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CNN Crossfire

Interview With Ann Lewis, Greg Mueller

Aired June 05, 2003 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.

On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.

On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE, she spent eight years in the White House, and wants you to read all about it.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: I had to, I thought, write about the very many high points and good times as well as the more difficult ones.

ANNOUNCER: Would she like to go back as president?

And extra, extra, read all about it. Top newspaper loses top management.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Today on CROSSFIRE.

Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. today we're discussing the book nobody's read yet and very few of us ever will. That, of course, would be "Living history" by senator and would-be presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton. But before our book reports come through. We turn in the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE political alert.

For more than a century, the "New York Times" has been arguably the greatest newspaper in the world, the most comprehensive, best written, the most consistently interesting broad sheet available anywhere. It took less than two years for Howell Raines to turn it into a national joke. As executive editor, Raines, an outspoken liberal, politicized the papers news coverage, ran the news room like a tyrant and mismanaged his talented staff. As his crowning achievement he allowed completely made up news stories onto the front page. Raines, finally, merciful resigned in disgrace this morning. Quote, "He was the nastiest editor I ever worked for," one of the employees said. I called him (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Now you can call him unemployed.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: You can also call him the chief. The chief of the people going after Bill Clinton when he ran the editorial place. He was savage in the way he went after President Clinton. But I have to say, as someone who never liked his style, that he did win seven Pulitzer prizes for the coverage of 9/11. And he also won another for his feature writing. He was a gifted newsman who did have to take responsibility for what happened.

CARLSON: He was actually good at covering huge stories. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) right before September 11. But it was his staff who wrote the stories, not him. He politicized that paper to a degree it devalued it's creditability. He doesn't own that paper. The rest of us, it's a public trust essentially, it's appalling what he did. And I'm glad he's gone.

BEGALA: Well, gone he is.

Reports a bound of the Bush administration pressing intelligence analysts to hype the alleged threat to America from Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction. Gotten so bad that one top Pentagon official, Douglas Fife, had to announce, quote, "I know of nobody who pressured anybody." Douglas Fife, meet Dick Cheney. The "Washington Post" reports that CIA analyst felt pressured to alter their reports from none other than the most powerful many on earth, Vice President Cheney. One CIA official tells the "Post" that Cheney, quote, "Sent signals intended or otherwise that a certain output was desired from the CIA." Perhaps the real threat of WMDs from President Bush and Cheney are whoppers of massive dimensions.

CARLSON: Not a sophisticated analysis. As you know, the CIA and the White House argued about the meaning of intelligence gathered for six months or more before the windup to the war in Iraq. Nobody, nobody argues with the fact that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. If he didn't, why do you think he lost billions of oil revenue under the U.N. sanctions, if he had nothing to hide?

He did nobody argues that.

BEGALA: He didn't use them, and I don't think it was...

CARLSON: Amen.

BEGALA: I don't think it was too nice a guy. But second, there was pressure but on these analysts at the CIA they should never be pressured. This will all be investigate I hope, and this should all come out in public.

CARLSON: If you're interested in why and how the Democratic party has suffered a collective nervous breakdown, consider reading the latest memo from the Democratic leadership council. The centrist think tank once chaired by Bill Clinton. The problem says the DLC is that the Democrats have ignored legitimate concerns about terrorism and national security. In a favor of discredited 1970s style give peace a chance rhetoric, and quote, "A laundry list of old, tired unconvincing promises." In other words, the spirit of Jane Fonda lives on in the Democratic party. The result, quote, "Too many Americans don't much trust us to protect us against terrorists." Americans, are, of course, on to something.

That's the DLC, you can't ignore that. Those are wise words.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I must say, they represent the more moderate wing, I also love the liberals in my part. But what I hate is when Democrats shoot at Democrats. There are enough bad guys out there right now. We should all be attacking the Republicans. That's what a party is for. And I give Bush credit. He's united his party. We need a leader to unite ours.

CARLSON: Paul, but truly, I'm not a very active Democrat, as you know, but even I feel sorry...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But by 40 points Americans say they trust Republicans over Democrats to protect this country. The Democrats have to close that gap or they'll never be elected.

BEGALA: Yes, they do. But also President Bush has to be careful not to politicize...

CARLSON: I agree.

BEGALA: It's a risk for him as well.

Well, home decorating mogul, Martha Stewart today, took out a full-page ad in "USA Today" to defend herself against charges of securities fraud. Stewart, a near billionaire, stands accused by the government of risking her liberty, her reputation and her vast fortune for a deal that netted her all of $45,000. Big whoop, I know an insider who dumped $850,000 of stock just before it collapsed, but the SEC let him go. They never interviewed him. They never interviewed CEO or a single director or single officer of the company. Some investigation, huh? Now, instead of doing time in the big house that man is doing time in the White House. As George W. Bush might say, it's a good thing.

CARLSON: The implication of what you just said is that the president ought to be in prison or could have gone to prison.

BEGALA: He should be out by now on work release.

