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CNN Crossfire
Lawmakers Trying to Avoid Redistricting Vote; Steny Hoyer Endorses Dick Gephardt
Aired May 14, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, why aren't you all at work, partners?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not going to be an accomplice to a partisan power grab.
ANNOUNCER: How about if the governor says pretty please?
GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: We welcome any Democrat in the legislature who wants to work in good faith.
ANNOUNCER: We'll get to the bottom of who's messing with Texas.
Plus, see Dick. See Dick run. See Dick get support. Can Dick win? Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. This afternoon we're going to defy conventional wisdom and in fact mess with Texas. But first we get a chance to mess with everything else in the best political briefing in television, that is our CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
Quick. Name the nine Democrats running for president. Are you stumped? Don't worry. Most people can't even name one.
According to the latest CBS News poll, 66 percent of Americans were unable to recall the name of a single Democratic presidential candidate. The results were only two points better among registered Democrats, who presumably would be paying some attention to their own party, but apparently they're not.
Remember Dick Gephardt? Ninety-four percent of Americans don't. John Edwards? If so, count yourself among the knowledgeable two percent. Even John Kerry, who is the front runner at the moment, registered with only seven percent of voters and with only five percent of Democratic voters. In other words, Kerry's own base was more likely to forget him, which means it's going to be a great election.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, what it means is that we're 18 months away from the election. Eighteen months before the election of 1992, no one could have mentioned Bill Clinton and the Republicans were dismissing him. And what did he do? Oh, he whipped Bush senior's butt.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, no. It's actually -- that's actually a fair point. It's early for polls like this. However, you do have to wonder why fewer Democrats than Republicans know who John Kerry is.
What does that tell you? If his own party doesn't remember him and the Republicans remember him better, how do you explain this, Paul?
BEGALA: Firs, the Democrats have lives and Republicans are just kind of fixating on the Republican tax machine, which has targeted Kerry.
CARLSON: Nice spin. Yes, OK.
BEGALA: Congresswoman Jane Harmony, a Democrat who supported the war in Iraq, called today for a full accounting of what our government knew about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and when it knew it. President Bush had claimed that Saddam Hussein had 25,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin and 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX gas, none of which has been found.
And the head of the 101st Airborne Division, General David Petraeus, says "There's no question there were chemical weapons years ago. I just don't know whether it was all destroyed years ago." Indeed, before the war, Mr. Bush had intelligence information from a top Iraqi defector saying that all such weapons were destroyed years ago, but he didn't tell us that.
CARLSON: You know, Paul, I've noticed a trend, a theme among Democrats lately. And that's reliance upon conspiracy theories. In the absence of any ideas at all about how to run government, Democrats rely increasingly on Jim Garrison-like theories.
You heard Moran say it's all Jewish groups pushing us to war. You heard liberals say it's all about oil. And now Jane Harmon saying the government must have been withholding evidence.
BEGALA: We know they were. We know for a fact...
CARLSON: This is crazy, Paul. This is crazy. I'm serious.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Husayn Kamil, who is the son-in-law of Saddam Hussein, he defected to the west. And President Bush cited him in his State of the Union address.
CARLSON: One of many sources of intelligence.
BEGALA: Excuse me. Let me finish the point. Bush cited the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of his intelligence that said we had chemical weapons but not the half that said we destroyed them years ago. That's misleading the American people about war and peace. And now 177 Americans are dead.
CARLSON: Well there are thousands of sources of intelligence.
BEGALA: Shame on Bush for misleading us.
CARLSON: It's a mistake.
The Clinton administration is long gone, thank heaven, but its debts remain outstanding. The former president, though now, of course, obscenely rich, still hasn't paid his lawyers for legal work they did years ago. Now it turns out that Clinton's long-time political guru and friend -- that would be Dick Morris -- has an open tab as well.
According to Reuters, Morris, who is a Fox News contributor, is also one of the top tax delinquents in the state of Connecticut, with more than $250,000 in unpaid income taxes. Morris, you'll remember, resigned from Clinton's service after being caught up in a prostitution scandal. What you may not recall is that the prostitute in question claimed that Morris tried to stiff her on the bill. As we've said before, if you'll do it to your girlfriend, you'll probably do it to the country.
BEGALA: What's most interesting about this is you leave out -- it's important to note that he's a Fox News contributor, which means Fox is the home of not only someone who is alleged to be behind on his taxes -- we'll see if that allegation is true -- but also the home of a reporter who broadcast information about our troop movement.
This is Fox News, the flag-waving network. What a bunch of hypocrites they are.
CARLSON: But I would say it's just telling -- that it's not simply the former president, but it's all the people around him. Why can't liberals pay their bills? If they care so much about the average person, why can't you pay your lawyers? Why can't you pay your taxes? I mean, come on.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Come on, Tucker. That's absurd. Believe me, Dick Morris was Trent Lott's and Jesse Helms' political consultant. Talk to Trent Lott and Jesse Helms.
