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CNN Crossfire
Networks Battle for First Interview of Jessica Lynch
Aired June 16, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul BEGALA. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then in the right place at the right time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a coalition Blackhawk helicopter on the ground and PFC Lynch on a stretcher being carried to safety.
ANNOUNCER: Now some broadcast networks may give almost anything to interview her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not many news outlets can offer the kind of corporate temptations here that CBS is doing.
ANNOUNCER: Who should profit from Private Jessica Lynch's story?
Plus, a Bush administration counterterrorism official is defecting to the Democrats. Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Private Jessica Lynch may be the most famous participant in the Iraq war. Her capture and rescue in Iraq have come to symbolize the qualities the United States military holds in highest regard: bravery, loyalty, endurance and daring. The question now, should so-called news organizations pay her to tell her story?
We'll debate that. But first some stories of our own. The CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
The Supreme Court ends its term in just a few weeks, and there are indications that at least one of the justices could retire. With that in mind, Democratic senators Chuck Schumer and Pat Leahy have sent letters to the White House warning President Bush not to nominate conservatives to the court.
As Leahy put it, "Polarizing nominees are not welcome." In other words, don't send us someone who does not consider abortion a religious sacrament. "Contention is avoidable," Leahy wrote, "and consensus should be our goal."
Consensus? Like the 1986 Senate vote that confirmed Justice Scalia 98 to nothing? Of course that's not the kind of consensus Leahy is talking about. He's talking about the kind of consensus where you do exactly as I say. Good luck.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Actually, this president has forgotten that the Constitution requires him to turn to the Senate for advice and consent. His idea is my way or the highway. He has sent up some very fine judges, but some very right wing judges, and I think this is good advice from the Senate.
And some names, Arlen Specter, Republican senator. I would say Orrin Hatch, a very, very conservative senator, would be confirmed very easily if the president would advise with the Senate.
CARLSON: I doubt that Orrin Hatch should (ph) be confirmed. That's an interesting suggestion. He was not on the list, I don't think, that Chuck Schumer sent up there, because the list was all about the one issue the Democratic Party is obsessed with, abortion.
It's all about that. They're afraid of pro-life judges. You know that's true.
BEGALA: They confirmed 100 pro-life judges already.
CARLSON: Not anymore.
BEGALA: Yes, they have. This year -- or these last two years.
Well, Rand Beers was a counterterrorism expert. He served presidents Reagan, Bush, Sr., Clinton and Bush, Jr. He recently resigned his national security job, though, and began working to defeat President Bush.
Why? "The administration is not matching its deeds to its words on the war on terrorism," he tells today's "Washington Post." "They're making us less secure, not more secure."
Beers goes on to say the administration is "underestimating the enemy," ignoring the resurgence of al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and that here at home the "antiterrorism effort is one of talk, not action."
Bush defenders point out Mr. Bush has done more than just talk. He landed on an aircraft carrier. So that's some kind of action, I guess, Tucker. But...
CARLSON: It's interesting. Rand Beers, who now works for Senator Kerry, who is running for president, is a registered Democrat and probably happier working for a Democrat. But his frustrations, if you read the piece, were ones that I think a lot of people share on a bipartisan level. He was complaining about the very federal bureaucrats that you are forever defending.
BEGALA: No he wasn't.
CARLSON: Yes he was.
BEGALA: He was saying it about George W. Bush.
CARLSON: No, no, no. Read the piece. He was saying that the bureaucratic slowness, the snail's pace of the bureaucracy was driving him insane and it was making it impossible to get anything done. This is a complaint that people who work in the White House, who are still working for President Bush, have to.
BEGALA: It's simply untrue. He's working to defeat President Bush because he believes Bush is all talk and no action on terrorism, and I think that's a frightening message.
CARLSON: The Democratic Party's collective nervous breakdown continues. Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, an unrepentant leftist, will unveil the first of the television ads of campaign 2004 this week in Iowa. Dean is spending more than 10 percent of his entire Iowa budget on the spots, a sign that Dean believes he can generate the momentum necessary to win his party's nomination.
And he could be right. Sober Democrats shiver at the thought. The Democratic Leadership Council describes Dean's politics as, "defined principally by weakness abroad and elitist interest group liberalism here at home." That's a perfect description and apparently precisely what many Democratic primary voters are looking for in a candidate. I can't wait to find out.
BEGALA: This is a very risky tactic. We are seven months from the Iowa caucuses. Most candidates are putting out position papers, putting out their issues. He's beginning with advertising seven months before the caucuses. I'm very doubtful that that's going to do him long-term good.
CARLSON: Particularly in Iowa, where it's not clear how much television advertising helps you in the first place. But it says something about Dean's support. I think he probably has the most committed, the most active, the most aggressive supporters of any candidate, apart, of course, from Al Sharpton. And it tells you something that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) candidates, like Dean and Sharpton, are the ones getting the most grassroots support. So it's something (ph) about the Democratic Party, I think.
BEGALA: They get grassroots support, but they don't get mainstream support. I don't know. Howard Dean should come on this show and debate you as to whether he's mainstream or far left, because I think you'd be surprised.
