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CNN Crossfire
Where Will Congress Cut Spending to Offset Tax Cut?
Aired May 09, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: "CROSSFIRE." On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, give me a tax break.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not satisfied.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're facing deficits as far as the eye can see.
ANNOUNCER: So where does Congress cut spending to offset a big tax cut?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These offsets are as rare as a fat chicken running around Baghdad.
ANNOUNCER: Plus -- the former first golfer gets trumped.
Today on "CROSSFIRE." Live from The George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, CROSSFIRE: Welcome to "CROSSFIRE," the special afternoon edition.
The House of Representatives, today, passed a $550 billion tax cut, which is to say the Republicans in the House voted to give their fellow Americans, you and me, a tax break. Democrats, as always, argued that government doesn't take enough.
The House bill is considerably larger than the $350 billion measure, making its way to the U.S. Senate. That bill raises some taxes while lowering others -- leading to the question "Who gets the tax breaks?"
Help us answer that. We're joined by New York Democratic Congressman, Charlie Rangel of Harlem, and California Republican, David Dreier, the chairman of the House Rules Committee.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, CROSSFIRE: Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of our GW students who, maybe, don't remember "Schoolhouse Rocks," -- for a bill to become a law, the House has to vote on it. But before the House votes on it, you, Mr. Chairman, the chairman of the Rules Committee, has to say "It's OK for the House to vote on it."
Why didn't you let Charlie Rangel and his Democrats vote on their version of a jobs package and only allow a vote on the Republican question?
REP. DAVID DREIER (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, RULES COMMITTEE: Great question, Paul. And I will tell you -- we worked hard to try and make it an order. But Charlie came forward with a proposal that was so outrageous...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) In fact, the plan would have cost our goal -- eliminated our goal of trying to create jobs because it increased taxes, which he could do and that would have been allowable.
But let me tell you a couple things it did do, Paul. It put into play something very important that we want to do. We want to make sure that those who are hurting most, faced with job loss, get their unemployment benefits.
But it was not part of our job creation effort here. This was called the Jobs and Growth Tax Act. We focused on that. And so, because we would have had to waive virtually every rule under the sun in the House of Representatives to make his proposal an order -- even though I did work very hard to try to make it an order -- we concluded it was so outrageous we could not, in good conscience, actually do that.
CARLSON: Thank you, Congressman, for trying as hard as you did. We appreciate it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Congressman Rangel...
REP. CHARLIE RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) If he tried hard, he must have thought I was right because he would not do anything that he thought was wrong.
CARLSON: Well, let's talk about what the American people think. Actually, Mr. Rangel, if you could respond to these polls we've taken here at CNN. The American people...
RANGEL: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it's not just Harlem, it's Upper West Side, it's the whole upper Manhattan -- even though I look like Harlem, but I'm really...
CARLSON: No, I was picking the best part of your district, Congressman.
RANGEL: We have equality in the country, in New York City, and in my district.
DREIER: Charlie, a quarter of a million people from the Dominican Republic -- correct? CARLSON: In your district?
RANGEL: Yes, as a matter of fact, it is.
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Rangel, here's what our polls show. CNN asks this week "What do you think of the president's tax cuts?'
"Good idea," say the majority, 52 percent.
Forty-seven percent think the tax cuts will help the economy, as opposed to 31 percent who don't.
Overall, 51 percent of the Americans think that Bush is doing a better job in the economy than Democrats -- beating by 12 points. Are the American people stupid or just badly informed, in your opinion?
RANGEL: Stupidity -- I would limit that to those people who have not been in politics.
CARLSON: The American people, then, are dumb?
RANGEL: Well, I assume you haven't been in politics, but -- the three of us have. The three of us have, and believe me, and you'll learn this, you want to reach a conclusion, you pay for the pollster that you take.
CARLSON: CNN took this poll. The Republican party did not. These are nonpartisan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) polls.
RANGEL: One of the things, though, if he's saying that he had such a great bill -- that it was a tax cut -- why did he get on the floor, instead of saying, "Listen, we have a lot of rich friends that we promised a long time ago that we want to give them a break."
They didn't do that. They came to the floor, and they said this was a jobs bill. Jobs, jobs, jobs they said.
So all we said was, "Well, listen. If you think you have a great idea ..." -- which they didn't get it until Tuesday morning, that's when the bill was unfolded and we had to vote on it in committee on Tuesday afternoon.
But having said that, the only thing we asked, Tucker, was "Why don't you give us a chance to share our idea."
He said the idea was so bad, nonetheless he fought for the idea.
DREIER: No. No. The idea was creative and interesting and thoughtful, but it was so outrageous that you tried to violate every single rule in the House of Representatives, and we do live with the rules (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Charlie. You know that very well.
RANGEL: Yes. So much so that the chairman of the committee asked him and the committee to waive all points of orders for their bill so that if you felt that their bill wasn't outrageous -- and we picked six things that were outside of the budget rules -- didn't you waive it for the majority?
BEGALA: I'm sorry. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Pull back just a little bit, though, and ask instead about this question of jobs.
