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CNN Crossfire
Intern Rumored to Have Had Affair With JFK Confirms Story; Reevaluating Camelot
Aired May 15, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carlisle and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, did this woman really need to be exposed as JFK's Monica?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is the least likely person I ever would have expected to have had a romance. But I think probably Jack Kennedy would have gone to bed with anybody. So...
ANNOUNCER: In the CROSSFIRE, reevaluating Camelot.
Plus, a taxing afternoon for the U.S. Senate. And what's missing from this picture? Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. This is Paul Begala. We're talking about two of Washington's favorite subjects today: sex and money. But hold off on the heavy breathing. You'll want to hear every word of the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Thank you, Paul. As we speak, the U.S. Senate is debating how much of our own money we should be allowed to keep. Republicans are getting ready to pass a tax cut despite what's shaping up to be a full night's worth of Democratic foot dragging and, of course, tons of whining.
Who knows, maybe Tom Daschle and company will run away to Ardmore, Oklahoma and join their friends from the Texas legislature. It would mean you'll get your tax cut sooner, but you'll get one anyhow. Just be patient, Oklahoma or not.
CARVILLE: And all you young people out there, they're passing a tax increase for you. You just watch this whole thing, because you're going to be paying for this greed for the rest of your lives. It is an intergenerational tax.
CARLSON: Actually, James, it's funny.
CARVILLE: And these greedy Republicans are paying their contributors off by taxing you young people in this audience right here.
CARLSON: Democrats in Congress...
CARVILLE: It's your responsibility.
CARLSON: Actually, Democrats in Congress have proposed spending that's greater than the tax cut. So to lecture anybody about the deficit -- that's actually true.
CARVILLE: They have not. Democrats -- and when Bill Clinton took office, it was a $290 billion a year deficit. When he left office, there was a $5.6 trillion surplus that your boss blew and you blew. A little fiscal responsibility. A little fiscal responsibility.
Yes, sir. All right. Well, here we go. Paul is...
CARLSON: To lecture on responsibility...
CARVILLE: Fiscal responsibility.
Look real closely at the pictures I'm about to show you. They were taken just before President Bush's tax cut speech in Indianapolis last Tuesday. Look how many of those fat cat VIPs on stage with the president aren't wearing neckties.
Is this a new Republican fashion trend? Yes. The guys were told to take off their ties so they would look like average Joes who are in favor of the president's tax cut for the rich.
CNN affiliate WISH TV's Web site even has a picture of state Representative Brian Bosner (ph) wearing his tie before the speech and without a tie during the speech. Just how dumb does the White House think the rest of us are? Obviously, they think we're pretty dumb.
CARLSON: Well, I don't know. Actually, this may surprise you, but I think it's phony and I'm not going to defend that. But politics itself is chock full of phoniness, as you're aware.
Now, James, as someone who would defend -- hold on -- as someone who defended President Clinton, who literally chose his own family vacation based on polling, to say sit and lecture this White House, which is less phony than the one who preceded it, you have got to give me a break.
CARVILLE: This tax cut, the numbers are phony. This administration has phony numbers. There's not a real thing about this tax cut, down to the no ties that the people that claim to be supporting it are wearing. CARLSON: Well, as usual, if you ever lose this job, I know you'll be an excellent bumper sticker writer, because that's basically what your arguments amount to.
CARVILLE: $290 billion you all blew.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Put it on a bumper sticker. Visualize world peace.
The government wants you to protect yourself. And if you don't, they'll hurt you. That's the message from Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta, who has announced a new and authoritarian plan to enforce seat belt use.
Starting next Monday, law enforcement agencies in all 50 states will hunt down and punish people who don't buckle up. Adults, that is. The program will include road patrols, and we are not making this up, seat belt checkpoints near shopping malls and high schools.
Not to be outdone, the Department of Health and Human Services will announce spot checks by armed federal marshalls at restaurants to make certain that you have, in fact, brushed your teeth this morning.
CARVILLE: I'll tell you one thing, Tucker, you are consistent in your opposition to the nanny (ph) state.
CARLSON: I am totally consistent. And I must say, the Republican Party does a much better job of resisting it, but sometimes it falls down and fails. And this is one of those cases. If you don't want to wear your own seat belt, you shouldn't have to. Nobody should punish you for not protecting yourself.
CARVILLE: For those of you who want to -- what about child labor laws?
CARLSON: James, I'm talking about consenting adults.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So you don't hold Rick Santorum's views on gays. You think if two people want to have sex, they ought to have sex.
CARLSON: The point is...
CARVILLE: I'm just asking you.
CARSLON: ... consenting adults should not, within reasonable limits, be told on a what to do by the government. I don't think the government ought to be breaking down doors and telling you what you can do in the sack or not. And I don't think they ought to tell you...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So unlikely Bill Bailey (ph), do you believe if somebody wants to smoke a joint, they ought not go to jail? OK.
I want to say this. The "Fort Worth Star-Telegram" is an outstanding newspaper, but they have published what has to be a lie. They say that the Department of Homeland Security was used to track down Democratic Texas legislators.