CARLSON: But truly for insider trading, it's a completely outrageous allegation. Moreover, the idea that simply because Martha Stewart is rich, she didn't engage in insider trading, come on. How many examples can you think of rich people who, for very small sums of money, destroy themselves.

BEGALA: George W. Bush, for 850 grand got cleared without an investigation.

CARLSON: A mass conspiracy of the Justice Department?

Think about what you're saying. Think about what you're alleging.

BEGALA: The Security Exchange Commission cleared him was run by his father who was the president at the time.

CARLSON: So it's an a conspiracy, that's such outrage thing to say.

BEGALA: It's an understated fact. His father was the president. The SEC did not interview anybody and then they cleared him, magicly.

CARLSON: Jim Garrison here on CROSSFIRE.

BEGALA: More revelations about Hillary's book. We'll tell you what they are and discuss her political future when or if she'll run for president. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

It is the most talked about book in America. It's already no. 2 on amazon.com, eclipsed only by the children's powerhouse Harry Potter, a big seller in my house. And yet this book doesn't even hit the bookstores until Monday.

It's called "Living History," and former first lady and now Senator Hillary Clinton writes in that book about the eight years she lived in the White House. Hillary says she discusses the good times and the not-so-good times in her book. And there was a very candid discussion of her reaction when her husband finally fessed up to his cheating. "I wanted to wring Bill's neck," she writes.

But even that level of candor, unprecedented in a first lady, isn't enough for some of Hillary's critic, who no doubt see a vast left-wing conspiracy.

Here to debate all of that, Democratic National Committee member and former White House aide, my friend, Ann Lewis, and Republican strategist Greg Mueller.

Thank you both very much.

CARLSON: Ann, this book hasn't even been released yet. It doesn't come out until Monday, and already key portions of it are being called into question.

I'll give you a couple examples. Here's one: In the book, Mrs. Clinton says that she didn't learn of her husband's affair with Monica Lewinsky until August 15. And yet Peter Baker, one of the best reporters at "The Washington Post, " pretty much established in his book she learned two days earlier, on the 13th.

Moreover, on the 14th, the day before she says she found out, had any idea, "The New York Times" ran a piece with the following headline on the front page -- quote -- "President Weighs Admitting He Had Sexual Contacts."

Now does she not read the papers? How isolated is she that she had no idea after a "New York Times" headline like that?

ANN LEWIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIR. OF COMMUNICATIONS: Well, you said the first thing, which is very important. The book doesn't come out until Monday, the 15th. So all these people who are now talking about -- Monday the 9th, excuse me -- what's in the book, what's it going to say, there's no context. People are going to read this book, and for the first time -- all these books have been written that said what she knew, how she felt, what she thought. You know what? She's going to tell people in her own words.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Are you saying that it's not true that she makes this claim?

LEWIS: No, that is not what I said.

CARLSON: Oh.

LEWIS: What I said is when people read this book for themselves, word for word, and see it in some context, they will decide for themselves, after all these years of people writing what she knew, what she thought, what she felt. You know what? Hillary is going to tell her story in her own words, and people who read the book will decide.

But I've got to tell you, Tucker, it is not surprising to me that what we're hearing are from some of the very same people, some of the very same friends on the right, some of the political opponents of the Clintons

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: I'm giving you a direct answer that these charges are now being made by some of the same people who were complaining about the Clinton for the last eight years. And you know what? They don't want to talk about the issues; they don't want to talk about substance. They want to go back to hurling personal charges. People are going to read the book and they're going to decide.

BEGALA: Well, Greg, in fact, Hillary Clinton, one of the foremost targets, I would say, of conservative critics, others would call it the vast right-wing conspiracy -- and yet, the Gallup poll that came out about who's the most admired woman in America -- the most admired man, of course, our president, George W. Bush. Every year, regularly, the president is. And every year the first lady is the most admired woman. And Laura Bush, let me tell you, she's a wonderful woman someone to greatly admire, someone I admire.

And yet, she was beaten out in this survey -- narrowly -- but beaten out by Hillary Clinton, the most admired woman in America. Read it and weep. That must kill you all on that far right, doesn't it?

GREG MUELLER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, the bigger problem for Hillary, though, Paul is the poll today out of New York, because she doesn't want to be back in the White House as a first lady. She wants to be back in the White House as president. The problem she's got...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Why is she the most admired woman in America, Greg?

MUELLER: I can't answer why that. You have to ask the American people that.

What I can tell you is -- I can tell you her -- the problem she's got is political. The problem is that right now Rudy Giuliani is beating her by 17 points in a poll.

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: She's running a calculated political campaign. But she is beat -- losing to Rudy...

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: Actually, what I came for today, Tucker, was my apology as a member of the vast right-wing conspiracy. I thought maybe Paul would have an apology for me from the first lady, given the fact that she went out and maligned all these people. Now we're finding out what the real -- she knew what the real story was. She went on network television and basically said, You're all members of a vast right-wing conspiracy to take down my husband. Now we're finding out..