Our president promised us the last time you all passed a trillion dollar tax cut for the very rich, it would create jobs. Well, it cost a half million jobs before September 11. Another million and a half after September 11 have left the economy. How is it working out -- the last tax cut?
DREIER: As you and I have discussed here on many times in the past, when was it that the economic downturn began? We all know --
BEGALA: March of 2001.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Paul, you know full well --
BEGALA: The last quarter of 2000, we created new jobs -- a net plus. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
DREIER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) You know very well that the downturn began the last two quarters of 2000. It began the last two quarters of 2000, and we all know that during that campaign -- I'm giving you the facts.
BEGALA: The fact are that the --
DREIER: The facts are the downturn began at the waning days of the Clinton administration. The president inherited this. Now, what happened?
The president said, during the campaign, Paul, three instances would lead to deficit spending and problems. If we have war, recession, or a national emergency. You know full well that we had all three.
The tax cut has not cost a nickel. We need this tax cut. We need -- No, it has not cost --
RANGEL: How much money do we have to borrow?
It's designed to generate revenue to the treasury.
You said the other day, Charlie, that cutting the rate on capital gains does not create a single job. We know full well that every time we've cut the top rate on capital gains, it's increased jobs and generated revenue to the treasury. That's what's going to happen this time again, Charlie.
CARLSON: If I showed you a poll that says that most Americans don't think the Democratic party has any idea how to run the economy. Here's one example.
Democrats say rising deficits lead to higher interest rates. Deficit has gone up in the last couple of years. Interest rates are at historic lows. What does that tell you?
RANGEL: All we're say is that we had a jobs bill, and we thought that we should have an opportunity to be heard. And also --
CARLSON: Yes,but the economic principle there.
RANGEL: The Republicans are saying that the thing was outrageous, that we wanted to give some assistance to the millions of people that are without jobs, without health insurance, without hope -- you know. We thought providing some money --
DREIER: Charlie, that's exactly what we want to do. We want to provide hope to them. You turned this into a massive spending bill. It was never designed to be that.
RANGEL: This bill was paid for, because what we do -- and they haven't the courage to do it -- we said, "Mr. and Mrs. America, we have no idea how much the victory in Iraq is going to cost. We don't know how long the troops are going to be there so we freeze the top two rates until such time as we get a better -- "
DREIER: And that jeopardizes our chance to have the revenues (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Coming up next. These guys are going to continue to go at it in our rapid-fire segment, where there are only two kind of guests -- the quick and the dead.
Later, we will ask why President Bush is jetting off to a millionaire's mansion, flying right over thousands of Americans who lost their homes in this week's storms.
Plus -- a few modest suggestions for what else Bill Bennett might have done with that $8 million he gambled away. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Time now for "Rapid Fire," where we move faster than a lobbyist on his way to a Bush fund-raising reception. Our guests, House Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier, California Republican, and New York Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel. .
CARLSON: Mr. Rangel, two leading Democratic presidential candidates had proposed cutting the payroll tax, which would, of course, undermine Social Security. You are not for that, are you?
RANGEL: I don't think they're talking about cutting the tax. They're talking about doing something to hold the working people (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Yes, so that's not holding them back. We can do what we want. We can reimburse them. But what we're saying is that if you can see fit to give money to the richest of people saying that you're stimulating the economy and creating jobs, we don't believe that they'll be buying the washing machines and a car. But if you give it to the people who are working, where they have the highest sense -- part of the working dollars going to Medicare and Social Security, you can give them a refundable credit and allow them to get some relief. These are the people that pay their rent, their tuition, their health care.
DREIER: Charlie, that's exactly what we do. That's exactly what we do. Let me just say, regardless of what Charlie said, is exactly what we do, Paul, with increasing the child tax credit.
BEGALA: Very briefly, who gets more money out of your plan? Who gets more money out of your plan, a waitress making $20,000 a year working her tail off or an heiress sitting on her lazy ass getting $20 million from inheritance? Who gets more? Who gets more money?
DREIER: Who gets more money? I'll tell you who's going to benefit.
BEGALA: The waitress of the heiress?
DREIER: I'll tell you who's going to benefit most, the person who is seeking a job, because opportunity is going to be created because of this. That's the one who benefits most.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: Do you know what they said about unemployment compensation?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... one last question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... increasing the child tax credit to $1,000?
RANGEL: You bet your life. But let me tell you, listen to this, their package, their package ends in two years.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Next in the "CROSSFIRE Political Alert," Howard Dean makes his case for ideological purity and joining him on the political plank, which he is now walking.
Plus, the latest embarrassment, just the latest embarrassment, by the former first president. We'll explain in a minute. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. The weekend is calling, but before you head out to the package store, there's this. It's our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."
Former Vermont governor and current Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean has some advice for his own party: Kick out all the normal people. Quote, "Everywhere I go," Dean told a crowd in Kansas yesterday, "Democrats around the country are just as mad at the Democrats as the Republicans. The problem," said Dean, too many moderates in the party. The Democratic Party isn't left wing enough."