This is an agency that's sitting here to protect us and the likes of Mohammed Atta, that is sitting there under the most great thing that was started up and inspired by the Bill Clinton administration and championed by Joe Lieberman. And we were told that this was going to make us safer.
And what are they doing? They're using it for -- they claim it was used for a political end to track down Democratic politicians. I just refuse to believe this. I think somebody needs to investigate this.
CARLSON: Well, I don't know. James...
CARVILLE: I cannot believe that we're using the Department of Homeland Security to track down politicians and not terrorists.
CARLSON: I don't know why you're attacking the "Fort Worth Star- Telegram." I don't think you ought to blame journalists first. But the fact is, I will be shocked if it turns out that any federal law enforcement official was involved in any way in the search for the cry babies from the Texas legislature who ran away to Oklahoma.
CARVILLE: Well then the "Fort Worth Star-Telegram" -- then we need to find out why the "Fort Worth Star-Telegram"...
CARLSON: James, I don't think you read the paper very carefully.
CARVILLE: I have the article right here. They reported that the Department of Homeland Security was trying to track down an airplane belonging to a Texas Democratic legislator. They must be (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: James, there are no Department of Homeland Security police. These were state police that went to track them down.
CARVILLE: I think this story is so outrageous, it cannot be true. I want to defend the Department of Homeland Security. You would never allow yourself to be politicized like that. And I don't know what happened to the "Fort Worth Star-Telegram," because it's impossible for this story to be true.
CARLSON: OK. We'll figure that one and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that speech in just a moment.
But first, Bill Clinton always said he wanted to imitate JFK. His wish turned out to be truer than we ever suspected. Next, we'll show you the first photographs of the woman who now admits a relationship with the president. Will Kennedy's intern permanently tarnish Camelot's legacy.
And what is Camelot, anyway? And why are we still talking about it 40 years later? That's our debate.
Later, Senator John Sununu gives us a Rapidfire update on when your tax cut will be ready. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: A new biography of President Kennedy has been the talk of the town this week. And it isn't because "An Unfinished Life," by Robert Dallek, shows how Kennedy faced down his private health problems, not to mention (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at home and communists abroad. No, everyone's talking about a little bitty part that says the president had an affair with an intern.
Today, a woman in New York issued a statement saying she's the one. "From June, 1962 to November, 1963, I was involved in a sexual relationship with President Kennedy." Now that this poor lady's privacy has been shredded, do you suppose Republican blue noses in Congress will postdate a bill of impeachment?
In the CROSSFIRE to talk about Kennedy's legacy are former Congressman Bob Dornan of California and President Clinton's former special counsel, Lanny Davis.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Lanny Davis, probably the most revealing and distressing line in the Dallek book says this about the woman in question "Her only skill was to provide sexual release to JFK." In other words, he treated her as an object or an animal or a piece of kleenex.
Wonder why Democrats still have a lock on the feminist vote when there's obvious evidence a number of Democratic presidents don't respect women and treat them like dirt.
LANNY DAVIS, FMR. CLINTON SPECIAL COUNSEL: You know the only reason I said yes to coming on the program tonight, other than the fact I love arguing with you...
CARLSON: Well, thank you, Lanny.
DAVIS: ... is to remind everybody the reason why the American people turned off on the Republican Party in 1998 and rejected what they tried to do to Bill Clinton was because the double standard that applies to peoples private lives that nobody but moralistic, sanctimonious, double standard, right wing Republicans who tried to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Bill Clinton down...
CARLSON: Really? Because as someone who likes women and respects women, if you take a 19-year-old girl, you're a 45-year-old man and you treat her like she is just an object for sexual release, I don't know, I'm not much of a feminist. I'm kind of opposed to that, aren't you?
(APPLAUSE)
DAVIS: I'm opposed to it and I wouldn't do it myself. But here's the difference. And I hope my friend Bob Dornan agrees. I don't think he will.
The difference is I do not impose my personal morality on other people. That's between me and my wife and my maker. Republicans seem to want to play double standards. While certainly going after Bill Clinton and maybe even forgiving John Kennedy, they're practicing the same very acts in their own private life.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman Dornan, let me try to get to you here. As I take it, you believe that a person's marital fidelity says a lot about what kind of leader that person will be?
BOB DORNAN, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: James, I heard your beloved wife, who I consider a friend, say once that one of her favorite movies of all time is "Gladiator." You know what the opening was of "Gladiator"? Was Maximus saying strength and honor to all his men.
Wait a minute. Then he said, "What we do in life echoes through eternity."
And you know what? What Kennedy did in life, what Clinton did in life will echo through eternity. I can hear the echo now.
CARVILLE: So you believe that marital fidelity is a predictor of leadership?
DORNAN: I heard a CEO once say "If I find out a man's cheating on his wife, I fire him, because if he break a contract with his wife from a church temple or justice of the peace, and he'll betray his wife and children, he'll betray me as my business partner."