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: .... against George Bush Right now. You don't see the first lady on "Good Morning America" talking about a vast left-wing conspiracy.

CARLSON: Here's one of the most revealing quotes of the book and perhaps, like you said a moment ago, it may not really be in the book. We're assuming this actually is in the book.

LEWIS: I was saying the things are in the book..

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: He's what Mrs. Clinton apparently says -- that many Americans were uncomfortable with her because they were uncomfortable with a strong woman, that she was in a position of authority or power, and that our view of gender rules was changing -- quote -- "I was America's Exhibit A. The scrutiny was overwhelming."

Don't you think it's a bit much for Mrs. Clinton to blame people's dislike of her on the fact that she's a woman? Maybe people just didn't like her. Isn't that fair?

LEWIS: Given that, as Paul said, she's the most admired woman in America. I'm not -- oh, going to overreact to it.

CARLSON: Then why is she complaining about it in her book?

LEWIS: But here's what I think.

When I read in those articles -- you know what? Hillary Clinton comes into public life, national public life at a time -- women's roles are changing, and she brings about some unprecedented change. This is the first first lady who's been a working woman. This is the first first lady who eventually...

CARLSON: Did she have a job when she was first lady? (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

LEWIS: No, she had been a working woman...

CARLSON: Oh.

LEWIS: ...until she got to the White House. That was new. That was different. This -- she eventually becomes the first first lady to run and get elected to the United States Senate, which some of her political opponents are still complaining about.

The fact is she comes into public life during a time of change. She speaks openly about issues, and the interests she has in them. She is someone who's been an advocate for children her whole life. She brings that interest in children, working to extend children's health care, for example -- brings that to the White House. It is a different style as first lady. People reacted to it differently.

But by the end -- and I think those numbers speak for themselves. People said, You know what? We like what she stands for and we like the way she works out. We like her.

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: I think to the point of the admired woman -- look, anytime -- anytime a woman -- or anybody, any spouse that went through what Hillary Clinton went through -- and I do feel for that. That is horrible when someone cheats on -- in a marriage and then lies about it endlessly, as she writes in her books. That's a horrible situation whether you're the first family or a family in Peoria, Illinois or a family in the audience. And I think that there's a little bit of sensitivity factor that we all feel for Hillary Clinton.

Having said that, she should not be out maligning people about vast right-wing conspiracies.

(CROSSTALK)

(BELL RINGING)

(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: ...a House -- then House manager, they were called, people that ran the impeachment process for the House of Representatives named Lindsey Graham. He's today a member of the United States Senate, a freshman senator. And this is what he had to say about his colleague, Hillary Rodham Clinton. Lindsey Graham, no liberal. He, in fact, tried his best to impeach the process.

This is what he Lindsey Graham says about his colleague, Senator Clinton: "I think all of her colleagues on both side respect her work ethic and the way she conducts herself. People will attribute motives to her on anything she does. I feel sympathetic to her situation as a junior member with such a high profile status. It's hard because people get jealous. She's handled this better than I think anyone expected."

So say it Lindsey Graham. You have to admit, that's pretty impressive if Hillary's already impressed a right-wing conservative like Lindsey Graham.

MUELLER: I don't disagree.

If you take a look at the political Hillary Clinton, I think she's been very impressive. "The New York Times" had a front page piece the other day where left wing groups, ones like Ann likes and represents....

BEGALA: This is one of your guys. This is Lindsey Graham.

MUELLER: No. No. No. But I think people are impressed with her politically. She's made a move -- she's making a move to the center, this book's a part of that. I do think it was unwise politically. But she's making a move to the center just like her husband did to win.

CARLSON: Greg, I'm going to have to cut you off right there.

We're going to be back in just a minute. We've got to hold that thought, please.

After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer gives us a quick check of the headlines. Then, it's "RapidFire," where the questions and answers move even faster than Hillary Clinton's book moving up and then inevitably down the best-seller list.

We'll also ask members of our audience if they think Hillary Clinton will ever be the president of the United States.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: It's time for "Rapidfire," the fastest question and answer session in television.

We're discussing Senator Hillary Clinton's literary and presidential ambitions, with former White House communications director Ann Lewis and Republican strategist Greg Mueller.

BEGALA: Greg, are you going to read the book or do you already have a closed mind.

MUELLER: I will read the book just to see what she's got to say and look for my apology.

CARLSON: And in "The New York Times," today Mrs. Clinton was asked if her husband to join her on book tour and she started laughing.

Do you find the idea funny?

LEWIS: No, I think these are two people with a very busy schedule. I know they manage to spend time together, so they do dinners together. They do have family time. But when you start thinking about what it takes to coordinate a book tour -- her book tour at the same time he's trying to write a book I think she was smiling at the logistics.

BEGALA: Greg, do you think some of this right wing hatred of Hillary is because maybe these guys where guys who mommas didn't breast-feed them and they liked them as a friend -- is there some psychological problem in these Hillary haters.

MUELLER: Are you speaking from experience, Paul?

