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CNN Crossfire
Will Iraq Become Another Vietnam?
Aired June 18, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE, on the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: there were warnings before the war about what it would take to win the peace.
GEN. ERIK SHINSEKI, ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: Something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers.
ANNOUNCER: Some disagree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark.
ANNOUNCER: So who was right? And is the U.S. bogged down in Iraq?
Plus, the latest on Hillary Clinton's book. Look who's talking about Tucker Carlson's shoes.
JOY BEHAR, "THE VIEW" HOST: And he said if she sells a million copies he will eat a shoe. And she's up to 600,000.
STAR JONES, "THE VIEW" HOST: And I've got just the shoe for him.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. We're starting today's show with a pop quiz. Ready. What's the Arabic word for Vietnam. Give up? The answer's Iraq.
In a little bit we'll debate just how big a mess the Bush administration has gotten the U.S. into. But first, we're going to get the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE political alert.
As if he hasn't gotten us into enough trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan, President Bush today decided to confront Iran. The president told Iranians, quote, "We will not tolerate the construction of a nuclear weapon," end quote. Iranians say their nuclear program is for peaceful purposes. And while there are reasons to distrust them, there are reasons not to threaten them in public.
Anyhow, why should the world believe President Bush when he says Iran wants nuclear weapons? His track record on who actually has weapons of mass destruction is shaky.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: You know, I mean, in the short term that may be a clever talking point, but the fact is you don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
CARVILLE: I agree.
CARLSON: And the idea that they're building it for peace, for what, energy production? Come on.
CARVILLE: They may be doing it. The fact is Bush says it, there's no relevance. Because he doesn't have any credibility over there.
CARLSON: This is the problem, this is what's happened on the left. Anything Bush says must be wrong but what if it's right? What if there's evidence they're building nuclear weapons?
CARVILLE: That's the danger, that's the danger of what he did. There's a little thing -- read the story about the little boy who cried wolf. That's the apropos thing here. We can't believe this man because he's shown himself willing to stretch the truth.
CARLSON: That is the danger with becoming an obsessive Bush hater.
CARVILLE: No, it's not. It's not.
CARLSON: You're blind to reality. I'm worried about you.
CARVILLE: He's a man who told me he'd balance the budget, he's the man that told be they'd find all these nuclear weapons in Iraq. He's the man that said he's fully fund Americorps.
CARLSON: Why did he make it up?
CARVILLE: Why did he make the stuff up in Iraq? Why'd he make that up? I don't know.
CARLSON: Speaking of sad ends, it has taken more than two years for Al Gore, but he finally believes he figured out why he lost the last election. It was a conspiracy, of course -- it always is -- led by the country's few conservative media outlets and financed by what Gore described as, quote, "wealthy ultraconservative billionaires who make political deals for the Republican administration and the rest of the media." And who probably faked the moon landing, although Gore did not say that.
Now that he has some free time on his hands, Gore believes he's hit upon a solution, a counter-conspiracy from the left. According to "TIME" magazine the former vice president is working to develop a liberal media network with its own heavy-handed propaganda. Gore has convinced some rich Hollywood types to pay for it. Now all he needs are some liberal ideas that the rest of us can take seriously. And that, of course, could take a while. We'll keep you posted.
CARVILLE: I'll give you one, Mr. Vice President. A good, level idea that I would take seriously. As opposed this administration should tell the truth. The truth is you won the election. The truth is, you have every right to start any kind of network that you want to.
And now, they're sitting here attacking people for wanting to be heard. They are attacking people for wanting to start a network. The patriot police is out in full regalia now.
CARLSON: You can say that, but the fact is I totally, I support the former vice president's efforts to start his own liberal propaganda network. The fact is, nobody is going to listen, nobody is going to watch.
CARVILLE: You said nobody would buy Hillary's book. Which should give you your track record.
CARLSON: I was wrong about that.
CARVILLE: Back when Senator Tom Daschle criticized the president's policies before the war, Republicans and talk radio idiots went ballistic. Now Newt Gingrich is criticizing the government at the same time Americans are getting shot at in Iraq and there's a deafening, thundering silence.
Gingrich's target is the U.S. State Department, although he hasn't called out Secretary Powell by name. The "Times" quotes Newt as saying the State Department is, quote, "a broken institution," end quote. He goes on to say Colin Powell, quote, "needs to experience culture shock from top to bottom." Nothing personal, of course.
CARLSON: James, just to let you know a little secret, the State Department does not wage war. Newt Gingrich is not elected to anything. He's a private citizen. The comparison is ludicrous and actually...
CARVILLE: Tom Daschle can't criticize the State Department, what's wrong with that, before, no one is getting shot at. We're losing a troop a day. I'm saying anybody has a right to, I'm not criticizing Gingrich for saying what he did. I'm criticizing the idiots that criticized Tom Daschle and the patriot police and all those other clowns out that try to suppress any dissent in this country. But they're not suppressing James Carville.
CARLSON: As usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. But I hope you'll open up your mind wide enough to assess what Newt Gingrich said and maybe there's some truth in it. What are you talking about?
