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CNN Crossfire

Interview with Tony Blankley, Tony Coelho

Aired July 03, 2003 - 16:30 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.

On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.

On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE:

From peacekeeping in Africa to insurgence in Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The answer is, "Bring them on."

ANNOUNCER: And from battles on Capitol Hill to an insurgency on the left.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a grass-roots rejection of George Bush.

ANNOUNCER: Stand by for some pre-Fourth of July political fireworks.

Plus, guess whose book is a hit in France?

Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live, from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Another 10 Americans soldiers were wounded today in Iraq. Meanwhile, the Bush administration leans closer to sending U.S. troops to yet another trouble spot, Liberia.

And here at home, the new unemployment rate is out. It is bad news for the millions of Americans who have lost their jobs. But will it mean George W. Bush will soon lose his?

We will debate all of this and more in a few minutes. But first, the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."

The Labor Department announced today that unemployment has reached a nine-year high of 6.4 percent; 9.4 million Americans in all are out of work. And the percentage of unemployed people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits is near an all-time high.

President George W. Bush, of course, had promised us that his tax cuts for the rich would spur economic growth. But with 3.2 million Americans who had jobs under President Clinton now unemployed under President Bush, the question is, Is this particularly upsetting for Mr. Bush because he inherited the strongest job market in history from Clinton? I don't know. I thought if Mr. Bush would be good at anything, it would be at inheriting things. But, you know, I....

ROBERT NOVAK, CNN CO-HOST: You know, Paul, the sad part about the Democratic Party is that all you can do is hope and wait that things get worse. You go to bed every night saying, "I hope more of my fellow Americans get thrown out of work so I can elect a Democrat," because that's the only chance you got is bad economic news.

BEGALA: But I'm holding him accountable. I hope George W. Bush gets thrown out of work so 3 million Americans who he's thrown out of work can get their jobs back. We've got Democrats -- ready to take off.

NOVAK: That's a cute pay of putting it, Paul. But the fact of the matter is, when a political party only relies on bad news, it's in trouble.

Expectations are that President Bush will order 500 to 1,000 peacekeeping troops to Liberia. The former governor of the People's Republic of Vermont Howard Dean, never to be outdone in seeking a headline in his race for the Democratic presidential nomination, now has called for 2,000 troops to Liberia.

Two thousand happens to be exactly the number called for by the Europeans. When the Europeans said no Americans troops to Iraq, dr. Dean said no. When the Europeans said 2,000 troops to Liberia, Dr. Dean said 2,000. Does he think he's really running for president of France?

BEGALA: Well, no. The question is, who's better to manage the alliance, right? When President Clinton was in office, the Europeans held with us. We went to war in Kosovo and won the war and had support from Europe. We went to war in Iraq and won the war with no help, but now in the occupation, almost every troop over there, 150,000 of them are Americans. We don't see French boys standing up to these suicide bombers. We don't see German boys. We don't see Italian boys.

NOVAK: Can I interrupt?

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Can I interrupt your tirade with my position?

BEGALA: Just explaining how foreign policy works.

NOVAK: Because I would say something else. I was talking about Howard Dean, and I was saying that it's very interesting that he does whatever the Europeans want.

BEGALA: I'd say it's important to have the Europeans with us.

Well, Bob Riley, the conservative Republican governor of Alabama, is pushing for an increase in taxes on big corporations and a big tax cut for the poor. Currently, poor people in Alabama pay nearly 11 percent of their incomes in taxes, while the rich pay just 4.1 percent.

So why this populist approach from this conservative Republican? Two words: Jesus Christ. A devout Christian, Governor Riley says -- and I quote the governor here -- quote -- "I spent a lot of time studying the New Testament. It has three philosophies: love God, love each other, and take care of the least among you. I don't think anyone can justify putting an income tax on someone who makes only $4,600 a year." -- unquote.

Amen, Brother Riley. Whom would Jesus tax? The rich or the poor? God bless Bob Riley.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, you got those figures out of "The New York Times" story. I never trust a "New York Times" story. Sometimes they make up things, as you know.

BEGALA: That's a shot. That's a cheap shot.

NOVAK: No, let me tell you...

BEGALA: That's a cheap shot.

NOVAK: Can I talk while you're interrupting, please?

If it is true, that those figures are accurate, which I don't know -- you may be surprised to know I'd probably agree with you. Those -- you shouldn't tax people making $4,600 a year. And I think you shouldn't let the lumber companies go scott-free, and I like Bob Riley and I think he's probably got a point.

BEGALA: Amen. God bless you. I would agree with you.

NOVAK: While millions of Americans boycott an unfriendly France, the junior senator from New York, that's Hillary Rodham Clinton, was there in France yesterday. She was flaking the French translation of her book and was interviewed by none other than the wife of French President Jacques Chirac, who was the arch critic of America.

Madame Chirac was some interviewer. She endorsed Senator Clinton for president of the United States. She said -- quote -- "there are a lot of women who hope one day she'll run for the presidency of the United States and that she'll win" -- endquote.

