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CNN Crossfire
Debate Over Boycotting French Products; Interviews With Authors Allison Pearson, Gore Vidal
Aired February 25, 2003 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.
On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.
On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE tonight, just why is he going after Saddam Hussein?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saddam Hussein hasn't disarmed.
ANNOUNCER: And oil has nothing to do with it?
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: That the oil would be operated and sold for the benefit of the Iraqi people.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, author Gore Vidal who says oil and corporate greed have everything to do with it.
Put a cork in the French wine. Leave the BMWs and Mercedes at the dealer. Just how serious are we about boycotting Old Europe?
Plus a novelist who will leave you asking, is marriage bad for sex?
Tonight on CROSSFIRE.
Live, from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Tonight, the man who made us laugh and the empire buildings throughout history, Gore Vidal says what he thinks about the crew that's in the White House now. We'll also debate that silly notion of boycotting French wine because they aren't ready to march on Iraq. And if that isn't enough, we also got an author who says marriage is hazardous to your sex life.
That's a lot to talk about. So let's get our juices throwing with the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert." Turkey -- Turkey's prime minister is considering the Bush administration of $17 billion in aids, grants and loans in return for letting 62,000 U.S. troops using the country as a base for attacking Iraq. That works out $274,000 per man/woman in uniform.
Why is Turkey hesitating? Ask yourself which nation is so derelict, whose credit is so bad that other countries demand payment up front. Would you choose A, Nigeria, B, Venezuela, C, Argentina, D, the United States of America? The correct consider is D, the United States.
As Paul Krugman noted in his column this morning, the government of Turkey has so little faith in George W. Bush that it's demanded economic aid up front in return for lending its bases. That should come as no surprise. After all, this George W. Bush's administration forgot to add reconstruction funds to Afghanistan in its new budget and reneged on its pledge to adequately fund first responders to domestic terrorist attacks.
TUCKER CARLSON, CNN CO-HOST: So Paul Krugman says the United States is less reliable than Nigeria? What an idiot he is.
CARVILLE: I say that. I said it. Please give me credit for saying that. That Turkey -- give me credit. Don't give Krugman credit.
I'm telling you that there's so little faith in the international community in this administration's work that they want cash on the palm. No credit.
CARLSON: They held this up because they could and for no reason. We keep the world afloat, James, as you're fully aware.
CARVILLE: Turkey is not an ignorant nation.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Don't say Krugman did it. I did it. I want credit for it.
CARLSON: You certainly did. And good for you.
Iraq's conventional forces are estimated to be about 50 percent of their pre-1991 strength. But in a speech, today Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld cautioned that doesn't necessarily mean that a second war against Iraq will be 50 percent easier than the first one was.
Rumsfeld says that's because Iraq's chemical and biological weapons are -- quote -- probably more lethal and dangerous today than they would have been back in 9'1. Iraq, in other words, does indeed have banned weapons of mass destruction and is willing to use them on Americans, which is another way of saying Saddam has ignored the U.N. Security Council's demand he disarm, as if we needed more evidence and we don't.
The question is will the U.N. do anything about it? That's hard to say. As the Associated Press reported this morning -- quote -- the crucial votes in the Security Council now belong to Angola, Cameroon, Guinea, Pakistan, Mexico and Chile. So Saddam Hussein holds the world hostage with biological weapons and we cannot disarm until Cameroon gives its approval. That's the argument. Think about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You are making fun of Mexico...
CARLSON: I'm not making of fun any body.
CARVILLE: Sure, you're making fun.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That's the problem. That's the problem. You don't think Mexico is a serious country. I do. I think Mexico and the people and the people are serious and I have respect for them.
CARLSON: Give me a break. I'm talking about the government of Mexico.
CARVILLE: You look down on every body else in the world like you're some kind of superior intellect to the entire world, you will find out there will be precious little support for the United States in this administration.
CARLSON: I think the United States -- it's superior to Turkey and it's superior to the rest of the world and you don't, apparently.
CARVILLE: President Bush keeps going around bragging that 92 million Americans will receive an average $1,083 in the new tax cut. But today's "New York Times" reports its figures misleading. Yes, 92 million will get something, but two people in five will get less than $100. Another two out of five will get less than $1,00. That's the fifth person, the billionaire gets a $90,000 tax cut. It all averages out.
Now to focusing in and always the little squeamish one and shoot of my mouth and criticize President Bush for his many faults. I doubt they'd like to call me a liar. I love my job here at CROSSFIRE so I will refrain from using that world.
And just to show you some ways he will be described in some of the other beautiful languages of the world.
CARLSON: I mean, that's cute and obviously, you know,...
CARVILLE: That's so true.
CARLSON: James...
CARVILLE: Why can't the man keep his word?
CARLSON: May be you can answer this question...
CARVILLE: Why can't the man...
CARLSON: No, no. I want you to answer my question and I doubt you will.
CARVILLE: OK.
CARLSON: This tax proposal would increase the percentage that people would pay overall. Wait -- answer my question -- pay over a grand a year and you will not.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If he pays $50 in taxes, you cut his taxes by a dollar, that's a greater percentage than you do that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You can't even carry on an argument.
And speaking of the inability to carry on an argument, New York's Liberal Party has finally gone the way the of Whigs, the Federalist and the Bull Moose. In last November's election for New York governor, the Liberal Party failed to generate 50,000 votes and so, by law, it loses its status as a recognized party and its automatic slot on New York ballots.
Rather than petition its way back on, the Liberals have announced they're going out of business, giving up, closing their doors, turning off the lights and going home to do whatever liberals do when they get home.
It's a poignant moment for many of us. For decades, the Liberal Party was a force in New York politics, helping figures like Bobby Kennedy and Mario Cuomo Into office. But about 10 years ago, the party started to fade. And now it fades to black. As the liberals last leader explained this morning -- quote -- we just ran out of ideas. We couldn't think of anything else to say.
And that's true, James. That is true. So instead of saying stuff, you put liar in...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Hillary Rodham Clinton....
CARLSON: Oh, please.
CARVILLE: ... who won a decisive victory in New York...
CARLSON: They have no arguments. That's why they failed.
CARVILLE: Unlike the rest of the world, I think Saddam Hussein is a horrible tyrant. Sure our current leaders let us steal elections, but Hussein won't even let his people hold an election that is honest enough to need stealing. Now he's challenged President Bush to an internationally televised debate. It probably won't happen. Remember how our president tends to slaughter the language? And I doubt if he'd go against a tyrant like George W. Bush.
But if either of them are serious about debating, I've got a serious offer. Hold it right here on CROSSFIRE. We'll bring in all four hosts to moderate. We'll even put on some extra seats so French and Germans can sit in the audience and ask questions. I see it now. It would be the ultimate CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: You know, I have a suggestion for Saddam Hussein.
ANNOUNCER: In the CROSSFIRE, the dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein and the president of the United States, George W. Bush.
CARVILLE: President Bush, Mr. Hussein, you big ugly thug, we're waiting.
CARLSON: See, I think if Saddam comes on to the set and sighs really loudly while George W. Bush is speak, maybe that will work.
CARVILLE: Maybe so.
CARLSON: Yes. It worked for Gore.
CARVILLE: Maybe so. Maybe if Bush can ever tell -- if he can tell the truth about the economy, we might be able to believe him.
CARLSON: So, unfavorably comparing him to Saddam Hussein. OK. That's going to be a great show.
You'd think that fighting global terrorism, not to mention run of the mill bank robberies, kidnappings and interstate murder sprees would be enough to keep the Department of Justice busy. You might think that, but you would be wrong.
The Department of Justice this week announced its latest of the crackdown on rolling papers. Operation Pipe Dreams is aimed at what the Department melodramatically describes as -- quote -- illegal drug paraphernalia industries. In other words, bong salesmen, roach clip dealers, head shops. A recent DOJ press release boasts that 27 people have been indicted in a major sting. No drugs at all were seized, though government agents did net several hash pipes and large amounts of salty snack foods.
Keep in mind, this is not a joke except that it is. Here's some advice for the crime busters of the Justice Department: put down the rolling papers, go find some terrorists.
CARVILLE: You know, this is the same Justice Department that in August of 2001.
CARLSON: Come on. I mean, I knew you were going to take it and run in a silly direction. This is about the war on drugs< James.
CARVILLE: You know what? Can you just -- I don't interrupt you, I'm making a point.
CARLSON: Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. CARVILLE: I'm making a point, if you don't like the point and you can answer, but I'm going to make my point.
CARLSON: What's the point? What's the point?
CARVILLE: I'm going to make my point and shut up. This is the same Justice Department that in august of 2001 spent tens of millions of dollar, hundreds of man hours determining that yes, was there prostitution in New Orleans. Wow! Thank you.
CARLSON: See? That was not a point worth making. I was right.
He says Osama bin Laden was framed. In a moment we'll talk to novelist Gore Vidal about how he sees the world.
Later, sell no wine while the French still whine. We'll debate how quickly an international boycott could get Jacques Chirac's attention.
And then, sex in marriage. Is it becoming extinct? We'll share the evidence we've gathered. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. When was the last time you heard President Bush say he wants Osama bin Laden dead or alive? But just about everyday you hear the president saying he wants to disarm Saddam Hussein. Our next guest thinks the Bush administration has its priorities screwed up, but you can probably guess that from the title of his book. It's called "Dreaming War: Blood For Oil and the Cheney- Bush Junta." From Los Angeles, please welcome author, Gore Vidal.
