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CNN Crossfire
Democracy Working in California?
Aired July 29, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Everybody from movie star Arnold Schwarzenegger to a woman selling thong underwear is talking about terminating the administration of California Governor Gray Davis. Is democracy working or breaking down?
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: I intend to be there every day for the rest of Gray's 100 days making his life and his departure a certainty.
GOV. GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: When my back is against the wall is when my juices start pumping, baby. And if those folks want a fight, bring it on.
ANNOUNCER: Plus: the Texas Democrats' latest run for the border -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
The circus is coming to California. It's getting a little hard to tell the elephants from the clowns. We will look at the Republicans' effort to recall California Governor Gray Davis this afternoon.
But first, we'll begin, as we always do, with the best political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
President Bush today rejected calls to release all of Congress' report on the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Democrats and Republicans alike have called upon Mr. Bush to come clean with the American people, but Mr. Bush today said no.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It makes no sense to declassify when we've got an ongoing investigation that could jeopardize that investigation. And it made no sense to declassify if -- during the war on terror, because it would help the enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: In other words, I think, if the truth comes out, the terrorists win.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush appears to be solid in his stonewall. I suppose that that figures. If he doesn't read the intelligence reports, I guess he figures no one else should either.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Shame on him.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Paul, as you know, having worked in the Clinton administration, that the default position of government at all levels in every administration is secrecy over openness. That's just the way government is.
BEGALA: That's a wise observation. I agree.
CARLSON: In this case, I think it's a shame. I think there is real concern about methods and sources of intelligence. But those are probably smaller than 28 pages. And they should release more, because it's going to get out anyway. This is Washington. Members of Congress have read it. It will be leaked. We will know in "The Washington Post" what it says. And I think the administration ought to take heart.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: I agree. We agree rarely, but, this time, we do.
CARLSON: Amen.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Texas Democrats have run away yet again. Eleven of the state's 12 Democratic senators fled to New Mexico yesterday, preventing the legislature there from solving the ongoing crisis over redistricting. Rather than digging into the tiresome, difficult task of actually running the state, the senators, like their House counterparts 2 1/2 months ago, have fled.
They've camped out in a hotel in Albuquerque, feasting on room service and holding self-righteous press conferences. (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Quote: "This is about civil rights," explained the head of the Democratic caucus, presumably between bites of shrimp cocktail.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Actually, it's about laziness and also about petulance. And, above all, it's about teaching the children of Texas a valuable lesson about adulthood. If you don't get precisely what you want, burst into tears and flee to another state.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, Tucker. God bless those Texas Democrats. God bless them.
The law is very clear. You're supposed to change your congressional districts every 10 years with the census. They did that the last time the Texas legislature met. Tom DeLay, the right-wing Republican who runs the Congress, is forcing this through for no good reason, except for his own power grab. God bless those Democrats who are trying to protect our rights.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Paul, they -- they have a partisan disagreement. To a large extent, it's an honest disagreement. They ought to fight it out like they do about everything else. You don't just run away in tears, throw your toys in the trash, and say, I'm not playing with you. That's what they're doing. And it's pathetic.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: So, what you do is, you come into...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No.
CARLSON: It's pathetic.
BEGALA: You come into the state. You overthrow a map that the federal courts drew that is perfectly fair?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Stay and fight, men. Come on.
BEGALA: Well, the Bush administration today did not stay and fight. They were forced to abandon yet another one of its bright ideas, that being an online wagering pool where people could bet on future acts of terrorism.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I am not making this up. Apparently, under President George W. Bush, terrorism is not merely to be exploited for political gain. It is to be wagered on for financial gain. When Senate Democrats pointed out that such a system could actually allow terrorists to profit from their evil acts, the administration backed down.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And, by the way, the man President Bush put in charge of this idea is retired Admiral John Poindexter, who we all remember was convicted of lying to Congress about another bright idea, shipping weapons to the Ayatollah Khomeini during the Iran-Contra days.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Somewhere, you just got to believe that virtue czar and chronic gambler Bill Bennett is silently weeping.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: The perfect deal for him.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Actually, Paul, truly, terrorists can and there's some evidence terrorists have profited from the open market in their acts of terrorism. This is one of those ideas that is both clever, maybe even slightly brilliant, but also demented, obviously, a bad idea. It no longer exists, thanks largely, really, to Democrats on the Hill.
But I'm glad that the administration really is thinking big, even if sometimes they come up with slightly crackpot ideas like this one, really thinking hard about ways to prevent terrorism, to get information.
BEGALA: Well, they ought to fire Poindexter. And the only reason he didn't go to prison, it was overturned on a technicality.
