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CNN Crossfire
American People Losing Confidence in President Bush?
Aired July 21, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: another deadly ambush in Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police officers and the coalition members cannot sit back and wait to be attacked, wait to be shot, or basically give up.
ANNOUNCER: Is there any light at the end of the tunnel?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're patient. We're strong. We're resolute. And we will see this matter through.
ANNOUNCER: Plus: Al Sharpton's peace mission to Liberia. Our own Tucker Carlson went along and reports in -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush today said he wants to -- quote -- "encourage people to participate in making Iraq more secure and more free." In a moment, we will debate whether the president, who so publicly dissed the rest of the world before the war, is going to succeed in getting international help now that the occupation has gone poorly.
But first, we start with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Over the weekend, "The Washington Post" revealed that President Bush's claim that Iraq could launch a biological or chemical attack on 45 minutes notice was not approved by the CIA. Moreover, the president's claim that Iraq had close ties to al Qaeda was actually -- quote -- "highly disputed" -- unquote -- by intelligence officials. And "The Post" reports today that, while Mr. Bush told us that Saddam Hussein was a threat to give chemical or biological weapons to terrorists, the CIA actually told Mr. Bush, that was -- quote -- "unlikely" -- unquote -- but it would more likely if we attacked Saddam Hussein. Mr. Bush is now reduced to arguing that neither he nor his national security adviser even read the full 90-page national intelligence estimate before they took us to war.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: You know, I would like to put a little fact out, Paul. Facts are inconvenient. And that is, this 45-minute allegation did not appear in his major speech in October on Cincinnati, nor did it come in the State of the Union address.
So what it is, is an attempt to destroy President Bush, to destroy his presidency. You're just grabbing for a lot of straws in the wind, because it was not a major factor in going to war.
BEGALA: So if the president said something that's false and it's not in the State of the Union, it's OK? That's a new standard. Clinton didn't say he didn't sleep with Monica Lewinsky in the State of the Union.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Bush stood in the Rose Garden at the White House and said something untrue.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A famous 1968 photo showed a Southern Vietnamese general executing a suspected communist guerrilla. It won AP photographer Eddie Adams a Pulitzer Prize. And it deepened anti-war sentiment.
The photo was the model for a cartoon in yesterday's "Los Angeles Times" by another Pulitzer Prize winner, Michael Ramirez, showing President Bush being executed by politics in the streets of Baghdad. Mr. Ramirez is entitled to his obvious contempt for the president of the United States, but there should be limits on abuse of any president. This cartoon so far transcends the bounds of good taste and common decency that "The Los Angeles Times" should be ashamed of printing it.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This will shock you, but I think you're right. I'm not for any form of censorship. And this is not censorship. This is arguing what -- bad taste with public debate. And I think you're doing the right thing to raise attention to this. It is an offense. And I don't support President Bush on almost any of his policies. But that goes too far. I think you're right. "The L.A. Times" has a right to publish it, but you have a perfect right to criticize them. And I join you in the criticism, Bob.
NOVAK: Thank you very much.
BEGALA: You're right. I will never let that happen again, by the way. Stand on notice.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I'll never again say that you did the right thing.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Anyway, going on, 40 governors, led by Massachusetts Republican Governor Mitt Romney and including Florida Governor Jeb Bush, called on President Bush and the Congress today to approve $200 million in funding for AmeriCorps, which is President Clinton's national service program. President Bush had promised to increase AmeriCorps by 50 percent.
But Mr. Bush broke that promise, instead asking Congress to cut AmeriCorps by 50 percent. Now, a majority of the members of Congress support restoring the funding, which helps Americans serve their country by teaching in impoverished schools, helping preschoolers, preventing gang violence, caring for the elderly and many other good works. Republicans and Democrats alike have praised AmeriCorps for representing the best of American values. Let's hope Mr. Bush rediscovers one of those values: keeping your word.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Paul, I hate to seem like a one-man truth squad where you're concerned, but you've got your facts wrong again.
In the first place, the president did not break his word. He said that this money should not be in a bill for emergencies, only for emergencies. Secondly, you can't get that extra money through the House of Representatives. There's no bipartisan support. The Republicans think that the AmeriCorps has not proved its worth. They think that it has to justify that money. And I think the Republicans are right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The reason that it has to be in emergencies is because Bush cut the funding from his basic budget. That's why the only way to restore it is through an emergency supplemental.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush should keep his word. He promised to increase it, and now he's cutting it.
