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CNN Crossfire
Democratic Candidates Take on President Bush
Aired September 05, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: President Bush takes aim at the economy.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have laid out a comprehensive plan for job creation all across America.
ANNOUNCER: While the Democrats take aim at the president.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This president is a miserable failure.
ANNOUNCER: And on Capitol Hill, lawmakers aim to raise their own pay, but cut AmeriCorps. Who's on target? -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Well, last night's Democratic debate showed there are plenty of strong voices and qualified candidates in my party just itching to take on President George W. Bush for what they see as his failed policies. We will look at some of the president's failures and the Democratic alternatives in a little bit.
First, the best political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The Labor Department today reported that we lost 93,000 more jobs in August and that 10,000 more Americans have simply given up hope of ever finding a job. Also today, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation reported that our nation's pensions are in worse shape than we thought. Our nation's employers are $400 billion short of what they need to fund their pensions.
President Bush sees things differently. His spokesman told reporters today -- quote -- "The economy is growing, but we want to see it grow even faster." Now, three million Americans have lost their jobs since Mr. Bush took office. Not a single net new job has been created. Perhaps Mr. Bush will understand the pain of losing your job when he loses his.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Paul, one thing you didn't make clear was, this last unemployment report shows that unemployment has actually gone down, from 6.2 percent to 6.1 percent. And the reason why that's important is that the economy is picking up. I know that's bad news for you, but the economy is getting better.
BEGALA: Bob, no, the reason it went down is a statistical anomaly. And I said that; 10,000 people dropped out. You see, the government, Mr. Bush's government, doesn't survey people who have given up hope. We lost 93,000 jobs, but unemployment went down. But that's because of the statistic anomaly that people gave up hope.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: There's a terrific new book soon to be published by the last conservative Southern Democrat in the U.S. Senate, Zell Miller of Georgia. The title tells it all, "A National Party No More: The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat."
Senator Miller will never again run for public office, so I won't hurt him if I call him my kind of Democrat, a tax-cutter, budget- cutter, social conservative, advocate of a strong military. I've read the page proofs, and he deplores the nastiness of today's Democrats. But he has praise for Paul Begala, who helped him get elected governor.
Paul, it's a book you need to read.
BEGALA: I cannot wait to read it. I love Zell Miller. And I'm surprised to see you praise a guy who gave Bill Clinton's keynote address at the convention in '94, helped get Bill Clinton elected, who is pro-choice, pro-hate crimes, pro-McCain-Feingold campaign reform, pro-prescription drugs, pro-farm bill, and against privatizing Social Security.
So call me a Zell Miller Democrat. I love Zell Miller. He's one of my heroes.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I think you're misrepresenting him on a lot of things.
BEGALA: No, I'm not.
NOVAK: He's against partial-birth abortion.
BEGALA: That, he is.
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: He is -- he is -- he is a person that, if all the Democrats were like him, what a wonderful country we would really have.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: If all the Republicans had his decency, we'd be a great country. Anyway, we agree that we love Zell Miller. That will be, I hope, last the agreement we have tonight.
But, anyway, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that a five-year occupation of Iraq could cost you $300 billion. But, as the invasion ended, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz told the Congress that Iraq could pay for its own reconstruction, because oil revenues, he said, would soon top $100 billion. Baloney. They're actually a fraction of that.
President Bush ought to fire the three stooges of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Rice, or, better still, make them patrol the Sunni triangle in 120-degree heat, all because an Andover cheerleader and a couple of pinhead professionals wanted to invade a country that was no threat to America. Now, Secretary Wolfowitz was spotted last night boogying the night away at an NFL kickoff party here in Washington. The only place he ought to be boogying is in Baghdad.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, Paul, there is a -- I really do believe that making fun and calling names of public servants is really not a very good idea. I never even did it when your crowd was in. I never made fun of you.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But I do believe that the -- that Iraq will be a self- sufficient country. Its oil will, in time, be self-sufficient. We just have to get over these rough spots. And you don't want Saddam Hussein to come back and run the country, so it will save us this money, do you?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: No, nobody wants Saddam Hussein to come back. But I want a president who tells us the truth and a team that doesn't botch it. And that's not what we have right now.