CARLSON: He ran their White House? Oh, sorry. BEGALA: Laurali (ph) Guillory is the mother of a 6-year-old boy who was savagely murdered in Louisiana. And under Louisiana law, therefore, Ms. Guillory has a right to give the jury in the murder trial a victim impact statement. But prosecutors won't let her.
See, Ms. Guillory says that, while she has not forgiven her child's murderer, she wants him locked away for life, but she opposes the death penalty. Ms. Guillory says that killing her son's killer won't protect children as much as passing new sex offender registration and notification laws. That's what she wants.
But apparently in Louisiana, only crime victims who meet a right wing politically correct test will be allowed to share their pain to the jury. Shame on them.
CARLSON: You know, it's a shame, though, that you need to make this into a partisan issue. I don't care for the death penalty myself. Some of the most enthusiastic practitioners of the death penalty, as you know, are Democrats.
BEGALA: George W. Bush?
CARLSON: I'm not certain that it's a partisan issue. I do think that even you would agree that crime victims don't get to set punishments. I think they ought to have input; she ought to have some input. But they don't get to decide how people are punished.
BEGALA: I absolutely agree.
CARLSON: And I think it's a shame to say it's a right wing thing.
BEGALA: Of course it's a right wing thing.
CARLSON: When Clinton...
BEGALA: If you have the right wing position on the death penalty, Louisiana will let you testify. If you don't, they won't. Every crime victim...
CARLSON: It's not a right wing and a left wing. Joe Lieberman is for the death penalty. Come on.
BEGALA: Every parent of every murdered child suffers equally, I am sure. I can't imagine their pain. But they have an equal right whether they support or oppose the death penalty. They shouldn't have a right wing litmus test.
CARLSON: But it's not right -- your hatred of the right is blinding you.
BEGALA: Of course it's right wing. It's an obvious statement. Do you think it's a liberal prosecutor who won't let her testify against the death penalty, Tucker?
CARLSON: I don't know, Paul. And neither do you. BEGALA: Yes, I do. It's a right wing Louisiana crackpot. Let her testify, crackpot.
In a minute, we're going to move next door from Louisiana to my home state of Texas and do the two-step there, where the Democrats won't dance with the Republican (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
And then later in our "Rapid Fire" segment, one of Dick Gephardt's strongest and newest supporters defends his choice.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Apparently unsatisfied simply with ruining the economy, eliminating the surplus, and comparing the EPA to the Gestapo, House Republican Leader Tom DeLay has decided now to redraw the map of Texas.
Under DeLay's prodding, Republicans in the state legislature tossed out a map of congressional districts that was drawn by a bipartisan panel of federal judges and approved by the U.S. Supreme Court. Now they want to force through a new gerrymandered map guaranteed to elect more Republicans.
The outnumbered Democrats are fighting back the only way they can under the House rules by staying away and preventing a quorum. Stepping into the CROSSFIRE from Ardmore, Oklahoma, out of reach of Tom DeLay's troopers, Democratic state Representative Garnet Coleman, one of the freedom fighters, and in Austin, Republican state Representative Dan Branch.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, thanks for joining us from Oklahoma.
GARNET COLEMAN (D), TEXAS STATE HOUSE: Good afternoon.
CARLSON: Let's review the facts of the case briefly, if you don't mind. Democrats got into an argument with Republicans in the Texas state House, and most Democrats packed up and left the state.
Critics say this is evidence of cowardice. Let me ask you. When you argue with your wife, do you throw down your newspaper, hop in the car and drive to Oklahoma?
COLEMAN: This isn't about an argument with my wife. This is about the rights of my wife and all the other people in Texas. And when the thing that you can do to stop something bad from happening is leave, then that's a good thing. If I were arguing with my wife, and I felt like it would be a bad circumstance, I would leave to make sure that I protected her.
BEGALA: Representative Branch, I'm told you brought a visual aid, cards, playing cards featuring these Texas Democrats. I'll also read you a comment that -- have you got them with you? DAN BRANCH (R), TEXAS STATE HOUSE: I do. In fact, I was going to tell Garnet he's the ace of hearts. So if he's -- I don't know if you can see them there, but we've got -- Mr. Coleman is an ace, so he should be happy with that.
BEGALA: I want to also read you a comment -- excuse me, Mr. Coleman, I want to read Mr. Branch a comment describing you, Mr. Coleman, and others. Mr. Branch said "They're legislative terrorists and their leaving today is a weapon of mass obstruction."
Representative Branch, let me give you a chance on national television to apologize to the families of the seven Americans who were murdered by real terrorists for you comparing decent Americans having a political disagreement with you to these murderous thugs who are killing our citizens. I think you owe everybody an apology for that.
BRANCH: Well, Paul, I made that statement before the events in Saudi Arabia. And the point is this...
BEGALA: You are comparing them on these playing cards to the Iraqi thugs. Isn't that obscene to compare murderous dictators to people you have a political disagreement with?
(APPLAUSE)
BRANCH: Well, I think what's bizarre and perhaps obscene is Texas legislature fleeing the state. It's one thing to stay and persuade and debate and discuss and ultimately vote and lose, which Republicans have been doing in this House for 130 years. It's another thing in the Texas legislature to desert the state. That's like the Congress...