CARVILLE: Again, it might be. I'm not attacking Newt Gingrich. I'm attacking people like you who criticize Tom Daschle when you're trying to suppress all opposition in this country to this administration. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm going to tell you right now.
CARLSON: Whatever that means.
Senator John Kerry cares deeply about the environment. Deeply. Deeply. The Democratic presidential candidate says so in nearly all of his speeches.
Just last week he told a crowd in Iowa that America should produce 20 percent of its electricity from renewable sources by the year 2020. Twenty by '20, Mr. Kerry said. Now, that's a clear vision for America. Unless, of course, it obstructs the view of his rich friends.
Environmental groups would like to see a clean, energy-producing windmill farm built off the coast of Nantucket. Walter Cronkite, members of the Kennedy family and other liberal summer residents oppose it. "To hell with global warming," they said. "Not in our backyard, it's ugly."
According to a story by Sam Deely (ph) in this morning's Hill newspaper, John Kerry doesn't disagree. Despite pressure from Greenpeace and other environmental groups, Kerry has not supported the project. Renewable energy is fine, in other words, as long as it doesn't affect property values in fashionable neighborhoods.
I have never seen a more revolting example...
CARVILLE: ... sillier things in this country when we've got $44 trillion in debt coming up.
CARLSON: You can change the subject.
CARVILLE: A quagmire in Iraq and you're talking about putting some damn windmills up.
CARLSON: Actually, I think -- I think renewable energy is important and I'm sorry...
CARVILLE: You think that's your number one issue...
CARLSON: Actually, it is one of the most important issues in this country. He's running on it, you'd think he would mean it.
CARVILLE: ... Tucker will be windmills off of Massachusetts.
CARLSON: Actually, I think it's a fine idea. My environmental friends and I agree on that.
Coming up, we'll explain yet one more time why Iraq is not Vietnam and not even near each other. And George W. Bush is thankfully not Lyndon B. Johnson.
And later, the senator from New York has not sold a million books yet. Why do you ask? We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CARVILLE: Welcome back.
The Bush administration went out of its way this afternoon to show the nation we have not wandered into a quagmire in Iraq. All we have to do is stay a little longer, spend a little more money and those missing weapons of mass destruction are sure to turn up. President Bush says everything will be fine.
Only a short time ago, Iraqi reconstruction czar Jay Garner said everything will be fine. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says everything will be fine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In short, the coalition is making good progress. It was made possible by the excellent military plan of General Franks and by the terrific leadership of the stabilization effort by Mr. Jay Garner and his team.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: The message is loud and clear. Jay Garner, if he was so good, why did they fire him? Any time now, the Iraqis will start dancing in the streets because we're there.
So is the U.S. bogged down in Iraq? In the CROSSFIRE, Cliff May, the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy, and Al Hunt, executive -- Washington executive editor for the "Wall Street Journal," who is also a member of CNN's Capital Gang.
CARLSON: Al, thanks for joining us.
I understand all of this whining as a species of politics, which is what it is. And it began the second week of April, the day Baghdad fell. But doesn't it obscure -- and this is the downside to it -- doesn't it obscure the headline, which is, Saddam is gone. Millions of Iraqis are, by any definition, liberated and the region is safer.
Isn't that the real story?
AL HUNT, WASHINGTON EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": I think there's no question it's good news that Saddam is gone, Tucker.
But really the argument began before April 9. It began back in January and February, when Dick Lugar and others tried to get the administration -- what they were going to do the day after the war.
And I think it's clear that General Shinseki, the Army general, said we'll need several hundred troops and they need more troops for the postwar than we do during the war was right. And his critics like Don Rumsfeld were wrong. We underestimated the scope of the postwar problem.
And Tucker, I think you're absolutely right that it's fantastic news Saddam is gone. He was a terrible tyrant. But remember we replaced the regime in Afghanistan back in the early '90s, the terrible communist regime. We said anything is better than what we've had. Well, it ended up we've got another terrible regime. Reconstruction's important.
CARVILLE: Let me go to what you said about General Shinseki because he said one thing and Mr. Wolfowitz and Mr. Rumsfeld said another. Who was right? Was the general right, or was Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Wolfowitz right?
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Clearly Mr. Wolfowitz and Mr. Rumsfeld were right.
CARVILLE: Right. We don't need 200,000. Twenty-thousand troops?
MAY: He said several hundred thousand and we have 145,000 right now and they're doing a pretty good job. Right now we have hundreds of newspapers being published in Iraq; we never had that before. Refugees returning, voting with their feet. No health care crisis, no food crisis and about 65 percent of Iraqis, according to polls, say, "I want the American soldiers to stay."
By the way the quagmire talk began even earlier. The second week in the war, "It's a quagmire. We're going to be in this war for months, for years." No. Look, it's going to be a hard job to help do what you're in favor of, nation building, but we can do it here. We didn't do it in Haiti, because we didn't stick it out, but we can do it here.