NOVAK: Gray Davis, who five years ago was elected governor of California as a centrist Democrat, is moving left in order to survive. If the recall election were held today, polls show Davis would be out. So, to pick up Latino support, the governor has changed positions on a bill to grant driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
He used to oppose that. Now he supports it. During last year's reelection campaign, he refused to meet with a left-wing minority group. Now he's courting the same organization. Does Gray Davis look like he doesn't believe in anything? And isn't that what got him in trouble in the first place?
(APPLAUSE) BEGALA: No. What got him into trouble in the first place is that the Bush economy tanked, and so that now people in California want to recall him because he's got a budget deficit. What if we had a law like that here in Washington? Bush took the greatest surplus in history and made it the greatest deficit in history. Maybe we should recall him. If it's good enough for California, it's good enough for America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: What do you think about the whole idea that he wouldn't sign the bill granting driver's licenses to illegal aliens; now he says, boy, I'm all for that?
BEGALA: He's wrong then and he's right now. Undocumented drivers should have to be safe drivers.
NOVAK: He's in trouble now.
BEGALA: And that's what -- driver's licenses make you pass a test, show that you know the laws of the state. It's a smart policy. I'm glad he adopted it.
NOVAK: You don't think his trouble on the recall suddenly gave -- clarified his thinking, so he agrees with you and Latinos?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: It might have. It very well might have, Bob. Good point.
NOVAK: President Bush says reconstruction efforts in Iraq should not be viewed as a political exercise. In a minute, we'll ask a couple of guests whether the Democrats will try to make Iraq anything but a political exercise.
And later, we'll ask Tucker Carlson what in the world he was thinking when he decided to follow Al Sharpton all the way to Africa.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: President Bush today said broadening the coalition in Iraq will bring about more security. He was talking about Europe. But do you suppose it might occur to the Democrats that they could join, too, instead of sitting on the sidelines and whining?
In the CROSSFIRE are Democrat consultant Mark Mellman and conservative strategist Bay Buchanan. She's president of the American Cause.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you all both for joining us.
Bay, just to put it in perspective, this is not just about 16 words, one sentence in one speech. Let me put it into context, because there are at least four major claims that our president made in leading us into war that are now highly dubious. Let me put them on the board and just go through them quickly.
First, most famously, the president did say that Saddam Hussein purchased -- tried to purchase uranium in Africa. Even the White House admits now that that was false. More recently, we've learned that his claim that they could launch a chemical or biological attack in 45 minutes was not approved by the CIA. The question of his arming terrorism, the CIA described as highly disputed. And his al Qaeda ties were, by American intelligence, called highly disputed.
Why did our president mislead us time after time after time about a matter of war?
BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: The president has never misled the American people. I take umbrage with that statement immediately.
The president of the United States, when he spoke at the State of the Union, that's when he converted me. I was opposed to the war up until that time. He spoke from his heart. And he made a very clear and strong case that his concern was that this country was threatened by Saddam Hussein, that he does have weapons of mass destruction, or capable of creating them, and that that posed a really -- a threat to the safety of the American people. And it's his responsibility to take that action.
I supported that. It was his decision, not ours. He heard all the evidence one way or the other, and he made his decision. The crux of his arguments is weapons of mass destruction. And all intelligence for the last 10 years strongly supports that to this day. So I don't think you can hold him responsible for them not having it. He felt they had it. The intelligence of Europe said they had it. Our intelligence has, for 10 years, said that he had it. And so he moved ahead in order to eliminate a threat. That's his job.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Mark Mellman, the Democratic National Committee is running an ad quoting the president in his State of the Union. And let's show what the ad shows right up on the screen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. That's only 10 words, not 16 words. Let me play what the president really said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. (END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: The Democratic National Committee ad eliminated "the British government has learned that." That's what they used to accused Joe McCarthy of doing. Do you condone that?
(LAUGHTER)
MARK MELLMAN, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Do I condone eliminating -- no.
NOVAK: No, but do you condone eliminating those words?
MELLMAN: I object strenuously to eliminating the words, "the British government said." But, frankly, it's totally beside the point. The reality...
NOVAK: Why?
MELLMAN: Because the reality is, there's a whole series of claims that the president made that don't seem to be backed up by the facts.
And the bottom line is this, Bob. One of two things are true. Either the president misled us about those weapons of mass destruction, or those weapons of mass destruction were there and they're now gone, disappeared, because this administration didn't have a plan to secure the weapons of mass destruction. They had a plan to secure the oil fields.
(APPLAUSE)
MELLMAN: They had a plan to secure the Oil Ministry. But they apparently didn't have a plan to secure those weapons.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: In fact, Bay, this is becoming increasingly a political liability for the president. Frankly, we're talking about it here.
It seems to me, his greatest claim on the affection of the American people has always been the argument that he puts forward that he's a straight shooter, he's a truth-teller. He went around all the country and said: I know what the meaning of is is.
