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CNN Crossfire
Is a Liberal TV Network Necessary?
Aired June 19, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, some say there are plenty of voices on the right. Who's left? And are people really crying, "I want my Gore TV?"
And can the House make another tax rest in peace?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Today on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
According to "TIME" magazine, Al Gore thinks the country needs a progressive TV network. Hasn't he turned on a television lately? But before we get to Al Gore's dream, how about a dose of reality? Here comes the best little political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."
The House voted overwhelmingly to repeal permanently the federal estate tax, the hated "death tax." Democratic discipline completely broke down with 41 Democratic House members crossing party lines to vote yes. In contrast, only four Republicans voted no.
There's also a Senate majority for permanent repeal, but a majority won't be enough. Senate budget rules require 60 votes out of 100. So the Democrats probably will be able to prevent permanent repeal of a stupid tax that penalizes accomplishment.
Now, is that smart politics for the Democrats, or isn't it?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Accomplishment, what accomplishment is to sit on your lazy butt and have Aunt Gladys die and give you money? You should pay tax on money that you don't earn. But the way that Bush wants it is that, if you work hard, if you're a waitress and you work your tail off, you pay tax on every nickel you earn, but if you're some lazy bum who happened to inherit a fortune, you don't pay a nickel? That's insane. That's un-American.
NOVAK: I'll tell you what's American about it, Paul. This is a wonderful country. And somebody like you has become a millionaire just by sitting on your butt and giving opinions, and I know you want to leave those millions to your four boys.
BEGALA: I want to pay taxes on what I earn. People who work should pay taxes but people who inherit should, as well.
Brett Kavanaugh is reportedly President Bush's choice for the second highest court in the land. You may not have heard of Mr. Kavanaugh, but he's best known to the heavy breathing set as an author of a rather famous track of pornographic literature. It was called "The Starr Report."
That document, you may recall, was filled with gratuitous and salacious details in order to inflict the maximum possible personal pain on the president, on Monica Lewinsky, on Mrs. Clinton and Chelsea, anyone else who got in the way of Starr and Kavanaugh's prurient -- puritanical agenda.
So I've got an idea for the president. Why not put him straight on the Supreme Court, so Clarence Thomas will have someone he can talk dirty to? Just go right to the top with him.
NOVAK: You have reached a depth in a vile attacks on anything that got in the way of the Clintons. For people who don't know it, Brett Kavanaugh is a very distinguished lawyer in Washington; he's currently a White House aide. I looked at even the most critical pieces about him, people like Dan Amalbank (ph) from the "Washington Post," never mentioned anything about pornography. What he wrote was the reason we should impeach the president.
But Paul, it's good to know what the lunatic wing of the Clinton movement is saying right now about people they don't like.
BEGALA: You could have reported about the president's misbehavior without going into that detail. It was only there to try to humiliate decent people.
NOVAK: You may have thought CROSSFIRE had taken leave of its senses when we interviewed shlockmeister Jerry Springer for our entire program the other day. But respectable Democrats appear, incredibly enough, ready to accept Springer as -- get this -- the Democratic nominee for the U.S. Senate from Ohio next year.
Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle, in 1999, referred to Springer running for the Senate as a joke. But this week Daschle seemed ready to accept the king of TV trash as the party's candidate. The Democratic leader told the Capitol Hill newspaper, "Roll Call," "I'll let the party and people of Ohio decide," end quote.
Maybe Tom Daschle discovered that Jerry Springer may be a sleazeball, but he's also a big liberal.
BEGALA: Jerry Springer's one of the best guests we have ever had on this program. He's smart; he is articulate. And you know, he has a sleazy TV show, but you know what? He's got good ideas for the country, and a whole lot better than some of these Republicans who don't have a sleazy TV show, but have sleazy ideas on how to run our country. NOVAK: Somebody who can comment on the sleazeball programs that he has on, and you think it's fit to be in the U.S. Senate? You need a mental adjustment.
BEGALA: That's for the people to decide. That's what Tom Daschle said.
Well, today's "New York Times" reports that an EPA report intended to be a comprehensive review of environmental issues originally had a detailed discussion of the health risks of global warming. But that section was deleted, not by scientists, not by experts, not even by the EPA, but by political hacks working for President Bush in the White House.
Mr. Bush's hacks replaced the serious science about the risks of climate change with a reference to a study commissioned in part by the oil industry.
Meanwhile, somewhere in hell, Joseph Stalin is smiling. He may be dead, but his propaganda strategies live on.
NOVAK: I didn't think you'd ever played a Stalinist card considering your background, but...
BEGALA: My background? My background, what? As a patriotic American?
NOVAK: As a matter of fact, the people you refer to as hacks are just politicians like you are. As far as a fake scientist saying there's going to be a global change, global warming, have you been a little chilly this spring, Paul? What happened to the global warming this spring?
BEGALA: I'm red-hot angry about the president misleading us again and again about the war, about global climate change, about taxes, about everything. The only thing he never lied about was sex.
