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CNN Crossfire
Analysis of Bush's Speech From the Abraham Lincoln Tonight
Aired May 01, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, he's on the carrier. He's addressing the nation tonight. Never mind the technicalities. Is this the victory lap? The commander-in-chief with his troops. Is this a preview of the president's reelection campaign?
And you won't believe who is praising Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. We're counting down to President Bush's don't-call-it-a-victory address to the nation tonight, which will come live from the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. The president has arrived safely aboard that ship. At 9:00 Eastern, he will inform the nation that major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In his words -- from the spokesman's words rather: "Mark the importance of this moment."
We're going to start marking it right now, and even perhaps be a little smug about this moment. Our guest, Illinois Democratic Congresswoman Janice Schakowsky, she is her party's chief deputy whip. Also, Arizona Republican Congressman J.D. Hayworth.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Thank you both for joining us from the Hill. Particularly from coming down here from the Hill. It's always good to have you in person with a live audience.
Congressman Hayworth, we have a few excerpts from our president's speech. We've all been just looking at them in the last few minutes. Two words that I promise you we won't hear from him, though, "mushroom cloud." Two words he used to build support for this war.
He told us, our president, that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear program, and he used the words "mushroom cloud" that we may see if we don't stop Saddam Hussein. Now, it's clear that our president either was misled himself or that he was misleading us, because there's no, clearly no Iraqi advanced nuclear program, was there?
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: Paul, you were so wrong on this war. You're wrong again right now.
BEGALA: There is an advanced nuclear program in Iraq, Congressman?
HAYWORTH: No, no, no. The fact is, my friend, we need to stop and wait and see what transpires. We've been in the midst of combat operations. We're now about the business of trying to restore order.
BEGALA: But you can't build a nuke in a mobile lab. I'm not talking about (UNINTELLIGIBLE). A nuclear program requires big-ass facility, right?
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: Wow. Are we doing Imus or CROSSFIRE? What did you just call the facility? Huge?
BEGALA: Humongous.
HAYWORTH: OK. That's improving the level of discourse as we continue on here. Let me make a couple of points here.
The jury is still out on weapons of mass destruction. But let's take your example from fantasy world just for a second. Let's say there are no weapons of mass destruction. At the very worst, we have removed one of history's most horrible tyrants who murdered over a million of his citizens. And to somehow, on the left, rally around this WMD or this nuclear threat as being the loan thread to hang on, that is a slender thread, indeed, my friend.
The fact is, we have eliminated a threat. And as we are discovering now, as you and others try to dismiss the notion of any linkage between al Qaeda, other terrorist forces and the government of Iraq, they do exist. We have torn them asunder. And another important step on the war in terror was taken.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Congresswoman, tonight the president will say -- we have excerpts from the president's speech here, and he'll say, "The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it's worth every effort." I think most Americans agree with that; I'm positive most Iraqis do.
On the very day Baghdad was liberated, April 8, the leader of your party in the House, Nancy Pelosi, gave a press conference in which she said essentially it was not worth it, it was too expensive. Probably one of the most cynical things I've ever heard. Wondering when the left stopped caring about human rights.
REP. JANICE SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Well, if you expect us to be repentant about saying that this war was unwise, you're not going to hear it from some of us. And that is because we -- was there ever any doubt that the military effort would be successful? The question was, do we need to go to war against a perceived threat of weapons of mass destruction, a threat to the United States, a threat to their neighbors?
Look, Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator. And do you know what? We call many of our allies -- you could say the same thing about them. We need to, in this 21st century, work with the international community to isolate rogue nations and rogue terrorist organizations, because the technology is there. Inevitably, we need to be part of the world to get rid of brutal dictators.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And we've, in fact, just rid the world of a brutal dictator mere weeks ago. And my question to you remains, was it worth it? Liberating the people of Iraq, was it worth it?
SCHAKOWSKY: Well, was it worth it in terms of the -- talk to the parents of the -- look, our troops -- our troops acted magnificently. The war was shorter than we thought, but we still lost over 100 U.S. lives and how many Iraqi lives?
CARLSON: 1,200.
SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I don't think we know that yet. I don't think we know the full cost of that war and the great cost to our treasury, and the ongoing battle, and the continued threat, because how many terrorists have we created by going it alone in Iraq?
(APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: I'll be happy to answer that question, Jan. We have created far fewer terrorists. There will be a reduction in terrorism, as there has been since September 11, 2001, because the United States has awakened to the threat and told the rest of the world, both in the United Nations, an organization that sadly seems to be captured in some sort of utopia that is Euro centric in its nature, rather than taking a look at eliminating these problems to human rights.
The United States has served notice we will protect our people and we will interests and we have liberated the people of Iraq. Any way you want to look at that, that is an important step forward in human history. And the instant revisionism we got from you that nobody doubted the war wouldn't work, our (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Johnny Apple couldn't wait to write the word "quagmire."
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me ask Congressman Hayworth this question, though. You've now shifted the rational to removing a murderous thug as the purpose of the war. It is certainly the benefit of the war, and thank god he is gone, and we all hope that he's dead. But that's not what our president said. And if the reason was we have to go to war because Saddam Hussein is evil, wasn't he evil when Dick Cheney was selling him oil field equipment and Donald Rumsfeld was (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Wasn't he evil then, Congressman?
HAYWORTH: He has proved to be far more -- you can go back and take a look at history. And in 1979, when the Ba'ath Party came into power -- and of course you and I have discussed this -- a more complete understanding of history remembers that Iran had taken Americans hostage in another time of uncertainty.
BEGALA: This is 1998 to 2000.
HAYWORTH: My friend, what is past is prologue. These are the facts, my friends. We are standing up. At long last, for the American people, we are standing up for liberation.
And the other point made by a CNN analyst, Ken Pollack in his book, "The Threatening Storm." When it comes to weapons of mass destruction, the Iraqis are very clever in terms of hiding things, and they've had over four to five years to hide things because the previous administration took a powder instead of maintaining the inspections.
CARLSON: Let me ask you a quick question here.
SCHAKOWSKY: OK.
CARLSON: Right when the war started on March 20th, you said that Iraq does not pose an imminent threat to its neighbors or to the United States. Just the other day, in April, you said, "I am scared of this administration."
SCHAKOWSKY: That's right.
CARLSON: It sounds like you're more afraid of the Bush administration than you are of Saddam Hussein. Are you?
SCHAKOWSKY: What aim I'm afraid of, this is our first foray now in the doctrine of convention.
CARLSON: So you're not more afraid of the Bush administration than Saddam?
SCHAKOWSKY: Well, are they more evil? No. Am I more afraid of the threat? At the time of the beginning of the war, I believed that Saddam Hussein did not pose an imminent threat to the United States of America. And for us to go in, guns blazing, at that time, I think was a serious mistake.
When I say I'm afraid of this administration, what I mean is this is our first effort on the doctrine of preemption. Are we now going to say make a left turn and go into Syria? Are we going to make a right turn and go into Iran? Are we going to now be the policemen of the world and we're going to go one after another, putting young men and women at risk around the world, alienating...
BEGALA: Congresswoman, we have to take a break. Both the left turns and the right turns are going to stay right here. Everybody stay right here.
And when we come back, we'll turbo charge this debate, if you can imagine, with our "Rapid Fire" segment. The questions are sharp, the answers had better be short, and there are two kind of guests, the quick and the dead.
And then in our "Political Alert," we'll hear the latest from the esteemed senator from Pennsylvania, Rick Santorum. You will not believe what he wrote about gay couples in a fundraising letter. Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. With our president safely tail-hooked aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, major conflict may be over in Iraq, and we are glad about that. But here on CROSSFIRE, of course, the conflict never ends. It's time for "Rapid Fire," the fastest political interview segment in all of television.
Our guests, Arizona Republican Congressman J.D. Hayworth and my party, Democrats, chief deputy whip in the House, Illinois Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.
CARLSON: Congresswoman, right before the war, Pete Stark of California, a fellow Democrat, called the coming war terrorism against Iraq. Do you agree with that?
SCHAKOWSKY: I think it's unwise. I don't want to get into picking words. If you want to discredit Pete Stark because he used a word, a bad idea.
CARLSON: You don't agree?
BEGALA: Bad idea. Right here in our audience, I want to introduce you to a group cadets from West Point, America's finest. We are so honored, ladies and gentlemen, that you are here. Give them a round of applause if you would.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: They are our finest, and I'm thrilled that they are in the audience tonight with us. Our president is today on the USS Abraham Lincoln. Is it right for him to use our troops to risk their lives for our freedom, for his political photo op if he makes a commercial out of this?
