Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
Interview With Al Sharpton; Will Hillary's Book Sell?
Aired June 04, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, he's serious about running for President. We'll ask Al Sharpton if he can kick President Bush out of the White House.
Plus, now that we know she wanted to wring her husband's neck, who wants to buy Hillary Clinton's book? And, some courthouse keeping tips for Martha Stewart.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. There are a ton of things to talk about today, and presidential candidate Al Sharpton is here to help us do the talking. He'll join us in a few minutes. But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: The Hillary Rodham Clinton book blitz is under way and, not surprisingly, it's kind of sad. According to excerpts from her book, "Living History," Mrs. Clinton claims to be the only person in the United States of America who steadfastly believed her husband's denials of his affair with Monica Lewinsky.
She writes she was "dumbfounded, heartbroken and outraged" when he finally told her the truth. Now that you know that, do you still want to spend $28 to read the book's other 576 pages? Booksellers are betting not.
"The Washington Times" quotes one who says she ordered 10 copies of Mrs. Clinton's book as opposed to 400 copies of the New installment of "Harry Potter." Some forms of fantasy apparently are in higher demand than others.
CARVILLE: Well, "The Washington Times" of course is very objective. Amazon I think it's number one already. So apparently somebody is buying the book. And you now, it's amazing that apparently Mrs. Clinton stands accused by you of the terrible crime of believing her husband. Now there are a lot of women out there that -- you know, Tucker, you just hate Mrs. Clinton.
CARLSON: I don't hate Mrs. Clinton at all.
CARVILLE: You do. You're going to criticize her.
CARLSON: But you know that that's not true. You know that I want her to run for president, for instance.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: And you know that I give her truly the benefit of the doubt. If she says she doesn't know, it does leave open the question, is she qualified to be a United States senator if she didn't know?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you one thing, she knows the difference between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, which is more than the guy we got here now.
The Republican Party's answer to everything is tax cuts for the rich. And today, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay came right out and admitted he has no interest in including a $6.5 million lower income tax for military families who aren't getting a child tax credit. But don't be fooled in thinking this is only Tom DeLay's doing. The President had no intention of including lower income tax credit either.
Remember who negotiated the tax cut on Capitol Hill? Lower level (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from the White House that was sent over, none other than Vice President Dick Cheney. It was no accident. What can we look forward to this summer from the president? You guessed it, even more tax cuts for the rich.
CARLSON: Actually, it's not -- well, first of all, I do think that the child tax credit will be expanded. And, second, James, as you know -- I think you may have missed our tax show -- it's not just a tax cut for the rich. In fact, it's primarily a tax cut for people with kids, for the average family of four. Each parent making $35,000 a year gets...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Now let me get this right. If I get a dividend -- this is the deal. I have kids, and so I think I'm getting over five years a half a million dollar tax cut for the dividend. But if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't get this.
CARLSON: No. That has nothing to do with it.
CARVILLE: Oh, I see. I didn't know. I'm sorry. You see, I'm so stupid that I thought his number one priority was the dividend tax cut, which don't have a damn thing to do with whether you have kids or five lives worth (ph) a billion dollars.
CARLSON: As you know, the tax cut that just passed, you don't want to admit it, it actually gives money to people who need it. And I'm sure...
CARVILLE: I'm sorry, America. Thank god I've got kids and I can get my dividend tax cut.
CARLSON: In other Hillary Clinton news today, Martha Stewart, the close friend and fund-raiser for the New York senator, was indicted today on charges of conspiracy, obstruction of justice and securities fraud. She pleaded not guilty to all counts.
Was the queen of cooking, gardening and fine Kmart bath towels singled out because of her fame and good housekeeping skills? There seems little doubt that she was. On the other hand, if there is one lesson Stewart can take from the Clinton years, it's what humiliates me makes me stronger.
Perhaps now she can write her own tell-all book with an $8 million book advance. And I say, more power to her.
CARVILLE: Let me get this. Did Hillary Clinton and Martha Stewart write 350 letters to each other? That's the count that George Bush and Ken Lay did. So here we are because Hillary Clinton knows Martha Stewart.
CARLSON: At some point -- at some point...
CARVILLE: She knows Martha Stewart and you attack Mrs. Clinton.
CARLSON: I want to explain to you the difference between a non sequitur and an argument. I don't hate Hillary Clinton. That's a non sequitur.
CARVILLE: Well, what, 350 letters between George Bush and Ken Lay. You attack Hillary Clinton because you just hate her, man. You know you have to try to go to a psychiatrist to get over your hatred.
CARLSON: That is really insane. Actually...
CARVILLE: The idea of a powerful woman in politics just makes you conservatives (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You just can't stand it.
CARLSON: I support her and I'll come out right now. I hope she runs for president.