Dean, who is an enthusiastic supporter of partial birth abortion, who also says he doesn't know if overthrowing Saddam Hussein was such a good idea after all, believes all Democrats should be more like him. Not surprisingly, most Republicans agree. With more candidate like Howard Dean, the Republican majority could go on forever.
BEGALA: Forgive me if I don't take you as the Dean campaign spokesman, Tucker.
CARLSON: I'm trying to help, Paul. I'm trying to help, but nobody listens.
BEGALA: First off, we've invited him on the program. I can't wait to have him on. Governor Dean, join us here on CROSSFIRE. We'll let you answer Tucker's charges. But more interestingly, this weekend is the Log Cabin Republican meeting, the gay Republican group meeting here in Washington.
President Bush won't be there. Leading Republicans from Bush administration will not be there. Why? Because they're Rick Santorum Republicans, homophobic crazies.
CARLSON: This whole Rick Santorum...
BEGALA: ... who want to attack good people...
CARLSON: I wish...
BEGALA: He's the number three Republican in the Senate.
CARLSON: No, but I wish you could at least address the question at hand, and that is should the Democratic Party move farther left into the Saddam Hussein camp, or what? I'm being serious. It's an interesting question.
BEGALA: No. The question is will the Republicans treat gay people like people.
CARLSON: Oh, please.
BEGALA: President Bush, speaking of which, not only will he not be at the Log Cabin Republicans, he'll be climbing on his plane very soon to fly over the Midwest, where tornadoes and floods have killed at least 40 people and left hundreds homeless. Of course, Mr. Bush won't be stopping there, he won't be consoling the families. He won't even be pretending that he gives a darn. Mr. Bush will instead be flying far above their pain on his way to the mansion of one of his millionaire prep school buddies in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Indeed, Mr. Bush has eliminated funding for Project Impact, a Clinton program that prepares communities to deal with natural disasters. Apparently, Mr. Bush says he only likes to visit places where they let him dress up and play fighter jock.
This is his job. It's part of his job to do that. CARLSON: That actually was incredibly nasty. But it's interesting that Bush goes on the USS Abraham Lincoln, gives this sort of stirring speech to the troops there, and Republicans whine and moan about this is an outrageous photo op, and it's a waste of taxpayer dollars. He did stop in Oklahoma, and I'm agnostic about whether he ought to, but if he did, I bet Democrats would be complaining about how this was a waste of taxpayer dollars and another photo op.
BEGALA: It's part of his job.
CARLSON: I mean, please!
BEGALA: It's part of the president's job to be there in bad times as well as good. So God bless him for going to the Lincoln. Why hasn't he gone to Arlington to bury one of those 137 men who died in that war that he led us into?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You're obsessed with the guy.
BEGALA: He's our president, and he ought to do all of the job, not just the fun parts.
CARLSON: OK. Speaking of presidents, when he left office two and a half years ago, Bill Clinton promised us he'd spend the rest of his life working to cure AIDS in Africa, among many other good deeds. Instead, predictably, Clinton has become just another bloated rich guy raking in millions speaking to big businesses, mostly overseas. Now, the former president has decided to go all the way and join Donald Trump's country club. Literally, we are not making this up. Clinton paid a reported $250,000, money that could have fed a lot of orphans in Kinshasa, for the privilege of hanging around with other members of the gauche nouveau riche at the Trump National Golf Course in New York. "I'm proud to have him," explained the Donald, and of course the feeling must be mutual.
BEGALA: Gauche nouveau riche. These are the three French words that Tucker knows. This is so illustrative of the right. They respect inherited wealth. If you just sit down on your butt and inherit money, like Bush Jr., oh, they love and respect you. If you go out there and earn an honest living like Bill Clinton, they want to attack you, because they want to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: There's nothing honest about making $500,000 a speech for speaking to rich guys in Dubai, and then joining Donald Trump's country club.
BEGALA: We give speeches for money. It's an honorable thing to do. It's called work, as opposed to junior, who has a big fat trust fund.
I'm not even going to respond.
CARLSON: If you're defending him joining Donald Trump's -- hanging out with Donald Trump...
BEGALA: Gauche nouveau riche? I've got to get my French dictionary out.
CARLSON: It's vulgar, it's big business guys you claim to hate he's hanging around.
BEGALA: God bless him. Have fun on the golf course, Mr. President.
The "Los Angeles Times" today estimates that with the $8 million holy roller turned high roller Bill Bennett lost he could have bought tickets to Disneyland for 216,000 underprivileged children, or erase the entire deficits of both the Los Angeles and Orange County Catholic dioceses in California, or provided food and water and health care and schooling for 25,640 impoverished children through WorldVision. He could have even given away 380,952 copies of his very fine "Book of Virtues." Or how about buying 2.3 million boxes of thin mints cookies from the Girl Scouts? Should Bennett have spent his family's millions on cookies instead of bookies? Well, maybe, but then again, gluttony is a vice, isn't it, Bill?
CARLSON: Or he could have joined Donald Trump's country club 32 times over. And I'm glad he didn't. I mean, I feel sorry for Bill Bennett. Obviously, you shouldn't waste $8 million in slot machines. It's kind of sad. Kind of hard to beat up on him, though.