HAYWORTH: Wow. You of all people shouldn't be talking about this. Your former boss did this all the time. He didn't hesitate to do it.
BEGALA: He didn't make (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
HAYWORTH: Wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... and we never made an ad about it.
HAYWORTH: Never made an ad about it?
BEGALA: I was aboard the Teddy Roosevelt with President Clinton.
HAYWORTH: There's no political ad being made today. There's not a campaign today.
BEGALA: Good. So our president will not use this in an ad?
HAYWORTH: Now, wait a minute. Stop and think about politics for a second. If the conflict in Iraq would have gone badly, you would be lambasting this president even more than you do right now. You wouldn't try to make political hay out of...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I wouldn't use (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as photo ops. That's what I wouldn't do.
CARLSON: I'm going to break in here with a very quick question. Congresswoman, Howard Dean running for president, he's a Democrat, says he's not certain if Iraq is better off without Saddam. Are you certain it's better off?
SCHAKOWSKY: I think Iraq's better off without Saddam.
BEGALA: Your fellow North Carolina Republican, Congressman Howard Coble...
HAYWORTH: I'm an Arizona Republican.
BEGALA: I'm sorry. You're from North Carolina State, you now serve Arizona. Excuse me for my error. But from North Carolina, in your party, Howard Coble is a congressman. He said the internment of the Japanese Americans was a good thing. Do you agree?
HAYWORTH: Internment of the Japanese Americans? We're talking about war on Iraq? Howard is free to say what he wants to stay. I'll let the statement stand. No, I believe, in retrospect, it would have been better to have more Japanese units fighting in the European theater (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: I agree.
CARLSON: OK. There have been no terrorist attacks this year since the war in Iraq. There were fewer in 2002 than 2001. Will you concede the president's done a good job?
SCHAKOWSKY: There have been a number of terrorist attack in the Mideast that have occurred. I think we are seeing -- we possibly will see more terrorist attacks. If you're trying to link that to the success of the war in Iraq, I think it's a mistake.
It's not over till it's over. And that may be years to come.
CARLSON: And this segment is over, sadly. Congresswoman Janice Schakowsky, thank you very much. Congressman J.D. Hayworth, thank you.
You are looking at live pictures right now from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln. Coming up in the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert," we found the most, the single most forgetful Democratic presidential candidate. We'll tell you his name when we come back.
And you can't possibly go away before learning who has just given Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld his official seal of approval. We'll return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Our guests have gone. The president has landed. Now it's time for us to launch the best political briefing in television, that would be our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Former President Bill Clinton talked so much, so compulsively, so embarrassingly, it's easy to pay no attention at all. In fact, it's advisable. And yet, somehow, perhaps by accident, wise words spilled from his mouth the other day.
In an interview with Dan Balz of "The Washington Post" yesterday, the president said this about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's plans for restructuring the United States military. "I hope when the smoke clears from the Iraq thing, some more attention will be given to Rumsfeld's ideas."
With the "Iraq thing" behind us, will Clinton's fellow Democrats follow his advice? They might, just as soon as they agree on whether Iraq is, in fact, better off without Saddam Hussein.
BEGALA: This is an interesting debate. Rumsfeld is following on what Clinton did in trying to reform the military. The reason that we were lighter, faster, smarter and more technological is because this is the military President Clinton made.
CARLSON: Really?
BEGALA: And I think it performed pretty damn well over there.
CARLSON: Actually, it's interesting. It's interesting, Paul. I knew you were going to say that. Half a million military personnel left from 1992...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because the economy was so strong, they were getting better pay in the private sector. The economy sucks now. CARLSON: No. Because we believed that watching stock market ticking was the important thing. And we didn't believe there were threats from abroad.
BEGALA: That's nonsense.
CARLSON: That is absolutely true. The peace dividend was one of the reasons the economy was doing better. But it turns out there was no real peace. It wasn't real, it wasn't lasting. It was an illusion. Just like the tech bubble.
BEGALA: So Clinton let the military degrade. That's why we won two wars in two years? Clinton did a great job as our president and commander in chief.
North Carolina's Senate yesterday passed legislation placing a temporary freeze on executions in that state while the death penal system is studied. North Carolina's senior U.S. senator, presidential candidate John Edwards, has not endorsed the death penalty time-out pending here in Washington, but 100 Americans, 100 of them, have been sentenced to death and later freed because it was found out they were factually innocent. Not technicalities, not guilty.