Well, as part of his compassionate conservative routine, President Bush regularly praises AmeriCorps, which was, of course, President Clinton's domestic PeaceCorps initiative. Mr. Bush has promised in the past to increase it by 50 percent, from 50,000 volunteers to 75,000. But today, the government announced Mr. Bush won't actually be increasing AmeriCorps by 50 percent. In fact, he'll be decreasing it by 50 percent.
Alan Khazei, who heads the highly praised (UNINTELLIGIBLE) service program, said "Basically, national service in America has been wiped out or reduced to a shell." Those who actually believed Mr. Bush's promise to expand national service are left to ponder the words of Mr. Bush's hero, Otter from "Animal House," who said, "You screwed up, you trusted me."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'd have to say -- I would truly be interested to know how many people know what AmeriCorps does. I did a long magazine story on AmeriCorps a number of years ago and I couldn't figure it out. I wasn't against it, but it seemed basically like a program that accomplished virtually nothing. And so...
BEGALA: That's different from Mr. Bush making a promise he doesn't keep. He gives his word; he should keep his word. That's all I say.
CARLSON: Look, Paul, I'm not going to debate the syntax of the president, but I will say that I think it's probably -- unless you can define for me what...
BEGALA: What increase means?
CARLSON: ... AmeriCorps does -- now truly.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You attacked Clinton because he didn't know what "is" is. This guy says increase by 50, he cuts it by 50.
CARLSON: Good for him.
Next, the sordid, messy network bidding war to turn Private Jessica Lynch's story into prime-time television. You're not going to believe what she's being bribed to do for a TV interview. We'll fill in the details and debate whether it's time to throw all journalism ethics out the window and pay Private Lynch for an interview next. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Private Jessica Lynch risked her life for our country and she nearly paid the ultimate price. Ambushed, wounded and captured in the early days of the Iraq war, she was helled as a POW by Saddam Hussein's forces until she was rescued by U.S. Special Forces.
Now she continues her recovery at the Walter Reed Medical Center here in Washington. Private Lynch is under siege again. But this time by the big TV networks.
Today's "New York Times" reveals the lengths to which CBS, ABC and NBC are willing to go to land the first interview with Private Lynch. In particular, the CBS proposal, which dangles the possibility of a TV movie deal and a guest spot on MTV, along with a book deal from fellow Viacom corporation Simon & Schuster, which you should know is my publisher as well.
In the interest of full disclosure, you should also know that CNN has offered pizza and beer to Private Lynch if she'll come on CROSSFIRE. But then we learned that she's only 20 years old. So I guess, Jessica, pizza and Yoo-Hoo for you.
To debate how much the networks should pay or whether they should at all pay for Jessica Lynch's story, we are joined by a distinguished pair of guests. Former CNN Washington bureau chief, Frank Sesno, now a professor of public policy at George Mason University, and Tammy Haddad, veteran TV producer and the former executive producer of CNN's very own "LARRY KING LIVE."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Tammy, you are not only the smartest television producer I know, but you're also the most honest. So I know you'll answer this question honestly.
CBS is offering to pay Jessica Lynch through another company. It's like saying, I can't pay you, but my brother will. But it's the same thing, isn't it?
TAMMY HADDAD, VETERAN TV PRODUCER: Tucker, that's a total outrage. That is not in there at all. In fact, later in the letter -- by the way, I got this from CBS News. This is what's not in "The New York Times."
CBS News -- this is a quote from the letter. "CBS News maintains editorial independence from the entertainment division" -- Frank. "We never tie interview requests to entertainment projects. And we want to make sure a CBS news proposal is being considered as a single entity."
There's no way -- and let me tell you something, as someone who's been on the front lines of these kinds of bookings for years. People say all the time, listen, we can help you here, we can help you there. And more importantly, these people in these situations who don't know how to handle this unwielding media machine but feel like they should get their share, they ask people like me, can you help me, can you advise me, can you give me some suggestions?
CARLSON: But in the original pitch letter, it's not like Lynch came back and said, I'm confused. Can you manage my affairs? They said, look, you do the interview with us and maybe we can get you money for a book deal.
HADDAD: No, no, no. It did not say that at all. It said, if you're interested in these other things, you should consider them. And I think there's nothing wrong with that.
I think that's just like CNN or any other network saying, when you come on this show, you'll be seen on CNN, you'll be on CNN international and the other kinds of things. There's nothing wrong with media organizations pointing out other things. BEGALA: Well, Frank, why not be even more fundamental? Just be honest. The reason the networks are pursuing Private Lynch is because her story is worth money.
These are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) corporations these networks, and they want to make money off of her pain and sacrifice. Why shouldn't she make money off of her pain and sacrifice?
(APPLAUSE)
FRANK SESNO, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: I don't have any problem with her making money off of her pain and sacrifice, but then be honest about it and don't pass it off as news. And make sure that the people who are watching television and watching the media -- let me finish -- and who are watching television and watching the media know that there was a dollar value to this.
Excuse me, do we have enough credibility problems in the world of -- wait a minute -- in the world of journalism and media now? Should we employ Jayson Blair, too?
BEGALA: Wait a minute. We pay -- NBC News pays Norman Schwarzkopf and Barry McCaffrey. We pay Wes Clark. So we can pay four-star generals but not privates, is that the deal?
SESNO: No. They are identified as consultants to the network. They are not identified as news sources. When you're leaking from the Clinton administration...
BEGALA: To you.
