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CNN Crossfire
Schwarzenegger Gets Specific
Aired August 28, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Arnold Schwarzenegger gets frank, and not just about politics. Will a two-decade-old interview hurt his chances in the election? And how about his stance on abortion, gun control and other issues?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE SEAN HANNITY SHOW")
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: Do you support gay marriage?
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I do support domestic partnership.
HANNITY: But not gay marriage?
SCHWARZENEGGER: No.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Arnold Schwarzenegger is finally talking about the issues. But an old interview in "Oui" magazine is awfully revealing, too. We'll debate it in a few minutes, right after we take the wraps off the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
I've always accused George Bush of not calling on anybody to make any sacrifice. Now he's found some folks who will, federal employees. That's right. Yesterday, President Bush decided, in light of a $500 billion deficit caused by him and nearly $2 trillion in tax cuts, largely about one percent of the people, the only 1 percent that get anything out of this tax cut, raises to federal employees get only 2 percent. So what did Dick Cheney -- so while Dick Cheney's company, Halliburton, gets hundreds of millions of dollars in no-bid contracts with the U.S. government and millionaires get an average of $53,000 in tax breaks, federal employees like park rangers and FBI agents, scientists at the NIH and Homeland Security staffers, whose average salary is $36,000, get the shaft. Congratulations, President Bush, for taking another brave stand against America's middle class.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: So, James, let me see if I get this right. You don't think that middle-income people ought to have a tax break? You have said that quite a bit on our show. So the only middle-income people who ought to get any kind of break at all are federal employees, unionized federal employees who vote Democratic?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I never said middle-income...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually...
CARVILLE: I never said middle-income people shouldn't get a tax break. You know that's the case.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I said the rich shouldn't get a tax break.
CARLSON: Every night, James.
CARVILLE: I never said the middle income. You show it. And I'll tell you what...
CARLSON: You can shout me down all you want, James.
CARVILLE: You dislike -- you dislike federal employees, because they're not powerful enough for you.
CARLSON: Oh, James, you have never even met anybody...
CARVILLE: In your power-centric
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You can't suck up to powerful people enough.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You so much care about powerful people's approval. It's what defines you.
CARLSON: That is such a stupid lie.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: That I'm just going to ignore it and keep going forward.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: First, there was "The Neverending Story." Now we have the never-deciding candidate. "The New York Times" reports, former NATO Commander and suspected Democrat Wesley Clark is telling friends he wants to join the race for president, but he's putting off a final decision until he thinks he has a realistic chance of getting the nomination.
The paper guesses that will come some time after September 15. Well, maybe a long, long time after September 15th. A draft-Clark rally in New York City last night drew a whopping total of about 100 people. That's 100 out of eight million.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: The people are speaking -- very softly. Come back to CNN, General. You are a terrific military analyst. And we miss you.
CARVILLE: Well, I will tell you what. He was certainly very brilliant when he said that this thing in Iraq is the stupidest thing this country has done since Vietnam. I hope it doesn't turn out to be more stupid
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, but it shows you -- no, but truly
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Stop the shouting for a second and engage this idea, if you're capable of it.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And that is that the Democratic field is so weak, that there are Democrats really looking for someone else, a 10th candidate.
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. It's so much stronger than the current occupant, who has not succeeded at a single thing, other than helping his campaign contributors.
And every Democratic candidate in here is not going to pollute the air, is not going to lie to get us into war.
CARLSON: Oh. CARVILLE: And is not going to take a $5 trillion surplus and turn it into trillions of dollars in a deficit.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: James...
CARVILLE: There's no one -- there's not a person who is a Democratic candidate who is as hateful
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think a stupid intellectual argument like that gets you anywhere, James.
CARVILLE: I'm just giving you the facts. He lied to get us into war.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Good luck, James.
CARVILLE: Now, you think things in Iraq are bad? Well, what I'm going to tell you next is so big, it's breathtaking.
At a conference over in China today, the North Koreans announced that they're preparing to declare themselves a nuclear nation. Wow. Welcome to the club. What's more, they may start testing nuclear weapons. Thank you, George W. Bush. Not only has this administration abandoned Bill Clinton's policy of constructive engagement with North Korea. Our current president started calling them names, putting on his axis of evil.
It's breathtaking how the Bush administration can make any situation worse. And I thought the president promised us that invading Iraq would solve all the world's problems.
CARLSON: You got a lot of guts reading that, James, considering that it was...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: You really do, considering that it was Clinton's policy of containment under which these weapons were built.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're wrong. You are lying. You are lying. You are lying. You are lying.
CARLSON: James. OK, that's great.
CARVILLE: These weapons were built -- these weapons were built because of the plutonium that was there. You've got to learn to tell the truth, son. You don't know what it is. You don't know what it is. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You've got some sort of emotional connection. But the fact is, James, it shows how little you understand that this announcement...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hear me. This announcement today irritated the Chinese, who are the key to keeping North Korea under control. They are the spring from which North Korea gets its power. You make the Chinese mad and they may actually force the North Koreans into line.
CARVILLE: I hope they do. I hope they do.
CARLSON: But you don't understand anything about it.
CARVILLE: I hope the Chinese do something smart, because we haven't.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I know everything about it. And I know we lied to get into this war.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: And I know we said, if we got into war, we would straighten the thing with North Korea. And we've done neither.