I wonder now whether Hillary is off to Germany, China and Syria and other anti-American countries. But alas, on the 4th of July, tomorrow, she'll be in England, where some people actually like us.

BEGALA: Well, no, shame on you for lumping the French in with the Chinese, the Syrians, other enemies of America. We wouldn't be a country the on 4th of July if it hadn't been for the French, who were our allies then. George W. Bush drove them away the way he drove away the rest of the civilized world. I say again, our occupation in Iraq would not be so bloody for so many American families if foreign troops were patrolling Iraq as well as American troops.

NOVAK: Well, you've made that point once or twice. I hope I don't have to hear it four more times tonight.

But I would say this to you, Paul: 200 years ago, when they were helping us, we were fighting the English. Things do actually change.

In a minute, the trials and tribulations of being policemen and nanny for the world. Can't anybody else clean up this mess -- their own mess?.

And guess who's moving ahead for the Democratic presidential nomination? Could it be the little doctor from Vermont? We'll fill you in and debate whether this means doom for Paul Begala's Democrats.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: When the Founding Fathers were preparing to adopt the Declaration of Independence 227 years ago, they could not have imagined that someday their descendants would be shouldering the burdens of being policeman for the world. It's a tough job, and I guess somebody has to do it. But should that somebody really be Howard Dean?

In the CROSSFIRE this 3rd of July, Democratic strategist, former Congressional leader, Tony Coelho. And the editorial page editor of "The Washington Times," Tony Blankley.

BEGALA: Guys, thank you both for joining us.

Tony, yesterday, our president was in the Roosevelt Room, standing under a heroic portrait of Theodore Roosevelt, a room where the -- Roosevelt's Nobel Prize used to be. And he made a statement that's caused some controversy. Let me play that statement, and then another comment and ask you to respond.

Here's the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: There are some who feel like that if they attack us, that we may decide to leave prematurely. They don't understand what they're talking about if that's the case. Let me finish. There are some who feel like, you know, the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is, "Bring them on."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: That statement has caused a lot of controversy.

Let me read you one response from a woman Joanne Miller (ph). She wrote to CROSSFIRE and this is what she says: "As the wife of a soldier, I find bush's remarks yesterday, 'Bring it on,' most distressing. Not only was it insulting to our servicemen and women, but a clear invitation to take more shots at them. Once again, Mr. Bush proves how insensitive he really is."

Isn't it juvenile at best for the president of the president of the United States to invite the enemy to kill our troops?

TONY BLANKLEY, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: No, and it's juvenile to take a shot at the president. I was interested -- Gephardt says it was phony macho.

BEGALA: But how about Mrs. Miller, whose husband....

BLANKLEY: I don't Mrs. Miller, this person you've conjured up out of the ether.

BEGALA: Well no, you're not accusing me of making stuff up?

BLANKLEY: I have no idea. I know...

BEGALA: Really?

NOVAK: Do you know Mrs. Miller?

BEGALA: Really?

BLANKLEY: I know what the Democratic candidate for president Dick Gephardt said. He was it was phony machoism. I think it's sort of pathetic that the best the Democrats can come up with is to accuse the president of being too virile.

But the truth is...

BEGALA: No, too purile (ph). Too juvenile.

BLANKLEY: No, virile.

BEGALA: Too infantile.

BLANKLEY: Virile.

BEGALA: No.

BLANKLEY: Let me tell you what the reality is. The reality is that we are in there for the long haul, as the president said -- that one of the reasons that we're there is to deflect the terrorist attacks. Right now, I'm going to be writing an article, by the way, in the paper in a few days pointing out that the people coming at our soldiers right now are a combination of the Baathist remnants, of Wahabi terrorists and of Iranian terrorists. We're engaging them -- our soldiers are engaging them in the field right now, and they need to come out and we need to get them so we can get on with the process.

NOVAK: Tony Coelho, there has been, since the end of the official hostilities, less than 30 American troops killed by hostile action. I grieve for them. I really do. But that is not a high level. And the Gallup Poll for CNN and "USA Today" has just taken a poll. We'll put it up on the screen.

Number of U.S. deaths in Iraq since major fighting ended: "Unacceptably high, 24 percent; Expected given the danger in Iraq, 74 percent." This is not a political issue, is it?

TONY COELHO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: For the 26 families that have had their young sons or daughters come home in coffins, it's a big issue. And for the president of the United States to say, "Bring them on," and let's have more young people come home in coffins, is despicable. I think that's what is upsetting.

(CROSSTALK)

COEHLO: It's unsensitive. It's upsetting.

And let me just tell you, Bob, about what is really worse is that this isn't speaking just to the right-wing of the United States. This is the president of the United States speaking to the world community.

(CROSSTALK)

BLANKLEY: That is not a fair statement. I don't believe if I put you on a polygraph you believe that the president wants to send more men home in coffins. I think you understand that it was phrased and talked about engaging the enemy and getting the job done. And that kind of insincere attacks -- there are good ways to attack the president, and there are insincere and bad a ways. And that's one of the bad ways.

COEHLO: You don't have to tell me how to attack the president. I've been doing it for years.