BEGALA: So that's like mass murder, in your mind?
BRANCH: ... going to Canada. It's like the Congress going to Canada or like the parliament going to France. It's just bizarre and not -- it's outside the -- it's desertion of the state.
These are state legislators. They have a job to do.
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, that's sort of a hard point to argue, isn't it? I mean Democrats have controlled the state House for 130 years. It's been five or so months since Republicans have been in control. For all those many years Republicans didn't run away every time something was going to pass they didn't like.
COLEMAN: Well, let me tell you, we have never tried to draw a map to change the Congress of the United States after the normal redistricting period. And if what it takes to protect Texans and people all over the country is to make sure that you can do that by not having this map passed, then that's the right thing to do.
You know, it's really important to understand that the people at the Alamo died, but we always remember them because they fought very hard. And that's exactly what we're doing here, fighting very hard. BRANCH: This redistricting was always anticipated. The question was in the state Senate whether or not there were the votes. But this is something that there was an impasse last year because there was a Democrat-controlled House, a Democrat speaker. And so this is something that Colorado just did, New Mexico is looking at, Oklahoma...
COLEMAN: And don't want it. Colorado doesn't want to do it. And that's what's really important to understand.
They didn't want to do that map. That map was forced down them. It doesn't matter whether...
BRANCH: The point of these maps are to reflect the political landscape.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Hang on just a second. Guys, one at a time. Let me go back to Mr. Branch and show one of the districts in the map that you are trying to push.
The map that exists today was approved by the United States Supreme Court, drafted by a bipartisan group of federal judges. You want to replace it with one district, for example, that goes from Austin, Texas to the Mexico border, 450 miles away. It would be as if we drew a district from Washington, D.C. all the way to Boston. Now you aren't telling me that there's a reason to do that other than raw political power?
BRANCH: No, that's the NAFTA district. That's the NAFTA corridor. But if you want to talk about gerrymandering, we have been living under gerrymandering in this state for 130 years. So the Democrats wrote the book on that stuff.
BEGALA: That's why the Supreme Court (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a previous map?
BRANCH: Hey, our attorney general has given us the authority and says we can do this. This is something that should have been done last year.
COLEMAN: The attorney general is saying we don't have to.
BRANCH: He has said we don't have to, but it says that we can do it. And so it was always anticipated.
But what's more important is we had key legislation that they are destroying. The collateral damage is the real -- and the principle is, do you walk out when you are going to lose the vote? Republicans never did.
Our speaker, Tom Craddick (ph), he sat there in '71, '81, '91 gerrymandering all the way, and he never walked a vote. Right now we have 17 congressional members that are Democrats and we have 15 that are Republican. Yet the electorate in the state elected, 57 percent voted Republican and...
COLEMAN: Well let's talk about this right here (ph). Let's talk about this.
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, let me ask you a question here. A lot of people in Texas are disgusted by what you have done, fleeing the state. But someone who is impressed by it is Governor Brad Henry, a Democrat of Oklahoma, who has invited you to come visit him at the state House. Do you think, since you're already in the state of Oklahoma, there's any chance you would be willing to represent Oklahoma in their state legislature?
COLEMAN: Well, I know that I represent Texas very well and so do the members that are here. And because...
CARLSON: Here being in Oklahoma.
COLEMAN: ... we have chosen to represent our...
BRANCH: Come home.
COLEMAN: No, because we are here in Oklahoma. And the reality is that if somebody wants to come talk to us, we're here. But we're representing our people. And we are working on behalf of our constituents.
And let me just tell you, yes, there are members of the legislature that are Democrats that live in Republican districts. Members of the Congress, who have been elected by Republicans and Democrats. And those should be maintained.
There is no reason why Chad Edwards (ph), who lives in a district and represents a district that also elected George Bush and Kay Bailey Hutchison, should be deprived of serving his constituents. There's no reason that their vote for him on the map that was drawn that put him in that office and their vote that keeps him in that office should be taken away just because Tom DeLay wants to push down his egotistical and...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, Mr. Branch, I'm sorry. We're totally out of time.
Mr. Coleman, I want to wish you luck in Oklahoma. And I do hope you come back to Texas. But if you don't, again, good luck there. Dan Branch, one of the most impressive members of the state House, thank you...
BRANCH: Just show up for work.
CARLSON: We are totally out of time. Thank you very much for joining us.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thanks.
Coming up next, Wolf Blitzer has the latest headlines. And then it's the quickest question-and-answer session in television: "Rapid Fire." A member of the Democrats' congressional leadership will attempt to explain why Dick Gephardt should be president. Of course that won't take long at all.
Later, we bet you can guess which Democrat wants to beat up on Bill Bennett a little bit more. One hint, he's sitting at this table. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Time now for "Rapid Fire." Short questions, short answers. And, you know, average sized height of the hosts.
Today, the Democratic leader of the House of Representatives endorsed Congressman Dick Gephardt in his bid for president. One of those leaders joins us now from the House gallery, Democratic Whip Stanley Hoyer of Maryland. Mr. Hoyer, thanks.
