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CNN Crossfire
Dick Cheney Fires Back at Iraq Critics
Aired July 24, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Dick Cheney explains it all.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our response to terrorism has changed because George W. Bush is president of the United States.
ANNOUNCER: The Bush administration's counteroffensive against terrorism, against Saddam Hussein, and against its critics.
CHENEY: Ladies and gentlemen, this is some of what we knew. Knowing these things, how could we, I ask, have allowed that threat to stand?
ANNOUNCER: Plus: the recall. The nutty politics of California could claim its governor -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Vice President Dick Cheney today posed some questions to all the critics who have been carping about the war in Iraq. In a little bit, we'll see if a couple of those critics, including the one on the other side of the table, can answer them.
But first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Weeks of denial by Democrats ended today. It was announced that an election to recall Governor Gray Davis will be held October 7. Davis, who has been unable to cope with California's budget crisis, switched over to what he does best: attack. He called this a right- wing plot by conservatives and enemies of abortion.
That's not what it's about. Californians are furious at Davis for not warning, in his reelection campaign, about big-time tax increases. For once, this election is about Gray Davis, not his enemies. And that's trouble for him.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, so let me figure this out, then. Californian are going to recall or try to recall Governor Davis because the Bush economy tanked now and now he has a big deficit. Well, why don't we recall George Bush, then?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Why don't we have the same right in Washington?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me explain it to you. He ran for reelection. He knew there was going to be a deficit. He said there would not be a big tax increase. He's having a tax increase. And thanks to Hiram Johnson and his progressive stuff, they have a chance to recall him.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: My question is, why to do right-wingers hate elections? Why do they hate majority rule? The American people voted for Al Gore.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: They put George Bush in the White House. The Californian people voted for Gray Davis. They want to throw him out. What is wrong with these guys?
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The long-awaited congressional report on the 9/11 terrorist attacks was released today. Republican Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, the former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said today the Bush administration should have given more information on what it knew before 9/11 to the American people.
Critics note that a 28-page section of the report has been blacked out by the Bush administration. And the critical August 6, 2001, briefing in which President Bush was reportedly told of a terrorist plot to hijack airplanes has also been cut out of the report by the Bush administration. And Senator Shelby told CNN this morning -- quote -- "You're not getting all of the story" -- unquote. With President Bush, we never do.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, I'm a one-man truth squad with you, Paul. He was asked on CNN this morning whether we're not getting all -- the full story. And what he said is, you're not getting all the story, but, as usual, you cut off what he said next. He says: You're getting a lot of it. And I can tell you, you're getting more than bits and pieces. And the American people will pull most of it together. And just a minute. And then he was -- about that briefing that the president didn't get, he said there's the risk that you can declassify too much. Why don't you tell the truth?
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Hey, I saw that interview and I read that transcript. Dick Shelby today, here it is. He also said that our president is hiding information from the American people. He told Bill Hemmer of CNN this morning. People, go on the CNN Web site, CNN.com. Read it for yourself. Don't believe the right-wing spin. A Republican senator has declared that our president is hiding information.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: It's disgraceful the way you -- you're like Joe McCarthy.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: CNN.com.
NOVAK: This was a hell of a week for Howard Dean, former governor of the people's republic of Vermont.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It started with the Field poll in California showing Dean ahead of all other Democrats for president. Then Dean picked up the endorsement of eight-term Congressman Frank Pallone of New Jersey. And then, today, it was revealed that former Republican Senator and former independent Governor Lowell Weicker of Connecticut is endorsing Dean. But wait. Dean didn't get Willie Nelson.
The country troubadour will do benefit concerts for another candidate: Congressman Dennis Kucinich. What a battle of the titans: Howard Dean vs. Dennis Kucinich.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me tell you what, Bob. This is where I draw the line. I am from Texas. I'm a Texan down to my cowboy boots. And anybody who messes with Willie Nelson messes with me. In Austin, Texas, where I'm from, we say, if you don't believe in Willie, you're an atheist. He is one of the great Americans. I can't believe right- wingers want to attack a great American like Willie Nelson.
NOVAK: What does that got to do with what I just said?
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: Kucinich vs. Dean, take your choice.
(LAUGHTER) BEGALA: Well, a conservative group is running ads claiming that those who oppose Alabama conservative William Pryor for the federal appeals court do so because Mr. Pryor is Catholic. Now, Pryor has called the Roe vs. Wade decision -- quote -- "the worst abomination in the history of the constitutional law" -- unquote. Democrats say it's not about religion, though. It's about truthfulness.
