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CNN Crossfire
Bush Grows Impatient on Iraq Issue; Heidi Fleiss Spills it All
Aired February 18, 2003 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the left Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: getting impatient with Saddam Hussein.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Another, another, another last chance. He knows my feelings.
ANNOUNCER: Getting impatient with the United Nations.
BUSH: We don't need a second resolution.
ANNOUNCER: And getting impatient with the voices of dissent.
BUSH: Evidently some of the world don't view Saddam Hussein as a risk to peace. I respectfully disagree.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, the politics of impatience.
She did the crime, she's done her time. Now the Hollywood Madam is throwing the book at us.
Plus a performance an Oscar wouldn't dare overlook. Would he?
Tonight on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to cold, snowy Washington. The weather outside is frightful but the CROSSFIRE inside will be delightful. Tonight, we'll be talking with the Hollywood Madam, Heidi Fleiss.
We'll also debate whose patience runs out faster, President Bush's with the rest of the world or the American's people with the Bush administration?
But you don't have to wait longer for the best political briefing on television. Here comes "Our CROSSFIRE Political Alert." I guess that when millions of people are protesting against you, you get touchy. At any rate, President Bush took aim at anti-war protesters, the United Nations and generally anyone who dare questions his Iraq policy or talks about giving Saddam Hussein another chance to avoid war. Here's a little sample.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Another, another, another last chance. He knows my feelings and that is he needs to disarm completely, totally disarm. Listen, he's a fellow that likes to buy time, but it through deception and delay. He believes time is on his side. After all, he was quoted in an Egyptian newspaper as saying all he's to do is stall and defy the world. And you know, coalitions will fall apart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Never mind that the U.S. economy is falling apart, that the U.N. is falling apart, that NATO alliance is fallen apart, that North Korea may withdraw from the Korean War armistice or that John Ashcroft has shredded the Constitution. We can all rest assured that President Bush is focused on Saddam Hussein.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Actually, the point that Bush made is sort of undebatable. He has had chance after chance at disarming, he clearly isn't serious about it and clearly isn't going to unless forced.
CARVILLE: He's a wretched man. I couldn't agree more.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... miles, they go 105 miles. And I think we ought to start a war over the 12 miles or whatever it is.
CARLSON: I have no idea what you're talking about, but we'll get to that later.
The relentless European campaign of anti-Americanism now has an American spokesman, former President Jimmy Carter. Carter was recently used as a tool by the Nobel Prize Peace Committee to bash the U.S. Tells this morning's "London Daily Mirror" that much about the United States is, quote, "very embarrassing." The most embarrassing of all, Carter says, the Bush administration's campaign against poor, misunderstood Saddam Hussein.
"Sure, Saddam has chemical and biological weapon," Carter admits, "but he would never actually use them. That would be mean."
Going to war with Iraq would also be mean, worse than that, immoral because as Carter explains, quote, "War is evil." Is that right? The war against the Nazis was evil, Israel's war of independence was evil, America's current war against al Qaeda is evil. That's Jimmy Carter's view apparently. If you say thanks for nothing else today, be grateful that he's not still president. CARVILLE: Well, now we're attacked the Canadians, we've attacked the French, we've attacked the Nobel Prize, we've attacked the Koreans. Is there anybody left in the world? .
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Look, I attack Ken Starr because he's a wretched man.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: President Bush is's little tantrum came during the story again of a new chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. It's about time we replaced Harvey Pitt who never should have been appointed in the first place. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) been hanging around the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) chairman despite the fact that he resigned nearly four months ago.
The new chairman is William Donaldson, in his own investment bank of Donaldson Lufkin and Jenrette. He used to be a chairman and CEO. Let's hope the man from DLJ will put some (UNINTELLIGIBLE) back in the SEC and not just be another fox guarding the chicken coop.
CARLSON: OK, so not only are you still beating up on Ken Starr a half a decade after the fact, you are beating up Harvey Pitt. You need new enemies, James.
CARVILLE: Why shouldn't I? The guy, he's ruined the SEC. What the hell you want me to do? He won't leave.
CARLSON: I think it's a great campaign slogan. Down with Harvey Pitt. He's already gone, but he's bad.
CARVILLE: Meanwhile, you beat up on George McGovern, who is certainly current.
CARLSON: I like George McGovern. It would be mean, it would be, speaking of George McGovern, it would be mean to say that every light- weight, long-shot and serial loser is U.S. politics is now seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, but unfortunately it would also be true.
Left-wing Ohio congressman and outspoken dove Dennis Kucinich is the latest entrant into the 2004 field. He promises to be, quote, "a people who will impose universal health care, repeal NAFTA, raise taxes. At least he has an agenda, skewed as it may be.
The only reasons, by contrast, former Senator Carol Moseley-Braun of Illinois is running are to take votes away from the Reverend Al Sharpton and to speak at a campaign rally that attacks more that one voter. So far she hasn't done either.
Waiting in the wings are former Senator Gary Hart, retired General Wesley Clark and possibly Senators Bob Graham of Florida and Chris Dodd of Connecticut. None of them is likely to win, but maybe all of them together, as a group, if they try as hard as they can, maybe, perhaps, per chance, possibly can help the Democratic Party begin to figure out what if anything, it stands for, but I doubt it.
CARVILLE: What makes Tucker Carlson a bigger winner than John Kerry? You have a Bronze Star or Silver Star? You have that kind of (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? What makes you a bigger winner than Joe Lieberman?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What makes you a bigger -- what makes you a bigger winner than Dick Gephardt? What makes you a bigger winner -- how do you sit here and call John Kerry and Joe Lieberman and Dick Gephardt and John Edwards a pack of losers?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... that kind of arrogance that causes you to come on here and attack people like John Kerry...
CARLSON: That is the single longest...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's the longest non sequitur I think you've ever uttered.
CARVILLE: Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly is a self-proclaimed straight talker. An enemy of spinning, lying, equivocating and pathetic excuse making. He holds himself out to be the foremost critic of any kind of double speak.
Well, "The Washington" report -- "The Washington Post" reports an example of just what a straight shooter O'Reilly is. He is, quote, "taken some heat for referring to Mexican smugglers as `wetbacks,' a term Many Mexican-Americans consider offensive."
His excuse was he was fumbling around for the word "coyote" which makes sense because wetback is the first word one thinks of when one is meaning to say coyote. Thank God O'Reilly's explained himself in a matter we can all understand. Fair and balanced? You decide.
CARLSON: Actually I feel for him, James. Just a second ago I said, "Bring me a cup of coffee," but instead of coffee I said "cheese-eating surrender monkey."
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And you are not -- we're in the spin zone here. This is actually the -- we like spin zone, and we like (UNINTELLIGIBLE), back-biting, sniping. What else?
CARLSON: As long as I can understand it, I'm for it, yes.
As the world moves toward war, Democrats remain tightly focused on the one issue that matters most to liberals, what you eat for lunch. The New York State Democratic Assemblyman Felix Ortiz has begun a legal crusade against McDonald's and other fast food outlets that he says, quote, "target children with advertising and toy give- aways."
In Maine, Democratic lawmakers have unveiled a draconian plan to control unhealthy snacking in their state. Legislation would make it illegal to sell soda or junk food in school vending machines. We are not making this up, by the way.
What do liberals consider acceptable snacks, you ask? Well, according to Democrats, quote, "items that do not contain more than 35 percent sugar or 8 grams of fat per serving," not including fruit juice, which though sugary is fashionable and therefore allowed.
And there you have it. They have no plan for fixing the economy. They have no idea how to disarm Saddam Hussein or even whether he should be disarmed. But leaders of the Democratic Party do know one thing: you're too fat. And why don't they mind their own business and stay out of my lunch and out of my children's lunch? And just stop telling people what to do?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll be glad to answer that question. Number one is they have a specific 10-point proposal (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which is worse than this disastrous economy under the Bush administration.
The second thing is is that you're right. They tell you all of the time you can't drive past 70, you wear a seat belt, you have an air bag. And by the way, many schools out there, I think there's plenty things that schools need other than vending machines selling junk food.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They don't have cigarette machines for fifth graders.
CARLSON: Leave me alone!
CARVILLE: Do you want to have cigarette machines for fifth graders? That's fine. That's your American where we have cigarette machines for children? Not my America, thank you. Not mine.
CARLSON: Your America is a nanny state that badgers people. Don't do this, don't smoke!
CARVILLE: I don't think people underage people -- it ought to be legal for them to drink. Is that a nanny state? I don't think 11- year-olds ought to drive. Is that a nanny state?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Millions of people took to the streets last weekend, most for lack of anything better to do. Next we'll debate President Bush's response on the protests against his Iraq policy.
Later, the woman with the most feared little black book in the 1990s has just written a big black book. We'll ask Heidi Fleiss about pandering. Plus a sneak preview of James Carville's star turn in a brand new movie. You won't want to miss it, you can't afford to miss it. It's shocking. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Well, the president said today he won't be deterred by global protesting against a possible war with Iraq, but he added a touch of war remains my last choice. Actually, it seems more like his only choice.
First in the CROSSFIRE tonight, Democratic strategist former Congressman Tony Coelho, along with Republican strategist and former Congresswoman Susan Molinari.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Tony, you often hear Democrats -- I heard James Carville say this earlier today on a show we did, that the president has lost the P.R. battle against Saddam Hussein and the whole world is against us. To put it in perspective, that all of Europe is against us.
