Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
Should California Delay Recall Vote?
Aired August 18, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: They've got Arnold Schwarzenegger, a cast of thousands, and the possibility of becoming another Florida. Should California delay the recall or take a chance on hanging chad?
We'll get actress and political activist Janeane Garofalo's vote -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington university, Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to the beginning of a very special week here on CROSSFIRE.
Sitting in on the left for both of our normal co-hosts, both of whom are vacationing with Barbra Streisand, is comedian, actress and anti-war activist Janeane Garofalo.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: There is plenty to debate today. We'll be batting around the California recall. In fact, just moments ago, a judge convened a hearing on whether to delay the vote. We'll debate that and bring you updates from the courtroom, if news warrants.
But first, as we wait for the wheels of justice to turn, we'll also bring you the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
JANEANE GAROFALO, GUEST HOST: Here are the latest pictures from Iraq.
Over the weekend, saboteurs blew up a Baghdad water main and cut off water to about two-thirds of the city. Two of Iraq's oil pipelines were also set on fire. This destruction was supposedly the work of pro-Saddam loyalists, but I disagree. This is the work of anti-occupation resistance. The majority of people in Iraq and Afghanistan no longer see us as liberators, but as occupiers and trespassers.
It's time for the Bush administration to be honest about the resistance, the $5-billion-a-month price tag, and the duration of this largely unwelcome occupation.
CARLSON: I'm not sure it's exactly clear who they are. Polling among terrorist groups in the Middle East is notoriously faulty.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: But I think we can say that, regardless of what certain elements in Iraq want, it's still a good thing that Saddam is gone. Even if people long for his presence, it's still good that he's gone.
GAROFALO: That might be a good thing that he's gone, but occupation and democracy are at loggerheads all the time.
You have to take into consideration that the Iraqi people are not grateful for the Shock and Awe. They aren't grateful for the years of sanctions. They are not grateful that after the first Gulf War that, after the uprising, that George Bush Sr. left them to their own devices and they were slaughtered and killed, 30,000 of them. So there's a lot of bad blood between occupation...
(BELL RINGING)
GAROFALO: Oh, there's the bell.
CARLSON: I would sort of agree, actually.
GAROFALO: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.
CARLSON: I guess I would say tough luck. He was still a threat. I'm glad he's gone.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now that contributions are rolling into his presidential campaign, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean is waffling on his pledge to adhere to spending limits. Just five months ago, Dean told the Associated Press that, in the name of clean campaigning, he would accept public matching funds and the spending restrictions that go along with that money.
Last week, Dean couldn't seem that recall that promise, telling the AP -- quote -- "Could we change our mind? Sure." In other words, Dean supports the principle of publicly-financed campaigns, until that principle conflicts with his political ambitions, at which point it is negotiable. Keep in mind that Howard Dean is running as the only man left in the Democratic Party who has integrity. And maybe he is. Low standards. May he is.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER) GAROFALO: I would say that Howard Dean is being very pragmatic, in that the Bush campaign flouts any rules whatsoever. There's no caps on his spending or how much he can bring in. And since corporate America loves George Bush, for obvious reasons, he is going to -- Howard Dean has to complete with millions and millions of dollars.
CARLSON: Wait a second, changing the goal posts here. Bush has opted out in the last campaign, says: I'm not going to -- I'm playing by different rules.
GAROFALO: Right. That's so he doesn't have to have any caps. That's so he can have unlimited fund-raising and unlimited spending.
CARLSON: That's exactly right, which is legal.
Howard Dean has said: I'm holding myself to a higher standard because I'm a much better man than George W. Bush is, a much better man than you are out there, Mr. and Mrs. America. I'm a great man.
GAROFALO: Well, he is a better man. He is a better man than George Bush.
CARLSON: And now I'm going back on it.
GAROFALO: He is a better man than George Bush.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: Now that New York, Cleveland, Detroit and countless other towns and cities have electricity again, people will better understand who's responsible for the blackout.
The Republican Party voted down money to upgrade the power grid three times and Republicans never reacted to multiple recommendations by the Hart-Rudman Commission that the grid be updated. And during that long, hot walk home, maybe people wondered why the Bush administration supports a three-year delay for a proposal to establish national standards for managing the flow of electricity.
The Bush administration claims that states don't need the federal government telling them what to do, unless it involves religion, sex or covert surveillance.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No. Wait a second.
Janeane, let me see if I understand this right. The Bush administration is in the pocket of big energy, isn't that? That's a left wing talking point, right?
GAROFALO: No, no, that's a fact.
CARLSON: That's a fact. OK. But, at the same time, they don't -- Republicans don't want to spend a lot of money on the energy infrastructure.
GAROFALO: Right.
CARLSON: So they're acting against their own interests. That's...
GAROFALO: That's right, exactly.
CARLSON: That's kind of -- that doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
GAROFALO: No, they don't want to spend -- they don't want big government for social programs. They only want big government to run your life, 10 Commandments in school.
CARLSON: Wait. Wait. Wouldn't they want to steer public money to their corporate benefactors?
GAROFALO: Yes, they do.
CARLSON: But they're not, though. They're not spending that money. Now you want them to give more money to Enron.
GAROFALO: They -- yet corporate welfare is the Republican way of doing business and fat contracts.