Well, I know what the meaning of a bad poll is. And in the CNN/Gallup poll out today, the Gallup Organization asked the American people a simple question: Is Bush a leader you can trust? The majority of Americans today say no.
BUCHANAN: You know, I think you Democrats make a terrible mistake here. Sure, you guys have pounded him and pounded him. And he's fumbled the ball, the way he has explained this issue. He fumbled the ball.
But the American people want him to succeed. They supported him. He went against the polls. It's a leader to go against the polls. And he preserved...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He went against the truth.
(CROSSTALK)
MELLMAN: With 70 percent, 60, 70...
BUCHANAN: Before this war -- before he initiated this war, the American people said, we're against it. And he said, I have to take this
(CROSSTALK)
MELLMAN: Bay, with all due respect, that was true of George Bush the first in the Gulf War.
BUCHANAN: No, no. You are wrong.
MELLMAN: There's been a majority in favor of invading Iraq for 12 years. So he wasn't...
BUCHANAN: No, no, it reversed. They reversed it right before.
But let me just add here. I'll tell you where the key is. The American people know this man. They trust him as the commander in chief.
BEGALA: But they don't
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's my question.
BUCHANAN: You're wrong. When he gets out there and explains again and again, he's lost the momentum
(CROSSTALK)
MELLMAN: That's the problem. He's got to explain it again and again and again, because the explanation keeps changing again and again and again.
BUCHANAN: No, he doesn't. You guys don't -- you guys do not want to run on the issue of national security. You're foolhardy, because the horses in your corral cannot stand
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: ... that man when it comes to national security.
NOVAK: Let me suggest what the problem -- let me suggest what the problem is. And I'll tell you, from that same CNN/"TIME" poll.
In March, 65 percent of the people -- we'll put that up -- thought that it was right to go to war, now 61 percent, insignificant that -- the American people still support going on war on Iraq. What they're responding to is the pounding from Paul Begala and James Carville, isn't it?
MELLMAN: Paul is a very powerful guy. There's no question about that.
(APPLAUSE)
MELLMAN: But the reality here is pretty straightforward, which is, people think the decision was the right decision, but there are three problems this president faces.
First of all, he may not have been honest. The administration certainly wasn't honest with the American people. And the public doesn't like that. Second, this president had no plan to win the peace. And that is evident every single day in Iraq with every single casualty, with every single failure to put a government together in Iraq. It's clear that this White House had no plan to win the peace.
BUCHANAN: Mark...
MELLMAN: The third problem he's got is on the economy. And, yes, people think it's in deep trouble.
So the reality is, yes, people think it was the wise decision to go to war, but the reality is, his numbers are declining. People don't think he's really trustworthy anymore. And they have good reason to think that. It's a sad commentary.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Mark, you're completely wrong on those two issues, the first two points.
You're utterly wrong. He has never deceived the American people. Just because Democrats have claimed he has -- he may have gotten bad intelligence. There's no question. Should we investigate the intelligence and make certain that it's solid, what the president of the United States gets? Yes. The president has never deceived the American people.
And, secondly, he will -- he sees -- sure, wars are predictable. He has plans to try to put this thing together, to try to rebuild this country, so we can get out of there. And he's moving quickly and he's changing it, as he learns problems are there. And you can see, in six months from now, as we start turning this over to Iraqis, you guys are going to have nothing to run on.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: My friend Mark Mellman, Democratic consultant, Bay Buchanan, conservative strategist, I'm sorry to end it there. It's a terrific debate. Believe me, it's not the last we will hear from this.
But, after a quick break, Wolf Blitzer will check the latest news headlines.
And then CROSSFIRE will make a little news of its own. Our colleague and co-host Tucker Carlson will report live from Africa with an update on Al Sharpton's Liberian peace mission.
Later: A bird-watcher fires back his own thoughts on how we can identify a bird named George W. Bush.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Fierce fighting has erupted between Liberian rebels and fighters loyal to President Charles Taylor. The fighting was so intense today that the U.S. embassy in the capital of Monrovia was hit by mortar rounds.
The fighting has delayed a peace mission headed by the Reverend Al Sharpton. He and CROSSFIRE's own Tucker Carlson are in Ghana, where Tucker now joins us by phone.
Tucker, I understand that Reverend Sharpton is meeting with opposition leaders there in Accra, Ghana?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Yes, with the rebel group. And a lot of their leaders are staying in our hotel. I just saw one at dinner. They're all carrying guns here. They have the 15-year-old soldiers dressed in women's clothes high from sniffing gasoline that you saw on television today.
NOVAK: Have you talked to any of these people, Tucker?