NOVAK: They're doing it again. The House has just agreed to a 2.2 percent pay increase for -- guess who? -- themselves, of course. They
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: They raise their pay every two years. It's gone up $18,000 in the last four years to a hefty $154,000. Naturally, it was passed by voice vote, so nobody had to go officially on record for or against. One Congressman, Jim Matheson of Utah, a Democrat, had the guts to get up and say his colleagues were wrong in raising their pay. Could they at least vote on it? They voted 240-173 not to vote on it. Congressmen may not take care of the public business very well, but they sure do take care of themselves.
BEGALA: OK, this is a record. Twice in one night, I agree with you. This is an outrage. Who controls the House, by the way? Who controls the Congress, guys? The Republicans. If the Republicans didn't want to raise congressional pay, they could have stopped it, but they didn't. And it was, as you know, a Democrat who tried to stop it.
These same Republicans who raised their own pay today are taking away a couple of thousand dollars from kids who really our country better than most congressman do, the AmeriCorps volunteers. Shame on them.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You would make the apple in the Garden of Eden a partisan thing, Paul.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: But, as a matter of fact, the Democrats were raising their pay, too, when they were in control. So it is a bipartisan sin. It is not -- it is not on one side. And what we need to get rid of them is term limits.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Oh, no, I'm not for that.
NOVAK: Let's see whether the members of our studio audience think their lawmakers are doing such a good job that they deserve another pay increase. Now, take out your voting devices right now and tell us, should Congress get a pay raise? Press one for, yes, Congress is doing such a great job, everybody deserves an across-the- board pay raise. Or press two for, no, no pay raise. Sorry. There's no third choice for cutting their pay and tell them to get the hell home.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Good thing. A couple of members of Congress will be here next. And we'll ask them about the president and that wonderful gang of nine that wants to replace him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. With the exception of the Reverend Al Sharpton, who couldn't make it, the Democratic presidential candidates did themselves proud during last night's debate in Albuquerque, New Mexico. In addition to laying out their ideas on foreign and domestic policy, they assailed President Bush's failures on Iraq, on international relations, the economy, health care, energy. Ah, but then they ran out of time before they could cover the rest of Mr. Bush's disastrous policies. So we'll pick it up here.
Stepping into the CROSSFIRE: Democratic Congressman Bob Filner of California and Republican Congressman Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Filner, let me show you a little medley of the five leading candidates, what they had to say last night in New Mexico.
Come on. We're going to have -- there we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because the troops that are there need that...
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believed from the beginning that we should not go into Iraq without the United Nations as our partner. And in this situation...
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: According to the highest values and traditions of our country, which is to work with...
GEPHARDT: He needed to get their help. He needed to get NATO's help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or can the United States cede in order to get the cooperation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... to create whole new industry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: What's going on here? What happened to the thing we were supposed to put up there?
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Anyway.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Those were some good-looking candidates. I'd take any one of them to be my president.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, anyway, what we were supposed to -- there it is. Come on. We're going to show it again.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Here's the good stuff, the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEPHARDT: ... on the economy. And he's got to be replaced.
DEAN: This president is going to have to go back to the very people he humiliated.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This president had no plan.
KERRY: He failed in his diplomacy.
LIEBERMAN: This administration let down our troops.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That is one of the fundamental problems with this administration. It will not recognize that there are consequences to your action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: True that in your party, all you can do is attack George W. Bush? There are no ideas, no proposals, no vision? It's just attack, bash Bush?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
REP. BOB FILNER (D), CALIFORNIA: Look, if you're going to run against a failed president, you've got to point out to the voters where he failed. And he has failed us on the economy. He's failed us in foreign policy. We will see, as the campaign goes on, and as they have more time to lay out their ideas, they will lay out -- they've already laid out health care plans. They've laid out plans for producing jobs. They've laid out plans for...