REP. STENY HOYER, (D-MD), MINORITY WHIP: Hi, Paul, Tucker.
CARLSON: Congressman, thanks for joining us.
HOYER: Thank you.
CARLSON: If you could just give me a yes or no answer to this question. In your heart, honestly, do you really believe that dick Gephardt is really going to be the president of the United States?
HOYER: Absolutely yes.
BEGALA: Mr. Hoyer, who did you endorse in the 1992 primaries?
HOYER: Bill Clinton. He won. You'll recall he won. And you didn't think he was going to win, Tucker.
CARLSON: No, actually, I didn't, and I was wrong. And I think you're going to be wrong this time. Let me give you one example.
HOYER: Well, that's what makes the world go round.
CARLSON: First quarter fund-raising numbers Iowa, it turns out that Congressman Gephardt lives in a contiguous state, had three donors total from the state of Iowa for a total of $1,000. Pretty sad performance wasn't it?
HOYER: The good performance is going to be when he wins Iowa. And he's going to win Iowa.
BEGALA: Who is going to base their vote on an endorsement, though, Mr. Hoyer?
HOYER: Well I think the people of Iowa know Dick Gephardt. The reason so many House members endorsed him because they know Dick Gephardt.
He can do the job. He's electable. He's got the kind of values that I think Americans are going to respond to. He's going to be the next president.
CARLSON: Well, I mean many people in the House know Dick Gephardt because he's been there for a long time. There was talk that he's going to reposition himself as a candidate outside the Beltway of the heartland. That's not going to fly will it?
HOYER: Well, whether it flies or not, Dick Gephardt is a good person. He knows the issues. He knows how to do the job, he knows how to bring people together.
And as I said, he shares America's values. They are going to respond to him. He's going to be elected.
BEGALA: Mr. Gephardt also said health care is going to be his number one priority. Is that yours?
HOYER: I think health care is one of America's number one priorities. We have to get people jobs. That's our number one priority. But we certainly have to make sure that every American has health care coverage.
Dick Gephardt has come up with a bold, big idea. It's subject to debate, probably subject to amendment. But the fact is, he is thinking about what worries Americans, and that's why he's going to, I think, be so successful.
CARLSON: Can you tell me one thing that is different about this Dick Gephardt from the Dick Gephardt who ran and lost badly in 1988?
HOYER: I think he's had 14 years of experience. I think he's had 14 years of learning the big issues of this country and talking to the people in this country. And I think you're going to find a very well -- a very ready candidate and a person who the American public are going to conclude would be and will be a good president of the United States.
This guy has experience. He has heart. He has values. He has the ability to lead this country, and I think people are going to select him.
BEGALA: Steny Hoyer, Democrat of Maryland. Thank you very much for joining us, sir.
HOYER: Terrific -- thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Tucker, I'll tell you one difference is I worked for Dick Gephardt in 1988 and that's probably why he lost.
CARLSON: I didn't wan to be mean and point that out. BEGALA: Coming up next, the odds are, oh, say, nine to five that you missed it, but guess where holy roller Bill Bennett has set up his pulpit to preach about virtues?
And then, our viewers fire back about the great Texas standoff. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. In today's "In case you missed it file," Bill Bennett, the holy roller high roller, has provided still more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for "The Washington Post's" reliable source gossip column, which I hereby pass along to you.
It seems that on May 5, just hours after announcing "My gambling days are over," the bookie of virtue gave a sermon at the Oneida bingo and casino in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Casino officials reportedly gave a "no comment" when asked if Mr. Bennett dropped a few coins in the slots that night, but a spokesman for Bennett huffily told "The Washington Post" "No."
You see, Bennett's gambling days may be over, but he never said anything about his gambling nights. So he's, you know...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Here's my theoretical question. If Ann Richards, former Democrat governor of Texas and recovered alcoholic, was in a bar, would you mock her?
BEGALA: You know, if she were lecturing other people about abstinence, yes. Bill Bennett's a hypocrite. I don't care about gambling. Gambling is fine with me, but hypocrisy is not. That's the problem.
CARLSON: Actually, I would say there's a certain level of meanness...
BEGALA: In Bill Bennett there is.
CARLSON: ... which is counterproductive. And I think you've reached that level -- yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering how Texas Democrats are going to explain to taxpayers where their money is going when the Democrats are running to Oklahoma, preventing any work from being done?
CARLSON: That's right. I mean voters in Texas swept in a Republican-controlled legislature for a reason. And this is one of the reasons.
BEGALA: Well you know where your tax dollars are going? Our federal Department of Homeland Security was used to try to track these guys down. We got seven Americans killed by terrorists this week and Bush is using the Homeland Security Department for partisan ends (ph)? Shame on him. That's a waste of taxpayers' money. That's what we ought to be concerned about, young lady.
CARLSON: And if that were true, I would be concerned.
BEGALA: From the left -- that's true. It was reported in today's (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: Bush did not use it. Untrue.