CARVILLE: Let me ask you a thing here. Because you're a big nation-building man. President George W. Bush and the leader reconfirmed on the commitment to -- how is our rebuilding of Afghanistan going? Give it a grade, A through F.
MAY: In Afghanistan?
CARVILLE: Yes. We promised that we'd rebuild. How's it going?
MAY: We've got a lot of work to do.
CARVILLE: Give them a grade. Come on, Cliff.
MAY: I'll give them about a gentleman's C, C plus at this point. A gentleman's C.
CARVILLE: Come on, we're not looking at a gentleman's C.
MAY: Let me get this right. It's a gentleman's C for this reason. We do not have people in the stadiums having their limbs cut off. We have women going to school. People can play record players and TV sets, that's a success. And you should be able to recognize it.
CARLSON: Look, Al, ultimately, I agree with you that there are serious questions to be asked about reconstruction and five years down the road, I think they can be asked fairly and assessed clearly. But at this point, this is a political effort to attack the president on this question by Democrats. I want to contrast that effort with the reality of public opinion. The latest CBS News poll, taken three days ago, showed that 62 percent of the public believes the ouster of Saddam alone was worth the cost of American lives.
So as a pure political matter, this is just the wrong tree to be barking up, isn't it?
HUNT: Well, except that I think that the most, the most pronounced critics have really been Republicans. Dick Lugar, Chuck Hegel, Tony Blair, as a matter of fact, just named the new envoy to go to Baghdad because he's so worried about the chaos that's ensued.
And Cliff is just wrong about Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld. They said it would take less than 100,000. They said it was illogical to think that it would take more people after the war than it did during the war. In fact, it has.
And if you look at what General Shinseki said, he talked about 200,000 and counting -- he said 200,000 in the press conference, including all support personnel, which is where we are right now.
In part, Tucker, we were hurt by our success. Our great military success. We thought there would be a refugee problem, we thought there would be a hunger problem, but there's not. But there is a terrible crime and protocol problem.
CARLSON: But don't you think the overstatement involved discredits the critics. For instance, directly after Baghdad fell, there was a page one report in the "New York Times," there were 100,000 priceless artifacts looted from the national museum in Baghdad, never to be recovered again. Now it turns out there are about 33 missing.
People also are unaware that before the war only 70 percent of water in the country was considered safe. The country itself was in shambles before we got there. Doesn't the overstatement sort of take the credibility away?
HUNT: The American experts over there. There was clearly hype about the museum. But the American experts over there said there are now thousands of missing pieces, still, the library was destroyed, the national library, hospitals and medical equipment were destroyed, all the computers were ransacked at the university. So I think the damage was considerable, even if some of the stories were hyped.
CARVILLE: You're worried about the overstatement of the problem there? As a Republican and a Bush supporter, you think overstatement is a dangerous thing?
MAY: In this...
CARVILLE: What do you think about the weapons of mass destruction if you're so damn worried about overstatement? MAY: Let me address both of those. I think that Al is right; we did need 100,000, we needed 145,000, you were right. But that's no quagmire, obviously.
Secondly...
CARVILLE: If you're one of the 145,000 getting shot at, it is a quagmire.
MAY: I hope we can all agree here -- I hope we can all agree here that the fact that we went into Afghanistan, the fact that we went into Iraq was a good thing, as we find the mass graves in every single town, as we open the prisons, let the kids out. We all agree it was a good thing that we secured regime change, don't we?
CARVILLE: Well, first of all, let me say this. I think it's a good thing. Whether it's worth it or not, I don't know. Are we safer today as a result of being there?
CARLSON: I want to say something.
Al, I want to hear, I want to hear this questioned answered. Liberal critics imply the president lied about the war, lied about the WMD in order to get us to the war. What would his motive be for lying?
HUNT: Well, his motive, if he did exaggerate or hype -- I wouldn't use the term lie -- was to rally public support and make it easier to go in and go in without the kind of allies...
CARLSON: Why?
HUNT: Because he wanted to replace Saddam Hussein, which I think was a noble goal, which I was for, Tucker. I'm not sure if he did it in the best way. I certainly think if it ends up that he hyped their imminent threat, that that's a danger to American credibility.
MAY: You've got to understand. The intelligence analysis they used by the Bush administration was the same one used by the Clinton administration, which is why Clinton bombed suspected WMD sites in 1998 while Clinton passed the Iraq Liberation Act calling for regime change. You were in favor of that then, you should be now.
CARVILLE: What I'm not in favor of is spending a gazillion dollars over there.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: On that remarkable note, we'll end. Al Hunt, thank you very much from the "Wall Street Journal." Cliff May from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, thank you.
CARVILLE: Just ahead on CROSSFIRE, we called Hillary Clinton's publisher today, how many copies of the new book do you think have sold? After the break and Wolf Blitzer's headlines, you'll see whether Tucker is still wearing his shoes. You'll also see why the women on ABC's "The View" were talking about Tucker's shoes on their show this morning.
And in feedback, a viewer suggests something might taste good with shoe leather.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
All of Washington woke up this morning to find none other than Tucker Carlson's picture. It was featured prominently at the top of the "Washington Post's" "Reliable Sources" gossip column.