NOVAK: You're really obsessed with George W. Bush. But I'll tell you what. You ask ordinary people whether they think there's any global warming in this country, and they'll say, are you kidding?
BEGALA: Coming up, Al Gore demonstrates that while the right- wingers may have been able to steal his election, they can't steal the power of his ideas. "TIME" magazine reports that Mr. Gore is talking about the need for a progressive television network. We'll debate that in a moment.
And later, will Tucker Carlson be eating his shoes, and will Bob Novak join the peace? We'll have the answer later on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
With our radio waves full of right-wing talk and at least one television network dedicated to Republican cranks, what's wrong with letting the voice of the people be heard once in awhile?
Well, on its web site, "TIME" magazine is reporting that Al Gore is quietly sounding out potential backers for, quote "a media enterprise that could challenge the dominance of conservative forces in cable television and talk radio," end quote.
We'll put this idea into the CROSSFIRE with radio talk show host Armstrong Williams and Bob Somerby; he's the editor of dailyhowler.com, a terrific web site that I check every day.
BOB SOMERBY, EDITOR, DAILYHOWLER.COM: Thank you.
NOVAK: Mr. Somerby, I've been in this town for 46 years as a journalist. The place is -- the journalism community is filled with liberals at all levels. It's more liberal than it ever was. You read the editorial pages of the country, they're liberal. The television networks are liberal.
Why do we need -- can you explain why we need an all-liberal, all-Gore network?
SOMERBY: Well, I don't know that we need that, but your description sounds like it is about 40 years back.
You know, the notion of liberal bias when it started it may have been accurate. Teddy White describes the Kennedy press corps singing satirical songs about Nixon on the Kennedy plane. That was 1960.
In the year 2000, those descriptions came off the McCain bus and the Bush plane. And I think it's very clear in terms of the way the Clintons and Gore have been treated, it would help...
NOVAK: I guess you don't talk to people like I do. But forget about talking to them. Today's "New York Times" editorial denounced the execution of the nuclear spies, the Rosenbergs. Isn't that typical of the media mindset in America?
SOMERBY: I'm not reading a lot of editorials about the Rosenbergs. But no...
NOVAK: It's the 50th anniversary today. You ought to know that.
SOMERBY: I would say the notion that the press corps is driven by a liberal bias is just an absurd notion in the present day. It may have been vaguely true 40 years ago. It's the leading propaganda point of the last 50 years. It's never going to be dropped, but it's a ludicrous description of the current press corps.
BEGALA: Armstrong, thank you for coming on.
ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
BEGALA: Let's talk about the market place. If I can borrow that book that you've got right here, the number one book.
WILLIAMS: I got the last copy. BEGALA: ... in America -- really in the world is Hillary Clinton's book, "Living History." It's number one. I checked on Amazon.com before the show. President Bush's book is number 51,637.
Isn't that at least a sign that there is a market for liberal ideas that's being underserved?
WILLIAMS: Well, if Mrs. Bush had a deal with a Monica in the White House, his book would be number one, too. Sleaze sells in this country. People have sex with -- people.
So it's not flattering to Mrs. Clinton.
BEGALA: Where were you when I was telling Ken Starr to stay out of people's private lives? Where the heck were you?
WILLIAMS: Actually, Paul, he was doing his job.
BEGALA: No, it was not his job to go into the private lives and to feed all this right-wing media.
WILLIAMS: You know what? It's easy -- wait a minute. It's easy to blame Ken Starr and everybody else. But doesn't the Clintons have some kind of accountability in this issue? Did he not lie? Did he not lie?
NOVAK: You're getting your Clinton thing for the day.
Mr. Somerby, there's kind of an outpouring of liberal admissions coming out. The very able editor of the "Baltimore Sun," John -- not the "Baltimore Sun," the "Los Angeles Times" John Carroll says that the staff is filled with liberals, and the bias is in their writing.
Andy Rooney of CBS admits he's a liberal.
But here's what I love. Walter Cronkite, who has posed for years as being the objective middle of the road guy, he said this: "I would call myself a liberal, but I hope I don't lose my ability to be dispassionate. I would think I would use reporting to say things with intelligence, as I see it, but not let ideology get in the way ... My first column" -- in August -- "would be setting the record straight and pointing out what is a liberal and explaining why I think most reporters are liberals."
SOMERBY: And how old is Walter Cronkite? I mean, you know...
NOVAK: He's 86.
SOMERBY: Most -- you know...
NOVAK: How old are you?
SOMERBY: The coverage of the last several campaigns has not reflected that thinking, Bob. It's just not the case. Now, are there liberals in the press corps? Of course there are liberals in the press corps. NOVAK: Do you know any conservative reporters? Can you name one?
SOMERBY: I don't know many reporters at all.
NOVAK: I know. I can tell you...
SOMERBY: But if you look at the reporting of the 2000 campaign, it would be absurd to say that the mainstream press corps gave Gore better treatment than Bush. That would be an absurd description.
