a lot about, and I spent a lot of time looking at.

You don't have to have consistency. This great national interest that we are now engaged in, the pursuit of our national interest, is exceptionally important. And I hope that everyone continues to sing from that same sheet of music. Certainly the secretary of defense does. And certainly Rich Armitage does, the deputy secretary of defense. Certainly John Bolton does.

BEGALA: Let me ask you about somebody who does, who is in the opposition party, one of the leaders of mu party, the Democratic Party. John Kerry gave a speech today. He's of course a decorated combat hero from the Vietnam conflict.

Senator Kerry reminded us that then Governor Bush as a candidate promised us an exit strategy before he ever sent us into another conflict, a gloss on the old Weinberger doctrine, later Powell doctrine.

Here's what Senator Kerry said today. Want you to take a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: The Bush administration has a plan for waging war, but no plan for wining the peace. It has invested mightily in the tools of destruction, but meagerly in the tools of peaceful construction.

It offers the peoples in the greater Middle East retribution and war, but little hope for liberty and prosperity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: What is our plan for wining the peace?

ALLEN: Wow, that's pretty strong stuff.

BEGALA: Yes, sir.

ALLEN: It's oriented toward 2004, I believe probably the months of November more than anything else.

BEGALA: It's an enormously important point, though.

ALLEN: Well, I don't know that to be the case. As a matter of fact, my information is that we've done more planning not only for the conduct of this war, but for the post-war scenario should war be necessary. And we will wage it -- and if we wage it, we'll win it -- to provide for reconstruction.

The Iraqi people can themselves make an enormous contribution. They're very clever and very dedicated people.

NOVAK: We're out of time, but I desperately need you to clarify something. Don Rumsfeld, this week, said that there were other countries who are anxious, anxious to join us in this war. Who is hie talking about? It's certainly not Britain where their Labor Party is knocking the hell out of Prime Minister Blair. ALLEN: Well, it certainly wouldn't be our great allies, the French would it, or the Germans, who owe us slightly for something in the past century. And it doesn't seem to be the Korean in Korea.

But I'm sure that he has a list and he's probably...

NOVAK: But name one country who is anxious.

ALLEN: Well, I can't say that because I'm not in the administration. But he has their telephone numbers.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Dick Allen, you're very good to come join us. Thank you very much.

ALLEN: Delighted.

BEGALA: Former National Security Adviser Richard Allen. Thank you for joining us, sir.

(APPLAUSE)

Next, we may not be at war with Iraq yet, but the rhetorical bullets are already bullets are already flying in the battle for the White House in 2004.

And later, the gospel according to Reverend Jerry Falwell.

We will put George W. Bush's favorite preacher in the CROSSFIRE.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Never mind that the calendar says it's only January 23, 2003. By the way, my sister's birthday; happy birthday Kathleen.

But the 2004 presidential race is already going full steam ahead. The six Democratic candidates -- there may yet be more -- as well as President Bush, are campaigning at every opportunity. And everyone has got an eye on President Bush's slowly sinking poll numbers.

Looming ahead of course, the great unknown. What political impact might there be with a possible war in Iraq?

Here to talk about the political wars, Democratic pollster Mark Mellman and Washington Times editorial page editor, Tony Blankley.

(APPLAUSE)

Gentlemen, thank you.

Good to see you. NOVAK: Mark Mellman, you may hot believe this, but some of my best friends are Democrats.

(LAUGHTER)

And one of my favorite Democrats is the senior senator from Georgia, Zell Miller. And he had a wonderful op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal today. I just want to read a little bit of it, put it up on the screen.

"There's no one on this Hill or in this country who likes tax cuts more than I do. I've never seen one too big for me to swallow without water. I'd even been willing to pass both the president's plan and the Democrats plan as long we're willing to cut federal spending at the same time. I just firmly believe that government takes too much from our taxpayers, big and little alike. Let's suck in our gut, tighten our belts and spend these precious tax dollars on what's really important."