So what was it that got Tucker in the paper today? Of course, it was his promise on CROSSFIRE to eat his shoes if Senator Hillary Clinton sells a million copies of her outstanding new book.
Tucker's lunch plans are also the talk of TV. Look what Joy Behar, a guest (sic) of ABC's "The View" had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, there's a guy on CROSSFIRE, Tucker Carlson. I watch CROSSFIRE all the time, 4:30 on CNN. I mean, not to push it; I just happen to love the show. It's a real fight between the left and the right and Tucker Carlson, who's on the right, he can't stand her apparently. And he said if she sells a million copies he will eat a shoe. And they've been telling every day, they say...
MEREDITH VIEIRA, "THE VIEW" CO-HOST: He better get ready.
BEHAR: And she's up to 600,000.
JONES: And I've got just the shoe for him.
BEHAR: OK. The one with the heel. Here. Eat it! Eat it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: All right. Well, looks like I will have to eat the pronunciation of Ms. Behar's name, but I apologize for mispronouncing your name, but you make a good point. Tucker?
CARLSON: Yes, sir.
CARVILLE: What about this -- You also had a bet with Begala.
CARLSON: Yes, I did. And James, I'm still -- I'm betting on America. I'm not betting with you, I'm not betting with Paul, I'm not betting with Mrs. Clinton. I'm betting that America is still the country I remember, a good country.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: A solid country, a sensible country.
CARVILLE: Right. CARLSON: A country that doesn't buy a million copies of Mrs. Clinton's book.
CARVILLE: It's like...
CARLSON: OK, James. That's the America I love and that's the America I'm betting on.
CARVILLE: She got, you know, a gazillion votes in New York when she ran for the Senate, it's not like she is opposed to George W. Bush. She actually won the election to hold the office that she holds.
But I tell you, what you're doing, as opposed to trying to weasel out of the thing, why don't you agree like you do in even for Billy Shore (ph), share our strength because it works in corporate America to have street people (ph). And I bet you Begala will let you out of that.
CARLSON: I have never weaseled out of anything and I won't now.
It's time to ask our audience question. In her book, who does Hillary Clinton describe as the most contentious, in your face, don't give an inch friend? Pull out your audience voting devices. Press one for Susan McDougal, who refused to testify against Bill Clinton. Press two for Dick Morris, the total loving former Clinton adviser. And press three for James Carville, sitting right here on the set.
We'll have the results as well as the correct answer when we return.
And then Howard Dean's admirers come to "Fireback." We'll explain when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback." But first the results of our audience quiz. And of course, the question was, who was described in Mrs. Clinton's book as, quote, "the most contentious, in-your-face, don't give them an inch friend."
The audience said: 28 percent believes that Susan McDougal, 26 percent believe it's teleficionado Dick Morris; 46 percent believe it's our own James Carville. And of course, the 46 percent are right. It is, in fact, James Carville.
CARVILLE: There you go. Time for "Fireback" now. Let's go.
"Tucker, would you like some freedom fries to go along with your shoes if Hillary Clinton's book sells over a million copies?" Enzo Pontrelli of Brooklyn, New York.
CARLSON: Yes, I would.
CARVILLE: What would actually be something to do. What does one put with shoe leather? CARLSON: Beer.
CARVILLE: Toe cheese.
CARLSON: Lots of beer. James, come on, it's already unpleasant.
Next up, Jeanne from Kamucia, Hawaii writes, "Tucker says Mr. Howard Dean is far left and fringe. I think his stances are unique and cannot be labeled."
Well, you know, Jeanne, I agree with you. They are, as you put it, unique and cannot be labeled. Good point.
CARVILLE: And he's different.
CARLSON: Yes. Unique. Cannot be labeled.
Yes, sir, a question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is John. I'm from Seattle, Washington. My question is, how will the Democratic Party develop a more respected voice on foreign policy issues and who's the most qualified to do that?
CARLSON: Well, obviously, Joe Lieberman is the most qualified. I think he's the most serious candidate on that issue. That is the issue that will define this election. It's an open question as to whether Joe Lieberman can get anywhere with his own party, where he's way too conservative.
CARVILLE: I just returned from your gorgeous city; I love that place, man. That is one cool city and there are any number of good people in there on foreign policy. Joe Lieberman, Mark Joe Dodd (ph), he's got, you know...
CARLSON: He's not running.
CARVILLE: But he may.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm David from Lacrosse (ph), Wisconsin. If we're not in a quagmire in Iraq, how do you continue to justify the loss of American life?
CARLSON: Well, I mean, they're really two separate questions. I mean, any loss of American life in an accident -- most of the deaths have been by accident -- or under hostile fire by definition, it's a tragedy. But it doesn't mean that it's not a worthy objective, that is, creating a new and better society in Iraq. I think it is, I think. By bipartisan agreement, it's a good thing.