BEGALA: Let's talk about cable television, Armstrong. All right? Let's look over at our friends at Fox News have Bill O'Reilly. They have Tony Snow, a former Bush aide. They have Brit Hume, a strong conservative. They have John Gibson, who I used to work with, who I know to be conservative.
MSNBC has hired Joe Scarborough, a right-wing congressman, and Dick Armey, a far right-wing congressman, and Michael Savage, who's some kind of right-wing nut ball.
Where's the liberal bias? Isn't that a pronounced conservative bias in cable television?
WILLIAMS: I think -- you just don't want to acknowledge, my brother, is that it's what the marketplace demands.
BEGALA: Sleaze sells, like you said a minute ago, huh? Right- wing sleazeballs?
WILLIAMS: Values. That's the way America is. You're just out of touch, my man. You're not in touch with America. Yes.
BEGALA: Sex sells? Right-ring media. Wait a minute. Hillary's successful, that's sleaze. But when a bunch of right-wing cranks are successful, that's values?
NOVAK: No. I just wondered if you know that this Gore TV idea is making your friend -- you were a roommate of Al Gore, weren't you? It's making him...
SOMERBY: Forty-six years ago.
NOVAK: Making him look foolish, if that's possible. And even more foolish, I mean, if that's possible.
And Lloyd Grove's column in the "Washington Post" today suggested some of the programs for Gore TV. And we're going to put some of them up there. The fashion, look up here. "Earth Tones in the Balance." After school: "Karenna Says the Darndest Things." News and debate, "Recount!" Debate, "Countdown to Recount!" Breaking news, "Recount Showdown!"
These may be programs...
SOMERBY: Bob, you're making my point for me. That is the tone of the way this leading Democratic politician was covered in the 2000 -- that's the tone of the mainstream press corps of today. And that does not reflect liberal bias.
Look at the way Hillary Clinton's book is being trashed all over...
NOVAK: It's a terrible book. That's why.
SOMERBY: ... all over the pundit corps. You haven't read the book.
NOVAK: I have.
SOMERBY: I thought you just got through saying you hadn't.
NOVAK: No, I said I have read it.
SOMERBY: The story is changing up here when the light comes on.
NOVAK: I was just -- he just said something that is a lie. You misunderstood me, and you should apologize. Because I read every -- I suffered.
SOMERBY: You read every word.
WILLIAMS: He said he read the book.
SOMERBY: Fine. Most -- the pundit corps is full of people who've gone on TV and said, "I haven't read the book, but it's terrible." Well, I'm not saying you.
BEGALA: Can we go back to the point that Bob raises about the media coverage? Right? You were screaming about the Clintons before. President Clinton...
WILLIAMS: There's not much to scream about.
BEGALA: Excuse me for talking while you're interrupting. President Clinton did mislead us about his affair. President Bush has misled us about a war, about taxes, about weapons of mass destruction, about social security, and the press lays down and fawns. It's because there's a conservative bias, isn't it?
WILLIAMS: You know, that's your interpretation. Obviously, let me just tell you this. President Bush has won the trust of the American people.
BEGALA: By -- where?
WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. There was a real war that we had to fight. There's a war on terrorism.
BEGALA: We didn't have to fight.
WILLIAMS: We have not had an attack on our soil since 9-11. The fact is you don't like the fact that they trusted George Bush. They did not trust Bill Clinton because Bill Clinton could not trust himself.
BEGALA: You want to defend Bush's statements about the war, about weapons.
NOVAK: After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer has the headlines live from Jerusalem. And then it's "RapidFire," where the questions and answers will come out a whole lot faster than people tuning into Al Gore TV.
And later, we'll ask our audience what they think about the allegedly impartial media. You've got to be kidding.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: It's time for "RapidFire." Quick questions, quick answers. But unlike Al Gore TV, you'll get both sides. In the CROSSFIRE, Bob Somerby, editor of dailyhowler.com, and the famous radio talk show host, Armstrong Williams.
BEGALA: Armstrong, which got more press from the supposedly liberal press, stories about Al Gore wearing earth tones or stories about Dick Cheney selling oil field equipment to our enemies in Iraq, Iran and Libya?
SOMERBY: The first one.
BEGALA: Here's a hint. There were 263 on earth tones, only 10 on Cheney's business dealings. Twenty-six times.
NOVAK: Let him answer, Paul.
WILLIAMS: Well, it's a setup. Obviously, Mr. Cheney got less coverage because the press knew there was nothing there, there was nothing to report. But on Al Gore there was plenty to report.
NOVAK: Bob Somerby, isn't it a fact that the vast majority of the Washington-based correspondents told pollsters that they voted for Al Gore over George W. Bush?
SOMERBY: I haven't seen any such poll, no.
NOVAK: Are you blind or what?
SOMERBY: Where was the poll?
BEGALA: Let's go back through the roster: O'Reilly, Hume, Snow, Gibson, Scarborough, Armey, Savage. Name me one liberal with his own cable radio -- TV show, rather.
WILLIAMS: They tried, it just failed. The marketplace failed them.
BEGALA: Really?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEGALA: Would you say that the people on Gore TV will be as boring as Al Gore is?