CARLSON: Whatever that means.
But now, it's time for yet more international news. France has announced that it faces a dangerous overabundance of happiness and goodwill.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: In response, the Chirac government may soon take steps to abolish Christmas. One of France's 11 national holidays will be eliminated, with the money diverted to pay for health care costs for the elderly.
Labor unions are expected to protect most secular holidays, leaving perhaps only December 25. Merry Labor Day.
Meanwhile, to the north, a severe humor shortage has been reported in Canada. Canada's passport office announced that, as of this fall, citizens will be forbidden from smiling in passport photos.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Hairpieces are still welcome, but no mirth. Employees of the passport checkers union immediately voiced protests, arguing that looking at pictures of Canadians all day is difficult enough.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Scowling Canadians, no one should have to face that. And for a visual aid, James, I want you to take a look up here. We have a before and after.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: This is a smiling Canadian.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: While this, meanwhile, is a scowling Canadian.
CARVILLE: There you go.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And imagine spending all day looking at that. Now, that is -- nobody should have to do that.
CARVILLE: There you go. No one should. Thank God my wife and kids can still stand me.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: You make a good -- you make a good-looking Canadian, I have to say.
CARVILLE: There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: I like Canada, actually.
CARLSON: So do I.
Next: Arnold Schwarzenegger on sex a long time ago and on the issues now. Which will California voters care more about? We'll debate that. You won't want to miss a moment of it. We'll have guests, including San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown.
We'll be right back.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Arnold Schwarzenegger hasn't had a whole lot to say about the issues in California, but he called some radio shows yesterday. Well, everyone knows he's pro-abortion, pro-gun control, pro-domestic partnership. He's for medical marijuana, but against offshore oil drilling. The right-wingers will love all of that. Now his embarrassing 1977 interview about the sex secrets of bodybuilders has surfaced in an old issue of "Oui" magazine.
In the CROSSFIRE to talk about Arnold running and his mouth are San Francisco's Democratic mayor, Willie Brown; and, in Los Angeles, Republican Congressman David Dreier, one of the Schwarzenegger campaign's co-chairmen.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, thanks for joining us. I'm sure...
WILLIE BROWN (D), MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: Hello, Tucker.
CARLSON: Hi.
I'm sure, by now, you've read the "Oui" interview, in which candidate Schwarzenegger boasts about engaging in group sex. It seems obvious to me this is going to help him with California voters.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: My question to you is, in light of that, do you think Gray Davis will brag that he, too, has engaged in group sex, and will anyone believe him?
BROWN: Oh, no, no, no.
First of all, they wouldn't believe him if he did. And, secondly, he would never acknowledge or admit that. My candidate, Gray Davis, is a pretty substantial guy. He's been in this business now for so many years. He's been statewide five times. And they've obviously inspected him up one side of the wall and down the other. You'll find nothing in his background that would ever equate with group sex.
CARLSON: OK. Well, that's obviously going to...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: One of the reasons Californians don't like him, because he seems like the kind of guy you'd never find in a dog pile.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: My question to you is, the efforts by California Democrats to bring up things about Arnold Schwarzenegger's past, like the group sex, like smoking dope, that's not going to hurt Schwarzenegger at all in the end, is it?
BROWN: Well, I think it will with the more conservative voters, who go to the polls with great regularity, because he now has to explain that previous conduct. But be clear. I don't think it's Democrats who are bringing that up. As a matter of fact, Democrats would like to have no one even mention Arnold's name. We'd like very much to have you forgo the incredible star power that comes with that name. So you can be assured that we didn't bring it up. Arnold is bringing all this stuff upon himself by hiding, by refusing to debate, by refusing to be interviewed by the free press.
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Oh, come on, Willie.
BROWN: And, in particular, by -- be interviewed as we're doing here today. And, as a result of that, the journalists themselves have gone back and said, these are the reasons why he doesn't want to be interviewed.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Arnold's had a wide range of interviews. Arnold has had a wide range of interviews just this week. He's at this moment in Fresno in the Central Valley campaigning. He's gone door to door talking to people.
And I will tell you that I would not, Willie, continue to use the line that Gray Davis is more substantial than Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think, in every way, Arnold is more substantial. But the whole thrust to this program, the whole thrust to this program...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Congressman. Wait, wait. Stop. Stop. Wait, Congressman. I'm going to have to stop you right there. What in the world did you mean by that? Let's be very specific.
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: Well, what I -- I will tell you that we know...
CARLSON: Congressman, tell me.
DREIER: That Arnold is much more substantial, you mean? Obviously, just looking at the two standing side by side, that's what I'm talking about. And I believe that he's more substantial...
CARVILLE: Congressman, can this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) get in this poker game? Name me three issues...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Is that that smiling Canadian? Is that the smiling Canadian?
CARVILLE: It is.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Tell the people of California three social issues that Arnold Schwarzenegger and Howard Dean disagree on.
DREIER: That Howard Dean and Arnold Schwarzenegger -- I don't know.
CARVILLE: Yes, three social issues.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Is there a presidential campaign going on for the Democrats? Or is there a Democratic presidential campaign?