CARVILLE: If you heard about the welcome home special (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was offering to U.S. troops returning from the war in Iraq, it was Hillary Clinton's idea. And the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Bunny Ranch is giving away 50 gift bags of, shall we say, personal items (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is the result of Hillary Clinton that people are doing this.
In plain English, that's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and adult magazines. And the returning warriors also get certificates and free services from the ranch's personnel. So far, 13 men and women have taken advantage of the offer, but even late comers will get a 50 percent discount. Sorry, no press passes. Again, it is all Hillary Clinton's fault, because she knows Martha Stewart.
CARLSON: James, I think we've reached this moment.
CARVILLE: You have to go to a psychiatrist to get over your hatred of her.
CARLSON: Some of us here have wondered what's going to happen, but when something deep inside your tiny brain just snaps and you become completely impossible to understand -- for instance, that last Political Alert, there are women going to the brothel?
CARVILLE: No, it was -- you would say -- the conservatives would say it's her idea they did this. I'm just showing how ridiculous you all are.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: You know, have you ever heard of irony?
CARLSON: We'll get this ironed out and explain it when we return. You don't have to contain your excitement any longer. Next, American folk hero and leading Democratic presidential contender Al Sharpton steps into the CROSSFIRE. Find out how he plans to win the White House.
Don't go away, you won't want to miss a second of Al Sharpton, American folk hero. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: The promise of America is that anyone can grow up and run for president. But running is one thing; getting elected is another. In the CROSSFIRE today is Democratic presidential candidate, at least for now, Al Sharpton.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Mr. Sharpton, thanks for joining us, as always.
REV. AL SHARPTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you.
CARLSON: Your party, the Democratic Party, pays, as you know, lip service to the idea of diversity, but you've been treated with contempt and derision by your fellow Democrats since you've announced.
I want to give you one example. This is Paul Begala, our co- host, here on CROSSFIRE on January 30th. Here's what he says about you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Nobody on the Sharpton bandwagon accepts the right wing cranks, and there's a good reason. That's the only people that like him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Mr. Sharpton, only cranks support you? Why are you treated this way by your fellow Democrats, I wonder?
SHARPTON: Well, you show one person. And he has his right to his opinion, just like anybody else does. I think clearly we've shown support around the country, and the support will be demonstrated in the primaries.
I'm not going to respond to one person. I will stay in defense of my party that I've been treated a lot better than your party treated Alan Keys. So I think that...
CARLSON: Wait. That's actually not true. Alan Keys was in the debates.
SHARPTON: He got arrested for trying to get into one.
CARLSON: But the point is, here you are -- that was in '96. In 2000 he was in all the debates. But here you are...
SHARPTON: I didn't get arrested to get into the debates.
CARLSON: Well, you still have time to get arrested. But you're running a path-breaking, trail-blazing candidacy, and I wonder why you haven't been embraced. You haven't.
SHARPTON: Well I think, first of all, when you look at a lot of leadership -- I mean you showed a pundit. From Congressman (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to the mayor of Newark, Sharpe James, and others who are endorsing me, I think you'd be hard pressed to say, because you have some pundits that disagree, that that's speaking for the leadership of the party. I'm not going to let you get away with that.
CARVILLE: Reverend Sharpton, would you tell him who Charlotte Chisolm (ph) was? I don't know if he was even born when...
SHARPTON: Well, surely. Chisolm (ph) ran for president in 1972. I was the chief director of her campaign.
CARVILLE: And she was -- was she an African-American?
SHARPTON: African-American woman.
CARVILLE: And a Democrat.
SHARPTON: And a Democrat. And...
CARLSON: So why aren't you getting the respect that she got, I wonder?
SHARPTON: Do you know the kind of respect she got? Again, many people (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
CARLSON: Then what is wrong with your party?
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... Jesse Jackson. He helped think (ph) up Sister Solja. He's acting consistent. That's not the Democratic Party.
CARVILLE: Now, Reverend Sharpton, Mr. Carlson believes that I should treat you different because you're an African-American candidate, as opposed to -- he's treating it as opposed to a Democratic candidate running for president. I think I ought to treat you as I would treat any other Democrat. He views it differently, but that's the way we Democrats are; we're color blind.
CARLSON: Yes, I noticed that. Yes.
SHARPTON: I think that Mr. Carlson and others in his party have a strange use of affirmative action when they want to have it.
CARVILLE: I agree with you. Let me ask you a question here, sir. There would be nobody running for president right now if the Democratic nomination had ever endorsed a Republican for the United States Senate, would there be?
SHARPTON: That's not true.
CARVILLE: That's not true?
SHARPTON: I remember when I was a kid Reverend Jackson supported Charles Percy (ph). We've had to fight Democrats.