CARVILLE: Let me tell you presidents that we know were cheating on their wives. Jefferson, Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton. Let me tell you presidents who we know...
DORNAN: We don't know that Reagan did that.
CARVILLE: Oh sure we did.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We know he cheated on Jane Wyman. Absolutely. It's been in every biography. And we suspect that Eisenhower did. Let me tell you ones that didn't.
DORNAN: Eisenhower was the ambulance driver and he wrote a letter to Mamie and said, "May I please come home" to George Marshall.
CARVILLE: Let me tell you those who didn't and those who did. Let me tell you the people we know didn't. Nixon, Carter, Hoover and Coolidge.
DORNAN: And Newt Gingrich.
CARVILLE: No Newt Gingrich did.
DORNAN: Did, right. So I'll concede you that one.
CARVILLE: I'm saying, what makes you believe that a person's marital fidelity is any indicator of what kind of leader they're going to be?
DORNAN: Have you ever seen an A-plus student that says, you know, I smoke pot regularly and it doesn't bother my grades? You know the -- wait a minute.
CARVILLE: Answer the question.
DORNAN: James, I'm going to answer the question, intellectually. Don't let it go over your head. You know what the answer is to that A-plus student? What kind of student would you be if you weren't a pothead?
(CROSSTALK)
DORNAN: What kind of president would he have been without burning down Camelot?
CARLSON: Congressman, I just want to ask Lanny Davis a question. Now, Lanny, I don't want to, in any way, be one of those mean, right wing moralizing conservatives you made reference to a moment ago. Evil, I think, too. But can we both agree that it's wrong, at least untoward, for a political leader, even a Democratic president, to give a federal job to a teenager in return for sex?
A federal job paid for with tax dollars? Can we agree that that's wrong? Or is that moralizing, too?
DAVIS: No, we can certainly agree that would be wrong.
CARLSON: Oh, it would. OK. So that was wrong when Kennedy did it and probably wrong when Clinton did the same thing.
DAVIS: First of all -- you had your chance, Bob. Let me speak. First of all, I don't know whether what this lady is saying is true.
It took her 50 years to suddenly start talking about it and telling everybody that she wants her children to know that she has a place in history. So why are we giving absolute credence to...
CARLSON: Because a Kennedy staffer and a former "New York Times" reporter who worked as a press aide to President Kennedy in fact told Robert Dallek, who put it in his book, and then...
DAVIS: Triple hearsay in life, as well as in the law, is something we shouldn't rely on.
CARLSON: Well the woman herself came forward.
DAVIS: Let's at least raise a question. Secondly, I don't really care what President Kennedy did with his private life, nor do I care...
CARLSON: What, giving a federal job is not a private life question, is it?
DAVIS: ... that any great president -- if people violate the law, that would be a violation of the law. They ought to be prosecuted. But if any president of the United States has private failings -- and we all have private failings as human beings -- let's at least not be so judgmental and let's look at their performance.
CARLSON: I'm not being judgmental.
CARVILLE: Let me go back and see if I can get you to answer a question. Jefferson, Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton all cheated on their wives. Hoover, Coolidge, Nixon, Carter never did.
DORNAN: Which half do you want me to answer? Let's take the first four. If they hadn't done it, how much better a president would they have been?
Look, I know these sound bite shows are fast, but let's get some facts on the table. Evelyn Lincoln, she picked up a note -- it's in her book -- that Kennedy threw (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on Caroline in the campaign plane and she picks it up and reads it and saves it and puts it in her book.
He says to a friend across the aisle on the campaign plane, did you see that tall, leggy blond last night? I nailed her. I guess when I'm in the White House, no more (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Do you know what that tells me about Kennedy? That he was a sleaze ball.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That doesn't have anything to do with what kind of president he is.
DORNAN: Wait a minute. Here's the second one. Carly Simon is on the "Today Show." She's a friend of Jackie. They shopped together at Martha's Vineyard.
She says Jackie told me more than once -- think Hillary now -- how horrible it is to be married to a man who degrades you and cheats on you all the time. You want number three?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what you do? You don't answer the question.
DORNAN: James, I'm answering the question. James, listen to Ben Bradley (ph). He's on a show, I'm watching him and he says, you know Kennedy told me once that the three things he would like to change in his life would be his father, his wife and his Catholic religion. You know what? Kennedy is dead now in history. He's slime.
CARLSON: Gentlemen, we're going to have to end it there. I wanted to get you back in, Lanny, but, frankly, you didn't yell loud enough. But thank you very much for joining us, Lanny Davis, Congressman Dornan. Thank you both.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thank you.
In just a minute, a quick check of the news headlines, and then it's the quickest question-and-answer segment in television. We'll give tax cuts the Rapidfire treatment.
Later, a former Clinton sycophant continues to sniff the throne. We'll summarize his book and save you $30. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for Rapidfire. Short questions, short answers and no filibustering allowed. Joining us from Capitol Hill, where the Senate is working toward passing President Bush's tax cut to the rich, is Republican Senator John Sununu of New Hampshire.