BEGALA: I love Hillary. I am not a hater. I like Lindsey Graham, I admire hem.

MUELLER: No. I think people respect her politics and the way she goes about things. I think we have issue difference with her and they are going to keep coming after her. She keeps trying to move to the center, but she is rooted in left politics.

CARLSON: And do you think it's fair to have legitimate policies without her going to ludicrous psychological explanations like the one we just heard?

LEWIS: I think there are legitimate policy differences. For example if Hillary was out there today talking about the child tax credit, saying why are we denying the child tax credit to 12 million children, including we now know children of military families. Republicans passed the tax bill, say every family's going to get a child tax credit. Guess what, these kids were left behind. She's leaving the charge on that. I would be happy to debate that as she is.

BEGALA: $8 million bucks on this book, Greg, are you jealous?

MUELLER: I'm not jealous, but I think Simon and Schuster should be worry, because I don't think they are going to make earn out on it.

CARLSON: And we're almost out of time.

Who's book sells more, Bill's or Hillary's? LEWIS: Well, this year it's going to be Hillary's and next year it's going to be Bill's.

BEGALA: Ann Lewis, Democratic strategist, my former colleague in the Clinton Whit House. Thank you, Greg Mueller, Republican strategist, thank you as well. A fun debate.

It's time now for our audience in the studio to pull out their voting devices and answer these questions guys.

Will Hillary Clinton be president one day? Press 1 for yes, she will be our press one day, and 2, for no, she's won't ever be president.

We'll have the results for the whole audience after the break.

And our viewers have plenty to say about Hillary, her book and, current occupant of the White House. We'll let you know some of those thoughts in "Fireback" in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, it's time for "Fireback."

But first, we have the results from our audience poll.

Will Hillary Clinton someday be president? The results, 8 percent of Republicans in our audience say she will be, 62 of Democrats believe that's possible, 92 percent of Republicans don't believe she will be, and 38 percent of Democrats don't believe she will be.

BEGALA: Interesting, she's never even owned a baseball team, so she must not be qualified.

CARLSON: She has been in the Senate for two years. Come on.

BEGALA: Chris Werte of Charlotte, North Carolina, has are our first e-mail. This one address to Mr. Carlson, but I'll read it. "Tucker, keep trying to demonize Hillary all you want. She will be our first female President. And if she is half as good at the job as her husband was, she will be 10 times better than Dubya."

Take that, Tucker.

CARLSON: I don't now, nor have I ever demonized Mrs. Clinton. I don't hate her, she has an awfully thin resume to be president.

BEGALA: More qualified than Bush, who ran.

CARLSON: Come on. That's ludicrous. She's been a senator for two years. I am buying Hillary's book and I may even read it to watch you eat your shoe. The deal's still on right?"

Mark Wolfe from Columbus, Ohio, if her book does not sell a million copies or does sell more than a million copies, I'll eat my shoes here on CROSSFIRE.

BEGALA: Raw or cooked?

CARLSON: That will never happen.

BEGALA: Raw or cooked? I'll prepare them. This is a great deal. Neal Keys in Childress, Texas, my home state writes, "If Martha Stewart was in the Bush family like Ken Lay is, she would not be getting indicted. She is getting the shaft because they need a pigeon so they will not have to get the big boys." There you go. Free Martha! Free Martha!

CARLSON: I actually don't think the justice system is that deeply corrupted. Maybe I'm naive. John from Houston writes, "Tucker, when will you learn that in a battle of wits with Al Sharpton, you're defenseless."

Al Sharpton was our guest last night, when it comes to his charm I am defenseless. After I watched Al Sharpton, explain his presence in a DEA surveillance tape.

BEGALA: And he took at shot at me last night. Reverend Al, you're free to take a shot at me, come back anytime you like.

CARLSON: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Begala, do you feel senator Clinton's book will hurt Democrats by distracting from their race?

BEGALA: No, if Democrats can't deal with Hillary Clintons book, how are they going to deal with George Bush? You know, if they don't have enough star pow to talk about...

CARLSON: It's easy to say if your not running for office. If you're a Democrat running for office, you'd see it as a pretty selfish act, I think.

BEGALA: No. It's a book. Every first lady -- Nancy Reagan wrote a book, Republicans didn't attack her for it.

CARLSON: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grechen, and I was wondering if the publishing of "Living History" is a calculated move to garner public support for her presidential campaign?

CARLSON: I hope so. I mean, I think and I a lot of conservatives really desperately hope she is going to run in 2008. I think she's a good symbol of her party.

BEGALA: If she was writing this to run for office, she would do what all politicians do when they run, they would write a book about what I would do as president, not what I would do as first lady.

CARLSON: Not about my husband's sex scandal. BEGALA: This is what Nancy Reagan did. This is what Lady Bird Johnson. This is what Betty Ford did. She is writing this as a first lady good bless her. Everybody should by so that we can watch Tucker eat those every expensive Gucci loafers.

From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right I am Tucker Carlson.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 5, 2003 - 16:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.