BEGALA: It's easy to beat up on him, actually, because he's a hypocrite. I feel sorry for anybody who has a problem. He plainly does. But I feel less sorry for a guy who lectures the rest of us about the morality of who we fall in love with and what music we listen to and whether we support Bill Clinton, and then goes out and wastes $8 million.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's hypocrisy.
CARLSON: Really? For someone so against getting into other people's private lives, you're...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's not his private life. It's his public books and lectures and moralizing I don't like, not his private conduct.
Well, next in our "Fireback" segment, one of our viewers is tired of President Bush's top gun act. She suggests maybe another weapon would be more appropriate. Stay with us and learn what it is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now for "Fireback." We're already getting e-mails about that debate we just had on tax cuts and the president's package. Here's one of them. James Furry in my home state of Texas writes: "If they do away with the tax on dividends, the fat cat at the top would not pay tax on his income, but Joe Worker at the bottom would have to pay tax on his. Income should be income from whatever source." Well, that's a very profound and wise statement, James.
CARLSON: Fat cat and Joe Worker. I think it's time to think of some new rhetoric, don't you think?
BEGALA: Why not tax wealth the same we tax work?
CARLSON: Fat cat and Joe Worker.
Kitty Johnson of Brookesville, Florida writes: "Tucker, you're too nice a person to get a heart attack. Find something less stressful than CROSSFIRE!" Kitty, I'm glad you brought that up. I want you to stay tuned for my new show on the Food Network, it's sort of a souffle show.
BEGALA: More with the French!
CARLSON: That's exactly right. I'm secretly kind of pro-French, I will admit it, and I will on the Food Network when my show debuts.
BEGALA: Wonderful. I can't wait. I hope it's like a cooking lite thing. Tucker has a great heart. He's in terrific shape, and he's only next week will be turning 58, or something like that.
CARLSON: Thirty-four.
BEGALA: OK, Lois Erwin in Waldwick, New Jersey writes: "Bush is no top gun. I think one has to have done something brave to be considered a top gun. I call Bush a water pistol." Well...
CARLSON: And I'm sure Lois Erwin has a long and distinguished resume of brave acts.
BEGALA: That e-mail was a brave act in John Ashcroft's America, believe me.
CARLSON: Yes, quite brave. Barbara and Charlie Muchnok of Latrobe, Pennsylvania -- that sounds like a real name, right? "Paul, you're the most intelligent, articulate, witty and charming man on television. You hold your own against the right. Keep up the great work!"
BEGALA: Thank you, aunt Barbara and uncle Charlie.
CARLSON: And my question is, do you think that's a real later?
BEGALA: No, that's aunt Barbara and uncle Charlie.
CARLSON: The Muchnoks.
BEGALA: No, people in Latrobe love me because that's where they brew Chateau Latrobe, as we call it.
CARLSON: It's a great beer. Yes? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Amy Patts (ph) from (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Ohio. My question is, the tax cut will mostly create jobs in the service sector. How does this help someone like me graduating from college this year with a debt from college loans?
CARLSON: Well, first of all, it's not clear that, you know, it would simply create jobs in the service sector or even mostly, but there's nothing, you know, wrong with working in the service industry. I certainly did for a long time. Doesn't mean you have to spend the rest of your life there. But it's not a bad place to work. I can tell you from firsthand experience.
BEGALA: The real question is, which drives the economy? Republicans believe wealthy, elite investors do. Democrats believe ordinary consumers do. So the Republicans have a plan that helps out elite investors. We tried that two years ago; it didn't do any good. I think we ought to do what Clinton tried, which is helping ordinary consumers.
CARLSON: Joe Worker.
BEGALA: And didn't the economy boom under Clinton?
CARLSON: Fat cat, Joe Worker. Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Les (ph) in Derby, Connecticut. And as a small-business owner, very small, my employees, me, find that having money in their pocket through tax reductions would be much more helpful than the trickle-down economics that didn't work in the '80s.
BEGALA: There we go, Les (ph), I'm with you 100 percent.
CARLSON: Well, you, sir, are clearly a fat cat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing personal.
BEGALA: There is no bigger fat cat in America than Warren Buffett, the most successful investor in America. He doesn't like the Republican plan. He thinks it won't help the economy, and it's unfair.
CARLSON: He's immune from fluctuations in the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Mary Ann (ph) from Fairfax, Virginia. And I want to know when did a tax cut ever help anyone making less than $100,000?
CARLSON: Actually, it's interesting. That's obviously sort of a cynical point of view. Most people clearly, according to the poll CNN has been doing, don't agree with that. The president's tax cut has far more support than you would ever think from reading the editorial pages of sophisticated daily newspapers.
BEGALA: That is true, and that's because the president's such a gifted salesman. He has persuaded people it will help them, when, in fact, it will not.
CARLSON: He's actually not a very good salesman.
BEGALA: He's a great salesman. But in truth, it's not going to help anybody who's sitting in this audience, it's going to help Bush's fat cats.
CARLSON: The fat cats.
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala.