Don't you think that if more Democrats said that, you'd be in a lot better shape as a party because you wouldn't give the Republicans any issues?

MARK MELLMAN, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: Well, the reality is most Democrats, almost all Democrats do favor some kind of tax cuts. The question is, "Where's it going? Is it going to the wealthiest Americans, the millionaires? Or it going to ordinary people?"

Democrats want a tax cut that's going to go to ordinary people.

NOVAK: You missed his point.

MELLMAN: Democrats don't want to spend Social Security money. I don't think Senator Miller is going to be that anxious to spend people's Social Security money on taxes for the wealthiest...

NOVAK: You missed his point.

MELLMAN: ... Americans.

NOVAK: So disappointing.

BEGALA: Tony, let me ask you -- pressing this tax point. First off, it's good to see you again.

TONY BLANKLEY, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: Good to see you as well.

BEGALA: You're the only Republican who can out dress Willie Brown. The mayor of San Francisco was on here last night.

(LAUGHTER)

And man, you can match him. You just -- God, you look great.

(LAUGHTER) Any way, Karl Rove, our friend, your friend, the president's chief political adviser, yesterday declared hilariously -- apparently with a straight face -- that Mr. Bush is a Populist.

This despite the fact that independent studies show that 70 percent of the Bush tax cut goes to the Novakian rich. Why not just be honest and say, "Look, whatever his policy may be, wise or unwise, but it's certainly not a Populist plan."

Why are they pulling this out?

BLANKLEY: Well, you know, I'm glad you asked.

(LAUGHTER)

I happened to bring an editorial that we did in the Washington Times...

BEGALA: From your paper.

BLANKLEY: ... last week on middle class tax cuts, comparing what the Bush...

MELLMAN: You bring charts too.

BLANKLEY: Mine have to be accurate.

(LAUGHTER)

Comparing what the Bush and the House Democratic plans offer to middle class families. And this families making -- in fact here's one -- single parent, one child, $20,000 a year income. The Republicans pay him $400, Democrats $300 per year.

In almost all of the categories of people making less than $70,000 a year, the Republican plan delivers more money whether they've got no kids, one kid, two kids, three kids, income 20, 30, 40, 60. The Republican plan delivers more money into the hands of those people than the Democratic plan.

BEGALA: So Bush is a Populist, right, that's...

BLANKLEY: Well, no I don't think he's a Populist. I mean, Huey Long was a Populist.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I would give him credit for (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BLANKLEY: I don't there are any true Populists left in big time politics today.

NOVAK: You know, you know, you're...

BLANKLEY: But as far as the tax cut is concerned, we can characterize it any way you want, but if you look where the dollars are going, the Republican plan gets more money to the middle class people than the Democratic plan.

NOVAK: Mark Mellman, the big thing that you're -- that the Democrats are trying to do is say that people -- that this is the Depression, that it's like 1930s and people are on the streets.

I just want to show you a CNN/"TIME" poll asking about how people regard their own family's finances -- good, 75 percent, poor, 25 percent.

Man, if you can get three out of four Americans to say they're doing pretty good, these are not such lean times, are they?

MELLMAN: Look, I think you're missing the reality that most people face out there, Bob.

Most people are pretty anxious about their economic circumstances...

NOVAK: How do you explain that then?

MELLMAN: Well, I think if you asked a different question, you get a different answer, and the answer would be that people feel anxious about their financial situation.

We've just lost 200,000 more jobs in the last couple of months. Nobody is sitting there saying, "I don't care about that."

NOVAK: They said they feel good about it. They feel...

MELLMAN: They feel good about those 200,000 jobs being lost?

NOVAK: They feel good about their...

MELLMAN: They feel good about their incomes declining? They feel good about the cost of their college education -- kid's college education going up?

I don't think they do.

NOVAK: Maybe they don't buy (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BEGALA I think this is a wonderful message. I hope President Bush -- he watches every night, you know -- calls me at home and complains.