SESNO: Thank you. If you had been on a payroll, and I had been an honest journalist wanting to tell the audience exactly what was going on, I should have been telling you I was paying you for your information.
CARLSON: Wait a minute. Tammy, isn't -- there's another -- there's a tonal problem here. Here you have CBS News, which cannot shut up about the legacy of Edward R. Murrow, part-time (UNINTELLIGIBLE) pitchman, I think, but the legacy of hard news at CBS winding up here.
This is from the Jim Rutenberg story in "The Times" this morning. Jane Clayson, a CBS News morning correspondent, wrote a letter to Private Lynch in May reminding her that they she share the astrological sign of Taurus. "I hope you have a great day," said Ms. Clayson, "referring to Private Lynch's..."
Now, in addition to making you want to vomit, isn't that a sign of how low the news division there has sunk?
HADDAD: No. I think that's an outrageous think to say. And I'd like to see letters from CNN and other networks, too.
In fact, I've got to tell you, on the Jessica Lynch story, I'm sure that CBS is not the only network that offered to hook them up with other people. But here's my point. Not all of these people have access to Bob Barnett (ph), who we all know was Hillary Clinton's lawyer.
Wait a minute. Hillary Clinton has the best agent, the best lawyer, the best adviser money can buy. So she had this huge media group. Didn't you all see it on all the networks?
SESNO: Tammy, Jessica Lynch...
HADDAD: These are people who live in West Virginia, they do not know media people. And if someone wants to help them out, why not? Go ahead.
SESNO: Jessica Lynch has access to anybody she wants.
HADDAD: But she's in a hospital, Frank. Do you want her parents...
SESNO: Wait a minute -- may I finish? Thank you. Jessica Lynch has access to anybody she wants. She's got an incredible story to tell. She can sell the book, she can sell the movie, she can sell the memoirs, she can sell anything. But if she's selling...
BEGALA: Why is it OK to sell the book, the movie, the memoirs, but not the interview? It makes no sense, Frank.
(CROSSTALK)
SESNO: We do not -- let me tell you what happens with checkbook journalism. What happens with checkbook journalism is something that I saw on the streets of Belfast years ago, where some camera crew missed a story and they went out and they paid the kids to throw stones at the troops. And what happens when you sit home and you watch it?
BEGALA: Nobody's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this was a setup. This is a woman heroically serving her country and captured by the enemy.
SESNO: And, Paul, she sits down in front of the camera for a news interview. What's her ulterior motive? Does she embellish the story as she goes? Does she have any accountability?
(CROSSTALK)
HADDAD: That is media elitism. I'm sorry, I think that's media elitism. I do, because why shouldn't she have an opportunity?
CARLSON: Wait, let me ask this. I understand that she's poor and oppressed and from West Virginia. But leaving that completely aside, Frank raises a really question, and that is, can you trust the credibility of someone who is being paid?
You do not -- you are not allowed to pay an eyewitness to a crime in court. If he's paid, his testimony is, of course, suspect.
SESNO: And you didn't pay your guests on "LARRY KING LIVE," did you?
HADDAD: I would never pay guests...
SESNO: All right. You wouldn't. And why wouldn't you pay a guest on "LARRY KING LIVE"?
HADDAD: Because I want someone to tell their story because they want to tell it. But that's not the case here. I think it's an unfair (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: Because why buy a cow when you get free milk? They ought to be paying for it. This is a valuable commodity. That's what the networks want.
SESNO: Are you paying us?
BEGALA: No, but we should.
SESNO: Why?
BEGALA: Because we don't have to.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: This is a different case. It's not entertainment. It's not a service. The point is to get to the truth. And doesn't money pollute it?
HADDAD: Wait, hold on a second. Here's a problem, that this is the realistic problem. OK?
The problem is NBC is right now preparing a movie, TV movie of her life. It's unauthorized. She'll make no money. She'll have no role.
Do you consider that fair? Now these things get turned around fast. That's why these things are getting hooked up much more quickly.
CARLSON: We'll take a quick commercial break. When we come back, we're going to keep our guests. We're going to take a quick break.
Wolf Blitzer will have the latest headlines, including new efforts to rescue the road map for peace in the Middle East. Then on "RapidFire", questions and answers that come faster than networks' lucrative offers to Private Jessica Lynch.
And there's more news on the Hillary book front. You'll find out if I'm any closer to eating my shoes. Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for "RapidFire", the quickest question-and-answer session on television. We're talking about the broadcast networks' bidding war to interview Private Jessica Lynch.
According to "The New York Times," NBC's Katie Couric sent her a bundle of patriotic books; ABC's Diane Sawyer sent a locket with a photograph of Private Lynch's home in West Virginia. And CBS dangled the possibilities of movie, television and book deals, including a guest host slot on MTV.
We're discussing the question of ethics of all this with the legendary Tammy Haddad, former executive producer of CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE," and equally legendary, former CNN Washington bureau chief, Frank Sesno, now with the School of Public Policy at George Mason University.
BEGALA: Frank, his holiness, John Paul II, was paid $8.5 million for his book. Does that make you doubt his credibility?
SESNO: No, he was paid for a book and he wrote a good book. Jessica Lynch does an interview, it should not be for a check.
CARLSON: Tammy, doesn't the practice of paying -- doesn't it make the public cynical?