(BELL RINGING)
GAROFALO: And there's the bell.
CARLSON: The bell.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: Can they hear that, too, or is it just in my ear?
CARLSON: The world can hear it, Janeane.
GAROFALO: Oh, OK.
CARLSON: You might think that nine presidential candidates would be more than enough for any political party. And you'd be right. And yet the once proud Democratic Party, confused, dispirited, barely still alive, may be about to get one more.
Retired General and former NATO Commander Wesley Clark is giving every appearance that he may not be able to resist doing a cannonball into the already crowded Democratic pool. Clark has done nothing to discourage supporters, who today began running draft-Wesley-Clark commercials in New Hampshire and Iowa. And over the weekend, General Clark appeared on "LATE EDITION," where he attacked the Bush administration, just like a real-life presidential candidate.
Everything's in place, except one minor detail. General Wesley Clark has not yet admitted to being a Democrat. Many Democrats, however, don't seem to care. That's how desperate they are.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: They...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: They are not desperate at all. The Democratic field...
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: They're not desperate at all. The Democratic field is very diverse, as the Democratic Party is.
And what is the Republican -- what do Republicans have? They have a giant doughnut hole, George Bush. They've got nothing. They got
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But, Janeane...
GAROFALO: That's absolutely nothing.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: With the exception -- with the exception of Al Sharpton, you have eight candidates who stand for nothing, who have piqued the interest of no one.
GAROFALO: Explain that. How do they stand for nothing?
CARLSON: Well, Howard was the perfect example. This is someone who stands for clean campaigns, except when he might get a political advantage out of ignoring clean campaign laws.
(CROSSTALK)
GAROFALO: Howard Dean is a man of great integrity.
And what does Bush stand for? What is his platform?
CARLSON: I don't know. Protecting the country from terror.
GAROFALO: Well, he's doing a terrible job. We're No. 4, by the way, on the top global targets for terror attacks, No. 4. Thank you, George Bush.
CARLSON: Well, unfortunately, we are out of time. You'll have to clarify what that means in just a moment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We'll have time, thankfully. As if things in California weren't bizarre enough already, at this hour, the ACLU is in court in an attempt to thwart the will of the people and, in general, gum things up even more. Is California poised to drop into the ocean? We'll put that question in the CROSSFIRE with a pair of our favorite guests and, of course, Janeane Garofalo sitting in for the other hosts.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Right now, a hearing is under way in federal court on a request to delay the California recall until next year, if you can imagine. The American Civil Liberties Union argues that Californians are just too incompetent to use the same punch card voting machines they used last year to elect Gray Davis. Maybe the ACLU is on to something, for once. We'll let you know if and when there's a ruling.
Meanwhile, a new from California poll shows Schwarzenegger may not be the shoo-in everyone thought he would be. The Field Poll puts him three points behind Democratic Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate all things California, two of our absolute favorite guests, Democratic strategist Peter Fenn and Republican strategist Alex Castellanos.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And still with us on the set, my co-host on the left this week, actress and political activist and actress Janeane Garofalo.
(APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: I have the first question, so I'm going to ask you the first question.
What do you think that the -- after paying $70 million, the taxpayers of California are going to get from this circus recall and the possible ACLU lawsuit?
ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think they're going to get what they want, which is change.
This is an economy -- it should be -- California should be the economic engine of America. And instead, it's gone into the decline. They've got a governor who has tanked the economy, raised taxes when he should have cut them. And I think it's just a desperate cry from a state to do something they haven't had to do in 100 years, which is get rid of their own governor.
(CROSSTALK)
GAROFALO: It's not from the state, though. It's from Darrell Issa and I'm sure somebody's right-wing, maybe even -- have funded the recall.
CASTELLANOS: That may be one way to look at it.
He really is -- we all have to agree -- he really has become a hugely unpopular governor, even with Democrats. It's not just people who signed the petition. They want the guy gone.
CARLSON: And, Peter, let me just give you some measure of just how unpopular he is. I want to read you a quote from his lieutenant governor, fellow Democrat Cruz Bustamante -- quote -- "I will not participate in any way in this recall election, other than to urge voters to reject this expensive perversion of the recall process. I will not attempt to advance my career at the expense of the people I was elected to serve. I do not intend to put my name on that ballot."
That was not something he said 10 years ago. He said that basically the other day this summer. And now he's running! How could vote for a guy like that?
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank God he changed his mind and we have a choice.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, seriously. I mean, how can you defend -- that's so creepy. Come on.
FENN: Here's the problem you've got, Tucker.
The problem that you've got is, you've got this guy, Schwarzenegger, whose muscles have begun to dissipate, both in his head and on his body.
(LAUGHTER)
FENN: And he is in trouble out there now.
I mean, after the big announcement, all the hoopla, he should have been way ahead of Cruz Bustamante. And he's losing to him. Scary situation for the Republicans. And then you'll have a fun time, because, if California, good old California, is off the table, Democrats have it, 55 electoral votes, one out of every five electoral votes needed to win the presidency, and we'll beat George Bush in 2004.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CASTELLANOS: Mr. Bustamante -- at least Bustamante now -- I do have to give Bustamante credit. At least he's changed from his slogan from, in the Gray Davis tradition, to, integrity we can afford.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: I have another question. Is it my turn?