On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.

On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE, she spent eight years in the White House, and wants you to read all about it.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: I had to, I thought, write about the very many high points and good times as well as the more difficult ones.

ANNOUNCER: Would she like to go back as president?

And extra, extra, read all about it. Top newspaper loses top management.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Today on CROSSFIRE.

Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. today we're discussing the book nobody's read yet and very few of us ever will. That, of course, would be "Living history" by senator and would-be presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton. But before our book reports come through. We turn in the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE political alert.

For more than a century, the "New York Times" has been arguably the greatest newspaper in the world, the most comprehensive, best written, the most consistently interesting broad sheet available anywhere. It took less than two years for Howell Raines to turn it into a national joke. As executive editor, Raines, an outspoken liberal, politicized the papers news coverage, ran the news room like a tyrant and mismanaged his talented staff. As his crowning achievement he allowed completely made up news stories onto the front page. Raines, finally, merciful resigned in disgrace this morning. Quote, "He was the nastiest editor I ever worked for," one of the employees said. I called him (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Now you can call him unemployed.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: You can also call him the chief. The chief of the people going after Bill Clinton when he ran the editorial place. He was savage in the way he went after President Clinton. But I have to say, as someone who never liked his style, that he did win seven Pulitzer prizes for the coverage of 9/11. And he also won another for his feature writing. He was a gifted newsman who did have to take responsibility for what happened.

CARLSON: He was actually good at covering huge stories. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) right before September 11. But it was his staff who wrote the stories, not him. He politicized that paper to a degree it devalued it's creditability. He doesn't own that paper. The rest of us, it's a public trust essentially, it's appalling what he did. And I'm glad he's gone.

BEGALA: Well, gone he is.

Reports a bound of the Bush administration pressing intelligence analysts to hype the alleged threat to America from Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction. Gotten so bad that one top Pentagon official, Douglas Fife, had to announce, quote, "I know of nobody who pressured anybody." Douglas Fife, meet Dick Cheney. The "Washington Post" reports that CIA analyst felt pressured to alter their reports from none other than the most powerful many on earth, Vice President Cheney. One CIA official tells the "Post" that Cheney, quote, "Sent signals intended or otherwise that a certain output was desired from the CIA." Perhaps the real threat of WMDs from President Bush and Cheney are whoppers of massive dimensions.

CARLSON: Not a sophisticated analysis. As you know, the CIA and the White House argued about the meaning of intelligence gathered for six months or more before the windup to the war in Iraq. Nobody, nobody argues with the fact that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. If he didn't, why do you think he lost billions of oil revenue under the U.N. sanctions, if he had nothing to hide?

He did nobody argues that.

BEGALA: He didn't use them, and I don't think it was...

CARLSON: Amen.

BEGALA: I don't think it was too nice a guy. But second, there was pressure but on these analysts at the CIA they should never be pressured. This will all be investigate I hope, and this should all come out in public.

CARLSON: If you're interested in why and how the Democratic party has suffered a collective nervous breakdown, consider reading the latest memo from the Democratic leadership council. The centrist think tank once chaired by Bill Clinton. The problem says the DLC is that the Democrats have ignored legitimate concerns about terrorism and national security. In a favor of discredited 1970s style give peace a chance rhetoric, and quote, "A laundry list of old, tired unconvincing promises." In other words, the spirit of Jane Fonda lives on in the Democratic party. The result, quote, "Too many Americans don't much trust us to protect us against terrorists." Americans, are, of course, on to something.

That's the DLC, you can't ignore that. Those are wise words.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I must say, they represent the more moderate wing, I also love the liberals in my part. But what I hate is when Democrats shoot at Democrats. There are enough bad guys out there right now. We should all be attacking the Republicans. That's what a party is for. And I give Bush credit. He's united his party. We need a leader to unite ours.

CARLSON: Paul, but truly, I'm not a very active Democrat, as you know, but even I feel sorry...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But by 40 points Americans say they trust Republicans over Democrats to protect this country. The Democrats have to close that gap or they'll never be elected.

BEGALA: Yes, they do. But also President Bush has to be careful not to politicize...

CARLSON: I agree.

BEGALA: It's a risk for him as well.

Well, home decorating mogul, Martha Stewart today, took out a full-page ad in "USA Today" to defend herself against charges of securities fraud. Stewart, a near billionaire, stands accused by the government of risking her liberty, her reputation and her vast fortune for a deal that netted her all of $45,000. Big whoop, I know an insider who dumped $850,000 of stock just before it collapsed, but the SEC let him go. They never interviewed him. They never interviewed CEO or a single director or single officer of the company. Some investigation, huh? Now, instead of doing time in the big house that man is doing time in the White House. As George W. Bush might say, it's a good thing.

CARLSON: The implication of what you just said is that the president ought to be in prison or could have gone to prison.

BEGALA: He should be out by now on work release.