CARLSON: Yes. I have spent all day talking to them. I would say it's the single most sinister group of people I have ever dealt with. And I live in Washington, so that's saying a lot.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Yes. They -- they say they don't want to take over the country, that they just want to have some sort of shared government. I'm not sure I take them at face value.
NOVAK: What's your bottom line? Do you think it's a good idea to send U.S. peacekeepers there, if there's no peace?
CARLSON: Well, when they attack the United States Embassy -- it's so bad that Sharpton was going in this morning to talk to Colin Powell and the ambassador here. And we were all set to go, but then we couldn't find a pilot even to fly in. That's how bad it is.
So it depends on, I guess, what your threshold for sending U.S. troops is. But it's pretty bad.
BEGALA: Well, Tucker, what does Reverend Sharpton hope to do? I mean, President Bush is weighing the options. He said today he cares deeply about the people of Liberia. I think he called them librarians, but otherwise...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: What does -- what -- I just made that up. But what is Sharpton's plan, though?
CARLSON: Well, Sharpton is here with a group that includes Cornel West of Princeton, a number of members of the Nation of Islam, Dhoruba Bin Wahad, former Black Panther, Cora Masters Barry, the wife of Marion Berry, and the editor of "The Final Column" (ph) newspaper, and me.
And tonight, we're all going to be meeting with President Taylor's representatives from Liberia and representatives of the two rebel groups. And Sharpton's plan is to sort of moderate the discussion and to forge a peace. Hard to take it too seriously. On the other hand, nobody else is doing it. So who knows? It's so chaotic that maybe he can bring about a peace.
NOVAK: Tucker Carlson, stay out of the crossfire in after Africa, please. Thank you very much for being with us.
CARLSON: I'll try. Thank you, Bob.
NOVAK: It's time for our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your voting devices and tell us whether President Bush should send U.S. troops to Liberia.
Press one for, yes, you want him to send in U.S. peacekeepers. Press two for, no, the U.S. should not have anything to do with this mess. We'll have the results right after the break, along with some of our viewers' comments on Tucker cardinal -- Tucker Carlson's wonderful trip to Africa with Al Sharpton.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time now for "Fireback," where you get to take shots at us.
First, the response to our audience poll. We asked the audience whether President Bush should send troops to Liberia. Two-thirds of the audience said no. Democrats and Republicans alike overwhelmingly say no, Bob.
NOVAK: You know, it's so very rare that there's bipartisan agreement on something for a change.
OK, we'll take a look at the e-mails.
Larry Seehagen of West Vancouver, British Columbia, asks: "Does Tucker accompanying Al Sharpton to Africa confirm the rumor that Tucker is finally officially joining the Al Sharpton for president team?"
Maybe not, but both Tucker and I think that Al would be a fitting representative of the Democratic Party against George W. Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's what makes me nervous, although, Al Sharpton at least is trying to prevent a war. And to the best of our knowledge, he's never misled us about a war, which you can't say about Mr. Bush.
Bob Glatter of Santa Barbara, California, writes: "Why kind of bird is George Bush? He strutted like a peacock on the deck of the aircraft carrier to declare an end to combat in Iraq. He stuck his head in the sand like an ostrich when it became known that Saddam Hussein did not get yellowcake uranium from Africa, as he claimed. I think he's just a turkey."
Well, Bob...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I think you read Bob -- I think you write Bob Glatter's stuff for him.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Question from the audience?
BEGALA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Brendan (ph). I'm from San Rafael, California.
And my question is, which Democratic presidential candidate is in the best position to take advantage of the Iraq intelligence scandal?
NOVAK: Well, I don't think it's a scandal, young fellow. But I think it's a Democratic ploy perpetuated by his friends in the media. I think Howard Dean is in the best position.
BEGALA: Well, honestly, I don't know. The question is not, was the intelligence right or wrong? The question is, did the president make it right or wrong? Did he massage it? Did he spin it? And the abundant evidence is that he did, that our president misled us about this war and the intelligence.
NOVAK: Well, that wasn't the question.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Let's get another one.
BEGALA: Yes, sir?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Dean (ph) from Chicago.
I'm wondering how you rate Tony Blair's chances of survival.
NOVAK: In Britain? I don't know. His approval rating is about 24 percent, which -- I think that's pretty good, because the British don't know what they're doing most of the time anyway. So I go with the 24 percent.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: He is a remarkably gifted leader. And as one who disagreed with him on the war, when I saw him standing there in the well of the Congress, I was praying to God he was our president, instead of Bush. But I guess I shouldn't say that, huh?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, you can always go to Britain and obtain citizenship.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: On a personal note, today is the birthday of our very fine director, Howie Lutt (ph).