CARVILLE: Do you know -- and again -- let me ask you again. Is there any difference on social issues between Howard Dean and Arnold Schwarzenegger?
DREIER: You know what? I don't know what Howard Dean's positions are. I hear that he's a big supporter of gun rights.
CARVILLE: Well, let me give you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He's pro-choice. He's pro-choice.
DREIER: On the gun issue...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: OK. I got you. So he's more liberal socially. Arnold Schwarzenegger is more of a social liberal than Howard Dean.
DREIER: James, my friend, welcome back. We're glad to have you.
CARVILLE: Welcome to the Republican Party. I have just asked you a question.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Let me the tell you. You've asked a question. And let me just give you an answer here.
CARVILLE: OK.
DREIER: I believe that this race is very clearly about what it is that got us here.
Five weeks from next Tuesday, by a 63 percent margin in the latest poll, Californians are going to recall Gray Davis. This election is about Gray Davis and perpetuating his policies in Cruz Bustamante. That's really what it's come down to.
CARVILLE: I've got a follow-up here.
DREIER: And we've seen a very viable, very strong alternative. And that's provided by Arnold Schwarzenegger.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Can we get Mayor Willie Brown back in here?
Mr. Mayor...
BROWN: Yes.
CARLSON: As you know, living in California, Taco Bell, which is a popular fast-food restaurant, has had a promotional going the past couple of weeks, where, if you buy one product, it's a vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger, if you buy another product, it's a vote for a recall. It's a joke.
And yet Art Torres, the head of the California Democratic Party, has apparently risen to the bait. I think this is a press release in which he says -- quote -- "Taco Bell should stick to making tacos, not rigging elections."
A, isn't it hysterical? B, is the implication that Taco Bell is part of the right-wing conspiracy?
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Well, let me assure you of one thing. I'm delighted that Taco Bell and anybody else has called in attention to this election.
What we feared more than anything else on Gray Davis' side was that there would be an absence of interest. We need everybody in the world who went to the polls last November to show up in the polls on October 7. And when that happens, Gray Davis, on October 8 and thereafter, will continue to be governor. If people go to sleep and let this election slip up on them, not only will we lose Gray Davis, we'll also be saddled with another Prop 54, which is a measure that would infect us with reference to affirmative action.
So all those things require us to be far more attentive than we've ever been for a special election.
DREIER: Willie, I will agree with you that there is -- Willie, there is a high level of political participation and a great interest in this extraordinarily unique circumstance, the likes of which the republic has never, ever seen before.
BROWN: No question. But, David, you want to keep stirring the pot. You want to keep stirring the pot.
DREIER: I'm not stirring the pot. I see this as coming -- as inevitable.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Let me -- let me -- let's go back to affirmative action, because I want to put something up on the screen and read it that is so unbelievable coming out of the mouth of a gubernatorial candidate that it almost has to be wrong.
This is what the Republican candidate, Mr. Schwarzenegger, had to say when asked about affirmative action: "We have not gotten into the affirmative action and also Proposition 54," which is going to be on the ballot. "I say we haven't gotten into these issues. I'm fleshing it out right now. I'm in meetings about that."
Now, Congressman, this is my question. I do not care what he did 25 years ago. George Bush was getting drunk driving tickets 25 years ago. What I do care about
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: And I don't want to hear what you were doing 25 years ago, James.
CARVILLE: A lot worse than drunk driving tickets or group sex, I'll tell you that.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: But this is a man -- this is a man who is running for governor of California on October the 7th that doesn't have an opinion on affirmative action, that doesn't have an opinion on a ballot issue that he's going to have to vote on. He's not a very good citizen, is he?
DREIER: You know, James, I've got to tell you, it's absolutely amazing.
What was the argument that was being used 24 hours ago? That was, well, Arnold Schwarzenegger is not being specific enough. And there are a litany of about nine issues which he came straightforward and answered very directly on. This guy, as he said, just decided to become a candidate when this recall effort was launched and when you had to file. He announced basically three weeks ago.
CARVILLE: Right.
DREIER: So he's just started this campaign. Mark my words, you are going to hear him talk about affirmative action.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Affirmative action has never been an issue in California, right? It's something that sprung up out of the well. It's just a brand-new thing, isn't it?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: James, James...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: This is Martin Luther King's -- this is the day Martin Luther King made the speech.
DREIER: Absolutely.
BROWN: "I have a dream." Everybody in America is focused on that.
And let me tell you, Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing himself harm by not standing up for all of those principles and making sure that Prop 54 doesn't become law in this state, and do it in memory of Martin Luther King.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Gentlemen, I'm afraid we're going to have to stop on that note. I'm sorry.
DREIER: Willie, he is standing up for those principles. He's standing up for those principles very courageously.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All right, I'm going to have to stand for the principle of commercial breaks, Congressman, I'm afraid.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Ladies and gentlemen -- Mayor Willie Brown from San Francisco, Congressman David Dreier, thank you very much, both.
DREIER: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BROWN: It is time for our "Ask the Audience" question, which, today, is rated PG-13. So those of you who are over 13 years old, take out your voting devices and tell us, should Arnold Schwarzenegger's sex life be a factor in the election? We're talking, of course, about group sex. Press one for yes. Press two for no.