CARLSON: But truly for insider trading, it's a completely outrageous allegation. Moreover, the idea that simply because Martha Stewart is rich, she didn't engage in insider trading, come on. How many examples can you think of rich people who, for very small sums of money, destroy themselves.

BEGALA: George W. Bush, for 850 grand got cleared without an investigation.

CARLSON: A mass conspiracy of the Justice Department?

Think about what you're saying. Think about what you're alleging.

BEGALA: The Security Exchange Commission cleared him was run by his father who was the president at the time.

CARLSON: So it's an a conspiracy, that's such outrage thing to say.

BEGALA: It's an understated fact. His father was the president. The SEC did not interview anybody and then they cleared him, magicly.

CARLSON: Jim Garrison here on CROSSFIRE.

BEGALA: More revelations about Hillary's book. We'll tell you what they are and discuss her political future when or if she'll run for president. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

It is the most talked about book in America. It's already no. 2 on amazon.com, eclipsed only by the children's powerhouse Harry Potter, a big seller in my house. And yet this book doesn't even hit the bookstores until Monday.

It's called "Living History," and former first lady and now Senator Hillary Clinton writes in that book about the eight years she lived in the White House. Hillary says she discusses the good times and the not-so-good times in her book. And there was a very candid discussion of her reaction when her husband finally fessed up to his cheating. "I wanted to wring Bill's neck," she writes.

But even that level of candor, unprecedented in a first lady, isn't enough for some of Hillary's critic, who no doubt see a vast left-wing conspiracy.

Here to debate all of that, Democratic National Committee member and former White House aide, my friend, Ann Lewis, and Republican strategist Greg Mueller.

Thank you both very much.

CARLSON: Ann, this book hasn't even been released yet. It doesn't come out until Monday, and already key portions of it are being called into question.

I'll give you a couple examples. Here's one: In the book, Mrs. Clinton says that she didn't learn of her husband's affair with Monica Lewinsky until August 15. And yet Peter Baker, one of the best reporters at "The Washington Post, " pretty much established in his book she learned two days earlier, on the 13th.

Moreover, on the 14th, the day before she says she found out, had any idea, "The New York Times" ran a piece with the following headline on the front page -- quote -- "President Weighs Admitting He Had Sexual Contacts."

Now does she not read the papers? How isolated is she that she had no idea after a "New York Times" headline like that?

ANN LEWIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIR. OF COMMUNICATIONS: Well, you said the first thing, which is very important. The book doesn't come out until Monday, the 15th. So all these people who are now talking about -- Monday the 9th, excuse me -- what's in the book, what's it going to say, there's no context. People are going to read this book, and for the first time -- all these books have been written that said what she knew, how she felt, what she thought. You know what? She's going to tell people in her own words.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Are you saying that it's not true that she makes this claim?

LEWIS: No, that is not what I said.

CARLSON: Oh.

LEWIS: What I said is when people read this book for themselves, word for word, and see it in some context, they will decide for themselves, after all these years of people writing what she knew, what she thought, what she felt. You know what? Hillary is going to tell her story in her own words, and people who read the book will decide.

But I've got to tell you, Tucker, it is not surprising to me that what we're hearing are from some of the very same people, some of the very same friends on the right, some of the political opponents of the Clintons

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: I'm giving you a direct answer that these charges are now being made by some of the same people who were complaining about the Clinton for the last eight years. And you know what? They don't want to talk about the issues; they don't want to talk about substance. They want to go back to hurling personal charges. People are going to read the book and they're going to decide.

BEGALA: Well, Greg, in fact, Hillary Clinton, one of the foremost targets, I would say, of conservative critics, others would call it the vast right-wing conspiracy -- and yet, the Gallup poll that came out about who's the most admired woman in America -- the most admired man, of course, our president, George W. Bush. Every year, regularly, the president is. And every year the first lady is the most admired woman. And Laura Bush, let me tell you, she's a wonderful woman someone to greatly admire, someone I admire.

And yet, she was beaten out in this survey -- narrowly -- but beaten out by Hillary Clinton, the most admired woman in America. Read it and weep. That must kill you all on that far right, doesn't it?

GREG MUELLER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, the bigger problem for Hillary, though, Paul is the poll today out of New York, because she doesn't want to be back in the White House as a first lady. She wants to be back in the White House as president. The problem she's got...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Why is she the most admired woman in America, Greg?

MUELLER: I can't answer why that. You have to ask the American people that.

What I can tell you is -- I can tell you her -- the problem she's got is political. The problem is that right now Rudy Giuliani is beating her by 17 points in a poll.

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: She's running a calculated political campaign. But she is beat -- losing to Rudy...

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: Actually, what I came for today, Tucker, was my apology as a member of the vast right-wing conspiracy. I thought maybe Paul would have an apology for me from the first lady, given the fact that she went out and maligned all these people. Now we're finding out what the real -- she knew what the real story was. She went on network television and basically said, You're all members of a vast right-wing conspiracy to take down my husband. Now we're finding out..

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: .... against George Bush Right now. You don't see the first lady on "Good Morning America" talking about a vast left-wing conspiracy.