BLANKLEY: I know you have, and you're in the minority.

COEHLO: And I know when somebody's doing something wrong, and this was a despicable statement. It was wrong, and people know it's wrong.

BEGALA: Let me be, I hope, unfair to you in a way and quote back to you your own words.

BLANKLEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

BEGALA: No, seriously, I've said this before in public and I'm not patronizing you. Your editorial page of "The Washington Times," a right-wing paper, is consistently more interesting since you took it over, than "The Washington Post," you're more liberal, larger rivals. One of the things you wrote last week I want to ask you about now in light of the president's statement. You wrote last week that the president "should go and meet the families of soldiers killed over there in Iraq. He hasn't done so. He hasn't attended any of the funerals."

There have been 68 total deaths since he stood and boasted on that aircraft carrier that the mission was accomplished. What does it say about our president that he'll fly to an aircraft carrier and brag but won't go to the funeral of a serviceman?

BLANKLEY: Yes. I wrote a column last week where I said I thought that there were two ways for the president to deal with the continuing deaths in Iraq. One was kind of rhetorically minimize it. The other was to embrace it because it's an important thing. The deaths are noble. They're part was war on terrorism, and they're necessary to protect American lives. And I thought it was necessary for him to engage that issue. I was encouraged when he went out yesterday, and I think for the first...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He might never have said yesterday if he had been to the funeral of a man who was killed over there, would he, Tony?

COEHLO: Yes.

BLANKLEY: Let me just finish.

NOVAK: All right.

BLANKLEY: I think he took the right first step in talking about the importance of the fight, and my bet is, he will be visiting those (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NOVAK: All right, Tony Coehlo, take off your advocate's hat and put on your analyst's hat. There was a poll taken of Iowa caucus voters -- 2,000 voters. Big poll -- June 16 to 24, and this was before we knew that Dr. Dean had this -- all this money raised. Look at this result. Gephardt, who was supposed to be way ahead, 21 percent. Dean, 20 percent.

We're looking at Dean moving toward a win in Iowa, which will give him the win in New Hampshire and then it's all the way to Boston, isn't it?

COEHLO: That really frightens you, doesn't it? You love it, don't you?

NOVAK: What do you think? Just analytically.

COEHLO: I think analytically that right now that Dean is the flavor of the month. And we'll see in the next two months whether or not he can withstand the scrutiny. He's been permitted to get away with having a temper. He's been permitted to getting away...

NOVAK: Temper's bad?

COEHLO: Well, temper is bad when you pop off....

NOVAK: Nixon, Johnson....

COEHLO: ...when you pop off...

NOVAK: Clinton.

COEHLO: And how you have a problem with it. And so we'll see how he does. I hope he does well. I think it's great that he's dominating the news today. I think it's great for the Democratic Party that we're dominating the news through him.

So I'm not negative about this. I think it's great. But I want to see how he does over the next two months with scrutiny.

NOVAK: But you admit, he's the flavor?

COEHLO: He's the flavor. Absolutely.

BEGALA: The other thing that's dominating the news, particularly today is unemployment. The unemployment report out today, 6.4 percent. Isn't it impossible for Mr. Bush to argue that he's been a competent economic steward when 3 millions Americans who had jobs under Clinton have lost them under Bush?

BLANKLEY: Look, I've been editorializing for the last year that I've been at the paper that I said I'm concerned about the economy. It's weaker. I do not trust the consensus predictions that have consistently been wrong, and they continue to be wrong today. They said 6.2, it ended up being 6.4.

And the thing that disconcerts me the most, and we'll see that in my editorial tomorrow, is not just the fact that the people are out of work, which is a big deal, but the fact that neither party has any policy prescriptions left. We've after we reduced interest rates, the feds reduced it down from 6 down to 1 percent. We've cut taxes. We've had stimulus of fiscal policy shifting from a budget surplus to a big-budget deficit. And neither party -- I mean, no one is proposing what else we can do.

And my concern is that we would now don't have anything left to do other than sit and wait. And that worries me more as a citizen than as a politician. But the fact is that it's disconcerting when even the Democrats, the alternative party, don't really have a proposal. Because nobody knows what to do. We're coming on the outside of the bubble, and it's spooky.

BEGALA: Hold that thought. Tony Blankley, Tony Coehlo, we're going to be right back.

And when we return, we'll get a check of the hour's top stories. There's some breaking news you should know about. Find out what President Bush has decided about trials for some of the suspects in the war on terrorism. And we'll come back here for "RapidFire." where the questions and answers come faster than firecrackers going off on the 4th of July.

And our "Fireback" segment where our viewers will toss a view verbal cherry bombs of their own at our president's public bragging.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

Martin, thank you for that update. Time now nor "RapidFire," where there are only two kind of guests, the quick and the dead. Our guest tonight are very quick, they are Tony Blankley, editorial page editor of "The Washington Times," and Democratic strategist, former California congressman, Tony Coelho.

NOVAK: Mr. Coelho, Senator Martin Frost of Texas -- Democrat of Texas, says that Howard Dean has the appearance of being another George McGovern.