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: He's the guy who tried to spy on us the last time he had a bright idea. Bush should fire Poindexter or we should fire Bush.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm sure all three viewers who remember Mr. Poindexter agree with you.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And now to domestic politics. Labor unions, vegetarians, assistant professors of sociology at second-rate community colleges, yes, those are the traditional constituencies of the Democratic Party. (LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, to that list add yet another group, yes, men who go to work dressed in women's clothing. For years, you've known them as transvestites or cross-dressers or, simply, as that chick with the razor stubble.
As of yesterday, however, in the progressive state of Pennsylvania, they have a new name, an officially protected class. Democratic Governor Ed Rendell signed an executive order last night making it illegal for the state to discriminate against men who wear high heels in public. The response was immediate and joyful. From Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, Liza Minnelli impersonators rose as one to thank the governor for taking a stand on their behalf, all of which raises the question: Can you even imagine what the floor scene at the Democratic Convention in Boston is going to look like a year from now? Stay tuned.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Look, you know...
CARLSON: I'm sorry Paul. I'm not anti-gay. You'll never hear me attack gay people. But guys who dress up as girls, wear women's underwear, I'm sorry, that's embarrassing.
BEGALA: How about...
CARLSON: It's ridiculous.
BEGALA: How about guys who were AWOL from the National Guard and dress up like fighters? That's much more outrageous to me...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh...
BEGALA: ... than some guy who wants to wear a dress and heels. No, seriously, you shouldn't get fired from your job because you dress up funny, whether it's George Bush or some guy in Pennsylvania.
CARLSON: If some dude shows up at your office in a bra, I would say, Come on. OK? If you want to do that at home, it's fine.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: George Bush wearing that silly getup on the aircraft carrier, just as goofy.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Don't you show up wearing that, Paul. (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Coming up next on CROSSFIRE: California Governor Gray Davis is getting closer to his exit interview with that state's voters. We'll debate the recall vote with prominent San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and the man behind the recall effort, Howard Kaloogian. We'll be right back.
But before then, all sorts of Republicans -- and that's not my script.
We're going to take a commercial break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Republicans are crawling out of the woodwork to talk about or actually enter the race to recall Democratic Governor Gray Davis out in California. Actor Arnold Schwarzenegger has not announced his decision yet. But if the Terminator does run, he will join a lot of other colorful characters in the cast, including a freeway rest stop caretaker, a high school kid who lost his student congress election, and a woman who sports her campaign slogan on her thong underwear.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate all of this, from San Francisco, that city's wonderful Democratic mayor, Willie Brown; and from Los Angeles, wonderful in his own right, Howard Kaloogian, chairman of the RecallGrayDavis.com group.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, thanks for joining us.
We have heard a lot from California Democrats about how the recall is this right-wing plot and Darrell Issa is evil and all the rest. But I would like to hear a succinct explanation for what's wrong with allowing the voters of California, the people of California, in the most democratic possible way, to exercise their choice for who ought to be governor this fall.
WILLIE BROWN, MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: They did.
They did it last November, when regular elections were held and nine million people cast votes. There was no mystery about who the candidates were. They had campaigned for more than a year. Mr. Gray Davis won. He won fair and square. And, almost instantly, a group of people who had lost decided that they would use the ploy of a recall, an untested and untried and without-foundation new instrument, that, if successful this time, will become the order of the day in this wacko state.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian, let me ask you to respond. The problem in California, I am told, is a massive budget deficit. How does wasting $60 million of taxpayers' money on a recall election fix the deficit?
(APPLAUSE)
HOWARD KALOOGIAN, RECALLGRAYDAVIS.COM: Paul, I'm surprised. This is the first time I've ever known you to not be for government spending. I guess if we...
BEGALA: Hey, I worked for Bill Clinton. We balanced the budget, brother. We know something about balancing budgets. It's the Republicans who
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KALOOGIAN: I'm so glad. I'm so glad.
Here in California, we have this right of recall, because it's like the parliamentary system, which is where you have a vote of no confidence. Frankly, we no longer have confidence that this man has the ability to govern our state properly. He hid the size of the budget deficit. He started with a $12 billion surplus. And then four years later, after revenues went up 28 percent, he turned it into a $38 billion deficit and neglected to mention that while he was campaigning last year. With that new information, we'd like to see him gone.
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Mayor, almost nobody, maybe with the exception of his wife, really likes Governor Davis. I bet even you, even in your heart, you'd admit to the tiniest bit of contempt for the governor. Given that, I wonder why Democrats are doing his bidding, lining up like good soldiers and agreeing not to throw their names in the ring. Why would you do that for someone who obviously doesn't care about his party?
BROWN: Because we know that this -- we know this is not a parliamentary system. We know it's not a perfect system.