CARVILLE: Right. A quagmire is defined as having 200,000 troops in a country that don't want you there and the people shoot at you. From the left I'm James Carville. That's CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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Aired June 18, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE, on the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: there were warnings before the war about what it would take to win the peace.
GEN. ERIK SHINSEKI, ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: Something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers.
ANNOUNCER: Some disagree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark.
ANNOUNCER: So who was right? And is the U.S. bogged down in Iraq?
Plus, the latest on Hillary Clinton's book. Look who's talking about Tucker Carlson's shoes.
JOY BEHAR, "THE VIEW" HOST: And he said if she sells a million copies he will eat a shoe. And she's up to 600,000.
STAR JONES, "THE VIEW" HOST: And I've got just the shoe for him.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. We're starting today's show with a pop quiz. Ready. What's the Arabic word for Vietnam. Give up? The answer's Iraq.
In a little bit we'll debate just how big a mess the Bush administration has gotten the U.S. into. But first, we're going to get the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE political alert.
As if he hasn't gotten us into enough trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan, President Bush today decided to confront Iran. The president told Iranians, quote, "We will not tolerate the construction of a nuclear weapon," end quote. Iranians say their nuclear program is for peaceful purposes. And while there are reasons to distrust them, there are reasons not to threaten them in public.
Anyhow, why should the world believe President Bush when he says Iran wants nuclear weapons? His track record on who actually has weapons of mass destruction is shaky.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: You know, I mean, in the short term that may be a clever talking point, but the fact is you don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
CARVILLE: I agree.
CARLSON: And the idea that they're building it for peace, for what, energy production? Come on.
CARVILLE: They may be doing it. The fact is Bush says it, there's no relevance. Because he doesn't have any credibility over there.
CARLSON: This is the problem, this is what's happened on the left. Anything Bush says must be wrong but what if it's right? What if there's evidence they're building nuclear weapons?
CARVILLE: That's the danger, that's the danger of what he did. There's a little thing -- read the story about the little boy who cried wolf. That's the apropos thing here. We can't believe this man because he's shown himself willing to stretch the truth.
CARLSON: That is the danger with becoming an obsessive Bush hater.
CARVILLE: No, it's not. It's not.
CARLSON: You're blind to reality. I'm worried about you.
CARVILLE: He's a man who told me he'd balance the budget, he's the man that told be they'd find all these nuclear weapons in Iraq. He's the man that said he's fully fund Americorps.
CARLSON: Why did he make it up?
CARVILLE: Why did he make the stuff up in Iraq? Why'd he make that up? I don't know.
CARLSON: Speaking of sad ends, it has taken more than two years for Al Gore, but he finally believes he figured out why he lost the last election. It was a conspiracy, of course -- it always is -- led by the country's few conservative media outlets and financed by what Gore described as, quote, "wealthy ultraconservative billionaires who make political deals for the Republican administration and the rest of the media." And who probably faked the moon landing, although Gore did not say that.
Now that he has some free time on his hands, Gore believes he's hit upon a solution, a counter-conspiracy from the left. According to "TIME" magazine the former vice president is working to develop a liberal media network with its own heavy-handed propaganda. Gore has convinced some rich Hollywood types to pay for it. Now all he needs are some liberal ideas that the rest of us can take seriously. And that, of course, could take a while. We'll keep you posted.
CARVILLE: I'll give you one, Mr. Vice President. A good, level idea that I would take seriously. As opposed this administration should tell the truth. The truth is you won the election. The truth is, you have every right to start any kind of network that you want to.
And now, they're sitting here attacking people for wanting to be heard. They are attacking people for wanting to start a network. The patriot police is out in full regalia now.
CARLSON: You can say that, but the fact is I totally, I support the former vice president's efforts to start his own liberal propaganda network. The fact is, nobody is going to listen, nobody is going to watch.
CARVILLE: You said nobody would buy Hillary's book. Which should give you your track record.
CARLSON: I was wrong about that.
CARVILLE: Back when Senator Tom Daschle criticized the president's policies before the war, Republicans and talk radio idiots went ballistic. Now Newt Gingrich is criticizing the government at the same time Americans are getting shot at in Iraq and there's a deafening, thundering silence.
Gingrich's target is the U.S. State Department, although he hasn't called out Secretary Powell by name. The "Times" quotes Newt as saying the State Department is, quote, "a broken institution," end quote. He goes on to say Colin Powell, quote, "needs to experience culture shock from top to bottom." Nothing personal, of course.
CARLSON: James, just to let you know a little secret, the State Department does not wage war. Newt Gingrich is not elected to anything. He's a private citizen. The comparison is ludicrous and actually...
CARVILLE: Tom Daschle can't criticize the State Department, what's wrong with that, before, no one is getting shot at. We're losing a troop a day. I'm saying anybody has a right to, I'm not criticizing Gingrich for saying what he did. I'm criticizing the idiots that criticized Tom Daschle and the patriot police and all those other clowns out that try to suppress any dissent in this country. But they're not suppressing James Carville.
CARLSON: As usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. But I hope you'll open up your mind wide enough to assess what Newt Gingrich said and maybe there's some truth in it. What are you talking about?