BEGALA: Bush is the president. It's his department. From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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Endorses Dick Gephardt>
Aired May 14, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, why aren't you all at work, partners?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not going to be an accomplice to a partisan power grab.
ANNOUNCER: How about if the governor says pretty please?
GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: We welcome any Democrat in the legislature who wants to work in good faith.
ANNOUNCER: We'll get to the bottom of who's messing with Texas.
Plus, see Dick. See Dick run. See Dick get support. Can Dick win? Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. This afternoon we're going to defy conventional wisdom and in fact mess with Texas. But first we get a chance to mess with everything else in the best political briefing in television, that is our CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
Quick. Name the nine Democrats running for president. Are you stumped? Don't worry. Most people can't even name one.
According to the latest CBS News poll, 66 percent of Americans were unable to recall the name of a single Democratic presidential candidate. The results were only two points better among registered Democrats, who presumably would be paying some attention to their own party, but apparently they're not.
Remember Dick Gephardt? Ninety-four percent of Americans don't. John Edwards? If so, count yourself among the knowledgeable two percent. Even John Kerry, who is the front runner at the moment, registered with only seven percent of voters and with only five percent of Democratic voters. In other words, Kerry's own base was more likely to forget him, which means it's going to be a great election.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, what it means is that we're 18 months away from the election. Eighteen months before the election of 1992, no one could have mentioned Bill Clinton and the Republicans were dismissing him. And what did he do? Oh, he whipped Bush senior's butt.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, no. It's actually -- that's actually a fair point. It's early for polls like this. However, you do have to wonder why fewer Democrats than Republicans know who John Kerry is.
What does that tell you? If his own party doesn't remember him and the Republicans remember him better, how do you explain this, Paul?
BEGALA: Firs, the Democrats have lives and Republicans are just kind of fixating on the Republican tax machine, which has targeted Kerry.
CARLSON: Nice spin. Yes, OK.
BEGALA: Congresswoman Jane Harmony, a Democrat who supported the war in Iraq, called today for a full accounting of what our government knew about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and when it knew it. President Bush had claimed that Saddam Hussein had 25,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin and 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX gas, none of which has been found.
And the head of the 101st Airborne Division, General David Petraeus, says "There's no question there were chemical weapons years ago. I just don't know whether it was all destroyed years ago." Indeed, before the war, Mr. Bush had intelligence information from a top Iraqi defector saying that all such weapons were destroyed years ago, but he didn't tell us that.
CARLSON: You know, Paul, I've noticed a trend, a theme among Democrats lately. And that's reliance upon conspiracy theories. In the absence of any ideas at all about how to run government, Democrats rely increasingly on Jim Garrison-like theories.
You heard Moran say it's all Jewish groups pushing us to war. You heard liberals say it's all about oil. And now Jane Harmon saying the government must have been withholding evidence.
BEGALA: We know they were. We know for a fact...
CARLSON: This is crazy, Paul. This is crazy. I'm serious.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Husayn Kamil, who is the son-in-law of Saddam Hussein, he defected to the west. And President Bush cited him in his State of the Union address.
CARLSON: One of many sources of intelligence.
BEGALA: Excuse me. Let me finish the point. Bush cited the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of his intelligence that said we had chemical weapons but not the half that said we destroyed them years ago. That's misleading the American people about war and peace. And now 177 Americans are dead.
CARLSON: Well there are thousands of sources of intelligence.
BEGALA: Shame on Bush for misleading us.
CARLSON: It's a mistake.
The Clinton administration is long gone, thank heaven, but its debts remain outstanding. The former president, though now, of course, obscenely rich, still hasn't paid his lawyers for legal work they did years ago. Now it turns out that Clinton's long-time political guru and friend -- that would be Dick Morris -- has an open tab as well.
According to Reuters, Morris, who is a Fox News contributor, is also one of the top tax delinquents in the state of Connecticut, with more than $250,000 in unpaid income taxes. Morris, you'll remember, resigned from Clinton's service after being caught up in a prostitution scandal. What you may not recall is that the prostitute in question claimed that Morris tried to stiff her on the bill. As we've said before, if you'll do it to your girlfriend, you'll probably do it to the country.
BEGALA: What's most interesting about this is you leave out -- it's important to note that he's a Fox News contributor, which means Fox is the home of not only someone who is alleged to be behind on his taxes -- we'll see if that allegation is true -- but also the home of a reporter who broadcast information about our troop movement.
This is Fox News, the flag-waving network. What a bunch of hypocrites they are.
CARLSON: But I would say it's just telling -- that it's not simply the former president, but it's all the people around him. Why can't liberals pay their bills? If they care so much about the average person, why can't you pay your lawyers? Why can't you pay your taxes? I mean, come on.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Come on, Tucker. That's absurd. Believe me, Dick Morris was Trent Lott's and Jesse Helms' political consultant. Talk to Trent Lott and Jesse Helms.
CARLSON: He ran their White House? Oh, sorry. BEGALA: Laurali (ph) Guillory is the mother of a 6-year-old boy who was savagely murdered in Louisiana. And under Louisiana law, therefore, Ms. Guillory has a right to give the jury in the murder trial a victim impact statement. But prosecutors won't let her.