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Vidal, you make a pretty serious charge. A number of them in this book, but here's one from page 17. I want to read it to you. You write, "The unlovely Osama was chosen on aesthetic grounds to be the frightening logo for our long contemplated invasion and conquest of Afghanistan, planning for which had been `contingency' some years before 9/11."
The implication is that Osama bin Laden was some sort of patsy, a Richard Jewell figure, sort of chosen. Do you believe that?
GORE VIDAL, AUTHOR: Well, that's not what I'm saying.
CARLSON: What are you saying?
VIDAL: I don't propose a remedial reading course for you, but the sentence is quite the contrary.
CARLSON: Look, you seem to be saying that...
VIDAL: Osama bin Laden did what he did.
CARLSON: What did he do?
VIDAL: Well, what did Bush do? There had been a contingency plan of the Clinton administration and Sandy Berger who was the national security adviser actually handed to Condoleezza Rice who took his place in the new administration of George W. Bush, their plans for an October strike at Afghanistan.
There was an opportunity for us to prepare. It wasn't taken. Osama bin Laden was then used to excite everybody, I'm quite sure -- I'm not quite sure, but I agree with everybody else that he was certainly responsible for 9/11.
But talking about lying and, by the way, "The New York Times," the newspaper I cannot stand had today a wonderful column by a guy called Crudman (ph) listing some 40 lies that Bush has told us recently.
CARLSON: Wait, wait, Mr. Vidal, before you go on...
VIDAL: Let me complete my thought.
CARLSON: Can just you answer my question, though?
VIDAL: You don't have a question...
CARLSON: Here it is. Was Osama bin Laden responsible for attacking the World trade Center and the Pentagon? You imply...
VIDAL: Yes, of course, he was, but he was then used, first of all to excite the American people. We were going to go after them. We were going to go after Afghanistan. We were going to kill off the Taliban. We were going to kill off al Qaeda.
Then suddenly in the middle of it comes the biggest lie of all, we're after Iraq. And we pretend that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, which he did not. That is the point to this discourse, not that he is used as a logo. That is irony. Sometimes I think it should be printed in blue.
CARVILLE: Well, if somebody who actually did need a remedial course and I haven't taken any of them, I need another remedial courses here. I want to get to the crux of what you are saying here. In Afghanistan, and we'll move to Iraq, there's no oil in Afghanistan, is there?
VIDAL: No, but there are Unocal, Union Oil of California, had a contract when the Taliban, when they were governing there and we had put them there originally to fight the Russians. They then went crazy on us and it was impossible for Unocal to build a pipeline to get the Caspian oil out of all those little countries that end in the word "stan," Uzbekistan and so on.
Afghanistan was necessary to have a pipeline that would take that oil from the Caspian Sea down to Afghanistan, through Pakistan, to the Port of Karachi in the Indian Ocean where it would be loaded aboard Chinese ships as they are hungry for oil and that was the deal.
The deal was screwed up by the Taliban who went crazy, so we -- then Osama bin Laden enters the scene, providing us with a perfect pretext for going into Afghanistan which the previous administration, and you can blame this on Clinton, if you like, had been planning to do.
Now that's at play. It's all about oil. It's all about money. It's about energy. So one thing, if I may make a suggestion to Tucker -- is that your name?
CARLSON: Yes, Gore, yes. Mr. Vidal, that's right.
VIDAL: Yes, I like Mr. Vidal better, anyway. I like your tie.
CARLSON: Thank you.
VIDAL: You're welcome. Don't personalize everything. One of the reasons that television is so dreadful and unwatchable by anybody with an I.Q. slightly above room temperature except as a sport like this in which you get a lot of people shouting, everything is personalities. Oh, Hillary Clinton...
CARLSON: Wait, wait, wait. One of the requirements of television is that you answer the question. I asked you a simple one.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But perhaps you can answer it. I want to read from your book that we're talking about. This is a quote...
VIDAL: You are not talking about it.
CARLSON: Oh, I am. I simply want to read you a quote from your book. Here it is, the government on page 186, you say, "plays off Americans' relative innocence, or ignorance to be more precise. This is probably why geography has not really been taught since World War II -- to keep people in the dark as to where we are blowing things up. Because Enron wants to blow them up. Or Unocal, the great pipeline company, wants a war going some place."
Now, that's what you wrote, you're implying there's a conspiracy that extends even to the classroom where children are not taught geography. That's what you say. That seems to me ludicrous.
VIDAL: Well, it would, but I think you've got to take into account that the people who do the educating are also the people who steal money from us like Enron. Like this administration. They don't want an informed people. If we had...
CARLSON: How does Enron control the schools?
VIDAL: How does Enron control the schools? It siphons up so much money for itself as does the war machine that it's in collusion with.
There is no money -- I go back to 1950, to Harry Truman and the origins of the Cold War, when the country was militarized and we never got it back. We've been at war -- I wrote a little book called "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace." We had been at war for 50 years and we had no proper enemy anywhere unless it was the Soviet Union and we never went to war with them. But one month it's Panama and Noriega. The next month it's Gadhafi. It's the Enemy of the Month Club.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Vidal, I'm sorry to cut you off. We have to take a quick commercial break, another thing we do in the television world. We'll be right back. In a minute we'll ask Gore Vidal who is to blame for 9/11.
Later, we'll debate the grassroots effort to teach France a lesson about who's in charge. Old Europe vs. U.S. consumers? you can tell what side we're on.
And then the author of one of the depressing and funniest best- sellers about marriage. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Gore Vidal has written about almost every U.S. president usually in fiction, but his latest book is stranger than fiction, just like the Bush Administration. It's called "Dreaming War Blood For Oil and the Chain He-Bush Junta."
Gore Vidal, is in CROSSFIRE from Los Angeles.
CARLSON: Gore Vidal, many critics of the impending war against Iraq is suggesting that the United States is doing the bidding of Israel.
Do you believe that?
VIDAL: It's the first I heard of that.
CARLSON: Well now that you've heard of it, what do you think?
VIDAL: I think the gas and oil business outrank Israel in the minds of the Bush Administration. That's their business. Now, you use the magic word, you don't believe there's a conspiracy? Now that is a word that's been demonized. So anybody who says that there is a conspiracy believes in flying saucers, you know.
CARLSON: That's true, yes.
VIDAL: So I've changed.
CARLSON: Controlling the schools.
VIDAL: I've changed the word for you. The fact that the -- Mr. Bush senior and Mr. Bush junior, Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Gale Norton, secretary of the interior. These are all gas oil people.
Is this a conspiracy? No
Because we don't have conspiracies in America we never have had one. It's a coincidence and I hope from now on that you use that word, coincidence, then we're clear because otherwise I'll say that you believe in flying saucers and you may be taken off at any minute by strangers and aliens from another planet.
CARVILLE: As remedial as I might be, I understand there is a conspiracy and a coincidence. This coincidence that we had, are you saying, sir, that in your opinion this government serves the interest of the oil and gas industry at the expense of American people or if they do is that a coincidence or a conspiracy?
VIDAL: I think there's a lot of conspiracy going on as we can see with the USA patriot act which Congress passed without reading it. Something like 400 pages in which many of our liberties are removed from us. It's a war on the Bill of Rights. It came out 20 days after 9/11. That meant it was already written. You don't write it that fast. So that was in preparation. That's a coincidence that it was just sitting there, suspending (UNINTELLIGIBLE) corpus and all sorts of things that are un-American.
CARVILLE: Let me paraphrase, what your saying, they are using the war of terrorism as a pretext to deny American citizen rights?
VIDAL: The fact that we may be struck again by whoever it was who did it, yes, Mr. Bow tie I do believe it was Osama bin Laden, who was an Arabian.
(CROSSTALK)
VIDAL: All of the people...
CARLSON: Mr. Vidal, Mr. Turtleneck, I if can call you that, you just said a second ago in an indirect way that the patriot act was written before 9/11 but it's just a coincidence. But your implication is the federal government knew that 9/11 was going to happen. That's what you're implying why don't you just say it.
VIDAL: If I thought it, could prove it, I would say it. I suspect it, but I don't really think it. We know nothing. You missed the point to my little book which was I was setting up some of the charges that could be brought against George W. Bush when he comes to be impeached by the House of Representatives. He swore on oath to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States. He swore that as all presidents do. Well the United States is we, the people and Congress assemble. We were not protected at 9/11. He was warned by everybody from Mossad to President Putin in advance. We have stacks of warnings that came in.
CARLSON: OK. Unfortunately.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Vidal we going to have to end it. We are completely out of time. You live in Italy. Please come and visit us in our country more often. We appreciate having you, thank you very much.
VIDAL: It's always good to have the turtleneck and the bow tie.
CARLSON: Up next! Not only is there foreign policy annoying, their wine is no longer as good as ours. Boycotting France, a grassroots movement. You can sign up here. Later, we'll debate whether marriage makes a mockery of your sex life. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington.
As ambassadors get paid to do, the U.S. ambassador to France today tried to smooth over differences between our two countries saying, "I think Americans like the French a lot." When the crowd stopped laughing, Ambassador Howard Leach went on to dismiss the possibility of a U.S. boycott of French products, like cheese and wine and mineral water, quoting again, "It's an emotional isolated reaction."