Howie, happy birthday. Thanks for making us look good.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 21, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: another deadly ambush in Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police officers and the coalition members cannot sit back and wait to be attacked, wait to be shot, or basically give up.
ANNOUNCER: Is there any light at the end of the tunnel?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're patient. We're strong. We're resolute. And we will see this matter through.
ANNOUNCER: Plus: Al Sharpton's peace mission to Liberia. Our own Tucker Carlson went along and reports in -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush today said he wants to -- quote -- "encourage people to participate in making Iraq more secure and more free." In a moment, we will debate whether the president, who so publicly dissed the rest of the world before the war, is going to succeed in getting international help now that the occupation has gone poorly.
But first, we start with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Over the weekend, "The Washington Post" revealed that President Bush's claim that Iraq could launch a biological or chemical attack on 45 minutes notice was not approved by the CIA. Moreover, the president's claim that Iraq had close ties to al Qaeda was actually -- quote -- "highly disputed" -- unquote -- by intelligence officials. And "The Post" reports today that, while Mr. Bush told us that Saddam Hussein was a threat to give chemical or biological weapons to terrorists, the CIA actually told Mr. Bush, that was -- quote -- "unlikely" -- unquote -- but it would more likely if we attacked Saddam Hussein. Mr. Bush is now reduced to arguing that neither he nor his national security adviser even read the full 90-page national intelligence estimate before they took us to war.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: You know, I would like to put a little fact out, Paul. Facts are inconvenient. And that is, this 45-minute allegation did not appear in his major speech in October on Cincinnati, nor did it come in the State of the Union address.
So what it is, is an attempt to destroy President Bush, to destroy his presidency. You're just grabbing for a lot of straws in the wind, because it was not a major factor in going to war.
BEGALA: So if the president said something that's false and it's not in the State of the Union, it's OK? That's a new standard. Clinton didn't say he didn't sleep with Monica Lewinsky in the State of the Union.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Bush stood in the Rose Garden at the White House and said something untrue.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A famous 1968 photo showed a Southern Vietnamese general executing a suspected communist guerrilla. It won AP photographer Eddie Adams a Pulitzer Prize. And it deepened anti-war sentiment.
The photo was the model for a cartoon in yesterday's "Los Angeles Times" by another Pulitzer Prize winner, Michael Ramirez, showing President Bush being executed by politics in the streets of Baghdad. Mr. Ramirez is entitled to his obvious contempt for the president of the United States, but there should be limits on abuse of any president. This cartoon so far transcends the bounds of good taste and common decency that "The Los Angeles Times" should be ashamed of printing it.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This will shock you, but I think you're right. I'm not for any form of censorship. And this is not censorship. This is arguing what -- bad taste with public debate. And I think you're doing the right thing to raise attention to this. It is an offense. And I don't support President Bush on almost any of his policies. But that goes too far. I think you're right. "The L.A. Times" has a right to publish it, but you have a perfect right to criticize them. And I join you in the criticism, Bob.
NOVAK: Thank you very much.
BEGALA: You're right. I will never let that happen again, by the way. Stand on notice.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I'll never again say that you did the right thing.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Anyway, going on, 40 governors, led by Massachusetts Republican Governor Mitt Romney and including Florida Governor Jeb Bush, called on President Bush and the Congress today to approve $200 million in funding for AmeriCorps, which is President Clinton's national service program. President Bush had promised to increase AmeriCorps by 50 percent.
But Mr. Bush broke that promise, instead asking Congress to cut AmeriCorps by 50 percent. Now, a majority of the members of Congress support restoring the funding, which helps Americans serve their country by teaching in impoverished schools, helping preschoolers, preventing gang violence, caring for the elderly and many other good works. Republicans and Democrats alike have praised AmeriCorps for representing the best of American values. Let's hope Mr. Bush rediscovers one of those values: keeping your word.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Paul, I hate to seem like a one-man truth squad where you're concerned, but you've got your facts wrong again.
In the first place, the president did not break his word. He said that this money should not be in a bill for emergencies, only for emergencies. Secondly, you can't get that extra money through the House of Representatives. There's no bipartisan support. The Republicans think that the AmeriCorps has not proved its worth. They think that it has to justify that money. And I think the Republicans are right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The reason that it has to be in emergencies is because Bush cut the funding from his basic budget. That's why the only way to restore it is through an emergency supplemental.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush should keep his word. He promised to increase it, and now he's cutting it.
NOVAK: Gray Davis, who five years ago was elected governor of California as a centrist Democrat, is moving left in order to survive. If the recall election were held today, polls show Davis would be out. So, to pick up Latino support, the governor has changed positions on a bill to grant driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
He used to oppose that. Now he supports it. During last year's reelection campaign, he refused to meet with a left-wing minority group. Now he's courting the same organization. Does Gray Davis look like he doesn't believe in anything? And isn't that what got him in trouble in the first place?