Pryor, the Alabama attorney general, testified that, as attorney general of his state, he had not raised money from tobacco companies he was investigating. But documents entered into evidence and given to the Senate Judiciary Committee show he had. He was sucking up to such killer corporations as Philip Morris, Brown & Williamson, and R.J. Reynolds. Apparently, calling himself pro-life didn't stop Mr. Pryor from raising money from merchants of death and then misleading the Senate about it.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Paul, let me explain to you what the complaint is on these ads. Mr. Pryor, the attorney general, is a conservative Catholic who goes by the old-time religion. He, like the pope, is against abortion. And what your friends on the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Democrats, are saying is, anybody who's against abortion can't be confirmed to the judiciary.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He ought to obey the Eighth Commandment and not bear false witness. That's what he did under testimony to the Senate.
Well, Vice President Cheney today emerged from his secure and undisclosed location. Of course, that can only mean one thing, six more weeks of misleading statements about the war in Iraq. So it's a Groundhog Day Deal.
We'll debate whether the vice president's counterattack is an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
The U.S.-led administration in Iraq today released photographs of two blood-splattered bodies that the United States government says are Uday and Qusay Hussein, or at least all that's left of them. We're going to show them to you, but first a warning. They are gruesome photographs. You might want to look away starting right now.
Uday and Qusay were killed in a U.S. assault Tuesday in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. American officials hope that, by releasing photographs of the two Hussein brothers, they will convince skeptical Iraqis that the men are, indeed, dead, very dead, as dead as you can be.
Meanwhile, Vice President Dick Cheney today tried to silence the critics by saying it would have been irresponsible not to take action against Saddam Hussein's regime. But did Mr. Cheney and President Bush irresponsibly give the American people faulty experience to build support for that war?
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate all of this: Defense Policy Board member and former U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Director Ken Adelman; and Joe Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment For International Peace.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Gentlemen, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Cirincione, in town this week is Paul Bremer, Ambassador Paul Bremer.
JOE CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: Yes.
NOVAK: Distinguished public servant and the man running the show in Iraq. And he talked about the death of the Hussein brothers. And let's listen to what he said.
CIRINCIONE: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: The Baathists are finished. Saddam and his henchmen are finished. They're not coming back. And the strategic importance of the killings, of their being dead, is to help us persuade the Iraqi people that we are there, having liberated the country. We're there and we're going to be sure that these Baathists have no future. And I think it will, in fact, in time, help reduce -- reduce the security threat to our forces.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Can you disagree with that, Mr. Cirincione?
CIRINCIONE: I hope he's right.
I hope the numbers of the Swiss bank accounts died with Uday and Qusay. I hope they were the nexus that was coordinating and financing these terrorist attacks. But I think Ambassador Bremer is being a bit too optimistic. No. 1, the Baathist Party is still there. It is widespread. There still appears to be significant resistance from them. No. 2, here's the worst part. There's a lot more than just the Baathist party attacking.
For the first time, we have al Qaeda operatives and al Qaeda-like organizations operating
(CROSSTALK) CIRINCIONE: The administration officials have said this themselves. U.S. military officials on the scene have described some of the attacks as coming from al Qaeda and al Qaeda-type organizations. This was not the situation before we went.
Ironically, in an effort to break up the terrorist network, we have extended the operational network of al Qaeda. And U.S. troops are paying the price for it.
BEGALA: Ken, first off, let me say, nobody's happier than I am that the gates of hell have swung open for these two thugs. They were monsters. And the 101st Airborne men who went in to kill them deserve all of our thanks.
KEN ADELMAN, FORMER ARMS CONTROL DIRECTOR: You're right. But, Paul, that wouldn't have happened unless we had troops there, you know?
BEGALA: Isn't it, though, a statement about the credibility of the United States of America that, first, we have to release pictures because nobody believes our word anymore, and, second, that now the Bush administration is, I think, again, setting themselves up for a fall, saying, well, this will end all of the potshots, all of the terrorism, all of the attacks?
If -- I hope he's right and pray he is right. But if Mr. Bremer is wrong, doesn't that damage our credibility even further?
ADELMAN: Paul, let me just say that I love the way critics say: I'm happy the boys are dead because they were monsters, but I wouldn't have gone into Iraq.
Well, they wouldn't have dead unless we went into Iraq. So let's remember that, OK?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But, Ken, here's the problem.
ADELMAN: You can't have it both ways. You can't have it both ways, that it's just wonderful that these monsters are dead and it's just wonderful that the killing camp has stopped, and it is now being revealed. It's just wonderful that this regime is -- and all these kids are out of jail. That's just wonderful. But we shouldn't have been there.
You can't say that, Paul.
BEGALA: Let me say it.
ADELMAN: OK. BEGALA: It's wonderful that they're dead, but it's not worth the lives of 250 Americans, when they didn't pose an imminent threat to our country. That's what I believe.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's what most Americans believe, Ken.