CARLSON: Senator Sununu, every poll we've done at CNN shows the public supports the president's plan on the economy and specifically supports the tax cut, and yet the White House didn't get the tax cut it wanted. This is a failure for the White House, isn't it?
SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, it's not a failure. They're going to get most of what they want. We can argue about whether it's 75 percent, 80 percent, but we're going to get a tax cut off the floor of the Senate, get one out of conference. And the goal is to increase the strength of the economy and create some jobs. We're going to do that.
CARVILLE: The deficit this year, how big will it be, Congressman?
SUNUNU: I think it's projected to be $400, maybe $500 billion. We've had the sharpest reduction in revenues in modern history because of the recession. That's why we need a jobs package. And we've got to put some more restraint on the growth of spending if we're going to get back to balance.
CARLSON: Now Democrats have been proposing wild spending, they haven't slowed down at all, deficit-busting spending. Republicans have said virtually nothing about this. The Republican Party needs better PR, doesn't it?
SUNUNU: Well, it certainly wouldn't hurt if we talked a little bit about the amendments that have been proposed, amendment after amendment, tens of billions of dollars in spending in the coming year. That's how you increase the size of a deficit. If you want to do something about a deficit, strengthen the economy, increase revenue collections, control the growth of spending. We do have a spend (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and I think it's something in the order of half a trillion dollars in new spending that the Democrats have proposed and voted for on the floor of the Senate just in the past three months.
CARVILLE: Senator, it will cost $1 trillion to fix the alternative minimum tax. Do you support this $1 trillion tax cut?
SUNUNU: I support making the tax code more fair. And the AMT is hitting middle class families. It shouldn't be; that's not what it was designed for.
We need to fix it. And I don't think you ask a question of whether it costs $10 billion or $20 billion or $30 billion. You ask the question, is it good, fair tax policy? And I think that is...
CARVILLE: It costs $1 trillion. It costs $1 trillion. Do you support it?
SUNUNU: $1 trillion over how much time? You're telling me how big the economy is going to be in 10 years? Do you know that, James? Of course you don't know that. If you make the tax code more fair, you're going to strengthen the economy and you're not going to hurt the deficit.
CARLSON: OK. Senator, one quick prediction. Democrats keep telling us interest rates are going to go up because of the deficit. Will they and how much?
SUNUNU: They won't go up. If you look over the past 10 years and try to find a direct correlation between interest rates and the deficit, you can't find one. It's surprising to me, as someone that was on the Budget Committee. But there's -- you haven't been able to find a direct correlation because the impact is so small.
CARLSON: That is fascinating. Senator John Sununu of New Hampshire, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
SUNUNU: Thank you. Good to talk to you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: One of our viewers has remembered a very important anniversary. We'll let him fire back in just a moment. We'll return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. His former colleagues are dripping with contempt for him. Now the rest of the world will be too. One-time White House and professional Clinton throne sniffer, Sydney Blumenthal, has written an account of his years serving Bill and Hillary Clinton in a variety of positions.
The book, called "The Clinton Wars," contains no fewer than 18 different photographs of the author hovering around his heroes, the Clintons. The text, self righteous and sanctimonious to the very last word, matches the illustrations.
The point of it all? As "The New York Times" pointed out this morning in a devastating review, "Blumenthal sends a clear message to his administration colleagues: mom liked me best."
CARVILLE: Well let me point out two things. Number one, I'm a colleague of him and I'm not dripping in contempt with him. So is Mr. Begala. I know a lot of people who like Sydney.
Let me point out another thing. You never read the book. It was delivered to you 15 minutes before. And you're talking about deposing the whole thing.
You're like one of these jackasses out protesting a movie and somebody comes up and says, have you ever seen it and you say no. So actually, before you go...
CARLSON: Actually, James, that's not true.
CARVILLE: ... on here and tell these viewers something about a book, you ought to read it first, which would be something new. You were just delivered it; I was there, 15 minutes before the show.
Fireback: "Robert Novak, congratulations on the 40th anniversary of your column. Keep standing up for what's good and right in this country." Matthew Klint, Los Angeles, California.
Bob, for 40 years, wrote his first column May 15, 1963. Forty years later, he's still writing and still on TV.
CARLSON: All right. "Tucker, if you ever said anything nice about Democrats, I would faint." -- Diane Davidson, Midlothian, Virginia.
Well, actually, I can say something nice. I think Al Sharpton will be a terrific nominee. He will overcome the race-tinged attacks from fellow Democrats like James Carville. He'll overcome that and then he's on to victory.
CARVILLE: Maybe the next time that Tucker talks about somebody's book he'll actually read it, which would be a first time.
"James, with your glasses on you look like you belong in the "Matrix." -- Dr. Nicholas Cram, College Station, Texas. All right, there it is.
CARLSON: That is stunningly unattractive.
CARVILLE: What is the "Matrix" about?
CARLSON: I have no idea what it was. It's one of those movies I haven't seen.