CARLSON: After you, Janeane Garofalo.
GAROFALO: OK.
Arnold Schwarzenegger has been very silent, except he did say that he's going to clean house. So I was curious of what that meant. And then also that everybody should have fantastic jobs.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: And I was wondering what those fantastic jobs were.
CASTELLANOS: I think it means most of California's going to work on CROSSFIRE.
GAROFALO: Oh, that is a fantastic job.
(LAUGHTER)
CASTELLANOS: No.
What it means is -- again, here's a state that we all -- the country inherited a dot-com bust, a dot-com -- phony dot-com surplus. It hit the country. It hit California. Very interesting the way the president reacted to it, cut taxes, try to keep the economy going. California, Gray Davis took it just the other way. So what it means in California is that you're going to have a governor, whichever Republican is elected, a governor who is going to try to hold the line on taxes, that's going to try to cut spending in that state and bring spending under control, and is going to try to listen to the people a little bit, which is something that, evidently, they think Gray Davis just does not do.
GAROFALO: Cutting taxes is a disaster, especially with this economy. How does it get the economy moving? Everybody always says that, but I don't understand how it works.
CASTELLANOS: Well, I think that's part of the Democratic philosophy these days, is to blame the working people. They have too much money in their pockets. And that's what is wrong with the economy.
GAROFALO: No, just answer the question. What is it? How do you get -- how does that -- how does that get the economy going, cutting taxes?
CASTELLANOS: Well, people actually buy things. And that means that the people who make things do better, and they buy more stuff to make the things with.
GAROFALO: But it's not working. Bush has got cut taxes and it's not working.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off. You are talking about ideas. And I salute you, even though you're wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: But I want to ask you, Peter, about the level of debate going on in California right now. Rather than attack the ideas that Mr. Schwarzenegger may or may not represent, you have the spokesman of the California Democratic Party, Bob Mulholland, attacking him in the following way.
This is a quote. Bob Mulholland said the other day, July 25: "Look, I served in Vietnam. Gray Davis served in Vietnam. And we're not going to be replaced by someone whose dad was in the Nazi army."
Now, I want you -- no, no, Peter, this is from a leading Democratic official. I want you to tell me when these attacks on his character and his family are going to end.
FENN: Bob Mulholland is probably more outrageous than I am. So I can't -- I'm afraid I can't defend that kind of thing.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: No, no, no.
CARLSON: Yes, they did. You know they did.
FENN: I don't know -- that stuff has been out for years. But I don't care about any of that. That doesn't bother me.
What bothers me, if you talk about negative campaigns, is that you've got a guy named Simon who has just released an attack ad against Schwarzenegger, saying he wants to triple the taxes.
CARLSON: I know that -- I know that pains -- I know that pains you.
FENN: It pains me terribly.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: But I'm talking about the official Democratic Party.
FENN: So you're talking about negative ads -- oh, the official Democratic Party.
Listen, I think one of the things that this is, is a circus. And one of the things that a lot of the governors said in the last 24 hours, Republican governors in North Carolina and South Dakota, is, this is not the way the recall system is supposed to work. If this succeeds in this state, folks will be recalled all over the place. And Mulholland has even said there will be a recall against...
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: But you know something? This Schwarzenegger crowd, if he's the guy, he has to come up with 1,100 people to fill jobs within two weeks. This crowd can't even find the men's room in the state Capitol. Forget it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: OK. There you are, bringing it back to the men's room again.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: That's right.
CARLSON: And before it gets any lower, we're going to take a quick commercial break. We'll be right back. We're going to take a quick break.
After Wolf Blitzer's headlines, it's "Rapid Fire," short answers, short questions, and no dimpled chad. Later, one of our Canadian viewers fires back a suggestion about who's to blame for the blackout. You won't be surprised, Canada blaming the U.S., as they always do. We'll set them straight.
We'll be right back.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Janeane Garofalo, sitting in on the left.
It's time for "Rapid Fire," the quickest question-and-answer session in television. We're talking about the California recall with Republican strategist Alex Castellanos and Democratic strategist Peter Fenn.
CARLSON: Peter, this answer could take an hour. But if you can just boil it down to one sentence, why does everyone hate Gray Davis so much?
(LAUGHTER)
FENN: Listen, I think the question should be, why do they hate any governor in this kind of economy that George Bush has created? They hate them all, because they're on the downslide. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: I want to know why Arnold Schwarzenegger met with Ken Lay, disgraced CEO of Enron, in spring of 2001 at the Beverly Hills Hotel?
CASTELLANOS: They're lovers?
GAROFALO: There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
CASTELLANOS: I have no clue.
GAROFALO: You know, they met -- he met with Michael Milken and Arnold Schwarzenegger during the rolling blackouts. Why did Ken Lay summon Schwarzenegger to the Beverly Hills Hotel?
CASTELLANOS: I have no idea of who was summoned.
GAROFALO: Interesting question.
CASTELLANOS: But I know that, in just a few days -- I know that, in just a few days, Arnold Schwarzenegger has brought in more serious people to try to address California's serious problems than Gray Davis has in years.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Isn't it true -- you don't expect Gray Davis to actually get -- he'll resign before he's taken out, don't you think?