Here to add to this emotion are Justin Vaisse of the Brookings Institution and Dave Bossie, president of Citizens United.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: In governance to Mr. Bossie's boycott, would you dim those German lights right now? Because we don't want them shining on him. These lights were made in Germany, so we'll dim them temporarily. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Mr. Bossy, I want to show you something that appeared in "The Washington Post" here and I want to get your opinion on this.
DAVID BOSSIE, CITIZENS UNITED: Sure.
CARVILLE: According to oil industry executives and confidential United States records, Halliburton held stakes in two firms that signed contracts to sell more than $73 million in oil production equipment and spare parts to Iraq while Cheney was chairman and chief executive officer of the Dallas-based company. Two former senior executives of Halliburton subsidiaries say that, as far as they knew, there was no policy against doing business with Iraq."
Now why in the hell can't I drink a glass of French wine and Dick Cheney can make $73 million in dealing with Iraq?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: How does that make sense?
BOSSIE: I don't really thank has anything to do with our boycott. CARVILLE: It doesn't? So, wait, we're supposed to be -- we have a national boycott in place against Iraq. They circumvent it and do $73 million worth of business, and you're telling me I'm a bad American because I drink French wine?
BOSSIE: No. What we're saying is this is a coalition of the willing, James, and obviously, you're not one of the willing. But what we're saying is the Americans can speak and tell the leaders of France and Germany that actions have consequences. What they are doing -- what they are doing -- can you agree with me just for a second? Agree with me, Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who murders his own people, correct?
CARVILLE: I wouldn't do business -- I wouldn't buy Iraqi -- I wouldn't do $73 million worth -- would you do $73 million worth, as Dick Cheney did?
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: James, is he a brutal dictator?
CARVILLE: I think he is a brutal dictator. I will not drink Iraqi wine.
BOSSIE: Then the French and the Germans...
JUSTIN VAISSE, BROOKINS INSTITUTION: I agree.
BOSSIE: The French and the Germans are the only ones between us and the Iraqi people being liberated.
CARLSON: But you know, Justin, actually, that's an interesting point. Wait...
VAISSE: So 30 percent of the American people and, you know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: Yes, but here's the problem. France has done $3.1 billion in trade with Iraq since 1996. It's the single largest trading partner for weapons. There is a lot of evidence that France has sold...
VAISSE: For weapons?
CARLSON: That's exactly right. That France has sold chemical and biological weapons components, and we know for certain that France has sold nuclear weapons components. Why should I as an American consumer help to prop up a regime like that of Jacques Chirac with my money, when it's spending that money helping Saddam Hussein?
(APPLAUSE)
VAISSE: The problem with that -- the problem is that you don't quite understand the world that we are living in. We are living in a globalize world.
BOSSIE: We are under attack every day.
VAISSE: And you actually are going with this boycott to American importers, American shareholders, and American jobs, because the reality is that, when you do a boycott, a small boycott like that, you are going to hurt the people that do trade with France here. And they're going to be hurt much more than France. Let me tell you...
CARLSON: But isn't there a moral component? People boycotted South Africa because what South Africa was doing was wrong. So what France is doing is wrong. Why isn't it morally just a boycott terrier (ph), or whatever it is?
VAISSE: You know, for example, last time -- you remember last time I was on the show you showed me a nice bottle of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) saying we were going to boycott that. Well the problem is, that belongs to the Coca-Cola company.
CARLSON: Right. That's why we went to Perrier instead, exactly.
(APPLAUSE)
VAISSE: Right. So that's a very good example...
CARVILLE: This is a German -- my wife gave me this, a (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It's considered by some people to be the finest brand of watches made in the world. Should I throw this damn thing away? It's a pretty expensive watch, I got to tell you.
BOSSIE: I don't think so. I'm not going to throw my German automobile away that I'd sell, but that's there's a for sale sign out on it if you're interested in a Volkswagen.
CARVILLE: OK. What about people in South Carolina? There's a BMW plant in South Carolina. There's a Mercedes plant in Alabama. Look, should these people go to work or should they strike? I mean what are you saying? You don't want me to buy a German watch? Are these bad Americans that are working these plants and feeding their families?
BOSSIE: What we're saying is that this coalition of the willing, people who are interested in making the Germans and the French understand what we're saying, which is enough is enough. You're standing in the way of the Iraqi people being liberated.
CARVILLE: So these auto workers in South Carolina and Alabama are bad Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: James, let the guy answer the question, please.
BOSSIE: You know what, James? The guys who are the hard workers in Alabama and Georgia and South Carolina, what they are...
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: You know what? Because they guys who are in the National Guard and in the Reserves, they're all overseas.
CARVILLE: I don't need a speech. I've been in the Marine Corps. Answer the question.
BOSSIE: And that gives you the credibility to speak on this? Give me a break.
CARVILLE: I'm asking you, are these bad Americans that work at the BMW plant in South Carolina and work at the Mercedes plant in Alabama?
CARLSON: Of course not.
BOSSIE: It's silly what you're even...
CARVILLE: Well I'm not silly. Well you're talking about a boycott.
BOSSIE: That's exactly right.
CARVILLE: If you watch "Schindler's List" you're a bad American? It's owned by a French company.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I want to ask Justin, who is a verified French person, this question. You've heard this debate about boycotting Germany. That's sort of a big deal. I mean there are German car plants in this country. But when you think about boycotting France, what does the -- French products -- that means we're not buying Le Coq Sportif, not drinking Perrier.
It sort of says a lot about the weakened condition of France that a boycott of French products would affect really just wine drinkers and people who wear Le Coq Sportif, whatever that is.
VAISSE: Yes. I think the big problem with the boycott is that you -- you know if Mr. Bossie and a couple of American people want to symbolically deny themselves French cheese that's fine, but I don't think it's going to have a big impact on Chirac. Actually, I think he couldn't care less.
CARLSON: Because France is no longer an economic power.
BOSSIE: Neither did the government of South Africa, the government of Cuba. And let me tell you...
VAISSE: Oh, Cuba is a very good example.
BOSSIE: We've been boycotting them since JFK.
CARVILLE: Mr. Bossie has attacked autoworkers in South Carolina and Alabama.
CARLSON: Oh, come on. CARVILLE: Of course you are. Don't say come on. These are bad Americans, according to you people. According to the patriot correct police, if you buy a German car or drink French wine you're a bad American.
Now this is a bottle of French wine. Not a very good one. I could actually boycott this one this. This is not even a crous bourjois (ph). But say like a nice (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which I like. A (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Am I saying it right?
VAISSE: Yes. And the problem is that if you begin to drink Estonian wine, you're going to have terrible hangovers.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Dave, I want to give you a chance. Dave, we'll give you a chance to apologize to hardworking people in Alabama.
BOSSIE: I thought we were going to have a serious conversation, a serious debate.
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: You just want to yell and scream at me and that's fine.
CARVILLE: I'll scream at you any time I want to, boy.
CARLSON: Dave Bossie, tell us, why should Americans boycott French products?
CARVILLE: Let this guy defend himself.
CARLSON: Why should they boycott French products?
BOSSIE: It's very simple. We have been saying -- and I said it earlier in the show -- this is simply to make the governments of France and Germany understand that they are the only ones standing in between the liberation of the Iraqi people and Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship. What we are saying is this is an easy opportunity for the Americans to speak with their wallets and just simply not buy French products.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: Well you're a good guy from South Carolina...
CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are out of time.
CARVILLE: Feed your family and take care of them.
CARLSON: Dave Bossie, I'm sorry, we're out of time. Good luck with your boycott. Justin, good luck. I guess you're not doing a boycott. You should, though.
Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.
VAISSE: Thanks.
CARLSON: Next, the author of a book that reviewers are encouraging women to not read aloud to their husbands. And in some cases, not to read at all.
Later, in our "Quote of the Day," a prominent southern senator offers some down home advice to Hollywood. You're watching CROSSFIRE on CNN, the most trusted name in news. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. After exhausted research, CROSSFIRE's determined that in spite of popular belief the British do have sex. At least up until marriage.
Our next guest is a British journalist and critic whose very funny first novel probed the question, "Is Sex Bad for Marriage?" I've got nothing to say on this, because I don't need that kind of trouble when I get home. So in the CROSSFIRE from London, the author of "I Don't Know How She Does It," Allison Pearson.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Allison Pearson, thanks for joining us. I want to put up on the screen -- I'm not sure if you can see it, but I'll read it aloud -- it's on page seven, right at the very beginning of your novel. And Kate Reddy (ph), who is the protagonist of your book, says this.
She says, "If I stay in the bathroom long enough, Richard" -- her husband -- "will fall asleep and will not try to have sex with me. If we don't have sex, I can skip a bath in the morning. If I skip the bath, I will have time to start on the e-mails that have built up while I've been away." Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
It's really kind of a poignant line that suggests that a lot of women now choose e-mail over sex. Do you think that's true and if so, why?
ALLISON PEARSON, AUTHOR, "I DON'T KNOW HOW SHE DOES IT": Well, I think she's a very, very tired woman. She has an exhausting job and she's suffering from what many of us in the west are suffering from, a time famine. So she's counting all those precious seconds, and she figures out that if she actually has an orgasm -- I know you guys don't know very much about this, but it makes you very, very tired. So she needs to avoid those at all costs.