Agree or disagree?

COELHO: Disagree.

BEGALA: Tony Coelho, was it appropriate for -- Tony Blankley, forgive me, to put special interest campaign money while troops are dying in Iraq?

BLANKLEY: Yes. Both parties are raising money. That's the American political system.

NOVAK: What are the odds of Howard Dean against George W. Bush winning?

COELHO: George W. Bush will lose.

NOVAK: What are the odds?

COELHO: He will lose.

BEGALA: As we engage under President Bush in nation-believe in Iraq and perhaps in Liberia, in retrospect, do you think it was wrong for then Governor Bush to disparage national building as a candidate for the presidency?

BLANKLEY: In the same way that President Clinton when he ran as Governor Clinton, condemned engaging China in foreign policy, yes, usually governors who run for president despise foreign policy and then they get into office and find out they have to govern the world. Every governor getting elected president did it. Clinton, Bush is doing it. I'm glad they learned those lessons early on.

NOVAK: Mr. Coelho, the Democrats have been very mean to Ralph Nader, and as result, it looks like he may run again. Is it time to be nice to Ralph Nader?

COELHO: No.

BEGALA: Amen. Mr. Blankley, a new report out this week says homeland security is dangerously underfunded.

Do you think the Republicans have a problem when they put $1 trillion in the tax cuts and $27 billion in the first responders for terrorism?

BLANKLEY: Next Tuesday we're going to have an editorial page and op-ed covering entirely this topic. Yes, vast underfunding both from Congress, Democrats and Republicans and from the White House. We need to spend a lot more money in a higher sense of urgency.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Tony Blankley, thank you very much. Tony Coelho, thank you.

It's time to see how well our audience, our studio audiences knows our national holidays.

Take out your voting devices, folks, and tell us, when did July 4th become a federal holiday. Press 1 if you think it was 1789. Press 2 if you think the 4th of July didn't become a federal holiday until 1876. And press 3 if you think it happened way -- just the other day, in 1941. We'll have the results after the break.

And in "Fireback," one of you has a suggestion about what should happen if Hillary Clinton sells 1 million books and goes far beyond Tucker eating his shoes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

I hope you home have cast your vote on our trivia question. Sets see how our studio audience did.

The question was when did 4th of July become a federal legal holiday?

1789 20 percent said. Half the audience said it was 1876, but only 29 percent of the audience got it right. It was actually 1941.

NOVAK: You got it right and I got it wrong. First time I've ever been wrong and you've been right.

BEGALA: Speaking of 4th of July, tomorrow, Thomas Jefferson will be right here, the author of the Declaration of Independence 227 years ago, well, an actor and historian who plays him. See, he's a fascinating guy. I've met him. He's terrific.

NOVAK: OK. Rob Hull of Vancouver, British Columbia, says, "I think that President Bush's comments were tough, as they should be. Paul and all the 'lefties,' are going to criticize everything that Bush says. It's too bad they are more worried about Bush's comments and landing on air craft carriers than anything of substance. Rob, you're my kind of Canadian.

BEGALA: With all respect to Mr. Hull, there are no Canadian boys being killed over there. And for our president who is standing up and saying "bring them on," by the way, when he was AWOL from the national guard they didn't bring it on for him to fight for our country.

NOVAK: He was not AWOL. He was not AWOL.

BEGALA: He was AWOL.

NOVAK: And that is a liable. I may file suit. I may file suit against you.

BEGALA: AWOL, AWOL, AWOL for a year from his National Guard unit.

NOVAK: You can shout it but isn't true.

BEGALA: Mike Fogarty of Chicago, Illinois writes, "'Bring them on?' What is Mr. Bush thinking? He is awfully brave when other peoples' lives are on the line. I am happy he will be joining the long unemployment line next November."

NOVAK: OK. Next is Dan from Tennessee.

"Now I know where the Iraqi's learned how to be so anti-American. They got a hold of the Democratic party handbook."

BEGALA: Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something, Dan in Tennessee. This country was built on democracy. Criticizing this government is the most patriotic thing you can do. and I am a patriotic.

NOVAK: Last (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of a scoundral...

BEGALA: No, blind sucking up to power scoundrel. I'll stand up for democracy.

Tom Gorgey of Magnolia, Arkansas writes, "A modest proposal: Instead of killing an innocent shoe. Tucker should be required to read Hillary's book three items, aloud, to Bob Novak. Or would that be cruel and unusual punishment?"

NOVAK: It's cruel unusual punishment when I read it myself the first time. Question.

BEGALA: Yes, sir.

Hi. I'm John Raines (ph) from Wichita Falls, Texas. I believe Bush's comments might have been a little gung ho, but they do display confidence with U.S. faces abroad. I think that's something that I believe that the left does not do.

NOVAK: Good for you. And you're from John Towers' hometown from Wichita Falls. And he was a great senator. And he'd agree with you.

BEGALA: Now there's a big difference between confidence in our forces and stupidity that Mr. Bush showed in his comments.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: And on the right, I'm Robert Novak.

Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired July 3, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE.

On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.

On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE:

From peacekeeping in Africa to insurgence in Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The answer is, "Bring them on."

ANNOUNCER: And from battles on Capitol Hill to an insurgency on the left.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a grass-roots rejection of George Bush.

ANNOUNCER: Stand by for some pre-Fourth of July political fireworks.

Plus, guess whose book is a hit in France?

Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live, from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Another 10 Americans soldiers were wounded today in Iraq. Meanwhile, the Bush administration leans closer to sending U.S. troops to yet another trouble spot, Liberia.

And here at home, the new unemployment rate is out. It is bad news for the millions of Americans who have lost their jobs. But will it mean George W. Bush will soon lose his?

We will debate all of this and more in a few minutes. But first, the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."

The Labor Department announced today that unemployment has reached a nine-year high of 6.4 percent; 9.4 million Americans in all are out of work. And the percentage of unemployed people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits is near an all-time high.

President George W. Bush, of course, had promised us that his tax cuts for the rich would spur economic growth. But with 3.2 million Americans who had jobs under President Clinton now unemployed under President Bush, the question is, Is this particularly upsetting for Mr. Bush because he inherited the strongest job market in history from Clinton? I don't know. I thought if Mr. Bush would be good at anything, it would be at inheriting things. But, you know, I....

ROBERT NOVAK, CNN CO-HOST: You know, Paul, the sad part about the Democratic Party is that all you can do is hope and wait that things get worse. You go to bed every night saying, "I hope more of my fellow Americans get thrown out of work so I can elect a Democrat," because that's the only chance you got is bad economic news.

BEGALA: But I'm holding him accountable. I hope George W. Bush gets thrown out of work so 3 million Americans who he's thrown out of work can get their jobs back. We've got Democrats -- ready to take off.

NOVAK: That's a cute pay of putting it, Paul. But the fact of the matter is, when a political party only relies on bad news, it's in trouble.

Expectations are that President Bush will order 500 to 1,000 peacekeeping troops to Liberia. The former governor of the People's Republic of Vermont Howard Dean, never to be outdone in seeking a headline in his race for the Democratic presidential nomination, now has called for 2,000 troops to Liberia.

Two thousand happens to be exactly the number called for by the Europeans. When the Europeans said no Americans troops to Iraq, dr. Dean said no. When the Europeans said 2,000 troops to Liberia, Dr. Dean said 2,000. Does he think he's really running for president of France?

BEGALA: Well, no. The question is, who's better to manage the alliance, right? When President Clinton was in office, the Europeans held with us. We went to war in Kosovo and won the war and had support from Europe. We went to war in Iraq and won the war with no help, but now in the occupation, almost every troop over there, 150,000 of them are Americans. We don't see French boys standing up to these suicide bombers. We don't see German boys. We don't see Italian boys.

NOVAK: Can I interrupt?

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Can I interrupt your tirade with my position?

BEGALA: Just explaining how foreign policy works.

NOVAK: Because I would say something else. I was talking about Howard Dean, and I was saying that it's very interesting that he does whatever the Europeans want.

BEGALA: I'd say it's important to have the Europeans with us.

Well, Bob Riley, the conservative Republican governor of Alabama, is pushing for an increase in taxes on big corporations and a big tax cut for the poor. Currently, poor people in Alabama pay nearly 11 percent of their incomes in taxes, while the rich pay just 4.1 percent.

So why this populist approach from this conservative Republican? Two words: Jesus Christ. A devout Christian, Governor Riley says -- and I quote the governor here -- quote -- "I spent a lot of time studying the New Testament. It has three philosophies: love God, love each other, and take care of the least among you. I don't think anyone can justify putting an income tax on someone who makes only $4,600 a year." -- unquote.

Amen, Brother Riley. Whom would Jesus tax? The rich or the poor? God bless Bob Riley.

NOVAK: You know, Paul, you got those figures out of "The New York Times" story. I never trust a "New York Times" story. Sometimes they make up things, as you know.

BEGALA: That's a shot. That's a cheap shot.

NOVAK: No, let me tell you...

BEGALA: That's a cheap shot.

NOVAK: Can I talk while you're interrupting, please?

If it is true, that those figures are accurate, which I don't know -- you may be surprised to know I'd probably agree with you. Those -- you shouldn't tax people making $4,600 a year. And I think you shouldn't let the lumber companies go scott-free, and I like Bob Riley and I think he's probably got a point.

BEGALA: Amen. God bless you. I would agree with you.

NOVAK: While millions of Americans boycott an unfriendly France, the junior senator from New York, that's Hillary Rodham Clinton, was there in France yesterday. She was flaking the French translation of her book and was interviewed by none other than the wife of French President Jacques Chirac, who was the arch critic of America.

Madame Chirac was some interviewer. She endorsed Senator Clinton for president of the United States. She said -- quote -- "there are a lot of women who hope one day she'll run for the presidency of the United States and that she'll win" -- endquote.