FENN: No, no. I don't think he will resign at all.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I think this is going to go straight through. And I think -- this is not over. The one thing about this is that it is a roller coaster and we're on about the second hill of this roller coaster. We've got two more months to go. I wouldn't predict anything right now, honestly.
(CROSSTALK)
GAROFALO: The Humvee. Thanks to Arnold Schwarzenegger, the Humvee is now in suburban and city streets everywhere, including the Humvee limo. In 1992, Arnold Schwarzenegger got the first Humvee. And it was his -- he wanted a suburban Humvee. It gets eight to 10 miles to the gallon. So what is his tethering to energy conservation?
(LAUGHTER)
CASTELLANOS: I thought...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: He has five of them. He has five.
(APPLAUSE)
CASTELLANOS: I'm sorry. I'm confused. I thought it was President Clinton who got the first Humvee. No, I'm wrong.
GAROFALO: Ooh. That's lowbrow humor, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: ... on Comedy Central.
GAROFALO: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I think he's much more grounded than the Democratic presidential candidates, all of whom will show up at their rallies driving big SUVs and all who have missed every energy vote this year.
CARLSON: That is such an excellent point.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's why we love having you on, Alex Castellanos.
And, Peter Fenn, I know you would have a great comeback, had we given you time. But we're not that fair here.
FENN: No.
CARLSON: It's time to ask our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your voting devices, if you would. Tell us, should the recall be delayed? Press one for, yes, the recall should be delayed. Press two for, no, hold the recall as scheduled on October 7. And remember to brush away any dangling chads.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We'll have the results after the break. And our viewers are firing back advice for Janeane Garofalo. Will they be generally supportive or savage, as usual?
You'll find to find out, so stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback."
But first, the results of our audience poll, in which we asked, should the California recall be delayed or should they bounce Gray Davis ASAP? Yes, it should be delayed, says 20 percent of Republicans and 55 percent of Democrats. No, say 80 percent of Republicans and 45 percent of Democrats. I would say the consensus, Janeane, is, get that guy out as soon as possible.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, that's how I read the numbers, anyhow.
GAROFALO: I don't know how to respond to that.
CARLSON: Good.
And now to "Fireback." You first.
GAROFALO: OK.
This is from A.R. Milliot of Middletown, Connecticut: "I hope Janeane Garofalo will not forget to inquire as to the whereabouts of all the right-wingers who said of her, Sarandon and Robbins that actors should stay out of politics. Where are they now that Ah-nuld is running?"
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: "For that matter, where were they during the Reagan years?"
(APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: And Fred Grandy and Sonny Bono and Shirley Temple Black?
CARLSON: That's right.
GAROFALO: Yes.
CARLSON: And Isaac from "Love Boat." Did he run? He should have.
GAROFALO: Isaac from "Love Boat." The little girl, robot girl, from "Small Wonder."
CARLSON: Robot girl, yes. Robot girl.
Harriette Knowles of New York writes: "I, for one, am glad you guys at CROSSFIRE have enough sense to recognize a passionate, intelligent and informed talent in Janeane Garofalo, even though she is an actress."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Is that a compliment?
GAROFALO: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't know.
CARLSON: Slightly backhanded, but...
GAROFALO: OK, this comes from Milton in Miami, Florida: "Plenty of money for wars, not a dime for the infrastructure of the United States. But the Bush administration has a good reason. They must keep everybody in the dark as to what they are doing."
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh, yes. It's a conspiracy, Janeane, as we have pointed out before.
Benjamin, from a place called "the glorious empire of Canada," writes...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: "Blaming Canadians for a U.S. problem is so traditionally American. It has gone on for hundreds of years. And I'm sure Canada will continue to be an American scapegoat for years to come" -- we hope. "Why can't you guys blame the Mexicans? P.S., the Amish are all laughing."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's a cryptic P.S.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I enjoy blaming Canada, for one. And we'll continue do that here on CROSSFIRE.
Yes, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Natalie Lyne (ph). And I'm from Parker, Colorado.
Do you think that Clinton will be able to persuade voters to stand by Gray Davis?
GAROFALO: Oh, me?
CARLSON: Do you think Clinton will be able to?
GAROFALO: Yes. I think, actually, Clinton -- both Clintons are extremely popular in California. And they're actually extremely popular all over the globe, despite right-wing lies to the contrary. So I think they will be able to.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I think what you're missing, though, is that Al Gore has also come to California to help Gray Davis. (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Al Gore, who Democrats really believe is the real president.
GAROFALO: There's nothing wrong with Al Gore either. It's the same right-wing mythology that there's something wrong with Al Gore and the Clintons. There's nothing wrong with Al Gore.
CARLSON: Hey, that's exactly right. So I think Al Gore ought to be able to drag Gray Davis across the finish line. Don't you?
GAROFALO: Well, I don't understand what you mean. Are you implying that, somehow, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a much better candidate, a much better governor?
CARLSON: I'm not implying. I'm saying Al Gore, the real president, ought to be able to help Gray Davis. And if he can't, he ought to go back to some community college.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: He is the real president, actually, yes.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: All right, I think we're out of time.
GAROFALO: From the left, I'm Janeane Garofalo. That's all for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next time, tomorrow, for another edition of CROSSFIRE, all week with Janeane Garofalo.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 18, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: They've got Arnold Schwarzenegger, a cast of thousands, and the possibility of becoming another Florida. Should California delay the recall or take a chance on hanging chad?