We have no count, of course, on how many innocent people have actually been executed. But in my home state of Texas alone, my former governor, George W. Bush, signed 145 death warrants, including for the retarded and a great grandmother. And on every one of them he got nothing more than a 15-minute verbal briefing. Talk about you bet your life.
CARLSON: Yes, I'm not in favor of that. I must say that President Clinton was executing the retarded for political gain long before than President Bush was even governor of Texas. But I do find it interesting that most Democrats now, certainly those running for president, are for the death penalty, with the exception of Al Sharpton, who is against it. But most are for it.
BEGALA: And John Kerry.
CARLSON: He was for it for acts of terrorism. That is not true. He is for the death penalty for acts of terrorism. So it's not a moral question for him.
Simultaneously supporting abortion up to the moment of birth. It's a way for Democrats to say, look, I'm not that liberal, I'm for the death penalty. That's why Al Sharpton is the smart vote for Democrats who still believe. And that's my point.
BEGALA: That is so completely cynical.
CARLSON: It's totally true. It's not cynical at all. It's totally true.
For months, political observers have wondered which Democratic presidential candidate will assume the legacy of Al Gore, not as the party's nominee, but as the politician whose every statement is scrutinized by the press for disassembling, exaggeration and preposterous spin. Now, Senator John Kerry has officially won the Al Gore Internet invention prize. A few months ago, the "Boston Globe" revealed that, contrary to implication, Kerry is not a bit Irish.
This morning, the paper explains that Kerry's first speech in the Senate was not about abortion, as he has often claimed, but in fact about the MX missile, defense. As of today, Kerry still claims to be from Massachusetts. We'll keep you posted. The "Globe" has an ongoing investigation.
BEGALA: This is everything that's wrong with political journalism today. John Kerry began his career in the Senate many, many years ago, and his first statement -- statement turned out to be a written statement, was on abortion rights, not his first speech. But because he used the noun "speech" instead of statement, the "Globe" is crawling up into...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I actually sort of think...
BEGALA: It's absurd. They should have looked into -- the "Globe" was the only paper that looked into the fact that Bush was AWOL from his National Guard duty for a year. That's a much bigger lie.
CARLSON: I tend to kind of agree with you. But I guess if you step back a little bit, the fact that John Kerry in speeches brags about his support for abortion is so revolting, that that itself ought to be...
BEGALA: So vote against him. If you support abortion rights, vote for Kerry. If you oppose abortion rights, vote for Bush. That's what politics is about.
CARLSON: But the fact is, he is under a kind of scrutiny now that no other candidate is. And I do...
BEGALA: And our president ought to be.
CARLSON: Oh please.
BEGALA: He's told more whoppers than all of them combined.
Well the "Philadelphia Inquirer," by the way, has unearthed a fundraising letter from homophobic Republican Senator Rick Santorum. Santorum -- in the letter, he describes this letter as "the most important letter I'd ever write to you."
That is, it's more important to him than 9/11 or terrorism or economy or cancer or the war. This is what the letter is for: a right wing group seeking a constitutional amendment to prohibit committed, loving gay couples from being treated equally under the law. One gay Republican leader said santorum "has an unhealthiness obsession with this issue." But I want to defend Senator Santorum. He has a right to this peculiar, indeed perverse, fixation on the gay life style and it's none of our business why. So just let him...
CARLSON: And I wonder if you'll answer this question for you. Is John Kerry "homophobic"? Is Joe Lieberman homophobic? Is John Edwards?
All of them are against gay marriage, OK? This was a letter against gay marriage. Every leading presidential candidate, with the exception of Al Sharpton, again, is against gay marriage.
BEGALA: Santorum said it was more important than any other issue.
CARLSON: Paul, you're missing it. He's stating the Democratic position. They're against gay marriage, except Al Sharpton.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: By the way, Santorum is the embodiment of the Republican Party. He's number three Republican in the U.S. Senate. And he says gay people are like those who commit incest. He's loopy, he's nuts, he's fixated, he's weird. He's your guy.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You're switching the argument. Call him names, OK.
BEGALA: One of our viewers heard my friend Tucker promise that he would eat his shoes if Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton's book sells a million copies. And one of our viewers has a suggestion of what Tucker could eat for dessert.
We'll let her fire back next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: That's it for us this afternoon on CROSSFIRE. For Tucker Carlson, I am Paul Begala.