There are 20 European countries that have signed on to the American plan against Iraq and only 10 that oppose it. Twice as many countries are our side than are against us. How is this a failure of public relations?
TONY COEHLO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, it's pretty obvious, when you look at the different countries, Tucker. You argue this rather conveniently when there are people on one side more than the other side. It's pretty obvious that a large number, an overwhelming number of people in Europe are concerned about what the president is doing.
But let me tell you what the problem is. The problem isn't Iraq. The problem is that for two years, we've had cowboy diplomacy. We have not had a situation where this president, this administration has worked with European leaders, has worked with other people throughout the country.
We threw away the Kyoto treaty, we threw away the World Court, we threw away other international agreement. We didn't care. We didn't talk. All of a sudden now when we need other people they aren't there. And the most important thing for this administration was to be un-Clinton, was not to talk to people.
CARLSON: OK. Wait a minute. Before we go into the psychobabble....
COEHLO: And all of this type of stuff --- and you know what? It's coming back to haunts us.
CARLSON: Wait. Wait. But Tony, before we get into questions and motives which, I think you'll agree, we can't know and the idea that the world court is somehow a good idea in anyone's mind... COEHLO: Nobody said any of these were good accords, but you could at least discuss them. You could at least be serious about them.
CARLSON: Then answer this. This president took his case against Iraq to the United Nations immediately; 1441 was passed unanimously, OK? So where -- I don't -- where's this coming from that the president has...
(CROSSTALK)
COEHLO: First off, he didn't take it immediately. He took it after tremendous amount of pressure from the Congress and from others. That's why he went there. He didn't go there on his own. So let's be honest about it.
CARLSON: On his own? What are you talking about?
COEHLO: He basically was forced to do it by public opinion and by Congressional leaders, Democrats and Republicans, I might add.
CARLSON: So his heart wasn't pure? That's not good enough?
COEHLO: Oh, I don't know if his heart was pure, but he didn't do it immediately, Tucker, as you imply.
SUSAN MOLINARI, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: The United Nations has had a spotty record, at best and everyone around this table must admit that part of the failure of Bush 41 was in not taking out Saddam Hussein because he wanted to placate those same people at the United Nations that we're saying that Bush now should be listening to.
And let me just say one more thing and I'll let you get in. When we talk about the countries that we talk about. You we have Albania, you have Croatia, you have Macedonia, you have Slovakia, Slovenia. These are countries that know what despots are all about.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The Russians know nothing about despotism. They're completely -- our Germany...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If we go, you know, if we want to argue whether or not Germany or Russia have any experience with totalitarianism, we can do that, but let's argue what we can argue -- is that this administration, is obviously -- the economy -- it has no leadership in the economy, the environment, healthcare or anything like that.
My question is I'm not going to go to domestic thing -- how do you lose a P.R. war with Saddam Hussein? I mean, how could you be so inept that this lying thug dope addict serial killer is beating the head out of us in the court of world opinion. How could you be that inept?
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: I certainly don't think that's true and I think if we went back to the beginning of Hitler, to the beginning of Stalin and to the beginning of Milosevic, world opinion said let's not step in. Let's give people the chance, let's play down the clock.
So there is precedent for people like Saddam Hussein, talking to people who say, Let's not engage in a war. Let's do everything we possibly can to avoid a war.
It's his leadership....
CARVILLE: Why is this administration so inept that it is letting this clown beat the living tar out of them in the court of world opinion?
MOLINARI: Because the people who sit around the court of world opinion obviously have forgotten what leadership and courage is all about and George Bush is showing it, as is Tony Blair and some other very important nations.
CARLSON: Are you listening to this, Tony? The tone, the implication of everything that James has said, is it is the fault of the United States that the rest of the western Europe, or parts of western Europe aren't on our side.
Nobody is acknowledging here that there are domestic politics in, say, France. There's deep anti-Americanism in France as in Germany. And so to pretend it's all the fault of the president is not only unreasonable, it's untrue.
COEHLO: No, I think -- I don't know what James is saying...
CARLSON: I don't either.
COEHLO: It's his spot to stay say it.
But I'm going to tell you what's going on here. What's going on here, is it's coming back to roost. For two years -- for two years we've ignored everybody else in the world.
You get Rumsfeld who makes these idiotic comments about old Europe and new Europe. Dumb, stupid comments. Doesn't make any sense, but it's arrogant, it's cowboyish, it is not what war and policy is all about and that what we need to be doing is working with our allies, bring our allies home.
We're the most powerful nation on this Earth. We have an obligation to talk to other people and to reach out to others.
MOLINARI: We have been to the United Nations on several occasions not the least of which was the last time Colin Powell, you know, presented several hour explanation presentation which everybody said was magnificent in pointing out what a charlatan Saddam Hussein is.
CARLSON: Tony, maybe you can explain this to me.
Cliff May was on our show last night and he pointed out that in all of the approaches he saw, he didn't see a single sign calling on Saddam Hussein to say release the political prisoners he holds, to disarm, even attacking Saddam Hussein. Why is that?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That isn't the issue. You Republicans tried to make it between Bush and Saddam. That's your problem. That's why you're -- that's why you're losing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The problem is is that this administration is so inept it can't even beat a thug at a P.R. war. That's the real problem here.
CARLSON: As if P.R. is the most important thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, well, I hope you all follow me when I go to a commercial break.
Next, the riddle the Democratic party has yet to solve. How do you run against a popular war time president?
Later, she still keeps her invitation to President Clinton's inauguration in her scrapbook. We'll ask Heidi Fleiss about that book.
And then, the movie all of America will be lining up to see. Is it because of James Carville? Shudder, shudder. We'll show you.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: President Bush seems to be counting on a war on terrorism and possibly a war with Iraq to distract everyone attention from the terrible job he is doing running the country. In reality, he has left Democratic presidential candidate with so many lines to attack, it's hard to pick off where to begin. In the CROSSFIRE, Republican strategist and former Congresswoman Susan Molinari, along with Democratic strategist and former Congressman Tony Coelho.
CARLSON: Tony, among the many people considering a run for the Democratic nomination is former senator Gary Hart, a serious person. I'm not going to attack him on the basis of what happened (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but I do want you to respond to this. He's against the war in Iraq and this is one of the questions he raised in his speech last week in San Francisco.
"We must not let our role in the world be dictated by Americans who too often find it hard to distinguish their loyalties to their original homelands from their loyalties to America and it's national interests."
What Americans and disloyal Americans is he talking about?
COELHO: I don't know, nor do I care.
CARLSON: I'll tell you what difference it makes. This is, within your party, one of the best respected thinkers of foreign policy Democrats have.
COELHO: Is it.
CARLSON: Yes, it is. And he's articulating...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I think so. And I think many Democrats think so, and he's articulating a point of view I want you to respond to.
You're not going to respond to it?
COELHO: I don't know what he's talking about nor do I care. Because what I think is going on here is that you and a lot of Republicans are trying just to belittle the whole process, you know.
CARLSON: I'm asking you to respond to a specific quote.
COELHO: I'm just not interested. I just don't care.
CARVILLE: When I ran campaigns I was always scared to death. In the Republican party, and Tucker, all of them are dismissive and arrogant that anyone should run against George Bush, that he -- that there will be a coronation in 2004.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I don't understand, what is the difference between the culture of the Republican party that says that we can't lose this election and anybody that runs against is a fool and unpatriotic. And the Democratic party that we always are like, this guy we going to run, we have to take it real seriously. That's Tucker's the entire attitude.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What is the cultural difference between the Republicans and the Democrats? That we don't scared and you run arrogant.
CARLSON: Amen, there you go! I agree with that!
MOLINARI: Sorry. I can't take this seriously.
James, my goodness.
We spend the first part of the show saying that George Bush is losing the war on terrorism against Saddam Hussein and now you're... (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Yes, we are getting slaughtered in the court of world opinion.
MOLINARI: Which George Bush fortunately as president does not care about and just cares about winning the war on terrorism. But now you make these accusations, we Republicans, George Bush and others take this politics of running for president of the United States extremely serious...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You say the opponents that run against us, nobody...
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: You know what? You're right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What is it about the culture of a Republican that says we shouldn't take our opponents seriously enough. And also we take everything seriously. I don't understand it.
MOLINARI: That's a rather broad generalization.
COELHO: We go back to the...
MOLINARI: To who?
COELHO: Former President Bush. At that particular time when he was running to reelection we had no shot, my god, our candidates were awful. You folks were saying that all of the time. Something happened, we got -- then the White House for 8 years by one of those loser candidates. And you know, I think this is the same thing.
MOLINARI: I can't believe we're -- I will say that I'm going to be judgmental in the fact that you want to bring up politics however many years ago as opposed to discussing the Democratic candidates that
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I am just as optimistic about this election coming up in '04 as I was in '92 and I think...
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I think it's fabulous what -- our candidates that are out.
CARLSON: What do you think of Al Sharpton? A lot of Democrats don't take Al Sharpton seriously. We here on CROSSFIRE, we take him seriously.
CARVILLE: I don't. Excuse me, I'm on CROSSFIRE I don't. CARLSON: He should be allowed and will get a prime time speaking role in Boston at the Democratic convention.