CARVILLE: But then (UNINTELLIGIBLE) . Is there any chance they could...
SHARPTON: That's not what you said.
CARVILLE: No, I said any chance...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I don't know. It's very possible. It's very possible.
CARVILLE: And could there possibly be one that...
SHARPTON: It's very possible. Absolutely.
CARVILLE: Could that one be Al Sharpton?
SHARPTON: Well I endorsed a Republican and then said publicly I was wrong. But every Democrat, Mr. Carville, that is in office today in New York, from Hillary Clinton to Chuck Schumer to Eliot Spitzer, all of whom go to my headquarter, went there with my support. Ask any statewide elected Democrat today.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Now just for the record, because I've...
SHARPTON: Twenty years ago.
CARVILLE: OK. Twenty years ago...
SHARPTON: And let me respond.
CARVILLE: OK. All right.
SHARPTON: Twenty years ago I had a mistake of thinking that a Republican was going to continue in the tradition of Jacob Javitz (ph), who had a good rapport with her (ph). He didn't, and we tried to...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Sharpton, speaking of New York politics, did -- Mr. Sharpton, when was the last time you spoke to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton?
SHARPTON: The last time I called her?
CARLSON: Yes.
SHARPTON: It's been since I talked to George Bush.
CARLSON: When specifically was the last time you spoke to her?
SHARPTON: Whenever I called her. When I call her, Senator -- I talk to Republicans, I talk to your majority leader.
CARLSON: Well, I bet you do, but...
SHARPTON: I don't keep a calendar. I talk to Bill Frist as much as I talk to Hillary Clinton.
CARLSON: But you're not embarrassed to speak to Senator Clinton, are you?
SHARPTON: When I need to call her, I call her on issues. And she responds, as Bill Frist responds. That's not a party...
CARLSON: I'm not saying it is.
CARVILLE: Reverend Sharpton, you're running for president. He has a thing about woman and having power; he hates it. So I want to ask you a question.
CARLSON: That is actually the dumbest thing I...
CARVILLE: What would you do about this economy if you're president, as opposed to...
SHARPTON: First of all, I think that we must deal with the fact that the president's tax cut is really a tax (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We are now in state deficits all over the country, a record number. What he's done is, by giving the tax cut to the wealthy, he's forced states that have deficits to increase sales tax, property tax. Mass transit is growing (ph) up in places like New York.
So poor people are paying a tax without calling a tax. And it's not a cut, it is a shift.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: We don't need a tax cut that really shifts the burden.
CARVILLE: I agree with you.
SHARPTON: Second, we need to invest in creating new jobs. I've said in the Sharpton campaign that we need a $250 billion...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What's more important for the next president, to know when you talk to Hillary Clinton or do something about this economy? What would be the biggest priority?
CARLSON: I want you to answer a simple question, Mr. Sharpton.
CARVILLE: I think it would be important to talk to every U.S. senator about the economy, including Hillary Clinton.
CARLSON: Right. OK. Now, Mr. Sharpton, let's talk. Before you start making policy and before you call Mrs. Clinton again, let's talk about your campaign.
SHARPTON: I thought CROSSFIRE was about policy.
CARLSON: It's about politics, as well. And I want to ask you this political question. You've raised so far apparently about $114,456. Contrast that to Senator John Edwards of North Carolina, who has raised $7.4 million, some of it under questionable circumstances.
And yet, our latest poll from CNN shows you beating Edwards. You were at seven points, he is at six points. How can you beat him when you're at $114,000 and he's at $7.4? How did you do that?
SHARPTON: Maybe that's why I should be president, because I can get more bounce out of a dollar. And I can show you how to do it.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You're also, I noticed, you're also beating former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, who is conventionally thought of as being the voice of the left. Kind of surprising. What do you bring to the field that Howard Dean does not?
SHARPTON: Again, I'm not a pundit, I don't get into polls. I think that what we do bring is a clear strategy of trying to expand the party to the -- a lot of people have become disillusioned with the process since the 2000 election. And really presenting them that they can be heard, they can be included, that's the only way we're going to be successful, in my judgment, in the 2004 race as a Democratic Party.
We can't go without expanding the base. We have to have core values, but we need to bring in people that have become...
CARLSON: OK. Well, we're going to take a quick break. I hope, Reverend Sharpton, your party begins to treat you with the respect you deserve, and that includes Mr. Carville. Don't write off Al Sharpton.
The presidential primaries keep getting earlier. We've decided why wait. We're asking our studio audience to pull out their voting devices and tell us right now, does Al Sharpton have a chance to be elected president of the United States?
True believers, press one for yes, he has a chance. Skeptics and Democratic operatives, press two for no, he has no chance. We'll take a quick break.
