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CNN Crossfire
Will Howard Dean Win Democratic Presidential Nomination?; Interview With Charlie Daniels
Aired August 04, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: He's made the covers of time and "Newsweek." Now comes the hard part. Can Howard Dean win the Democratic nomination and the White House?
Plus: Charlie Daniels fiddles around with a book -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Howard Dean is being called the Democrats' flavor of the month. He is certainly the man of the week, gracing the covers of both "TIME" and "Newsweek" magazines this week. We'll talk about that. And we'll also talk to country singer Charlie Daniels, who is on the cover of his own new book. It's called "Ain't No Rag."
But, before we get to them, we will give you the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
"The Washington Post" today reports that the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, has informed the White House that he will leave the Bush administration in 2005 if Mr. Bush wins the 2004 election. Powell is seen as the most-credible person in the scandal-plagued Bush foreign policy team. Mr. Bush, Vice president Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Defense Department official Paul Wolfowitz all have been implicated in allegations that they misled the American people by exaggerating or even inventing the threat posed by Saddam Hussein.
Of course, the perfect replacement for Powell is a man President Bush has already dubbed "my man," former Iraqi spokesman and professional liar Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf. So he's got...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: That's a joke. That's a joke, right?
BEGALA: I say it's the perfect guy. It is a joke, though.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: But it's a joke. So thank you.
BEGALA: But...
NOVAK: You know, Paul, I don't know where you have been the last 2 1/2 years, but everybody in this town knows that Colin Powell was going to only serve one term and one term only. The reason they know is, he tells everybody that. I think this is being brought up now to try to get some kind of leverage against President Bush in his reelection campaign. And so I'm not fooled by it.
BEGALA: He's the only person in that pack of fibbers that anybody has any confidence in. If President Bush allows him to get away -- first off, you are not going to have to worry too much about a second term if the economy and the occupation keep going down like this.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: But he's a, by God, American hero. And it's a shame he's leaving.
NOVAK: Eight-one-year-old Democratic Senator Ernest Fritz Hollings of South Carolina will not seek a seventh term next year. That probably adds another Republican senator from the deep South. No other Democrat is likely to win in the increasingly Republican South Carolina. And old Fritz would have had trouble himself.
If you can understand Hollings' deep Charleston brogue, his Senate speeches are not congenial, advocating trade protectionism and high taxes, sending forth a message of gloom and doom. But he will be missed. Almost -- amidst spic-and-span Democrats who mimic each other, Hollings is a real person, even if he almost always was wrong about everything.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: You are half right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Hollings is a great person and a real person. And he was right about almost everything; 20 years ago, he ran against Ronald Reagan and said the deficit was killing us. If he had won that election as president in '84, we might have had the Clinton boom and the Clinton surpluses 10 years earlier. He's a great American hero.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's also the author of the law that makes those corporations leave us alone on those annoying telemarketing calls.
NOVAK: Are you a trade protectionist? Do you go along with him?
BEGALA: I'm a Hollings man. I think he's a great man. He's a Traficant man.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're a trade protectionist. Do you agree with his views? Are you a high taxer, like he is?
BEGALA: We don't have to agree on everything. But he's a great...
NOVAK: Thank you. Thank you very much.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: You know what? No, we would have been a lot better off with Hollings than we ever were with Reagan and the Republicans. He's a great guy.
Well, anyway, moving on, "The Chicago Tribune" reports that lawmakers and analysts are increasingly scrutinizing the role Vice President Cheney played in allegedly strong-arming intelligence analysts to ignore evidence that did not support a war in Iraq and, in turn, overhyping evidence that did. A senior intelligence official from the Bush administration told "The Tribune" -- quote -- "Analysts certainly felt there was pressure, there was an outcome, and they were being driven to get stuff to support that outcome" -- unquote.
Cheney, who once said he didn't serve in the Vietnam War because he had -- quote -- "other priorities" in the '60s, apparently was more pro-war when someone else was going to fight it.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, Paul, you know, you only picked from the "Chicago Tribune" story the things that suit you.
Let me read this paragraph. This is from the "Chicago Tribune" story that you picked. "Officials at the CIA and the vice president's office have explained Cheney's personal visits to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, as a healthy indication of his attention to their work, not an attempt to skew conclusions to fit a policy goal of top- line"
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING) BEGALA: Then why did he only go the CIA, where they had information pro-war, and not to State Department, where they had critics?
NOVAK: Democrat -- Democrat Gray Davis, facing removal as governor as California, can't face the verdict of Californians.
Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, a Democrat, followed the law when enough voters signed petitions for the recall. Shelley set the recall election for October 7 to decide two questions: Should Davis be removed and who should replace him? Now Governor Davis' lawyers have gone to the Supreme Court of California demanding that the election be postponed until next March -- and get this -- that Davis go on ballot as his own replacement.
Is Gray Davis counting on the California Supreme Court to break the law, as the Florida Supreme Court did trying to make Al Gore president?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The Florida Supreme Court interpreted Florida law. But this is the Republican pattern now. They no longer believe in democracy in the conservative movement in America.
They over -- tried to overturn a presidential election with Clinton by trying to impeach him. Then they did overturn the election that Al Gore won. Now they're trying to overturn the election that Gray Davis won. In Texas, they're trying to overturn the election that all those congressmen won. It's an outrage. You all don't believe in democracy anymore.
(APPLAUSE)
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: OK.