COELHO: I don't know. I don't care about that.
CARLSON: You don't care about Al Sharpton as a prime time.
COELHO: You ought to be asking, does Al Sharpton have the right to run for president? You're damn right he does.
CARLSON: That is a stupid question.
COELHO: That is not either.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I'll answer your question. If he credible at the convention, yes, he has a right to, but I don't think...
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: Can I say something here?
You know why you have to take Al Sharpton seriously because we all than when somebody like that who plays way to the left, and let's face it out of the field of eight or nine that are there today you have some substantially liberal Democrats who are coming forward, who are going to force more of your main street political candidates to move to the left.
CARVILLE: You like to talk about Al Sharpton. Well ask me this question, why was David Duke so much more successful than the Republican party. He was a Nominee of governor of the state of Louisiana.
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: No, no. Let's be serious about this. The truth is that if we can have a serious conversation for five minutes on this show tonight, that when someone like Pat Buchanan run, it moved him way to the right to a point where the election in the general electorate was near impossible. And I suggest to you the look of the new Democrats who are coming into the field right now, the liberals, are going to do the same thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: On that point, unfortunately, we are go to have to...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Unfortunately, we have got to go.
Congresswoman Molinari, Tony Coelho, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.
She once pled guilty to pandering and now she's written a book about it. Next in the CROSSFIRE, former Hollywood madam Heidi Fleiss.
And speaking of Hollywood a certain CROSSFIRE host is appearing on the silver screen. No extra points for guess which one, but you'll want to stick around and see him in action, as if you haven't seen enough already.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. Dennis Hastert need look no further than our next guest for advice on how to keep an orderly house. The once notorious Hollywood Madam Heidi Fleiss has written her tell tell-all memoir about one of recent history's most tantalizing sex scandals.
Her book is "Pandering." It's in stores now. And Heidi Fleiss is in the CROSSFIRE. She's in Los Angeles.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I guess I say Madam Fleiss or whatever. But your book is very unique. It looks like a high school or college yearbook almost more than what you would think of as a typical book. Why did you choose this format like this? And if you open it, it's got a lot of pictures and some words. Tell us how you arrived at this decision.
HEIDI FLEISS, AUTHOR, "PANDERING": Well, I think that nowadays most people don't read. I've been an avid reader my whole life and I still am. So I had to take advantage of that. And if you look at magazine subscriptions, the only ones that are up are "Maxim," "Stuff" and "FHM" because their articles are this big.
So I made my book very smart, very visual, very concise. A lot of court transcripts, court documents. That seem to be very popular these days. And people want photos. They want to -- this is a very inside look at another type of lifestyle.
CARLSON: Heidi, I want to put a quote from the book up on the screen and let our viewers judge the wisdom of it.
FLEISS: OK, give it to me.
CARLSON: Here it goes. "When a girl has sex and gets paid for it, most people call it prostitution and think of it as ugly. It's really an act of caring and consideration. It shows that the man cares about getting her bills paid and cares that she has nice things like cars and clothes, things to make the life easier."
I guess my first reaction reading this, I thought, well, you know, after being a madam and going to prison, you think you would have learned more about men. Do you really think men go to prostitutes to express caring and consideration?
FLEISS: Well, you have to take every situation into context. And my business, the way I ran it, you have to remember, I dealt with one percent of the richest men in the entire world. And basically, what I'm trying to say there is prostitution is an ugly word and it does sound degrading and humiliating. And, say if a girl does have sex with a guy and a guy does happen to give her $300, I mean he is helping her out. Even if he gives her $3 million or $3, whatever, you're helping someone out.
CARVILLE: Ms. Fleiss, actually, I've admitted that I did frequent these houses when I was 14. I was taking to Macomb, Mississippi as a kind of rite of initiation there.
FLEISS: You did that?
CARVILLE: And I went to the Stillway (ph) bar in St. Landry Parish, too. And as I remember -- but I can't remember it definitely because somebody else paid for it -- it was like $10. Let's say in Beverly Hills today if someone was at the Peninsula Hotel, what would be the going rate for a top, high quality, call person?
FLEISS: A sexy (UNINTELLIGIBLE) man like you would be free.
CARVILLE: Oh, you're the best. Buy the book. Buy the book. Buy the book. Whatever you do, go buy the book.
FLEISS: It's available everywhere right now.
CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to me, but I love it. I'm serious.
FLEISS: Let me tell you. OK, I was -- I've been out of the business 10 years, but back in my day -- you know I'm not going to do the math right now -- you don't go, say, this one's $500. This is $10,000, this is $5,000. I had a standard rate but I knew people would tip $100,000, sometimes $1 million.
CARVILLE: What was the most you ever got for one night's employment?
FLEISS: On my best day, I made -- I think it was $94,000 in cash. And that's me, just 40 percent.
CARVILLE: Is there any way I can break into this thing?
FLEISS: Hey, that's why I loved it. And on my worst day -- my worst day...
CARLSON: Tell me about your worst day.
FLEISS: ... was $7,000 in cash, and that was only 40 percent.
CARVILLE: Can I ask you just for an estimate. How many guys in your life. Just an estimate.
FLEISS: How many guys have I slept with or did I do business with?
CARVILLE: Slept with. How many guys in your life have you slept with? Just an estimate. You don't have to...
FLEISS: Well I can't find anyone to date me, so...
CARVILLE: Just give us a number.
FLEISS: That I have slept with?
CARVILLE: Right.
FLEISS: Probably three or four.
CARVILLE: Three or four?
FLEISS: I can't a date for the life of me.
CARLSON: Wow. Maybe you need to try another business. In the book, you reproduce an invitation to the Clinton inaugural in 1992.
FLEISS: Oh, now you would love that. I knew it.
CARLSON: Well I was sort of interested. Did you go and were you invited?
FLEISS: I was invited. I don't even remember who sent me the invitation, but I didn't go because I was rather depressed then. I was just arrested, but it was cool, because from my house you would hear Barbra Streisand rehearsing all day.
CARLSON: You've got in the book that one of the people you met in prison was a domestic terrorist member of a Puerto Rican separatist group, who it turned out was pardoned by President Clinton while you were in prison. Did you feel sort of like maybe you should get a pardon, too? Did you expect one?
FLEISS: No. I didn't expect anything like that. And I didn't -- I -- look, I ran an illegal business. I got in trouble. I accept responsibility.
I went and I did my time. It was very hard. It was a women's federal institution.
It was not some club fed. And a lot of cases I thought I might end up there 20 years because it seems like you have to fight for your life in there. And I feel I paid my dues to society.
CARLSON: Well, you're doing that in part by coming on CROSSFIRE. And if you'll just stay right where you are, we'll be right back...
FLEISS: "Pandering."
CARLSON: "Pandering." Well we'll put the book up again in just a minute. Did Princess Diana ever use Heidi Fleiss' services? We'll find out when we come back. One of the many titillating facts we'll bring you.
Then, someone better lock up the Oscar statuettes. CROSSFIRE is going to the movies. Stay tuned for a sneak peak of James Carville's role on the big screen. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. She's been a chess champion, she's been a waitress, she's also run a bordello. She has also voted in every election since she was 18. We're talking with Heidi Fleiss, the author of "Pandering"
CARVILLE: Ms. Fleiss, your book is fascinating the way that you did it. And one of the things you added is a note on the cover that Princess Di wrote to you. And I want to read to you what she said to you.
"Thanks, Heidi, what a babe. He rocked my world." Did you...
FLEISS: Now listen. That is in the book.
CARVILLE: Did you procure the services for somebody, for a gigolo or something here? What's going on?
FLEISS: No, no. You know I didn't deal in the business of men for hire. But when people would say to me, "Heidi, I have this really good looking guy, he wants to work for you," even though I didn't deal in that, I would say, well bring him over, maybe I do, just so I could see what they looked like. But as far as Princess Diana...
CARVILLE: Did you fix her up on a date?
FLEISS: Of course not. How many times...
CARVILLE: What was she talking about? Let me read it to you again. "Thanks, Heidi. What a babe. He rocked my world."
FLEISS: Let me tell you something. Baby, let me explain it to you. How many times have you signed autographs? I sign them all of the time, "My number one client," "My best girl."
CARVILLE: Right. Best wishes. All the best.
FLEISS: Yes. OK, you just get, "All of the best." It's a side of the princess...
CARVILLE: No, no, no. "What a babe. He rocked my world." Who is "he" in this? We just want to know who is the mystery pronoun?
FLEISS: It's a sense of humor. It makes -- that's why she was the most popular princess ever, because she was human.
CARVILLE: I like you, but your answer is as unconvincing as some of Tucker's political philosophies.
FLEISS: I know what you want it to be. I know what you want the answer to be. CARLSON: Heidi, tell me this -- I want to probe your wisdom. You've dealt with a lot of men. Tell me one thing you've learned about men.
FLEISS: They all cheat.
CARLSON: Well, you're coming from a bias point of view.
CARVILLE: Wait a minute. I just want to say one thing. This is Heidi Fleiss. She's on here (ph). She has a new book out, a very unique book called "Pandering."
FLEISS: "Pandering." I have six other titles coming out. I'm a publisher now. I'm no longer the bible of prostitution on the "Ricki Lake Show."
I have six other title coming out in the next two years. And "Pandering" is for everyone. More entertaining than any prostitute.