HADDAD: Oh, yes. That's what makes the public cynical, as opposed to media elite who think that Jessica Lynch shouldn't have access to these kinds of people at Simon & Schuster and these other places. It's your publisher.
BEGALA: It is.
HADDAD: They can't call up and say, hey, get me a book. They need these people. It's just an avenue.
I think you guys are taking this completely the wrong way. And I think it's outrageous because CBS News does not sell interviews.
SESNO: Tammy, wait. Just look at the polls. I mean, take a breath and look at the polls and the standing of journalism and television and media in America. Maybe we -- holier than thou we should think about how we look at how we behave and the integrity we bring to the table.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But, Frank, isn't the issue here corporate greed? Doesn't -- the news networks, don't they just want their raw material for free? Why shouldn't they have to pay for their raw material?
SESNO: We don't pay for sources, we don't pay for news. You start, you don't stop.
And how do people know? Look, across the bottom of the screen with the crawl and the weather and the sports, put the price tag of the source and the ulterior motive of the news.
CARLSON: Tammy, quickly, does it make you uncomfortable when Fox News at 10:00 comes off after "The Bachelor" and features an interview with one of the bachelorettes? Isn't that creepy? Isn't that commerce masquerading as news?
HADDAD: That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. How can you just pull stops out? Every single network does that.
CARLSON: Well, it was a good example. Tammy Haddad, Frank Sesno, thank you both very much.
BEGALA: A terrific debate.
Our viewers should know, of course, that neither Frank nor Tammy got paid. CNN has a policy of never paying any of its guests. But they do pay their hosts a whole lot of money, though. I'm happy about that.
Now the audience members, also here on their own free time, get a chance to vote. Tell us, should Jessica Lynch profit from her television interviews? Pull out your old voting devices in the studio audience.
Press one for yes, 20-year-old Jessica Lynch has just as much a right to profit from her interview as the media conglomerates do. Or two, no, journalistic ethics thinks that that's wrong, she should do the interview for free. I'll have the results for you after the break with our Fireback segment.
Plus, a dramatic development in the Hillary Clinton book story. One that might just turn Tucker Carlson's stomach, literally. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback".
But first, the results of our audience poll in which we asked, should CBS pay Jessica Lynch and pretend it's news? Yes, say 46 percent of our audience. No, we're remaining pure said the other 54 percent.
BEGALA: Pretty interesting. The question is should they pay those reporters who interview her, too? I don't want to get into that because they might not want to pay us.
OK. So "Fireback" No. 1 is from Pete Tenney, who writes us from White Sulphur Springs, Montana. Pete writes -- on the topic of Jessica Lynch -- "I don't care where Jessica Lynch ends up or how much money she makes off of whom. More power to her."
Good for you, Pete. I'm with you.
CARLSON: All right. Next up is Loretta Abbedulo from Reedsburg, Wisconsin. "Be careful that the Republicans don't suddenly find WMD just before the election and make us look foolish. They could be planted at any time."
Now, there is your classic Democratic primary voter.
BEGALA: Actually, that theory...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That theory I first heard from radio talk show host, Don Imus, who has been saying it a while. They'll find the WMD when the shipment arrives by FedEx from the CIA headquarters.
CARLSON: He's a Howard Dean voter, I can tell you.
BEGALA: Roy Bolduc of Gainesville, Florida writes "Tucker, I've searched through my collection of over 400 cookbooks to find a recipe for cooking shoes. No luck. Maybe you can watch Charlie Chaplin in the 'Gold Rush.' He does cook and eat his shoes in this movie. Watch it carefully and see if you can pick up any hints."
He's writing, of course, about Tucker's pledge to eat his shoes if Hillary Clinton sells a million books.
CARLSON: My question to you, Paul, is do you trust a man who has, "over 400 cookbooks?"
BEGALA: Well, the update for our audience, the answer is yes. But the update for our audience, so far, as of today, Hillary Clinton has sold 600,000 books. Four hundred thousand more, ladies and gentlemen. Everybody in the audience buy it.
It's called "Living History." Let's watch Tucker eat his shoes.
CARLSON: There are not 400,000 more gullible people in this nation.
BEGALA: Yes, sir? What's your question or comment? What's your name and hometown?
BRANDON: Hi. I'm, Brandon (ph) from Oceanside, New York. I just want to know, for a person like Jessica Lynch, that has served our nation so well, any woman or any person that has gone through what Jessica Lynch has gone through, why doesn't she deserve to get whatever she can for her service to our nation?
CARLSON: But that's not the point. It's not whether she deserves it. Sure, I have no problem with that at all.
The question is, should a news organization, ostensibly dedicating to gathering accurate, unbiased news, untainted by commercial consideration, should they be paying her? And the answer, of course, is no. The publisher wants to pay her, great; CBS, no.
BEGALA: Well so the theory is -- of course she should get paid, because the theory is she'll write a book for millions of dollars and she'll tell the truth there, even though she's paid millions. But we won't pay her at the news networks for her interview. It's nonsense.
CARLSON: No, but the book shouldn't be used to briber her to come on their news network to the exclusion of other networks, in my opinion. BEGALA: What should it be used for?
CARLSON: I don't know, Paul. That's a deeper question than we can tackle today.