CARLSON: Well doesn't she -- she decides -- not to give away the book or to oversimplify it, but in the end she makes a decision that essentially, if she's going to have a happy sex life and really a happy marriage, she's got to stop working so much. Have you taken a lot of abuse for essentially saying that out loud?
PEARSON: No, because I think people think she gives up. To me she doesn't give up. She decides to kind of downsize a bit and just get a life. Throughout the book she's working for a big finance corporation, and it's a very testosterone-driven environment. She's exhausted and she decides to do something that enables her to get a life and to remember her husband's name and the children and so on. And I interviewed a lot of women and that's what they were reporting.
You know when you've got two parents in the family going out to work, they come in, they're yelling instructions at each other. A lot of guys in the states have written to me and said they read the book and said, now I understand why my wife yells at me.
CARVILLE: Well you have this amazing book that's doing amazingly well. There's another book out called "Divorce Busting in a Sex Starved Marriage" by a woman named Michelle Weiner Davis, and she says that many men in marriage don't want to do it. And you're saying many women in marriage don't want to do it.
And then we have a movement here in the United States that you have abstinence before you get married. So it looks like we're at the point in history where you don't have sex before you are married and you don't have sex after you get married. My question is this: Is this some kind of a 30,000-year experiment, or does this run its course? Is it just that maybe that nooky (ph) is not all it's cracked up to be out there?
PEARSON: I was wondering whether the human race was going to end up with a woman just kind of looking at some sperm in a test tube and deciding she was too tired to bother. That would seem to be a pretty bad outlook. I went to visit a friend with a newborn baby today and they were doing just fine, so I think people are still doing it enough.
CARVILLE: Enough. Well I mean, I'm kind of a holdout. I'm 58, and I'm kind of the old school. I'm not ready to throw the towel in. But is sex overrated? Is that -- can you do without all of that grunting and sweating and screaming and yelling and all that stuff? Is it overrated in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in some people's opinion?
PEARSON: Well, I think you'd know being that advanced age that people used to get married in order to have sex. I think my generation gets married not in order to stop having sex, but to have children. And children, as we know, are the enemy of sex.
I have a 7-year-old daughter who, when I kiss her dad, says, "Mommy don't do that, it gives me a tummy ache." So I think because both parents are involved in the child rearing, it's hard to find time for yourself.
CARVILLE: Well I'm the oldest of eight children. My parents had seven kids after me. So I didn't have that problem.
CARLSON: Well, Allison Pearson, don't we simply have to make a value judgement and say, you know, a happy home life, a happy marriage, sex even, is maybe more important than just about any job jou you could have? PEARSON: Yes, I know. I can see that. But I mean, who's going to not work? I mean Kate (ph), in my book, she's the main bread winner in the house. I mean it's pretty hard for her to give up, you know? I happen to think that corporations could cut parents a break and give them a little bit more time off to procreate.
CARLSON: So you would favor some sort of sex leave, then?
PEARSON: Absolutely. I would. Yes.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: One of the things that this administration -- we're always talking about tax cuts. Is there any way that we could kind of get a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tax cut, that maybe you could get a tax credit? I mean, would that help marriage or something like that? I mean, maybe every time you do it you could get -- would that be a good idea?
PEARSON: Well, you know in Sweden they're paying people now to have babies. So I think that may be the next step. In Britain now we have a really bad falling birthrate. I mean one in five women are not having kids because they're so overworked, I think. And so maybe being paid to have sex is the logical step, I think.
CARLSON: Or maybe there's a problem with English men. Allison Pearson, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming on. The book is "I Don't Know How She Does It."
CARVILLE: Thank you so much.
CARLSON: Thank you, Allison.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Some of our viewers are even joining the French bashing from earlier in the program, and good for them. We'll let one of them do that in the "Fireback."
But next, in our "Quote of the Day," he isn't Jed Clampett and doesn't want Hollywood to find a real one. We'll explain. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Come and listen to my story about a man named Zell. The senator from Georgia is giving Hollywood some hell. Before CBS starts shooting something crude, Zell Miller is asking nicely for a change in attitude.
As (UNINTELLIGIBLE) CROSSFIRE, CBS is on a hillbilly hunt throughout the South to cast a reality TV show based on "The Beverly Hillbillies" But on the floor of the U.S. Senate today, Zell Miller asked the network president, Les Moonves, not to make fun of poor people. And it's our "Quote of the Day." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: What CBS ask CEO Moonves propose to do with this cracker comedy is bigotry, pure and simple. CBS, Viacom, Mr. Moonves, I plead with you to call off your hillbilly hunt. Make your big bucks some other way. Appeal to the best in America and not the worst. Give bigotry no sanction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: I guess Senator Miller and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I agree with him on this and I've been fighting this fight on two different (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: Well, I must say, I love it when you see what members of Senate actually do in the Senate. They talk about reality TV.
No, I agree. I mean, look, Zell Miller is a very smart guy, as you know. You worked for him. And I think this is a problem. The people he's talking about, the hillbillies, actually vote Republican. And part of the reason they do is because they think...
CARVILLE: I wish he had as much passion about the deficit and the economy as he did about this hillbilly thing. But he gets a lot of passion for the deficit.
CARLSON: That's probably an insult. But I didn't quite get it.
In any case, next in "Fireback," a viewer suggests the perfect way to ensure the future of the United Nations. You won't want to miss it. It's clever. We'll see you in a second.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. And we've had our turn, now it's your turn. We go to "Fireback," where you get to tell us what you think.
"Instead of putting American servicemen and women in harm's way, wouldn't it be easier to send the Bush economic team to Iraq? Given what this team has done for our economy, it stands to reason they could destroy Saddam as well, prompting a revolution as well." Dale Adams, Franklin, Ohio.
(APPLAUSE)
Dale, it's a good idea, but they keep changing them so fast we'd have to go out and try to locate all of the ones that have been (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: I love this idea that the treasury secretary is in charge of the economy. That's pretty amusing.
Mike from Anderson, Missouri, writes, "There are two things I cannot stand: First, people who are intolerant of other's race or culture. And, second, the French."
Mike, I think you speak for all of us. Don't you think, James?
CARVILLE: Actually, I like the French. I'm French myself and, you know...
CARLSON: Oh, now you admit your conflict. OK. Now that we've already done the segment.
CARVILLE: As are most of my friends in Louisiana. There's a ton of French people in Louisiana and a ton of them all around the country. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mexico and Hispanics (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: It's not an assault on the Hispanics.
CARVILLE: "Bush keeps paying billions to countries and then claims they're his friends and allies against Iraq. It reminds me of the pathetic fellow who hires a high-priced call-girl for his high school reunion and then tells everybody she's his girlfriend." Thomas Grinnell, San Jose, California.
CARLSON: Now what kind of high school did you go to if people are hiring hookers for their reunion?
CARVILLE: I didn't go to high school in San Jose, California. I went to high school in Donaldsonville, Louisiana.
CARLSON: I bet they didn't hire hookers for reunions there. OK. Next up is Don Riggs of Aledo, Texas, writes, "Could it be time to sell the U.N. to Comedy Central? What better place for such a joke?"
That's actually a pretty -- you know the sad thing in all of this is? The U.N. really will be toothless by the end of the process. And I think everyone agrees that's a sad thing.
CARVILLE: You know the think about you all is you all hate everybody in the world so much, that you'll be glad to see it gone. I actually like people around the world and I think Americans are much better off not attacking Mexicans and not attacking Frenchmen and not attacking Germans and not attacking Canadians.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I' m from old Europe, that's Germany. My name is (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I've got this question. Since the French policy is so bad, shouldn't the U.S. send back the Statue of Liberty?
CARLSON: Well that's actually under discussion. Look, the point is not to send back the Statue of Liberty or actually to boycott decent French wine. The point is to send a message that French intransigence really matters and that people may die because of it. It's not a joke.
It may make France feel better in the short term, but it has serious consequences. It's a big deal.
CARVILLE: There's French bashing, German bashing, Mexican bashing. All of this is the silliest thing that you can imagine. And what everybody needs to do is know the French are very fine people, they're very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people.
If you've ever heard of a place called (UNINTELLIGIBLE), if you've ever heard of the French resistance, and all this is idiotic and the arrogance of this administration and...
CARLSON: The French resistance? Let me resist what you were saying and go to our next question -- yes.
RACHEL ESTRADA: Hello. My name is Rachel Estrada (ph) and I'm from Los Angeles, California. And my question is for both of you. If marriage is so bad for sex, what do you see is the future of relationships?
CARLSON: Well I don't think it needs to be. I mean the point is that it's important to put your family life, your marriage, ahead of your job. And that goes for both sexes, men and women. And it's a shame when people don't.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Actually, I'm kind of reminded of those that some of them in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Some woman got up and said, "I'd rather commit adultery than have a beer." And the guy in the back said, "Hell, who wouldn't?"
So I don't know. Somehow or another I think that sex has survived a lot. It will be around past my predicted devised date of...
CARLSON: And speaking of reproduction...
CARVILLE: Yes, indeed. We know that Sam Feist, senior executive producer of CROSSFIRE and our boss, is seen holding the newest addition to the world, Haley Anne Feist (ph). Congratulations.
From the left, I'm James Carville.