CARVILLE: Again, it might be. I'm not attacking Newt Gingrich. I'm attacking people like you who criticize Tom Daschle when you're trying to suppress all opposition in this country to this administration. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm going to tell you right now.
CARLSON: Whatever that means.
Senator John Kerry cares deeply about the environment. Deeply. Deeply. The Democratic presidential candidate says so in nearly all of his speeches.
Just last week he told a crowd in Iowa that America should produce 20 percent of its electricity from renewable sources by the year 2020. Twenty by '20, Mr. Kerry said. Now, that's a clear vision for America. Unless, of course, it obstructs the view of his rich friends.
Environmental groups would like to see a clean, energy-producing windmill farm built off the coast of Nantucket. Walter Cronkite, members of the Kennedy family and other liberal summer residents oppose it. "To hell with global warming," they said. "Not in our backyard, it's ugly."
According to a story by Sam Deely (ph) in this morning's Hill newspaper, John Kerry doesn't disagree. Despite pressure from Greenpeace and other environmental groups, Kerry has not supported the project. Renewable energy is fine, in other words, as long as it doesn't affect property values in fashionable neighborhoods.
I have never seen a more revolting example...
CARVILLE: ... sillier things in this country when we've got $44 trillion in debt coming up.
CARLSON: You can change the subject.
CARVILLE: A quagmire in Iraq and you're talking about putting some damn windmills up.
CARLSON: Actually, I think -- I think renewable energy is important and I'm sorry...
CARVILLE: You think that's your number one issue...
CARLSON: Actually, it is one of the most important issues in this country. He's running on it, you'd think he would mean it.
CARVILLE: ... Tucker will be windmills off of Massachusetts.
CARLSON: Actually, I think it's a fine idea. My environmental friends and I agree on that.
Coming up, we'll explain yet one more time why Iraq is not Vietnam and not even near each other. And George W. Bush is thankfully not Lyndon B. Johnson.
And later, the senator from New York has not sold a million books yet. Why do you ask? We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CARVILLE: Welcome back.
The Bush administration went out of its way this afternoon to show the nation we have not wandered into a quagmire in Iraq. All we have to do is stay a little longer, spend a little more money and those missing weapons of mass destruction are sure to turn up. President Bush says everything will be fine.
Only a short time ago, Iraqi reconstruction czar Jay Garner said everything will be fine. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says everything will be fine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In short, the coalition is making good progress. It was made possible by the excellent military plan of General Franks and by the terrific leadership of the stabilization effort by Mr. Jay Garner and his team.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: The message is loud and clear. Jay Garner, if he was so good, why did they fire him? Any time now, the Iraqis will start dancing in the streets because we're there.
So is the U.S. bogged down in Iraq? In the CROSSFIRE, Cliff May, the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy, and Al Hunt, executive -- Washington executive editor for the "Wall Street Journal," who is also a member of CNN's Capital Gang.
CARLSON: Al, thanks for joining us.
I understand all of this whining as a species of politics, which is what it is. And it began the second week of April, the day Baghdad fell. But doesn't it obscure -- and this is the downside to it -- doesn't it obscure the headline, which is, Saddam is gone. Millions of Iraqis are, by any definition, liberated and the region is safer.
Isn't that the real story?
AL HUNT, WASHINGTON EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": I think there's no question it's good news that Saddam is gone, Tucker.
But really the argument began before April 9. It began back in January and February, when Dick Lugar and others tried to get the administration -- what they were going to do the day after the war.
And I think it's clear that General Shinseki, the Army general, said we'll need several hundred troops and they need more troops for the postwar than we do during the war was right. And his critics like Don Rumsfeld were wrong. We underestimated the scope of the postwar problem.
And Tucker, I think you're absolutely right that it's fantastic news Saddam is gone. He was a terrible tyrant. But remember we replaced the regime in Afghanistan back in the early '90s, the terrible communist regime. We said anything is better than what we've had. Well, it ended up we've got another terrible regime. Reconstruction's important.
CARVILLE: Let me go to what you said about General Shinseki because he said one thing and Mr. Wolfowitz and Mr. Rumsfeld said another. Who was right? Was the general right, or was Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Wolfowitz right?
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Clearly Mr. Wolfowitz and Mr. Rumsfeld were right.
CARVILLE: Right. We don't need 200,000. Twenty-thousand troops?
MAY: He said several hundred thousand and we have 145,000 right now and they're doing a pretty good job. Right now we have hundreds of newspapers being published in Iraq; we never had that before. Refugees returning, voting with their feet. No health care crisis, no food crisis and about 65 percent of Iraqis, according to polls, say, "I want the American soldiers to stay."
By the way the quagmire talk began even earlier. The second week in the war, "It's a quagmire. We're going to be in this war for months, for years." No. Look, it's going to be a hard job to help do what you're in favor of, nation building, but we can do it here. We didn't do it in Haiti, because we didn't stick it out, but we can do it here.