SOMERBY: I don't think there's a good answer to that one, Bob. You've kind of left me nowhere to go with that.
I think it would be helpful for the public, if there's more conservative, liberal, mainstream, middle, progressive, libertarian, more discussion. The pundit corps that we have today is extremely monotonal. They all say the same thing. It's a very narrow circle. We need more...
BEGALA: I'm sorry. Why did MSNBC cancel Phil Donahue, a liberal, when he was the number one show? If the marketplace rules? He was the number one show. He was canceled because he's a liberal, that's why they canceled him.
WILLIAMS: Liberal?
BEGALA: Yes.
WILLIAMS: In your estimation.
BEGALA: Phil Donahue?
WILLIAMS: He was out of touch with most of America.
BEGALA: He was number one, they killed him anyway because they're a right-wing corporation. That's why they canceled him.
WILLIAMS: You know what? Whether you like it or not, if you watch NBC, ABC and CBS, for all Americans are watching...
BEGALA: I've seen it.
WILLIAM: ... we've got enough liberal networks in the country. We don't need anymore.
BEGALA: Armstrong Williams, Bob Somerby from the Daily Howler. Thank you all very much for a fun debate.
Time now to ask our studio audience if they think the media has a bias. Get out your devices.
Press one if you think the media have a liberal bias. Press two if you think the media have a conservative bias. Press three if you think the media has no bias. We'll give you the results after the break, along with "Fireback," where one of our viewers wonders if Bob Novak intends to go to lunch with Tucker Carlson to celebrate Hillary selling a million books. You can imagine what would be on the menu for that lunch. Stay with us and we'll tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: It's "Fireback." The answer to our question from the audience, do the media have a bias? Liberal bias, 56%, conservative, 33%, no bias, 11%. BEGALA: Sure. Conservatives have six hour a day on cable, a liberal gets one half of one half hour on one show on one network. That's wrong.
NOVAK: OK. The first "Fireback" is from Ron Boivin of Irvine, California. "Doesn't Al Gore have enough liberal media coverage with guys like Paul Begala slandering the president on a daily basis? I suppose Gore needs his own show because no one else is interested in him."
That's about right, isn't it?
BEGALA: It's sort of nonsensical. Fred O'Neill of Marietta, Ohio, writes, "Personally, I'd like Mr. Gore to run for reelection in 2004. But, in the meantime, I applaud his efforts to provide a progressive media alternative to the endless drivel being put forth by the likes of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Savage, Scarborough, Carlson and Novak."
Bob, you made the list.
NOVAK: That's a hell of a law firm, isn't it? D.G. Butts of Beeville, Texas -- I wonder where that is.
BEGALA: I've been to Beeville.
NOVAK: Writes, "I wonder how many others have noticed that when the liberals and their guests don't have a good argument, they raise their voices and talk over the conservatives."
Yes, D.G., I noticed that, too.
NOVAK: Beeville is the home of some great quail hunting. I've been down there.
No, it's the right-wingers who talk over everybody.
Jennifer Kahn of New York writes, "Bob, will you be joining Tucker for the shoe feast?" That is the celebration of the selling of one million books for Hillary Clinton. "Of course your meal would be 100 percent genuine Italian leather, we know Bob Novak only eats the best!"
NOVAK: Paul, let me tell you something. I don't make predictions. I don't eat shoes. And I don't care how many books Hillary sells.
Question from the audience?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Would this progressive...
NOVAK: Name? Your name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Daniel Peters from Las Crusus (ph), New Mexico. Would this progressive network help to unite the Democratic Party the way the Republican Party seems to be united? NOVAK: Gee, I don't know if it would or not. I think the Democrats are united, they're just wrong.
BEGALA: Well, actually, no, I don't think it's the job of any network to unite a political party. Republicans are united because they have the White House. They have the White House because they stole it. Democrats will win the White House fair and square in a year and a half and then they'll be united.
NOVAK: Question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Chris from Richardson, Texas. So I do agree, it's probably time for a liberal network, but is Al Gore really the best face to represent the left?
NOVAK: Hey, there's a good question. But that's the problem with the left. Who would represent it? My man, Al Sharpton? I think that would be a lot better.
BEGALA: I'll tell you what. Al Gore got more votes than anybody else running for president, got more than George W. Bush ever did. So I mean, he's a pretty popular guy.
What's your name?
NOVAK: Go ahead. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Jen from Bethesda, Maryland. While Gore TV might kind of counter stations like Fox, would it just exacerbate the downfall in the U.S. media away from fair and balanced news coverage towards -- coverage?
NOVAK: Well, you find people on television expressing opinions. I didn't know that. That's shocking, isn't it?
BEGALA: I have to say, I prefer, not just because I work here, but I prefer the CROSSFIRE format where I've got Bob to keep me honest, Bob's got me to keep him honest. You know, if we're going to have one right ring, and we do, we ought to have a liberal network. It would be only fair.
NOVAK: You're not going to leave and go over to the Gore TV, are you?