CARLSON: And from the right, home of the fat cats, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next week for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 9, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: "CROSSFIRE." On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, give me a tax break.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not satisfied.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're facing deficits as far as the eye can see.
ANNOUNCER: So where does Congress cut spending to offset a big tax cut?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These offsets are as rare as a fat chicken running around Baghdad.
ANNOUNCER: Plus -- the former first golfer gets trumped.
Today on "CROSSFIRE." Live from The George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, CROSSFIRE: Welcome to "CROSSFIRE," the special afternoon edition.
The House of Representatives, today, passed a $550 billion tax cut, which is to say the Republicans in the House voted to give their fellow Americans, you and me, a tax break. Democrats, as always, argued that government doesn't take enough.
The House bill is considerably larger than the $350 billion measure, making its way to the U.S. Senate. That bill raises some taxes while lowering others -- leading to the question "Who gets the tax breaks?"
Help us answer that. We're joined by New York Democratic Congressman, Charlie Rangel of Harlem, and California Republican, David Dreier, the chairman of the House Rules Committee.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, CROSSFIRE: Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of our GW students who, maybe, don't remember "Schoolhouse Rocks," -- for a bill to become a law, the House has to vote on it. But before the House votes on it, you, Mr. Chairman, the chairman of the Rules Committee, has to say "It's OK for the House to vote on it."
Why didn't you let Charlie Rangel and his Democrats vote on their version of a jobs package and only allow a vote on the Republican question?
REP. DAVID DREIER (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, RULES COMMITTEE: Great question, Paul. And I will tell you -- we worked hard to try and make it an order. But Charlie came forward with a proposal that was so outrageous...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) In fact, the plan would have cost our goal -- eliminated our goal of trying to create jobs because it increased taxes, which he could do and that would have been allowable.
But let me tell you a couple things it did do, Paul. It put into play something very important that we want to do. We want to make sure that those who are hurting most, faced with job loss, get their unemployment benefits.
But it was not part of our job creation effort here. This was called the Jobs and Growth Tax Act. We focused on that. And so, because we would have had to waive virtually every rule under the sun in the House of Representatives to make his proposal an order -- even though I did work very hard to try to make it an order -- we concluded it was so outrageous we could not, in good conscience, actually do that.
CARLSON: Thank you, Congressman, for trying as hard as you did. We appreciate it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Congressman Rangel...
REP. CHARLIE RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) If he tried hard, he must have thought I was right because he would not do anything that he thought was wrong.
CARLSON: Well, let's talk about what the American people think. Actually, Mr. Rangel, if you could respond to these polls we've taken here at CNN. The American people...
RANGEL: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it's not just Harlem, it's Upper West Side, it's the whole upper Manhattan -- even though I look like Harlem, but I'm really...
CARLSON: No, I was picking the best part of your district, Congressman.
RANGEL: We have equality in the country, in New York City, and in my district.
DREIER: Charlie, a quarter of a million people from the Dominican Republic -- correct? CARLSON: In your district?
RANGEL: Yes, as a matter of fact, it is.
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Rangel, here's what our polls show. CNN asks this week "What do you think of the president's tax cuts?'
"Good idea," say the majority, 52 percent.
Forty-seven percent think the tax cuts will help the economy, as opposed to 31 percent who don't.
Overall, 51 percent of the Americans think that Bush is doing a better job in the economy than Democrats -- beating by 12 points. Are the American people stupid or just badly informed, in your opinion?
RANGEL: Stupidity -- I would limit that to those people who have not been in politics.
CARLSON: The American people, then, are dumb?
RANGEL: Well, I assume you haven't been in politics, but -- the three of us have. The three of us have, and believe me, and you'll learn this, you want to reach a conclusion, you pay for the pollster that you take.
CARLSON: CNN took this poll. The Republican party did not. These are nonpartisan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) polls.
RANGEL: One of the things, though, if he's saying that he had such a great bill -- that it was a tax cut -- why did he get on the floor, instead of saying, "Listen, we have a lot of rich friends that we promised a long time ago that we want to give them a break."
They didn't do that. They came to the floor, and they said this was a jobs bill. Jobs, jobs, jobs they said.
So all we said was, "Well, listen. If you think you have a great idea ..." -- which they didn't get it until Tuesday morning, that's when the bill was unfolded and we had to vote on it in committee on Tuesday afternoon.
But having said that, the only thing we asked, Tucker, was "Why don't you give us a chance to share our idea."
He said the idea was so bad, nonetheless he fought for the idea.
DREIER: No. No. The idea was creative and interesting and thoughtful, but it was so outrageous that you tried to violate every single rule in the House of Representatives, and we do live with the rules (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Charlie. You know that very well.
RANGEL: Yes. So much so that the chairman of the committee asked him and the committee to waive all points of orders for their bill so that if you felt that their bill wasn't outrageous -- and we picked six things that were outside of the budget rules -- didn't you waive it for the majority?
BEGALA: I'm sorry. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Pull back just a little bit, though, and ask instead about this question of jobs.