We'll get actress and political activist Janeane Garofalo's vote -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington university, Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to the beginning of a very special week here on CROSSFIRE.
Sitting in on the left for both of our normal co-hosts, both of whom are vacationing with Barbra Streisand, is comedian, actress and anti-war activist Janeane Garofalo.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: There is plenty to debate today. We'll be batting around the California recall. In fact, just moments ago, a judge convened a hearing on whether to delay the vote. We'll debate that and bring you updates from the courtroom, if news warrants.
But first, as we wait for the wheels of justice to turn, we'll also bring you the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
JANEANE GAROFALO, GUEST HOST: Here are the latest pictures from Iraq.
Over the weekend, saboteurs blew up a Baghdad water main and cut off water to about two-thirds of the city. Two of Iraq's oil pipelines were also set on fire. This destruction was supposedly the work of pro-Saddam loyalists, but I disagree. This is the work of anti-occupation resistance. The majority of people in Iraq and Afghanistan no longer see us as liberators, but as occupiers and trespassers.
It's time for the Bush administration to be honest about the resistance, the $5-billion-a-month price tag, and the duration of this largely unwelcome occupation.
CARLSON: I'm not sure it's exactly clear who they are. Polling among terrorist groups in the Middle East is notoriously faulty.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: But I think we can say that, regardless of what certain elements in Iraq want, it's still a good thing that Saddam is gone. Even if people long for his presence, it's still good that he's gone.
GAROFALO: That might be a good thing that he's gone, but occupation and democracy are at loggerheads all the time.
You have to take into consideration that the Iraqi people are not grateful for the Shock and Awe. They aren't grateful for the years of sanctions. They are not grateful that after the first Gulf War that, after the uprising, that George Bush Sr. left them to their own devices and they were slaughtered and killed, 30,000 of them. So there's a lot of bad blood between occupation...
(BELL RINGING)
GAROFALO: Oh, there's the bell.
CARLSON: I would sort of agree, actually.
GAROFALO: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.
CARLSON: I guess I would say tough luck. He was still a threat. I'm glad he's gone.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now that contributions are rolling into his presidential campaign, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean is waffling on his pledge to adhere to spending limits. Just five months ago, Dean told the Associated Press that, in the name of clean campaigning, he would accept public matching funds and the spending restrictions that go along with that money.
Last week, Dean couldn't seem that recall that promise, telling the AP -- quote -- "Could we change our mind? Sure." In other words, Dean supports the principle of publicly-financed campaigns, until that principle conflicts with his political ambitions, at which point it is negotiable. Keep in mind that Howard Dean is running as the only man left in the Democratic Party who has integrity. And maybe he is. Low standards. May he is.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER) GAROFALO: I would say that Howard Dean is being very pragmatic, in that the Bush campaign flouts any rules whatsoever. There's no caps on his spending or how much he can bring in. And since corporate America loves George Bush, for obvious reasons, he is going to -- Howard Dean has to complete with millions and millions of dollars.
CARLSON: Wait a second, changing the goal posts here. Bush has opted out in the last campaign, says: I'm not going to -- I'm playing by different rules.
GAROFALO: Right. That's so he doesn't have to have any caps. That's so he can have unlimited fund-raising and unlimited spending.
CARLSON: That's exactly right, which is legal.
Howard Dean has said: I'm holding myself to a higher standard because I'm a much better man than George W. Bush is, a much better man than you are out there, Mr. and Mrs. America. I'm a great man.
GAROFALO: Well, he is a better man. He is a better man than George Bush.
CARLSON: And now I'm going back on it.
GAROFALO: He is a better man than George Bush.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: Now that New York, Cleveland, Detroit and countless other towns and cities have electricity again, people will better understand who's responsible for the blackout.
The Republican Party voted down money to upgrade the power grid three times and Republicans never reacted to multiple recommendations by the Hart-Rudman Commission that the grid be updated. And during that long, hot walk home, maybe people wondered why the Bush administration supports a three-year delay for a proposal to establish national standards for managing the flow of electricity.
The Bush administration claims that states don't need the federal government telling them what to do, unless it involves religion, sex or covert surveillance.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No. Wait a second.
Janeane, let me see if I understand this right. The Bush administration is in the pocket of big energy, isn't that? That's a left wing talking point, right?
GAROFALO: No, no, that's a fact.
CARLSON: That's a fact. OK. But, at the same time, they don't -- Republicans don't want to spend a lot of money on the energy infrastructure.
GAROFALO: Right.
CARLSON: So they're acting against their own interests. That's...
GAROFALO: That's right, exactly.
CARLSON: That's kind of -- that doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
GAROFALO: No, they don't want to spend -- they don't want big government for social programs. They only want big government to run your life, 10 Commandments in school.
CARLSON: Wait. Wait. Wouldn't they want to steer public money to their corporate benefactors?
GAROFALO: Yes, they do.
CARLSON: But they're not, though. They're not spending that money. Now you want them to give more money to Enron.
GAROFALO: They -- yet corporate welfare is the Republican way of doing business and fat contracts.
(BELL RINGING)
GAROFALO: And there's the bell.