CARLSON: Well that means six more appearances on CROSSFIRE, Heidi. But first we have a question from our audience -- yes.
CHRIS: Hi. I'm Chris (ph) from Beverly. My parents sent me to college to find a career. And, Ms. Fleiss, I just think it would be a shame to miss this opportunity. Could you briefly outline the pros and cons of being a Hollywood madam?
FLEISS: Well I think that I came about it in a unique time period. And that time period is over. I mean now it's like modems, not madams.
And the world has changed. And a lot of money's different, the way money is spent is differentment, the people are different. I'm so far removed from that lifestyle that I really can't give you an answer except don't do it.
CARLSON: Really? Well tell us quickly what you do now, like apart from writing your six books. You sell underwear? Is that true?
FLEISS: Before I went to prison I had a store called Heidi Wear (ph), and everyone said oh, why are you selling men's boxer shorts? You'll never make a penny. There's Joe Boxer, Calvin Klein. I made a million dollars.
CARVILLE: Speaking of underwear, I have a guy in an orange shirt out here that wants to ask you a question.
ASHLEIGH: Hi. I'm Ashleigh (ph) from California. And I wanted to know if you had any regrets about what you've done? Specifically the effects it's had on your family?
FLEISS: Of course. The pain and the -- it was very unfair to my family. And I feel terrible about it. And dad, I love you, and one day I'll make it up to you.
CARLSON: I wonder, Heidi, if you feel -- I mean you profited from the work of other women, right? Some of whose lives are probably pretty screwed up. Do you feel guilty about that?
FLEISS: OK. Now that is where I think, you know, people think of it -- and you have to take it into context -- that women were being taken advantage of, exploited. Not in my case. In my case, I gave them opportunity so they were not exploited. So they were not taken advantage of. They could go to college -- excuse me?
CARLSON: Did you offer health insurance is the question?
FLEISS: Come on. I dealt with one percent of the richest people in the world. These are the most -- it's all in the book. The transcripts (UNINTELLIGIBLE), clean, smooth, you get what you paid for.
CARVILLE: Ms. Fleiss, I'm going to give you about 15 seconds. Tell America and tell our audience here why they should buy the book.
FLEISS: Heidifleiss.com, order "Pandering." It's the best entertainment you can possibly get for $50. It's very controversial, it's a beautiful book. And even if you don't like me, you'll like the book.
CARVILLE: All right. Well, I like you.
CARLSON: OK. Heidi Fleiss in Los Angeles, thank you very much. Good luck with the underwear.
One of our viewers has noticed a similarity between Washington and a far frozen land to the North. Let them snicker and fire back in a moment.
But first James Carville goes to the movies. James Carville in the moves. We'll show you. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Coming soon to a theater near you a comedy called "Old School," in which three men try to recapture the fun and excitement of their college days. It stars "Saturday Night Live" alumnus Will Farrell and features a guest appearance by our own James Carville. So get out the Oscars and your handkerchiefs and watch it if you dare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OLD SCHOOL")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, the captain of the university debate team had a scheduling conflict. Yeah. So we had to bring someone else in to fill in for this event. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, the co-host of CNN's CROSSFIRE, famed political consultant, the Ragin' Cajun, Mr. James Carville.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Thank you. Thank you, Dean Cricket (ph). It's an honor and pleasure to be here, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Topic number one: What is your position on the role of government in supporting innovation in the field of biotechnology?
CARVILLE: Well, Dean, I'm glad that you asked that question...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, I'd like to jump in and take that one, Jimmy, if you don't mind.
CARVILLE: Have at it, boss.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recent research has shown that empirical evidence for globalization of corporate innovation is very limited. And as a corollary, the market for technology is shrinking. As a world leader, it's important for America to provide systematic research grants for our scientists.
I believe strongly there will always be a need for us to have a well articulated innovation policy with emphasis on human resource development. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did that come from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened? I blacked out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well that was interesting. Thank you very much. And your rebuttal, Mr. Carville?
CARVILLE: We have no response. That was perfect.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the way you do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP, "OLD SCHOOL")
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, Jimmy, I like that. We have no response. That was perfect.
CARVILLE: Well, you know, it's Hollywood, man. When you're in showbiz you have to be able to act the part. And you know, it was very nice.
CARLSON: Well I'd like to make a prediction if I could. I predict this time next year, this will be the photograph on the front page of "The Washington Post."
CARVILLE: We are expecting that. Actually, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the director, a great guy, and his stop guy, Tom Rudnick (ph), who is my man in Hollywood, they're going to nominate me and I have a lot of people behind me. CARLSON: Really. It has that sort of an art film feel.
CARVILLE: Yes it does. It's kind of an art house thing. Exactly. It's the kind of thing that the academy, they really dig this kind of thing.
CARLSON: Yes. Kind of a French undertone almost.
CARVILLE: Absolutely.
CARLSON: I think I know what you mean.
CARVILLE: Film noire.
CARLSON: Film noire? OK.
Stand by. Speaking of the French, for more French bashing, ribit, ribit, our viewers fire back. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Well, we have a little less than a year to wait before I'm nominated for my Academy Award. But we only have a few seconds to wait before we go to our favorite part of the show, "Fireback," where you get a chance to tell us what you think.
And the first one is, "James Carville, keep on rocking. You never know what's going to come out of his mouth, but he always has the strength of his convictions. Keep speaking on." -- Mary O'Sullivan, Yonkers, New York.
Great first name, Ms. O'Sullivan, and great thoughts. Thank you very much.
CARLSON: Speaking out. Yes, don't be so shy, James. Bob Froese of Peachland, British Columbia in a country called Canada, writes, "You get a little snow and you find out who the real wimps are, eh? Need some help operating your snow shovel?
The Canadians, they can never resist opportunity to kind of grind it in, you know what I mean?
CARVILLE: I'll tell you one thing (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Tucker.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: "The title of Heidi's new book, 'Pandering,' would be a great title for a book about Dubya's first year as president." Gary -- actually, no, Heidi panders to everyone. W only panders to rich and poerful people.
CARLSON: That's actually...
CARVILLE: No one will ever accuse him of pandering to people who are struggling.
CARLSON: No. Actually, I think he's done a lot of things against his own political (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Good for him.
Eric Smith of Los Angeles writes, "In considering France and its actions, I think it's useful to remember the words of a great American philosopher, Frank Zappa. 'There is no hell. There is only France."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, as I've said before, James, if Frank Zappa said it, I believe it.
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you what, I'll be going back to Paris and enjoying it.
CARLSON: I actually like being in France. It's just the only problem are the French, they live there, too.
CARVILLE: Well, they've always been good to me.
CARLSON: Yes? A question from our audience.
ADAM: I have a question for Mr. Carville. I'm Adam (ph) from Los Alamos, New Mexico. Last week I caught a sneak preview of "Old School," and I was really shocked to see you defeated by Will Farrell in the debate.
CARVILLE: It was slaughter.
ADAM: And it just surprises me, because you're a proud Democrat. And how could you let the person who played George W on SNL for so long beat you?
CARVILLE: One word: money. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. Thanks. Appreciate it.
JAMES: Hi. I'm James (ph) from Rhode Island. To what extent can we rely on British support for war in Iraq given the lack of support that Tony Blair is receiving from his own citizens right now?
CARLSON: I think we can count on it completely. I mean, the European Union, by the way -- and this was not noticed on our show, unfortunately -- just voted to condemn Saddam Hussein and remind him that he has to face disarm or face the consequences. But Tony Blair, in the face of incredible political adversity, has stayed to what he originally said, and good for him. He's a courageous leader.
CARVILLE: Yes. I think I have great respect for the prime minister. Unfortunately, our president is so inept at convincing anybody as to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of our cause, we now have Britain, which is our strongest ally, where more people think the United States is a danger to world peace than -- let me finish -- than either North Korea or Iraq.
CARLSON: That's so stupid. CARVILLE: But that's the ineptitude of this administration.
CARLSON: Shouldn't Tony Blair be convincing them? Come on.
CARVILLE: It's probably going to cause Tony Blair irreparable political harm because they operate foreign policy like a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: So Bush is responsible for Tony Blair's inability to convince his people.
CARVILLE: Right. Because he's leading the war.
CARLSON: You figure that out, America. You tell me if that makes sense.
CARVILLE: You understand, America, that we can't convince anybody of anything.
CARLSON: OK. I'm going to have to cut off your rambling to go to another question -- yes.
MATT SHODENHOLM: My name is Matt Shodenholm (ph) from Rochester Hills, Michigan. In light of the recent emphasis on duct tape and the terrorist scheme broadcast endlessly on our cable news networks, isn't President Bush perfectly content with keeping the American people on a constant state of almost irrational fear in order to help himself politically?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No. I don't think that's a fair thing to say at all. I mean the idea that the president is whipping the country into a frenzy for his own political advantages doesn't bear scrutiny. If anything, he's pursuing a war in Iraq against his own political advantage. The downfalls are much greater, I think, than the possible windfalls.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I would say this about this president, is that he wants to go to war with Iraq in the worst possible way. And so far as I can see, he's succeeding.
CARLSON: No. Because he believes it's the right thing to do regardless of...
CARVILLE: It's like cutting taxes and running a deficit. Do you think he really thinks high deficits are the right thing to do?