Next, we'll ask whether Howard Dean is really the face of the Democratic Party. And then Charlie Daniels takes center stage to talk freedom, family and the flag.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Former Governor of Vermont Howard Dean has gone from "Howard who?" to Howard the hot. He led the Democratic presidential candidates in second-quarter fund-raising. And this week, he is on the cover of both "TIME" and "Newsweek." Republicans, though, say they are licking their chops over the prospect of a Dean-Bush race. And some of Dean's Democratic rivals say that nominating him is a one- way ticket to defeat. Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate all this: conservative strategist Bay Buchanan -- she is the president of the American Cause -- and Dean media consultant and Democratic strategist Steve McMahon.
Thank you all both.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, On this network yesterday, Senator Joe Lieberman, who was your party's very beloved standard-bearer for vice president in the last election, he commented on Howard Dean.
And let's listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's not the leader based on the record -- weak on defense, raising taxes on the middle class -- not the leader that America needs to meet the dual challenges to our security and our prosperity today, and he could well be a ticket to nowhere. He could take the Democratic Party out into the political wilderness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Into the wilderness, Steve, that's -- what do you say to that? That's really damning, isn't it?
STEVE MCMAHON, DEAN MEDIA CONSULTANT: Well, I think what you're going to start to see here is, the Democrats from Washington, who are slipping apparently and falling, lashing out at Howard Dean and trying to bring him down.
And the fact of the matter is that what Senator Lieberman is saying isn't exactly right. What Howard Dean has said to people is, you are going to have a choice to make. And the choice is going to be between health care for everybody that can never be taken away and the president's tax cut, fully funding special education and the education bill that the president passed without providing funding for or the tax cut, homeland security or the tax cut.
And that's a choice that Howard Dean thinks the American people are competent and prepared to make. And we think that, when they do make that choice, they'll choose a better America over tax cuts for wealthy people.
BEGALA: Bay, let me bring you into this. You are a strategist yourself. You've run presidential campaigns. My friend Steve and his colleagues running the Dean campaign are doing something rather bold. They're running TV commercials early in the race. Already in Iowa now, Howard Dean has run an ad.
Let me show you part of that and ask you to comment on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD) HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When you think about it, in the past 2 1/2 years, we've lost over 2.5 million jobs. And has anybody really stood up against George Bush and his policies? Don't you think it's time somebody did?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, this ad is actually running in Texas, so the president can enjoy it while he's on vacation in Crawford.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But isn't that what he's worried about, someone who actually will stand up to Bush?
BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: No, I don't think he's the least bit worried about Dean. And, in fact, I don't want to say anything that would discourage anyone from voting for Dean in the primary, because I can't think of a better thing for George Bush...
BEGALA: Why?
BUCHANAN: ... than to have Howard Dean become the nominee.
(APPLAUSE)
MCMAHON: Bay and I won't agree on much, but we both agree that Howard Dean is the best candidate to run against the president. And we'll find who is
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I can remember Republicans saying that...
BUCHANAN: Let me make a point.
BEGALA: ... they wanted to take on Clinton. Rich Bond, the head of the party, of your party, called him the failed governor of a small state. And he crushed Bush. Aren't you looking a little arrogant here?
BUCHANAN: Arrogant? That's one of the problems for Mr. Dean. He is arrogant. He's undisciplined. He's got a formula for disaster in a general election, because he shoots off at the hip. He hates -- he really hates George Bush. That come across as very mean-spirited. And it doesn't work against a guy as amicable as George Bush.
But the real issue he's going to have problems with is, women is a necessary vote for the Democrats. And security moms, of which I am one -- I was somebody against the war. But I like this president, because I feel, even though sometime he may make a mistake by being too cautious, he'll be there to defend us and make certain we're safe.
(CROSSTALK) MCMAHON: With all due respect, though, Bay, we need to be defended here at home. Every port is basically unprotected. Containers come in and 98 percent of them are never inspected. And private air security for chartered jets and for the things that Republicans like to fly around is absolutely nonexistent.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: And if you want to talk about security, Howard Dean is prepared to have that debate, because the governors are the first line of defense. The White House can provide funding, but the governors ultimately have to carry it out and protect the ports and the power supply.
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, I don't think Bay has ever been a Democrat, but I want you to listen to a couple of Democrats who are very prominent.
Martin Frost, congressman from Texas, very distinguished, he says: "We need a candidate who is credible on national security. I think Howard Dean has the appearance of being another McGovern."
And then Mark Penn, who was Bill Clinton's pollster, says: "A Dean nomination could again mean Democrats lose 49 out of 50 states."
That's devastating. These are really prominent Democrats attacking him.
MCMAHON: Are we surprised that Joe Lieberman's pollster is saying that Howard Dean is not the best nominee for the Democratic Party?
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: I mean, come on, Bob. You can do better than that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What about Martin Frost saying that?
MCMAHON: With respect to his security credentials, look, Howard Dean opposed the war in Iraq because was against a new policy of preemptive war, which didn't apparently bother the Republicans. Bay was against the war in Iraq.
Being against the war in Iraq is not a disqualifier to being president of the United States.
NOVAK: But...
MCMAHON: As long as you are prepared to defend this country. And Howard Dean is. He just doesn't think we should be going off into a unilateral war, where there's no imminent threat, apparently no weapons of mass destruction, or at least we haven't found them yet.
(APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
MCMAHON: And where is -- and where is Saddam Hussein? Where is Saddam Hussein?