(LAUGHTER)

I hope he's listening to Novak. I hope he campaigns on this, Tony, because this is what people -- what President Bush is going to take to the voters, this record. Let me put it up on the screen.

Unemployment, up by 2.2 million -- 2.2 million people lost their jobs under Bush. Stock market down 38 percent under Bush. Poverty up 1.3 million under Bush. Homelessness up 19 percent. Budget deficit way up from a $300 billion surplus, a $300 billion deficit. The uninsured people without health care, up 1.4 million. This is the Bush economic record.

Now are we better off than we were two years ago?

BLANKLEY: Now, look, everybody...

BEGALA: I don't think so.

BLANKLEY: ... understands that the economy had a bubble in the late '90s. It started deflating under the Clinton watch. It continues now. I don't think the economy...

MELLMAN: Bob doesn't think it's deflating.

BLANKLEY: ... well, I...

MELLMAN: Bob thinks it's going great.

BLANKLEY: No, and I'll tell you...

MELLMAN: He thinks everybody is thrilled.

NOVAK: I (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: I'll bet you are thrilled.

(APPLAUSE)

BLANKLEY: The truth of the matter...

MELLMAN: But I'll bet you're pretty much alone in being thrilled...

(APPLAUSE)

BLANKLEY: ... look, the fact is the economy is pretty close to dead in the water right now. The public is concerned...

NOVAK: It is not.

BLANKLEY: Of course it is.

NOVAK: Dead in the water?

BLANKLEY: Let me just finish a thought.

BEGALA: Yes, sir.

BLANKLEY: I think the public is smarter than you impute to them, than you impute their intelligence to them. I think they understand that there's a process going on with the bubble, the collapse, the war, terrorism. And they feel pretty good about things under the circumstances. They're a little worried about the future.

BEGALA: Yes. BLANKLEY: They don't blame the president for everything, which is why he's at a 61 percent approval rating in Gallup Poll, which is CNN's pollster. They're pretty reasonable about figuring out what's the consequences of a presidential policy, and seeing what he's done.

He's cut taxes. We've had interest rates come down through the Federal Reserve from 6 percent to 1.25. We've stimulated the economy in the last two years, a half trillion more spending between the trillion dollars -- surplus we had and now the quarter trillion deficit. That's very stimulative.

They recognize the federal government is doing a lot to try to make the economy better.

NOVAK: OK, you made a good point, Tony.

I want to change the subject to a dastardly plot, a conspiracy inside the Democratic Party. The presidential race is starting, and you people are already have a conspiracy to hurt one of your own, the Reverend Al Sharpton. You don't want him to succeed.

I want to read you two quotes from "The New York Post," which does some original reporting. And the first quote is this. We'll put it up there.

"If Sharpton does well, it's going to be hard to deny him a place at the podium at the Democratic convention in prime time, as a Democratic strategists, they don't want him."

And then the other one is, "We pray for Carol Moseley-Braun."

What does that mean? Suddenly, the defeated, disgraced former senator from Illinois, scandal ridden, Carol Moseley-Braun, who like the Reverend Al, is an African American, announces for president of the United States, is just to suck the oxygen away from him.

Are you part of that conspiracy?

MELLMAN: I'm part of no conspiracies of any kind.

NOVAK: Well, who is in the conspiracy?

MELLMAN: I don't know. You ought to ask those blind quotes in "The New York Post" and see who gave them.

BLANKLEY: I think Donna Brazile has talked about that.

NOVAK: Do you think it was Donna Brazile who was saying that?

BLANKLEY: I don't know that she was saying that, but she and a lot of other people have been articulating that concern.

NOVAK: It sounds like her though, doesn't it?

BEGALA: Well, she of course, was the campaign manager for Al Gore. She has a perfect right to support or oppose any candidate she wants...

NOVAK: You were going to say she (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(CROSSTALK)

MELLMAN: Look, Al Sharpton has a leadership position in the city of New York in the African American community. He's got to compete in the rest of the country.