CARVILLE: I'll be glad to... (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But you know what? I don't need to see a review of the movie. I've seen (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That's all I need to know.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Reevaluating Camelot>
Aired May 15, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carlisle and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, did this woman really need to be exposed as JFK's Monica?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is the least likely person I ever would have expected to have had a romance. But I think probably Jack Kennedy would have gone to bed with anybody. So...
ANNOUNCER: In the CROSSFIRE, reevaluating Camelot.
Plus, a taxing afternoon for the U.S. Senate. And what's missing from this picture? Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. This is Paul Begala. We're talking about two of Washington's favorite subjects today: sex and money. But hold off on the heavy breathing. You'll want to hear every word of the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Thank you, Paul. As we speak, the U.S. Senate is debating how much of our own money we should be allowed to keep. Republicans are getting ready to pass a tax cut despite what's shaping up to be a full night's worth of Democratic foot dragging and, of course, tons of whining.
Who knows, maybe Tom Daschle and company will run away to Ardmore, Oklahoma and join their friends from the Texas legislature. It would mean you'll get your tax cut sooner, but you'll get one anyhow. Just be patient, Oklahoma or not.
CARVILLE: And all you young people out there, they're passing a tax increase for you. You just watch this whole thing, because you're going to be paying for this greed for the rest of your lives. It is an intergenerational tax.
CARLSON: Actually, James, it's funny.
CARVILLE: And these greedy Republicans are paying their contributors off by taxing you young people in this audience right here.
CARLSON: Democrats in Congress...
CARVILLE: It's your responsibility.
CARLSON: Actually, Democrats in Congress have proposed spending that's greater than the tax cut. So to lecture anybody about the deficit -- that's actually true.
CARVILLE: They have not. Democrats -- and when Bill Clinton took office, it was a $290 billion a year deficit. When he left office, there was a $5.6 trillion surplus that your boss blew and you blew. A little fiscal responsibility. A little fiscal responsibility.
Yes, sir. All right. Well, here we go. Paul is...
CARLSON: To lecture on responsibility...
CARVILLE: Fiscal responsibility.
Look real closely at the pictures I'm about to show you. They were taken just before President Bush's tax cut speech in Indianapolis last Tuesday. Look how many of those fat cat VIPs on stage with the president aren't wearing neckties.
Is this a new Republican fashion trend? Yes. The guys were told to take off their ties so they would look like average Joes who are in favor of the president's tax cut for the rich.
CNN affiliate WISH TV's Web site even has a picture of state Representative Brian Bosner (ph) wearing his tie before the speech and without a tie during the speech. Just how dumb does the White House think the rest of us are? Obviously, they think we're pretty dumb.
CARLSON: Well, I don't know. Actually, this may surprise you, but I think it's phony and I'm not going to defend that. But politics itself is chock full of phoniness, as you're aware.
Now, James, as someone who would defend -- hold on -- as someone who defended President Clinton, who literally chose his own family vacation based on polling, to say sit and lecture this White House, which is less phony than the one who preceded it, you have got to give me a break.
CARVILLE: This tax cut, the numbers are phony. This administration has phony numbers. There's not a real thing about this tax cut, down to the no ties that the people that claim to be supporting it are wearing. CARLSON: Well, as usual, if you ever lose this job, I know you'll be an excellent bumper sticker writer, because that's basically what your arguments amount to.
CARVILLE: $290 billion you all blew.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Put it on a bumper sticker. Visualize world peace.
The government wants you to protect yourself. And if you don't, they'll hurt you. That's the message from Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta, who has announced a new and authoritarian plan to enforce seat belt use.
Starting next Monday, law enforcement agencies in all 50 states will hunt down and punish people who don't buckle up. Adults, that is. The program will include road patrols, and we are not making this up, seat belt checkpoints near shopping malls and high schools.
Not to be outdone, the Department of Health and Human Services will announce spot checks by armed federal marshalls at restaurants to make certain that you have, in fact, brushed your teeth this morning.
CARVILLE: I'll tell you one thing, Tucker, you are consistent in your opposition to the nanny (ph) state.
CARLSON: I am totally consistent. And I must say, the Republican Party does a much better job of resisting it, but sometimes it falls down and fails. And this is one of those cases. If you don't want to wear your own seat belt, you shouldn't have to. Nobody should punish you for not protecting yourself.
CARVILLE: For those of you who want to -- what about child labor laws?
CARLSON: James, I'm talking about consenting adults.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So you don't hold Rick Santorum's views on gays. You think if two people want to have sex, they ought to have sex.
CARLSON: The point is...
CARVILLE: I'm just asking you.
CARSLON: ... consenting adults should not, within reasonable limits, be told on a what to do by the government. I don't think the government ought to be breaking down doors and telling you what you can do in the sack or not. And I don't think they ought to tell you...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So unlikely Bill Bailey (ph), do you believe if somebody wants to smoke a joint, they ought not go to jail? OK.
I want to say this. The "Fort Worth Star-Telegram" is an outstanding newspaper, but they have published what has to be a lie. They say that the Department of Homeland Security was used to track down Democratic Texas legislators.