Our president promised us the last time you all passed a trillion dollar tax cut for the very rich, it would create jobs. Well, it cost a half million jobs before September 11. Another million and a half after September 11 have left the economy. How is it working out -- the last tax cut?
DREIER: As you and I have discussed here on many times in the past, when was it that the economic downturn began? We all know --
BEGALA: March of 2001.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Paul, you know full well --
BEGALA: The last quarter of 2000, we created new jobs -- a net plus. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
DREIER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) You know very well that the downturn began the last two quarters of 2000. It began the last two quarters of 2000, and we all know that during that campaign -- I'm giving you the facts.
BEGALA: The fact are that the --
DREIER: The facts are the downturn began at the waning days of the Clinton administration. The president inherited this. Now, what happened?
The president said, during the campaign, Paul, three instances would lead to deficit spending and problems. If we have war, recession, or a national emergency. You know full well that we had all three.
The tax cut has not cost a nickel. We need this tax cut. We need -- No, it has not cost --
RANGEL: How much money do we have to borrow?
It's designed to generate revenue to the treasury.
You said the other day, Charlie, that cutting the rate on capital gains does not create a single job. We know full well that every time we've cut the top rate on capital gains, it's increased jobs and generated revenue to the treasury. That's what's going to happen this time again, Charlie.
CARLSON: If I showed you a poll that says that most Americans don't think the Democratic party has any idea how to run the economy. Here's one example.
Democrats say rising deficits lead to higher interest rates. Deficit has gone up in the last couple of years. Interest rates are at historic lows. What does that tell you?
RANGEL: All we're say is that we had a jobs bill, and we thought that we should have an opportunity to be heard. And also --
CARLSON: Yes,but the economic principle there.
RANGEL: The Republicans are saying that the thing was outrageous, that we wanted to give some assistance to the millions of people that are without jobs, without health insurance, without hope -- you know. We thought providing some money --
DREIER: Charlie, that's exactly what we want to do. We want to provide hope to them. You turned this into a massive spending bill. It was never designed to be that.
RANGEL: This bill was paid for, because what we do -- and they haven't the courage to do it -- we said, "Mr. and Mrs. America, we have no idea how much the victory in Iraq is going to cost. We don't know how long the troops are going to be there so we freeze the top two rates until such time as we get a better -- "
DREIER: And that jeopardizes our chance to have the revenues (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Coming up next. These guys are going to continue to go at it in our rapid-fire segment, where there are only two kind of guests -- the quick and the dead.
Later, we will ask why President Bush is jetting off to a millionaire's mansion, flying right over thousands of Americans who lost their homes in this week's storms.
Plus -- a few modest suggestions for what else Bill Bennett might have done with that $8 million he gambled away. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Time now for "Rapid Fire," where we move faster than a lobbyist on his way to a Bush fund-raising reception. Our guests, House Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier, California Republican, and New York Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel. .
CARLSON: Mr. Rangel, two leading Democratic presidential candidates had proposed cutting the payroll tax, which would, of course, undermine Social Security. You are not for that, are you?
RANGEL: I don't think they're talking about cutting the tax. They're talking about doing something to hold the working people (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Yes, so that's not holding them back. We can do what we want. We can reimburse them. But what we're saying is that if you can see fit to give money to the richest of people saying that you're stimulating the economy and creating jobs, we don't believe that they'll be buying the washing machines and a car. But if you give it to the people who are working, where they have the highest sense -- part of the working dollars going to Medicare and Social Security, you can give them a refundable credit and allow them to get some relief. These are the people that pay their rent, their tuition, their health care.
DREIER: Charlie, that's exactly what we do. That's exactly what we do. Let me just say, regardless of what Charlie said, is exactly what we do, Paul, with increasing the child tax credit.
BEGALA: Very briefly, who gets more money out of your plan? Who gets more money out of your plan, a waitress making $20,000 a year working her tail off or an heiress sitting on her lazy ass getting $20 million from inheritance? Who gets more? Who gets more money?
DREIER: Who gets more money? I'll tell you who's going to benefit.
BEGALA: The waitress of the heiress?
DREIER: I'll tell you who's going to benefit most, the person who is seeking a job, because opportunity is going to be created because of this. That's the one who benefits most.
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: Do you know what they said about unemployment compensation?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... one last question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... increasing the child tax credit to $1,000?
RANGEL: You bet your life. But let me tell you, listen to this, their package, their package ends in two years.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Next in the "CROSSFIRE Political Alert," Howard Dean makes his case for ideological purity and joining him on the political plank, which he is now walking.
Plus, the latest embarrassment, just the latest embarrassment, by the former first president. We'll explain in a minute. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. The weekend is calling, but before you head out to the package store, there's this. It's our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."
Former Vermont governor and current Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean has some advice for his own party: Kick out all the normal people. Quote, "Everywhere I go," Dean told a crowd in Kansas yesterday, "Democrats around the country are just as mad at the Democrats as the Republicans. The problem," said Dean, too many moderates in the party. The Democratic Party isn't left wing enough."