We know that, when Democrats and Republicans and others compete against each other in a regular election, the person who wins it has a right to govern for the next four years, unless they do something that is tantamount to requiring them to be impeached. In this case, when Gray won, people who could not win a fair-and-square election start trying to figure out how to reduce the number of people who would participate in the voting process, not anything any differently than what had been done before.
And the results are, we're faced with a recall.
KALOOGIAN: Not at all. BROWN: Spending all this money, wasting all this money. And believe me, when you talk about what politicians do when they first campaign, how about George Bush? Look at the deficit that George Bush has now created, following Bill Clinton, who handed off to him which was a surplus.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian...
BROWN: It's all absolutely nonsense to suggest that somehow Gray Davis was singularly responsible for this deficit.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: He obviously is not. And he should not be eligible to be removed as a result of that. Just tell me. Do it fair and square. Do it up front, like any proper American would do it, and then let the chips fall where they may.
BEGALA: OK, Mr. Brown, let me let Mr. Kaloogian respond.
Howard, it is true, if it's sauce for the goose, it's sauce for the gander, right? If we can recall Gray Davis for a $40 billion budget deficit, can't we recall George Bush for $500 billion deficit?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KALOOGIAN: I see that the mayor -- I see that the mayor has retained his same procedures that he used when he was my speaker in the state assembly. And he knows how to dominate the microphone.
But, frankly, he knows, because -- as being speaker, at any time, he was subject to losing that leadership position when there was a vote. And here, we are going to have a vote again, because over two million people have signed petitions now. And, frankly, 30 to 35 percent of those are Democrats. And there are a number that are independent, and Peace and Freedom, and Green Party, as well as Republicans.
That's because we no longer have confidence that Gray Davis can govern our state. He has tripled our car tax recently. He's run up this huge deficit. He's given us an energy crisis. And his last legacy will be the first governor to be recalled, even though this is a very old procedure in our Constitution. It has been tried around since 1911. It's been tried 32 times before. But it's never succeeded before of getting to a ballot. And that's because never before have we had a governor this bad.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Wait, Mr. Mayor, you are friends with the actor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who may or may not put his hat in. But I wonder if you are going to willing to honest with us enough to admit he would be a better governor than Gray Davis, wouldn't he?
BROWN: No, he would not be a better governor than Gray Davis, not by a long shot, nor would Howard Kaloogian be a better governor than Gray Davis, nor would Darrell Issa, nor would Bill Simon, nor would Tom McClintock.
CARLSON: Why do the Democrats dislike Gray Davis so much?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Nor would any of the Republicans who have submitted their names.
Let me tell you, Gray Davis won this election fair and square. And you know that, Howard. And you also know, Howard, that he won for a fixed term. When I served as speaker, I served at the mercy of 41 people at any time they chose to dump me. I didn't have a term and I never did have a term. Had I had a term, it would have been pretty much set in place. And there's a reason why 32 times people tried. They didn't have Darrell Issa and all of his money.
The concept of a recall was to let citizens on a voluntary basis go about the neighborhoods and with their friends, not spending money. And, believe me, there would not be a recall now had Darrell Issa not shown up with the money trying to buy him a cheap seat in the process of pursuing the governorship, a governorship which could be changed by less than 10 percent of the total vote.
CARLSON: OK, Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry to cut you off. We are going to -- we are going to have to take a quick commercial break.
Mr. Brown and Mr. Kaloogian will return in just a moment.
Next, we take the debate to the next level as we head to "Rapid Fire". And later, in "Fireback," a viewer takes Paul Begala to task for his shabby treatment of a Democratic Party presidential candidate.
Plus, there's a verdict in the Inglewood, California, police beating case scene. And we'll bring it to you live coming up shortly.
So stay tuned. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
We return to our guests from California for our "Rapid Fire" segment that will be even quicker than Republicans want Governor Gray Davis' second term to be. That's pretty quick.
Democratic Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco; and from Los Angeles, Howard Kaloogian, the chairman of RecallGrayDavis.com.
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian, Arnold Schwarzenegger can't decide if he wants to run. Is it because steroids affects brain function?
(LAUGHTER)
KALOOGIAN: Well, I think the Arnold Schwarzenegger would be a fine candidate, if he chooses to run. But if he doesn't, we have a broad field of many candidates from the Republican Party, from the Democrat Party, libertarians, Peace and Freedom, Green Party. We'll have a wide selection of people to choose from.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, there's a rumor in Washington today that the Clintons, former president and Senator Clinton, might be coming to California on behalf of Gray Davis. Is that true?
BROWN: I hope so. Every Democrat in America should come into California and win this election, so that, in fact, the Republicans will have to find some other way to steal the governorship, as they stole the presidency.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian, the leader of the recall effort is Republican Congressman Darrell Issa. Just clarify something for me. How many times has Congressman Issa been arrested for auto theft and weapons charges? Just how many?