This is an agency that's sitting here to protect us and the likes of Mohammed Atta, that is sitting there under the most great thing that was started up and inspired by the Bill Clinton administration and championed by Joe Lieberman. And we were told that this was going to make us safer.
And what are they doing? They're using it for -- they claim it was used for a political end to track down Democratic politicians. I just refuse to believe this. I think somebody needs to investigate this.
CARLSON: Well, I don't know. James...
CARVILLE: I cannot believe that we're using the Department of Homeland Security to track down politicians and not terrorists.
CARLSON: I don't know why you're attacking the "Fort Worth Star- Telegram." I don't think you ought to blame journalists first. But the fact is, I will be shocked if it turns out that any federal law enforcement official was involved in any way in the search for the cry babies from the Texas legislature who ran away to Oklahoma.
CARVILLE: Well then the "Fort Worth Star-Telegram" -- then we need to find out why the "Fort Worth Star-Telegram"...
CARLSON: James, I don't think you read the paper very carefully.
CARVILLE: I have the article right here. They reported that the Department of Homeland Security was trying to track down an airplane belonging to a Texas Democratic legislator. They must be (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: James, there are no Department of Homeland Security police. These were state police that went to track them down.
CARVILLE: I think this story is so outrageous, it cannot be true. I want to defend the Department of Homeland Security. You would never allow yourself to be politicized like that. And I don't know what happened to the "Fort Worth Star-Telegram," because it's impossible for this story to be true.
CARLSON: OK. We'll figure that one and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that speech in just a moment.
But first, Bill Clinton always said he wanted to imitate JFK. His wish turned out to be truer than we ever suspected. Next, we'll show you the first photographs of the woman who now admits a relationship with the president. Will Kennedy's intern permanently tarnish Camelot's legacy.
And what is Camelot, anyway? And why are we still talking about it 40 years later? That's our debate.
Later, Senator John Sununu gives us a Rapidfire update on when your tax cut will be ready. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: A new biography of President Kennedy has been the talk of the town this week. And it isn't because "An Unfinished Life," by Robert Dallek, shows how Kennedy faced down his private health problems, not to mention (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at home and communists abroad. No, everyone's talking about a little bitty part that says the president had an affair with an intern.
Today, a woman in New York issued a statement saying she's the one. "From June, 1962 to November, 1963, I was involved in a sexual relationship with President Kennedy." Now that this poor lady's privacy has been shredded, do you suppose Republican blue noses in Congress will postdate a bill of impeachment?
In the CROSSFIRE to talk about Kennedy's legacy are former Congressman Bob Dornan of California and President Clinton's former special counsel, Lanny Davis.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Lanny Davis, probably the most revealing and distressing line in the Dallek book says this about the woman in question "Her only skill was to provide sexual release to JFK." In other words, he treated her as an object or an animal or a piece of kleenex.
Wonder why Democrats still have a lock on the feminist vote when there's obvious evidence a number of Democratic presidents don't respect women and treat them like dirt.
LANNY DAVIS, FMR. CLINTON SPECIAL COUNSEL: You know the only reason I said yes to coming on the program tonight, other than the fact I love arguing with you...
CARLSON: Well, thank you, Lanny.
DAVIS: ... is to remind everybody the reason why the American people turned off on the Republican Party in 1998 and rejected what they tried to do to Bill Clinton was because the double standard that applies to peoples private lives that nobody but moralistic, sanctimonious, double standard, right wing Republicans who tried to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Bill Clinton down...
CARLSON: Really? Because as someone who likes women and respects women, if you take a 19-year-old girl, you're a 45-year-old man and you treat her like she is just an object for sexual release, I don't know, I'm not much of a feminist. I'm kind of opposed to that, aren't you?
(APPLAUSE)
DAVIS: I'm opposed to it and I wouldn't do it myself. But here's the difference. And I hope my friend Bob Dornan agrees. I don't think he will.
The difference is I do not impose my personal morality on other people. That's between me and my wife and my maker. Republicans seem to want to play double standards. While certainly going after Bill Clinton and maybe even forgiving John Kennedy, they're practicing the same very acts in their own private life.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman Dornan, let me try to get to you here. As I take it, you believe that a person's marital fidelity says a lot about what kind of leader that person will be?
BOB DORNAN, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: James, I heard your beloved wife, who I consider a friend, say once that one of her favorite movies of all time is "Gladiator." You know what the opening was of "Gladiator"? Was Maximus saying strength and honor to all his men.
Wait a minute. Then he said, "What we do in life echoes through eternity."
And you know what? What Kennedy did in life, what Clinton did in life will echo through eternity. I can hear the echo now.
CARVILLE: So you believe that marital fidelity is a predictor of leadership?
DORNAN: I heard a CEO once say "If I find out a man's cheating on his wife, I fire him, because if he break a contract with his wife from a church temple or justice of the peace, and he'll betray his wife and children, he'll betray me as my business partner."
CARVILLE: Let me tell you presidents that we know were cheating on their wives. Jefferson, Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton. Let me tell you presidents who we know...