Just ahead, Wolf Blitzer gives us a check of the headlines, and we'll tell you the results of our audience poll. Does Al Sharpton have a chance in "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers come even faster than people jumping on the Sharpton bandwagon. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Rapid Fire," the fastest question-and-answer session in television. Let's kick it off with the answer to our Ask the Audience question.
Does Al Sharpton have a chance to be elected president? We'll put the results up on the big board. And they are, yes, 23 percent, no, 77 percent. Al Sharpton, are you going to pack it in?
SHARPTON: Absolutely not. I think I've got about 20 more points than I got the last time you asked the question.
CARVILLE: There you go.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: If the 77 are right and you're not the party's nominee, will you run -- have you pledged not to run not as a third party candidate, or will you consider it?
SHARPTON: I've said from the beginning if I was interested in running as a third party candidate, I would have done that from the beginning. I will be in the party. I hope to support the nominee, I hope to be the nominee. But I will not be running for the third party.
CARLSON: Give me three names of people you'd consider for a vice presidential candidate.
SHARPTON: I don't know. I don't want to play the name game. It would have to be someone that I would believe that would stand by the views that I think are important and that could help to expand the party and beat George Bush. That's the goal in '04.
CARVILLE: If you're elected president and there are still 150,000 to 200,000 American troops in Iraq, would you begin an orderly withdrawal of those troops or would you continue with the nation building that's going on?
SHARPTON: Well, I don't know how much nation building is going on. I would begin an orderly withdrawal. I would also begin to really make sure there's a democracy in place there and then hope to bring it to Florida before my first term is over.
CARLSON: Who's presidency would you model yours after?
SHARPTON: I respected pre-Vietnam Lyndon Johnson. I thought he was a good president. I respected Roosevelt. But I probably would take a little of Bill Clinton, though I disagree with him on social issues. There were presidents that did things I thought were worthy of emulating.
CARVILLE: Would you consider a woman for a running mate?
SHARPTON: Absolutely. I think that -- you know, in '84, when Reverend Jackson ran, one of the things that we pushed was a woman. And we got the first woman on the ticket, Geraldine Ferraro, who I worked with her from time to time in New York. I think it's a good thing, I wonder whether Republicans will ever have a woman on the ticket.
CARLSON: We're just watching your candidacy. The Reverend Al Sharpton from New York, the next nominee of the Democratic Party. Thank you.
SHARPTON: All right. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Next, a "Fireback" from none other than legendary "Washington Post" editor Ben Bradlee. You're not going to believe what he wrote about one of our guests. We'll tell you. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It's time for "Fireback." A couple of weeks ago, former loud mouth Congressman Bob Dornan was here to debate the legacy of President John F. Kennedy. Here's a short clip of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB DORNAN, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: James, I'm answering the question. CARVILLE: You're not answering it.
DORNAN: James, listen to Ben Bradlee. He's on a show, I'm watching him, and he says, you know, Kennedy told me once that the three things he would like to change in his life would be his father, his wife and his Catholic religion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Ben Bradlee, probably one of the most respected people in Washington and the famed "Washington Post" former editor, has fired back a letter to us about who we call "crazy" Bob Dornan.
"For the record, I never said that on any show (television or radio). Kennedy never said any such thing to me. I have never met Dornan. I would not know him if I fell on him, and I would like the audience to know the facts -- Sincerely, Ben Bradlee."
Mr. Bradlee, don't worry about it. He's not just crazy, he's a liar, like the rest of that whole sickening pack.
CARLSON: I can't get out of my mind the image of Ben Bradlee falling on Bob Dornan. So I'm going to leave it right on that.
CARVILLE: I'll bet you if (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hit him hard enough he'd fall on anybody.
CARLSON: Next up, Armando Gutierrez from Corpus Christi writes: "You don't have to support Sharpton to demand that he be treated with respect." And that, Mr. Gutierrez, is my demand. And I just wish James Carville would see him as a man worthy of respect.
CARVILLE: I wasn't the one who asked him how many times he called Senator Clinton.
CARLSON: Treat him with respect, James. Come on.
CARVILLE: I was going to ask him what he'd do about the economy.
"I can't wait to see Tucker Carlson eat his shoes, as promised, if Hillary sells one million copies of her book. Pass the barbecue sauce, please." (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Leominster, Massachusetts.
CARLSON: Leominster.
CARVILLE: Leominster, there you go.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I will eat my shoes, too.
Terry from Seattle writes: "Tucker, for once I agree with you. A real Democrat would enthusiastically support Al Sharpton and would not go for "Bush Lite" (Kerry, Lieberman and Graham)."