KALOOGIAN: The leader of the recall movement are the people of California who have signed these petitions. They're the ones who made it happen. We had 155,000 people circulate petitions. We had over two million people sign the petitions; 30 to 35 percent of them were Democrats. And, frankly, most people, including Democrats, want to see Gray Davis gone.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, no arguing that Gray Davis is exceedingly unpopular. Why do you think that is?
BROWN: I simply think that almost any politician that stays around as long as I've been around or as long as Gray Davis has been around makes lots of enemies. And, by the way, some of those enemies are sometimes switched to your friends.
In the case of Darrell Issa, I don't understand why Howard didn't answer the question. How many times, Howard, has he been busted for gun running and for stealing?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Oh, come -- now, personal peccadillos are no obstacle to service.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER) BEGALA: Howard Kaloogian and Willie Brown, the mayor of San Francisco and the leader of the Recall Gray Davis effort, thank you both for joining us for a fun debate.
KALOOGIAN: Thank you very much.
CARLSON: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It's time now, though, for our "Ask the Audience" question. And here's our question, a bit of trivia. Which is the only state to have successfully recalled its governor? In our studio audience here, take out the little voting devices we gave you when you came in. Press one if you think the only state is Florida. Press two if you think it's Minnesota, three if you think it's North Dakota. We will have the results for you right after the break.
And we're waiting to hear the verdict in that Inglewood, California, police beating case. It could come at any minute. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
But first, the answer to -- before we get to "Fireback," the answer to our audience question. What is the only other state to ever have effectively recalled the governor? Florida, say 18 percent of our audience. Minnesota, say 44 percent. And 38 percent, the particularly erudite portion of our audience, say North Dakota. In fact, that's true: Lynn Frazier.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Ah, 1921, if I recall, Tucker.
CARLSON: Yes.
BEGALA: We may see if that's the only time it will ever happen in history.
Our e-mail bag begins with a question on this -- a letter on this very topic: "If a poor economy, record unemployment, outrageous deficits, and a failure of all attempts to rectify this are grounds for recall of Governor Davis, where do I sign up to recall George Bush?"
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Tom Peach in Calhoun, Georgia. That was a question that Mr. Kaloogian didn't answer. CARLSON: Though not for lack of your asking it.
J.B. Larson of Friendswood, Texas, oh, writes to Paul: "Paul, I'm a fan of yours. I was very disappointed to see you so brusquely dismiss Representative Dennis Kucinich as a Democratic contender for the presidency. As Mr. Carlson so rightly said, Mr. Kucinich has a firm constituency that is ever-growing. I think you need to reconsider your brusque remarks."
BEGALA: Well, there you go, out of Friendswood, Texas, a lovely town.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Probably a fellow vegan.
BEGALA: ... by where I grew up.
I didn't mean to be brusque. I'm brusque with everybody, though. And you know what? Willie Nelson from Texas has endorsed Dennis Kucinich. That's good enough for me.
CARLSON: Amen. Me, too. I'm for Kucinich.
BEGALA: Dana Pierson of Dallas, Texas, writes: "I cannot believe that our tax dollars are being spent on a proposed futures market on terrorism. For the longest time, I have suspected the American people allowed the village idiot in the presidency. Now I think we sent an entire village of idiots to Washington."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And next up, Betty from Hopkinsville, Kentucky writes: "Tucker, you must have had a lot of time to talk with the Reverend Al Sharpton on your trip last week to Africa. Will he be giving you the vice president nod in the Sharpton administration?"
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: He might. I have asked for secretary of agriculture, but I might bump up my demands.
BEGALA: Agriculture. I thought it was Amtrak.
CARLSON: My prediction: No one will be mocking Al Sharpton six months from now.
BEGALA: You know, I can't wait to hear the stories of your trip from Africa. We should do a whole show on that.
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Brian Digg (ph) from Oakland, California.
My question is, would Bush have a better chance of capturing the state of California with Governor Davis in office?
CARLSON: I don't think there's any question. Nobody -- it's not a overstatement to say almost nobody but Mrs. Davis like Gray Davis. And so I think it would be very helpful for the president to have an inept, unpopular governor in office as he runs there, definitely.
BEGALA: Yes. It's interesting that the president hasn't weighed in on this, and he's supposed to be the leader of his party, certainly, and the leader of our country. It's our largest state. He ought to weigh in.
Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Jeremy (ph) from Houston, Texas.
I want to know, Paul, how many more times are the Democrats in Texas going to have to run away from the political process and let it work?
CARLSON: Crying, as they do, by the way.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No. You know what? They should stop -- how many times will Tom DeLay and those thugs try to overturn a valid map of our congressional districts for their own power politics?