BUCHANAN: You keep talking like that, it's going to hurt Howard Dean, because what happens out there is, perception is reality. And the perception is, he is soft on terrorism. That is what is going to be the No. 1 issue in the general election. And if the people and especially women perceive him soft on that, they won't vote for him on that, whether they like him on all these other issues or not.
BEGALA: But, Bay, let me ask you about another perception. And that is the perception that President Bush misled us.
Today's paper reports that his secretary of state, the one credible person in his government, is going to quit. Doesn't Howard Dean's perception of straight talk, which you saw in that ad, cut just right at Bush, who has given us nothing but double-talk?
BUCHANAN: You know, that's one of your favorite lines, is to talk about the president deceiving. The president hasn't deceived. He made some mistakes. He's admitted it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... lied about sex. He's lied about the war. He's lied about the economy, about the deficit, about the taxes.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: That's -- that's -- but let me -- let me tell you where, as a strategist -- first of all, I don't believe he lied. And I think the American people recognize that he has made some mistakes. And he's acknowledged those.
But, see, when you try to make him to be something he's not, like a deceitful man, then they see him and they realize he's a good person. You all did that with Reagan, tried to make him to be a scary person. Then they saw him and he's enormously likable. And he clobbered you guys. The same thing is going to happen.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Before we run out of time, I'm going to give you the most devastating quote from Howard Dean. That's after -- that's after the fall of Baghdad. And he said on May 9, "We've gotten rid of him," meaning Saddam Hussein. "I suppose that's a good thing."
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: And that quote...
NOVAK: Isn't that devastating? MCMAHON: No, it's not devastating.
That quote has been taken out of context repeatedly by people like you, Bob, with all due respect. And you know how much I love you.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: Howard Dean was talking about something that would take longer to explain than we have here on this show. But let me just say this.
When it comes to national security and defense, Howard Dean will be as strong a president as America needs. He'll defend this country. He will not engage in unilateral, reckless wars.
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: And he will have a foreign policy that Americans can once again be proud of.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, thank you very much.
Bay Buchanan.
A quick reminder: Howard Dean is Larry King's guest tonight on CNN. Be watching at 9:00 Eastern.
Right now, let's see what our audience thinks about Howard Dean's chances. Take out your voting devices and tell us, will Howard Dean win the Democratic nomination? Press one for, yes, the party that nominated George McGovern is perfectly capable of nominating Howard Dean. Or press two for, no, the Democrats will nominate another loser for president instead.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: We'll check the answers in a little bit.
But, first after Wolf Blitzer's headlines, we'll talk with musician, author and patriot Charlie Daniels.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Charlie Daniels is famous for singing "The Devil Went Down to Georgia." Now, in a new book, Daniels tells us what the devil is wrong with America. It's called "Ain't No Rag: Freedom, Family and the Flag." Charlie Daniels next in the CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Mr. Daniels, thank you very much for joining us.
CHARLIE DANIELS, AUTHOR, "AIN'T NO RAG": Thank you, sir.
BEGALA: Congratulations on the book.
DANIELS: Thank you.
BEGALA: And on the record. They are unabashedly pro-war in Iraq. I opposed that war.
DANIELS: No, they're not pro-war. It's pro-common sense, is what it is.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, you supported the war.
DANIELS: Yes, I did.
BEGALA: I'm curious, then -- I'm curious what percentage of the proceeds of this is going to go to the families of the men who gave their lives in that war.
DANIELS: Just about the same percentage as your salary is going to go to them.
BEGALA: I opposed that war. I didn't want any of them to die over there, Mr. Daniels.
DANIELS: Hey, I didn't want any of them to die over there either.
But here's the situation, Mr. Begala, from the way I see it, the way I look at it. I go by what I call cowboy logic. You are from Texas. You ought to understand that.
BEGALA: Sure.
DANIELS: Water never runs uphill. Two and two is always four. And where there is smoke, there is some fire somewhere.
Now, to me, the war in Iraq is a war against terrorism, either now or later. Did the man have weapons of mass destruction? Did he?
BEGALA: Where are they?
DANIELS: Where are they? Did he have them? I don't know where they are. We are going to find them, probably. But he did have them, right? You did know that?
BEGALA: Our president said he did. And a lot of us believed him.
DANIELS: No. Your president -- your president said he did. Mr...
BEGALA: Hey, Mr. Bush is my president as well. And President Clinton was yours as well, Mr. Daniels.
DANIELS: Well, OK. Well, then our...
BEGALA: We've been promised since they were there. We've had 150,000 men looking for 2 1/2 months. They ain't found nothing yet.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
DANIELS: Don't get your blood pressure up.
BEGALA: I'm just asking.
DANIELS: OK.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right, Mr. Daniels, from your book, I want to put up a little line and put it on the screen.
DANIELS: OK.
NOVAK: And you talk about a "bunch of pitiful, hypocritical, idiotic, spoiled mugwumps." Who are you talking about?
(LAUGHTER)
DANIELS: I was talking about the people in Hollywood who are -- and let me say this before we go any further. I don't have anything against anybody protesting anything. I've protested some things in my lifetime before. And I believe it's everybody's perfect right to do that.
But the way these people went about it, all the signs that I saw in the street were accusing Mr. Bush of being Hitler. These people are too young to remember Hitler. Hitler is real to me. I'm 66 years old. I remember what Hitler was about. He was evil personified.