BEGALA: Depends on how much they pay me. From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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Aired June 19, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, some say there are plenty of voices on the right. Who's left? And are people really crying, "I want my Gore TV?"
And can the House make another tax rest in peace?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Today on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
According to "TIME" magazine, Al Gore thinks the country needs a progressive TV network. Hasn't he turned on a television lately? But before we get to Al Gore's dream, how about a dose of reality? Here comes the best little political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."
The House voted overwhelmingly to repeal permanently the federal estate tax, the hated "death tax." Democratic discipline completely broke down with 41 Democratic House members crossing party lines to vote yes. In contrast, only four Republicans voted no.
There's also a Senate majority for permanent repeal, but a majority won't be enough. Senate budget rules require 60 votes out of 100. So the Democrats probably will be able to prevent permanent repeal of a stupid tax that penalizes accomplishment.
Now, is that smart politics for the Democrats, or isn't it?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Accomplishment, what accomplishment is to sit on your lazy butt and have Aunt Gladys die and give you money? You should pay tax on money that you don't earn. But the way that Bush wants it is that, if you work hard, if you're a waitress and you work your tail off, you pay tax on every nickel you earn, but if you're some lazy bum who happened to inherit a fortune, you don't pay a nickel? That's insane. That's un-American.
NOVAK: I'll tell you what's American about it, Paul. This is a wonderful country. And somebody like you has become a millionaire just by sitting on your butt and giving opinions, and I know you want to leave those millions to your four boys.
BEGALA: I want to pay taxes on what I earn. People who work should pay taxes but people who inherit should, as well.
Brett Kavanaugh is reportedly President Bush's choice for the second highest court in the land. You may not have heard of Mr. Kavanaugh, but he's best known to the heavy breathing set as an author of a rather famous track of pornographic literature. It was called "The Starr Report."
That document, you may recall, was filled with gratuitous and salacious details in order to inflict the maximum possible personal pain on the president, on Monica Lewinsky, on Mrs. Clinton and Chelsea, anyone else who got in the way of Starr and Kavanaugh's prurient -- puritanical agenda.
So I've got an idea for the president. Why not put him straight on the Supreme Court, so Clarence Thomas will have someone he can talk dirty to? Just go right to the top with him.
NOVAK: You have reached a depth in a vile attacks on anything that got in the way of the Clintons. For people who don't know it, Brett Kavanaugh is a very distinguished lawyer in Washington; he's currently a White House aide. I looked at even the most critical pieces about him, people like Dan Amalbank (ph) from the "Washington Post," never mentioned anything about pornography. What he wrote was the reason we should impeach the president.
But Paul, it's good to know what the lunatic wing of the Clinton movement is saying right now about people they don't like.
BEGALA: You could have reported about the president's misbehavior without going into that detail. It was only there to try to humiliate decent people.
NOVAK: You may have thought CROSSFIRE had taken leave of its senses when we interviewed shlockmeister Jerry Springer for our entire program the other day. But respectable Democrats appear, incredibly enough, ready to accept Springer as -- get this -- the Democratic nominee for the U.S. Senate from Ohio next year.
Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle, in 1999, referred to Springer running for the Senate as a joke. But this week Daschle seemed ready to accept the king of TV trash as the party's candidate. The Democratic leader told the Capitol Hill newspaper, "Roll Call," "I'll let the party and people of Ohio decide," end quote.
Maybe Tom Daschle discovered that Jerry Springer may be a sleazeball, but he's also a big liberal.
BEGALA: Jerry Springer's one of the best guests we have ever had on this program. He's smart; he is articulate. And you know, he has a sleazy TV show, but you know what? He's got good ideas for the country, and a whole lot better than some of these Republicans who don't have a sleazy TV show, but have sleazy ideas on how to run our country. NOVAK: Somebody who can comment on the sleazeball programs that he has on, and you think it's fit to be in the U.S. Senate? You need a mental adjustment.
BEGALA: That's for the people to decide. That's what Tom Daschle said.
Well, today's "New York Times" reports that an EPA report intended to be a comprehensive review of environmental issues originally had a detailed discussion of the health risks of global warming. But that section was deleted, not by scientists, not by experts, not even by the EPA, but by political hacks working for President Bush in the White House.
Mr. Bush's hacks replaced the serious science about the risks of climate change with a reference to a study commissioned in part by the oil industry.
Meanwhile, somewhere in hell, Joseph Stalin is smiling. He may be dead, but his propaganda strategies live on.
NOVAK: I didn't think you'd ever played a Stalinist card considering your background, but...
BEGALA: My background? My background, what? As a patriotic American?
NOVAK: As a matter of fact, the people you refer to as hacks are just politicians like you are. As far as a fake scientist saying there's going to be a global change, global warming, have you been a little chilly this spring, Paul? What happened to the global warming this spring?
BEGALA: I'm red-hot angry about the president misleading us again and again about the war, about global climate change, about taxes, about everything. The only thing he never lied about was sex.