I wonder now whether Hillary is off to Germany, China and Syria and other anti-American countries. But alas, on the 4th of July, tomorrow, she'll be in England, where some people actually like us.

BEGALA: Well, no, shame on you for lumping the French in with the Chinese, the Syrians, other enemies of America. We wouldn't be a country the on 4th of July if it hadn't been for the French, who were our allies then. George W. Bush drove them away the way he drove away the rest of the civilized world. I say again, our occupation in Iraq would not be so bloody for so many American families if foreign troops were patrolling Iraq as well as American troops.

NOVAK: Well, you've made that point once or twice. I hope I don't have to hear it four more times tonight.

But I would say this to you, Paul: 200 years ago, when they were helping us, we were fighting the English. Things do actually change.

In a minute, the trials and tribulations of being policemen and nanny for the world. Can't anybody else clean up this mess -- their own mess?.

And guess who's moving ahead for the Democratic presidential nomination? Could it be the little doctor from Vermont? We'll fill you in and debate whether this means doom for Paul Begala's Democrats.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: When the Founding Fathers were preparing to adopt the Declaration of Independence 227 years ago, they could not have imagined that someday their descendants would be shouldering the burdens of being policeman for the world. It's a tough job, and I guess somebody has to do it. But should that somebody really be Howard Dean?

In the CROSSFIRE this 3rd of July, Democratic strategist, former Congressional leader, Tony Coelho. And the editorial page editor of "The Washington Times," Tony Blankley.

BEGALA: Guys, thank you both for joining us.

Tony, yesterday, our president was in the Roosevelt Room, standing under a heroic portrait of Theodore Roosevelt, a room where the -- Roosevelt's Nobel Prize used to be. And he made a statement that's caused some controversy. Let me play that statement, and then another comment and ask you to respond.

Here's the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: There are some who feel like that if they attack us, that we may decide to leave prematurely. They don't understand what they're talking about if that's the case. Let me finish. There are some who feel like, you know, the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is, "Bring them on."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: That statement has caused a lot of controversy.

Let me read you one response from a woman Joanne Miller (ph). She wrote to CROSSFIRE and this is what she says: "As the wife of a soldier, I find bush's remarks yesterday, 'Bring it on,' most distressing. Not only was it insulting to our servicemen and women, but a clear invitation to take more shots at them. Once again, Mr. Bush proves how insensitive he really is."

Isn't it juvenile at best for the president of the president of the United States to invite the enemy to kill our troops?

TONY BLANKLEY, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: No, and it's juvenile to take a shot at the president. I was interested -- Gephardt says it was phony macho.

BEGALA: But how about Mrs. Miller, whose husband....

BLANKLEY: I don't Mrs. Miller, this person you've conjured up out of the ether.

BEGALA: Well no, you're not accusing me of making stuff up?

BLANKLEY: I have no idea. I know...

BEGALA: Really?

NOVAK: Do you know Mrs. Miller?

BEGALA: Really?

BLANKLEY: I know what the Democratic candidate for president Dick Gephardt said. He was it was phony machoism. I think it's sort of pathetic that the best the Democrats can come up with is to accuse the president of being too virile.

But the truth is...

BEGALA: No, too purile (ph). Too juvenile.

BLANKLEY: No, virile.

BEGALA: Too infantile.

BLANKLEY: Virile.

BEGALA: No.

BLANKLEY: Let me tell you what the reality is. The reality is that we are in there for the long haul, as the president said -- that one of the reasons that we're there is to deflect the terrorist attacks. Right now, I'm going to be writing an article, by the way, in the paper in a few days pointing out that the people coming at our soldiers right now are a combination of the Baathist remnants, of Wahabi terrorists and of Iranian terrorists. We're engaging them -- our soldiers are engaging them in the field right now, and they need to come out and we need to get them so we can get on with the process.

NOVAK: Tony Coelho, there has been, since the end of the official hostilities, less than 30 American troops killed by hostile action. I grieve for them. I really do. But that is not a high level. And the Gallup Poll for CNN and "USA Today" has just taken a poll. We'll put it up on the screen.

Number of U.S. deaths in Iraq since major fighting ended: "Unacceptably high, 24 percent; Expected given the danger in Iraq, 74 percent." This is not a political issue, is it?

TONY COELHO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: For the 26 families that have had their young sons or daughters come home in coffins, it's a big issue. And for the president of the United States to say, "Bring them on," and let's have more young people come home in coffins, is despicable. I think that's what is upsetting.

(CROSSTALK)

COEHLO: It's unsensitive. It's upsetting.

And let me just tell you, Bob, about what is really worse is that this isn't speaking just to the right-wing of the United States. This is the president of the United States speaking to the world community.

(CROSSTALK)

BLANKLEY: That is not a fair statement. I don't believe if I put you on a polygraph you believe that the president wants to send more men home in coffins. I think you understand that it was phrased and talked about engaging the enemy and getting the job done. And that kind of insincere attacks -- there are good ways to attack the president, and there are insincere and bad a ways. And that's one of the bad ways.

COEHLO: You don't have to tell me how to attack the president. I've been doing it for years.