NOVAK: He's got a right, doesn't he?

MELLMAN: Sorry?

NOVAK: He's got a right to run for president?

MELLMAN: Of course, he's got a right to run. Even you have a right to run for president.

NOVAK: Why do people like Begala attack him and deride him? Is that racism or what is it?

MELLMAN: It's not racism at all.

The fact is he's got -- the man is controversial. He's been in court as a result of his controversies. He's going to have to go around the country and earn votes. If he earns votes, he will do well. If he doesn't earn votes, he won't.

He's got to go out and earn those votes.

BEGALA: We're almost out of time, but I want to come back to one other comment that Karl Rove made. He also compared our president on the environment. George W. Bush, he called him a Teddy Roosevelt Republican.

Now, I happened to check this out too. Here's what TR did. TR created five national parks. Bush increased air pollution in national parks.

(LAUGHTER)

Roosevelt created 230 million acres of new federal land he preserved. Bush wants to drill in the Arctic. Roosevelt protected rivers and streams. Bush, of course, 500 percent increase in arsenic in the drinking water. TR is spinning in his grave, man. What is Karl smoking?

BLANKLEY: First of all, in the drilling in the arctic preserve doesn't affect any area that anyone -- any environmental value. It's got a very small footprint. Oh, boo, boo, boo. Yes, look, the fact is...

BEGALA: You're not allowed to boo on the show.

BLANKLEY: ... you drive here, you need gas, too. And we can get it from there at a very low environmental impact. Let me put... NOVAK: No, that's the last word, Tony. We are out of time. Thank you very much, Tony Blankley, Mark Mellman.

They'll be wishing for a hot time in Dixie tonight. Next in the "CNN News Alert", Connie Chung will tell us about the latest invasion from the far north.

And later, we will ask whether the left wing ever will be satisfied until they erase any hint that public officials might be, god forbid, religious.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

BEGALA: Coming up next, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is funded by the state. We'll put the unholy alliance between the Bush administration and the radical right in the CROSSFIRE. And later, the picture of the day. Something you'll be tempted to sing along with. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.

The Bill of Rights forbids Congress from establishing a national religion. But left wingers seem to think it was really designed to keep religious people out of government and away from federal money that can help poor people. In the CROSSFIRE to debate god and government are the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And from Lynchburg, Virginia, the chancellor of Liberty University, the Reverend Jerry Falwell.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Thank you both for joining us. Reverend Falwell, let me start with you first. Thank you for coming out on a bitter cold night down there in Lynchburg. Thanks for joining us.

REV. JERRY FALWELL, FOUNDER AND CHANCELLOR, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: Surely.

BEGALA: The question of god and government arose in a very pronounced way today. Our president sought to nominate for the AIDS commission a man by the name of Thacker. A graduate of Bob Jones University, an employee -- former employee of Bob Jones University. The same university he went to appeal the radical right to defeat John McCain.

Mr. Thacker had said, among other things, about AIDS, to serve on the AIDS commission, that AIDS is a gay plague. Is that your view?

FALWELL: Well, I don't know Mr. Thacker, and I don't have any idea whether he is qualified or not qualified to be on the commission. But I have an idea that a little bit of this is Christian bashing, because I did got to his Web site. He did say that homosexuality is sin. Well every Christian believes that.

And he did say that the best approach to delivering a nation from AIDS is abstinence. And the president, Mr. Bush, believes that. And whether that's heterosexuals who are not married to each other, or gays and lesbians, et cetera. And so I'm not sure Mr. Thacker is all that much off the beam. But Christian bashing is politically correct, and you are the best at it, Paul, that I've met yet.

BEGALA: Well, of course, Reverend, I don't bash Christians. I am a Christian; a practicing one at that. And I resent that implication...

(APPLAUSE)

FALWELL: Well I heard you say a moment ago that the radical right...

BEGALA: The radical right? That's what you are.