That's an excellent point, Terry. And some people just care about winning more than they care about principle. But a real Democrat would support Al Sharpton, and I hope you change your mind, James.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And, from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 4, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, he's serious about running for President. We'll ask Al Sharpton if he can kick President Bush out of the White House.
Plus, now that we know she wanted to wring her husband's neck, who wants to buy Hillary Clinton's book? And, some courthouse keeping tips for Martha Stewart.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. There are a ton of things to talk about today, and presidential candidate Al Sharpton is here to help us do the talking. He'll join us in a few minutes. But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: The Hillary Rodham Clinton book blitz is under way and, not surprisingly, it's kind of sad. According to excerpts from her book, "Living History," Mrs. Clinton claims to be the only person in the United States of America who steadfastly believed her husband's denials of his affair with Monica Lewinsky.
She writes she was "dumbfounded, heartbroken and outraged" when he finally told her the truth. Now that you know that, do you still want to spend $28 to read the book's other 576 pages? Booksellers are betting not.
"The Washington Times" quotes one who says she ordered 10 copies of Mrs. Clinton's book as opposed to 400 copies of the New installment of "Harry Potter." Some forms of fantasy apparently are in higher demand than others.
CARVILLE: Well, "The Washington Times" of course is very objective. Amazon I think it's number one already. So apparently somebody is buying the book. And you now, it's amazing that apparently Mrs. Clinton stands accused by you of the terrible crime of believing her husband. Now there are a lot of women out there that -- you know, Tucker, you just hate Mrs. Clinton.
CARLSON: I don't hate Mrs. Clinton at all.
CARVILLE: You do. You're going to criticize her.
CARLSON: But you know that that's not true. You know that I want her to run for president, for instance.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: And you know that I give her truly the benefit of the doubt. If she says she doesn't know, it does leave open the question, is she qualified to be a United States senator if she didn't know?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you one thing, she knows the difference between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, which is more than the guy we got here now.
The Republican Party's answer to everything is tax cuts for the rich. And today, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay came right out and admitted he has no interest in including a $6.5 million lower income tax for military families who aren't getting a child tax credit. But don't be fooled in thinking this is only Tom DeLay's doing. The President had no intention of including lower income tax credit either.
Remember who negotiated the tax cut on Capitol Hill? Lower level (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from the White House that was sent over, none other than Vice President Dick Cheney. It was no accident. What can we look forward to this summer from the president? You guessed it, even more tax cuts for the rich.
CARLSON: Actually, it's not -- well, first of all, I do think that the child tax credit will be expanded. And, second, James, as you know -- I think you may have missed our tax show -- it's not just a tax cut for the rich. In fact, it's primarily a tax cut for people with kids, for the average family of four. Each parent making $35,000 a year gets...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Now let me get this right. If I get a dividend -- this is the deal. I have kids, and so I think I'm getting over five years a half a million dollar tax cut for the dividend. But if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't get this.
CARLSON: No. That has nothing to do with it.
CARVILLE: Oh, I see. I didn't know. I'm sorry. You see, I'm so stupid that I thought his number one priority was the dividend tax cut, which don't have a damn thing to do with whether you have kids or five lives worth (ph) a billion dollars.
CARLSON: As you know, the tax cut that just passed, you don't want to admit it, it actually gives money to people who need it. And I'm sure...
CARVILLE: I'm sorry, America. Thank god I've got kids and I can get my dividend tax cut.
CARLSON: In other Hillary Clinton news today, Martha Stewart, the close friend and fund-raiser for the New York senator, was indicted today on charges of conspiracy, obstruction of justice and securities fraud. She pleaded not guilty to all counts.
Was the queen of cooking, gardening and fine Kmart bath towels singled out because of her fame and good housekeeping skills? There seems little doubt that she was. On the other hand, if there is one lesson Stewart can take from the Clinton years, it's what humiliates me makes me stronger.
Perhaps now she can write her own tell-all book with an $8 million book advance. And I say, more power to her.
CARVILLE: Let me get this. Did Hillary Clinton and Martha Stewart write 350 letters to each other? That's the count that George Bush and Ken Lay did. So here we are because Hillary Clinton knows Martha Stewart.
CARLSON: At some point -- at some point...
CARVILLE: She knows Martha Stewart and you attack Mrs. Clinton.
CARLSON: I want to explain to you the difference between a non sequitur and an argument. I don't hate Hillary Clinton. That's a non sequitur.
CARVILLE: Well, what, 350 letters between George Bush and Ken Lay. You attack Hillary Clinton because you just hate her, man. You know you have to try to go to a psychiatrist to get over your hatred.
CARLSON: That is really insane. Actually...
CARVILLE: The idea of a powerful woman in politics just makes you conservatives (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You just can't stand it.
CARLSON: I support her and I'll come out right now. I hope she runs for president.