And we'll return in just a moment with the results of that poll.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
The results of our audience poll, in which we asked about "Oui" magazine. It's been defunct for some time, but an interview with Schwarzenegger from 1977 has come to light in which he brags from engaging in group sex. The question is, does anybody care? The answer is, 17 percent do; 83 percent don't.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm telling you, James, I'm from California.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: And I don't have exactly my finger on the pulse of the average California voter. I'm not quite sure how Gray Davis got elected. But I am certain that this revelation is going to help Arnold Schwarzenegger. It humanizes
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me tell you. I think, in that state, I don't think, if somebody thought he would get them out of the budget deficit, he could be at 1,000 Mazola (ph) parties, it wouldn't matter. I don't think -- and I mean it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What's a Mazola party?
CARVILLE: One day
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: It's a '50s thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You never heard of a Mazola party?
CARLSON: Not being from Louisiana, no, we don't have Mazola parties.
You want to hear the saddest thing I've heard in a long time, is that -- Willie Brown pointed out a couple of weeks ago that nobody likes Gray Davis. Everyone knows that. But Sharon Davis, his wife, has apparently said that she's going to be voting for Cruz Bustamante, the lieutenant governor, should the recall pass. Can you imagine how embarrassed you would be if your wife comes out and says she is going to vote for another man?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I think anybody -- in the end, I think a lot of people will vote no on the recall and yes for Bustamante, because you want to be -- because it's only common sense.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Right. But shouldn't she be pretending it's too awful, something, even to contemplate?
CARVILLE: No. I think Gray Davis would vote no on the recall and for Bustamante. Who wouldn't
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... be sobbing in the corner at that point.
Our viewers are firing back about California. Others want to know what exactly James Carville was doing during his vacation. We'll make him tell us when next.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Welcome back.
You've been watching a smoking-hot CROSSFIRE. And now we're getting hotter and hotter and hotter, as it's time for "Fireback," your turn to tell us what you think.
"I don't understand why California Republicans are so upset with Gray Davis for the budget shortfall. He's simply following Bush's lead."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: All right, Adam. No, actually, he's not. Bush's is a lot bigger than his.
CARLSON: It's all Bush's fault.
CARVILLE: That is true.
CARLSON: Rand Brown of Oswego, New York, writes: "If Arianna Huffington and Arnold Schwarzenegger were to debate, who would translate? James Carville?"
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Rand, I'll tell you one damn thing, son. It's coming up on mountain, a big old thing hit me up upside the head and... (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: See, that's not far off from reality. That's the thing.
CARVILLE: That's the thing. You're right.
"James, I never thought I would say this, but I'm glad you're back. Your guest hosts were great, but were no match for the political guile of the Rajun Cajun" -- Sam Kenyon, Easton, Pennsylvania.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Well, thank you, Sam. That was very nice of you.
And I was with my darling wife and precious two little angel children. And we spent three weeks in Italy, primarily in southern Tuscany, and had a great time. And we ate a lot of good food and saw the -- the Palio in Siena is the greatest thing I've ever seen. It is.
CARLSON: I think you're leaving one thing out, James. And that's who you went with.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And that's the topic of our next e-mail.
Timothy Collins of Rock Springs, Wyoming, writes: "James, what was it like to read the tarot cards with Barbra Streisand last week?"
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: She came along? You can admit it.
CARVILLE: She came along. Babs came along. She was right there. The whole left-wing Hollywood diva was there.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Are you kidding me?
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Steve from Tarzana, California.
We hold our CEOs of our Fortune 500 companies accountable for their financial performance, and yet -- we will remove them when they don't succeed. So what is so wrong with removing Gray Davis when he has turned California into financial straits?
CARVILLE: Well, why don't you remove George W. Bush? He's put the United States in a financial disaster. If that was the case, we wouldn't have a governor left in America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, I don't know. I think -- I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of a recall. It does seem to me California ought to have to live with the products of their choices. On the other hand, it's much easier to connect Gray Davis to California's fiscal problems than the president to America's.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Why? It's easier to connect the president to America's fiscal problems.
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim from Hackettstown, New Jersey.
I'm just wondering, with this deficit not being created overnight, what recalling the governor can do with a problem of this magnitude.
CARLSON: I mean, I'll be the first to admit, probably nothing. I don't think there's any evidence Arnold Schwarzenegger has any idea what to do about it either, but he's much less annoying than the current governor.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And that seems to me what is driving Californians. I do think it is a personality issue. Perhaps James has a deeper reading.
CARVILLE: Yes, I don't know. I think it's ludicrous for a man to be running for the governor of California and not to have a opinion on affirmative action, when it's been one of the dominant, divisive issues -- doesn't have an opinion on ballot initiatives. But, hell, this is America. Anybody can run for anything.
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott from Brooklyn, New York.
Where's the loyalty with the lieutenant governor to immediately say he's going to challenge his own boss, the governor?
CARLSON: Where's the loyalty from the governor's wife, who says she's going to vote for the lieutenant governor? It's wrong!
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I think the Democrats are smart. I think the Republicans would have loved it if they had just had this and didn't have a plan B. That's the problem with Iraq. We had a plan A and no plan B. And that's why we're stuck.
CARLSON: Iraq?
CARVILLE: It's always smart to have a plan B.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE, the Friday edition.