CARLSON: The bell.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: Can they hear that, too, or is it just in my ear?
CARLSON: The world can hear it, Janeane.
GAROFALO: Oh, OK.
CARLSON: You might think that nine presidential candidates would be more than enough for any political party. And you'd be right. And yet the once proud Democratic Party, confused, dispirited, barely still alive, may be about to get one more.
Retired General and former NATO Commander Wesley Clark is giving every appearance that he may not be able to resist doing a cannonball into the already crowded Democratic pool. Clark has done nothing to discourage supporters, who today began running draft-Wesley-Clark commercials in New Hampshire and Iowa. And over the weekend, General Clark appeared on "LATE EDITION," where he attacked the Bush administration, just like a real-life presidential candidate.
Everything's in place, except one minor detail. General Wesley Clark has not yet admitted to being a Democrat. Many Democrats, however, don't seem to care. That's how desperate they are.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: They...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: They are not desperate at all. The Democratic field...
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: They're not desperate at all. The Democratic field is very diverse, as the Democratic Party is.
And what is the Republican -- what do Republicans have? They have a giant doughnut hole, George Bush. They've got nothing. They got
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But, Janeane...
GAROFALO: That's absolutely nothing.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: With the exception -- with the exception of Al Sharpton, you have eight candidates who stand for nothing, who have piqued the interest of no one.
GAROFALO: Explain that. How do they stand for nothing?
CARLSON: Well, Howard was the perfect example. This is someone who stands for clean campaigns, except when he might get a political advantage out of ignoring clean campaign laws.
(CROSSTALK)
GAROFALO: Howard Dean is a man of great integrity.
And what does Bush stand for? What is his platform?
CARLSON: I don't know. Protecting the country from terror.
GAROFALO: Well, he's doing a terrible job. We're No. 4, by the way, on the top global targets for terror attacks, No. 4. Thank you, George Bush.
CARLSON: Well, unfortunately, we are out of time. You'll have to clarify what that means in just a moment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We'll have time, thankfully. As if things in California weren't bizarre enough already, at this hour, the ACLU is in court in an attempt to thwart the will of the people and, in general, gum things up even more. Is California poised to drop into the ocean? We'll put that question in the CROSSFIRE with a pair of our favorite guests and, of course, Janeane Garofalo sitting in for the other hosts.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Right now, a hearing is under way in federal court on a request to delay the California recall until next year, if you can imagine. The American Civil Liberties Union argues that Californians are just too incompetent to use the same punch card voting machines they used last year to elect Gray Davis. Maybe the ACLU is on to something, for once. We'll let you know if and when there's a ruling.
Meanwhile, a new from California poll shows Schwarzenegger may not be the shoo-in everyone thought he would be. The Field Poll puts him three points behind Democratic Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate all things California, two of our absolute favorite guests, Democratic strategist Peter Fenn and Republican strategist Alex Castellanos.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And still with us on the set, my co-host on the left this week, actress and political activist and actress Janeane Garofalo.
(APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: I have the first question, so I'm going to ask you the first question.
What do you think that the -- after paying $70 million, the taxpayers of California are going to get from this circus recall and the possible ACLU lawsuit?
ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think they're going to get what they want, which is change.
This is an economy -- it should be -- California should be the economic engine of America. And instead, it's gone into the decline. They've got a governor who has tanked the economy, raised taxes when he should have cut them. And I think it's just a desperate cry from a state to do something they haven't had to do in 100 years, which is get rid of their own governor.
(CROSSTALK)
GAROFALO: It's not from the state, though. It's from Darrell Issa and I'm sure somebody's right-wing, maybe even -- have funded the recall.
CASTELLANOS: That may be one way to look at it.
He really is -- we all have to agree -- he really has become a hugely unpopular governor, even with Democrats. It's not just people who signed the petition. They want the guy gone.
CARLSON: And, Peter, let me just give you some measure of just how unpopular he is. I want to read you a quote from his lieutenant governor, fellow Democrat Cruz Bustamante -- quote -- "I will not participate in any way in this recall election, other than to urge voters to reject this expensive perversion of the recall process. I will not attempt to advance my career at the expense of the people I was elected to serve. I do not intend to put my name on that ballot."
That was not something he said 10 years ago. He said that basically the other day this summer. And now he's running! How could vote for a guy like that?
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank God he changed his mind and we have a choice.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, seriously. I mean, how can you defend -- that's so creepy. Come on.
FENN: Here's the problem you've got, Tucker.
The problem that you've got is, you've got this guy, Schwarzenegger, whose muscles have begun to dissipate, both in his head and on his body.
(LAUGHTER)
FENN: And he is in trouble out there now.
I mean, after the big announcement, all the hoopla, he should have been way ahead of Cruz Bustamante. And he's losing to him. Scary situation for the Republicans. And then you'll have a fun time, because, if California, good old California, is off the table, Democrats have it, 55 electoral votes, one out of every five electoral votes needed to win the presidency, and we'll beat George Bush in 2004.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CASTELLANOS: Mr. Bustamante -- at least Bustamante now -- I do have to give Bustamante credit. At least he's changed from his slogan from, in the Gray Davis tradition, to, integrity we can afford.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: I have another question. Is it my turn?
CARLSON: After you, Janeane Garofalo.