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Not having run away to New Mexico, join us tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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Aired July 29, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Everybody from movie star Arnold Schwarzenegger to a woman selling thong underwear is talking about terminating the administration of California Governor Gray Davis. Is democracy working or breaking down?
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: I intend to be there every day for the rest of Gray's 100 days making his life and his departure a certainty.
GOV. GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: When my back is against the wall is when my juices start pumping, baby. And if those folks want a fight, bring it on.
ANNOUNCER: Plus: the Texas Democrats' latest run for the border -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
The circus is coming to California. It's getting a little hard to tell the elephants from the clowns. We will look at the Republicans' effort to recall California Governor Gray Davis this afternoon.
But first, we'll begin, as we always do, with the best political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
President Bush today rejected calls to release all of Congress' report on the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Democrats and Republicans alike have called upon Mr. Bush to come clean with the American people, but Mr. Bush today said no.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It makes no sense to declassify when we've got an ongoing investigation that could jeopardize that investigation. And it made no sense to declassify if -- during the war on terror, because it would help the enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: In other words, I think, if the truth comes out, the terrorists win.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush appears to be solid in his stonewall. I suppose that that figures. If he doesn't read the intelligence reports, I guess he figures no one else should either.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Shame on him.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Paul, as you know, having worked in the Clinton administration, that the default position of government at all levels in every administration is secrecy over openness. That's just the way government is.
BEGALA: That's a wise observation. I agree.
CARLSON: In this case, I think it's a shame. I think there is real concern about methods and sources of intelligence. But those are probably smaller than 28 pages. And they should release more, because it's going to get out anyway. This is Washington. Members of Congress have read it. It will be leaked. We will know in "The Washington Post" what it says. And I think the administration ought to take heart.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: I agree. We agree rarely, but, this time, we do.
CARLSON: Amen.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Texas Democrats have run away yet again. Eleven of the state's 12 Democratic senators fled to New Mexico yesterday, preventing the legislature there from solving the ongoing crisis over redistricting. Rather than digging into the tiresome, difficult task of actually running the state, the senators, like their House counterparts 2 1/2 months ago, have fled.
They've camped out in a hotel in Albuquerque, feasting on room service and holding self-righteous press conferences. (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Quote: "This is about civil rights," explained the head of the Democratic caucus, presumably between bites of shrimp cocktail.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Actually, it's about laziness and also about petulance. And, above all, it's about teaching the children of Texas a valuable lesson about adulthood. If you don't get precisely what you want, burst into tears and flee to another state.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, Tucker. God bless those Texas Democrats. God bless them.
The law is very clear. You're supposed to change your congressional districts every 10 years with the census. They did that the last time the Texas legislature met. Tom DeLay, the right-wing Republican who runs the Congress, is forcing this through for no good reason, except for his own power grab. God bless those Democrats who are trying to protect our rights.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Paul, they -- they have a partisan disagreement. To a large extent, it's an honest disagreement. They ought to fight it out like they do about everything else. You don't just run away in tears, throw your toys in the trash, and say, I'm not playing with you. That's what they're doing. And it's pathetic.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: So, what you do is, you come into...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No.
CARLSON: It's pathetic.
BEGALA: You come into the state. You overthrow a map that the federal courts drew that is perfectly fair?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Stay and fight, men. Come on.
BEGALA: Well, the Bush administration today did not stay and fight. They were forced to abandon yet another one of its bright ideas, that being an online wagering pool where people could bet on future acts of terrorism.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I am not making this up. Apparently, under President George W. Bush, terrorism is not merely to be exploited for political gain. It is to be wagered on for financial gain. When Senate Democrats pointed out that such a system could actually allow terrorists to profit from their evil acts, the administration backed down.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And, by the way, the man President Bush put in charge of this idea is retired Admiral John Poindexter, who we all remember was convicted of lying to Congress about another bright idea, shipping weapons to the Ayatollah Khomeini during the Iran-Contra days.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Somewhere, you just got to believe that virtue czar and chronic gambler Bill Bennett is silently weeping.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: The perfect deal for him.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Actually, Paul, truly, terrorists can and there's some evidence terrorists have profited from the open market in their acts of terrorism. This is one of those ideas that is both clever, maybe even slightly brilliant, but also demented, obviously, a bad idea. It no longer exists, thanks largely, really, to Democrats on the Hill.
But I'm glad that the administration really is thinking big, even if sometimes they come up with slightly crackpot ideas like this one, really thinking hard about ways to prevent terrorism, to get information.
BEGALA: Well, they ought to fire Poindexter. And the only reason he didn't go to prison, it was overturned on a technicality.