(APPLAUSE) BEGALA: No. What got him into trouble in the first place is that the Bush economy tanked, and so that now people in California want to recall him because he's got a budget deficit. What if we had a law like that here in Washington? Bush took the greatest surplus in history and made it the greatest deficit in history. Maybe we should recall him. If it's good enough for California, it's good enough for America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: What do you think about the whole idea that he wouldn't sign the bill granting driver's licenses to illegal aliens; now he says, boy, I'm all for that?
BEGALA: He's wrong then and he's right now. Undocumented drivers should have to be safe drivers.
NOVAK: He's in trouble now.
BEGALA: And that's what -- driver's licenses make you pass a test, show that you know the laws of the state. It's a smart policy. I'm glad he adopted it.
NOVAK: You don't think his trouble on the recall suddenly gave -- clarified his thinking, so he agrees with you and Latinos?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: It might have. It very well might have, Bob. Good point.
NOVAK: President Bush says reconstruction efforts in Iraq should not be viewed as a political exercise. In a minute, we'll ask a couple of guests whether the Democrats will try to make Iraq anything but a political exercise.
And later, we'll ask Tucker Carlson what in the world he was thinking when he decided to follow Al Sharpton all the way to Africa.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: President Bush today said broadening the coalition in Iraq will bring about more security. He was talking about Europe. But do you suppose it might occur to the Democrats that they could join, too, instead of sitting on the sidelines and whining?
In the CROSSFIRE are Democrat consultant Mark Mellman and conservative strategist Bay Buchanan. She's president of the American Cause.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you all both for joining us.
Bay, just to put it in perspective, this is not just about 16 words, one sentence in one speech. Let me put it into context, because there are at least four major claims that our president made in leading us into war that are now highly dubious. Let me put them on the board and just go through them quickly.
First, most famously, the president did say that Saddam Hussein purchased -- tried to purchase uranium in Africa. Even the White House admits now that that was false. More recently, we've learned that his claim that they could launch a chemical or biological attack in 45 minutes was not approved by the CIA. The question of his arming terrorism, the CIA described as highly disputed. And his al Qaeda ties were, by American intelligence, called highly disputed.
Why did our president mislead us time after time after time about a matter of war?
BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: The president has never misled the American people. I take umbrage with that statement immediately.
The president of the United States, when he spoke at the State of the Union, that's when he converted me. I was opposed to the war up until that time. He spoke from his heart. And he made a very clear and strong case that his concern was that this country was threatened by Saddam Hussein, that he does have weapons of mass destruction, or capable of creating them, and that that posed a really -- a threat to the safety of the American people. And it's his responsibility to take that action.
I supported that. It was his decision, not ours. He heard all the evidence one way or the other, and he made his decision. The crux of his arguments is weapons of mass destruction. And all intelligence for the last 10 years strongly supports that to this day. So I don't think you can hold him responsible for them not having it. He felt they had it. The intelligence of Europe said they had it. Our intelligence has, for 10 years, said that he had it. And so he moved ahead in order to eliminate a threat. That's his job.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Mark Mellman, the Democratic National Committee is running an ad quoting the president in his State of the Union. And let's show what the ad shows right up on the screen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. That's only 10 words, not 16 words. Let me play what the president really said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. (END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: The Democratic National Committee ad eliminated "the British government has learned that." That's what they used to accused Joe McCarthy of doing. Do you condone that?
(LAUGHTER)
MARK MELLMAN, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Do I condone eliminating -- no.
NOVAK: No, but do you condone eliminating those words?
MELLMAN: I object strenuously to eliminating the words, "the British government said." But, frankly, it's totally beside the point. The reality...
NOVAK: Why?
MELLMAN: Because the reality is, there's a whole series of claims that the president made that don't seem to be backed up by the facts.
And the bottom line is this, Bob. One of two things are true. Either the president misled us about those weapons of mass destruction, or those weapons of mass destruction were there and they're now gone, disappeared, because this administration didn't have a plan to secure the weapons of mass destruction. They had a plan to secure the oil fields.
(APPLAUSE)
MELLMAN: They had a plan to secure the Oil Ministry. But they apparently didn't have a plan to secure those weapons.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: In fact, Bay, this is becoming increasingly a political liability for the president. Frankly, we're talking about it here.
It seems to me, his greatest claim on the affection of the American people has always been the argument that he puts forward that he's a straight shooter, he's a truth-teller. He went around all the country and said: I know what the meaning of is is.