FALWELL: You said that a moment ago -- you referred to evangelical Christians as the radical right. There are 80 million Christians in this country who have trusted Jesus Christ through his death burial resurrection to be born again. And if they're all radicals, then Billy Graham is a radical, and millions of others are. And I don't buy that and I don't accept the word "radical."

BEGALA: Do you believe that AIDS is a gay plague? Just answer the question. Is it a gay plague?

FALWELL: No, it is not.

NOVAK: I think he answered.

FALWELL: I think that all of the sexually transmitted diseases, syphilis and gonorrhea and so forth and so on, could be avoided by abstinence. That is, no sex outside of marriage except between a man and a woman. And that's god's plan, that's not a very difficult thing to follow.

NOVAK: The other big news today, Barry Lynn, which I gather has excited you and your cohort, is that the government is part of the faith-based initiative. The first time it's going to be used, the Department of Housing, facilities for -- to help poor people through faith-based things. And I would like to you read you what Richard Hauser, the general counsel of the department, said to explain it.

He said, "We see no reason to exclude religious organizations from participation in these programs if there can be a reasonable mechanism to ensure that a program has no particular religious connotation one way or another. There's no reason you can't have a cathedral upstairs and something that will look like any other room in the basement for counseling."

Isn't that reasonable? REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: No, because what you miss is that what's happening here is a plan to build for the first time in the history of this country with federal tax dollars churches, synagogues, places of worship that also happen to do some secular service, social service delivery. We've never had -- the people of this country asked to build the church. If you want to build a wing on to your church, Bob, to do some good work for the homeless, you've got to collect it voluntary, not distract it from all of the taxpayers.

NOVAK: Well that's what the faith-based initiative is. You know the history as...

LYNN: Yes, but...

NOVAK: ... well as I do, Barry.

LYNN: Absolutely. Probably the worst idea since they tried to take King Kong off of Skull Island and take him to New York. This is a terrible idea.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: And you know the history was that we didn't want a preference for one religion or another, particularly the Episcopalian Church. This is not -- there's no preference for anybody here. Is there?

LYNN: Yes there is. It a preference for those groups that are most politically attractive to this administration who apparently get the money. Remember, in the first round of funding, astonishingly, Reverend Pat Robertson was one of 21 recipients. He got over $500,000. The very man who says that he personally elected President Bush to office.

So don't tell me that there is no preference. There's going to be preference to the political friends and cronies of this administration.

BEGALA: Let me put you on the spot, then, Reverend Falwell. Many years ago, when Pope John Paul II, the leader of my church, the Catholic Church, came to America, you pointedly refused, declined to meet with him, saying you didn't believe in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) movement. That's your right. Do you want your tax dollars to go to the Catholic Church? Do you want your tax dollars to go to Minister Farrakhan? Do you want your tax dollars...

FALWELL: First of all, I've never refused to meet with the pope. I would be very honored to meet with the hope. Secondly, I do believe the president is doing the right thing. The first amendment does not say that government should be hostile toward religion, but rather neutral. And as Bob Novak just said...

BEGALA: Will you support your tax dollars go to a mosque?

FALWELL: ... no state church. We all agree with that. George W. Bush has said in his December 12 speech in Philadelphia that whether it's the sign of the crescent or the star of David, or the cross, if they are helping people, the fact that they're religious doesn't make them unacceptable.

BEGALA: Reverend, I pray to almighty god that you will give me a straight answer on this question. Do you want your tax dollars to go to Minister Farrakhan, to other radical Islamic movements, to the Christian identity movement, which I think you would agree besmirches Christianity in a racist nonreligion, but they claim to be a religion? Do you want your tax dollars to go to so-called religions like that?

FALWELL: I don't want $130 million a year to go to planned parenthood that aborted 700,000 babies last year and made $1 billion doing it. But I don't have any control of where our taxes go. But let me say something.

LYNN: You know Dr. Falwell, you do -- actually we do have control.