And Sean Penn going to -- what if John Wayne had gone to Nazi Germany in 1941? Would that not have demoralized the country? All the -- this was not an anti-war protest. It was an anti-Bush protest.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Do you think the Dixie Chicks ought to be boycotted for what they did?
DANIELS: Well, that's up to everybody's individual tastes what they want to do.
NOVAK: What do you think?
DANIELS: Well, I'm very much against the statement that Natalie made. I don't -- but here is another thing, too. I know those girls. And there is three people in that band and we've only heard from one of them. So I don't know what the other two think. So I kind of -- I don't -- I'm -- I don't -- I'm very much against what she said.
BEGALA: But, see, what I like is that they have that courage of their convictions to speak their mind, as do you. Some people believe that nobody in the entertainment field should ever speak out, whether they're liberal or conservative. I admire anybody who does.
But I do have a bone to pick with you about a friend of mine who you attack in your book.
DANIELS: OK.
BEGALA: Zell Miller, former governor of Georgia, now a senator from Georgia, you write a column in here that attacks Zell Miller because he wanted to give C.D.s of classical music to the mothers of new children.
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: ... giving C.D.s of country music to
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, he's country music fan, by the way. But he did that based on some scientific research. But you attack him because you say the government shouldn't be spending money on that. But all you had to do was look at the Zell's Web site and you knew that the government didn't spend a dime on it. He got Sony to give C.D.s for free.
Now, don't you have an obligation to get your facts straight?
DANIELS: Well, I sure do.
BEGALA: Can you apologize to Zell Miller, then?
DANIELS: Zell, I'm sorry as heck, man. I really am. But...
BEGALA: God bless you. God bless you.
(APPLAUSE)
DANIELS: Can I say this?
BEGALA: I'll tell you, that's...
NOVAK: I got a quick question.
DANIELS: OK.
NOVAK: Is the press -- I know the answer to this, but I want to see if you do.
DANIELS: OK.
NOVAK: Is press too liberal?
DANIELS: Yes, sir.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Were they too soft on Clinton?
DANIELS: Well, you know, the thing is to me with the press is like, it's supposed to be reporting the news. And it's leaning -- I had a conversation with a very noted liberal about this a while back. And I said, the press leans left. He said, no, it don't. And he was doing this the whole time. So...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Charlie Daniels.
DANIELS: Yes, sir.
BEGALA: Author of the new book "Ain't No Rag: Freedom, Family and the Flag" thank you very much for stepping in the CROSSFIRE.
DANIELS: Thank you, sir. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Charlie Daniels, ladies and gentlemen.
In just a minute, we'll have the answer to our audience question as well. We had asked whether Howard Dean has a chance of winning the Democratic nomination. We'll have that result for you in a minute.
And, in "Fireback," one of our viewers offers his prognosis for Governor Dean's presidential candidacy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It's "Fireback," when viewers talk to us.
But, first, the results of our audience poll. Will Dean win the Democratic nomination? Big difference in the parties. Republicans don't think so, 83 to 17. The Democrats, to my surprise, think he will, 60 to 40.
BEGALA: You know, 60 percent among Democrats is pretty darn good.
NOVAK: Yes. BEGALA: Go to our e-mail bag here.
Derek in Gilbert, Arizona, writes: "Howard Dean is just what the doctor ordered. Democrats are starting to pay attention again. And they're getting energized. If the nominee is Dean or any of the other honorable candidates that have stepped forward, you can be assured of one thing, Mr. Novak, that Mr. Bush's next extended trip to Crawford will be permanent."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That's -- that's very final, isn't it?
OK, Dwayne Howe of Milton, Washington, says: "While you continuously downplay the importance of Dennis Kucinich, you seem to be overlooking the fact that he offers a clear alternative to Bush and Cheney. The other Democrats are just Republican-lite. Dean is so wishy-washy, always changing with the latest poll, that you can't trust him."
For the Democrats, there's always somebody farther to the left. And it's Dennis Kucinich this year.
BEGALA: Well, Kucinich has the support of Willie Nelson, another great country music. We've got to get Willie to come on the show, after Charlie Daniels did.
NOVAK: Question?
BEGALA: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. My name is Richard. I'm from Silver Spring.
Provided that Howard Dean wins the Democratic nomination, what do you think he will have to do to bring over moderate voters, so he can win the general election?
NOVAK: Well, I'll give you an answer. But you are from Silver Spring, Maryland, for the uninitiated around the country. I would say that he will have to pivot, he will have to pivot. And that is the hardest thing for AN ideological candidate to do, toward the center.
BEGALA: Well, he won't have to pivot as much as Bush, who, in the primaries, went to Bob Jones University, the basis of anti- Catholicism in the state of South Carolina, and somehow was able to pretend that he was a uniter in the general election.
Yes, sir?
NOVAK: Time for one more question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Tom. I'm from Washington, D.C. And I wonder why do you label Dean a liberal, when he was clearly a fiscal conservative as governor of Vermont? He left the state with a balanced budget.
NOVAK: He raised the hell out of taxes, Mr. Washington, D.C. But being from this city, you don't even know the difference.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, the difference is that Democrats like Bill Clinton, when they ran the economy, gave us a balanced budget. And Bush has blown that so he can give tax breaks to the rich. I think we were all better off when rich people were paying their fair share and the economy was strong. So call me crazy.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, I would like to have you pay more and me less. How about that?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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Interview With Charlie Daniels>
Aired August 4, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: He's made the covers of time and "Newsweek." Now comes the hard part. Can Howard Dean win the Democratic nomination and the White House?