NOVAK: Doesn't that negativism bother you a little bit, Mr. Filner?
FILNER: No, because the president is the incumbent. You cannot run an election against the incumbent without pointing out where he has failed. Why replace him? BEGALA: Congressman Toomey, first, thank you, as well as Congressman Filner, for coming in on a Friday afternoon.
An issue that they didn't get to -- I mentioned that they didn't cover everything -- is one that's near and dear to my heart. And that's AmeriCorps, President Clinton's national service program, one that he inherited from President Bush's father, a bipartisan issue. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton spoke at an AmeriCorps rally this week. And here's what she had to say.
She said: "I know personally that when my husband," the former president, "spoke with the present President Bush as they were changing the leadership of the country, the only thing my husband asked President Bush was to take care of AmeriCorps and national service, that this was a worthy effort to build on the points of light, but to take it far beyond that."
Mr. Bush gave his word not only to President Clinton, but to the entire country that he would increase AmeriCorps. Instead, he's cutting it by 60 percent. Shouldn't our president keep his word to those AmeriCorps volunteers?
REP. PAT TOOMEY (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I think the president proposed an increase in AmeriCorps. And this is going to be one of the very few areas -- because I think the world of President Bush, think he's a fabulous president. And he will easily be reelected, in my view. But I disagree with him on AmeriCorps.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Has he ever called you, then, to lobby you? Has he lifted a finger? Has he spent one ounce of his credibility?
TOOMEY: I have to tell you, given all of the concerns that the president has had to wrestle with, I don't think he should be on the phone talking to me about AmeriCorps.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He gave his word. He gave his word.
TOOMEY: I think he's got more important things to worry about, Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Filner, let me see if we can get Secretary of State Powell up, something he said yesterday -- or today, I believe.
That sounds good.
(LAUGHTER)
FILNER: I've never seen him more eloquent.
(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: Yes, he's very good. That's called the lip-reading thing.
What he said was that the resolution for the United Nations would authorize a United Nations multinational force, with a U.S. commander. Now, are you so far out -- you're supposed to be the most left-wing member of Congress.
(CROSSTALK)
FILNER: Thank you for that introduction.
NOVAK: Are you so far out that you object to having -- insisting on a U.S. commander over our troops in a multinational U.N. force?
FILNER: I represent a fairly conservative district. And I've been only reelected six times. So they think I'm doing a good job there.
But we did this all wrong. We went in there on our own, without the support of the world community. And we are now finding out that was a big mistake. And we're going to be begging for help now from the United Nations. The United Nations and the other countries that want to help want to come in where they have the ability to shape what's going on. They're not going to just come in and save our rear ends. They want to come in and shape the development as it should occur. So...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Could you answer my question?
FILNER: Look...
(CROSSTALK)
FILNER: This should be a United Nations effort to reconstruct Iraq.
NOVAK: You object to insisting on a U.S. commander?
FILNER: I think the United Nations should take over. And we should take the $60 billion that we want to put in Iraq and put it in for jobs for Americans.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Toomey, it's not only Bob Filner, liberal, who is criticizing our president's failure on the occupation in Iraq. It's the former head of CENTCOM, Anthony Zinni.
The distinguished Marine Corps general told this to "The Washington Post" today: "There's no strategy or mechanism for putting the pieces together. We're in danger of failing. Why the hell would the Department of Defense be the organization in our government that deals with the reconstruction of Iraq? It doesn't make sense." General Zinni is right. And President Bush should be accountable for his failure, shouldn't he?
TOOMEY: Well, President Bush should be accountable for the extraordinary success thus far.
It wasn't too long ago when people on your side of the aisle and a lot of people in the media were telling us those supply lines are too long. They're not enough troops on the ground. We're going to get bogged down. We'll never make it to Baghdad. And what happened? About two weeks later, the most stunning success in recent military history.