From the left, I'm James Carville. Goodnight for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 18, 2003 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the left Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: getting impatient with Saddam Hussein.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Another, another, another last chance. He knows my feelings.
ANNOUNCER: Getting impatient with the United Nations.
BUSH: We don't need a second resolution.
ANNOUNCER: And getting impatient with the voices of dissent.
BUSH: Evidently some of the world don't view Saddam Hussein as a risk to peace. I respectfully disagree.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, the politics of impatience.
She did the crime, she's done her time. Now the Hollywood Madam is throwing the book at us.
Plus a performance an Oscar wouldn't dare overlook. Would he?
Tonight on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to cold, snowy Washington. The weather outside is frightful but the CROSSFIRE inside will be delightful. Tonight, we'll be talking with the Hollywood Madam, Heidi Fleiss.
We'll also debate whose patience runs out faster, President Bush's with the rest of the world or the American's people with the Bush administration?
But you don't have to wait longer for the best political briefing on television. Here comes "Our CROSSFIRE Political Alert." I guess that when millions of people are protesting against you, you get touchy. At any rate, President Bush took aim at anti-war protesters, the United Nations and generally anyone who dare questions his Iraq policy or talks about giving Saddam Hussein another chance to avoid war. Here's a little sample.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Another, another, another last chance. He knows my feelings and that is he needs to disarm completely, totally disarm. Listen, he's a fellow that likes to buy time, but it through deception and delay. He believes time is on his side. After all, he was quoted in an Egyptian newspaper as saying all he's to do is stall and defy the world. And you know, coalitions will fall apart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Never mind that the U.S. economy is falling apart, that the U.N. is falling apart, that NATO alliance is fallen apart, that North Korea may withdraw from the Korean War armistice or that John Ashcroft has shredded the Constitution. We can all rest assured that President Bush is focused on Saddam Hussein.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Actually, the point that Bush made is sort of undebatable. He has had chance after chance at disarming, he clearly isn't serious about it and clearly isn't going to unless forced.
CARVILLE: He's a wretched man. I couldn't agree more.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... miles, they go 105 miles. And I think we ought to start a war over the 12 miles or whatever it is.
CARLSON: I have no idea what you're talking about, but we'll get to that later.
The relentless European campaign of anti-Americanism now has an American spokesman, former President Jimmy Carter. Carter was recently used as a tool by the Nobel Prize Peace Committee to bash the U.S. Tells this morning's "London Daily Mirror" that much about the United States is, quote, "very embarrassing." The most embarrassing of all, Carter says, the Bush administration's campaign against poor, misunderstood Saddam Hussein.
"Sure, Saddam has chemical and biological weapon," Carter admits, "but he would never actually use them. That would be mean."
Going to war with Iraq would also be mean, worse than that, immoral because as Carter explains, quote, "War is evil." Is that right? The war against the Nazis was evil, Israel's war of independence was evil, America's current war against al Qaeda is evil. That's Jimmy Carter's view apparently. If you say thanks for nothing else today, be grateful that he's not still president. CARVILLE: Well, now we're attacked the Canadians, we've attacked the French, we've attacked the Nobel Prize, we've attacked the Koreans. Is there anybody left in the world? .
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Look, I attack Ken Starr because he's a wretched man.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: President Bush is's little tantrum came during the story again of a new chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. It's about time we replaced Harvey Pitt who never should have been appointed in the first place. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) been hanging around the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) chairman despite the fact that he resigned nearly four months ago.
The new chairman is William Donaldson, in his own investment bank of Donaldson Lufkin and Jenrette. He used to be a chairman and CEO. Let's hope the man from DLJ will put some (UNINTELLIGIBLE) back in the SEC and not just be another fox guarding the chicken coop.
CARLSON: OK, so not only are you still beating up on Ken Starr a half a decade after the fact, you are beating up Harvey Pitt. You need new enemies, James.
CARVILLE: Why shouldn't I? The guy, he's ruined the SEC. What the hell you want me to do? He won't leave.
CARLSON: I think it's a great campaign slogan. Down with Harvey Pitt. He's already gone, but he's bad.
CARVILLE: Meanwhile, you beat up on George McGovern, who is certainly current.
CARLSON: I like George McGovern. It would be mean, it would be, speaking of George McGovern, it would be mean to say that every light- weight, long-shot and serial loser is U.S. politics is now seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, but unfortunately it would also be true.
Left-wing Ohio congressman and outspoken dove Dennis Kucinich is the latest entrant into the 2004 field. He promises to be, quote, "a people who will impose universal health care, repeal NAFTA, raise taxes. At least he has an agenda, skewed as it may be.
The only reasons, by contrast, former Senator Carol Moseley-Braun of Illinois is running are to take votes away from the Reverend Al Sharpton and to speak at a campaign rally that attacks more that one voter. So far she hasn't done either.
Waiting in the wings are former Senator Gary Hart, retired General Wesley Clark and possibly Senators Bob Graham of Florida and Chris Dodd of Connecticut. None of them is likely to win, but maybe all of them together, as a group, if they try as hard as they can, maybe, perhaps, per chance, possibly can help the Democratic Party begin to figure out what if anything, it stands for, but I doubt it.
CARVILLE: What makes Tucker Carlson a bigger winner than John Kerry? You have a Bronze Star or Silver Star? You have that kind of (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? What makes you a bigger winner than Joe Lieberman?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What makes you a bigger -- what makes you a bigger winner than Dick Gephardt? What makes you a bigger winner -- how do you sit here and call John Kerry and Joe Lieberman and Dick Gephardt and John Edwards a pack of losers?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... that kind of arrogance that causes you to come on here and attack people like John Kerry...
CARLSON: That is the single longest...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's the longest non sequitur I think you've ever uttered.
CARVILLE: Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly is a self-proclaimed straight talker. An enemy of spinning, lying, equivocating and pathetic excuse making. He holds himself out to be the foremost critic of any kind of double speak.
Well, "The Washington" report -- "The Washington Post" reports an example of just what a straight shooter O'Reilly is. He is, quote, "taken some heat for referring to Mexican smugglers as `wetbacks,' a term Many Mexican-Americans consider offensive."
His excuse was he was fumbling around for the word "coyote" which makes sense because wetback is the first word one thinks of when one is meaning to say coyote. Thank God O'Reilly's explained himself in a matter we can all understand. Fair and balanced? You decide.
CARLSON: Actually I feel for him, James. Just a second ago I said, "Bring me a cup of coffee," but instead of coffee I said "cheese-eating surrender monkey."
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And you are not -- we're in the spin zone here. This is actually the -- we like spin zone, and we like (UNINTELLIGIBLE), back-biting, sniping. What else?
CARLSON: As long as I can understand it, I'm for it, yes.
As the world moves toward war, Democrats remain tightly focused on the one issue that matters most to liberals, what you eat for lunch. The New York State Democratic Assemblyman Felix Ortiz has begun a legal crusade against McDonald's and other fast food outlets that he says, quote, "target children with advertising and toy give- aways."
In Maine, Democratic lawmakers have unveiled a draconian plan to control unhealthy snacking in their state. Legislation would make it illegal to sell soda or junk food in school vending machines. We are not making this up, by the way.
What do liberals consider acceptable snacks, you ask? Well, according to Democrats, quote, "items that do not contain more than 35 percent sugar or 8 grams of fat per serving," not including fruit juice, which though sugary is fashionable and therefore allowed.
And there you have it. They have no plan for fixing the economy. They have no idea how to disarm Saddam Hussein or even whether he should be disarmed. But leaders of the Democratic Party do know one thing: you're too fat. And why don't they mind their own business and stay out of my lunch and out of my children's lunch? And just stop telling people what to do?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll be glad to answer that question. Number one is they have a specific 10-point proposal (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which is worse than this disastrous economy under the Bush administration.
The second thing is is that you're right. They tell you all of the time you can't drive past 70, you wear a seat belt, you have an air bag. And by the way, many schools out there, I think there's plenty things that schools need other than vending machines selling junk food.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They don't have cigarette machines for fifth graders.
CARLSON: Leave me alone!
CARVILLE: Do you want to have cigarette machines for fifth graders? That's fine. That's your American where we have cigarette machines for children? Not my America, thank you. Not mine.
CARLSON: Your America is a nanny state that badgers people. Don't do this, don't smoke!
CARVILLE: I don't think people underage people -- it ought to be legal for them to drink. Is that a nanny state? I don't think 11- year-olds ought to drive. Is that a nanny state?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Millions of people took to the streets last weekend, most for lack of anything better to do. Next we'll debate President Bush's response on the protests against his Iraq policy.
Later, the woman with the most feared little black book in the 1990s has just written a big black book. We'll ask Heidi Fleiss about pandering. Plus a sneak preview of James Carville's star turn in a brand new movie. You won't want to miss it, you can't afford to miss it. It's shocking. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Well, the president said today he won't be deterred by global protesting against a possible war with Iraq, but he added a touch of war remains my last choice. Actually, it seems more like his only choice.
First in the CROSSFIRE tonight, Democratic strategist former Congressman Tony Coelho, along with Republican strategist and former Congresswoman Susan Molinari.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Tony, you often hear Democrats -- I heard James Carville say this earlier today on a show we did, that the president has lost the P.R. battle against Saddam Hussein and the whole world is against us. To put it in perspective, that all of Europe is against us.