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Aired August 28, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Arnold Schwarzenegger gets frank, and not just about politics. Will a two-decade-old interview hurt his chances in the election? And how about his stance on abortion, gun control and other issues?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE SEAN HANNITY SHOW")
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: Do you support gay marriage?
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I do support domestic partnership.
HANNITY: But not gay marriage?
SCHWARZENEGGER: No.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Arnold Schwarzenegger is finally talking about the issues. But an old interview in "Oui" magazine is awfully revealing, too. We'll debate it in a few minutes, right after we take the wraps off the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
I've always accused George Bush of not calling on anybody to make any sacrifice. Now he's found some folks who will, federal employees. That's right. Yesterday, President Bush decided, in light of a $500 billion deficit caused by him and nearly $2 trillion in tax cuts, largely about one percent of the people, the only 1 percent that get anything out of this tax cut, raises to federal employees get only 2 percent. So what did Dick Cheney -- so while Dick Cheney's company, Halliburton, gets hundreds of millions of dollars in no-bid contracts with the U.S. government and millionaires get an average of $53,000 in tax breaks, federal employees like park rangers and FBI agents, scientists at the NIH and Homeland Security staffers, whose average salary is $36,000, get the shaft. Congratulations, President Bush, for taking another brave stand against America's middle class.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: So, James, let me see if I get this right. You don't think that middle-income people ought to have a tax break? You have said that quite a bit on our show. So the only middle-income people who ought to get any kind of break at all are federal employees, unionized federal employees who vote Democratic?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I never said middle-income...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually...
CARVILLE: I never said middle-income people shouldn't get a tax break. You know that's the case.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I said the rich shouldn't get a tax break.
CARLSON: Every night, James.
CARVILLE: I never said the middle income. You show it. And I'll tell you what...
CARLSON: You can shout me down all you want, James.
CARVILLE: You dislike -- you dislike federal employees, because they're not powerful enough for you.
CARLSON: Oh, James, you have never even met anybody...
CARVILLE: In your power-centric
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You can't suck up to powerful people enough.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You so much care about powerful people's approval. It's what defines you.
CARLSON: That is such a stupid lie.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: That I'm just going to ignore it and keep going forward.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: First, there was "The Neverending Story." Now we have the never-deciding candidate. "The New York Times" reports, former NATO Commander and suspected Democrat Wesley Clark is telling friends he wants to join the race for president, but he's putting off a final decision until he thinks he has a realistic chance of getting the nomination.
The paper guesses that will come some time after September 15. Well, maybe a long, long time after September 15th. A draft-Clark rally in New York City last night drew a whopping total of about 100 people. That's 100 out of eight million.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: The people are speaking -- very softly. Come back to CNN, General. You are a terrific military analyst. And we miss you.
CARVILLE: Well, I will tell you what. He was certainly very brilliant when he said that this thing in Iraq is the stupidest thing this country has done since Vietnam. I hope it doesn't turn out to be more stupid
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, but it shows you -- no, but truly
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Stop the shouting for a second and engage this idea, if you're capable of it.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And that is that the Democratic field is so weak, that there are Democrats really looking for someone else, a 10th candidate.
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. It's so much stronger than the current occupant, who has not succeeded at a single thing, other than helping his campaign contributors.
And every Democratic candidate in here is not going to pollute the air, is not going to lie to get us into war.
CARLSON: Oh. CARVILLE: And is not going to take a $5 trillion surplus and turn it into trillions of dollars in a deficit.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: James...
CARVILLE: There's no one -- there's not a person who is a Democratic candidate who is as hateful
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think a stupid intellectual argument like that gets you anywhere, James.
CARVILLE: I'm just giving you the facts. He lied to get us into war.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Good luck, James.
CARVILLE: Now, you think things in Iraq are bad? Well, what I'm going to tell you next is so big, it's breathtaking.
At a conference over in China today, the North Koreans announced that they're preparing to declare themselves a nuclear nation. Wow. Welcome to the club. What's more, they may start testing nuclear weapons. Thank you, George W. Bush. Not only has this administration abandoned Bill Clinton's policy of constructive engagement with North Korea. Our current president started calling them names, putting on his axis of evil.
It's breathtaking how the Bush administration can make any situation worse. And I thought the president promised us that invading Iraq would solve all the world's problems.
CARLSON: You got a lot of guts reading that, James, considering that it was...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: You really do, considering that it was Clinton's policy of containment under which these weapons were built.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're wrong. You are lying. You are lying. You are lying. You are lying.
CARLSON: James. OK, that's great.
CARVILLE: These weapons were built -- these weapons were built because of the plutonium that was there. You've got to learn to tell the truth, son. You don't know what it is. You don't know what it is. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You've got some sort of emotional connection. But the fact is, James, it shows how little you understand that this announcement...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hear me. This announcement today irritated the Chinese, who are the key to keeping North Korea under control. They are the spring from which North Korea gets its power. You make the Chinese mad and they may actually force the North Koreans into line.
CARVILLE: I hope they do. I hope they do.
CARLSON: But you don't understand anything about it.
CARVILLE: I hope the Chinese do something smart, because we haven't.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I know everything about it. And I know we lied to get into this war.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: And I know we said, if we got into war, we would straighten the thing with North Korea. And we've done neither.