See, Ms. Guillory says that, while she has not forgiven her child's murderer, she wants him locked away for life, but she opposes the death penalty. Ms. Guillory says that killing her son's killer won't protect children as much as passing new sex offender registration and notification laws. That's what she wants.
But apparently in Louisiana, only crime victims who meet a right wing politically correct test will be allowed to share their pain to the jury. Shame on them.
CARLSON: You know, it's a shame, though, that you need to make this into a partisan issue. I don't care for the death penalty myself. Some of the most enthusiastic practitioners of the death penalty, as you know, are Democrats.
BEGALA: George W. Bush?
CARLSON: I'm not certain that it's a partisan issue. I do think that even you would agree that crime victims don't get to set punishments. I think they ought to have input; she ought to have some input. But they don't get to decide how people are punished.
BEGALA: I absolutely agree.
CARLSON: And I think it's a shame to say it's a right wing thing.
BEGALA: Of course it's a right wing thing.
CARLSON: When Clinton...
BEGALA: If you have the right wing position on the death penalty, Louisiana will let you testify. If you don't, they won't. Every crime victim...
CARLSON: It's not a right wing and a left wing. Joe Lieberman is for the death penalty. Come on.
BEGALA: Every parent of every murdered child suffers equally, I am sure. I can't imagine their pain. But they have an equal right whether they support or oppose the death penalty. They shouldn't have a right wing litmus test.
CARLSON: But it's not right -- your hatred of the right is blinding you.
BEGALA: Of course it's right wing. It's an obvious statement. Do you think it's a liberal prosecutor who won't let her testify against the death penalty, Tucker?
CARLSON: I don't know, Paul. And neither do you. BEGALA: Yes, I do. It's a right wing Louisiana crackpot. Let her testify, crackpot.
In a minute, we're going to move next door from Louisiana to my home state of Texas and do the two-step there, where the Democrats won't dance with the Republican (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
And then later in our "Rapid Fire" segment, one of Dick Gephardt's strongest and newest supporters defends his choice.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Apparently unsatisfied simply with ruining the economy, eliminating the surplus, and comparing the EPA to the Gestapo, House Republican Leader Tom DeLay has decided now to redraw the map of Texas.
Under DeLay's prodding, Republicans in the state legislature tossed out a map of congressional districts that was drawn by a bipartisan panel of federal judges and approved by the U.S. Supreme Court. Now they want to force through a new gerrymandered map guaranteed to elect more Republicans.
The outnumbered Democrats are fighting back the only way they can under the House rules by staying away and preventing a quorum. Stepping into the CROSSFIRE from Ardmore, Oklahoma, out of reach of Tom DeLay's troopers, Democratic state Representative Garnet Coleman, one of the freedom fighters, and in Austin, Republican state Representative Dan Branch.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, thanks for joining us from Oklahoma.
GARNET COLEMAN (D), TEXAS STATE HOUSE: Good afternoon.
CARLSON: Let's review the facts of the case briefly, if you don't mind. Democrats got into an argument with Republicans in the Texas state House, and most Democrats packed up and left the state.
Critics say this is evidence of cowardice. Let me ask you. When you argue with your wife, do you throw down your newspaper, hop in the car and drive to Oklahoma?
COLEMAN: This isn't about an argument with my wife. This is about the rights of my wife and all the other people in Texas. And when the thing that you can do to stop something bad from happening is leave, then that's a good thing. If I were arguing with my wife, and I felt like it would be a bad circumstance, I would leave to make sure that I protected her.
BEGALA: Representative Branch, I'm told you brought a visual aid, cards, playing cards featuring these Texas Democrats. I'll also read you a comment that -- have you got them with you? DAN BRANCH (R), TEXAS STATE HOUSE: I do. In fact, I was going to tell Garnet he's the ace of hearts. So if he's -- I don't know if you can see them there, but we've got -- Mr. Coleman is an ace, so he should be happy with that.
BEGALA: I want to also read you a comment -- excuse me, Mr. Coleman, I want to read Mr. Branch a comment describing you, Mr. Coleman, and others. Mr. Branch said "They're legislative terrorists and their leaving today is a weapon of mass obstruction."
Representative Branch, let me give you a chance on national television to apologize to the families of the seven Americans who were murdered by real terrorists for you comparing decent Americans having a political disagreement with you to these murderous thugs who are killing our citizens. I think you owe everybody an apology for that.
BRANCH: Well, Paul, I made that statement before the events in Saudi Arabia. And the point is this...
BEGALA: You are comparing them on these playing cards to the Iraqi thugs. Isn't that obscene to compare murderous dictators to people you have a political disagreement with?
(APPLAUSE)
BRANCH: Well, I think what's bizarre and perhaps obscene is Texas legislature fleeing the state. It's one thing to stay and persuade and debate and discuss and ultimately vote and lose, which Republicans have been doing in this House for 130 years. It's another thing in the Texas legislature to desert the state. That's like the Congress...