CARLSON: Americans are still doing it. That's right. From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for yet more CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Authors Allison Pearson, Gore Vidal>
Aired February 25, 2003 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.
On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.
On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE tonight, just why is he going after Saddam Hussein?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saddam Hussein hasn't disarmed.
ANNOUNCER: And oil has nothing to do with it?
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: That the oil would be operated and sold for the benefit of the Iraqi people.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, author Gore Vidal who says oil and corporate greed have everything to do with it.
Put a cork in the French wine. Leave the BMWs and Mercedes at the dealer. Just how serious are we about boycotting Old Europe?
Plus a novelist who will leave you asking, is marriage bad for sex?
Tonight on CROSSFIRE.
Live, from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Tonight, the man who made us laugh and the empire buildings throughout history, Gore Vidal says what he thinks about the crew that's in the White House now. We'll also debate that silly notion of boycotting French wine because they aren't ready to march on Iraq. And if that isn't enough, we also got an author who says marriage is hazardous to your sex life.
That's a lot to talk about. So let's get our juices throwing with the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert." Turkey -- Turkey's prime minister is considering the Bush administration of $17 billion in aids, grants and loans in return for letting 62,000 U.S. troops using the country as a base for attacking Iraq. That works out $274,000 per man/woman in uniform.
Why is Turkey hesitating? Ask yourself which nation is so derelict, whose credit is so bad that other countries demand payment up front. Would you choose A, Nigeria, B, Venezuela, C, Argentina, D, the United States of America? The correct consider is D, the United States.
As Paul Krugman noted in his column this morning, the government of Turkey has so little faith in George W. Bush that it's demanded economic aid up front in return for lending its bases. That should come as no surprise. After all, this George W. Bush's administration forgot to add reconstruction funds to Afghanistan in its new budget and reneged on its pledge to adequately fund first responders to domestic terrorist attacks.
TUCKER CARLSON, CNN CO-HOST: So Paul Krugman says the United States is less reliable than Nigeria? What an idiot he is.
CARVILLE: I say that. I said it. Please give me credit for saying that. That Turkey -- give me credit. Don't give Krugman credit.
I'm telling you that there's so little faith in the international community in this administration's work that they want cash on the palm. No credit.
CARLSON: They held this up because they could and for no reason. We keep the world afloat, James, as you're fully aware.
CARVILLE: Turkey is not an ignorant nation.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Don't say Krugman did it. I did it. I want credit for it.
CARLSON: You certainly did. And good for you.
Iraq's conventional forces are estimated to be about 50 percent of their pre-1991 strength. But in a speech, today Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld cautioned that doesn't necessarily mean that a second war against Iraq will be 50 percent easier than the first one was.
Rumsfeld says that's because Iraq's chemical and biological weapons are -- quote -- probably more lethal and dangerous today than they would have been back in 9'1. Iraq, in other words, does indeed have banned weapons of mass destruction and is willing to use them on Americans, which is another way of saying Saddam has ignored the U.N. Security Council's demand he disarm, as if we needed more evidence and we don't.
The question is will the U.N. do anything about it? That's hard to say. As the Associated Press reported this morning -- quote -- the crucial votes in the Security Council now belong to Angola, Cameroon, Guinea, Pakistan, Mexico and Chile. So Saddam Hussein holds the world hostage with biological weapons and we cannot disarm until Cameroon gives its approval. That's the argument. Think about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You are making fun of Mexico...
CARLSON: I'm not making of fun any body.
CARVILLE: Sure, you're making fun.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That's the problem. That's the problem. You don't think Mexico is a serious country. I do. I think Mexico and the people and the people are serious and I have respect for them.
CARLSON: Give me a break. I'm talking about the government of Mexico.
CARVILLE: You look down on every body else in the world like you're some kind of superior intellect to the entire world, you will find out there will be precious little support for the United States in this administration.
CARLSON: I think the United States -- it's superior to Turkey and it's superior to the rest of the world and you don't, apparently.
CARVILLE: President Bush keeps going around bragging that 92 million Americans will receive an average $1,083 in the new tax cut. But today's "New York Times" reports its figures misleading. Yes, 92 million will get something, but two people in five will get less than $100. Another two out of five will get less than $1,00. That's the fifth person, the billionaire gets a $90,000 tax cut. It all averages out.
Now to focusing in and always the little squeamish one and shoot of my mouth and criticize President Bush for his many faults. I doubt they'd like to call me a liar. I love my job here at CROSSFIRE so I will refrain from using that world.
And just to show you some ways he will be described in some of the other beautiful languages of the world.
CARLSON: I mean, that's cute and obviously, you know,...
CARVILLE: That's so true.
CARLSON: James...
CARVILLE: Why can't the man keep his word?
CARLSON: May be you can answer this question...
CARVILLE: Why can't the man...
CARLSON: No, no. I want you to answer my question and I doubt you will.
CARVILLE: OK.
CARLSON: This tax proposal would increase the percentage that people would pay overall. Wait -- answer my question -- pay over a grand a year and you will not.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If he pays $50 in taxes, you cut his taxes by a dollar, that's a greater percentage than you do that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You can't even carry on an argument.
And speaking of the inability to carry on an argument, New York's Liberal Party has finally gone the way the of Whigs, the Federalist and the Bull Moose. In last November's election for New York governor, the Liberal Party failed to generate 50,000 votes and so, by law, it loses its status as a recognized party and its automatic slot on New York ballots.
Rather than petition its way back on, the Liberals have announced they're going out of business, giving up, closing their doors, turning off the lights and going home to do whatever liberals do when they get home.
It's a poignant moment for many of us. For decades, the Liberal Party was a force in New York politics, helping figures like Bobby Kennedy and Mario Cuomo Into office. But about 10 years ago, the party started to fade. And now it fades to black. As the liberals last leader explained this morning -- quote -- we just ran out of ideas. We couldn't think of anything else to say.
And that's true, James. That is true. So instead of saying stuff, you put liar in...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Hillary Rodham Clinton....
CARLSON: Oh, please.
CARVILLE: ... who won a decisive victory in New York...
CARLSON: They have no arguments. That's why they failed.
CARVILLE: Unlike the rest of the world, I think Saddam Hussein is a horrible tyrant. Sure our current leaders let us steal elections, but Hussein won't even let his people hold an election that is honest enough to need stealing. Now he's challenged President Bush to an internationally televised debate. It probably won't happen. Remember how our president tends to slaughter the language? And I doubt if he'd go against a tyrant like George W. Bush.
But if either of them are serious about debating, I've got a serious offer. Hold it right here on CROSSFIRE. We'll bring in all four hosts to moderate. We'll even put on some extra seats so French and Germans can sit in the audience and ask questions. I see it now. It would be the ultimate CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: You know, I have a suggestion for Saddam Hussein.
ANNOUNCER: In the CROSSFIRE, the dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein and the president of the United States, George W. Bush.
CARVILLE: President Bush, Mr. Hussein, you big ugly thug, we're waiting.
CARLSON: See, I think if Saddam comes on to the set and sighs really loudly while George W. Bush is speak, maybe that will work.
CARVILLE: Maybe so.
CARLSON: Yes. It worked for Gore.
CARVILLE: Maybe so. Maybe if Bush can ever tell -- if he can tell the truth about the economy, we might be able to believe him.
CARLSON: So, unfavorably comparing him to Saddam Hussein. OK. That's going to be a great show.
You'd think that fighting global terrorism, not to mention run of the mill bank robberies, kidnappings and interstate murder sprees would be enough to keep the Department of Justice busy. You might think that, but you would be wrong.
The Department of Justice this week announced its latest of the crackdown on rolling papers. Operation Pipe Dreams is aimed at what the Department melodramatically describes as -- quote -- illegal drug paraphernalia industries. In other words, bong salesmen, roach clip dealers, head shops. A recent DOJ press release boasts that 27 people have been indicted in a major sting. No drugs at all were seized, though government agents did net several hash pipes and large amounts of salty snack foods.
Keep in mind, this is not a joke except that it is. Here's some advice for the crime busters of the Justice Department: put down the rolling papers, go find some terrorists.
CARVILLE: You know, this is the same Justice Department that in August of 2001.
CARLSON: Come on. I mean, I knew you were going to take it and run in a silly direction. This is about the war on drugs< James.
CARVILLE: You know what? Can you just -- I don't interrupt you, I'm making a point.
CARLSON: Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. CARVILLE: I'm making a point, if you don't like the point and you can answer, but I'm going to make my point.
CARLSON: What's the point? What's the point?
CARVILLE: I'm going to make my point and shut up. This is the same Justice Department that in august of 2001 spent tens of millions of dollar, hundreds of man hours determining that yes, was there prostitution in New Orleans. Wow! Thank you.
CARLSON: See? That was not a point worth making. I was right.
He says Osama bin Laden was framed. In a moment we'll talk to novelist Gore Vidal about how he sees the world.
Later, sell no wine while the French still whine. We'll debate how quickly an international boycott could get Jacques Chirac's attention.
And then, sex in marriage. Is it becoming extinct? We'll share the evidence we've gathered. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. When was the last time you heard President Bush say he wants Osama bin Laden dead or alive? But just about everyday you hear the president saying he wants to disarm Saddam Hussein. Our next guest thinks the Bush administration has its priorities screwed up, but you can probably guess that from the title of his book. It's called "Dreaming War: Blood For Oil and the Cheney- Bush Junta." From Los Angeles, please welcome author, Gore Vidal.