BEGALA: Well, god bless Private Lynch. From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 16, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul BEGALA. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then in the right place at the right time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a coalition Blackhawk helicopter on the ground and PFC Lynch on a stretcher being carried to safety.
ANNOUNCER: Now some broadcast networks may give almost anything to interview her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not many news outlets can offer the kind of corporate temptations here that CBS is doing.
ANNOUNCER: Who should profit from Private Jessica Lynch's story?
Plus, a Bush administration counterterrorism official is defecting to the Democrats. Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Private Jessica Lynch may be the most famous participant in the Iraq war. Her capture and rescue in Iraq have come to symbolize the qualities the United States military holds in highest regard: bravery, loyalty, endurance and daring. The question now, should so-called news organizations pay her to tell her story?
We'll debate that. But first some stories of our own. The CROSSFIRE Political Alert.
The Supreme Court ends its term in just a few weeks, and there are indications that at least one of the justices could retire. With that in mind, Democratic senators Chuck Schumer and Pat Leahy have sent letters to the White House warning President Bush not to nominate conservatives to the court.
As Leahy put it, "Polarizing nominees are not welcome." In other words, don't send us someone who does not consider abortion a religious sacrament. "Contention is avoidable," Leahy wrote, "and consensus should be our goal."
Consensus? Like the 1986 Senate vote that confirmed Justice Scalia 98 to nothing? Of course that's not the kind of consensus Leahy is talking about. He's talking about the kind of consensus where you do exactly as I say. Good luck.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Actually, this president has forgotten that the Constitution requires him to turn to the Senate for advice and consent. His idea is my way or the highway. He has sent up some very fine judges, but some very right wing judges, and I think this is good advice from the Senate.
And some names, Arlen Specter, Republican senator. I would say Orrin Hatch, a very, very conservative senator, would be confirmed very easily if the president would advise with the Senate.
CARLSON: I doubt that Orrin Hatch should (ph) be confirmed. That's an interesting suggestion. He was not on the list, I don't think, that Chuck Schumer sent up there, because the list was all about the one issue the Democratic Party is obsessed with, abortion.
It's all about that. They're afraid of pro-life judges. You know that's true.
BEGALA: They confirmed 100 pro-life judges already.
CARLSON: Not anymore.
BEGALA: Yes, they have. This year -- or these last two years.
Well, Rand Beers was a counterterrorism expert. He served presidents Reagan, Bush, Sr., Clinton and Bush, Jr. He recently resigned his national security job, though, and began working to defeat President Bush.
Why? "The administration is not matching its deeds to its words on the war on terrorism," he tells today's "Washington Post." "They're making us less secure, not more secure."
Beers goes on to say the administration is "underestimating the enemy," ignoring the resurgence of al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and that here at home the "antiterrorism effort is one of talk, not action."
Bush defenders point out Mr. Bush has done more than just talk. He landed on an aircraft carrier. So that's some kind of action, I guess, Tucker. But...
CARLSON: It's interesting. Rand Beers, who now works for Senator Kerry, who is running for president, is a registered Democrat and probably happier working for a Democrat. But his frustrations, if you read the piece, were ones that I think a lot of people share on a bipartisan level. He was complaining about the very federal bureaucrats that you are forever defending.
BEGALA: No he wasn't.
CARLSON: Yes he was.
BEGALA: He was saying it about George W. Bush.
CARLSON: No, no, no. Read the piece. He was saying that the bureaucratic slowness, the snail's pace of the bureaucracy was driving him insane and it was making it impossible to get anything done. This is a complaint that people who work in the White House, who are still working for President Bush, have to.
BEGALA: It's simply untrue. He's working to defeat President Bush because he believes Bush is all talk and no action on terrorism, and I think that's a frightening message.
CARLSON: The Democratic Party's collective nervous breakdown continues. Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, an unrepentant leftist, will unveil the first of the television ads of campaign 2004 this week in Iowa. Dean is spending more than 10 percent of his entire Iowa budget on the spots, a sign that Dean believes he can generate the momentum necessary to win his party's nomination.
And he could be right. Sober Democrats shiver at the thought. The Democratic Leadership Council describes Dean's politics as, "defined principally by weakness abroad and elitist interest group liberalism here at home." That's a perfect description and apparently precisely what many Democratic primary voters are looking for in a candidate. I can't wait to find out.
BEGALA: This is a very risky tactic. We are seven months from the Iowa caucuses. Most candidates are putting out position papers, putting out their issues. He's beginning with advertising seven months before the caucuses. I'm very doubtful that that's going to do him long-term good.
CARLSON: Particularly in Iowa, where it's not clear how much television advertising helps you in the first place. But it says something about Dean's support. I think he probably has the most committed, the most active, the most aggressive supporters of any candidate, apart, of course, from Al Sharpton. And it tells you something that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) candidates, like Dean and Sharpton, are the ones getting the most grassroots support. So it's something (ph) about the Democratic Party, I think.
BEGALA: They get grassroots support, but they don't get mainstream support. I don't know. Howard Dean should come on this show and debate you as to whether he's mainstream or far left, because I think you'd be surprised.