CARLSON: Whatever that means.
But now, it's time for yet more international news. France has announced that it faces a dangerous overabundance of happiness and goodwill.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: In response, the Chirac government may soon take steps to abolish Christmas. One of France's 11 national holidays will be eliminated, with the money diverted to pay for health care costs for the elderly.
Labor unions are expected to protect most secular holidays, leaving perhaps only December 25. Merry Labor Day.
Meanwhile, to the north, a severe humor shortage has been reported in Canada. Canada's passport office announced that, as of this fall, citizens will be forbidden from smiling in passport photos.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Hairpieces are still welcome, but no mirth. Employees of the passport checkers union immediately voiced protests, arguing that looking at pictures of Canadians all day is difficult enough.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Scowling Canadians, no one should have to face that. And for a visual aid, James, I want you to take a look up here. We have a before and after.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: This is a smiling Canadian.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: While this, meanwhile, is a scowling Canadian.
CARVILLE: There you go.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And imagine spending all day looking at that. Now, that is -- nobody should have to do that.
CARVILLE: There you go. No one should. Thank God my wife and kids can still stand me.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: You make a good -- you make a good-looking Canadian, I have to say.
CARVILLE: There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: I like Canada, actually.
CARLSON: So do I.
Next: Arnold Schwarzenegger on sex a long time ago and on the issues now. Which will California voters care more about? We'll debate that. You won't want to miss a moment of it. We'll have guests, including San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown.
We'll be right back.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Arnold Schwarzenegger hasn't had a whole lot to say about the issues in California, but he called some radio shows yesterday. Well, everyone knows he's pro-abortion, pro-gun control, pro-domestic partnership. He's for medical marijuana, but against offshore oil drilling. The right-wingers will love all of that. Now his embarrassing 1977 interview about the sex secrets of bodybuilders has surfaced in an old issue of "Oui" magazine.
In the CROSSFIRE to talk about Arnold running and his mouth are San Francisco's Democratic mayor, Willie Brown; and, in Los Angeles, Republican Congressman David Dreier, one of the Schwarzenegger campaign's co-chairmen.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, thanks for joining us. I'm sure...
WILLIE BROWN (D), MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: Hello, Tucker.
CARLSON: Hi.
I'm sure, by now, you've read the "Oui" interview, in which candidate Schwarzenegger boasts about engaging in group sex. It seems obvious to me this is going to help him with California voters.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: My question to you is, in light of that, do you think Gray Davis will brag that he, too, has engaged in group sex, and will anyone believe him?
BROWN: Oh, no, no, no.
First of all, they wouldn't believe him if he did. And, secondly, he would never acknowledge or admit that. My candidate, Gray Davis, is a pretty substantial guy. He's been in this business now for so many years. He's been statewide five times. And they've obviously inspected him up one side of the wall and down the other. You'll find nothing in his background that would ever equate with group sex.
CARLSON: OK. Well, that's obviously going to...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: One of the reasons Californians don't like him, because he seems like the kind of guy you'd never find in a dog pile.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: My question to you is, the efforts by California Democrats to bring up things about Arnold Schwarzenegger's past, like the group sex, like smoking dope, that's not going to hurt Schwarzenegger at all in the end, is it?
BROWN: Well, I think it will with the more conservative voters, who go to the polls with great regularity, because he now has to explain that previous conduct. But be clear. I don't think it's Democrats who are bringing that up. As a matter of fact, Democrats would like to have no one even mention Arnold's name. We'd like very much to have you forgo the incredible star power that comes with that name. So you can be assured that we didn't bring it up. Arnold is bringing all this stuff upon himself by hiding, by refusing to debate, by refusing to be interviewed by the free press.
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Oh, come on, Willie.
BROWN: And, in particular, by -- be interviewed as we're doing here today. And, as a result of that, the journalists themselves have gone back and said, these are the reasons why he doesn't want to be interviewed.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Arnold's had a wide range of interviews. Arnold has had a wide range of interviews just this week. He's at this moment in Fresno in the Central Valley campaigning. He's gone door to door talking to people.
And I will tell you that I would not, Willie, continue to use the line that Gray Davis is more substantial than Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think, in every way, Arnold is more substantial. But the whole thrust to this program, the whole thrust to this program...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Congressman. Wait, wait. Stop. Stop. Wait, Congressman. I'm going to have to stop you right there. What in the world did you mean by that? Let's be very specific.
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: Well, what I -- I will tell you that we know...
CARLSON: Congressman, tell me.
DREIER: That Arnold is much more substantial, you mean? Obviously, just looking at the two standing side by side, that's what I'm talking about. And I believe that he's more substantial...
CARVILLE: Congressman, can this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) get in this poker game? Name me three issues...
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Is that that smiling Canadian? Is that the smiling Canadian?
CARVILLE: It is.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Tell the people of California three social issues that Arnold Schwarzenegger and Howard Dean disagree on.
DREIER: That Howard Dean and Arnold Schwarzenegger -- I don't know.
CARVILLE: Yes, three social issues.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Is there a presidential campaign going on for the Democrats? Or is there a Democratic presidential campaign?
CARVILLE: Do you know -- and again -- let me ask you again. Is there any difference on social issues between Howard Dean and Arnold Schwarzenegger?