DORNAN: We don't know that Reagan did that.
CARVILLE: Oh sure we did.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We know he cheated on Jane Wyman. Absolutely. It's been in every biography. And we suspect that Eisenhower did. Let me tell you ones that didn't.
DORNAN: Eisenhower was the ambulance driver and he wrote a letter to Mamie and said, "May I please come home" to George Marshall.
CARVILLE: Let me tell you those who didn't and those who did. Let me tell you the people we know didn't. Nixon, Carter, Hoover and Coolidge.
DORNAN: And Newt Gingrich.
CARVILLE: No Newt Gingrich did.
DORNAN: Did, right. So I'll concede you that one.
CARVILLE: I'm saying, what makes you believe that a person's marital fidelity is any indicator of what kind of leader they're going to be?
DORNAN: Have you ever seen an A-plus student that says, you know, I smoke pot regularly and it doesn't bother my grades? You know the -- wait a minute.
CARVILLE: Answer the question.
DORNAN: James, I'm going to answer the question, intellectually. Don't let it go over your head. You know what the answer is to that A-plus student? What kind of student would you be if you weren't a pothead?
(CROSSTALK)
DORNAN: What kind of president would he have been without burning down Camelot?
CARLSON: Congressman, I just want to ask Lanny Davis a question. Now, Lanny, I don't want to, in any way, be one of those mean, right wing moralizing conservatives you made reference to a moment ago. Evil, I think, too. But can we both agree that it's wrong, at least untoward, for a political leader, even a Democratic president, to give a federal job to a teenager in return for sex?
A federal job paid for with tax dollars? Can we agree that that's wrong? Or is that moralizing, too?
DAVIS: No, we can certainly agree that would be wrong.
CARLSON: Oh, it would. OK. So that was wrong when Kennedy did it and probably wrong when Clinton did the same thing.
DAVIS: First of all -- you had your chance, Bob. Let me speak. First of all, I don't know whether what this lady is saying is true.
It took her 50 years to suddenly start talking about it and telling everybody that she wants her children to know that she has a place in history. So why are we giving absolute credence to...
CARLSON: Because a Kennedy staffer and a former "New York Times" reporter who worked as a press aide to President Kennedy in fact told Robert Dallek, who put it in his book, and then...
DAVIS: Triple hearsay in life, as well as in the law, is something we shouldn't rely on.
CARLSON: Well the woman herself came forward.
DAVIS: Let's at least raise a question. Secondly, I don't really care what President Kennedy did with his private life, nor do I care...
CARLSON: What, giving a federal job is not a private life question, is it?
DAVIS: ... that any great president -- if people violate the law, that would be a violation of the law. They ought to be prosecuted. But if any president of the United States has private failings -- and we all have private failings as human beings -- let's at least not be so judgmental and let's look at their performance.
CARLSON: I'm not being judgmental.
CARVILLE: Let me go back and see if I can get you to answer a question. Jefferson, Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton all cheated on their wives. Hoover, Coolidge, Nixon, Carter never did.
DORNAN: Which half do you want me to answer? Let's take the first four. If they hadn't done it, how much better a president would they have been?
Look, I know these sound bite shows are fast, but let's get some facts on the table. Evelyn Lincoln, she picked up a note -- it's in her book -- that Kennedy threw (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on Caroline in the campaign plane and she picks it up and reads it and saves it and puts it in her book.
He says to a friend across the aisle on the campaign plane, did you see that tall, leggy blond last night? I nailed her. I guess when I'm in the White House, no more (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Do you know what that tells me about Kennedy? That he was a sleaze ball.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That doesn't have anything to do with what kind of president he is.
DORNAN: Wait a minute. Here's the second one. Carly Simon is on the "Today Show." She's a friend of Jackie. They shopped together at Martha's Vineyard.
She says Jackie told me more than once -- think Hillary now -- how horrible it is to be married to a man who degrades you and cheats on you all the time. You want number three?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what you do? You don't answer the question.
DORNAN: James, I'm answering the question. James, listen to Ben Bradley (ph). He's on a show, I'm watching him and he says, you know Kennedy told me once that the three things he would like to change in his life would be his father, his wife and his Catholic religion. You know what? Kennedy is dead now in history. He's slime.
CARLSON: Gentlemen, we're going to have to end it there. I wanted to get you back in, Lanny, but, frankly, you didn't yell loud enough. But thank you very much for joining us, Lanny Davis, Congressman Dornan. Thank you both.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thank you.
In just a minute, a quick check of the news headlines, and then it's the quickest question-and-answer segment in television. We'll give tax cuts the Rapidfire treatment.
Later, a former Clinton sycophant continues to sniff the throne. We'll summarize his book and save you $30. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for Rapidfire. Short questions, short answers and no filibustering allowed. Joining us from Capitol Hill, where the Senate is working toward passing President Bush's tax cut to the rich, is Republican Senator John Sununu of New Hampshire.