Well, as part of his compassionate conservative routine, President Bush regularly praises AmeriCorps, which was, of course, President Clinton's domestic PeaceCorps initiative. Mr. Bush has promised in the past to increase it by 50 percent, from 50,000 volunteers to 75,000. But today, the government announced Mr. Bush won't actually be increasing AmeriCorps by 50 percent. In fact, he'll be decreasing it by 50 percent.
Alan Khazei, who heads the highly praised (UNINTELLIGIBLE) service program, said "Basically, national service in America has been wiped out or reduced to a shell." Those who actually believed Mr. Bush's promise to expand national service are left to ponder the words of Mr. Bush's hero, Otter from "Animal House," who said, "You screwed up, you trusted me."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'd have to say -- I would truly be interested to know how many people know what AmeriCorps does. I did a long magazine story on AmeriCorps a number of years ago and I couldn't figure it out. I wasn't against it, but it seemed basically like a program that accomplished virtually nothing. And so...
BEGALA: That's different from Mr. Bush making a promise he doesn't keep. He gives his word; he should keep his word. That's all I say.
CARLSON: Look, Paul, I'm not going to debate the syntax of the president, but I will say that I think it's probably -- unless you can define for me what...
BEGALA: What increase means?
CARLSON: ... AmeriCorps does -- now truly.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You attacked Clinton because he didn't know what "is" is. This guy says increase by 50, he cuts it by 50.
CARLSON: Good for him.
Next, the sordid, messy network bidding war to turn Private Jessica Lynch's story into prime-time television. You're not going to believe what she's being bribed to do for a TV interview. We'll fill in the details and debate whether it's time to throw all journalism ethics out the window and pay Private Lynch for an interview next. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Private Jessica Lynch risked her life for our country and she nearly paid the ultimate price. Ambushed, wounded and captured in the early days of the Iraq war, she was helled as a POW by Saddam Hussein's forces until she was rescued by U.S. Special Forces.
Now she continues her recovery at the Walter Reed Medical Center here in Washington. Private Lynch is under siege again. But this time by the big TV networks.
Today's "New York Times" reveals the lengths to which CBS, ABC and NBC are willing to go to land the first interview with Private Lynch. In particular, the CBS proposal, which dangles the possibility of a TV movie deal and a guest spot on MTV, along with a book deal from fellow Viacom corporation Simon & Schuster, which you should know is my publisher as well.
In the interest of full disclosure, you should also know that CNN has offered pizza and beer to Private Lynch if she'll come on CROSSFIRE. But then we learned that she's only 20 years old. So I guess, Jessica, pizza and Yoo-Hoo for you.
To debate how much the networks should pay or whether they should at all pay for Jessica Lynch's story, we are joined by a distinguished pair of guests. Former CNN Washington bureau chief, Frank Sesno, now a professor of public policy at George Mason University, and Tammy Haddad, veteran TV producer and the former executive producer of CNN's very own "LARRY KING LIVE."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Tammy, you are not only the smartest television producer I know, but you're also the most honest. So I know you'll answer this question honestly.
CBS is offering to pay Jessica Lynch through another company. It's like saying, I can't pay you, but my brother will. But it's the same thing, isn't it?
TAMMY HADDAD, VETERAN TV PRODUCER: Tucker, that's a total outrage. That is not in there at all. In fact, later in the letter -- by the way, I got this from CBS News. This is what's not in "The New York Times."
CBS News -- this is a quote from the letter. "CBS News maintains editorial independence from the entertainment division" -- Frank. "We never tie interview requests to entertainment projects. And we want to make sure a CBS news proposal is being considered as a single entity."
There's no way -- and let me tell you something, as someone who's been on the front lines of these kinds of bookings for years. People say all the time, listen, we can help you here, we can help you there. And more importantly, these people in these situations who don't know how to handle this unwielding media machine but feel like they should get their share, they ask people like me, can you help me, can you advise me, can you give me some suggestions?
CARLSON: But in the original pitch letter, it's not like Lynch came back and said, I'm confused. Can you manage my affairs? They said, look, you do the interview with us and maybe we can get you money for a book deal.
HADDAD: No, no, no. It did not say that at all. It said, if you're interested in these other things, you should consider them. And I think there's nothing wrong with that.
I think that's just like CNN or any other network saying, when you come on this show, you'll be seen on CNN, you'll be on CNN international and the other kinds of things. There's nothing wrong with media organizations pointing out other things. BEGALA: Well, Frank, why not be even more fundamental? Just be honest. The reason the networks are pursuing Private Lynch is because her story is worth money.
These are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) corporations these networks, and they want to make money off of her pain and sacrifice. Why shouldn't she make money off of her pain and sacrifice?
(APPLAUSE)
FRANK SESNO, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: I don't have any problem with her making money off of her pain and sacrifice, but then be honest about it and don't pass it off as news. And make sure that the people who are watching television and watching the media -- let me finish -- and who are watching television and watching the media know that there was a dollar value to this.
Excuse me, do we have enough credibility problems in the world of -- wait a minute -- in the world of journalism and media now? Should we employ Jayson Blair, too?
BEGALA: Wait a minute. We pay -- NBC News pays Norman Schwarzkopf and Barry McCaffrey. We pay Wes Clark. So we can pay four-star generals but not privates, is that the deal?
SESNO: No. They are identified as consultants to the network. They are not identified as news sources. When you're leaking from the Clinton administration...
BEGALA: To you.