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: Well, it's certainly the -- what they had done, what Iraq had done, as we have talked about on this show many, many times, is defied international law for a long time, used weapons of mass destruction against its neighbors, used mass -- weapons of mass destruction against its own people, and had a horrendous regime as well.
And I think it was totally justified. And I think Dick Cheney made a wonderful defense of this. And I think that, when you look at the American people, you're in the minority, Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: That gives me a segue/question of Mr. Cirincione, because I thought it was a very interesting speech by the vice president. And he read from the national intelligence estimate that some Democrats, including Paul, claimed was never read in the administration. Of course it was read in the administration.
And here is what Mr. Cheney -- this is Mr. Cheney reading from the intelligence estimate. Let's listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: All key aspects, the R&D, production and weaponization of Iraq's offensive biological weapons program are active and that most elements are larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf War.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: So, as the biological weapons of mass destruction, the intelligence that the president had to justify the attack said there were biological weapons. Isn't that correct?
CIRINCIONE: That is what the intelligence estimates said. And I think that intelligence estimate clearly was wrong.
And what happened in the early stages of the Bush administration was that they put pressure on the intelligence agencies themselves. And we have a number of intelligence analysts coming forward and saying this now. And they pushed the intelligence estimates themselves up to an extreme and a very alarmist tone. And then Vice President Cheney and the president and the secretary of defense and the secretary of state erased all the caveats from these intelligence estimates in their public statements, so the might-bes and the could- bes and we're-concerned-thats were dropped.
And they all became has, will do, larger than, imminent threat. This was just wrong. I think the senior administration officials fundamentally misled the American people.
BEGALA: And here's how, Ken.
The answer you just gave me a moment ago was absolutely true. Everything you said was completely true.
ADELMAN: Well, thank you, Paul.
BEGALA: You're a man of great integrity. We disagree, but I admire your integrity.
ADELMAN: Thank you. Thank you.
BEGALA: You said Saddam used chemical and biological weapons against the Kurds in his country. You said he used them against the Iranians.
ADELMAN: Yes.
BEGALA: You said he violated the U.N. That's absolutely true. That's not the only things our president and vice president said to us, however, Ken. They went beyond the facts. This is what they said.
Let me put it up on the screen to remind the American people. They said that Saddam Hussein was a threat to us for the following reasons. Let me put this up on the board here: that they were buying uranium in Africa. The White House admits that that was false -- that they could launch chemical and biological attacks against us within 45 minutes. Not true. That they were arming terrorists. The CIA says it's highly disputed. That they had ties to al Qaeda. Again, our CIA says it's highly disputed.
And on and on and on, claim after claim was false, because they wanted to pretend that there was an imminent threat to our country.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Wasn't that wrong?
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: Let me -- let me say, the first two -- put that list up again and I'll show you.
BEGALA: Put it back up, please.
ADELMAN: The first two were not conclusions of the U.S. intelligence, but conclusions of the British intelligence and were quoted as much -- and quoted as much.
(CROSSTALK) ADELMAN: Secondly, Joe is absolutely wrong in saying that there was this kind of pressure. The intelligence did not change qualitatively from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration. And, secondly, so you look over times -- and there was not any big change in the intelligence estimate. If you look at Bill Clinton's remarks of five years ago on the danger to -- Saddam Hussein, they're not any more hysterical than the Bush administration. I think they're just as accurate.
Second point, second point, is that Joe is wrong, because all this pressure on the CIA and all, the French intelligence believed the same thing. The German intelligence believed the same thing. The neighboring Arab intelligence believed the same thing. And, certainly, Bush and Cheney were not putting pressure on the French intelligence.
CIRINCIONE: No. I disagree.
ADELMAN: Their intelligence findings were about the same as ours.
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: And the British intelligence finding -- the British intelligence finding, MI6, was far more extreme than ours.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him respond.
Go ahead.
the
CIRINCIONE: No, I disagree. I don't believe the French and other nations felt the same way.
What happens here in these arguments is, everything gets kind of mushed together. We all thought that Saddam had programs. We all thought he had his intentions. We all thought that he might have some stockpiles. Only the administration said the stockpiles were larger than they were in the past. They talked about hundreds of tons of chemical and biological agents, dozens of Scuds, a growing fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles.
We have found no evidence of this. The administration was fundamentally wrong. It's obvious now that these stockpiles did not exist at -- and certainly not at the level that the administration claimed they did.
NOVAK: We have to take a quick break.
And, afterwards, Wolf Blitzer will update the news headlines. And then it's "Rapid Fire," the quickest question-and-answer session in politics. Later: Howard Dean alienates another Democrat, who fires back to tell us the reason why. (APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It's time for "Rapid Fire": short questions, short answers, no filibustering. We're talking about the Bush administration's defense of its strategy in Iraq and the war on terrorism with Joe Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment For International Peace and Defense Policy Board member Ken Adelman.