CARVILLE: Let me ask you a thing here. Because you're a big nation-building man. President George W. Bush and the leader reconfirmed on the commitment to -- how is our rebuilding of Afghanistan going? Give it a grade, A through F.
MAY: In Afghanistan?
CARVILLE: Yes. We promised that we'd rebuild. How's it going?
MAY: We've got a lot of work to do.
CARVILLE: Give them a grade. Come on, Cliff.
MAY: I'll give them about a gentleman's C, C plus at this point. A gentleman's C.
CARVILLE: Come on, we're not looking at a gentleman's C.
MAY: Let me get this right. It's a gentleman's C for this reason. We do not have people in the stadiums having their limbs cut off. We have women going to school. People can play record players and TV sets, that's a success. And you should be able to recognize it.
CARLSON: Look, Al, ultimately, I agree with you that there are serious questions to be asked about reconstruction and five years down the road, I think they can be asked fairly and assessed clearly. But at this point, this is a political effort to attack the president on this question by Democrats. I want to contrast that effort with the reality of public opinion. The latest CBS News poll, taken three days ago, showed that 62 percent of the public believes the ouster of Saddam alone was worth the cost of American lives.
So as a pure political matter, this is just the wrong tree to be barking up, isn't it?
HUNT: Well, except that I think that the most, the most pronounced critics have really been Republicans. Dick Lugar, Chuck Hegel, Tony Blair, as a matter of fact, just named the new envoy to go to Baghdad because he's so worried about the chaos that's ensued.
And Cliff is just wrong about Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld. They said it would take less than 100,000. They said it was illogical to think that it would take more people after the war than it did during the war. In fact, it has.
And if you look at what General Shinseki said, he talked about 200,000 and counting -- he said 200,000 in the press conference, including all support personnel, which is where we are right now.
In part, Tucker, we were hurt by our success. Our great military success. We thought there would be a refugee problem, we thought there would be a hunger problem, but there's not. But there is a terrible crime and protocol problem.
CARLSON: But don't you think the overstatement involved discredits the critics. For instance, directly after Baghdad fell, there was a page one report in the "New York Times," there were 100,000 priceless artifacts looted from the national museum in Baghdad, never to be recovered again. Now it turns out there are about 33 missing.
People also are unaware that before the war only 70 percent of water in the country was considered safe. The country itself was in shambles before we got there. Doesn't the overstatement sort of take the credibility away?
HUNT: The American experts over there. There was clearly hype about the museum. But the American experts over there said there are now thousands of missing pieces, still, the library was destroyed, the national library, hospitals and medical equipment were destroyed, all the computers were ransacked at the university. So I think the damage was considerable, even if some of the stories were hyped.
CARVILLE: You're worried about the overstatement of the problem there? As a Republican and a Bush supporter, you think overstatement is a dangerous thing?
MAY: In this...
CARVILLE: What do you think about the weapons of mass destruction if you're so damn worried about overstatement? MAY: Let me address both of those. I think that Al is right; we did need 100,000, we needed 145,000, you were right. But that's no quagmire, obviously.
Secondly...
CARVILLE: If you're one of the 145,000 getting shot at, it is a quagmire.
MAY: I hope we can all agree here -- I hope we can all agree here that the fact that we went into Afghanistan, the fact that we went into Iraq was a good thing, as we find the mass graves in every single town, as we open the prisons, let the kids out. We all agree it was a good thing that we secured regime change, don't we?
CARVILLE: Well, first of all, let me say this. I think it's a good thing. Whether it's worth it or not, I don't know. Are we safer today as a result of being there?
CARLSON: I want to say something.
Al, I want to hear, I want to hear this questioned answered. Liberal critics imply the president lied about the war, lied about the WMD in order to get us to the war. What would his motive be for lying?
HUNT: Well, his motive, if he did exaggerate or hype -- I wouldn't use the term lie -- was to rally public support and make it easier to go in and go in without the kind of allies...
CARLSON: Why?
HUNT: Because he wanted to replace Saddam Hussein, which I think was a noble goal, which I was for, Tucker. I'm not sure if he did it in the best way. I certainly think if it ends up that he hyped their imminent threat, that that's a danger to American credibility.
MAY: You've got to understand. The intelligence analysis they used by the Bush administration was the same one used by the Clinton administration, which is why Clinton bombed suspected WMD sites in 1998 while Clinton passed the Iraq Liberation Act calling for regime change. You were in favor of that then, you should be now.
CARVILLE: What I'm not in favor of is spending a gazillion dollars over there.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: On that remarkable note, we'll end. Al Hunt, thank you very much from the "Wall Street Journal." Cliff May from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, thank you.
CARVILLE: Just ahead on CROSSFIRE, we called Hillary Clinton's publisher today, how many copies of the new book do you think have sold? After the break and Wolf Blitzer's headlines, you'll see whether Tucker is still wearing his shoes. You'll also see why the women on ABC's "The View" were talking about Tucker's shoes on their show this morning.
And in feedback, a viewer suggests something might taste good with shoe leather.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
All of Washington woke up this morning to find none other than Tucker Carlson's picture. It was featured prominently at the top of the "Washington Post's" "Reliable Sources" gossip column.