FALWELL: I have never applied for one cent from the government. Nor have I ever accepted a penny from federal, state or local government. We run Liberty University with 14,000 students the way we want to run it because we don't take any federal funds and don't plan to.

NOVAK: Barry Lynn, let me bring up one more thing. There's a 54-year-old Vietnam combat veteran, Patrick Coven (ph), retired Philadelphia policeman. He has lost his job as an honored guardsman for funerals at a state military cemetery near Trenton, New Jersey. And the reason for the firing is that -- this is what he would say: "This flag is presented on behalf of a grateful nation and the United States Army as a token of appreciation for their loved one's honorable and faithful service." And then he'd hand the flag to the deceased's kin.

Now if the next of kin has expressed a religious preference or belief, then instructions continue: "God bless you and this family. And god bless the United States of America." Sure, I want you to be on my side of this. To fire this man for saying that, that's outrageous, isn't it?

LYNN: No. The Department of Veterans Affairs said that he was not comporting himself with what were the standards of their own regulations. They said, you have to know for sure that someone wants you to add those words. And he was deciding on his own whether to add them or not.

FALWELL: That's not true, Barry.

LYNN: So this has nothing to do -- but now let me go back to other question about Jerry. Jerry Falwell, you are always prepared to tell us everything. What books to read, what we ought to watch on television, what religion we ought to be.

(APPLAUSE)

FALWELL: I've never told you what books to read. I wish you would read the bible. You wouldn't be a liberal.

LYNN: But why is it that you, who say you won't accept any dime from the federal government, why don't you tell all religious groups they'd be better off just saying no to government funding of religion? At least to the building of cathedrals with it. Why can't you tell them that?

FALWELL: Well, first of all, I don't believe the federal funds have built any cathedrals, and neither do you. That's all a red herring and you know it.

LYNN: Not in the last 200 years.

NOVAK: Let him answer you.

FALWELL: But I do believe it is all right for the Salvation Army, for any groups religious who are feeding the poor and getting homeless off the street in this cold weather. The fact that they happen to be people of faith doesn't make them reprehensible.

You're an ACLU former staff member and you learned how to be anti-religious with them. And now you help Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And you get up in the morning...

LYNN: Thank you for my history, but I don't think people want to hear that. They'd like to hear about this issue.

FALWELL: ... thinking, what can I do to hurt people of faith in this country? And you have Reverend on your name, and you know and I know you've never pastored a church in your life.

LYNN: I have. And, as a matter of fact, I would be happy to come down and preach...

FALWELL: What's the location of that church?

LYNN: I would like to preach...

FALWELL: What's the name and location of the church you pastored? It certainly has a name.

LYNN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Congregational Church in New Hampshire. How about that? Why don't you invite me down...

FALWELL: What's the name of the church, and what's the location?

LYNN: Why don't you invite me down -- pleased invite me down to your church and I will preach the gospel of Jesus Christ at every service on any Sunday you choose. Will you do that? Will do you that? I didn't think so.

FALWELL: I wouldn't trust you to preach the gospel out on the corner.

LYNN: I didn't think so.

BEGALA: Reverend Jerry Falwell, thank you for joining us from Lynchburg on a cold night. Thank you Reverend Barry Lynn as well.

FALWELL: God bless you all.

BEGALA: God bless you all? In a little bit, one of our viewers fires back his perfect recipe for getting your own slice of President Bush's new tax cuts. But next, a new group wants to replace the theme song on the TV show "Friends." Their demo tape is our picture of the day. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: It was all smiles and harmony the other night, when the six Democratic presidential candidates got together for their first photo opportunity. But after they finished mugging for the cameras, the presidential wannabes also made a trip into the recording studio.

The result? Courtesy of the Internet Web site Patchy Fog Productions, is our picture of the day. Sing along, if you want to.

(MUSIC)

BEGALA: It's a lovely skirt that Howard Dean is wearing in that. Of course, President Bush campaigned they have their own theme song. It's that Beatles' old hit, "Just Give Me Money, That's What I Want." You remember that one?