NOVAK: You're really obsessed with George W. Bush. But I'll tell you what. You ask ordinary people whether they think there's any global warming in this country, and they'll say, are you kidding?
BEGALA: Coming up, Al Gore demonstrates that while the right- wingers may have been able to steal his election, they can't steal the power of his ideas. "TIME" magazine reports that Mr. Gore is talking about the need for a progressive television network. We'll debate that in a moment.
And later, will Tucker Carlson be eating his shoes, and will Bob Novak join the peace? We'll have the answer later on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
With our radio waves full of right-wing talk and at least one television network dedicated to Republican cranks, what's wrong with letting the voice of the people be heard once in awhile?
Well, on its web site, "TIME" magazine is reporting that Al Gore is quietly sounding out potential backers for, quote "a media enterprise that could challenge the dominance of conservative forces in cable television and talk radio," end quote.
We'll put this idea into the CROSSFIRE with radio talk show host Armstrong Williams and Bob Somerby; he's the editor of dailyhowler.com, a terrific web site that I check every day.
BOB SOMERBY, EDITOR, DAILYHOWLER.COM: Thank you.
NOVAK: Mr. Somerby, I've been in this town for 46 years as a journalist. The place is -- the journalism community is filled with liberals at all levels. It's more liberal than it ever was. You read the editorial pages of the country, they're liberal. The television networks are liberal.
Why do we need -- can you explain why we need an all-liberal, all-Gore network?
SOMERBY: Well, I don't know that we need that, but your description sounds like it is about 40 years back.
You know, the notion of liberal bias when it started it may have been accurate. Teddy White describes the Kennedy press corps singing satirical songs about Nixon on the Kennedy plane. That was 1960.
In the year 2000, those descriptions came off the McCain bus and the Bush plane. And I think it's very clear in terms of the way the Clintons and Gore have been treated, it would help...
NOVAK: I guess you don't talk to people like I do. But forget about talking to them. Today's "New York Times" editorial denounced the execution of the nuclear spies, the Rosenbergs. Isn't that typical of the media mindset in America?
SOMERBY: I'm not reading a lot of editorials about the Rosenbergs. But no...
NOVAK: It's the 50th anniversary today. You ought to know that.
SOMERBY: I would say the notion that the press corps is driven by a liberal bias is just an absurd notion in the present day. It may have been vaguely true 40 years ago. It's the leading propaganda point of the last 50 years. It's never going to be dropped, but it's a ludicrous description of the current press corps.
BEGALA: Armstrong, thank you for coming on.
ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
BEGALA: Let's talk about the market place. If I can borrow that book that you've got right here, the number one book.
WILLIAMS: I got the last copy. BEGALA: ... in America -- really in the world is Hillary Clinton's book, "Living History." It's number one. I checked on Amazon.com before the show. President Bush's book is number 51,637.
Isn't that at least a sign that there is a market for liberal ideas that's being underserved?
WILLIAMS: Well, if Mrs. Bush had a deal with a Monica in the White House, his book would be number one, too. Sleaze sells in this country. People have sex with -- people.
So it's not flattering to Mrs. Clinton.
BEGALA: Where were you when I was telling Ken Starr to stay out of people's private lives? Where the heck were you?
WILLIAMS: Actually, Paul, he was doing his job.
BEGALA: No, it was not his job to go into the private lives and to feed all this right-wing media.
WILLIAMS: You know what? It's easy -- wait a minute. It's easy to blame Ken Starr and everybody else. But doesn't the Clintons have some kind of accountability in this issue? Did he not lie? Did he not lie?
NOVAK: You're getting your Clinton thing for the day.
Mr. Somerby, there's kind of an outpouring of liberal admissions coming out. The very able editor of the "Baltimore Sun," John -- not the "Baltimore Sun," the "Los Angeles Times" John Carroll says that the staff is filled with liberals, and the bias is in their writing.
Andy Rooney of CBS admits he's a liberal.
But here's what I love. Walter Cronkite, who has posed for years as being the objective middle of the road guy, he said this: "I would call myself a liberal, but I hope I don't lose my ability to be dispassionate. I would think I would use reporting to say things with intelligence, as I see it, but not let ideology get in the way ... My first column" -- in August -- "would be setting the record straight and pointing out what is a liberal and explaining why I think most reporters are liberals."
SOMERBY: And how old is Walter Cronkite? I mean, you know...
NOVAK: He's 86.
SOMERBY: Most -- you know...
NOVAK: How old are you?
SOMERBY: The coverage of the last several campaigns has not reflected that thinking, Bob. It's just not the case. Now, are there liberals in the press corps? Of course there are liberals in the press corps. NOVAK: Do you know any conservative reporters? Can you name one?
SOMERBY: I don't know many reporters at all.
NOVAK: I know. I can tell you...
SOMERBY: But if you look at the reporting of the 2000 campaign, it would be absurd to say that the mainstream press corps gave Gore better treatment than Bush. That would be an absurd description.
BEGALA: Let's talk about cable television, Armstrong. All right? Let's look over at our friends at Fox News have Bill O'Reilly. They have Tony Snow, a former Bush aide. They have Brit Hume, a strong conservative. They have John Gibson, who I used to work with, who I know to be conservative.