BEGALA: So that's like mass murder, in your mind?
BRANCH: ... going to Canada. It's like the Congress going to Canada or like the parliament going to France. It's just bizarre and not -- it's outside the -- it's desertion of the state.
These are state legislators. They have a job to do.
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, that's sort of a hard point to argue, isn't it? I mean Democrats have controlled the state House for 130 years. It's been five or so months since Republicans have been in control. For all those many years Republicans didn't run away every time something was going to pass they didn't like.
COLEMAN: Well, let me tell you, we have never tried to draw a map to change the Congress of the United States after the normal redistricting period. And if what it takes to protect Texans and people all over the country is to make sure that you can do that by not having this map passed, then that's the right thing to do.
You know, it's really important to understand that the people at the Alamo died, but we always remember them because they fought very hard. And that's exactly what we're doing here, fighting very hard. BRANCH: This redistricting was always anticipated. The question was in the state Senate whether or not there were the votes. But this is something that there was an impasse last year because there was a Democrat-controlled House, a Democrat speaker. And so this is something that Colorado just did, New Mexico is looking at, Oklahoma...
COLEMAN: And don't want it. Colorado doesn't want to do it. And that's what's really important to understand.
They didn't want to do that map. That map was forced down them. It doesn't matter whether...
BRANCH: The point of these maps are to reflect the political landscape.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Hang on just a second. Guys, one at a time. Let me go back to Mr. Branch and show one of the districts in the map that you are trying to push.
The map that exists today was approved by the United States Supreme Court, drafted by a bipartisan group of federal judges. You want to replace it with one district, for example, that goes from Austin, Texas to the Mexico border, 450 miles away. It would be as if we drew a district from Washington, D.C. all the way to Boston. Now you aren't telling me that there's a reason to do that other than raw political power?
BRANCH: No, that's the NAFTA district. That's the NAFTA corridor. But if you want to talk about gerrymandering, we have been living under gerrymandering in this state for 130 years. So the Democrats wrote the book on that stuff.
BEGALA: That's why the Supreme Court (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a previous map?
BRANCH: Hey, our attorney general has given us the authority and says we can do this. This is something that should have been done last year.
COLEMAN: The attorney general is saying we don't have to.
BRANCH: He has said we don't have to, but it says that we can do it. And so it was always anticipated.
But what's more important is we had key legislation that they are destroying. The collateral damage is the real -- and the principle is, do you walk out when you are going to lose the vote? Republicans never did.
Our speaker, Tom Craddick (ph), he sat there in '71, '81, '91 gerrymandering all the way, and he never walked a vote. Right now we have 17 congressional members that are Democrats and we have 15 that are Republican. Yet the electorate in the state elected, 57 percent voted Republican and...
COLEMAN: Well let's talk about this right here (ph). Let's talk about this.
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, let me ask you a question here. A lot of people in Texas are disgusted by what you have done, fleeing the state. But someone who is impressed by it is Governor Brad Henry, a Democrat of Oklahoma, who has invited you to come visit him at the state House. Do you think, since you're already in the state of Oklahoma, there's any chance you would be willing to represent Oklahoma in their state legislature?
COLEMAN: Well, I know that I represent Texas very well and so do the members that are here. And because...
CARLSON: Here being in Oklahoma.
COLEMAN: ... we have chosen to represent our...
BRANCH: Come home.
COLEMAN: No, because we are here in Oklahoma. And the reality is that if somebody wants to come talk to us, we're here. But we're representing our people. And we are working on behalf of our constituents.
And let me just tell you, yes, there are members of the legislature that are Democrats that live in Republican districts. Members of the Congress, who have been elected by Republicans and Democrats. And those should be maintained.
There is no reason why Chad Edwards (ph), who lives in a district and represents a district that also elected George Bush and Kay Bailey Hutchison, should be deprived of serving his constituents. There's no reason that their vote for him on the map that was drawn that put him in that office and their vote that keeps him in that office should be taken away just because Tom DeLay wants to push down his egotistical and...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Coleman, Mr. Branch, I'm sorry. We're totally out of time.
Mr. Coleman, I want to wish you luck in Oklahoma. And I do hope you come back to Texas. But if you don't, again, good luck there. Dan Branch, one of the most impressive members of the state House, thank you...
BRANCH: Just show up for work.
CARLSON: We are totally out of time. Thank you very much for joining us.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thanks.
Coming up next, Wolf Blitzer has the latest headlines. And then it's the quickest question-and-answer session in television: "Rapid Fire." A member of the Democrats' congressional leadership will attempt to explain why Dick Gephardt should be president. Of course that won't take long at all.
Later, we bet you can guess which Democrat wants to beat up on Bill Bennett a little bit more. One hint, he's sitting at this table. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Time now for "Rapid Fire." Short questions, short answers. And, you know, average sized height of the hosts.
Today, the Democratic leader of the House of Representatives endorsed Congressman Dick Gephardt in his bid for president. One of those leaders joins us now from the House gallery, Democratic Whip Stanley Hoyer of Maryland. Mr. Hoyer, thanks.