Well, I know what the meaning of a bad poll is. And in the CNN/Gallup poll out today, the Gallup Organization asked the American people a simple question: Is Bush a leader you can trust? The majority of Americans today say no.
BUCHANAN: You know, I think you Democrats make a terrible mistake here. Sure, you guys have pounded him and pounded him. And he's fumbled the ball, the way he has explained this issue. He fumbled the ball.
But the American people want him to succeed. They supported him. He went against the polls. It's a leader to go against the polls. And he preserved...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He went against the truth.
(CROSSTALK)
MELLMAN: With 70 percent, 60, 70...
BUCHANAN: Before this war -- before he initiated this war, the American people said, we're against it. And he said, I have to take this
(CROSSTALK)
MELLMAN: Bay, with all due respect, that was true of George Bush the first in the Gulf War.
BUCHANAN: No, no. You are wrong.
MELLMAN: There's been a majority in favor of invading Iraq for 12 years. So he wasn't...
BUCHANAN: No, no, it reversed. They reversed it right before.
But let me just add here. I'll tell you where the key is. The American people know this man. They trust him as the commander in chief.
BEGALA: But they don't
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's my question.
BUCHANAN: You're wrong. When he gets out there and explains again and again, he's lost the momentum
(CROSSTALK)
MELLMAN: That's the problem. He's got to explain it again and again and again, because the explanation keeps changing again and again and again.
BUCHANAN: No, he doesn't. You guys don't -- you guys do not want to run on the issue of national security. You're foolhardy, because the horses in your corral cannot stand
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: ... that man when it comes to national security.
NOVAK: Let me suggest what the problem -- let me suggest what the problem is. And I'll tell you, from that same CNN/"TIME" poll.
In March, 65 percent of the people -- we'll put that up -- thought that it was right to go to war, now 61 percent, insignificant that -- the American people still support going on war on Iraq. What they're responding to is the pounding from Paul Begala and James Carville, isn't it?
MELLMAN: Paul is a very powerful guy. There's no question about that.
(APPLAUSE)
MELLMAN: But the reality here is pretty straightforward, which is, people think the decision was the right decision, but there are three problems this president faces.
First of all, he may not have been honest. The administration certainly wasn't honest with the American people. And the public doesn't like that. Second, this president had no plan to win the peace. And that is evident every single day in Iraq with every single casualty, with every single failure to put a government together in Iraq. It's clear that this White House had no plan to win the peace.
BUCHANAN: Mark...
MELLMAN: The third problem he's got is on the economy. And, yes, people think it's in deep trouble.
So the reality is, yes, people think it was the wise decision to go to war, but the reality is, his numbers are declining. People don't think he's really trustworthy anymore. And they have good reason to think that. It's a sad commentary.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Mark, you're completely wrong on those two issues, the first two points.
You're utterly wrong. He has never deceived the American people. Just because Democrats have claimed he has -- he may have gotten bad intelligence. There's no question. Should we investigate the intelligence and make certain that it's solid, what the president of the United States gets? Yes. The president has never deceived the American people.
And, secondly, he will -- he sees -- sure, wars are predictable. He has plans to try to put this thing together, to try to rebuild this country, so we can get out of there. And he's moving quickly and he's changing it, as he learns problems are there. And you can see, in six months from now, as we start turning this over to Iraqis, you guys are going to have nothing to run on.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: My friend Mark Mellman, Democratic consultant, Bay Buchanan, conservative strategist, I'm sorry to end it there. It's a terrific debate. Believe me, it's not the last we will hear from this.
But, after a quick break, Wolf Blitzer will check the latest news headlines.
And then CROSSFIRE will make a little news of its own. Our colleague and co-host Tucker Carlson will report live from Africa with an update on Al Sharpton's Liberian peace mission.
Later: A bird-watcher fires back his own thoughts on how we can identify a bird named George W. Bush.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Fierce fighting has erupted between Liberian rebels and fighters loyal to President Charles Taylor. The fighting was so intense today that the U.S. embassy in the capital of Monrovia was hit by mortar rounds.
The fighting has delayed a peace mission headed by the Reverend Al Sharpton. He and CROSSFIRE's own Tucker Carlson are in Ghana, where Tucker now joins us by phone.
Tucker, I understand that Reverend Sharpton is meeting with opposition leaders there in Accra, Ghana?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Yes, with the rebel group. And a lot of their leaders are staying in our hotel. I just saw one at dinner. They're all carrying guns here. They have the 15-year-old soldiers dressed in women's clothes high from sniffing gasoline that you saw on television today.
NOVAK: Have you talked to any of these people, Tucker?