CARVILLE: If you heard about the welcome home special (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was offering to U.S. troops returning from the war in Iraq, it was Hillary Clinton's idea. And the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Bunny Ranch is giving away 50 gift bags of, shall we say, personal items (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is the result of Hillary Clinton that people are doing this.
In plain English, that's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and adult magazines. And the returning warriors also get certificates and free services from the ranch's personnel. So far, 13 men and women have taken advantage of the offer, but even late comers will get a 50 percent discount. Sorry, no press passes. Again, it is all Hillary Clinton's fault, because she knows Martha Stewart.
CARLSON: James, I think we've reached this moment.
CARVILLE: You have to go to a psychiatrist to get over your hatred of her.
CARLSON: Some of us here have wondered what's going to happen, but when something deep inside your tiny brain just snaps and you become completely impossible to understand -- for instance, that last Political Alert, there are women going to the brothel?
CARVILLE: No, it was -- you would say -- the conservatives would say it's her idea they did this. I'm just showing how ridiculous you all are.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: You know, have you ever heard of irony?
CARLSON: We'll get this ironed out and explain it when we return. You don't have to contain your excitement any longer. Next, American folk hero and leading Democratic presidential contender Al Sharpton steps into the CROSSFIRE. Find out how he plans to win the White House.
Don't go away, you won't want to miss a second of Al Sharpton, American folk hero. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: The promise of America is that anyone can grow up and run for president. But running is one thing; getting elected is another. In the CROSSFIRE today is Democratic presidential candidate, at least for now, Al Sharpton.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Mr. Sharpton, thanks for joining us, as always.
REV. AL SHARPTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you.
CARLSON: Your party, the Democratic Party, pays, as you know, lip service to the idea of diversity, but you've been treated with contempt and derision by your fellow Democrats since you've announced.
I want to give you one example. This is Paul Begala, our co- host, here on CROSSFIRE on January 30th. Here's what he says about you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Nobody on the Sharpton bandwagon accepts the right wing cranks, and there's a good reason. That's the only people that like him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Mr. Sharpton, only cranks support you? Why are you treated this way by your fellow Democrats, I wonder?
SHARPTON: Well, you show one person. And he has his right to his opinion, just like anybody else does. I think clearly we've shown support around the country, and the support will be demonstrated in the primaries.
I'm not going to respond to one person. I will stay in defense of my party that I've been treated a lot better than your party treated Alan Keys. So I think that...
CARLSON: Wait. That's actually not true. Alan Keys was in the debates.
SHARPTON: He got arrested for trying to get into one.
CARLSON: But the point is, here you are -- that was in '96. In 2000 he was in all the debates. But here you are...
SHARPTON: I didn't get arrested to get into the debates.
CARLSON: Well, you still have time to get arrested. But you're running a path-breaking, trail-blazing candidacy, and I wonder why you haven't been embraced. You haven't.
SHARPTON: Well I think, first of all, when you look at a lot of leadership -- I mean you showed a pundit. From Congressman (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to the mayor of Newark, Sharpe James, and others who are endorsing me, I think you'd be hard pressed to say, because you have some pundits that disagree, that that's speaking for the leadership of the party. I'm not going to let you get away with that.
CARVILLE: Reverend Sharpton, would you tell him who Charlotte Chisolm (ph) was? I don't know if he was even born when...
SHARPTON: Well, surely. Chisolm (ph) ran for president in 1972. I was the chief director of her campaign.
CARVILLE: And she was -- was she an African-American?
SHARPTON: African-American woman.
CARVILLE: And a Democrat.
SHARPTON: And a Democrat. And...
CARLSON: So why aren't you getting the respect that she got, I wonder?
SHARPTON: Do you know the kind of respect she got? Again, many people (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
CARLSON: Then what is wrong with your party?
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... Jesse Jackson. He helped think (ph) up Sister Solja. He's acting consistent. That's not the Democratic Party.
CARVILLE: Now, Reverend Sharpton, Mr. Carlson believes that I should treat you different because you're an African-American candidate, as opposed to -- he's treating it as opposed to a Democratic candidate running for president. I think I ought to treat you as I would treat any other Democrat. He views it differently, but that's the way we Democrats are; we're color blind.
CARLSON: Yes, I noticed that. Yes.
SHARPTON: I think that Mr. Carlson and others in his party have a strange use of affirmative action when they want to have it.
CARVILLE: I agree with you. Let me ask you a question here, sir. There would be nobody running for president right now if the Democratic nomination had ever endorsed a Republican for the United States Senate, would there be?
SHARPTON: That's not true.
CARVILLE: That's not true?
SHARPTON: I remember when I was a kid Reverend Jackson supported Charles Percy (ph). We've had to fight Democrats.