BEGALA: Ken, our vice president today, Dick Cheney, gave a speech where he said it would have been irresponsible not to confront Saddam Hussein through war, because he posed such a threat. Was it therefore irresponsible for Dick Cheney, when he was a corporate CEO in 1998, to sell him $73 million worth of oil field equipment to Saddam Hussein? Was that irresponsible?
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: I don't know that Halliburton did that.
BEGALA: They did. It was reported in "The Washington Post."
NOVAK: All right. All right.
BEGALA: Sorry.
NOVAK: Would you say that it was a mistake and a violation of the rules to put out the pictures or do you think this was necessary, of the Hussein brothers, in order to convince the Iraqi people?
CIRINCIONE: They are gruesome photographs, but it is absolutely essential. Our credibility in the world has fallen so low that, unless we have positive proof, people aren't going to believe us.
BEGALA: Ken, was it a dereliction of duty for our president not to read the definitive 90-page national intelligence estimate before he sent young men into combat?
ADELMAN: I don't know any president who reads all the NIEs.
BEGALA: I do.
ADELMAN: Oh, well, they waste a lot of time, because there is stuff in there that you can fly through pretty quickly. You look at the big summaries. You have disputes on all kinds of intelligence, because it's an inexact field. So I think that having a general knowledge of the subject that he got briefed on every single day is far more important than going through an 80-page mushy report.
NOVAK: Paul Begala says it was not worth one American life to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his sons. Agree or not agree? CIRINCIONE: That's a tough question. It's good that Saddam is gone. There's no question about that.
(BELL RINGING)
CIRINCIONE: Did we have to go to war? No, we did not. We had him contained. Inspections were working.
NOVAK: Was it worth one life?
CIRINCIONE: One life to get rid of Saddam? Yes, I'm afraid it is. There are some minimal costs we could have paid. Unfortunately, the cost we're paying now is too high: one American dying every day, three or four more maimed.
BEGALA: Joe Cirincione, Carnegie Endowment For International Peace, thank you very much.
Ken Adelman, former Reagan adviser, currently adviser to the Pentagon and the Bush administration, thank you both very much for a good debate.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Time now for our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your little voting devices here in the studio, audience. And tell us this. Will the photos of Uday and Qusay Hussein's bodies convince Iraqis that they are actually Saddam's sons and that they're actually dead? Press one for, yes, the Iraqi people will be convinced by the photos we showed you earlier. Press two for, no, the photos won't convince people that Saddam's sons have met their maker or at least the occupants of Hades.
We'll have the results for right after break, along with "Fireback." And in that segment, one of our viewers dares to point out the flaws in Vice President Dick Cheney's arguments.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Welcome back.
Now, 62 percent of the people in the audience think the photos will convince the Iraqis; 38 percent says no.
BEGALA: Well, there's a lot of skepticism because we didn't tell the truth to the American people. Now we are telling the truth to the Iraqi people, but it's understandable that maybe some of them won't believe us.
Our first e-mail is from Ryan Malone in Indianapolis, Indiana, who writes: "I think I speak for most Democrats across the country when I say I'm glad the sons of Saddam are gone. However, our problem with the Republicans' position on Iraq remains very simple: The ends don't justify the means." (APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Now, that -- the ends don't justify the means is what your candidate Howard Dean said. And so...
BEGALA: My candidate? The Democrats' candidate.
NOVAK: So Rick Wigington of Lincoln, Nebraska, said: "Just as this pragmatic Democrat was warming to Howard Dean, he makes a bizarre statement about the death of the Hussein brothers. I would have loved to push the express elevator to hell for those guys. I wish they'd been taken alive and given a taste of their own medicine until they gave up their old man."
Way to go, Rick.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, the question is, were they a threat to the American people? That's what I care about.
Yes, sir?
NOVAK: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, my name is Brent Burgh (ph). I'm from Memphis, Tennessee.
And my question is, will Democrats listen to President Clinton when he says it's -- all presidents make mistakes and it's time to move on?
NOVAK: They probably won't because they're too mean-spirited. I thought President Clinton was great the other day, didn't you?
BEGALA: For the first time, Novak endorses President Clinton.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I think we can see why. When Republicans are turning to Bill Clinton to defend themselves against presidential misstatements, we know they're in big, big trouble.
NOVAK: Well, when you and Carville are attacking us, any port in the storm.
BEGALA: No, I love President Clinton. He's just being overly gracious. And I think that we should hold Mr. Bush accountable for his words.