Plus: Charlie Daniels fiddles around with a book -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Howard Dean is being called the Democrats' flavor of the month. He is certainly the man of the week, gracing the covers of both "TIME" and "Newsweek" magazines this week. We'll talk about that. And we'll also talk to country singer Charlie Daniels, who is on the cover of his own new book. It's called "Ain't No Rag."
But, before we get to them, we will give you the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
"The Washington Post" today reports that the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, has informed the White House that he will leave the Bush administration in 2005 if Mr. Bush wins the 2004 election. Powell is seen as the most-credible person in the scandal-plagued Bush foreign policy team. Mr. Bush, Vice president Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Defense Department official Paul Wolfowitz all have been implicated in allegations that they misled the American people by exaggerating or even inventing the threat posed by Saddam Hussein.
Of course, the perfect replacement for Powell is a man President Bush has already dubbed "my man," former Iraqi spokesman and professional liar Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf. So he's got...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: That's a joke. That's a joke, right?
BEGALA: I say it's the perfect guy. It is a joke, though.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: But it's a joke. So thank you.
BEGALA: But...
NOVAK: You know, Paul, I don't know where you have been the last 2 1/2 years, but everybody in this town knows that Colin Powell was going to only serve one term and one term only. The reason they know is, he tells everybody that. I think this is being brought up now to try to get some kind of leverage against President Bush in his reelection campaign. And so I'm not fooled by it.
BEGALA: He's the only person in that pack of fibbers that anybody has any confidence in. If President Bush allows him to get away -- first off, you are not going to have to worry too much about a second term if the economy and the occupation keep going down like this.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: But he's a, by God, American hero. And it's a shame he's leaving.
NOVAK: Eight-one-year-old Democratic Senator Ernest Fritz Hollings of South Carolina will not seek a seventh term next year. That probably adds another Republican senator from the deep South. No other Democrat is likely to win in the increasingly Republican South Carolina. And old Fritz would have had trouble himself.
If you can understand Hollings' deep Charleston brogue, his Senate speeches are not congenial, advocating trade protectionism and high taxes, sending forth a message of gloom and doom. But he will be missed. Almost -- amidst spic-and-span Democrats who mimic each other, Hollings is a real person, even if he almost always was wrong about everything.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: You are half right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Hollings is a great person and a real person. And he was right about almost everything; 20 years ago, he ran against Ronald Reagan and said the deficit was killing us. If he had won that election as president in '84, we might have had the Clinton boom and the Clinton surpluses 10 years earlier. He's a great American hero.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's also the author of the law that makes those corporations leave us alone on those annoying telemarketing calls.
NOVAK: Are you a trade protectionist? Do you go along with him?
BEGALA: I'm a Hollings man. I think he's a great man. He's a Traficant man.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're a trade protectionist. Do you agree with his views? Are you a high taxer, like he is?
BEGALA: We don't have to agree on everything. But he's a great...
NOVAK: Thank you. Thank you very much.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: You know what? No, we would have been a lot better off with Hollings than we ever were with Reagan and the Republicans. He's a great guy.
Well, anyway, moving on, "The Chicago Tribune" reports that lawmakers and analysts are increasingly scrutinizing the role Vice President Cheney played in allegedly strong-arming intelligence analysts to ignore evidence that did not support a war in Iraq and, in turn, overhyping evidence that did. A senior intelligence official from the Bush administration told "The Tribune" -- quote -- "Analysts certainly felt there was pressure, there was an outcome, and they were being driven to get stuff to support that outcome" -- unquote.
Cheney, who once said he didn't serve in the Vietnam War because he had -- quote -- "other priorities" in the '60s, apparently was more pro-war when someone else was going to fight it.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, Paul, you know, you only picked from the "Chicago Tribune" story the things that suit you.
Let me read this paragraph. This is from the "Chicago Tribune" story that you picked. "Officials at the CIA and the vice president's office have explained Cheney's personal visits to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, as a healthy indication of his attention to their work, not an attempt to skew conclusions to fit a policy goal of top- line"
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING) BEGALA: Then why did he only go the CIA, where they had information pro-war, and not to State Department, where they had critics?
NOVAK: Democrat -- Democrat Gray Davis, facing removal as governor as California, can't face the verdict of Californians.
Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, a Democrat, followed the law when enough voters signed petitions for the recall. Shelley set the recall election for October 7 to decide two questions: Should Davis be removed and who should replace him? Now Governor Davis' lawyers have gone to the Supreme Court of California demanding that the election be postponed until next March -- and get this -- that Davis go on ballot as his own replacement.
Is Gray Davis counting on the California Supreme Court to break the law, as the Florida Supreme Court did trying to make Al Gore president?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The Florida Supreme Court interpreted Florida law. But this is the Republican pattern now. They no longer believe in democracy in the conservative movement in America.
They over -- tried to overturn a presidential election with Clinton by trying to impeach him. Then they did overturn the election that Al Gore won. Now they're trying to overturn the election that Gray Davis won. In Texas, they're trying to overturn the election that all those congressmen won. It's an outrage. You all don't believe in democracy anymore.
(APPLAUSE)
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: OK.