SESNO: Thank you. If you had been on a payroll, and I had been an honest journalist wanting to tell the audience exactly what was going on, I should have been telling you I was paying you for your information.
CARLSON: Wait a minute. Tammy, isn't -- there's another -- there's a tonal problem here. Here you have CBS News, which cannot shut up about the legacy of Edward R. Murrow, part-time (UNINTELLIGIBLE) pitchman, I think, but the legacy of hard news at CBS winding up here.
This is from the Jim Rutenberg story in "The Times" this morning. Jane Clayson, a CBS News morning correspondent, wrote a letter to Private Lynch in May reminding her that they she share the astrological sign of Taurus. "I hope you have a great day," said Ms. Clayson, "referring to Private Lynch's..."
Now, in addition to making you want to vomit, isn't that a sign of how low the news division there has sunk?
HADDAD: No. I think that's an outrageous think to say. And I'd like to see letters from CNN and other networks, too.
In fact, I've got to tell you, on the Jessica Lynch story, I'm sure that CBS is not the only network that offered to hook them up with other people. But here's my point. Not all of these people have access to Bob Barnett (ph), who we all know was Hillary Clinton's lawyer.
Wait a minute. Hillary Clinton has the best agent, the best lawyer, the best adviser money can buy. So she had this huge media group. Didn't you all see it on all the networks?
SESNO: Tammy, Jessica Lynch...
HADDAD: These are people who live in West Virginia, they do not know media people. And if someone wants to help them out, why not? Go ahead.
SESNO: Jessica Lynch has access to anybody she wants.
HADDAD: But she's in a hospital, Frank. Do you want her parents...
SESNO: Wait a minute -- may I finish? Thank you. Jessica Lynch has access to anybody she wants. She's got an incredible story to tell. She can sell the book, she can sell the movie, she can sell the memoirs, she can sell anything. But if she's selling...
BEGALA: Why is it OK to sell the book, the movie, the memoirs, but not the interview? It makes no sense, Frank.
(CROSSTALK)
SESNO: We do not -- let me tell you what happens with checkbook journalism. What happens with checkbook journalism is something that I saw on the streets of Belfast years ago, where some camera crew missed a story and they went out and they paid the kids to throw stones at the troops. And what happens when you sit home and you watch it?
BEGALA: Nobody's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this was a setup. This is a woman heroically serving her country and captured by the enemy.
SESNO: And, Paul, she sits down in front of the camera for a news interview. What's her ulterior motive? Does she embellish the story as she goes? Does she have any accountability?
(CROSSTALK)
HADDAD: That is media elitism. I'm sorry, I think that's media elitism. I do, because why shouldn't she have an opportunity?
CARLSON: Wait, let me ask this. I understand that she's poor and oppressed and from West Virginia. But leaving that completely aside, Frank raises a really question, and that is, can you trust the credibility of someone who is being paid?
You do not -- you are not allowed to pay an eyewitness to a crime in court. If he's paid, his testimony is, of course, suspect.
SESNO: And you didn't pay your guests on "LARRY KING LIVE," did you?
HADDAD: I would never pay guests...
SESNO: All right. You wouldn't. And why wouldn't you pay a guest on "LARRY KING LIVE"?
HADDAD: Because I want someone to tell their story because they want to tell it. But that's not the case here. I think it's an unfair (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: Because why buy a cow when you get free milk? They ought to be paying for it. This is a valuable commodity. That's what the networks want.
SESNO: Are you paying us?
BEGALA: No, but we should.
SESNO: Why?
BEGALA: Because we don't have to.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: This is a different case. It's not entertainment. It's not a service. The point is to get to the truth. And doesn't money pollute it?
HADDAD: Wait, hold on a second. Here's a problem, that this is the realistic problem. OK?
The problem is NBC is right now preparing a movie, TV movie of her life. It's unauthorized. She'll make no money. She'll have no role.
Do you consider that fair? Now these things get turned around fast. That's why these things are getting hooked up much more quickly.
CARLSON: We'll take a quick commercial break. When we come back, we're going to keep our guests. We're going to take a quick break.
Wolf Blitzer will have the latest headlines, including new efforts to rescue the road map for peace in the Middle East. Then on "RapidFire", questions and answers that come faster than networks' lucrative offers to Private Jessica Lynch.
And there's more news on the Hillary book front. You'll find out if I'm any closer to eating my shoes. Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for "RapidFire", the quickest question-and-answer session on television. We're talking about the broadcast networks' bidding war to interview Private Jessica Lynch.
According to "The New York Times," NBC's Katie Couric sent her a bundle of patriotic books; ABC's Diane Sawyer sent a locket with a photograph of Private Lynch's home in West Virginia. And CBS dangled the possibilities of movie, television and book deals, including a guest host slot on MTV.
We're discussing the question of ethics of all this with the legendary Tammy Haddad, former executive producer of CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE," and equally legendary, former CNN Washington bureau chief, Frank Sesno, now with the School of Public Policy at George Mason University.
BEGALA: Frank, his holiness, John Paul II, was paid $8.5 million for his book. Does that make you doubt his credibility?
SESNO: No, he was paid for a book and he wrote a good book. Jessica Lynch does an interview, it should not be for a check.
CARLSON: Tammy, doesn't the practice of paying -- doesn't it make the public cynical?