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Vidal, you make a pretty serious charge. A number of them in this book, but here's one from page 17. I want to read it to you. You write, "The unlovely Osama was chosen on aesthetic grounds to be the frightening logo for our long contemplated invasion and conquest of Afghanistan, planning for which had been `contingency' some years before 9/11."
The implication is that Osama bin Laden was some sort of patsy, a Richard Jewell figure, sort of chosen. Do you believe that?
GORE VIDAL, AUTHOR: Well, that's not what I'm saying.
CARLSON: What are you saying?
VIDAL: I don't propose a remedial reading course for you, but the sentence is quite the contrary.
CARLSON: Look, you seem to be saying that...
VIDAL: Osama bin Laden did what he did.
CARLSON: What did he do?
VIDAL: Well, what did Bush do? There had been a contingency plan of the Clinton administration and Sandy Berger who was the national security adviser actually handed to Condoleezza Rice who took his place in the new administration of George W. Bush, their plans for an October strike at Afghanistan.
There was an opportunity for us to prepare. It wasn't taken. Osama bin Laden was then used to excite everybody, I'm quite sure -- I'm not quite sure, but I agree with everybody else that he was certainly responsible for 9/11.
But talking about lying and, by the way, "The New York Times," the newspaper I cannot stand had today a wonderful column by a guy called Crudman (ph) listing some 40 lies that Bush has told us recently.
CARLSON: Wait, wait, Mr. Vidal, before you go on...
VIDAL: Let me complete my thought.
CARLSON: Can just you answer my question, though?
VIDAL: You don't have a question...
CARLSON: Here it is. Was Osama bin Laden responsible for attacking the World trade Center and the Pentagon? You imply...
VIDAL: Yes, of course, he was, but he was then used, first of all to excite the American people. We were going to go after them. We were going to go after Afghanistan. We were going to kill off the Taliban. We were going to kill off al Qaeda.
Then suddenly in the middle of it comes the biggest lie of all, we're after Iraq. And we pretend that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, which he did not. That is the point to this discourse, not that he is used as a logo. That is irony. Sometimes I think it should be printed in blue.
CARVILLE: Well, if somebody who actually did need a remedial course and I haven't taken any of them, I need another remedial courses here. I want to get to the crux of what you are saying here. In Afghanistan, and we'll move to Iraq, there's no oil in Afghanistan, is there?
VIDAL: No, but there are Unocal, Union Oil of California, had a contract when the Taliban, when they were governing there and we had put them there originally to fight the Russians. They then went crazy on us and it was impossible for Unocal to build a pipeline to get the Caspian oil out of all those little countries that end in the word "stan," Uzbekistan and so on.
Afghanistan was necessary to have a pipeline that would take that oil from the Caspian Sea down to Afghanistan, through Pakistan, to the Port of Karachi in the Indian Ocean where it would be loaded aboard Chinese ships as they are hungry for oil and that was the deal.
The deal was screwed up by the Taliban who went crazy, so we -- then Osama bin Laden enters the scene, providing us with a perfect pretext for going into Afghanistan which the previous administration, and you can blame this on Clinton, if you like, had been planning to do.
Now that's at play. It's all about oil. It's all about money. It's about energy. So one thing, if I may make a suggestion to Tucker -- is that your name?
CARLSON: Yes, Gore, yes. Mr. Vidal, that's right.
VIDAL: Yes, I like Mr. Vidal better, anyway. I like your tie.
CARLSON: Thank you.
VIDAL: You're welcome. Don't personalize everything. One of the reasons that television is so dreadful and unwatchable by anybody with an I.Q. slightly above room temperature except as a sport like this in which you get a lot of people shouting, everything is personalities. Oh, Hillary Clinton...
CARLSON: Wait, wait, wait. One of the requirements of television is that you answer the question. I asked you a simple one.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But perhaps you can answer it. I want to read from your book that we're talking about. This is a quote...
VIDAL: You are not talking about it.
CARLSON: Oh, I am. I simply want to read you a quote from your book. Here it is, the government on page 186, you say, "plays off Americans' relative innocence, or ignorance to be more precise. This is probably why geography has not really been taught since World War II -- to keep people in the dark as to where we are blowing things up. Because Enron wants to blow them up. Or Unocal, the great pipeline company, wants a war going some place."
Now, that's what you wrote, you're implying there's a conspiracy that extends even to the classroom where children are not taught geography. That's what you say. That seems to me ludicrous.
VIDAL: Well, it would, but I think you've got to take into account that the people who do the educating are also the people who steal money from us like Enron. Like this administration. They don't want an informed people. If we had...
CARLSON: How does Enron control the schools?
VIDAL: How does Enron control the schools? It siphons up so much money for itself as does the war machine that it's in collusion with.
There is no money -- I go back to 1950, to Harry Truman and the origins of the Cold War, when the country was militarized and we never got it back. We've been at war -- I wrote a little book called "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace." We had been at war for 50 years and we had no proper enemy anywhere unless it was the Soviet Union and we never went to war with them. But one month it's Panama and Noriega. The next month it's Gadhafi. It's the Enemy of the Month Club.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Vidal, I'm sorry to cut you off. We have to take a quick commercial break, another thing we do in the television world. We'll be right back. In a minute we'll ask Gore Vidal who is to blame for 9/11.
Later, we'll debate the grassroots effort to teach France a lesson about who's in charge. Old Europe vs. U.S. consumers? you can tell what side we're on.
And then the author of one of the depressing and funniest best- sellers about marriage. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Gore Vidal has written about almost every U.S. president usually in fiction, but his latest book is stranger than fiction, just like the Bush Administration. It's called "Dreaming War Blood For Oil and the Chain He-Bush Junta."
Gore Vidal, is in CROSSFIRE from Los Angeles.
CARLSON: Gore Vidal, many critics of the impending war against Iraq is suggesting that the United States is doing the bidding of Israel.
Do you believe that?
VIDAL: It's the first I heard of that.
CARLSON: Well now that you've heard of it, what do you think?
VIDAL: I think the gas and oil business outrank Israel in the minds of the Bush Administration. That's their business. Now, you use the magic word, you don't believe there's a conspiracy? Now that is a word that's been demonized. So anybody who says that there is a conspiracy believes in flying saucers, you know.
CARLSON: That's true, yes.
VIDAL: So I've changed.
CARLSON: Controlling the schools.
VIDAL: I've changed the word for you. The fact that the -- Mr. Bush senior and Mr. Bush junior, Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Gale Norton, secretary of the interior. These are all gas oil people.
Is this a conspiracy? No
Because we don't have conspiracies in America we never have had one. It's a coincidence and I hope from now on that you use that word, coincidence, then we're clear because otherwise I'll say that you believe in flying saucers and you may be taken off at any minute by strangers and aliens from another planet.
CARVILLE: As remedial as I might be, I understand there is a conspiracy and a coincidence. This coincidence that we had, are you saying, sir, that in your opinion this government serves the interest of the oil and gas industry at the expense of American people or if they do is that a coincidence or a conspiracy?
VIDAL: I think there's a lot of conspiracy going on as we can see with the USA patriot act which Congress passed without reading it. Something like 400 pages in which many of our liberties are removed from us. It's a war on the Bill of Rights. It came out 20 days after 9/11. That meant it was already written. You don't write it that fast. So that was in preparation. That's a coincidence that it was just sitting there, suspending (UNINTELLIGIBLE) corpus and all sorts of things that are un-American.
CARVILLE: Let me paraphrase, what your saying, they are using the war of terrorism as a pretext to deny American citizen rights?
VIDAL: The fact that we may be struck again by whoever it was who did it, yes, Mr. Bow tie I do believe it was Osama bin Laden, who was an Arabian.
(CROSSTALK)
VIDAL: All of the people...
CARLSON: Mr. Vidal, Mr. Turtleneck, I if can call you that, you just said a second ago in an indirect way that the patriot act was written before 9/11 but it's just a coincidence. But your implication is the federal government knew that 9/11 was going to happen. That's what you're implying why don't you just say it.
VIDAL: If I thought it, could prove it, I would say it. I suspect it, but I don't really think it. We know nothing. You missed the point to my little book which was I was setting up some of the charges that could be brought against George W. Bush when he comes to be impeached by the House of Representatives. He swore on oath to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States. He swore that as all presidents do. Well the United States is we, the people and Congress assemble. We were not protected at 9/11. He was warned by everybody from Mossad to President Putin in advance. We have stacks of warnings that came in.
CARLSON: OK. Unfortunately.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Vidal we going to have to end it. We are completely out of time. You live in Italy. Please come and visit us in our country more often. We appreciate having you, thank you very much.
VIDAL: It's always good to have the turtleneck and the bow tie.
CARLSON: Up next! Not only is there foreign policy annoying, their wine is no longer as good as ours. Boycotting France, a grassroots movement. You can sign up here. Later, we'll debate whether marriage makes a mockery of your sex life. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington.
As ambassadors get paid to do, the U.S. ambassador to France today tried to smooth over differences between our two countries saying, "I think Americans like the French a lot." When the crowd stopped laughing, Ambassador Howard Leach went on to dismiss the possibility of a U.S. boycott of French products, like cheese and wine and mineral water, quoting again, "It's an emotional isolated reaction."