BLANKLEY: I know you have, and you're in the minority.

COEHLO: And I know when somebody's doing something wrong, and this was a despicable statement. It was wrong, and people know it's wrong.

BEGALA: Let me be, I hope, unfair to you in a way and quote back to you your own words.

BLANKLEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

BEGALA: No, seriously, I've said this before in public and I'm not patronizing you. Your editorial page of "The Washington Times," a right-wing paper, is consistently more interesting since you took it over, than "The Washington Post," you're more liberal, larger rivals. One of the things you wrote last week I want to ask you about now in light of the president's statement. You wrote last week that the president "should go and meet the families of soldiers killed over there in Iraq. He hasn't done so. He hasn't attended any of the funerals."

There have been 68 total deaths since he stood and boasted on that aircraft carrier that the mission was accomplished. What does it say about our president that he'll fly to an aircraft carrier and brag but won't go to the funeral of a serviceman?

BLANKLEY: Yes. I wrote a column last week where I said I thought that there were two ways for the president to deal with the continuing deaths in Iraq. One was kind of rhetorically minimize it. The other was to embrace it because it's an important thing. The deaths are noble. They're part was war on terrorism, and they're necessary to protect American lives. And I thought it was necessary for him to engage that issue. I was encouraged when he went out yesterday, and I think for the first...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He might never have said yesterday if he had been to the funeral of a man who was killed over there, would he, Tony?

COEHLO: Yes.

BLANKLEY: Let me just finish.

NOVAK: All right.

BLANKLEY: I think he took the right first step in talking about the importance of the fight, and my bet is, he will be visiting those (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NOVAK: All right, Tony Coehlo, take off your advocate's hat and put on your analyst's hat. There was a poll taken of Iowa caucus voters -- 2,000 voters. Big poll -- June 16 to 24, and this was before we knew that Dr. Dean had this -- all this money raised. Look at this result. Gephardt, who was supposed to be way ahead, 21 percent. Dean, 20 percent.

We're looking at Dean moving toward a win in Iowa, which will give him the win in New Hampshire and then it's all the way to Boston, isn't it?

COEHLO: That really frightens you, doesn't it? You love it, don't you?

NOVAK: What do you think? Just analytically.

COEHLO: I think analytically that right now that Dean is the flavor of the month. And we'll see in the next two months whether or not he can withstand the scrutiny. He's been permitted to get away with having a temper. He's been permitted to getting away...

NOVAK: Temper's bad?

COEHLO: Well, temper is bad when you pop off....

NOVAK: Nixon, Johnson....

COEHLO: ...when you pop off...

NOVAK: Clinton.

COEHLO: And how you have a problem with it. And so we'll see how he does. I hope he does well. I think it's great that he's dominating the news today. I think it's great for the Democratic Party that we're dominating the news through him.

So I'm not negative about this. I think it's great. But I want to see how he does over the next two months with scrutiny.

NOVAK: But you admit, he's the flavor?

COEHLO: He's the flavor. Absolutely.

BEGALA: The other thing that's dominating the news, particularly today is unemployment. The unemployment report out today, 6.4 percent. Isn't it impossible for Mr. Bush to argue that he's been a competent economic steward when 3 millions Americans who had jobs under Clinton have lost them under Bush?

BLANKLEY: Look, I've been editorializing for the last year that I've been at the paper that I said I'm concerned about the economy. It's weaker. I do not trust the consensus predictions that have consistently been wrong, and they continue to be wrong today. They said 6.2, it ended up being 6.4.

And the thing that disconcerts me the most, and we'll see that in my editorial tomorrow, is not just the fact that the people are out of work, which is a big deal, but the fact that neither party has any policy prescriptions left. We've after we reduced interest rates, the feds reduced it down from 6 down to 1 percent. We've cut taxes. We've had stimulus of fiscal policy shifting from a budget surplus to a big-budget deficit. And neither party -- I mean, no one is proposing what else we can do.

And my concern is that we would now don't have anything left to do other than sit and wait. And that worries me more as a citizen than as a politician. But the fact is that it's disconcerting when even the Democrats, the alternative party, don't really have a proposal. Because nobody knows what to do. We're coming on the outside of the bubble, and it's spooky.

BEGALA: Hold that thought. Tony Blankley, Tony Coehlo, we're going to be right back.

And when we return, we'll get a check of the hour's top stories. There's some breaking news you should know about. Find out what President Bush has decided about trials for some of the suspects in the war on terrorism. And we'll come back here for "RapidFire." where the questions and answers come faster than firecrackers going off on the 4th of July.

And our "Fireback" segment where our viewers will toss a view verbal cherry bombs of their own at our president's public bragging.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

Martin, thank you for that update. Time now nor "RapidFire," where there are only two kind of guests, the quick and the dead. Our guest tonight are very quick, they are Tony Blankley, editorial page editor of "The Washington Times," and Democratic strategist, former California congressman, Tony Coelho.

NOVAK: Mr. Coelho, Senator Martin Frost of Texas -- Democrat of Texas, says that Howard Dean has the appearance of being another George McGovern.