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: He's the guy who tried to spy on us the last time he had a bright idea. Bush should fire Poindexter or we should fire Bush.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm sure all three viewers who remember Mr. Poindexter agree with you.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And now to domestic politics. Labor unions, vegetarians, assistant professors of sociology at second-rate community colleges, yes, those are the traditional constituencies of the Democratic Party. (LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, to that list add yet another group, yes, men who go to work dressed in women's clothing. For years, you've known them as transvestites or cross-dressers or, simply, as that chick with the razor stubble.
As of yesterday, however, in the progressive state of Pennsylvania, they have a new name, an officially protected class. Democratic Governor Ed Rendell signed an executive order last night making it illegal for the state to discriminate against men who wear high heels in public. The response was immediate and joyful. From Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, Liza Minnelli impersonators rose as one to thank the governor for taking a stand on their behalf, all of which raises the question: Can you even imagine what the floor scene at the Democratic Convention in Boston is going to look like a year from now? Stay tuned.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Look, you know...
CARLSON: I'm sorry Paul. I'm not anti-gay. You'll never hear me attack gay people. But guys who dress up as girls, wear women's underwear, I'm sorry, that's embarrassing.
BEGALA: How about...
CARLSON: It's ridiculous.
BEGALA: How about guys who were AWOL from the National Guard and dress up like fighters? That's much more outrageous to me...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh...
BEGALA: ... than some guy who wants to wear a dress and heels. No, seriously, you shouldn't get fired from your job because you dress up funny, whether it's George Bush or some guy in Pennsylvania.
CARLSON: If some dude shows up at your office in a bra, I would say, Come on. OK? If you want to do that at home, it's fine.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: George Bush wearing that silly getup on the aircraft carrier, just as goofy.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Don't you show up wearing that, Paul. (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Coming up next on CROSSFIRE: California Governor Gray Davis is getting closer to his exit interview with that state's voters. We'll debate the recall vote with prominent San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and the man behind the recall effort, Howard Kaloogian. We'll be right back.
But before then, all sorts of Republicans -- and that's not my script.
We're going to take a commercial break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Republicans are crawling out of the woodwork to talk about or actually enter the race to recall Democratic Governor Gray Davis out in California. Actor Arnold Schwarzenegger has not announced his decision yet. But if the Terminator does run, he will join a lot of other colorful characters in the cast, including a freeway rest stop caretaker, a high school kid who lost his student congress election, and a woman who sports her campaign slogan on her thong underwear.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate all of this, from San Francisco, that city's wonderful Democratic mayor, Willie Brown; and from Los Angeles, wonderful in his own right, Howard Kaloogian, chairman of the RecallGrayDavis.com group.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, thanks for joining us.
We have heard a lot from California Democrats about how the recall is this right-wing plot and Darrell Issa is evil and all the rest. But I would like to hear a succinct explanation for what's wrong with allowing the voters of California, the people of California, in the most democratic possible way, to exercise their choice for who ought to be governor this fall.
WILLIE BROWN, MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: They did.
They did it last November, when regular elections were held and nine million people cast votes. There was no mystery about who the candidates were. They had campaigned for more than a year. Mr. Gray Davis won. He won fair and square. And, almost instantly, a group of people who had lost decided that they would use the ploy of a recall, an untested and untried and without-foundation new instrument, that, if successful this time, will become the order of the day in this wacko state.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian, let me ask you to respond. The problem in California, I am told, is a massive budget deficit. How does wasting $60 million of taxpayers' money on a recall election fix the deficit?
(APPLAUSE)
HOWARD KALOOGIAN, RECALLGRAYDAVIS.COM: Paul, I'm surprised. This is the first time I've ever known you to not be for government spending. I guess if we...
BEGALA: Hey, I worked for Bill Clinton. We balanced the budget, brother. We know something about balancing budgets. It's the Republicans who
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KALOOGIAN: I'm so glad. I'm so glad.
Here in California, we have this right of recall, because it's like the parliamentary system, which is where you have a vote of no confidence. Frankly, we no longer have confidence that this man has the ability to govern our state properly. He hid the size of the budget deficit. He started with a $12 billion surplus. And then four years later, after revenues went up 28 percent, he turned it into a $38 billion deficit and neglected to mention that while he was campaigning last year. With that new information, we'd like to see him gone.
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Mayor, almost nobody, maybe with the exception of his wife, really likes Governor Davis. I bet even you, even in your heart, you'd admit to the tiniest bit of contempt for the governor. Given that, I wonder why Democrats are doing his bidding, lining up like good soldiers and agreeing not to throw their names in the ring. Why would you do that for someone who obviously doesn't care about his party?
BROWN: Because we know that this -- we know this is not a parliamentary system. We know it's not a perfect system.