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Tonight>
Aired May 1, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, he's on the carrier. He's addressing the nation tonight. Never mind the technicalities. Is this the victory lap? The commander-in-chief with his troops. Is this a preview of the president's reelection campaign?
And you won't believe who is praising Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. We're counting down to President Bush's don't-call-it-a-victory address to the nation tonight, which will come live from the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. The president has arrived safely aboard that ship. At 9:00 Eastern, he will inform the nation that major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In his words -- from the spokesman's words rather: "Mark the importance of this moment."
We're going to start marking it right now, and even perhaps be a little smug about this moment. Our guest, Illinois Democratic Congresswoman Janice Schakowsky, she is her party's chief deputy whip. Also, Arizona Republican Congressman J.D. Hayworth.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Thank you both for joining us from the Hill. Particularly from coming down here from the Hill. It's always good to have you in person with a live audience.
Congressman Hayworth, we have a few excerpts from our president's speech. We've all been just looking at them in the last few minutes. Two words that I promise you we won't hear from him, though, "mushroom cloud." Two words he used to build support for this war.
He told us, our president, that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear program, and he used the words "mushroom cloud" that we may see if we don't stop Saddam Hussein. Now, it's clear that our president either was misled himself or that he was misleading us, because there's no, clearly no Iraqi advanced nuclear program, was there?
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: Paul, you were so wrong on this war. You're wrong again right now.
BEGALA: There is an advanced nuclear program in Iraq, Congressman?
HAYWORTH: No, no, no. The fact is, my friend, we need to stop and wait and see what transpires. We've been in the midst of combat operations. We're now about the business of trying to restore order.
BEGALA: But you can't build a nuke in a mobile lab. I'm not talking about (UNINTELLIGIBLE). A nuclear program requires big-ass facility, right?
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: Wow. Are we doing Imus or CROSSFIRE? What did you just call the facility? Huge?
BEGALA: Humongous.
HAYWORTH: OK. That's improving the level of discourse as we continue on here. Let me make a couple of points here.
The jury is still out on weapons of mass destruction. But let's take your example from fantasy world just for a second. Let's say there are no weapons of mass destruction. At the very worst, we have removed one of history's most horrible tyrants who murdered over a million of his citizens. And to somehow, on the left, rally around this WMD or this nuclear threat as being the loan thread to hang on, that is a slender thread, indeed, my friend.
The fact is, we have eliminated a threat. And as we are discovering now, as you and others try to dismiss the notion of any linkage between al Qaeda, other terrorist forces and the government of Iraq, they do exist. We have torn them asunder. And another important step on the war in terror was taken.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Congresswoman, tonight the president will say -- we have excerpts from the president's speech here, and he'll say, "The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it's worth every effort." I think most Americans agree with that; I'm positive most Iraqis do.
On the very day Baghdad was liberated, April 8, the leader of your party in the House, Nancy Pelosi, gave a press conference in which she said essentially it was not worth it, it was too expensive. Probably one of the most cynical things I've ever heard. Wondering when the left stopped caring about human rights.
REP. JANICE SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Well, if you expect us to be repentant about saying that this war was unwise, you're not going to hear it from some of us. And that is because we -- was there ever any doubt that the military effort would be successful? The question was, do we need to go to war against a perceived threat of weapons of mass destruction, a threat to the United States, a threat to their neighbors?
Look, Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator. And do you know what? We call many of our allies -- you could say the same thing about them. We need to, in this 21st century, work with the international community to isolate rogue nations and rogue terrorist organizations, because the technology is there. Inevitably, we need to be part of the world to get rid of brutal dictators.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And we've, in fact, just rid the world of a brutal dictator mere weeks ago. And my question to you remains, was it worth it? Liberating the people of Iraq, was it worth it?
SCHAKOWSKY: Well, was it worth it in terms of the -- talk to the parents of the -- look, our troops -- our troops acted magnificently. The war was shorter than we thought, but we still lost over 100 U.S. lives and how many Iraqi lives?
CARLSON: 1,200.
SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I don't think we know that yet. I don't think we know the full cost of that war and the great cost to our treasury, and the ongoing battle, and the continued threat, because how many terrorists have we created by going it alone in Iraq?
(APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: I'll be happy to answer that question, Jan. We have created far fewer terrorists. There will be a reduction in terrorism, as there has been since September 11, 2001, because the United States has awakened to the threat and told the rest of the world, both in the United Nations, an organization that sadly seems to be captured in some sort of utopia that is Euro centric in its nature, rather than taking a look at eliminating these problems to human rights.
The United States has served notice we will protect our people and we will interests and we have liberated the people of Iraq. Any way you want to look at that, that is an important step forward in human history. And the instant revisionism we got from you that nobody doubted the war wouldn't work, our (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Johnny Apple couldn't wait to write the word "quagmire."
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me ask Congressman Hayworth this question, though. You've now shifted the rational to removing a murderous thug as the purpose of the war. It is certainly the benefit of the war, and thank god he is gone, and we all hope that he's dead. But that's not what our president said. And if the reason was we have to go to war because Saddam Hussein is evil, wasn't he evil when Dick Cheney was selling him oil field equipment and Donald Rumsfeld was (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Wasn't he evil then, Congressman?
HAYWORTH: He has proved to be far more -- you can go back and take a look at history. And in 1979, when the Ba'ath Party came into power -- and of course you and I have discussed this -- a more complete understanding of history remembers that Iran had taken Americans hostage in another time of uncertainty.
BEGALA: This is 1998 to 2000.
HAYWORTH: My friend, what is past is prologue. These are the facts, my friends. We are standing up. At long last, for the American people, we are standing up for liberation.
And the other point made by a CNN analyst, Ken Pollack in his book, "The Threatening Storm." When it comes to weapons of mass destruction, the Iraqis are very clever in terms of hiding things, and they've had over four to five years to hide things because the previous administration took a powder instead of maintaining the inspections.
CARLSON: Let me ask you a quick question here.
SCHAKOWSKY: OK.
CARLSON: Right when the war started on March 20th, you said that Iraq does not pose an imminent threat to its neighbors or to the United States. Just the other day, in April, you said, "I am scared of this administration."
SCHAKOWSKY: That's right.
CARLSON: It sounds like you're more afraid of the Bush administration than you are of Saddam Hussein. Are you?
SCHAKOWSKY: What aim I'm afraid of, this is our first foray now in the doctrine of convention.
CARLSON: So you're not more afraid of the Bush administration than Saddam?
SCHAKOWSKY: Well, are they more evil? No. Am I more afraid of the threat? At the time of the beginning of the war, I believed that Saddam Hussein did not pose an imminent threat to the United States of America. And for us to go in, guns blazing, at that time, I think was a serious mistake.
When I say I'm afraid of this administration, what I mean is this is our first effort on the doctrine of preemption. Are we now going to say make a left turn and go into Syria? Are we going to make a right turn and go into Iran? Are we going to now be the policemen of the world and we're going to go one after another, putting young men and women at risk around the world, alienating...
BEGALA: Congresswoman, we have to take a break. Both the left turns and the right turns are going to stay right here. Everybody stay right here.
And when we come back, we'll turbo charge this debate, if you can imagine, with our "Rapid Fire" segment. The questions are sharp, the answers had better be short, and there are two kind of guests, the quick and the dead.
And then in our "Political Alert," we'll hear the latest from the esteemed senator from Pennsylvania, Rick Santorum. You will not believe what he wrote about gay couples in a fundraising letter. Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. With our president safely tail-hooked aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, major conflict may be over in Iraq, and we are glad about that. But here on CROSSFIRE, of course, the conflict never ends. It's time for "Rapid Fire," the fastest political interview segment in all of television.
Our guests, Arizona Republican Congressman J.D. Hayworth and my party, Democrats, chief deputy whip in the House, Illinois Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.
CARLSON: Congresswoman, right before the war, Pete Stark of California, a fellow Democrat, called the coming war terrorism against Iraq. Do you agree with that?
SCHAKOWSKY: I think it's unwise. I don't want to get into picking words. If you want to discredit Pete Stark because he used a word, a bad idea.
CARLSON: You don't agree?
BEGALA: Bad idea. Right here in our audience, I want to introduce you to a group cadets from West Point, America's finest. We are so honored, ladies and gentlemen, that you are here. Give them a round of applause if you would.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: They are our finest, and I'm thrilled that they are in the audience tonight with us. Our president is today on the USS Abraham Lincoln. Is it right for him to use our troops to risk their lives for our freedom, for his political photo op if he makes a commercial out of this?