CARLSON: Here's one of the most revealing quotes of the book and perhaps, like you said a moment ago, it may not really be in the book. We're assuming this actually is in the book.

LEWIS: I was saying the things are in the book..

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: He's what Mrs. Clinton apparently says -- that many Americans were uncomfortable with her because they were uncomfortable with a strong woman, that she was in a position of authority or power, and that our view of gender rules was changing -- quote -- "I was America's Exhibit A. The scrutiny was overwhelming."

Don't you think it's a bit much for Mrs. Clinton to blame people's dislike of her on the fact that she's a woman? Maybe people just didn't like her. Isn't that fair?

LEWIS: Given that, as Paul said, she's the most admired woman in America. I'm not -- oh, going to overreact to it.

CARLSON: Then why is she complaining about it in her book?

LEWIS: But here's what I think.

When I read in those articles -- you know what? Hillary Clinton comes into public life, national public life at a time -- women's roles are changing, and she brings about some unprecedented change. This is the first first lady who's been a working woman. This is the first first lady who eventually...

CARLSON: Did she have a job when she was first lady? (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

LEWIS: No, she had been a working woman...

CARLSON: Oh.

LEWIS: ...until she got to the White House. That was new. That was different. This -- she eventually becomes the first first lady to run and get elected to the United States Senate, which some of her political opponents are still complaining about.

The fact is she comes into public life during a time of change. She speaks openly about issues, and the interests she has in them. She is someone who's been an advocate for children her whole life. She brings that interest in children, working to extend children's health care, for example -- brings that to the White House. It is a different style as first lady. People reacted to it differently.

But by the end -- and I think those numbers speak for themselves. People said, You know what? We like what she stands for and we like the way she works out. We like her.

(CROSSTALK)

MUELLER: I think to the point of the admired woman -- look, anytime -- anytime a woman -- or anybody, any spouse that went through what Hillary Clinton went through -- and I do feel for that. That is horrible when someone cheats on -- in a marriage and then lies about it endlessly, as she writes in her books. That's a horrible situation whether you're the first family or a family in Peoria, Illinois or a family in the audience. And I think that there's a little bit of sensitivity factor that we all feel for Hillary Clinton.

Having said that, she should not be out maligning people about vast right-wing conspiracies.

(CROSSTALK)

(BELL RINGING)

(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: ...a House -- then House manager, they were called, people that ran the impeachment process for the House of Representatives named Lindsey Graham. He's today a member of the United States Senate, a freshman senator. And this is what he had to say about his colleague, Hillary Rodham Clinton. Lindsey Graham, no liberal. He, in fact, tried his best to impeach the process.

This is what he Lindsey Graham says about his colleague, Senator Clinton: "I think all of her colleagues on both side respect her work ethic and the way she conducts herself. People will attribute motives to her on anything she does. I feel sympathetic to her situation as a junior member with such a high profile status. It's hard because people get jealous. She's handled this better than I think anyone expected."

So say it Lindsey Graham. You have to admit, that's pretty impressive if Hillary's already impressed a right-wing conservative like Lindsey Graham.

MUELLER: I don't disagree.

If you take a look at the political Hillary Clinton, I think she's been very impressive. "The New York Times" had a front page piece the other day where left wing groups, ones like Ann likes and represents....

BEGALA: This is one of your guys. This is Lindsey Graham.

MUELLER: No. No. No. But I think people are impressed with her politically. She's made a move -- she's making a move to the center, this book's a part of that. I do think it was unwise politically. But she's making a move to the center just like her husband did to win.

CARLSON: Greg, I'm going to have to cut you off right there.

We're going to be back in just a minute. We've got to hold that thought, please.

After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer gives us a quick check of the headlines. Then, it's "RapidFire," where the questions and answers move even faster than Hillary Clinton's book moving up and then inevitably down the best-seller list.

We'll also ask members of our audience if they think Hillary Clinton will ever be the president of the United States.

We'll be right back.

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CARLSON: It's time for "Rapidfire," the fastest question and answer session in television.

We're discussing Senator Hillary Clinton's literary and presidential ambitions, with former White House communications director Ann Lewis and Republican strategist Greg Mueller.

BEGALA: Greg, are you going to read the book or do you already have a closed mind.

MUELLER: I will read the book just to see what she's got to say and look for my apology.

CARLSON: And in "The New York Times," today Mrs. Clinton was asked if her husband to join her on book tour and she started laughing.

Do you find the idea funny?

LEWIS: No, I think these are two people with a very busy schedule. I know they manage to spend time together, so they do dinners together. They do have family time. But when you start thinking about what it takes to coordinate a book tour -- her book tour at the same time he's trying to write a book I think she was smiling at the logistics.

BEGALA: Greg, do you think some of this right wing hatred of Hillary is because maybe these guys where guys who mommas didn't breast-feed them and they liked them as a friend -- is there some psychological problem in these Hillary haters.

MUELLER: Are you speaking from experience, Paul?