Here to add to this emotion are Justin Vaisse of the Brookings Institution and Dave Bossie, president of Citizens United.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: In governance to Mr. Bossie's boycott, would you dim those German lights right now? Because we don't want them shining on him. These lights were made in Germany, so we'll dim them temporarily. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Mr. Bossy, I want to show you something that appeared in "The Washington Post" here and I want to get your opinion on this.
DAVID BOSSIE, CITIZENS UNITED: Sure.
CARVILLE: According to oil industry executives and confidential United States records, Halliburton held stakes in two firms that signed contracts to sell more than $73 million in oil production equipment and spare parts to Iraq while Cheney was chairman and chief executive officer of the Dallas-based company. Two former senior executives of Halliburton subsidiaries say that, as far as they knew, there was no policy against doing business with Iraq."
Now why in the hell can't I drink a glass of French wine and Dick Cheney can make $73 million in dealing with Iraq?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: How does that make sense?
BOSSIE: I don't really thank has anything to do with our boycott. CARVILLE: It doesn't? So, wait, we're supposed to be -- we have a national boycott in place against Iraq. They circumvent it and do $73 million worth of business, and you're telling me I'm a bad American because I drink French wine?
BOSSIE: No. What we're saying is this is a coalition of the willing, James, and obviously, you're not one of the willing. But what we're saying is the Americans can speak and tell the leaders of France and Germany that actions have consequences. What they are doing -- what they are doing -- can you agree with me just for a second? Agree with me, Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who murders his own people, correct?
CARVILLE: I wouldn't do business -- I wouldn't buy Iraqi -- I wouldn't do $73 million worth -- would you do $73 million worth, as Dick Cheney did?
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: James, is he a brutal dictator?
CARVILLE: I think he is a brutal dictator. I will not drink Iraqi wine.
BOSSIE: Then the French and the Germans...
JUSTIN VAISSE, BROOKINS INSTITUTION: I agree.
BOSSIE: The French and the Germans are the only ones between us and the Iraqi people being liberated.
CARLSON: But you know, Justin, actually, that's an interesting point. Wait...
VAISSE: So 30 percent of the American people and, you know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: Yes, but here's the problem. France has done $3.1 billion in trade with Iraq since 1996. It's the single largest trading partner for weapons. There is a lot of evidence that France has sold...
VAISSE: For weapons?
CARLSON: That's exactly right. That France has sold chemical and biological weapons components, and we know for certain that France has sold nuclear weapons components. Why should I as an American consumer help to prop up a regime like that of Jacques Chirac with my money, when it's spending that money helping Saddam Hussein?
(APPLAUSE)
VAISSE: The problem with that -- the problem is that you don't quite understand the world that we are living in. We are living in a globalize world.
BOSSIE: We are under attack every day.
VAISSE: And you actually are going with this boycott to American importers, American shareholders, and American jobs, because the reality is that, when you do a boycott, a small boycott like that, you are going to hurt the people that do trade with France here. And they're going to be hurt much more than France. Let me tell you...
CARLSON: But isn't there a moral component? People boycotted South Africa because what South Africa was doing was wrong. So what France is doing is wrong. Why isn't it morally just a boycott terrier (ph), or whatever it is?
VAISSE: You know, for example, last time -- you remember last time I was on the show you showed me a nice bottle of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) saying we were going to boycott that. Well the problem is, that belongs to the Coca-Cola company.
CARLSON: Right. That's why we went to Perrier instead, exactly.
(APPLAUSE)
VAISSE: Right. So that's a very good example...
CARVILLE: This is a German -- my wife gave me this, a (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It's considered by some people to be the finest brand of watches made in the world. Should I throw this damn thing away? It's a pretty expensive watch, I got to tell you.
BOSSIE: I don't think so. I'm not going to throw my German automobile away that I'd sell, but that's there's a for sale sign out on it if you're interested in a Volkswagen.
CARVILLE: OK. What about people in South Carolina? There's a BMW plant in South Carolina. There's a Mercedes plant in Alabama. Look, should these people go to work or should they strike? I mean what are you saying? You don't want me to buy a German watch? Are these bad Americans that are working these plants and feeding their families?
BOSSIE: What we're saying is that this coalition of the willing, people who are interested in making the Germans and the French understand what we're saying, which is enough is enough. You're standing in the way of the Iraqi people being liberated.
CARVILLE: So these auto workers in South Carolina and Alabama are bad Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: James, let the guy answer the question, please.
BOSSIE: You know what, James? The guys who are the hard workers in Alabama and Georgia and South Carolina, what they are...
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: You know what? Because they guys who are in the National Guard and in the Reserves, they're all overseas.
CARVILLE: I don't need a speech. I've been in the Marine Corps. Answer the question.
BOSSIE: And that gives you the credibility to speak on this? Give me a break.
CARVILLE: I'm asking you, are these bad Americans that work at the BMW plant in South Carolina and work at the Mercedes plant in Alabama?
CARLSON: Of course not.
BOSSIE: It's silly what you're even...
CARVILLE: Well I'm not silly. Well you're talking about a boycott.
BOSSIE: That's exactly right.
CARVILLE: If you watch "Schindler's List" you're a bad American? It's owned by a French company.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I want to ask Justin, who is a verified French person, this question. You've heard this debate about boycotting Germany. That's sort of a big deal. I mean there are German car plants in this country. But when you think about boycotting France, what does the -- French products -- that means we're not buying Le Coq Sportif, not drinking Perrier.
It sort of says a lot about the weakened condition of France that a boycott of French products would affect really just wine drinkers and people who wear Le Coq Sportif, whatever that is.
VAISSE: Yes. I think the big problem with the boycott is that you -- you know if Mr. Bossie and a couple of American people want to symbolically deny themselves French cheese that's fine, but I don't think it's going to have a big impact on Chirac. Actually, I think he couldn't care less.
CARLSON: Because France is no longer an economic power.
BOSSIE: Neither did the government of South Africa, the government of Cuba. And let me tell you...
VAISSE: Oh, Cuba is a very good example.
BOSSIE: We've been boycotting them since JFK.
CARVILLE: Mr. Bossie has attacked autoworkers in South Carolina and Alabama.
CARLSON: Oh, come on. CARVILLE: Of course you are. Don't say come on. These are bad Americans, according to you people. According to the patriot correct police, if you buy a German car or drink French wine you're a bad American.
Now this is a bottle of French wine. Not a very good one. I could actually boycott this one this. This is not even a crous bourjois (ph). But say like a nice (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which I like. A (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Am I saying it right?
VAISSE: Yes. And the problem is that if you begin to drink Estonian wine, you're going to have terrible hangovers.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Dave, I want to give you a chance. Dave, we'll give you a chance to apologize to hardworking people in Alabama.
BOSSIE: I thought we were going to have a serious conversation, a serious debate.
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: You just want to yell and scream at me and that's fine.
CARVILLE: I'll scream at you any time I want to, boy.
CARLSON: Dave Bossie, tell us, why should Americans boycott French products?
CARVILLE: Let this guy defend himself.
CARLSON: Why should they boycott French products?
BOSSIE: It's very simple. We have been saying -- and I said it earlier in the show -- this is simply to make the governments of France and Germany understand that they are the only ones standing in between the liberation of the Iraqi people and Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship. What we are saying is this is an easy opportunity for the Americans to speak with their wallets and just simply not buy French products.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: Well you're a good guy from South Carolina...
CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are out of time.
CARVILLE: Feed your family and take care of them.
CARLSON: Dave Bossie, I'm sorry, we're out of time. Good luck with your boycott. Justin, good luck. I guess you're not doing a boycott. You should, though.
Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.
VAISSE: Thanks.
CARLSON: Next, the author of a book that reviewers are encouraging women to not read aloud to their husbands. And in some cases, not to read at all.
Later, in our "Quote of the Day," a prominent southern senator offers some down home advice to Hollywood. You're watching CROSSFIRE on CNN, the most trusted name in news. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. After exhausted research, CROSSFIRE's determined that in spite of popular belief the British do have sex. At least up until marriage.
Our next guest is a British journalist and critic whose very funny first novel probed the question, "Is Sex Bad for Marriage?" I've got nothing to say on this, because I don't need that kind of trouble when I get home. So in the CROSSFIRE from London, the author of "I Don't Know How She Does It," Allison Pearson.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Allison Pearson, thanks for joining us. I want to put up on the screen -- I'm not sure if you can see it, but I'll read it aloud -- it's on page seven, right at the very beginning of your novel. And Kate Reddy (ph), who is the protagonist of your book, says this.
She says, "If I stay in the bathroom long enough, Richard" -- her husband -- "will fall asleep and will not try to have sex with me. If we don't have sex, I can skip a bath in the morning. If I skip the bath, I will have time to start on the e-mails that have built up while I've been away." Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
It's really kind of a poignant line that suggests that a lot of women now choose e-mail over sex. Do you think that's true and if so, why?
ALLISON PEARSON, AUTHOR, "I DON'T KNOW HOW SHE DOES IT": Well, I think she's a very, very tired woman. She has an exhausting job and she's suffering from what many of us in the west are suffering from, a time famine. So she's counting all those precious seconds, and she figures out that if she actually has an orgasm -- I know you guys don't know very much about this, but it makes you very, very tired. So she needs to avoid those at all costs.