GAROFALO: OK.
Arnold Schwarzenegger has been very silent, except he did say that he's going to clean house. So I was curious of what that meant. And then also that everybody should have fantastic jobs.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: And I was wondering what those fantastic jobs were.
CASTELLANOS: I think it means most of California's going to work on CROSSFIRE.
GAROFALO: Oh, that is a fantastic job.
(LAUGHTER)
CASTELLANOS: No.
What it means is -- again, here's a state that we all -- the country inherited a dot-com bust, a dot-com -- phony dot-com surplus. It hit the country. It hit California. Very interesting the way the president reacted to it, cut taxes, try to keep the economy going. California, Gray Davis took it just the other way. So what it means in California is that you're going to have a governor, whichever Republican is elected, a governor who is going to try to hold the line on taxes, that's going to try to cut spending in that state and bring spending under control, and is going to try to listen to the people a little bit, which is something that, evidently, they think Gray Davis just does not do.
GAROFALO: Cutting taxes is a disaster, especially with this economy. How does it get the economy moving? Everybody always says that, but I don't understand how it works.
CASTELLANOS: Well, I think that's part of the Democratic philosophy these days, is to blame the working people. They have too much money in their pockets. And that's what is wrong with the economy.
GAROFALO: No, just answer the question. What is it? How do you get -- how does that -- how does that get the economy going, cutting taxes?
CASTELLANOS: Well, people actually buy things. And that means that the people who make things do better, and they buy more stuff to make the things with.
GAROFALO: But it's not working. Bush has got cut taxes and it's not working.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off. You are talking about ideas. And I salute you, even though you're wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: But I want to ask you, Peter, about the level of debate going on in California right now. Rather than attack the ideas that Mr. Schwarzenegger may or may not represent, you have the spokesman of the California Democratic Party, Bob Mulholland, attacking him in the following way.
This is a quote. Bob Mulholland said the other day, July 25: "Look, I served in Vietnam. Gray Davis served in Vietnam. And we're not going to be replaced by someone whose dad was in the Nazi army."
Now, I want you -- no, no, Peter, this is from a leading Democratic official. I want you to tell me when these attacks on his character and his family are going to end.
FENN: Bob Mulholland is probably more outrageous than I am. So I can't -- I'm afraid I can't defend that kind of thing.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: No, no, no.
CARLSON: Yes, they did. You know they did.
FENN: I don't know -- that stuff has been out for years. But I don't care about any of that. That doesn't bother me.
What bothers me, if you talk about negative campaigns, is that you've got a guy named Simon who has just released an attack ad against Schwarzenegger, saying he wants to triple the taxes.
CARLSON: I know that -- I know that pains -- I know that pains you.
FENN: It pains me terribly.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: But I'm talking about the official Democratic Party.
FENN: So you're talking about negative ads -- oh, the official Democratic Party.
Listen, I think one of the things that this is, is a circus. And one of the things that a lot of the governors said in the last 24 hours, Republican governors in North Carolina and South Dakota, is, this is not the way the recall system is supposed to work. If this succeeds in this state, folks will be recalled all over the place. And Mulholland has even said there will be a recall against...
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: But you know something? This Schwarzenegger crowd, if he's the guy, he has to come up with 1,100 people to fill jobs within two weeks. This crowd can't even find the men's room in the state Capitol. Forget it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: OK. There you are, bringing it back to the men's room again.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: That's right.
CARLSON: And before it gets any lower, we're going to take a quick commercial break. We'll be right back. We're going to take a quick break.
After Wolf Blitzer's headlines, it's "Rapid Fire," short answers, short questions, and no dimpled chad. Later, one of our Canadian viewers fires back a suggestion about who's to blame for the blackout. You won't be surprised, Canada blaming the U.S., as they always do. We'll set them straight.
We'll be right back.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Janeane Garofalo, sitting in on the left.
It's time for "Rapid Fire," the quickest question-and-answer session in television. We're talking about the California recall with Republican strategist Alex Castellanos and Democratic strategist Peter Fenn.
CARLSON: Peter, this answer could take an hour. But if you can just boil it down to one sentence, why does everyone hate Gray Davis so much?
(LAUGHTER)
FENN: Listen, I think the question should be, why do they hate any governor in this kind of economy that George Bush has created? They hate them all, because they're on the downslide. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: I want to know why Arnold Schwarzenegger met with Ken Lay, disgraced CEO of Enron, in spring of 2001 at the Beverly Hills Hotel?
CASTELLANOS: They're lovers?
GAROFALO: There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
CASTELLANOS: I have no clue.
GAROFALO: You know, they met -- he met with Michael Milken and Arnold Schwarzenegger during the rolling blackouts. Why did Ken Lay summon Schwarzenegger to the Beverly Hills Hotel?
CASTELLANOS: I have no idea of who was summoned.
GAROFALO: Interesting question.
CASTELLANOS: But I know that, in just a few days -- I know that, in just a few days, Arnold Schwarzenegger has brought in more serious people to try to address California's serious problems than Gray Davis has in years.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Isn't it true -- you don't expect Gray Davis to actually get -- he'll resign before he's taken out, don't you think?