CARVILLE: But then (UNINTELLIGIBLE) . Is there any chance they could...
SHARPTON: That's not what you said.
CARVILLE: No, I said any chance...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I don't know. It's very possible. It's very possible.
CARVILLE: And could there possibly be one that...
SHARPTON: It's very possible. Absolutely.
CARVILLE: Could that one be Al Sharpton?
SHARPTON: Well I endorsed a Republican and then said publicly I was wrong. But every Democrat, Mr. Carville, that is in office today in New York, from Hillary Clinton to Chuck Schumer to Eliot Spitzer, all of whom go to my headquarter, went there with my support. Ask any statewide elected Democrat today.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Now just for the record, because I've...
SHARPTON: Twenty years ago.
CARVILLE: OK. Twenty years ago...
SHARPTON: And let me respond.
CARVILLE: OK. All right.
SHARPTON: Twenty years ago I had a mistake of thinking that a Republican was going to continue in the tradition of Jacob Javitz (ph), who had a good rapport with her (ph). He didn't, and we tried to...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Sharpton, speaking of New York politics, did -- Mr. Sharpton, when was the last time you spoke to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton?
SHARPTON: The last time I called her?
CARLSON: Yes.
SHARPTON: It's been since I talked to George Bush.
CARLSON: When specifically was the last time you spoke to her?
SHARPTON: Whenever I called her. When I call her, Senator -- I talk to Republicans, I talk to your majority leader.
CARLSON: Well, I bet you do, but...
SHARPTON: I don't keep a calendar. I talk to Bill Frist as much as I talk to Hillary Clinton.
CARLSON: But you're not embarrassed to speak to Senator Clinton, are you?
SHARPTON: When I need to call her, I call her on issues. And she responds, as Bill Frist responds. That's not a party...
CARLSON: I'm not saying it is.
CARVILLE: Reverend Sharpton, you're running for president. He has a thing about woman and having power; he hates it. So I want to ask you a question.
CARLSON: That is actually the dumbest thing I...
CARVILLE: What would you do about this economy if you're president, as opposed to...
SHARPTON: First of all, I think that we must deal with the fact that the president's tax cut is really a tax (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We are now in state deficits all over the country, a record number. What he's done is, by giving the tax cut to the wealthy, he's forced states that have deficits to increase sales tax, property tax. Mass transit is growing (ph) up in places like New York.
So poor people are paying a tax without calling a tax. And it's not a cut, it is a shift.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: We don't need a tax cut that really shifts the burden.
CARVILLE: I agree with you.
SHARPTON: Second, we need to invest in creating new jobs. I've said in the Sharpton campaign that we need a $250 billion...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What's more important for the next president, to know when you talk to Hillary Clinton or do something about this economy? What would be the biggest priority?
CARLSON: I want you to answer a simple question, Mr. Sharpton.
CARVILLE: I think it would be important to talk to every U.S. senator about the economy, including Hillary Clinton.
CARLSON: Right. OK. Now, Mr. Sharpton, let's talk. Before you start making policy and before you call Mrs. Clinton again, let's talk about your campaign.
SHARPTON: I thought CROSSFIRE was about policy.
CARLSON: It's about politics, as well. And I want to ask you this political question. You've raised so far apparently about $114,456. Contrast that to Senator John Edwards of North Carolina, who has raised $7.4 million, some of it under questionable circumstances.
And yet, our latest poll from CNN shows you beating Edwards. You were at seven points, he is at six points. How can you beat him when you're at $114,000 and he's at $7.4? How did you do that?
SHARPTON: Maybe that's why I should be president, because I can get more bounce out of a dollar. And I can show you how to do it.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You're also, I noticed, you're also beating former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, who is conventionally thought of as being the voice of the left. Kind of surprising. What do you bring to the field that Howard Dean does not?
SHARPTON: Again, I'm not a pundit, I don't get into polls. I think that what we do bring is a clear strategy of trying to expand the party to the -- a lot of people have become disillusioned with the process since the 2000 election. And really presenting them that they can be heard, they can be included, that's the only way we're going to be successful, in my judgment, in the 2004 race as a Democratic Party.
We can't go without expanding the base. We have to have core values, but we need to bring in people that have become...
CARLSON: OK. Well, we're going to take a quick break. I hope, Reverend Sharpton, your party begins to treat you with the respect you deserve, and that includes Mr. Carville. Don't write off Al Sharpton.
The presidential primaries keep getting earlier. We've decided why wait. We're asking our studio audience to pull out their voting devices and tell us right now, does Al Sharpton have a chance to be elected president of the United States?
True believers, press one for yes, he has a chance. Skeptics and Democratic operatives, press two for no, he has no chance. We'll take a quick break.