REP. STENY HOYER, (D-MD), MINORITY WHIP: Hi, Paul, Tucker.
CARLSON: Congressman, thanks for joining us.
HOYER: Thank you.
CARLSON: If you could just give me a yes or no answer to this question. In your heart, honestly, do you really believe that dick Gephardt is really going to be the president of the United States?
HOYER: Absolutely yes.
BEGALA: Mr. Hoyer, who did you endorse in the 1992 primaries?
HOYER: Bill Clinton. He won. You'll recall he won. And you didn't think he was going to win, Tucker.
CARLSON: No, actually, I didn't, and I was wrong. And I think you're going to be wrong this time. Let me give you one example.
HOYER: Well, that's what makes the world go round.
CARLSON: First quarter fund-raising numbers Iowa, it turns out that Congressman Gephardt lives in a contiguous state, had three donors total from the state of Iowa for a total of $1,000. Pretty sad performance wasn't it?
HOYER: The good performance is going to be when he wins Iowa. And he's going to win Iowa.
BEGALA: Who is going to base their vote on an endorsement, though, Mr. Hoyer?
HOYER: Well I think the people of Iowa know Dick Gephardt. The reason so many House members endorsed him because they know Dick Gephardt.
He can do the job. He's electable. He's got the kind of values that I think Americans are going to respond to. He's going to be the next president.
CARLSON: Well, I mean many people in the House know Dick Gephardt because he's been there for a long time. There was talk that he's going to reposition himself as a candidate outside the Beltway of the heartland. That's not going to fly will it?
HOYER: Well, whether it flies or not, Dick Gephardt is a good person. He knows the issues. He knows how to do the job, he knows how to bring people together.
And as I said, he shares America's values. They are going to respond to him. He's going to be elected.
BEGALA: Mr. Gephardt also said health care is going to be his number one priority. Is that yours?
HOYER: I think health care is one of America's number one priorities. We have to get people jobs. That's our number one priority. But we certainly have to make sure that every American has health care coverage.
Dick Gephardt has come up with a bold, big idea. It's subject to debate, probably subject to amendment. But the fact is, he is thinking about what worries Americans, and that's why he's going to, I think, be so successful.
CARLSON: Can you tell me one thing that is different about this Dick Gephardt from the Dick Gephardt who ran and lost badly in 1988?
HOYER: I think he's had 14 years of experience. I think he's had 14 years of learning the big issues of this country and talking to the people in this country. And I think you're going to find a very well -- a very ready candidate and a person who the American public are going to conclude would be and will be a good president of the United States.
This guy has experience. He has heart. He has values. He has the ability to lead this country, and I think people are going to select him.
BEGALA: Steny Hoyer, Democrat of Maryland. Thank you very much for joining us, sir.
HOYER: Terrific -- thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Tucker, I'll tell you one difference is I worked for Dick Gephardt in 1988 and that's probably why he lost.
CARLSON: I didn't wan to be mean and point that out. BEGALA: Coming up next, the odds are, oh, say, nine to five that you missed it, but guess where holy roller Bill Bennett has set up his pulpit to preach about virtues?
And then, our viewers fire back about the great Texas standoff. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. In today's "In case you missed it file," Bill Bennett, the holy roller high roller, has provided still more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for "The Washington Post's" reliable source gossip column, which I hereby pass along to you.
It seems that on May 5, just hours after announcing "My gambling days are over," the bookie of virtue gave a sermon at the Oneida bingo and casino in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Casino officials reportedly gave a "no comment" when asked if Mr. Bennett dropped a few coins in the slots that night, but a spokesman for Bennett huffily told "The Washington Post" "No."
You see, Bennett's gambling days may be over, but he never said anything about his gambling nights. So he's, you know...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Here's my theoretical question. If Ann Richards, former Democrat governor of Texas and recovered alcoholic, was in a bar, would you mock her?
BEGALA: You know, if she were lecturing other people about abstinence, yes. Bill Bennett's a hypocrite. I don't care about gambling. Gambling is fine with me, but hypocrisy is not. That's the problem.
CARLSON: Actually, I would say there's a certain level of meanness...
BEGALA: In Bill Bennett there is.
CARLSON: ... which is counterproductive. And I think you've reached that level -- yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering how Texas Democrats are going to explain to taxpayers where their money is going when the Democrats are running to Oklahoma, preventing any work from being done?
CARLSON: That's right. I mean voters in Texas swept in a Republican-controlled legislature for a reason. And this is one of the reasons.
BEGALA: Well you know where your tax dollars are going? Our federal Department of Homeland Security was used to try to track these guys down. We got seven Americans killed by terrorists this week and Bush is using the Homeland Security Department for partisan ends (ph)? Shame on him. That's a waste of taxpayers' money. That's what we ought to be concerned about, young lady.
CARLSON: And if that were true, I would be concerned.
BEGALA: From the left -- that's true. It was reported in today's (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: Bush did not use it. Untrue.
BEGALA: Bush is the president. It's his department. From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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