Dean, who is an enthusiastic supporter of partial birth abortion, who also says he doesn't know if overthrowing Saddam Hussein was such a good idea after all, believes all Democrats should be more like him. Not surprisingly, most Republicans agree. With more candidate like Howard Dean, the Republican majority could go on forever.
BEGALA: Forgive me if I don't take you as the Dean campaign spokesman, Tucker.
CARLSON: I'm trying to help, Paul. I'm trying to help, but nobody listens.
BEGALA: First off, we've invited him on the program. I can't wait to have him on. Governor Dean, join us here on CROSSFIRE. We'll let you answer Tucker's charges. But more interestingly, this weekend is the Log Cabin Republican meeting, the gay Republican group meeting here in Washington.
President Bush won't be there. Leading Republicans from Bush administration will not be there. Why? Because they're Rick Santorum Republicans, homophobic crazies.
CARLSON: This whole Rick Santorum...
BEGALA: ... who want to attack good people...
CARLSON: I wish...
BEGALA: He's the number three Republican in the Senate.
CARLSON: No, but I wish you could at least address the question at hand, and that is should the Democratic Party move farther left into the Saddam Hussein camp, or what? I'm being serious. It's an interesting question.
BEGALA: No. The question is will the Republicans treat gay people like people.
CARLSON: Oh, please.
BEGALA: President Bush, speaking of which, not only will he not be at the Log Cabin Republicans, he'll be climbing on his plane very soon to fly over the Midwest, where tornadoes and floods have killed at least 40 people and left hundreds homeless. Of course, Mr. Bush won't be stopping there, he won't be consoling the families. He won't even be pretending that he gives a darn. Mr. Bush will instead be flying far above their pain on his way to the mansion of one of his millionaire prep school buddies in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Indeed, Mr. Bush has eliminated funding for Project Impact, a Clinton program that prepares communities to deal with natural disasters. Apparently, Mr. Bush says he only likes to visit places where they let him dress up and play fighter jock.
This is his job. It's part of his job to do that. CARLSON: That actually was incredibly nasty. But it's interesting that Bush goes on the USS Abraham Lincoln, gives this sort of stirring speech to the troops there, and Republicans whine and moan about this is an outrageous photo op, and it's a waste of taxpayer dollars. He did stop in Oklahoma, and I'm agnostic about whether he ought to, but if he did, I bet Democrats would be complaining about how this was a waste of taxpayer dollars and another photo op.
BEGALA: It's part of his job.
CARLSON: I mean, please!
BEGALA: It's part of the president's job to be there in bad times as well as good. So God bless him for going to the Lincoln. Why hasn't he gone to Arlington to bury one of those 137 men who died in that war that he led us into?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You're obsessed with the guy.
BEGALA: He's our president, and he ought to do all of the job, not just the fun parts.
CARLSON: OK. Speaking of presidents, when he left office two and a half years ago, Bill Clinton promised us he'd spend the rest of his life working to cure AIDS in Africa, among many other good deeds. Instead, predictably, Clinton has become just another bloated rich guy raking in millions speaking to big businesses, mostly overseas. Now, the former president has decided to go all the way and join Donald Trump's country club. Literally, we are not making this up. Clinton paid a reported $250,000, money that could have fed a lot of orphans in Kinshasa, for the privilege of hanging around with other members of the gauche nouveau riche at the Trump National Golf Course in New York. "I'm proud to have him," explained the Donald, and of course the feeling must be mutual.
BEGALA: Gauche nouveau riche. These are the three French words that Tucker knows. This is so illustrative of the right. They respect inherited wealth. If you just sit down on your butt and inherit money, like Bush Jr., oh, they love and respect you. If you go out there and earn an honest living like Bill Clinton, they want to attack you, because they want to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: There's nothing honest about making $500,000 a speech for speaking to rich guys in Dubai, and then joining Donald Trump's country club.
BEGALA: We give speeches for money. It's an honorable thing to do. It's called work, as opposed to junior, who has a big fat trust fund.
I'm not even going to respond.
CARLSON: If you're defending him joining Donald Trump's -- hanging out with Donald Trump...
BEGALA: Gauche nouveau riche? I've got to get my French dictionary out.
CARLSON: It's vulgar, it's big business guys you claim to hate he's hanging around.
BEGALA: God bless him. Have fun on the golf course, Mr. President.
The "Los Angeles Times" today estimates that with the $8 million holy roller turned high roller Bill Bennett lost he could have bought tickets to Disneyland for 216,000 underprivileged children, or erase the entire deficits of both the Los Angeles and Orange County Catholic dioceses in California, or provided food and water and health care and schooling for 25,640 impoverished children through WorldVision. He could have even given away 380,952 copies of his very fine "Book of Virtues." Or how about buying 2.3 million boxes of thin mints cookies from the Girl Scouts? Should Bennett have spent his family's millions on cookies instead of bookies? Well, maybe, but then again, gluttony is a vice, isn't it, Bill?
CARLSON: Or he could have joined Donald Trump's country club 32 times over. And I'm glad he didn't. I mean, I feel sorry for Bill Bennett. Obviously, you shouldn't waste $8 million in slot machines. It's kind of sad. Kind of hard to beat up on him, though.