NOVAK: You've never been overly gracious. I'll tell you that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE. NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 24, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Dick Cheney explains it all.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our response to terrorism has changed because George W. Bush is president of the United States.
ANNOUNCER: The Bush administration's counteroffensive against terrorism, against Saddam Hussein, and against its critics.
CHENEY: Ladies and gentlemen, this is some of what we knew. Knowing these things, how could we, I ask, have allowed that threat to stand?
ANNOUNCER: Plus: the recall. The nutty politics of California could claim its governor -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Vice President Dick Cheney today posed some questions to all the critics who have been carping about the war in Iraq. In a little bit, we'll see if a couple of those critics, including the one on the other side of the table, can answer them.
But first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Weeks of denial by Democrats ended today. It was announced that an election to recall Governor Gray Davis will be held October 7. Davis, who has been unable to cope with California's budget crisis, switched over to what he does best: attack. He called this a right- wing plot by conservatives and enemies of abortion.
That's not what it's about. Californians are furious at Davis for not warning, in his reelection campaign, about big-time tax increases. For once, this election is about Gray Davis, not his enemies. And that's trouble for him.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, so let me figure this out, then. Californian are going to recall or try to recall Governor Davis because the Bush economy tanked now and now he has a big deficit. Well, why don't we recall George Bush, then?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Why don't we have the same right in Washington?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me explain it to you. He ran for reelection. He knew there was going to be a deficit. He said there would not be a big tax increase. He's having a tax increase. And thanks to Hiram Johnson and his progressive stuff, they have a chance to recall him.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: My question is, why to do right-wingers hate elections? Why do they hate majority rule? The American people voted for Al Gore.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: They put George Bush in the White House. The Californian people voted for Gray Davis. They want to throw him out. What is wrong with these guys?
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The long-awaited congressional report on the 9/11 terrorist attacks was released today. Republican Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, the former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said today the Bush administration should have given more information on what it knew before 9/11 to the American people.
Critics note that a 28-page section of the report has been blacked out by the Bush administration. And the critical August 6, 2001, briefing in which President Bush was reportedly told of a terrorist plot to hijack airplanes has also been cut out of the report by the Bush administration. And Senator Shelby told CNN this morning -- quote -- "You're not getting all of the story" -- unquote. With President Bush, we never do.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, I'm a one-man truth squad with you, Paul. He was asked on CNN this morning whether we're not getting all -- the full story. And what he said is, you're not getting all the story, but, as usual, you cut off what he said next. He says: You're getting a lot of it. And I can tell you, you're getting more than bits and pieces. And the American people will pull most of it together. And just a minute. And then he was -- about that briefing that the president didn't get, he said there's the risk that you can declassify too much. Why don't you tell the truth?
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Hey, I saw that interview and I read that transcript. Dick Shelby today, here it is. He also said that our president is hiding information from the American people. He told Bill Hemmer of CNN this morning. People, go on the CNN Web site, CNN.com. Read it for yourself. Don't believe the right-wing spin. A Republican senator has declared that our president is hiding information.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: It's disgraceful the way you -- you're like Joe McCarthy.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: CNN.com.
NOVAK: This was a hell of a week for Howard Dean, former governor of the people's republic of Vermont.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It started with the Field poll in California showing Dean ahead of all other Democrats for president. Then Dean picked up the endorsement of eight-term Congressman Frank Pallone of New Jersey. And then, today, it was revealed that former Republican Senator and former independent Governor Lowell Weicker of Connecticut is endorsing Dean. But wait. Dean didn't get Willie Nelson.
The country troubadour will do benefit concerts for another candidate: Congressman Dennis Kucinich. What a battle of the titans: Howard Dean vs. Dennis Kucinich.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me tell you what, Bob. This is where I draw the line. I am from Texas. I'm a Texan down to my cowboy boots. And anybody who messes with Willie Nelson messes with me. In Austin, Texas, where I'm from, we say, if you don't believe in Willie, you're an atheist. He is one of the great Americans. I can't believe right- wingers want to attack a great American like Willie Nelson.
NOVAK: What does that got to do with what I just said?
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: Kucinich vs. Dean, take your choice.
(LAUGHTER) BEGALA: Well, a conservative group is running ads claiming that those who oppose Alabama conservative William Pryor for the federal appeals court do so because Mr. Pryor is Catholic. Now, Pryor has called the Roe vs. Wade decision -- quote -- "the worst abomination in the history of the constitutional law" -- unquote. Democrats say it's not about religion, though. It's about truthfulness.