HAYWORTH: Wow. You of all people shouldn't be talking about this. Your former boss did this all the time. He didn't hesitate to do it.
BEGALA: He didn't make (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
HAYWORTH: Wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... and we never made an ad about it.
HAYWORTH: Never made an ad about it?
BEGALA: I was aboard the Teddy Roosevelt with President Clinton.
HAYWORTH: There's no political ad being made today. There's not a campaign today.
BEGALA: Good. So our president will not use this in an ad?
HAYWORTH: Now, wait a minute. Stop and think about politics for a second. If the conflict in Iraq would have gone badly, you would be lambasting this president even more than you do right now. You wouldn't try to make political hay out of...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I wouldn't use (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as photo ops. That's what I wouldn't do.
CARLSON: I'm going to break in here with a very quick question. Congresswoman, Howard Dean running for president, he's a Democrat, says he's not certain if Iraq is better off without Saddam. Are you certain it's better off?
SCHAKOWSKY: I think Iraq's better off without Saddam.
BEGALA: Your fellow North Carolina Republican, Congressman Howard Coble...
HAYWORTH: I'm an Arizona Republican.
BEGALA: I'm sorry. You're from North Carolina State, you now serve Arizona. Excuse me for my error. But from North Carolina, in your party, Howard Coble is a congressman. He said the internment of the Japanese Americans was a good thing. Do you agree?
HAYWORTH: Internment of the Japanese Americans? We're talking about war on Iraq? Howard is free to say what he wants to stay. I'll let the statement stand. No, I believe, in retrospect, it would have been better to have more Japanese units fighting in the European theater (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: I agree.
CARLSON: OK. There have been no terrorist attacks this year since the war in Iraq. There were fewer in 2002 than 2001. Will you concede the president's done a good job?
SCHAKOWSKY: There have been a number of terrorist attack in the Mideast that have occurred. I think we are seeing -- we possibly will see more terrorist attacks. If you're trying to link that to the success of the war in Iraq, I think it's a mistake.
It's not over till it's over. And that may be years to come.
CARLSON: And this segment is over, sadly. Congresswoman Janice Schakowsky, thank you very much. Congressman J.D. Hayworth, thank you.
You are looking at live pictures right now from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln. Coming up in the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert," we found the most, the single most forgetful Democratic presidential candidate. We'll tell you his name when we come back.
And you can't possibly go away before learning who has just given Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld his official seal of approval. We'll return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Our guests have gone. The president has landed. Now it's time for us to launch the best political briefing in television, that would be our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Former President Bill Clinton talked so much, so compulsively, so embarrassingly, it's easy to pay no attention at all. In fact, it's advisable. And yet, somehow, perhaps by accident, wise words spilled from his mouth the other day.
In an interview with Dan Balz of "The Washington Post" yesterday, the president said this about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's plans for restructuring the United States military. "I hope when the smoke clears from the Iraq thing, some more attention will be given to Rumsfeld's ideas."
With the "Iraq thing" behind us, will Clinton's fellow Democrats follow his advice? They might, just as soon as they agree on whether Iraq is, in fact, better off without Saddam Hussein.
BEGALA: This is an interesting debate. Rumsfeld is following on what Clinton did in trying to reform the military. The reason that we were lighter, faster, smarter and more technological is because this is the military President Clinton made.
CARLSON: Really?
BEGALA: And I think it performed pretty damn well over there.
CARLSON: Actually, it's interesting. It's interesting, Paul. I knew you were going to say that. Half a million military personnel left from 1992...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because the economy was so strong, they were getting better pay in the private sector. The economy sucks now. CARLSON: No. Because we believed that watching stock market ticking was the important thing. And we didn't believe there were threats from abroad.
BEGALA: That's nonsense.
CARLSON: That is absolutely true. The peace dividend was one of the reasons the economy was doing better. But it turns out there was no real peace. It wasn't real, it wasn't lasting. It was an illusion. Just like the tech bubble.
BEGALA: So Clinton let the military degrade. That's why we won two wars in two years? Clinton did a great job as our president and commander in chief.
North Carolina's Senate yesterday passed legislation placing a temporary freeze on executions in that state while the death penal system is studied. North Carolina's senior U.S. senator, presidential candidate John Edwards, has not endorsed the death penalty time-out pending here in Washington, but 100 Americans, 100 of them, have been sentenced to death and later freed because it was found out they were factually innocent. Not technicalities, not guilty.