Next, we'll ask whether Howard Dean is really the face of the Democratic Party. And then Charlie Daniels takes center stage to talk freedom, family and the flag.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Former Governor of Vermont Howard Dean has gone from "Howard who?" to Howard the hot. He led the Democratic presidential candidates in second-quarter fund-raising. And this week, he is on the cover of both "TIME" and "Newsweek." Republicans, though, say they are licking their chops over the prospect of a Dean-Bush race. And some of Dean's Democratic rivals say that nominating him is a one- way ticket to defeat. Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate all this: conservative strategist Bay Buchanan -- she is the president of the American Cause -- and Dean media consultant and Democratic strategist Steve McMahon.
Thank you all both.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, On this network yesterday, Senator Joe Lieberman, who was your party's very beloved standard-bearer for vice president in the last election, he commented on Howard Dean.
And let's listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's not the leader based on the record -- weak on defense, raising taxes on the middle class -- not the leader that America needs to meet the dual challenges to our security and our prosperity today, and he could well be a ticket to nowhere. He could take the Democratic Party out into the political wilderness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Into the wilderness, Steve, that's -- what do you say to that? That's really damning, isn't it?
STEVE MCMAHON, DEAN MEDIA CONSULTANT: Well, I think what you're going to start to see here is, the Democrats from Washington, who are slipping apparently and falling, lashing out at Howard Dean and trying to bring him down.
And the fact of the matter is that what Senator Lieberman is saying isn't exactly right. What Howard Dean has said to people is, you are going to have a choice to make. And the choice is going to be between health care for everybody that can never be taken away and the president's tax cut, fully funding special education and the education bill that the president passed without providing funding for or the tax cut, homeland security or the tax cut.
And that's a choice that Howard Dean thinks the American people are competent and prepared to make. And we think that, when they do make that choice, they'll choose a better America over tax cuts for wealthy people.
BEGALA: Bay, let me bring you into this. You are a strategist yourself. You've run presidential campaigns. My friend Steve and his colleagues running the Dean campaign are doing something rather bold. They're running TV commercials early in the race. Already in Iowa now, Howard Dean has run an ad.
Let me show you part of that and ask you to comment on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD) HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When you think about it, in the past 2 1/2 years, we've lost over 2.5 million jobs. And has anybody really stood up against George Bush and his policies? Don't you think it's time somebody did?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, this ad is actually running in Texas, so the president can enjoy it while he's on vacation in Crawford.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But isn't that what he's worried about, someone who actually will stand up to Bush?
BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: No, I don't think he's the least bit worried about Dean. And, in fact, I don't want to say anything that would discourage anyone from voting for Dean in the primary, because I can't think of a better thing for George Bush...
BEGALA: Why?
BUCHANAN: ... than to have Howard Dean become the nominee.
(APPLAUSE)
MCMAHON: Bay and I won't agree on much, but we both agree that Howard Dean is the best candidate to run against the president. And we'll find who is
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I can remember Republicans saying that...
BUCHANAN: Let me make a point.
BEGALA: ... they wanted to take on Clinton. Rich Bond, the head of the party, of your party, called him the failed governor of a small state. And he crushed Bush. Aren't you looking a little arrogant here?
BUCHANAN: Arrogant? That's one of the problems for Mr. Dean. He is arrogant. He's undisciplined. He's got a formula for disaster in a general election, because he shoots off at the hip. He hates -- he really hates George Bush. That come across as very mean-spirited. And it doesn't work against a guy as amicable as George Bush.
But the real issue he's going to have problems with is, women is a necessary vote for the Democrats. And security moms, of which I am one -- I was somebody against the war. But I like this president, because I feel, even though sometime he may make a mistake by being too cautious, he'll be there to defend us and make certain we're safe.
(CROSSTALK) MCMAHON: With all due respect, though, Bay, we need to be defended here at home. Every port is basically unprotected. Containers come in and 98 percent of them are never inspected. And private air security for chartered jets and for the things that Republicans like to fly around is absolutely nonexistent.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: And if you want to talk about security, Howard Dean is prepared to have that debate, because the governors are the first line of defense. The White House can provide funding, but the governors ultimately have to carry it out and protect the ports and the power supply.
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, I don't think Bay has ever been a Democrat, but I want you to listen to a couple of Democrats who are very prominent.
Martin Frost, congressman from Texas, very distinguished, he says: "We need a candidate who is credible on national security. I think Howard Dean has the appearance of being another McGovern."
And then Mark Penn, who was Bill Clinton's pollster, says: "A Dean nomination could again mean Democrats lose 49 out of 50 states."
That's devastating. These are really prominent Democrats attacking him.
MCMAHON: Are we surprised that Joe Lieberman's pollster is saying that Howard Dean is not the best nominee for the Democratic Party?
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: I mean, come on, Bob. You can do better than that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What about Martin Frost saying that?
MCMAHON: With respect to his security credentials, look, Howard Dean opposed the war in Iraq because was against a new policy of preemptive war, which didn't apparently bother the Republicans. Bay was against the war in Iraq.
Being against the war in Iraq is not a disqualifier to being president of the United States.
NOVAK: But...
MCMAHON: As long as you are prepared to defend this country. And Howard Dean is. He just doesn't think we should be going off into a unilateral war, where there's no imminent threat, apparently no weapons of mass destruction, or at least we haven't found them yet.
(APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
MCMAHON: And where is -- and where is Saddam Hussein? Where is Saddam Hussein?