Pryor, the Alabama attorney general, testified that, as attorney general of his state, he had not raised money from tobacco companies he was investigating. But documents entered into evidence and given to the Senate Judiciary Committee show he had. He was sucking up to such killer corporations as Philip Morris, Brown & Williamson, and R.J. Reynolds. Apparently, calling himself pro-life didn't stop Mr. Pryor from raising money from merchants of death and then misleading the Senate about it.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Paul, let me explain to you what the complaint is on these ads. Mr. Pryor, the attorney general, is a conservative Catholic who goes by the old-time religion. He, like the pope, is against abortion. And what your friends on the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Democrats, are saying is, anybody who's against abortion can't be confirmed to the judiciary.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He ought to obey the Eighth Commandment and not bear false witness. That's what he did under testimony to the Senate.
Well, Vice President Cheney today emerged from his secure and undisclosed location. Of course, that can only mean one thing, six more weeks of misleading statements about the war in Iraq. So it's a Groundhog Day Deal.
We'll debate whether the vice president's counterattack is an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
The U.S.-led administration in Iraq today released photographs of two blood-splattered bodies that the United States government says are Uday and Qusay Hussein, or at least all that's left of them. We're going to show them to you, but first a warning. They are gruesome photographs. You might want to look away starting right now.
Uday and Qusay were killed in a U.S. assault Tuesday in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. American officials hope that, by releasing photographs of the two Hussein brothers, they will convince skeptical Iraqis that the men are, indeed, dead, very dead, as dead as you can be.
Meanwhile, Vice President Dick Cheney today tried to silence the critics by saying it would have been irresponsible not to take action against Saddam Hussein's regime. But did Mr. Cheney and President Bush irresponsibly give the American people faulty experience to build support for that war?
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate all of this: Defense Policy Board member and former U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Director Ken Adelman; and Joe Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment For International Peace.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Gentlemen, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Cirincione, in town this week is Paul Bremer, Ambassador Paul Bremer.
JOE CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: Yes.
NOVAK: Distinguished public servant and the man running the show in Iraq. And he talked about the death of the Hussein brothers. And let's listen to what he said.
CIRINCIONE: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: The Baathists are finished. Saddam and his henchmen are finished. They're not coming back. And the strategic importance of the killings, of their being dead, is to help us persuade the Iraqi people that we are there, having liberated the country. We're there and we're going to be sure that these Baathists have no future. And I think it will, in fact, in time, help reduce -- reduce the security threat to our forces.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Can you disagree with that, Mr. Cirincione?
CIRINCIONE: I hope he's right.
I hope the numbers of the Swiss bank accounts died with Uday and Qusay. I hope they were the nexus that was coordinating and financing these terrorist attacks. But I think Ambassador Bremer is being a bit too optimistic. No. 1, the Baathist Party is still there. It is widespread. There still appears to be significant resistance from them. No. 2, here's the worst part. There's a lot more than just the Baathist party attacking.
For the first time, we have al Qaeda operatives and al Qaeda-like organizations operating
(CROSSTALK) CIRINCIONE: The administration officials have said this themselves. U.S. military officials on the scene have described some of the attacks as coming from al Qaeda and al Qaeda-type organizations. This was not the situation before we went.
Ironically, in an effort to break up the terrorist network, we have extended the operational network of al Qaeda. And U.S. troops are paying the price for it.
BEGALA: Ken, first off, let me say, nobody's happier than I am that the gates of hell have swung open for these two thugs. They were monsters. And the 101st Airborne men who went in to kill them deserve all of our thanks.
KEN ADELMAN, FORMER ARMS CONTROL DIRECTOR: You're right. But, Paul, that wouldn't have happened unless we had troops there, you know?
BEGALA: Isn't it, though, a statement about the credibility of the United States of America that, first, we have to release pictures because nobody believes our word anymore, and, second, that now the Bush administration is, I think, again, setting themselves up for a fall, saying, well, this will end all of the potshots, all of the terrorism, all of the attacks?
If -- I hope he's right and pray he is right. But if Mr. Bremer is wrong, doesn't that damage our credibility even further?
ADELMAN: Paul, let me just say that I love the way critics say: I'm happy the boys are dead because they were monsters, but I wouldn't have gone into Iraq.
Well, they wouldn't have dead unless we went into Iraq. So let's remember that, OK?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But, Ken, here's the problem.
ADELMAN: You can't have it both ways. You can't have it both ways, that it's just wonderful that these monsters are dead and it's just wonderful that the killing camp has stopped, and it is now being revealed. It's just wonderful that this regime is -- and all these kids are out of jail. That's just wonderful. But we shouldn't have been there.
You can't say that, Paul.
BEGALA: Let me say it.
ADELMAN: OK. BEGALA: It's wonderful that they're dead, but it's not worth the lives of 250 Americans, when they didn't pose an imminent threat to our country. That's what I believe.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's what most Americans believe, Ken.