MSNBC has hired Joe Scarborough, a right-wing congressman, and Dick Armey, a far right-wing congressman, and Michael Savage, who's some kind of right-wing nut ball.
Where's the liberal bias? Isn't that a pronounced conservative bias in cable television?
WILLIAMS: I think -- you just don't want to acknowledge, my brother, is that it's what the marketplace demands.
BEGALA: Sleaze sells, like you said a minute ago, huh? Right- wing sleazeballs?
WILLIAMS: Values. That's the way America is. You're just out of touch, my man. You're not in touch with America. Yes.
BEGALA: Sex sells? Right-ring media. Wait a minute. Hillary's successful, that's sleaze. But when a bunch of right-wing cranks are successful, that's values?
NOVAK: No. I just wondered if you know that this Gore TV idea is making your friend -- you were a roommate of Al Gore, weren't you? It's making him...
SOMERBY: Forty-six years ago.
NOVAK: Making him look foolish, if that's possible. And even more foolish, I mean, if that's possible.
And Lloyd Grove's column in the "Washington Post" today suggested some of the programs for Gore TV. And we're going to put some of them up there. The fashion, look up here. "Earth Tones in the Balance." After school: "Karenna Says the Darndest Things." News and debate, "Recount!" Debate, "Countdown to Recount!" Breaking news, "Recount Showdown!"
These may be programs...
SOMERBY: Bob, you're making my point for me. That is the tone of the way this leading Democratic politician was covered in the 2000 -- that's the tone of the mainstream press corps of today. And that does not reflect liberal bias.
Look at the way Hillary Clinton's book is being trashed all over...
NOVAK: It's a terrible book. That's why.
SOMERBY: ... all over the pundit corps. You haven't read the book.
NOVAK: I have.
SOMERBY: I thought you just got through saying you hadn't.
NOVAK: No, I said I have read it.
SOMERBY: The story is changing up here when the light comes on.
NOVAK: I was just -- he just said something that is a lie. You misunderstood me, and you should apologize. Because I read every -- I suffered.
SOMERBY: You read every word.
WILLIAMS: He said he read the book.
SOMERBY: Fine. Most -- the pundit corps is full of people who've gone on TV and said, "I haven't read the book, but it's terrible." Well, I'm not saying you.
BEGALA: Can we go back to the point that Bob raises about the media coverage? Right? You were screaming about the Clintons before. President Clinton...
WILLIAMS: There's not much to scream about.
BEGALA: Excuse me for talking while you're interrupting. President Clinton did mislead us about his affair. President Bush has misled us about a war, about taxes, about weapons of mass destruction, about social security, and the press lays down and fawns. It's because there's a conservative bias, isn't it?
WILLIAMS: You know, that's your interpretation. Obviously, let me just tell you this. President Bush has won the trust of the American people.
BEGALA: By -- where?
WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. There was a real war that we had to fight. There's a war on terrorism.
BEGALA: We didn't have to fight.
WILLIAMS: We have not had an attack on our soil since 9-11. The fact is you don't like the fact that they trusted George Bush. They did not trust Bill Clinton because Bill Clinton could not trust himself.
BEGALA: You want to defend Bush's statements about the war, about weapons.
NOVAK: After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer has the headlines live from Jerusalem. And then it's "RapidFire," where the questions and answers will come out a whole lot faster than people tuning into Al Gore TV.
And later, we'll ask our audience what they think about the allegedly impartial media. You've got to be kidding.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: It's time for "RapidFire." Quick questions, quick answers. But unlike Al Gore TV, you'll get both sides. In the CROSSFIRE, Bob Somerby, editor of dailyhowler.com, and the famous radio talk show host, Armstrong Williams.
BEGALA: Armstrong, which got more press from the supposedly liberal press, stories about Al Gore wearing earth tones or stories about Dick Cheney selling oil field equipment to our enemies in Iraq, Iran and Libya?
SOMERBY: The first one.
BEGALA: Here's a hint. There were 263 on earth tones, only 10 on Cheney's business dealings. Twenty-six times.
NOVAK: Let him answer, Paul.
WILLIAMS: Well, it's a setup. Obviously, Mr. Cheney got less coverage because the press knew there was nothing there, there was nothing to report. But on Al Gore there was plenty to report.
NOVAK: Bob Somerby, isn't it a fact that the vast majority of the Washington-based correspondents told pollsters that they voted for Al Gore over George W. Bush?
SOMERBY: I haven't seen any such poll, no.
NOVAK: Are you blind or what?
SOMERBY: Where was the poll?
BEGALA: Let's go back through the roster: O'Reilly, Hume, Snow, Gibson, Scarborough, Armey, Savage. Name me one liberal with his own cable radio -- TV show, rather.
WILLIAMS: They tried, it just failed. The marketplace failed them.
BEGALA: Really?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEGALA: Would you say that the people on Gore TV will be as boring as Al Gore is?