BUCHANAN: You keep talking like that, it's going to hurt Howard Dean, because what happens out there is, perception is reality. And the perception is, he is soft on terrorism. That is what is going to be the No. 1 issue in the general election. And if the people and especially women perceive him soft on that, they won't vote for him on that, whether they like him on all these other issues or not.
BEGALA: But, Bay, let me ask you about another perception. And that is the perception that President Bush misled us.
Today's paper reports that his secretary of state, the one credible person in his government, is going to quit. Doesn't Howard Dean's perception of straight talk, which you saw in that ad, cut just right at Bush, who has given us nothing but double-talk?
BUCHANAN: You know, that's one of your favorite lines, is to talk about the president deceiving. The president hasn't deceived. He made some mistakes. He's admitted it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... lied about sex. He's lied about the war. He's lied about the economy, about the deficit, about the taxes.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: That's -- that's -- but let me -- let me tell you where, as a strategist -- first of all, I don't believe he lied. And I think the American people recognize that he has made some mistakes. And he's acknowledged those.
But, see, when you try to make him to be something he's not, like a deceitful man, then they see him and they realize he's a good person. You all did that with Reagan, tried to make him to be a scary person. Then they saw him and he's enormously likable. And he clobbered you guys. The same thing is going to happen.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Before we run out of time, I'm going to give you the most devastating quote from Howard Dean. That's after -- that's after the fall of Baghdad. And he said on May 9, "We've gotten rid of him," meaning Saddam Hussein. "I suppose that's a good thing."
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: And that quote...
NOVAK: Isn't that devastating? MCMAHON: No, it's not devastating.
That quote has been taken out of context repeatedly by people like you, Bob, with all due respect. And you know how much I love you.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: Howard Dean was talking about something that would take longer to explain than we have here on this show. But let me just say this.
When it comes to national security and defense, Howard Dean will be as strong a president as America needs. He'll defend this country. He will not engage in unilateral, reckless wars.
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: And he will have a foreign policy that Americans can once again be proud of.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, thank you very much.
Bay Buchanan.
A quick reminder: Howard Dean is Larry King's guest tonight on CNN. Be watching at 9:00 Eastern.
Right now, let's see what our audience thinks about Howard Dean's chances. Take out your voting devices and tell us, will Howard Dean win the Democratic nomination? Press one for, yes, the party that nominated George McGovern is perfectly capable of nominating Howard Dean. Or press two for, no, the Democrats will nominate another loser for president instead.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: We'll check the answers in a little bit.
But, first after Wolf Blitzer's headlines, we'll talk with musician, author and patriot Charlie Daniels.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Charlie Daniels is famous for singing "The Devil Went Down to Georgia." Now, in a new book, Daniels tells us what the devil is wrong with America. It's called "Ain't No Rag: Freedom, Family and the Flag." Charlie Daniels next in the CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Mr. Daniels, thank you very much for joining us.
CHARLIE DANIELS, AUTHOR, "AIN'T NO RAG": Thank you, sir.
BEGALA: Congratulations on the book.
DANIELS: Thank you.
BEGALA: And on the record. They are unabashedly pro-war in Iraq. I opposed that war.
DANIELS: No, they're not pro-war. It's pro-common sense, is what it is.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, you supported the war.
DANIELS: Yes, I did.
BEGALA: I'm curious, then -- I'm curious what percentage of the proceeds of this is going to go to the families of the men who gave their lives in that war.
DANIELS: Just about the same percentage as your salary is going to go to them.
BEGALA: I opposed that war. I didn't want any of them to die over there, Mr. Daniels.
DANIELS: Hey, I didn't want any of them to die over there either.
But here's the situation, Mr. Begala, from the way I see it, the way I look at it. I go by what I call cowboy logic. You are from Texas. You ought to understand that.
BEGALA: Sure.
DANIELS: Water never runs uphill. Two and two is always four. And where there is smoke, there is some fire somewhere.
Now, to me, the war in Iraq is a war against terrorism, either now or later. Did the man have weapons of mass destruction? Did he?
BEGALA: Where are they?
DANIELS: Where are they? Did he have them? I don't know where they are. We are going to find them, probably. But he did have them, right? You did know that?
BEGALA: Our president said he did. And a lot of us believed him.
DANIELS: No. Your president -- your president said he did. Mr...
BEGALA: Hey, Mr. Bush is my president as well. And President Clinton was yours as well, Mr. Daniels.
DANIELS: Well, OK. Well, then our...
BEGALA: We've been promised since they were there. We've had 150,000 men looking for 2 1/2 months. They ain't found nothing yet.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
DANIELS: Don't get your blood pressure up.
BEGALA: I'm just asking.
DANIELS: OK.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right, Mr. Daniels, from your book, I want to put up a little line and put it on the screen.
DANIELS: OK.
NOVAK: And you talk about a "bunch of pitiful, hypocritical, idiotic, spoiled mugwumps." Who are you talking about?
(LAUGHTER)
DANIELS: I was talking about the people in Hollywood who are -- and let me say this before we go any further. I don't have anything against anybody protesting anything. I've protested some things in my lifetime before. And I believe it's everybody's perfect right to do that.
But the way these people went about it, all the signs that I saw in the street were accusing Mr. Bush of being Hitler. These people are too young to remember Hitler. Hitler is real to me. I'm 66 years old. I remember what Hitler was about. He was evil personified.