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: Well, it's certainly the -- what they had done, what Iraq had done, as we have talked about on this show many, many times, is defied international law for a long time, used weapons of mass destruction against its neighbors, used mass -- weapons of mass destruction against its own people, and had a horrendous regime as well.
And I think it was totally justified. And I think Dick Cheney made a wonderful defense of this. And I think that, when you look at the American people, you're in the minority, Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: That gives me a segue/question of Mr. Cirincione, because I thought it was a very interesting speech by the vice president. And he read from the national intelligence estimate that some Democrats, including Paul, claimed was never read in the administration. Of course it was read in the administration.
And here is what Mr. Cheney -- this is Mr. Cheney reading from the intelligence estimate. Let's listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: All key aspects, the R&D, production and weaponization of Iraq's offensive biological weapons program are active and that most elements are larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf War.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: So, as the biological weapons of mass destruction, the intelligence that the president had to justify the attack said there were biological weapons. Isn't that correct?
CIRINCIONE: That is what the intelligence estimates said. And I think that intelligence estimate clearly was wrong.
And what happened in the early stages of the Bush administration was that they put pressure on the intelligence agencies themselves. And we have a number of intelligence analysts coming forward and saying this now. And they pushed the intelligence estimates themselves up to an extreme and a very alarmist tone. And then Vice President Cheney and the president and the secretary of defense and the secretary of state erased all the caveats from these intelligence estimates in their public statements, so the might-bes and the could- bes and we're-concerned-thats were dropped.
And they all became has, will do, larger than, imminent threat. This was just wrong. I think the senior administration officials fundamentally misled the American people.
BEGALA: And here's how, Ken.
The answer you just gave me a moment ago was absolutely true. Everything you said was completely true.
ADELMAN: Well, thank you, Paul.
BEGALA: You're a man of great integrity. We disagree, but I admire your integrity.
ADELMAN: Thank you. Thank you.
BEGALA: You said Saddam used chemical and biological weapons against the Kurds in his country. You said he used them against the Iranians.
ADELMAN: Yes.
BEGALA: You said he violated the U.N. That's absolutely true. That's not the only things our president and vice president said to us, however, Ken. They went beyond the facts. This is what they said.
Let me put it up on the screen to remind the American people. They said that Saddam Hussein was a threat to us for the following reasons. Let me put this up on the board here: that they were buying uranium in Africa. The White House admits that that was false -- that they could launch chemical and biological attacks against us within 45 minutes. Not true. That they were arming terrorists. The CIA says it's highly disputed. That they had ties to al Qaeda. Again, our CIA says it's highly disputed.
And on and on and on, claim after claim was false, because they wanted to pretend that there was an imminent threat to our country.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Wasn't that wrong?
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: Let me -- let me say, the first two -- put that list up again and I'll show you.
BEGALA: Put it back up, please.
ADELMAN: The first two were not conclusions of the U.S. intelligence, but conclusions of the British intelligence and were quoted as much -- and quoted as much.
(CROSSTALK) ADELMAN: Secondly, Joe is absolutely wrong in saying that there was this kind of pressure. The intelligence did not change qualitatively from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration. And, secondly, so you look over times -- and there was not any big change in the intelligence estimate. If you look at Bill Clinton's remarks of five years ago on the danger to -- Saddam Hussein, they're not any more hysterical than the Bush administration. I think they're just as accurate.
Second point, second point, is that Joe is wrong, because all this pressure on the CIA and all, the French intelligence believed the same thing. The German intelligence believed the same thing. The neighboring Arab intelligence believed the same thing. And, certainly, Bush and Cheney were not putting pressure on the French intelligence.
CIRINCIONE: No. I disagree.
ADELMAN: Their intelligence findings were about the same as ours.
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: And the British intelligence finding -- the British intelligence finding, MI6, was far more extreme than ours.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him respond.
Go ahead.
the
CIRINCIONE: No, I disagree. I don't believe the French and other nations felt the same way.
What happens here in these arguments is, everything gets kind of mushed together. We all thought that Saddam had programs. We all thought he had his intentions. We all thought that he might have some stockpiles. Only the administration said the stockpiles were larger than they were in the past. They talked about hundreds of tons of chemical and biological agents, dozens of Scuds, a growing fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles.
We have found no evidence of this. The administration was fundamentally wrong. It's obvious now that these stockpiles did not exist at -- and certainly not at the level that the administration claimed they did.
NOVAK: We have to take a quick break.
And, afterwards, Wolf Blitzer will update the news headlines. And then it's "Rapid Fire," the quickest question-and-answer session in politics. Later: Howard Dean alienates another Democrat, who fires back to tell us the reason why. (APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It's time for "Rapid Fire": short questions, short answers, no filibustering. We're talking about the Bush administration's defense of its strategy in Iraq and the war on terrorism with Joe Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment For International Peace and Defense Policy Board member Ken Adelman.