FENN: No, no. I don't think he will resign at all.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I think this is going to go straight through. And I think -- this is not over. The one thing about this is that it is a roller coaster and we're on about the second hill of this roller coaster. We've got two more months to go. I wouldn't predict anything right now, honestly.
(CROSSTALK)
GAROFALO: The Humvee. Thanks to Arnold Schwarzenegger, the Humvee is now in suburban and city streets everywhere, including the Humvee limo. In 1992, Arnold Schwarzenegger got the first Humvee. And it was his -- he wanted a suburban Humvee. It gets eight to 10 miles to the gallon. So what is his tethering to energy conservation?
(LAUGHTER)
CASTELLANOS: I thought...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: He has five of them. He has five.
(APPLAUSE)
CASTELLANOS: I'm sorry. I'm confused. I thought it was President Clinton who got the first Humvee. No, I'm wrong.
GAROFALO: Ooh. That's lowbrow humor, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: ... on Comedy Central.
GAROFALO: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I think he's much more grounded than the Democratic presidential candidates, all of whom will show up at their rallies driving big SUVs and all who have missed every energy vote this year.
CARLSON: That is such an excellent point.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's why we love having you on, Alex Castellanos.
And, Peter Fenn, I know you would have a great comeback, had we given you time. But we're not that fair here.
FENN: No.
CARLSON: It's time to ask our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your voting devices, if you would. Tell us, should the recall be delayed? Press one for, yes, the recall should be delayed. Press two for, no, hold the recall as scheduled on October 7. And remember to brush away any dangling chads.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We'll have the results after the break. And our viewers are firing back advice for Janeane Garofalo. Will they be generally supportive or savage, as usual?
You'll find to find out, so stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback."
But first, the results of our audience poll, in which we asked, should the California recall be delayed or should they bounce Gray Davis ASAP? Yes, it should be delayed, says 20 percent of Republicans and 55 percent of Democrats. No, say 80 percent of Republicans and 45 percent of Democrats. I would say the consensus, Janeane, is, get that guy out as soon as possible.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, that's how I read the numbers, anyhow.
GAROFALO: I don't know how to respond to that.
CARLSON: Good.
And now to "Fireback." You first.
GAROFALO: OK.
This is from A.R. Milliot of Middletown, Connecticut: "I hope Janeane Garofalo will not forget to inquire as to the whereabouts of all the right-wingers who said of her, Sarandon and Robbins that actors should stay out of politics. Where are they now that Ah-nuld is running?"
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: "For that matter, where were they during the Reagan years?"
(APPLAUSE)
GAROFALO: And Fred Grandy and Sonny Bono and Shirley Temple Black?
CARLSON: That's right.
GAROFALO: Yes.
CARLSON: And Isaac from "Love Boat." Did he run? He should have.
GAROFALO: Isaac from "Love Boat." The little girl, robot girl, from "Small Wonder."
CARLSON: Robot girl, yes. Robot girl.
Harriette Knowles of New York writes: "I, for one, am glad you guys at CROSSFIRE have enough sense to recognize a passionate, intelligent and informed talent in Janeane Garofalo, even though she is an actress."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Is that a compliment?
GAROFALO: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't know.
CARLSON: Slightly backhanded, but...
GAROFALO: OK, this comes from Milton in Miami, Florida: "Plenty of money for wars, not a dime for the infrastructure of the United States. But the Bush administration has a good reason. They must keep everybody in the dark as to what they are doing."
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh, yes. It's a conspiracy, Janeane, as we have pointed out before.
Benjamin, from a place called "the glorious empire of Canada," writes...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: "Blaming Canadians for a U.S. problem is so traditionally American. It has gone on for hundreds of years. And I'm sure Canada will continue to be an American scapegoat for years to come" -- we hope. "Why can't you guys blame the Mexicans? P.S., the Amish are all laughing."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's a cryptic P.S.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I enjoy blaming Canada, for one. And we'll continue do that here on CROSSFIRE.
Yes, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Natalie Lyne (ph). And I'm from Parker, Colorado.
Do you think that Clinton will be able to persuade voters to stand by Gray Davis?
GAROFALO: Oh, me?
CARLSON: Do you think Clinton will be able to?
GAROFALO: Yes. I think, actually, Clinton -- both Clintons are extremely popular in California. And they're actually extremely popular all over the globe, despite right-wing lies to the contrary. So I think they will be able to.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I think what you're missing, though, is that Al Gore has also come to California to help Gray Davis. (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Al Gore, who Democrats really believe is the real president.
GAROFALO: There's nothing wrong with Al Gore either. It's the same right-wing mythology that there's something wrong with Al Gore and the Clintons. There's nothing wrong with Al Gore.
CARLSON: Hey, that's exactly right. So I think Al Gore ought to be able to drag Gray Davis across the finish line. Don't you?
GAROFALO: Well, I don't understand what you mean. Are you implying that, somehow, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a much better candidate, a much better governor?
CARLSON: I'm not implying. I'm saying Al Gore, the real president, ought to be able to help Gray Davis. And if he can't, he ought to go back to some community college.
(LAUGHTER)
GAROFALO: He is the real president, actually, yes.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: All right, I think we're out of time.
GAROFALO: From the left, I'm Janeane Garofalo. That's all for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next time, tomorrow, for another edition of CROSSFIRE, all week with Janeane Garofalo.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