So what was it that got Tucker in the paper today? Of course, it was his promise on CROSSFIRE to eat his shoes if Senator Hillary Clinton sells a million copies of her outstanding new book.
Tucker's lunch plans are also the talk of TV. Look what Joy Behar, a guest (sic) of ABC's "The View" had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, there's a guy on CROSSFIRE, Tucker Carlson. I watch CROSSFIRE all the time, 4:30 on CNN. I mean, not to push it; I just happen to love the show. It's a real fight between the left and the right and Tucker Carlson, who's on the right, he can't stand her apparently. And he said if she sells a million copies he will eat a shoe. And they've been telling every day, they say...
MEREDITH VIEIRA, "THE VIEW" CO-HOST: He better get ready.
BEHAR: And she's up to 600,000.
JONES: And I've got just the shoe for him.
BEHAR: OK. The one with the heel. Here. Eat it! Eat it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: All right. Well, looks like I will have to eat the pronunciation of Ms. Behar's name, but I apologize for mispronouncing your name, but you make a good point. Tucker?
CARLSON: Yes, sir.
CARVILLE: What about this -- You also had a bet with Begala.
CARLSON: Yes, I did. And James, I'm still -- I'm betting on America. I'm not betting with you, I'm not betting with Paul, I'm not betting with Mrs. Clinton. I'm betting that America is still the country I remember, a good country.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: A solid country, a sensible country.
CARVILLE: Right. CARLSON: A country that doesn't buy a million copies of Mrs. Clinton's book.
CARVILLE: It's like...
CARLSON: OK, James. That's the America I love and that's the America I'm betting on.
CARVILLE: She got, you know, a gazillion votes in New York when she ran for the Senate, it's not like she is opposed to George W. Bush. She actually won the election to hold the office that she holds.
But I tell you, what you're doing, as opposed to trying to weasel out of the thing, why don't you agree like you do in even for Billy Shore (ph), share our strength because it works in corporate America to have street people (ph). And I bet you Begala will let you out of that.
CARLSON: I have never weaseled out of anything and I won't now.
It's time to ask our audience question. In her book, who does Hillary Clinton describe as the most contentious, in your face, don't give an inch friend? Pull out your audience voting devices. Press one for Susan McDougal, who refused to testify against Bill Clinton. Press two for Dick Morris, the total loving former Clinton adviser. And press three for James Carville, sitting right here on the set.
We'll have the results as well as the correct answer when we return.
And then Howard Dean's admirers come to "Fireback." We'll explain when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback." But first the results of our audience quiz. And of course, the question was, who was described in Mrs. Clinton's book as, quote, "the most contentious, in-your-face, don't give them an inch friend."
The audience said: 28 percent believes that Susan McDougal, 26 percent believe it's teleficionado Dick Morris; 46 percent believe it's our own James Carville. And of course, the 46 percent are right. It is, in fact, James Carville.
CARVILLE: There you go. Time for "Fireback" now. Let's go.
"Tucker, would you like some freedom fries to go along with your shoes if Hillary Clinton's book sells over a million copies?" Enzo Pontrelli of Brooklyn, New York.
CARLSON: Yes, I would.
CARVILLE: What would actually be something to do. What does one put with shoe leather? CARLSON: Beer.
CARVILLE: Toe cheese.
CARLSON: Lots of beer. James, come on, it's already unpleasant.
Next up, Jeanne from Kamucia, Hawaii writes, "Tucker says Mr. Howard Dean is far left and fringe. I think his stances are unique and cannot be labeled."
Well, you know, Jeanne, I agree with you. They are, as you put it, unique and cannot be labeled. Good point.
CARVILLE: And he's different.
CARLSON: Yes. Unique. Cannot be labeled.
Yes, sir, a question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is John. I'm from Seattle, Washington. My question is, how will the Democratic Party develop a more respected voice on foreign policy issues and who's the most qualified to do that?
CARLSON: Well, obviously, Joe Lieberman is the most qualified. I think he's the most serious candidate on that issue. That is the issue that will define this election. It's an open question as to whether Joe Lieberman can get anywhere with his own party, where he's way too conservative.
CARVILLE: I just returned from your gorgeous city; I love that place, man. That is one cool city and there are any number of good people in there on foreign policy. Joe Lieberman, Mark Joe Dodd (ph), he's got, you know...
CARLSON: He's not running.
CARVILLE: But he may.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm David from Lacrosse (ph), Wisconsin. If we're not in a quagmire in Iraq, how do you continue to justify the loss of American life?
CARLSON: Well, I mean, they're really two separate questions. I mean, any loss of American life in an accident -- most of the deaths have been by accident -- or under hostile fire by definition, it's a tragedy. But it doesn't mean that it's not a worthy objective, that is, creating a new and better society in Iraq. I think it is, I think. By bipartisan agreement, it's a good thing.
CARVILLE: Right. A quagmire is defined as having 200,000 troops in a country that don't want you there and the people shoot at you. From the left I'm James Carville. That's CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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