And Sean Penn going to -- what if John Wayne had gone to Nazi Germany in 1941? Would that not have demoralized the country? All the -- this was not an anti-war protest. It was an anti-Bush protest.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Do you think the Dixie Chicks ought to be boycotted for what they did?
DANIELS: Well, that's up to everybody's individual tastes what they want to do.
NOVAK: What do you think?
DANIELS: Well, I'm very much against the statement that Natalie made. I don't -- but here is another thing, too. I know those girls. And there is three people in that band and we've only heard from one of them. So I don't know what the other two think. So I kind of -- I don't -- I'm -- I don't -- I'm very much against what she said.
BEGALA: But, see, what I like is that they have that courage of their convictions to speak their mind, as do you. Some people believe that nobody in the entertainment field should ever speak out, whether they're liberal or conservative. I admire anybody who does.
But I do have a bone to pick with you about a friend of mine who you attack in your book.
DANIELS: OK.
BEGALA: Zell Miller, former governor of Georgia, now a senator from Georgia, you write a column in here that attacks Zell Miller because he wanted to give C.D.s of classical music to the mothers of new children.
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: ... giving C.D.s of country music to
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, he's country music fan, by the way. But he did that based on some scientific research. But you attack him because you say the government shouldn't be spending money on that. But all you had to do was look at the Zell's Web site and you knew that the government didn't spend a dime on it. He got Sony to give C.D.s for free.
Now, don't you have an obligation to get your facts straight?
DANIELS: Well, I sure do.
BEGALA: Can you apologize to Zell Miller, then?
DANIELS: Zell, I'm sorry as heck, man. I really am. But...
BEGALA: God bless you. God bless you.
(APPLAUSE)
DANIELS: Can I say this?
BEGALA: I'll tell you, that's...
NOVAK: I got a quick question.
DANIELS: OK.
NOVAK: Is the press -- I know the answer to this, but I want to see if you do.
DANIELS: OK.
NOVAK: Is press too liberal?
DANIELS: Yes, sir.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Were they too soft on Clinton?
DANIELS: Well, you know, the thing is to me with the press is like, it's supposed to be reporting the news. And it's leaning -- I had a conversation with a very noted liberal about this a while back. And I said, the press leans left. He said, no, it don't. And he was doing this the whole time. So...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Charlie Daniels.
DANIELS: Yes, sir.
BEGALA: Author of the new book "Ain't No Rag: Freedom, Family and the Flag" thank you very much for stepping in the CROSSFIRE.
DANIELS: Thank you, sir. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Charlie Daniels, ladies and gentlemen.
In just a minute, we'll have the answer to our audience question as well. We had asked whether Howard Dean has a chance of winning the Democratic nomination. We'll have that result for you in a minute.
And, in "Fireback," one of our viewers offers his prognosis for Governor Dean's presidential candidacy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It's "Fireback," when viewers talk to us.
But, first, the results of our audience poll. Will Dean win the Democratic nomination? Big difference in the parties. Republicans don't think so, 83 to 17. The Democrats, to my surprise, think he will, 60 to 40.
BEGALA: You know, 60 percent among Democrats is pretty darn good.
NOVAK: Yes. BEGALA: Go to our e-mail bag here.
Derek in Gilbert, Arizona, writes: "Howard Dean is just what the doctor ordered. Democrats are starting to pay attention again. And they're getting energized. If the nominee is Dean or any of the other honorable candidates that have stepped forward, you can be assured of one thing, Mr. Novak, that Mr. Bush's next extended trip to Crawford will be permanent."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That's -- that's very final, isn't it?
OK, Dwayne Howe of Milton, Washington, says: "While you continuously downplay the importance of Dennis Kucinich, you seem to be overlooking the fact that he offers a clear alternative to Bush and Cheney. The other Democrats are just Republican-lite. Dean is so wishy-washy, always changing with the latest poll, that you can't trust him."
For the Democrats, there's always somebody farther to the left. And it's Dennis Kucinich this year.
BEGALA: Well, Kucinich has the support of Willie Nelson, another great country music. We've got to get Willie to come on the show, after Charlie Daniels did.
NOVAK: Question?
BEGALA: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. My name is Richard. I'm from Silver Spring.
Provided that Howard Dean wins the Democratic nomination, what do you think he will have to do to bring over moderate voters, so he can win the general election?
NOVAK: Well, I'll give you an answer. But you are from Silver Spring, Maryland, for the uninitiated around the country. I would say that he will have to pivot, he will have to pivot. And that is the hardest thing for AN ideological candidate to do, toward the center.
BEGALA: Well, he won't have to pivot as much as Bush, who, in the primaries, went to Bob Jones University, the basis of anti- Catholicism in the state of South Carolina, and somehow was able to pretend that he was a uniter in the general election.
Yes, sir?
NOVAK: Time for one more question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Tom. I'm from Washington, D.C. And I wonder why do you label Dean a liberal, when he was clearly a fiscal conservative as governor of Vermont? He left the state with a balanced budget.
NOVAK: He raised the hell out of taxes, Mr. Washington, D.C. But being from this city, you don't even know the difference.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, the difference is that Democrats like Bill Clinton, when they ran the economy, gave us a balanced budget. And Bush has blown that so he can give tax breaks to the rich. I think we were all better off when rich people were paying their fair share and the economy was strong. So call me crazy.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, I would like to have you pay more and me less. How about that?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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Interview With Charlie Daniels>