CARLSON: Senator Sununu, every poll we've done at CNN shows the public supports the president's plan on the economy and specifically supports the tax cut, and yet the White House didn't get the tax cut it wanted. This is a failure for the White House, isn't it?
SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, it's not a failure. They're going to get most of what they want. We can argue about whether it's 75 percent, 80 percent, but we're going to get a tax cut off the floor of the Senate, get one out of conference. And the goal is to increase the strength of the economy and create some jobs. We're going to do that.
CARVILLE: The deficit this year, how big will it be, Congressman?
SUNUNU: I think it's projected to be $400, maybe $500 billion. We've had the sharpest reduction in revenues in modern history because of the recession. That's why we need a jobs package. And we've got to put some more restraint on the growth of spending if we're going to get back to balance.
CARLSON: Now Democrats have been proposing wild spending, they haven't slowed down at all, deficit-busting spending. Republicans have said virtually nothing about this. The Republican Party needs better PR, doesn't it?
SUNUNU: Well, it certainly wouldn't hurt if we talked a little bit about the amendments that have been proposed, amendment after amendment, tens of billions of dollars in spending in the coming year. That's how you increase the size of a deficit. If you want to do something about a deficit, strengthen the economy, increase revenue collections, control the growth of spending. We do have a spend (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and I think it's something in the order of half a trillion dollars in new spending that the Democrats have proposed and voted for on the floor of the Senate just in the past three months.
CARVILLE: Senator, it will cost $1 trillion to fix the alternative minimum tax. Do you support this $1 trillion tax cut?
SUNUNU: I support making the tax code more fair. And the AMT is hitting middle class families. It shouldn't be; that's not what it was designed for.
We need to fix it. And I don't think you ask a question of whether it costs $10 billion or $20 billion or $30 billion. You ask the question, is it good, fair tax policy? And I think that is...
CARVILLE: It costs $1 trillion. It costs $1 trillion. Do you support it?
SUNUNU: $1 trillion over how much time? You're telling me how big the economy is going to be in 10 years? Do you know that, James? Of course you don't know that. If you make the tax code more fair, you're going to strengthen the economy and you're not going to hurt the deficit.
CARLSON: OK. Senator, one quick prediction. Democrats keep telling us interest rates are going to go up because of the deficit. Will they and how much?
SUNUNU: They won't go up. If you look over the past 10 years and try to find a direct correlation between interest rates and the deficit, you can't find one. It's surprising to me, as someone that was on the Budget Committee. But there's -- you haven't been able to find a direct correlation because the impact is so small.
CARLSON: That is fascinating. Senator John Sununu of New Hampshire, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
SUNUNU: Thank you. Good to talk to you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: One of our viewers has remembered a very important anniversary. We'll let him fire back in just a moment. We'll return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. His former colleagues are dripping with contempt for him. Now the rest of the world will be too. One-time White House and professional Clinton throne sniffer, Sydney Blumenthal, has written an account of his years serving Bill and Hillary Clinton in a variety of positions.
The book, called "The Clinton Wars," contains no fewer than 18 different photographs of the author hovering around his heroes, the Clintons. The text, self righteous and sanctimonious to the very last word, matches the illustrations.
The point of it all? As "The New York Times" pointed out this morning in a devastating review, "Blumenthal sends a clear message to his administration colleagues: mom liked me best."
CARVILLE: Well let me point out two things. Number one, I'm a colleague of him and I'm not dripping in contempt with him. So is Mr. Begala. I know a lot of people who like Sydney.
Let me point out another thing. You never read the book. It was delivered to you 15 minutes before. And you're talking about deposing the whole thing.
You're like one of these jackasses out protesting a movie and somebody comes up and says, have you ever seen it and you say no. So actually, before you go...
CARLSON: Actually, James, that's not true.
CARVILLE: ... on here and tell these viewers something about a book, you ought to read it first, which would be something new. You were just delivered it; I was there, 15 minutes before the show.
Fireback: "Robert Novak, congratulations on the 40th anniversary of your column. Keep standing up for what's good and right in this country." Matthew Klint, Los Angeles, California.
Bob, for 40 years, wrote his first column May 15, 1963. Forty years later, he's still writing and still on TV.
CARLSON: All right. "Tucker, if you ever said anything nice about Democrats, I would faint." -- Diane Davidson, Midlothian, Virginia.
Well, actually, I can say something nice. I think Al Sharpton will be a terrific nominee. He will overcome the race-tinged attacks from fellow Democrats like James Carville. He'll overcome that and then he's on to victory.
CARVILLE: Maybe the next time that Tucker talks about somebody's book he'll actually read it, which would be a first time.
"James, with your glasses on you look like you belong in the "Matrix." -- Dr. Nicholas Cram, College Station, Texas. All right, there it is.
CARLSON: That is stunningly unattractive.
CARVILLE: What is the "Matrix" about?
CARLSON: I have no idea what it was. It's one of those movies I haven't seen.
CARVILLE: I'll be glad to... (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But you know what? I don't need to see a review of the movie. I've seen (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That's all I need to know.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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Reevaluating Camelot>