There are 20 European countries that have signed on to the American plan against Iraq and only 10 that oppose it. Twice as many countries are our side than are against us. How is this a failure of public relations?
TONY COEHLO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, it's pretty obvious, when you look at the different countries, Tucker. You argue this rather conveniently when there are people on one side more than the other side. It's pretty obvious that a large number, an overwhelming number of people in Europe are concerned about what the president is doing.
But let me tell you what the problem is. The problem isn't Iraq. The problem is that for two years, we've had cowboy diplomacy. We have not had a situation where this president, this administration has worked with European leaders, has worked with other people throughout the country.
We threw away the Kyoto treaty, we threw away the World Court, we threw away other international agreement. We didn't care. We didn't talk. All of a sudden now when we need other people they aren't there. And the most important thing for this administration was to be un-Clinton, was not to talk to people.
CARLSON: OK. Wait a minute. Before we go into the psychobabble....
COEHLO: And all of this type of stuff --- and you know what? It's coming back to haunts us.
CARLSON: Wait. Wait. But Tony, before we get into questions and motives which, I think you'll agree, we can't know and the idea that the world court is somehow a good idea in anyone's mind... COEHLO: Nobody said any of these were good accords, but you could at least discuss them. You could at least be serious about them.
CARLSON: Then answer this. This president took his case against Iraq to the United Nations immediately; 1441 was passed unanimously, OK? So where -- I don't -- where's this coming from that the president has...
(CROSSTALK)
COEHLO: First off, he didn't take it immediately. He took it after tremendous amount of pressure from the Congress and from others. That's why he went there. He didn't go there on his own. So let's be honest about it.
CARLSON: On his own? What are you talking about?
COEHLO: He basically was forced to do it by public opinion and by Congressional leaders, Democrats and Republicans, I might add.
CARLSON: So his heart wasn't pure? That's not good enough?
COEHLO: Oh, I don't know if his heart was pure, but he didn't do it immediately, Tucker, as you imply.
SUSAN MOLINARI, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: The United Nations has had a spotty record, at best and everyone around this table must admit that part of the failure of Bush 41 was in not taking out Saddam Hussein because he wanted to placate those same people at the United Nations that we're saying that Bush now should be listening to.
And let me just say one more thing and I'll let you get in. When we talk about the countries that we talk about. You we have Albania, you have Croatia, you have Macedonia, you have Slovakia, Slovenia. These are countries that know what despots are all about.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The Russians know nothing about despotism. They're completely -- our Germany...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If we go, you know, if we want to argue whether or not Germany or Russia have any experience with totalitarianism, we can do that, but let's argue what we can argue -- is that this administration, is obviously -- the economy -- it has no leadership in the economy, the environment, healthcare or anything like that.
My question is I'm not going to go to domestic thing -- how do you lose a P.R. war with Saddam Hussein? I mean, how could you be so inept that this lying thug dope addict serial killer is beating the head out of us in the court of world opinion. How could you be that inept?
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: I certainly don't think that's true and I think if we went back to the beginning of Hitler, to the beginning of Stalin and to the beginning of Milosevic, world opinion said let's not step in. Let's give people the chance, let's play down the clock.
So there is precedent for people like Saddam Hussein, talking to people who say, Let's not engage in a war. Let's do everything we possibly can to avoid a war.
It's his leadership....
CARVILLE: Why is this administration so inept that it is letting this clown beat the living tar out of them in the court of world opinion?
MOLINARI: Because the people who sit around the court of world opinion obviously have forgotten what leadership and courage is all about and George Bush is showing it, as is Tony Blair and some other very important nations.
CARLSON: Are you listening to this, Tony? The tone, the implication of everything that James has said, is it is the fault of the United States that the rest of the western Europe, or parts of western Europe aren't on our side.
Nobody is acknowledging here that there are domestic politics in, say, France. There's deep anti-Americanism in France as in Germany. And so to pretend it's all the fault of the president is not only unreasonable, it's untrue.
COEHLO: No, I think -- I don't know what James is saying...
CARLSON: I don't either.
COEHLO: It's his spot to stay say it.
But I'm going to tell you what's going on here. What's going on here, is it's coming back to roost. For two years -- for two years we've ignored everybody else in the world.
You get Rumsfeld who makes these idiotic comments about old Europe and new Europe. Dumb, stupid comments. Doesn't make any sense, but it's arrogant, it's cowboyish, it is not what war and policy is all about and that what we need to be doing is working with our allies, bring our allies home.
We're the most powerful nation on this Earth. We have an obligation to talk to other people and to reach out to others.
MOLINARI: We have been to the United Nations on several occasions not the least of which was the last time Colin Powell, you know, presented several hour explanation presentation which everybody said was magnificent in pointing out what a charlatan Saddam Hussein is.
CARLSON: Tony, maybe you can explain this to me.
Cliff May was on our show last night and he pointed out that in all of the approaches he saw, he didn't see a single sign calling on Saddam Hussein to say release the political prisoners he holds, to disarm, even attacking Saddam Hussein. Why is that?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That isn't the issue. You Republicans tried to make it between Bush and Saddam. That's your problem. That's why you're -- that's why you're losing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The problem is is that this administration is so inept it can't even beat a thug at a P.R. war. That's the real problem here.
CARLSON: As if P.R. is the most important thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, well, I hope you all follow me when I go to a commercial break.
Next, the riddle the Democratic party has yet to solve. How do you run against a popular war time president?
Later, she still keeps her invitation to President Clinton's inauguration in her scrapbook. We'll ask Heidi Fleiss about that book.
And then, the movie all of America will be lining up to see. Is it because of James Carville? Shudder, shudder. We'll show you.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: President Bush seems to be counting on a war on terrorism and possibly a war with Iraq to distract everyone attention from the terrible job he is doing running the country. In reality, he has left Democratic presidential candidate with so many lines to attack, it's hard to pick off where to begin. In the CROSSFIRE, Republican strategist and former Congresswoman Susan Molinari, along with Democratic strategist and former Congressman Tony Coelho.
CARLSON: Tony, among the many people considering a run for the Democratic nomination is former senator Gary Hart, a serious person. I'm not going to attack him on the basis of what happened (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but I do want you to respond to this. He's against the war in Iraq and this is one of the questions he raised in his speech last week in San Francisco.
"We must not let our role in the world be dictated by Americans who too often find it hard to distinguish their loyalties to their original homelands from their loyalties to America and it's national interests."
What Americans and disloyal Americans is he talking about?
COELHO: I don't know, nor do I care.
CARLSON: I'll tell you what difference it makes. This is, within your party, one of the best respected thinkers of foreign policy Democrats have.
COELHO: Is it.
CARLSON: Yes, it is. And he's articulating...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I think so. And I think many Democrats think so, and he's articulating a point of view I want you to respond to.
You're not going to respond to it?
COELHO: I don't know what he's talking about nor do I care. Because what I think is going on here is that you and a lot of Republicans are trying just to belittle the whole process, you know.
CARLSON: I'm asking you to respond to a specific quote.
COELHO: I'm just not interested. I just don't care.
CARVILLE: When I ran campaigns I was always scared to death. In the Republican party, and Tucker, all of them are dismissive and arrogant that anyone should run against George Bush, that he -- that there will be a coronation in 2004.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I don't understand, what is the difference between the culture of the Republican party that says that we can't lose this election and anybody that runs against is a fool and unpatriotic. And the Democratic party that we always are like, this guy we going to run, we have to take it real seriously. That's Tucker's the entire attitude.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What is the cultural difference between the Republicans and the Democrats? That we don't scared and you run arrogant.
CARLSON: Amen, there you go! I agree with that!
MOLINARI: Sorry. I can't take this seriously.
James, my goodness.
We spend the first part of the show saying that George Bush is losing the war on terrorism against Saddam Hussein and now you're... (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Yes, we are getting slaughtered in the court of world opinion.
MOLINARI: Which George Bush fortunately as president does not care about and just cares about winning the war on terrorism. But now you make these accusations, we Republicans, George Bush and others take this politics of running for president of the United States extremely serious...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You say the opponents that run against us, nobody...
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: You know what? You're right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What is it about the culture of a Republican that says we shouldn't take our opponents seriously enough. And also we take everything seriously. I don't understand it.
MOLINARI: That's a rather broad generalization.
COELHO: We go back to the...
MOLINARI: To who?
COELHO: Former President Bush. At that particular time when he was running to reelection we had no shot, my god, our candidates were awful. You folks were saying that all of the time. Something happened, we got -- then the White House for 8 years by one of those loser candidates. And you know, I think this is the same thing.
MOLINARI: I can't believe we're -- I will say that I'm going to be judgmental in the fact that you want to bring up politics however many years ago as opposed to discussing the Democratic candidates that
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I am just as optimistic about this election coming up in '04 as I was in '92 and I think...
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I think it's fabulous what -- our candidates that are out.
CARLSON: What do you think of Al Sharpton? A lot of Democrats don't take Al Sharpton seriously. We here on CROSSFIRE, we take him seriously.
CARVILLE: I don't. Excuse me, I'm on CROSSFIRE I don't. CARLSON: He should be allowed and will get a prime time speaking role in Boston at the Democratic convention.
COELHO: I don't know. I don't care about that.
CARLSON: You don't care about Al Sharpton as a prime time.