(APPLAUSE)
TOOMEY: Now, it was an enormous success.
Look, the reconstruction is not easy. This is not easy. Nobody thought it was going to be easy. The president never said, hey, this will be easy and cheap. This is going to be difficult. But we can't afford to fail.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: In point of fact, he actually did mislead us as to whether it would be easy or cheap.
TOOMEY: No, he did not.
BEGALA: But more importantly, it's telling that President Bush, I suppose like you, wants to take credit for our military men and women's success by playing dress-up fighter jock in an aircraft carrier.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But now he won't play president and be responsible for his failings on the occupation, will he?
TOOMEY: He's not failing. This president...
(CROSSTALK)
FILNER: ... that President Clinton created. Let's remember that.
TOOMEY: And while we are talking about the history, remember, it's the Defense Department that President Clinton kept insisting on less funding for and did nothing about Osama bin Laden, knowing full well that he was out there.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Filner, Senator Lieberman attacked your -- the leader of your party, the new leader of your party, Howard Dean, the other night, in which he said that every one -- Senator Lieberman said one of every five jobs in America is tied up with trade and that the Bush recession will be followed by the Dean depression, because Dean is a protectionist. Do you agree with that?
FILNER: Dean is not a protectionist. He wants fair trade.
That is, he wants us to trade in a way where the trading partner is responsible for environmental laws, for safeguards and for labor safeguards. It is the president's policy of tax cuts for the rich, above all, that leaves Pat Toomey's 15th Congressional District for 20,000 unemployed.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: We have got to take a break. I'm sorry.
FILNER: We got to take a break?
NOVAK: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: And after a quick break...
FILNER: You don't want to hear from me.
NOVAK: No, I don't.
And Wolf Blitzer's headlines -- we'll have our guests do the "Rapid Fire" treatment, starting with what our studio audience says about the new pay raise for these guys.
And later, one of our viewers fires back about the real message the Democrats sent to Hispanic voters on Thursday this week.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It's time for "Rapid Fire," the quickest question-and- answer session in politics. Our guests: Congressman Bob Filner, Democrat of California, Congressman Pat Toomey, Republican of Pennsylvania -- Paul.
BEGALA: Congressman Toomey, are you going to keep the pay raise?
TOOMEY: No, I never have. Since I've come to Congress during the interim pay raise, I haven't accepted it.
BEGALA: In fact, you're where most of our audience is, then. Here's what our audience -- we asked our audience, Bob, whether they supported a pay raise for congressmen or not; 90 to 10, they said no. So they're closer to you on that one, Coming.
NOVAK: Bob Filner, you voted for the pay raise. How are you going to spend it?
FILNER: Well, I'm going to make sure my new granddaughter is visited by her grandmother, so we can afford more trips across the country.
BEGALA: Under the Bush economy, poverty's gone way up, a new report said this week; 5,500 families in the Lehigh County, Pennsylvania, in your district live in poverty. Do you know what the poverty line is, Congressman?
TOOMEY: It depends on the size of the family.
BEGALA: Family of four.
TOOMEY: Family of four. It's probably somewhere in the teens of thousands.
BEGALA: It's about $18,000.
TOOMEY: About 18.
BEGALA: Yes.
NOVAK: Bob, you endorsed Howard Dean. Does that mean that Mr. Dean is the most left-wing of all the candidates?
FILNER: No, I think he's the most electable of all candidates. He's aroused the people in this nation in a way the no other candidate has. He's bringing energy and he's bringing passion. He's bringing young people in the process. And the Democrats need that energy to win.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A CBS poll this week, Congressman Toomey, said that 80 percent of our fellow persons believe the president either hid information or outright lied about Iraq. Isn't that a credibility crisis?
TOOMEY: A credibility crisis with that poll. I don't believe it for a minute. And that's not what I hear when I talk to people. That's not what my constituents say.