SOMERBY: I don't think there's a good answer to that one, Bob. You've kind of left me nowhere to go with that.
I think it would be helpful for the public, if there's more conservative, liberal, mainstream, middle, progressive, libertarian, more discussion. The pundit corps that we have today is extremely monotonal. They all say the same thing. It's a very narrow circle. We need more...
BEGALA: I'm sorry. Why did MSNBC cancel Phil Donahue, a liberal, when he was the number one show? If the marketplace rules? He was the number one show. He was canceled because he's a liberal, that's why they canceled him.
WILLIAMS: Liberal?
BEGALA: Yes.
WILLIAMS: In your estimation.
BEGALA: Phil Donahue?
WILLIAMS: He was out of touch with most of America.
BEGALA: He was number one, they killed him anyway because they're a right-wing corporation. That's why they canceled him.
WILLIAMS: You know what? Whether you like it or not, if you watch NBC, ABC and CBS, for all Americans are watching...
BEGALA: I've seen it.
WILLIAM: ... we've got enough liberal networks in the country. We don't need anymore.
BEGALA: Armstrong Williams, Bob Somerby from the Daily Howler. Thank you all very much for a fun debate.
Time now to ask our studio audience if they think the media has a bias. Get out your devices.
Press one if you think the media have a liberal bias. Press two if you think the media have a conservative bias. Press three if you think the media has no bias. We'll give you the results after the break, along with "Fireback," where one of our viewers wonders if Bob Novak intends to go to lunch with Tucker Carlson to celebrate Hillary selling a million books. You can imagine what would be on the menu for that lunch. Stay with us and we'll tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: It's "Fireback." The answer to our question from the audience, do the media have a bias? Liberal bias, 56%, conservative, 33%, no bias, 11%. BEGALA: Sure. Conservatives have six hour a day on cable, a liberal gets one half of one half hour on one show on one network. That's wrong.
NOVAK: OK. The first "Fireback" is from Ron Boivin of Irvine, California. "Doesn't Al Gore have enough liberal media coverage with guys like Paul Begala slandering the president on a daily basis? I suppose Gore needs his own show because no one else is interested in him."
That's about right, isn't it?
BEGALA: It's sort of nonsensical. Fred O'Neill of Marietta, Ohio, writes, "Personally, I'd like Mr. Gore to run for reelection in 2004. But, in the meantime, I applaud his efforts to provide a progressive media alternative to the endless drivel being put forth by the likes of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Savage, Scarborough, Carlson and Novak."
Bob, you made the list.
NOVAK: That's a hell of a law firm, isn't it? D.G. Butts of Beeville, Texas -- I wonder where that is.
BEGALA: I've been to Beeville.
NOVAK: Writes, "I wonder how many others have noticed that when the liberals and their guests don't have a good argument, they raise their voices and talk over the conservatives."
Yes, D.G., I noticed that, too.
NOVAK: Beeville is the home of some great quail hunting. I've been down there.
No, it's the right-wingers who talk over everybody.
Jennifer Kahn of New York writes, "Bob, will you be joining Tucker for the shoe feast?" That is the celebration of the selling of one million books for Hillary Clinton. "Of course your meal would be 100 percent genuine Italian leather, we know Bob Novak only eats the best!"
NOVAK: Paul, let me tell you something. I don't make predictions. I don't eat shoes. And I don't care how many books Hillary sells.
Question from the audience?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Would this progressive...
NOVAK: Name? Your name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Daniel Peters from Las Crusus (ph), New Mexico. Would this progressive network help to unite the Democratic Party the way the Republican Party seems to be united? NOVAK: Gee, I don't know if it would or not. I think the Democrats are united, they're just wrong.
BEGALA: Well, actually, no, I don't think it's the job of any network to unite a political party. Republicans are united because they have the White House. They have the White House because they stole it. Democrats will win the White House fair and square in a year and a half and then they'll be united.
NOVAK: Question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Chris from Richardson, Texas. So I do agree, it's probably time for a liberal network, but is Al Gore really the best face to represent the left?
NOVAK: Hey, there's a good question. But that's the problem with the left. Who would represent it? My man, Al Sharpton? I think that would be a lot better.
BEGALA: I'll tell you what. Al Gore got more votes than anybody else running for president, got more than George W. Bush ever did. So I mean, he's a pretty popular guy.
What's your name?
NOVAK: Go ahead. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Jen from Bethesda, Maryland. While Gore TV might kind of counter stations like Fox, would it just exacerbate the downfall in the U.S. media away from fair and balanced news coverage towards -- coverage?
NOVAK: Well, you find people on television expressing opinions. I didn't know that. That's shocking, isn't it?
BEGALA: I have to say, I prefer, not just because I work here, but I prefer the CROSSFIRE format where I've got Bob to keep me honest, Bob's got me to keep him honest. You know, if we're going to have one right ring, and we do, we ought to have a liberal network. It would be only fair.
NOVAK: You're not going to leave and go over to the Gore TV, are you?
BEGALA: Depends on how much they pay me. From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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