COELHO: You ought to be asking, does Al Sharpton have the right to run for president? You're damn right he does.
CARLSON: That is a stupid question.
COELHO: That is not either.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I'll answer your question. If he credible at the convention, yes, he has a right to, but I don't think...
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: Can I say something here?
You know why you have to take Al Sharpton seriously because we all than when somebody like that who plays way to the left, and let's face it out of the field of eight or nine that are there today you have some substantially liberal Democrats who are coming forward, who are going to force more of your main street political candidates to move to the left.
CARVILLE: You like to talk about Al Sharpton. Well ask me this question, why was David Duke so much more successful than the Republican party. He was a Nominee of governor of the state of Louisiana.
(CROSSTALK)
MOLINARI: No, no. Let's be serious about this. The truth is that if we can have a serious conversation for five minutes on this show tonight, that when someone like Pat Buchanan run, it moved him way to the right to a point where the election in the general electorate was near impossible. And I suggest to you the look of the new Democrats who are coming into the field right now, the liberals, are going to do the same thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: On that point, unfortunately, we are go to have to...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Unfortunately, we have got to go.
Congresswoman Molinari, Tony Coelho, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.
She once pled guilty to pandering and now she's written a book about it. Next in the CROSSFIRE, former Hollywood madam Heidi Fleiss.
And speaking of Hollywood a certain CROSSFIRE host is appearing on the silver screen. No extra points for guess which one, but you'll want to stick around and see him in action, as if you haven't seen enough already.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. Dennis Hastert need look no further than our next guest for advice on how to keep an orderly house. The once notorious Hollywood Madam Heidi Fleiss has written her tell tell-all memoir about one of recent history's most tantalizing sex scandals.
Her book is "Pandering." It's in stores now. And Heidi Fleiss is in the CROSSFIRE. She's in Los Angeles.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I guess I say Madam Fleiss or whatever. But your book is very unique. It looks like a high school or college yearbook almost more than what you would think of as a typical book. Why did you choose this format like this? And if you open it, it's got a lot of pictures and some words. Tell us how you arrived at this decision.
HEIDI FLEISS, AUTHOR, "PANDERING": Well, I think that nowadays most people don't read. I've been an avid reader my whole life and I still am. So I had to take advantage of that. And if you look at magazine subscriptions, the only ones that are up are "Maxim," "Stuff" and "FHM" because their articles are this big.
So I made my book very smart, very visual, very concise. A lot of court transcripts, court documents. That seem to be very popular these days. And people want photos. They want to -- this is a very inside look at another type of lifestyle.
CARLSON: Heidi, I want to put a quote from the book up on the screen and let our viewers judge the wisdom of it.
FLEISS: OK, give it to me.
CARLSON: Here it goes. "When a girl has sex and gets paid for it, most people call it prostitution and think of it as ugly. It's really an act of caring and consideration. It shows that the man cares about getting her bills paid and cares that she has nice things like cars and clothes, things to make the life easier."
I guess my first reaction reading this, I thought, well, you know, after being a madam and going to prison, you think you would have learned more about men. Do you really think men go to prostitutes to express caring and consideration?
FLEISS: Well, you have to take every situation into context. And my business, the way I ran it, you have to remember, I dealt with one percent of the richest men in the entire world. And basically, what I'm trying to say there is prostitution is an ugly word and it does sound degrading and humiliating. And, say if a girl does have sex with a guy and a guy does happen to give her $300, I mean he is helping her out. Even if he gives her $3 million or $3, whatever, you're helping someone out.
CARVILLE: Ms. Fleiss, actually, I've admitted that I did frequent these houses when I was 14. I was taking to Macomb, Mississippi as a kind of rite of initiation there.
FLEISS: You did that?
CARVILLE: And I went to the Stillway (ph) bar in St. Landry Parish, too. And as I remember -- but I can't remember it definitely because somebody else paid for it -- it was like $10. Let's say in Beverly Hills today if someone was at the Peninsula Hotel, what would be the going rate for a top, high quality, call person?
FLEISS: A sexy (UNINTELLIGIBLE) man like you would be free.
CARVILLE: Oh, you're the best. Buy the book. Buy the book. Buy the book. Whatever you do, go buy the book.
FLEISS: It's available everywhere right now.
CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to me, but I love it. I'm serious.
FLEISS: Let me tell you. OK, I was -- I've been out of the business 10 years, but back in my day -- you know I'm not going to do the math right now -- you don't go, say, this one's $500. This is $10,000, this is $5,000. I had a standard rate but I knew people would tip $100,000, sometimes $1 million.
CARVILLE: What was the most you ever got for one night's employment?
FLEISS: On my best day, I made -- I think it was $94,000 in cash. And that's me, just 40 percent.
CARVILLE: Is there any way I can break into this thing?
FLEISS: Hey, that's why I loved it. And on my worst day -- my worst day...
CARLSON: Tell me about your worst day.
FLEISS: ... was $7,000 in cash, and that was only 40 percent.
CARVILLE: Can I ask you just for an estimate. How many guys in your life. Just an estimate.
FLEISS: How many guys have I slept with or did I do business with?
CARVILLE: Slept with. How many guys in your life have you slept with? Just an estimate. You don't have to...
FLEISS: Well I can't find anyone to date me, so...
CARVILLE: Just give us a number.
FLEISS: That I have slept with?
CARVILLE: Right.
FLEISS: Probably three or four.
CARVILLE: Three or four?
FLEISS: I can't a date for the life of me.
CARLSON: Wow. Maybe you need to try another business. In the book, you reproduce an invitation to the Clinton inaugural in 1992.
FLEISS: Oh, now you would love that. I knew it.
CARLSON: Well I was sort of interested. Did you go and were you invited?
FLEISS: I was invited. I don't even remember who sent me the invitation, but I didn't go because I was rather depressed then. I was just arrested, but it was cool, because from my house you would hear Barbra Streisand rehearsing all day.
CARLSON: You've got in the book that one of the people you met in prison was a domestic terrorist member of a Puerto Rican separatist group, who it turned out was pardoned by President Clinton while you were in prison. Did you feel sort of like maybe you should get a pardon, too? Did you expect one?
FLEISS: No. I didn't expect anything like that. And I didn't -- I -- look, I ran an illegal business. I got in trouble. I accept responsibility.
I went and I did my time. It was very hard. It was a women's federal institution.
It was not some club fed. And a lot of cases I thought I might end up there 20 years because it seems like you have to fight for your life in there. And I feel I paid my dues to society.
CARLSON: Well, you're doing that in part by coming on CROSSFIRE. And if you'll just stay right where you are, we'll be right back...
FLEISS: "Pandering."
CARLSON: "Pandering." Well we'll put the book up again in just a minute. Did Princess Diana ever use Heidi Fleiss' services? We'll find out when we come back. One of the many titillating facts we'll bring you.
Then, someone better lock up the Oscar statuettes. CROSSFIRE is going to the movies. Stay tuned for a sneak peak of James Carville's role on the big screen. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. She's been a chess champion, she's been a waitress, she's also run a bordello. She has also voted in every election since she was 18. We're talking with Heidi Fleiss, the author of "Pandering"
CARVILLE: Ms. Fleiss, your book is fascinating the way that you did it. And one of the things you added is a note on the cover that Princess Di wrote to you. And I want to read to you what she said to you.
"Thanks, Heidi, what a babe. He rocked my world." Did you...
FLEISS: Now listen. That is in the book.
CARVILLE: Did you procure the services for somebody, for a gigolo or something here? What's going on?
FLEISS: No, no. You know I didn't deal in the business of men for hire. But when people would say to me, "Heidi, I have this really good looking guy, he wants to work for you," even though I didn't deal in that, I would say, well bring him over, maybe I do, just so I could see what they looked like. But as far as Princess Diana...
CARVILLE: Did you fix her up on a date?
FLEISS: Of course not. How many times...
CARVILLE: What was she talking about? Let me read it to you again. "Thanks, Heidi. What a babe. He rocked my world."
FLEISS: Let me tell you something. Baby, let me explain it to you. How many times have you signed autographs? I sign them all of the time, "My number one client," "My best girl."
CARVILLE: Right. Best wishes. All the best.
FLEISS: Yes. OK, you just get, "All of the best." It's a side of the princess...
CARVILLE: No, no, no. "What a babe. He rocked my world." Who is "he" in this? We just want to know who is the mystery pronoun?
FLEISS: It's a sense of humor. It makes -- that's why she was the most popular princess ever, because she was human.
CARVILLE: I like you, but your answer is as unconvincing as some of Tucker's political philosophies.
FLEISS: I know what you want it to be. I know what you want the answer to be. CARLSON: Heidi, tell me this -- I want to probe your wisdom. You've dealt with a lot of men. Tell me one thing you've learned about men.
FLEISS: They all cheat.
CARLSON: Well, you're coming from a bias point of view.
CARVILLE: Wait a minute. I just want to say one thing. This is Heidi Fleiss. She's on here (ph). She has a new book out, a very unique book called "Pandering."
FLEISS: "Pandering." I have six other titles coming out. I'm a publisher now. I'm no longer the bible of prostitution on the "Ricki Lake Show."
I have six other title coming out in the next two years. And "Pandering" is for everyone. More entertaining than any prostitute.