BEGALA: It's easy to beat up on him, actually, because he's a hypocrite. I feel sorry for anybody who has a problem. He plainly does. But I feel less sorry for a guy who lectures the rest of us about the morality of who we fall in love with and what music we listen to and whether we support Bill Clinton, and then goes out and wastes $8 million.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's hypocrisy.
CARLSON: Really? For someone so against getting into other people's private lives, you're...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's not his private life. It's his public books and lectures and moralizing I don't like, not his private conduct.
Well, next in our "Fireback" segment, one of our viewers is tired of President Bush's top gun act. She suggests maybe another weapon would be more appropriate. Stay with us and learn what it is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now for "Fireback." We're already getting e-mails about that debate we just had on tax cuts and the president's package. Here's one of them. James Furry in my home state of Texas writes: "If they do away with the tax on dividends, the fat cat at the top would not pay tax on his income, but Joe Worker at the bottom would have to pay tax on his. Income should be income from whatever source." Well, that's a very profound and wise statement, James.
CARLSON: Fat cat and Joe Worker. I think it's time to think of some new rhetoric, don't you think?
BEGALA: Why not tax wealth the same we tax work?
CARLSON: Fat cat and Joe Worker.
Kitty Johnson of Brookesville, Florida writes: "Tucker, you're too nice a person to get a heart attack. Find something less stressful than CROSSFIRE!" Kitty, I'm glad you brought that up. I want you to stay tuned for my new show on the Food Network, it's sort of a souffle show.
BEGALA: More with the French!
CARLSON: That's exactly right. I'm secretly kind of pro-French, I will admit it, and I will on the Food Network when my show debuts.
BEGALA: Wonderful. I can't wait. I hope it's like a cooking lite thing. Tucker has a great heart. He's in terrific shape, and he's only next week will be turning 58, or something like that.
CARLSON: Thirty-four.
BEGALA: OK, Lois Erwin in Waldwick, New Jersey writes: "Bush is no top gun. I think one has to have done something brave to be considered a top gun. I call Bush a water pistol." Well...
CARLSON: And I'm sure Lois Erwin has a long and distinguished resume of brave acts.
BEGALA: That e-mail was a brave act in John Ashcroft's America, believe me.
CARLSON: Yes, quite brave. Barbara and Charlie Muchnok of Latrobe, Pennsylvania -- that sounds like a real name, right? "Paul, you're the most intelligent, articulate, witty and charming man on television. You hold your own against the right. Keep up the great work!"
BEGALA: Thank you, aunt Barbara and uncle Charlie.
CARLSON: And my question is, do you think that's a real later?
BEGALA: No, that's aunt Barbara and uncle Charlie.
CARLSON: The Muchnoks.
BEGALA: No, people in Latrobe love me because that's where they brew Chateau Latrobe, as we call it.
CARLSON: It's a great beer. Yes? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Amy Patts (ph) from (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Ohio. My question is, the tax cut will mostly create jobs in the service sector. How does this help someone like me graduating from college this year with a debt from college loans?
CARLSON: Well, first of all, it's not clear that, you know, it would simply create jobs in the service sector or even mostly, but there's nothing, you know, wrong with working in the service industry. I certainly did for a long time. Doesn't mean you have to spend the rest of your life there. But it's not a bad place to work. I can tell you from firsthand experience.
BEGALA: The real question is, which drives the economy? Republicans believe wealthy, elite investors do. Democrats believe ordinary consumers do. So the Republicans have a plan that helps out elite investors. We tried that two years ago; it didn't do any good. I think we ought to do what Clinton tried, which is helping ordinary consumers.
CARLSON: Joe Worker.
BEGALA: And didn't the economy boom under Clinton?
CARLSON: Fat cat, Joe Worker. Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Les (ph) in Derby, Connecticut. And as a small-business owner, very small, my employees, me, find that having money in their pocket through tax reductions would be much more helpful than the trickle-down economics that didn't work in the '80s.
BEGALA: There we go, Les (ph), I'm with you 100 percent.
CARLSON: Well, you, sir, are clearly a fat cat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing personal.
BEGALA: There is no bigger fat cat in America than Warren Buffett, the most successful investor in America. He doesn't like the Republican plan. He thinks it won't help the economy, and it's unfair.
CARLSON: He's immune from fluctuations in the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Mary Ann (ph) from Fairfax, Virginia. And I want to know when did a tax cut ever help anyone making less than $100,000?
CARLSON: Actually, it's interesting. That's obviously sort of a cynical point of view. Most people clearly, according to the poll CNN has been doing, don't agree with that. The president's tax cut has far more support than you would ever think from reading the editorial pages of sophisticated daily newspapers.
BEGALA: That is true, and that's because the president's such a gifted salesman. He has persuaded people it will help them, when, in fact, it will not.
CARLSON: He's actually not a very good salesman.
BEGALA: He's a great salesman. But in truth, it's not going to help anybody who's sitting in this audience, it's going to help Bush's fat cats.
CARLSON: The fat cats.
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala.
CARLSON: And from the right, home of the fat cats, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next week for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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