CARLSON: Well doesn't she -- she decides -- not to give away the book or to oversimplify it, but in the end she makes a decision that essentially, if she's going to have a happy sex life and really a happy marriage, she's got to stop working so much. Have you taken a lot of abuse for essentially saying that out loud?
PEARSON: No, because I think people think she gives up. To me she doesn't give up. She decides to kind of downsize a bit and just get a life. Throughout the book she's working for a big finance corporation, and it's a very testosterone-driven environment. She's exhausted and she decides to do something that enables her to get a life and to remember her husband's name and the children and so on. And I interviewed a lot of women and that's what they were reporting.
You know when you've got two parents in the family going out to work, they come in, they're yelling instructions at each other. A lot of guys in the states have written to me and said they read the book and said, now I understand why my wife yells at me.
CARVILLE: Well you have this amazing book that's doing amazingly well. There's another book out called "Divorce Busting in a Sex Starved Marriage" by a woman named Michelle Weiner Davis, and she says that many men in marriage don't want to do it. And you're saying many women in marriage don't want to do it.
And then we have a movement here in the United States that you have abstinence before you get married. So it looks like we're at the point in history where you don't have sex before you are married and you don't have sex after you get married. My question is this: Is this some kind of a 30,000-year experiment, or does this run its course? Is it just that maybe that nooky (ph) is not all it's cracked up to be out there?
PEARSON: I was wondering whether the human race was going to end up with a woman just kind of looking at some sperm in a test tube and deciding she was too tired to bother. That would seem to be a pretty bad outlook. I went to visit a friend with a newborn baby today and they were doing just fine, so I think people are still doing it enough.
CARVILLE: Enough. Well I mean, I'm kind of a holdout. I'm 58, and I'm kind of the old school. I'm not ready to throw the towel in. But is sex overrated? Is that -- can you do without all of that grunting and sweating and screaming and yelling and all that stuff? Is it overrated in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in some people's opinion?
PEARSON: Well, I think you'd know being that advanced age that people used to get married in order to have sex. I think my generation gets married not in order to stop having sex, but to have children. And children, as we know, are the enemy of sex.
I have a 7-year-old daughter who, when I kiss her dad, says, "Mommy don't do that, it gives me a tummy ache." So I think because both parents are involved in the child rearing, it's hard to find time for yourself.
CARVILLE: Well I'm the oldest of eight children. My parents had seven kids after me. So I didn't have that problem.
CARLSON: Well, Allison Pearson, don't we simply have to make a value judgement and say, you know, a happy home life, a happy marriage, sex even, is maybe more important than just about any job jou you could have? PEARSON: Yes, I know. I can see that. But I mean, who's going to not work? I mean Kate (ph), in my book, she's the main bread winner in the house. I mean it's pretty hard for her to give up, you know? I happen to think that corporations could cut parents a break and give them a little bit more time off to procreate.
CARLSON: So you would favor some sort of sex leave, then?
PEARSON: Absolutely. I would. Yes.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: One of the things that this administration -- we're always talking about tax cuts. Is there any way that we could kind of get a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tax cut, that maybe you could get a tax credit? I mean, would that help marriage or something like that? I mean, maybe every time you do it you could get -- would that be a good idea?
PEARSON: Well, you know in Sweden they're paying people now to have babies. So I think that may be the next step. In Britain now we have a really bad falling birthrate. I mean one in five women are not having kids because they're so overworked, I think. And so maybe being paid to have sex is the logical step, I think.
CARLSON: Or maybe there's a problem with English men. Allison Pearson, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming on. The book is "I Don't Know How She Does It."
CARVILLE: Thank you so much.
CARLSON: Thank you, Allison.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Some of our viewers are even joining the French bashing from earlier in the program, and good for them. We'll let one of them do that in the "Fireback."
But next, in our "Quote of the Day," he isn't Jed Clampett and doesn't want Hollywood to find a real one. We'll explain. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Come and listen to my story about a man named Zell. The senator from Georgia is giving Hollywood some hell. Before CBS starts shooting something crude, Zell Miller is asking nicely for a change in attitude.
As (UNINTELLIGIBLE) CROSSFIRE, CBS is on a hillbilly hunt throughout the South to cast a reality TV show based on "The Beverly Hillbillies" But on the floor of the U.S. Senate today, Zell Miller asked the network president, Les Moonves, not to make fun of poor people. And it's our "Quote of the Day." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: What CBS ask CEO Moonves propose to do with this cracker comedy is bigotry, pure and simple. CBS, Viacom, Mr. Moonves, I plead with you to call off your hillbilly hunt. Make your big bucks some other way. Appeal to the best in America and not the worst. Give bigotry no sanction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: I guess Senator Miller and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I agree with him on this and I've been fighting this fight on two different (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: Well, I must say, I love it when you see what members of Senate actually do in the Senate. They talk about reality TV.
No, I agree. I mean, look, Zell Miller is a very smart guy, as you know. You worked for him. And I think this is a problem. The people he's talking about, the hillbillies, actually vote Republican. And part of the reason they do is because they think...
CARVILLE: I wish he had as much passion about the deficit and the economy as he did about this hillbilly thing. But he gets a lot of passion for the deficit.
CARLSON: That's probably an insult. But I didn't quite get it.
In any case, next in "Fireback," a viewer suggests the perfect way to ensure the future of the United Nations. You won't want to miss it. It's clever. We'll see you in a second.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. And we've had our turn, now it's your turn. We go to "Fireback," where you get to tell us what you think.
"Instead of putting American servicemen and women in harm's way, wouldn't it be easier to send the Bush economic team to Iraq? Given what this team has done for our economy, it stands to reason they could destroy Saddam as well, prompting a revolution as well." Dale Adams, Franklin, Ohio.
(APPLAUSE)
Dale, it's a good idea, but they keep changing them so fast we'd have to go out and try to locate all of the ones that have been (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: I love this idea that the treasury secretary is in charge of the economy. That's pretty amusing.
Mike from Anderson, Missouri, writes, "There are two things I cannot stand: First, people who are intolerant of other's race or culture. And, second, the French."
Mike, I think you speak for all of us. Don't you think, James?
CARVILLE: Actually, I like the French. I'm French myself and, you know...
CARLSON: Oh, now you admit your conflict. OK. Now that we've already done the segment.
CARVILLE: As are most of my friends in Louisiana. There's a ton of French people in Louisiana and a ton of them all around the country. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mexico and Hispanics (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: It's not an assault on the Hispanics.
CARVILLE: "Bush keeps paying billions to countries and then claims they're his friends and allies against Iraq. It reminds me of the pathetic fellow who hires a high-priced call-girl for his high school reunion and then tells everybody she's his girlfriend." Thomas Grinnell, San Jose, California.
CARLSON: Now what kind of high school did you go to if people are hiring hookers for their reunion?
CARVILLE: I didn't go to high school in San Jose, California. I went to high school in Donaldsonville, Louisiana.
CARLSON: I bet they didn't hire hookers for reunions there. OK. Next up is Don Riggs of Aledo, Texas, writes, "Could it be time to sell the U.N. to Comedy Central? What better place for such a joke?"
That's actually a pretty -- you know the sad thing in all of this is? The U.N. really will be toothless by the end of the process. And I think everyone agrees that's a sad thing.
CARVILLE: You know the think about you all is you all hate everybody in the world so much, that you'll be glad to see it gone. I actually like people around the world and I think Americans are much better off not attacking Mexicans and not attacking Frenchmen and not attacking Germans and not attacking Canadians.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I' m from old Europe, that's Germany. My name is (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I've got this question. Since the French policy is so bad, shouldn't the U.S. send back the Statue of Liberty?
CARLSON: Well that's actually under discussion. Look, the point is not to send back the Statue of Liberty or actually to boycott decent French wine. The point is to send a message that French intransigence really matters and that people may die because of it. It's not a joke.
It may make France feel better in the short term, but it has serious consequences. It's a big deal.
CARVILLE: There's French bashing, German bashing, Mexican bashing. All of this is the silliest thing that you can imagine. And what everybody needs to do is know the French are very fine people, they're very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people.
If you've ever heard of a place called (UNINTELLIGIBLE), if you've ever heard of the French resistance, and all this is idiotic and the arrogance of this administration and...
CARLSON: The French resistance? Let me resist what you were saying and go to our next question -- yes.
RACHEL ESTRADA: Hello. My name is Rachel Estrada (ph) and I'm from Los Angeles, California. And my question is for both of you. If marriage is so bad for sex, what do you see is the future of relationships?
CARLSON: Well I don't think it needs to be. I mean the point is that it's important to put your family life, your marriage, ahead of your job. And that goes for both sexes, men and women. And it's a shame when people don't.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Actually, I'm kind of reminded of those that some of them in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Some woman got up and said, "I'd rather commit adultery than have a beer." And the guy in the back said, "Hell, who wouldn't?"
So I don't know. Somehow or another I think that sex has survived a lot. It will be around past my predicted devised date of...
CARLSON: And speaking of reproduction...
CARVILLE: Yes, indeed. We know that Sam Feist, senior executive producer of CROSSFIRE and our boss, is seen holding the newest addition to the world, Haley Anne Feist (ph). Congratulations.
From the left, I'm James Carville.
CARLSON: Americans are still doing it. That's right. From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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Authors Allison Pearson, Gore Vidal>