NOVAK: Not funny, Paul. Not funny.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: You bombed on that one.

BEGALA: Next, one of our viewers has a little bomb for Bob Novak and his favorite word. We will let you know what that is in "Fireback" coming up next.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now for "Fireback." I hope you are locked and loaded. According to the e-mail you certainly are.

We'll start with K. Gibson of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, who writes, "Paul, my wife made a cake so rich it would be in line to get a Bush tax cut." I like that. It's the Novak case, I guess.

NOVAK: It's nice to know there are still a few Democrats left in South Carolina. Not many, though.

The next one is from Bob Rumsfeld of Eastern, Pennsylvania. He says, "What do you get when you clone on a liberal and a talk show host? Answer: Begala Interruptus. It appears to me the only way Begala can make his point is by constantly interrupting everyone on the show. How can you take it night after night? My wife and I are loyal CROSSFIRE viewers, but enough is enough."

NOVAK: Bob, you have to be a little sympathetic to Paul. He's not a bad fella. He just can't stand hearing the truth and he has to interrupt you.

BEGALA: No, it's so difficult to always be correct all of the time. And I feel the obligation to correct my friend Mr. Novak, and he always wrong. And so I have to try to help him out.

Debbie Leancini (ph) from (UNINTELLIGIBLE), California, writes, "Bob, I have to laugh when I hear you say you're tired of all the Bush bashing from Paul and James. Now you know how Democrats felt for eight years while Republicans bashed Clinton constantly. It seems to me you Republicans can dish it out but you can't take it."

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK : I think you can be an honest person. I don't know how good your memory is, but I think you will agree that in eight difficult years for me of the Clinton administration I was not a Clinton basher.

BEGALA: Well you weren't a Clinton hater, but I think you were very critical of our president.

NOVAK: I wasn't a basher. I never did the things and said the things about our president that you say about this president with less justification.

BEGALA: Because Clinton was stupid. That's why. You can't say he was stupid, but you might say he's a bad husband.

NOVAK: You proved my point, Paul, and you make yourself look worse.

Dennis of Sunriver, Oregon said, "Mr. Novak's overuse of the word "demagoguery," which he uses to label any statement that differs from his opinion, is irritating, disingenuous and boring. Please assist him in expanding his vocabulary."

Thank you very much, Dennis. But you know what you are, little Dennis? You're a demagogue.

BEGALA: Congressman Nick Lampson is here from Texas. A great Texas Democrat from Congress. Thank you for joining us, Congressman.

(APPLAUSE)

REP. NICK LAMPSON (D), TEXAS: You are very welcome. Thank you.

BEGALA: Good to see you.

LAMPSON: Well, I'm Congressman Nick Lampson from Beaumont, Texas. And Bob, I have a question for you about the policy on Iraq. In light of the fact that this is a policy that shouldn't be about George Bush but should be about my kids and my grandkids, and in light of the current economic and future economic policy that we seem to be living with right now, how and when are we going to pay for this?

NOVAK: Well you know, Congressman, like most Democrats, you are very short sighted and have very little vision. This isn't a question of how we pay for it. We can pay for anything. The question is whether we should do it.

The question is whether we should unprovoked attack another country with a preemptive strike. That's what worries me.

LAMPSON: And should we not also just do some of the other things that so many of the citizens across this country are demanding from our government? Help with health insurance. And help with...

NOVAK: Well, the losers in this society always demand a lot of things. You appeal to the losers, and you end up like Albania.

BEGALA: Well, somebody has to appeal to the losers. I guess Bob is doing it for all of us, Congressman. Thank you very much, Nick Lampson, for that question there.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: The truth is, you know, any kind of a decent society would do something about healthcare, and I think we ought to. And the congressman makes a very good point.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala.

NOVAK: I think we've fought that fight before, didn't we?

BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala, once again. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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