BEGALA: Ken, our vice president today, Dick Cheney, gave a speech where he said it would have been irresponsible not to confront Saddam Hussein through war, because he posed such a threat. Was it therefore irresponsible for Dick Cheney, when he was a corporate CEO in 1998, to sell him $73 million worth of oil field equipment to Saddam Hussein? Was that irresponsible?
(APPLAUSE)
ADELMAN: I don't know that Halliburton did that.
BEGALA: They did. It was reported in "The Washington Post."
NOVAK: All right. All right.
BEGALA: Sorry.
NOVAK: Would you say that it was a mistake and a violation of the rules to put out the pictures or do you think this was necessary, of the Hussein brothers, in order to convince the Iraqi people?
CIRINCIONE: They are gruesome photographs, but it is absolutely essential. Our credibility in the world has fallen so low that, unless we have positive proof, people aren't going to believe us.
BEGALA: Ken, was it a dereliction of duty for our president not to read the definitive 90-page national intelligence estimate before he sent young men into combat?
ADELMAN: I don't know any president who reads all the NIEs.
BEGALA: I do.
ADELMAN: Oh, well, they waste a lot of time, because there is stuff in there that you can fly through pretty quickly. You look at the big summaries. You have disputes on all kinds of intelligence, because it's an inexact field. So I think that having a general knowledge of the subject that he got briefed on every single day is far more important than going through an 80-page mushy report.
NOVAK: Paul Begala says it was not worth one American life to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his sons. Agree or not agree? CIRINCIONE: That's a tough question. It's good that Saddam is gone. There's no question about that.
(BELL RINGING)
CIRINCIONE: Did we have to go to war? No, we did not. We had him contained. Inspections were working.
NOVAK: Was it worth one life?
CIRINCIONE: One life to get rid of Saddam? Yes, I'm afraid it is. There are some minimal costs we could have paid. Unfortunately, the cost we're paying now is too high: one American dying every day, three or four more maimed.
BEGALA: Joe Cirincione, Carnegie Endowment For International Peace, thank you very much.
Ken Adelman, former Reagan adviser, currently adviser to the Pentagon and the Bush administration, thank you both very much for a good debate.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Time now for our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your little voting devices here in the studio, audience. And tell us this. Will the photos of Uday and Qusay Hussein's bodies convince Iraqis that they are actually Saddam's sons and that they're actually dead? Press one for, yes, the Iraqi people will be convinced by the photos we showed you earlier. Press two for, no, the photos won't convince people that Saddam's sons have met their maker or at least the occupants of Hades.
We'll have the results for right after break, along with "Fireback." And in that segment, one of our viewers dares to point out the flaws in Vice President Dick Cheney's arguments.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Welcome back.
Now, 62 percent of the people in the audience think the photos will convince the Iraqis; 38 percent says no.
BEGALA: Well, there's a lot of skepticism because we didn't tell the truth to the American people. Now we are telling the truth to the Iraqi people, but it's understandable that maybe some of them won't believe us.
Our first e-mail is from Ryan Malone in Indianapolis, Indiana, who writes: "I think I speak for most Democrats across the country when I say I'm glad the sons of Saddam are gone. However, our problem with the Republicans' position on Iraq remains very simple: The ends don't justify the means." (APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Now, that -- the ends don't justify the means is what your candidate Howard Dean said. And so...
BEGALA: My candidate? The Democrats' candidate.
NOVAK: So Rick Wigington of Lincoln, Nebraska, said: "Just as this pragmatic Democrat was warming to Howard Dean, he makes a bizarre statement about the death of the Hussein brothers. I would have loved to push the express elevator to hell for those guys. I wish they'd been taken alive and given a taste of their own medicine until they gave up their old man."
Way to go, Rick.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, the question is, were they a threat to the American people? That's what I care about.
Yes, sir?
NOVAK: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, my name is Brent Burgh (ph). I'm from Memphis, Tennessee.
And my question is, will Democrats listen to President Clinton when he says it's -- all presidents make mistakes and it's time to move on?
NOVAK: They probably won't because they're too mean-spirited. I thought President Clinton was great the other day, didn't you?
BEGALA: For the first time, Novak endorses President Clinton.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I think we can see why. When Republicans are turning to Bill Clinton to defend themselves against presidential misstatements, we know they're in big, big trouble.
NOVAK: Well, when you and Carville are attacking us, any port in the storm.
BEGALA: No, I love President Clinton. He's just being overly gracious. And I think that we should hold Mr. Bush accountable for his words.
NOVAK: You've never been overly gracious. I'll tell you that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE. NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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