We have no count, of course, on how many innocent people have actually been executed. But in my home state of Texas alone, my former governor, George W. Bush, signed 145 death warrants, including for the retarded and a great grandmother. And on every one of them he got nothing more than a 15-minute verbal briefing. Talk about you bet your life.
CARLSON: Yes, I'm not in favor of that. I must say that President Clinton was executing the retarded for political gain long before than President Bush was even governor of Texas. But I do find it interesting that most Democrats now, certainly those running for president, are for the death penalty, with the exception of Al Sharpton, who is against it. But most are for it.
BEGALA: And John Kerry.
CARLSON: He was for it for acts of terrorism. That is not true. He is for the death penalty for acts of terrorism. So it's not a moral question for him.
Simultaneously supporting abortion up to the moment of birth. It's a way for Democrats to say, look, I'm not that liberal, I'm for the death penalty. That's why Al Sharpton is the smart vote for Democrats who still believe. And that's my point.
BEGALA: That is so completely cynical.
CARLSON: It's totally true. It's not cynical at all. It's totally true.
For months, political observers have wondered which Democratic presidential candidate will assume the legacy of Al Gore, not as the party's nominee, but as the politician whose every statement is scrutinized by the press for disassembling, exaggeration and preposterous spin. Now, Senator John Kerry has officially won the Al Gore Internet invention prize. A few months ago, the "Boston Globe" revealed that, contrary to implication, Kerry is not a bit Irish.
This morning, the paper explains that Kerry's first speech in the Senate was not about abortion, as he has often claimed, but in fact about the MX missile, defense. As of today, Kerry still claims to be from Massachusetts. We'll keep you posted. The "Globe" has an ongoing investigation.
BEGALA: This is everything that's wrong with political journalism today. John Kerry began his career in the Senate many, many years ago, and his first statement -- statement turned out to be a written statement, was on abortion rights, not his first speech. But because he used the noun "speech" instead of statement, the "Globe" is crawling up into...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I actually sort of think...
BEGALA: It's absurd. They should have looked into -- the "Globe" was the only paper that looked into the fact that Bush was AWOL from his National Guard duty for a year. That's a much bigger lie.
CARLSON: I tend to kind of agree with you. But I guess if you step back a little bit, the fact that John Kerry in speeches brags about his support for abortion is so revolting, that that itself ought to be...
BEGALA: So vote against him. If you support abortion rights, vote for Kerry. If you oppose abortion rights, vote for Bush. That's what politics is about.
CARLSON: But the fact is, he is under a kind of scrutiny now that no other candidate is. And I do...
BEGALA: And our president ought to be.
CARLSON: Oh please.
BEGALA: He's told more whoppers than all of them combined.
Well the "Philadelphia Inquirer," by the way, has unearthed a fundraising letter from homophobic Republican Senator Rick Santorum. Santorum -- in the letter, he describes this letter as "the most important letter I'd ever write to you."
That is, it's more important to him than 9/11 or terrorism or economy or cancer or the war. This is what the letter is for: a right wing group seeking a constitutional amendment to prohibit committed, loving gay couples from being treated equally under the law. One gay Republican leader said santorum "has an unhealthiness obsession with this issue." But I want to defend Senator Santorum. He has a right to this peculiar, indeed perverse, fixation on the gay life style and it's none of our business why. So just let him...
CARLSON: And I wonder if you'll answer this question for you. Is John Kerry "homophobic"? Is Joe Lieberman homophobic? Is John Edwards?
All of them are against gay marriage, OK? This was a letter against gay marriage. Every leading presidential candidate, with the exception of Al Sharpton, again, is against gay marriage.
BEGALA: Santorum said it was more important than any other issue.
CARLSON: Paul, you're missing it. He's stating the Democratic position. They're against gay marriage, except Al Sharpton.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: By the way, Santorum is the embodiment of the Republican Party. He's number three Republican in the U.S. Senate. And he says gay people are like those who commit incest. He's loopy, he's nuts, he's fixated, he's weird. He's your guy.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You're switching the argument. Call him names, OK.
BEGALA: One of our viewers heard my friend Tucker promise that he would eat his shoes if Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton's book sells a million copies. And one of our viewers has a suggestion of what Tucker could eat for dessert.
We'll let her fire back next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: That's it for us this afternoon on CROSSFIRE. For Tucker Carlson, I am Paul Begala.
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