DREIER: You know what? I don't know what Howard Dean's positions are. I hear that he's a big supporter of gun rights.
CARVILLE: Well, let me give you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He's pro-choice. He's pro-choice.
DREIER: On the gun issue...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: OK. I got you. So he's more liberal socially. Arnold Schwarzenegger is more of a social liberal than Howard Dean.
DREIER: James, my friend, welcome back. We're glad to have you.
CARVILLE: Welcome to the Republican Party. I have just asked you a question.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Let me the tell you. You've asked a question. And let me just give you an answer here.
CARVILLE: OK.
DREIER: I believe that this race is very clearly about what it is that got us here.
Five weeks from next Tuesday, by a 63 percent margin in the latest poll, Californians are going to recall Gray Davis. This election is about Gray Davis and perpetuating his policies in Cruz Bustamante. That's really what it's come down to.
CARVILLE: I've got a follow-up here.
DREIER: And we've seen a very viable, very strong alternative. And that's provided by Arnold Schwarzenegger.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Can we get Mayor Willie Brown back in here?
Mr. Mayor...
BROWN: Yes.
CARLSON: As you know, living in California, Taco Bell, which is a popular fast-food restaurant, has had a promotional going the past couple of weeks, where, if you buy one product, it's a vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger, if you buy another product, it's a vote for a recall. It's a joke.
And yet Art Torres, the head of the California Democratic Party, has apparently risen to the bait. I think this is a press release in which he says -- quote -- "Taco Bell should stick to making tacos, not rigging elections."
A, isn't it hysterical? B, is the implication that Taco Bell is part of the right-wing conspiracy?
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Well, let me assure you of one thing. I'm delighted that Taco Bell and anybody else has called in attention to this election.
What we feared more than anything else on Gray Davis' side was that there would be an absence of interest. We need everybody in the world who went to the polls last November to show up in the polls on October 7. And when that happens, Gray Davis, on October 8 and thereafter, will continue to be governor. If people go to sleep and let this election slip up on them, not only will we lose Gray Davis, we'll also be saddled with another Prop 54, which is a measure that would infect us with reference to affirmative action.
So all those things require us to be far more attentive than we've ever been for a special election.
DREIER: Willie, I will agree with you that there is -- Willie, there is a high level of political participation and a great interest in this extraordinarily unique circumstance, the likes of which the republic has never, ever seen before.
BROWN: No question. But, David, you want to keep stirring the pot. You want to keep stirring the pot.
DREIER: I'm not stirring the pot. I see this as coming -- as inevitable.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Let me -- let me -- let's go back to affirmative action, because I want to put something up on the screen and read it that is so unbelievable coming out of the mouth of a gubernatorial candidate that it almost has to be wrong.
This is what the Republican candidate, Mr. Schwarzenegger, had to say when asked about affirmative action: "We have not gotten into the affirmative action and also Proposition 54," which is going to be on the ballot. "I say we haven't gotten into these issues. I'm fleshing it out right now. I'm in meetings about that."
Now, Congressman, this is my question. I do not care what he did 25 years ago. George Bush was getting drunk driving tickets 25 years ago. What I do care about
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: And I don't want to hear what you were doing 25 years ago, James.
CARVILLE: A lot worse than drunk driving tickets or group sex, I'll tell you that.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: But this is a man -- this is a man who is running for governor of California on October the 7th that doesn't have an opinion on affirmative action, that doesn't have an opinion on a ballot issue that he's going to have to vote on. He's not a very good citizen, is he?
DREIER: You know, James, I've got to tell you, it's absolutely amazing.
What was the argument that was being used 24 hours ago? That was, well, Arnold Schwarzenegger is not being specific enough. And there are a litany of about nine issues which he came straightforward and answered very directly on. This guy, as he said, just decided to become a candidate when this recall effort was launched and when you had to file. He announced basically three weeks ago.
CARVILLE: Right.
DREIER: So he's just started this campaign. Mark my words, you are going to hear him talk about affirmative action.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Affirmative action has never been an issue in California, right? It's something that sprung up out of the well. It's just a brand-new thing, isn't it?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: James, James...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: This is Martin Luther King's -- this is the day Martin Luther King made the speech.
DREIER: Absolutely.
BROWN: "I have a dream." Everybody in America is focused on that.
And let me tell you, Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing himself harm by not standing up for all of those principles and making sure that Prop 54 doesn't become law in this state, and do it in memory of Martin Luther King.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Gentlemen, I'm afraid we're going to have to stop on that note. I'm sorry.
DREIER: Willie, he is standing up for those principles. He's standing up for those principles very courageously.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All right, I'm going to have to stand for the principle of commercial breaks, Congressman, I'm afraid.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Ladies and gentlemen -- Mayor Willie Brown from San Francisco, Congressman David Dreier, thank you very much, both.
DREIER: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BROWN: It is time for our "Ask the Audience" question, which, today, is rated PG-13. So those of you who are over 13 years old, take out your voting devices and tell us, should Arnold Schwarzenegger's sex life be a factor in the election? We're talking, of course, about group sex. Press one for yes. Press two for no.