We know that, when Democrats and Republicans and others compete against each other in a regular election, the person who wins it has a right to govern for the next four years, unless they do something that is tantamount to requiring them to be impeached. In this case, when Gray won, people who could not win a fair-and-square election start trying to figure out how to reduce the number of people who would participate in the voting process, not anything any differently than what had been done before.
And the results are, we're faced with a recall.
KALOOGIAN: Not at all. BROWN: Spending all this money, wasting all this money. And believe me, when you talk about what politicians do when they first campaign, how about George Bush? Look at the deficit that George Bush has now created, following Bill Clinton, who handed off to him which was a surplus.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian...
BROWN: It's all absolutely nonsense to suggest that somehow Gray Davis was singularly responsible for this deficit.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: He obviously is not. And he should not be eligible to be removed as a result of that. Just tell me. Do it fair and square. Do it up front, like any proper American would do it, and then let the chips fall where they may.
BEGALA: OK, Mr. Brown, let me let Mr. Kaloogian respond.
Howard, it is true, if it's sauce for the goose, it's sauce for the gander, right? If we can recall Gray Davis for a $40 billion budget deficit, can't we recall George Bush for $500 billion deficit?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KALOOGIAN: I see that the mayor -- I see that the mayor has retained his same procedures that he used when he was my speaker in the state assembly. And he knows how to dominate the microphone.
But, frankly, he knows, because -- as being speaker, at any time, he was subject to losing that leadership position when there was a vote. And here, we are going to have a vote again, because over two million people have signed petitions now. And, frankly, 30 to 35 percent of those are Democrats. And there are a number that are independent, and Peace and Freedom, and Green Party, as well as Republicans.
That's because we no longer have confidence that Gray Davis can govern our state. He has tripled our car tax recently. He's run up this huge deficit. He's given us an energy crisis. And his last legacy will be the first governor to be recalled, even though this is a very old procedure in our Constitution. It has been tried around since 1911. It's been tried 32 times before. But it's never succeeded before of getting to a ballot. And that's because never before have we had a governor this bad.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Wait, Mr. Mayor, you are friends with the actor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who may or may not put his hat in. But I wonder if you are going to willing to honest with us enough to admit he would be a better governor than Gray Davis, wouldn't he?
BROWN: No, he would not be a better governor than Gray Davis, not by a long shot, nor would Howard Kaloogian be a better governor than Gray Davis, nor would Darrell Issa, nor would Bill Simon, nor would Tom McClintock.
CARLSON: Why do the Democrats dislike Gray Davis so much?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Nor would any of the Republicans who have submitted their names.
Let me tell you, Gray Davis won this election fair and square. And you know that, Howard. And you also know, Howard, that he won for a fixed term. When I served as speaker, I served at the mercy of 41 people at any time they chose to dump me. I didn't have a term and I never did have a term. Had I had a term, it would have been pretty much set in place. And there's a reason why 32 times people tried. They didn't have Darrell Issa and all of his money.
The concept of a recall was to let citizens on a voluntary basis go about the neighborhoods and with their friends, not spending money. And, believe me, there would not be a recall now had Darrell Issa not shown up with the money trying to buy him a cheap seat in the process of pursuing the governorship, a governorship which could be changed by less than 10 percent of the total vote.
CARLSON: OK, Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry to cut you off. We are going to -- we are going to have to take a quick commercial break.
Mr. Brown and Mr. Kaloogian will return in just a moment.
Next, we take the debate to the next level as we head to "Rapid Fire". And later, in "Fireback," a viewer takes Paul Begala to task for his shabby treatment of a Democratic Party presidential candidate.
Plus, there's a verdict in the Inglewood, California, police beating case scene. And we'll bring it to you live coming up shortly.
So stay tuned. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
We return to our guests from California for our "Rapid Fire" segment that will be even quicker than Republicans want Governor Gray Davis' second term to be. That's pretty quick.
Democratic Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco; and from Los Angeles, Howard Kaloogian, the chairman of RecallGrayDavis.com.
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian, Arnold Schwarzenegger can't decide if he wants to run. Is it because steroids affects brain function?
(LAUGHTER)
KALOOGIAN: Well, I think the Arnold Schwarzenegger would be a fine candidate, if he chooses to run. But if he doesn't, we have a broad field of many candidates from the Republican Party, from the Democrat Party, libertarians, Peace and Freedom, Green Party. We'll have a wide selection of people to choose from.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, there's a rumor in Washington today that the Clintons, former president and Senator Clinton, might be coming to California on behalf of Gray Davis. Is that true?
BROWN: I hope so. Every Democrat in America should come into California and win this election, so that, in fact, the Republicans will have to find some other way to steal the governorship, as they stole the presidency.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Kaloogian, the leader of the recall effort is Republican Congressman Darrell Issa. Just clarify something for me. How many times has Congressman Issa been arrested for auto theft and weapons charges? Just how many?