CARLSON: Well that means six more appearances on CROSSFIRE, Heidi. But first we have a question from our audience -- yes.
CHRIS: Hi. I'm Chris (ph) from Beverly. My parents sent me to college to find a career. And, Ms. Fleiss, I just think it would be a shame to miss this opportunity. Could you briefly outline the pros and cons of being a Hollywood madam?
FLEISS: Well I think that I came about it in a unique time period. And that time period is over. I mean now it's like modems, not madams.
And the world has changed. And a lot of money's different, the way money is spent is differentment, the people are different. I'm so far removed from that lifestyle that I really can't give you an answer except don't do it.
CARLSON: Really? Well tell us quickly what you do now, like apart from writing your six books. You sell underwear? Is that true?
FLEISS: Before I went to prison I had a store called Heidi Wear (ph), and everyone said oh, why are you selling men's boxer shorts? You'll never make a penny. There's Joe Boxer, Calvin Klein. I made a million dollars.
CARVILLE: Speaking of underwear, I have a guy in an orange shirt out here that wants to ask you a question.
ASHLEIGH: Hi. I'm Ashleigh (ph) from California. And I wanted to know if you had any regrets about what you've done? Specifically the effects it's had on your family?
FLEISS: Of course. The pain and the -- it was very unfair to my family. And I feel terrible about it. And dad, I love you, and one day I'll make it up to you.
CARLSON: I wonder, Heidi, if you feel -- I mean you profited from the work of other women, right? Some of whose lives are probably pretty screwed up. Do you feel guilty about that?
FLEISS: OK. Now that is where I think, you know, people think of it -- and you have to take it into context -- that women were being taken advantage of, exploited. Not in my case. In my case, I gave them opportunity so they were not exploited. So they were not taken advantage of. They could go to college -- excuse me?
CARLSON: Did you offer health insurance is the question?
FLEISS: Come on. I dealt with one percent of the richest people in the world. These are the most -- it's all in the book. The transcripts (UNINTELLIGIBLE), clean, smooth, you get what you paid for.
CARVILLE: Ms. Fleiss, I'm going to give you about 15 seconds. Tell America and tell our audience here why they should buy the book.
FLEISS: Heidifleiss.com, order "Pandering." It's the best entertainment you can possibly get for $50. It's very controversial, it's a beautiful book. And even if you don't like me, you'll like the book.
CARVILLE: All right. Well, I like you.
CARLSON: OK. Heidi Fleiss in Los Angeles, thank you very much. Good luck with the underwear.
One of our viewers has noticed a similarity between Washington and a far frozen land to the North. Let them snicker and fire back in a moment.
But first James Carville goes to the movies. James Carville in the moves. We'll show you. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Coming soon to a theater near you a comedy called "Old School," in which three men try to recapture the fun and excitement of their college days. It stars "Saturday Night Live" alumnus Will Farrell and features a guest appearance by our own James Carville. So get out the Oscars and your handkerchiefs and watch it if you dare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OLD SCHOOL")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, the captain of the university debate team had a scheduling conflict. Yeah. So we had to bring someone else in to fill in for this event. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, the co-host of CNN's CROSSFIRE, famed political consultant, the Ragin' Cajun, Mr. James Carville.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Thank you. Thank you, Dean Cricket (ph). It's an honor and pleasure to be here, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Topic number one: What is your position on the role of government in supporting innovation in the field of biotechnology?
CARVILLE: Well, Dean, I'm glad that you asked that question...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, I'd like to jump in and take that one, Jimmy, if you don't mind.
CARVILLE: Have at it, boss.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recent research has shown that empirical evidence for globalization of corporate innovation is very limited. And as a corollary, the market for technology is shrinking. As a world leader, it's important for America to provide systematic research grants for our scientists.
I believe strongly there will always be a need for us to have a well articulated innovation policy with emphasis on human resource development. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did that come from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened? I blacked out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well that was interesting. Thank you very much. And your rebuttal, Mr. Carville?
CARVILLE: We have no response. That was perfect.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the way you do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP, "OLD SCHOOL")
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, Jimmy, I like that. We have no response. That was perfect.
CARVILLE: Well, you know, it's Hollywood, man. When you're in showbiz you have to be able to act the part. And you know, it was very nice.
CARLSON: Well I'd like to make a prediction if I could. I predict this time next year, this will be the photograph on the front page of "The Washington Post."
CARVILLE: We are expecting that. Actually, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the director, a great guy, and his stop guy, Tom Rudnick (ph), who is my man in Hollywood, they're going to nominate me and I have a lot of people behind me. CARLSON: Really. It has that sort of an art film feel.
CARVILLE: Yes it does. It's kind of an art house thing. Exactly. It's the kind of thing that the academy, they really dig this kind of thing.
CARLSON: Yes. Kind of a French undertone almost.
CARVILLE: Absolutely.
CARLSON: I think I know what you mean.
CARVILLE: Film noire.
CARLSON: Film noire? OK.
Stand by. Speaking of the French, for more French bashing, ribit, ribit, our viewers fire back. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Well, we have a little less than a year to wait before I'm nominated for my Academy Award. But we only have a few seconds to wait before we go to our favorite part of the show, "Fireback," where you get a chance to tell us what you think.
And the first one is, "James Carville, keep on rocking. You never know what's going to come out of his mouth, but he always has the strength of his convictions. Keep speaking on." -- Mary O'Sullivan, Yonkers, New York.
Great first name, Ms. O'Sullivan, and great thoughts. Thank you very much.
CARLSON: Speaking out. Yes, don't be so shy, James. Bob Froese of Peachland, British Columbia in a country called Canada, writes, "You get a little snow and you find out who the real wimps are, eh? Need some help operating your snow shovel?
The Canadians, they can never resist opportunity to kind of grind it in, you know what I mean?
CARVILLE: I'll tell you one thing (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Tucker.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: "The title of Heidi's new book, 'Pandering,' would be a great title for a book about Dubya's first year as president." Gary -- actually, no, Heidi panders to everyone. W only panders to rich and poerful people.
CARLSON: That's actually...
CARVILLE: No one will ever accuse him of pandering to people who are struggling.
CARLSON: No. Actually, I think he's done a lot of things against his own political (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Good for him.
Eric Smith of Los Angeles writes, "In considering France and its actions, I think it's useful to remember the words of a great American philosopher, Frank Zappa. 'There is no hell. There is only France."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, as I've said before, James, if Frank Zappa said it, I believe it.
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you what, I'll be going back to Paris and enjoying it.
CARLSON: I actually like being in France. It's just the only problem are the French, they live there, too.
CARVILLE: Well, they've always been good to me.
CARLSON: Yes? A question from our audience.
ADAM: I have a question for Mr. Carville. I'm Adam (ph) from Los Alamos, New Mexico. Last week I caught a sneak preview of "Old School," and I was really shocked to see you defeated by Will Farrell in the debate.
CARVILLE: It was slaughter.
ADAM: And it just surprises me, because you're a proud Democrat. And how could you let the person who played George W on SNL for so long beat you?
CARVILLE: One word: money. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. Thanks. Appreciate it.
JAMES: Hi. I'm James (ph) from Rhode Island. To what extent can we rely on British support for war in Iraq given the lack of support that Tony Blair is receiving from his own citizens right now?
CARLSON: I think we can count on it completely. I mean, the European Union, by the way -- and this was not noticed on our show, unfortunately -- just voted to condemn Saddam Hussein and remind him that he has to face disarm or face the consequences. But Tony Blair, in the face of incredible political adversity, has stayed to what he originally said, and good for him. He's a courageous leader.
CARVILLE: Yes. I think I have great respect for the prime minister. Unfortunately, our president is so inept at convincing anybody as to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of our cause, we now have Britain, which is our strongest ally, where more people think the United States is a danger to world peace than -- let me finish -- than either North Korea or Iraq.
CARLSON: That's so stupid. CARVILLE: But that's the ineptitude of this administration.
CARLSON: Shouldn't Tony Blair be convincing them? Come on.
CARVILLE: It's probably going to cause Tony Blair irreparable political harm because they operate foreign policy like a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: So Bush is responsible for Tony Blair's inability to convince his people.
CARVILLE: Right. Because he's leading the war.
CARLSON: You figure that out, America. You tell me if that makes sense.
CARVILLE: You understand, America, that we can't convince anybody of anything.
CARLSON: OK. I'm going to have to cut off your rambling to go to another question -- yes.
MATT SHODENHOLM: My name is Matt Shodenholm (ph) from Rochester Hills, Michigan. In light of the recent emphasis on duct tape and the terrorist scheme broadcast endlessly on our cable news networks, isn't President Bush perfectly content with keeping the American people on a constant state of almost irrational fear in order to help himself politically?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No. I don't think that's a fair thing to say at all. I mean the idea that the president is whipping the country into a frenzy for his own political advantages doesn't bear scrutiny. If anything, he's pursuing a war in Iraq against his own political advantage. The downfalls are much greater, I think, than the possible windfalls.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I would say this about this president, is that he wants to go to war with Iraq in the worst possible way. And so far as I can see, he's succeeding.
CARLSON: No. Because he believes it's the right thing to do regardless of...
CARVILLE: It's like cutting taxes and running a deficit. Do you think he really thinks high deficits are the right thing to do?
From the left, I'm James Carville. Goodnight for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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