And we'll return in just a moment with the results of that poll.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
The results of our audience poll, in which we asked about "Oui" magazine. It's been defunct for some time, but an interview with Schwarzenegger from 1977 has come to light in which he brags from engaging in group sex. The question is, does anybody care? The answer is, 17 percent do; 83 percent don't.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm telling you, James, I'm from California.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: And I don't have exactly my finger on the pulse of the average California voter. I'm not quite sure how Gray Davis got elected. But I am certain that this revelation is going to help Arnold Schwarzenegger. It humanizes
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me tell you. I think, in that state, I don't think, if somebody thought he would get them out of the budget deficit, he could be at 1,000 Mazola (ph) parties, it wouldn't matter. I don't think -- and I mean it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What's a Mazola party?
CARVILLE: One day
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: It's a '50s thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You never heard of a Mazola party?
CARLSON: Not being from Louisiana, no, we don't have Mazola parties.
You want to hear the saddest thing I've heard in a long time, is that -- Willie Brown pointed out a couple of weeks ago that nobody likes Gray Davis. Everyone knows that. But Sharon Davis, his wife, has apparently said that she's going to be voting for Cruz Bustamante, the lieutenant governor, should the recall pass. Can you imagine how embarrassed you would be if your wife comes out and says she is going to vote for another man?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I think anybody -- in the end, I think a lot of people will vote no on the recall and yes for Bustamante, because you want to be -- because it's only common sense.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Right. But shouldn't she be pretending it's too awful, something, even to contemplate?
CARVILLE: No. I think Gray Davis would vote no on the recall and for Bustamante. Who wouldn't
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... be sobbing in the corner at that point.
Our viewers are firing back about California. Others want to know what exactly James Carville was doing during his vacation. We'll make him tell us when next.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Welcome back.
You've been watching a smoking-hot CROSSFIRE. And now we're getting hotter and hotter and hotter, as it's time for "Fireback," your turn to tell us what you think.
"I don't understand why California Republicans are so upset with Gray Davis for the budget shortfall. He's simply following Bush's lead."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: All right, Adam. No, actually, he's not. Bush's is a lot bigger than his.
CARLSON: It's all Bush's fault.
CARVILLE: That is true.
CARLSON: Rand Brown of Oswego, New York, writes: "If Arianna Huffington and Arnold Schwarzenegger were to debate, who would translate? James Carville?"
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Rand, I'll tell you one damn thing, son. It's coming up on mountain, a big old thing hit me up upside the head and... (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: See, that's not far off from reality. That's the thing.
CARVILLE: That's the thing. You're right.
"James, I never thought I would say this, but I'm glad you're back. Your guest hosts were great, but were no match for the political guile of the Rajun Cajun" -- Sam Kenyon, Easton, Pennsylvania.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Well, thank you, Sam. That was very nice of you.
And I was with my darling wife and precious two little angel children. And we spent three weeks in Italy, primarily in southern Tuscany, and had a great time. And we ate a lot of good food and saw the -- the Palio in Siena is the greatest thing I've ever seen. It is.
CARLSON: I think you're leaving one thing out, James. And that's who you went with.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And that's the topic of our next e-mail.
Timothy Collins of Rock Springs, Wyoming, writes: "James, what was it like to read the tarot cards with Barbra Streisand last week?"
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: She came along? You can admit it.
CARVILLE: She came along. Babs came along. She was right there. The whole left-wing Hollywood diva was there.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Are you kidding me?
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Steve from Tarzana, California.
We hold our CEOs of our Fortune 500 companies accountable for their financial performance, and yet -- we will remove them when they don't succeed. So what is so wrong with removing Gray Davis when he has turned California into financial straits?
CARVILLE: Well, why don't you remove George W. Bush? He's put the United States in a financial disaster. If that was the case, we wouldn't have a governor left in America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, I don't know. I think -- I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of a recall. It does seem to me California ought to have to live with the products of their choices. On the other hand, it's much easier to connect Gray Davis to California's fiscal problems than the president to America's.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Why? It's easier to connect the president to America's fiscal problems.
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim from Hackettstown, New Jersey.
I'm just wondering, with this deficit not being created overnight, what recalling the governor can do with a problem of this magnitude.
CARLSON: I mean, I'll be the first to admit, probably nothing. I don't think there's any evidence Arnold Schwarzenegger has any idea what to do about it either, but he's much less annoying than the current governor.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And that seems to me what is driving Californians. I do think it is a personality issue. Perhaps James has a deeper reading.
CARVILLE: Yes, I don't know. I think it's ludicrous for a man to be running for the governor of California and not to have a opinion on affirmative action, when it's been one of the dominant, divisive issues -- doesn't have an opinion on ballot initiatives. But, hell, this is America. Anybody can run for anything.
CARLSON: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott from Brooklyn, New York.
Where's the loyalty with the lieutenant governor to immediately say he's going to challenge his own boss, the governor?
CARLSON: Where's the loyalty from the governor's wife, who says she's going to vote for the lieutenant governor? It's wrong!
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I think the Democrats are smart. I think the Republicans would have loved it if they had just had this and didn't have a plan B. That's the problem with Iraq. We had a plan A and no plan B. And that's why we're stuck.
CARLSON: Iraq?
CARVILLE: It's always smart to have a plan B.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE, the Friday edition.
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