CARLSON: Yes. I have spent all day talking to them. I would say it's the single most sinister group of people I have ever dealt with. And I live in Washington, so that's saying a lot.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Yes. They -- they say they don't want to take over the country, that they just want to have some sort of shared government. I'm not sure I take them at face value.
NOVAK: What's your bottom line? Do you think it's a good idea to send U.S. peacekeepers there, if there's no peace?
CARLSON: Well, when they attack the United States Embassy -- it's so bad that Sharpton was going in this morning to talk to Colin Powell and the ambassador here. And we were all set to go, but then we couldn't find a pilot even to fly in. That's how bad it is.
So it depends on, I guess, what your threshold for sending U.S. troops is. But it's pretty bad.
BEGALA: Well, Tucker, what does Reverend Sharpton hope to do? I mean, President Bush is weighing the options. He said today he cares deeply about the people of Liberia. I think he called them librarians, but otherwise...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: What does -- what -- I just made that up. But what is Sharpton's plan, though?
CARLSON: Well, Sharpton is here with a group that includes Cornel West of Princeton, a number of members of the Nation of Islam, Dhoruba Bin Wahad, former Black Panther, Cora Masters Barry, the wife of Marion Berry, and the editor of "The Final Column" (ph) newspaper, and me.
And tonight, we're all going to be meeting with President Taylor's representatives from Liberia and representatives of the two rebel groups. And Sharpton's plan is to sort of moderate the discussion and to forge a peace. Hard to take it too seriously. On the other hand, nobody else is doing it. So who knows? It's so chaotic that maybe he can bring about a peace.
NOVAK: Tucker Carlson, stay out of the crossfire in after Africa, please. Thank you very much for being with us.
CARLSON: I'll try. Thank you, Bob.
NOVAK: It's time for our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your voting devices and tell us whether President Bush should send U.S. troops to Liberia.
Press one for, yes, you want him to send in U.S. peacekeepers. Press two for, no, the U.S. should not have anything to do with this mess. We'll have the results right after the break, along with some of our viewers' comments on Tucker cardinal -- Tucker Carlson's wonderful trip to Africa with Al Sharpton.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time now for "Fireback," where you get to take shots at us.
First, the response to our audience poll. We asked the audience whether President Bush should send troops to Liberia. Two-thirds of the audience said no. Democrats and Republicans alike overwhelmingly say no, Bob.
NOVAK: You know, it's so very rare that there's bipartisan agreement on something for a change.
OK, we'll take a look at the e-mails.
Larry Seehagen of West Vancouver, British Columbia, asks: "Does Tucker accompanying Al Sharpton to Africa confirm the rumor that Tucker is finally officially joining the Al Sharpton for president team?"
Maybe not, but both Tucker and I think that Al would be a fitting representative of the Democratic Party against George W. Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's what makes me nervous, although, Al Sharpton at least is trying to prevent a war. And to the best of our knowledge, he's never misled us about a war, which you can't say about Mr. Bush.
Bob Glatter of Santa Barbara, California, writes: "Why kind of bird is George Bush? He strutted like a peacock on the deck of the aircraft carrier to declare an end to combat in Iraq. He stuck his head in the sand like an ostrich when it became known that Saddam Hussein did not get yellowcake uranium from Africa, as he claimed. I think he's just a turkey."
Well, Bob...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I think you read Bob -- I think you write Bob Glatter's stuff for him.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Question from the audience?
BEGALA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Brendan (ph). I'm from San Rafael, California.
And my question is, which Democratic presidential candidate is in the best position to take advantage of the Iraq intelligence scandal?
NOVAK: Well, I don't think it's a scandal, young fellow. But I think it's a Democratic ploy perpetuated by his friends in the media. I think Howard Dean is in the best position.
BEGALA: Well, honestly, I don't know. The question is not, was the intelligence right or wrong? The question is, did the president make it right or wrong? Did he massage it? Did he spin it? And the abundant evidence is that he did, that our president misled us about this war and the intelligence.
NOVAK: Well, that wasn't the question.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Let's get another one.
BEGALA: Yes, sir?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Dean (ph) from Chicago.
I'm wondering how you rate Tony Blair's chances of survival.
NOVAK: In Britain? I don't know. His approval rating is about 24 percent, which -- I think that's pretty good, because the British don't know what they're doing most of the time anyway. So I go with the 24 percent.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: He is a remarkably gifted leader. And as one who disagreed with him on the war, when I saw him standing there in the well of the Congress, I was praying to God he was our president, instead of Bush. But I guess I shouldn't say that, huh?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, you can always go to Britain and obtain citizenship.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: On a personal note, today is the birthday of our very fine director, Howie Lutt (ph).
Howie, happy birthday. Thanks for making us look good.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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