Just ahead, Wolf Blitzer gives us a check of the headlines, and we'll tell you the results of our audience poll. Does Al Sharpton have a chance in "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers come even faster than people jumping on the Sharpton bandwagon. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Rapid Fire," the fastest question-and-answer session in television. Let's kick it off with the answer to our Ask the Audience question.
Does Al Sharpton have a chance to be elected president? We'll put the results up on the big board. And they are, yes, 23 percent, no, 77 percent. Al Sharpton, are you going to pack it in?
SHARPTON: Absolutely not. I think I've got about 20 more points than I got the last time you asked the question.
CARVILLE: There you go.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: If the 77 are right and you're not the party's nominee, will you run -- have you pledged not to run not as a third party candidate, or will you consider it?
SHARPTON: I've said from the beginning if I was interested in running as a third party candidate, I would have done that from the beginning. I will be in the party. I hope to support the nominee, I hope to be the nominee. But I will not be running for the third party.
CARLSON: Give me three names of people you'd consider for a vice presidential candidate.
SHARPTON: I don't know. I don't want to play the name game. It would have to be someone that I would believe that would stand by the views that I think are important and that could help to expand the party and beat George Bush. That's the goal in '04.
CARVILLE: If you're elected president and there are still 150,000 to 200,000 American troops in Iraq, would you begin an orderly withdrawal of those troops or would you continue with the nation building that's going on?
SHARPTON: Well, I don't know how much nation building is going on. I would begin an orderly withdrawal. I would also begin to really make sure there's a democracy in place there and then hope to bring it to Florida before my first term is over.
CARLSON: Who's presidency would you model yours after?
SHARPTON: I respected pre-Vietnam Lyndon Johnson. I thought he was a good president. I respected Roosevelt. But I probably would take a little of Bill Clinton, though I disagree with him on social issues. There were presidents that did things I thought were worthy of emulating.
CARVILLE: Would you consider a woman for a running mate?
SHARPTON: Absolutely. I think that -- you know, in '84, when Reverend Jackson ran, one of the things that we pushed was a woman. And we got the first woman on the ticket, Geraldine Ferraro, who I worked with her from time to time in New York. I think it's a good thing, I wonder whether Republicans will ever have a woman on the ticket.
CARLSON: We're just watching your candidacy. The Reverend Al Sharpton from New York, the next nominee of the Democratic Party. Thank you.
SHARPTON: All right. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Next, a "Fireback" from none other than legendary "Washington Post" editor Ben Bradlee. You're not going to believe what he wrote about one of our guests. We'll tell you. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It's time for "Fireback." A couple of weeks ago, former loud mouth Congressman Bob Dornan was here to debate the legacy of President John F. Kennedy. Here's a short clip of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB DORNAN, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: James, I'm answering the question. CARVILLE: You're not answering it.
DORNAN: James, listen to Ben Bradlee. He's on a show, I'm watching him, and he says, you know, Kennedy told me once that the three things he would like to change in his life would be his father, his wife and his Catholic religion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Ben Bradlee, probably one of the most respected people in Washington and the famed "Washington Post" former editor, has fired back a letter to us about who we call "crazy" Bob Dornan.
"For the record, I never said that on any show (television or radio). Kennedy never said any such thing to me. I have never met Dornan. I would not know him if I fell on him, and I would like the audience to know the facts -- Sincerely, Ben Bradlee."
Mr. Bradlee, don't worry about it. He's not just crazy, he's a liar, like the rest of that whole sickening pack.
CARLSON: I can't get out of my mind the image of Ben Bradlee falling on Bob Dornan. So I'm going to leave it right on that.
CARVILLE: I'll bet you if (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hit him hard enough he'd fall on anybody.
CARLSON: Next up, Armando Gutierrez from Corpus Christi writes: "You don't have to support Sharpton to demand that he be treated with respect." And that, Mr. Gutierrez, is my demand. And I just wish James Carville would see him as a man worthy of respect.
CARVILLE: I wasn't the one who asked him how many times he called Senator Clinton.
CARLSON: Treat him with respect, James. Come on.
CARVILLE: I was going to ask him what he'd do about the economy.
"I can't wait to see Tucker Carlson eat his shoes, as promised, if Hillary sells one million copies of her book. Pass the barbecue sauce, please." (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Leominster, Massachusetts.
CARLSON: Leominster.
CARVILLE: Leominster, there you go.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I will eat my shoes, too.
Terry from Seattle writes: "Tucker, for once I agree with you. A real Democrat would enthusiastically support Al Sharpton and would not go for "Bush Lite" (Kerry, Lieberman and Graham)."
That's an excellent point, Terry. And some people just care about winning more than they care about principle. But a real Democrat would support Al Sharpton, and I hope you change your mind, James.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And, from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