HADDAD: Oh, yes. That's what makes the public cynical, as opposed to media elite who think that Jessica Lynch shouldn't have access to these kinds of people at Simon & Schuster and these other places. It's your publisher.
BEGALA: It is.
HADDAD: They can't call up and say, hey, get me a book. They need these people. It's just an avenue.
I think you guys are taking this completely the wrong way. And I think it's outrageous because CBS News does not sell interviews.
SESNO: Tammy, wait. Just look at the polls. I mean, take a breath and look at the polls and the standing of journalism and television and media in America. Maybe we -- holier than thou we should think about how we look at how we behave and the integrity we bring to the table.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But, Frank, isn't the issue here corporate greed? Doesn't -- the news networks, don't they just want their raw material for free? Why shouldn't they have to pay for their raw material?
SESNO: We don't pay for sources, we don't pay for news. You start, you don't stop.
And how do people know? Look, across the bottom of the screen with the crawl and the weather and the sports, put the price tag of the source and the ulterior motive of the news.
CARLSON: Tammy, quickly, does it make you uncomfortable when Fox News at 10:00 comes off after "The Bachelor" and features an interview with one of the bachelorettes? Isn't that creepy? Isn't that commerce masquerading as news?
HADDAD: That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. How can you just pull stops out? Every single network does that.
CARLSON: Well, it was a good example. Tammy Haddad, Frank Sesno, thank you both very much.
BEGALA: A terrific debate.
Our viewers should know, of course, that neither Frank nor Tammy got paid. CNN has a policy of never paying any of its guests. But they do pay their hosts a whole lot of money, though. I'm happy about that.
Now the audience members, also here on their own free time, get a chance to vote. Tell us, should Jessica Lynch profit from her television interviews? Pull out your old voting devices in the studio audience.
Press one for yes, 20-year-old Jessica Lynch has just as much a right to profit from her interview as the media conglomerates do. Or two, no, journalistic ethics thinks that that's wrong, she should do the interview for free. I'll have the results for you after the break with our Fireback segment.
Plus, a dramatic development in the Hillary Clinton book story. One that might just turn Tucker Carlson's stomach, literally. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback".
But first, the results of our audience poll in which we asked, should CBS pay Jessica Lynch and pretend it's news? Yes, say 46 percent of our audience. No, we're remaining pure said the other 54 percent.
BEGALA: Pretty interesting. The question is should they pay those reporters who interview her, too? I don't want to get into that because they might not want to pay us.
OK. So "Fireback" No. 1 is from Pete Tenney, who writes us from White Sulphur Springs, Montana. Pete writes -- on the topic of Jessica Lynch -- "I don't care where Jessica Lynch ends up or how much money she makes off of whom. More power to her."
Good for you, Pete. I'm with you.
CARLSON: All right. Next up is Loretta Abbedulo from Reedsburg, Wisconsin. "Be careful that the Republicans don't suddenly find WMD just before the election and make us look foolish. They could be planted at any time."
Now, there is your classic Democratic primary voter.
BEGALA: Actually, that theory...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That theory I first heard from radio talk show host, Don Imus, who has been saying it a while. They'll find the WMD when the shipment arrives by FedEx from the CIA headquarters.
CARLSON: He's a Howard Dean voter, I can tell you.
BEGALA: Roy Bolduc of Gainesville, Florida writes "Tucker, I've searched through my collection of over 400 cookbooks to find a recipe for cooking shoes. No luck. Maybe you can watch Charlie Chaplin in the 'Gold Rush.' He does cook and eat his shoes in this movie. Watch it carefully and see if you can pick up any hints."
He's writing, of course, about Tucker's pledge to eat his shoes if Hillary Clinton sells a million books.
CARLSON: My question to you, Paul, is do you trust a man who has, "over 400 cookbooks?"
BEGALA: Well, the update for our audience, the answer is yes. But the update for our audience, so far, as of today, Hillary Clinton has sold 600,000 books. Four hundred thousand more, ladies and gentlemen. Everybody in the audience buy it.
It's called "Living History." Let's watch Tucker eat his shoes.
CARLSON: There are not 400,000 more gullible people in this nation.
BEGALA: Yes, sir? What's your question or comment? What's your name and hometown?
BRANDON: Hi. I'm, Brandon (ph) from Oceanside, New York. I just want to know, for a person like Jessica Lynch, that has served our nation so well, any woman or any person that has gone through what Jessica Lynch has gone through, why doesn't she deserve to get whatever she can for her service to our nation?
CARLSON: But that's not the point. It's not whether she deserves it. Sure, I have no problem with that at all.
The question is, should a news organization, ostensibly dedicating to gathering accurate, unbiased news, untainted by commercial consideration, should they be paying her? And the answer, of course, is no. The publisher wants to pay her, great; CBS, no.
BEGALA: Well so the theory is -- of course she should get paid, because the theory is she'll write a book for millions of dollars and she'll tell the truth there, even though she's paid millions. But we won't pay her at the news networks for her interview. It's nonsense.
CARLSON: No, but the book shouldn't be used to briber her to come on their news network to the exclusion of other networks, in my opinion. BEGALA: What should it be used for?
CARLSON: I don't know, Paul. That's a deeper question than we can tackle today.
BEGALA: Well, god bless Private Lynch. From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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