Agree or disagree?

COELHO: Disagree.

BEGALA: Tony Coelho, was it appropriate for -- Tony Blankley, forgive me, to put special interest campaign money while troops are dying in Iraq?

BLANKLEY: Yes. Both parties are raising money. That's the American political system.

NOVAK: What are the odds of Howard Dean against George W. Bush winning?

COELHO: George W. Bush will lose.

NOVAK: What are the odds?

COELHO: He will lose.

BEGALA: As we engage under President Bush in nation-believe in Iraq and perhaps in Liberia, in retrospect, do you think it was wrong for then Governor Bush to disparage national building as a candidate for the presidency?

BLANKLEY: In the same way that President Clinton when he ran as Governor Clinton, condemned engaging China in foreign policy, yes, usually governors who run for president despise foreign policy and then they get into office and find out they have to govern the world. Every governor getting elected president did it. Clinton, Bush is doing it. I'm glad they learned those lessons early on.

NOVAK: Mr. Coelho, the Democrats have been very mean to Ralph Nader, and as result, it looks like he may run again. Is it time to be nice to Ralph Nader?

COELHO: No.

BEGALA: Amen. Mr. Blankley, a new report out this week says homeland security is dangerously underfunded.

Do you think the Republicans have a problem when they put $1 trillion in the tax cuts and $27 billion in the first responders for terrorism?

BLANKLEY: Next Tuesday we're going to have an editorial page and op-ed covering entirely this topic. Yes, vast underfunding both from Congress, Democrats and Republicans and from the White House. We need to spend a lot more money in a higher sense of urgency.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Tony Blankley, thank you very much. Tony Coelho, thank you.

It's time to see how well our audience, our studio audiences knows our national holidays.

Take out your voting devices, folks, and tell us, when did July 4th become a federal holiday. Press 1 if you think it was 1789. Press 2 if you think the 4th of July didn't become a federal holiday until 1876. And press 3 if you think it happened way -- just the other day, in 1941. We'll have the results after the break.

And in "Fireback," one of you has a suggestion about what should happen if Hillary Clinton sells 1 million books and goes far beyond Tucker eating his shoes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

I hope you home have cast your vote on our trivia question. Sets see how our studio audience did.

The question was when did 4th of July become a federal legal holiday?

1789 20 percent said. Half the audience said it was 1876, but only 29 percent of the audience got it right. It was actually 1941.

NOVAK: You got it right and I got it wrong. First time I've ever been wrong and you've been right.

BEGALA: Speaking of 4th of July, tomorrow, Thomas Jefferson will be right here, the author of the Declaration of Independence 227 years ago, well, an actor and historian who plays him. See, he's a fascinating guy. I've met him. He's terrific.

NOVAK: OK. Rob Hull of Vancouver, British Columbia, says, "I think that President Bush's comments were tough, as they should be. Paul and all the 'lefties,' are going to criticize everything that Bush says. It's too bad they are more worried about Bush's comments and landing on air craft carriers than anything of substance. Rob, you're my kind of Canadian.

BEGALA: With all respect to Mr. Hull, there are no Canadian boys being killed over there. And for our president who is standing up and saying "bring them on," by the way, when he was AWOL from the national guard they didn't bring it on for him to fight for our country.

NOVAK: He was not AWOL. He was not AWOL.

BEGALA: He was AWOL.

NOVAK: And that is a liable. I may file suit. I may file suit against you.

BEGALA: AWOL, AWOL, AWOL for a year from his National Guard unit.

NOVAK: You can shout it but isn't true.

BEGALA: Mike Fogarty of Chicago, Illinois writes, "'Bring them on?' What is Mr. Bush thinking? He is awfully brave when other peoples' lives are on the line. I am happy he will be joining the long unemployment line next November."

NOVAK: OK. Next is Dan from Tennessee.

"Now I know where the Iraqi's learned how to be so anti-American. They got a hold of the Democratic party handbook."

BEGALA: Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something, Dan in Tennessee. This country was built on democracy. Criticizing this government is the most patriotic thing you can do. and I am a patriotic.

NOVAK: Last (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of a scoundral...

BEGALA: No, blind sucking up to power scoundrel. I'll stand up for democracy.

Tom Gorgey of Magnolia, Arkansas writes, "A modest proposal: Instead of killing an innocent shoe. Tucker should be required to read Hillary's book three items, aloud, to Bob Novak. Or would that be cruel and unusual punishment?"

NOVAK: It's cruel unusual punishment when I read it myself the first time. Question.

BEGALA: Yes, sir.

Hi. I'm John Raines (ph) from Wichita Falls, Texas. I believe Bush's comments might have been a little gung ho, but they do display confidence with U.S. faces abroad. I think that's something that I believe that the left does not do.

NOVAK: Good for you. And you're from John Towers' hometown from Wichita Falls. And he was a great senator. And he'd agree with you.

BEGALA: Now there's a big difference between confidence in our forces and stupidity that Mr. Bush showed in his comments.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: And on the right, I'm Robert Novak.

Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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