KALOOGIAN: The leader of the recall movement are the people of California who have signed these petitions. They're the ones who made it happen. We had 155,000 people circulate petitions. We had over two million people sign the petitions; 30 to 35 percent of them were Democrats. And, frankly, most people, including Democrats, want to see Gray Davis gone.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, no arguing that Gray Davis is exceedingly unpopular. Why do you think that is?
BROWN: I simply think that almost any politician that stays around as long as I've been around or as long as Gray Davis has been around makes lots of enemies. And, by the way, some of those enemies are sometimes switched to your friends.
In the case of Darrell Issa, I don't understand why Howard didn't answer the question. How many times, Howard, has he been busted for gun running and for stealing?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Oh, come -- now, personal peccadillos are no obstacle to service.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER) BEGALA: Howard Kaloogian and Willie Brown, the mayor of San Francisco and the leader of the Recall Gray Davis effort, thank you both for joining us for a fun debate.
KALOOGIAN: Thank you very much.
CARLSON: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It's time now, though, for our "Ask the Audience" question. And here's our question, a bit of trivia. Which is the only state to have successfully recalled its governor? In our studio audience here, take out the little voting devices we gave you when you came in. Press one if you think the only state is Florida. Press two if you think it's Minnesota, three if you think it's North Dakota. We will have the results for you right after the break.
And we're waiting to hear the verdict in that Inglewood, California, police beating case. It could come at any minute. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
But first, the answer to -- before we get to "Fireback," the answer to our audience question. What is the only other state to ever have effectively recalled the governor? Florida, say 18 percent of our audience. Minnesota, say 44 percent. And 38 percent, the particularly erudite portion of our audience, say North Dakota. In fact, that's true: Lynn Frazier.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Ah, 1921, if I recall, Tucker.
CARLSON: Yes.
BEGALA: We may see if that's the only time it will ever happen in history.
Our e-mail bag begins with a question on this -- a letter on this very topic: "If a poor economy, record unemployment, outrageous deficits, and a failure of all attempts to rectify this are grounds for recall of Governor Davis, where do I sign up to recall George Bush?"
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Tom Peach in Calhoun, Georgia. That was a question that Mr. Kaloogian didn't answer. CARLSON: Though not for lack of your asking it.
J.B. Larson of Friendswood, Texas, oh, writes to Paul: "Paul, I'm a fan of yours. I was very disappointed to see you so brusquely dismiss Representative Dennis Kucinich as a Democratic contender for the presidency. As Mr. Carlson so rightly said, Mr. Kucinich has a firm constituency that is ever-growing. I think you need to reconsider your brusque remarks."
BEGALA: Well, there you go, out of Friendswood, Texas, a lovely town.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Probably a fellow vegan.
BEGALA: ... by where I grew up.
I didn't mean to be brusque. I'm brusque with everybody, though. And you know what? Willie Nelson from Texas has endorsed Dennis Kucinich. That's good enough for me.
CARLSON: Amen. Me, too. I'm for Kucinich.
BEGALA: Dana Pierson of Dallas, Texas, writes: "I cannot believe that our tax dollars are being spent on a proposed futures market on terrorism. For the longest time, I have suspected the American people allowed the village idiot in the presidency. Now I think we sent an entire village of idiots to Washington."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And next up, Betty from Hopkinsville, Kentucky writes: "Tucker, you must have had a lot of time to talk with the Reverend Al Sharpton on your trip last week to Africa. Will he be giving you the vice president nod in the Sharpton administration?"
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: He might. I have asked for secretary of agriculture, but I might bump up my demands.
BEGALA: Agriculture. I thought it was Amtrak.
CARLSON: My prediction: No one will be mocking Al Sharpton six months from now.
BEGALA: You know, I can't wait to hear the stories of your trip from Africa. We should do a whole show on that.
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Brian Digg (ph) from Oakland, California.
My question is, would Bush have a better chance of capturing the state of California with Governor Davis in office?
CARLSON: I don't think there's any question. Nobody -- it's not a overstatement to say almost nobody but Mrs. Davis like Gray Davis. And so I think it would be very helpful for the president to have an inept, unpopular governor in office as he runs there, definitely.
BEGALA: Yes. It's interesting that the president hasn't weighed in on this, and he's supposed to be the leader of his party, certainly, and the leader of our country. It's our largest state. He ought to weigh in.
Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Jeremy (ph) from Houston, Texas.
I want to know, Paul, how many more times are the Democrats in Texas going to have to run away from the political process and let it work?
CARLSON: Crying, as they do, by the way.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No. You know what? They should stop -- how many times will Tom DeLay and those thugs try to overturn a valid map of our congressional districts for their own power politics?
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Not having run away to New Mexico, join us tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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