BEGALA: I love Hillary. I am not a hater. I like Lindsey Graham, I admire hem.

MUELLER: No. I think people respect her politics and the way she goes about things. I think we have issue difference with her and they are going to keep coming after her. She keeps trying to move to the center, but she is rooted in left politics.

CARLSON: And do you think it's fair to have legitimate policies without her going to ludicrous psychological explanations like the one we just heard?

LEWIS: I think there are legitimate policy differences. For example if Hillary was out there today talking about the child tax credit, saying why are we denying the child tax credit to 12 million children, including we now know children of military families. Republicans passed the tax bill, say every family's going to get a child tax credit. Guess what, these kids were left behind. She's leaving the charge on that. I would be happy to debate that as she is.

BEGALA: $8 million bucks on this book, Greg, are you jealous?

MUELLER: I'm not jealous, but I think Simon and Schuster should be worry, because I don't think they are going to make earn out on it.

CARLSON: And we're almost out of time.

Who's book sells more, Bill's or Hillary's? LEWIS: Well, this year it's going to be Hillary's and next year it's going to be Bill's.

BEGALA: Ann Lewis, Democratic strategist, my former colleague in the Clinton Whit House. Thank you, Greg Mueller, Republican strategist, thank you as well. A fun debate.

It's time now for our audience in the studio to pull out their voting devices and answer these questions guys.

Will Hillary Clinton be president one day? Press 1 for yes, she will be our press one day, and 2, for no, she's won't ever be president.

We'll have the results for the whole audience after the break.

And our viewers have plenty to say about Hillary, her book and, current occupant of the White House. We'll let you know some of those thoughts in "Fireback" in just a minute.

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CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, it's time for "Fireback."

But first, we have the results from our audience poll.

Will Hillary Clinton someday be president? The results, 8 percent of Republicans in our audience say she will be, 62 of Democrats believe that's possible, 92 percent of Republicans don't believe she will be, and 38 percent of Democrats don't believe she will be.

BEGALA: Interesting, she's never even owned a baseball team, so she must not be qualified.

CARLSON: She has been in the Senate for two years. Come on.

BEGALA: Chris Werte of Charlotte, North Carolina, has are our first e-mail. This one address to Mr. Carlson, but I'll read it. "Tucker, keep trying to demonize Hillary all you want. She will be our first female President. And if she is half as good at the job as her husband was, she will be 10 times better than Dubya."

Take that, Tucker.

CARLSON: I don't now, nor have I ever demonized Mrs. Clinton. I don't hate her, she has an awfully thin resume to be president.

BEGALA: More qualified than Bush, who ran.

CARLSON: Come on. That's ludicrous. She's been a senator for two years. I am buying Hillary's book and I may even read it to watch you eat your shoe. The deal's still on right?"

Mark Wolfe from Columbus, Ohio, if her book does not sell a million copies or does sell more than a million copies, I'll eat my shoes here on CROSSFIRE.

BEGALA: Raw or cooked?

CARLSON: That will never happen.

BEGALA: Raw or cooked? I'll prepare them. This is a great deal. Neal Keys in Childress, Texas, my home state writes, "If Martha Stewart was in the Bush family like Ken Lay is, she would not be getting indicted. She is getting the shaft because they need a pigeon so they will not have to get the big boys." There you go. Free Martha! Free Martha!

CARLSON: I actually don't think the justice system is that deeply corrupted. Maybe I'm naive. John from Houston writes, "Tucker, when will you learn that in a battle of wits with Al Sharpton, you're defenseless."

Al Sharpton was our guest last night, when it comes to his charm I am defenseless. After I watched Al Sharpton, explain his presence in a DEA surveillance tape.

BEGALA: And he took at shot at me last night. Reverend Al, you're free to take a shot at me, come back anytime you like.

CARLSON: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Begala, do you feel senator Clinton's book will hurt Democrats by distracting from their race?

BEGALA: No, if Democrats can't deal with Hillary Clintons book, how are they going to deal with George Bush? You know, if they don't have enough star pow to talk about...

CARLSON: It's easy to say if your not running for office. If you're a Democrat running for office, you'd see it as a pretty selfish act, I think.

BEGALA: No. It's a book. Every first lady -- Nancy Reagan wrote a book, Republicans didn't attack her for it.

CARLSON: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grechen, and I was wondering if the publishing of "Living History" is a calculated move to garner public support for her presidential campaign?

CARLSON: I hope so. I mean, I think and I a lot of conservatives really desperately hope she is going to run in 2008. I think she's a good symbol of her party.

BEGALA: If she was writing this to run for office, she would do what all politicians do when they run, they would write a book about what I would do as president, not what I would do as first lady.

CARLSON: Not about my husband's sex scandal. BEGALA: This is what Nancy Reagan did. This is what Lady Bird Johnson. This is what Betty Ford did. She is writing this as a first lady good bless her. Everybody should by so that we can watch Tucker eat those every expensive Gucci loafers.

From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: From the right I am Tucker Carlson.

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