And, frankly, we've got a report that's coming out pretty soon. And I strongly suspect we're going to find that there's plenty of evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
NOVAK: Your colleague Congressman Kucinich said that Howard Dean can balance the budget because they don't have a Navy in Vermont. Isn't that a point, that it's easy to balance a budget when you don't have the military?
FILNER: No. Look, Howard Dean was the governor of the state for I think 10 years. And he balanced the budget and had a surplus at the end of that. That's a tough job. I don't care how small a state is.
(BELL RINGING)
FILNER: With the demands, he was able to provide children with health care, with health insurance. I think he did a great job as governor. And I think he's going to do a great job as president.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Bob Filner of California, Democrat, thank you very much. Congressman Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania, Republican, thank you both very much, gentlemen, for a fun debate.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, one of our viewers has noticed that there's a pattern in the Bush administration's handling of the truth. We'll let him fire back in just a minute.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: "Fireback," when the viewers get to fire back at us.
George Principe of West Palm Beach, Florida, says: "It seems all the presidential hopefuls told all the Latinos what they wanted to hear last night in their so-called debate, yet those are the same senators who kept Miguel Estrada from getting a vote. Typical two- faced Democrats?"
Absolutely, George. You got it exactly right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Miguel Estrada, of course, being the conservative judge who just withdrew his nomination. By the way, I didn't hear the outrage from Mr. Novak when three Hispanic Democrats weren't allowed votes by the Republicans when Bill Clinton was president. So it's a little selective.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Jo Parrish of Chesapeake, Virginia, writes: "Bob, it is a pleasure to see you back. Although I do not agree with your politics, you're the first Republican I've seen who is capable of debating issues in an intelligent manner, instead of ridiculing or trying to outshoot your opponents." So says Jo.
By the way, it's also his raw animal magnetism that we love here. Welcome back from vacation.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Thank you very much. Thank you.
Question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Jeralyn from Chandler, Arizona.
Actually, with the presidential debates last night with the Democratic candidates, they seem awfully united in their attacks against Bush right now. That seems to be their platform, basically. I was wondering, when are they going to change that strategy, and will it hurt them if they don't?
NOVAK: I'll tell you what happened, was that they realized that Mr. Dean came from nowhere because he was so mean and ugly toward George W. Bush. And so they're copycats. They want to be mean and ugly, too.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: What are they supposed to do, praise him? They're Democrats. They're in a different party. Get a clue, young lady.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, that's politics. What's different -- what's different is that it's not the politics of personal destruction. The Republicans attacked Bill Clinton not just on the issues. They attacked his private life. They tried to impeach him. They tried to throw him in jail. I mean, that's nuts.
NOVAK: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: So I think it's fine to go criticize President Bush.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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Aired September 5, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: President Bush takes aim at the economy.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have laid out a comprehensive plan for job creation all across America.
ANNOUNCER: While the Democrats take aim at the president.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This president is a miserable failure.
ANNOUNCER: And on Capitol Hill, lawmakers aim to raise their own pay, but cut AmeriCorps. Who's on target? -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Well, last night's Democratic debate showed there are plenty of strong voices and qualified candidates in my party just itching to take on President George W. Bush for what they see as his failed policies. We will look at some of the president's failures and the Democratic alternatives in a little bit.
First, the best political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The Labor Department today reported that we lost 93,000 more jobs in August and that 10,000 more Americans have simply given up hope of ever finding a job. Also today, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation reported that our nation's pensions are in worse shape than we thought. Our nation's employers are $400 billion short of what they need to fund their pensions.
President Bush sees things differently. His spokesman told reporters today -- quote -- "The economy is growing, but we want to see it grow even faster." Now, three million Americans have lost their jobs since Mr. Bush took office. Not a single net new job has been created. Perhaps Mr. Bush will understand the pain of losing your job when he loses his.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Paul, one thing you didn't make clear was, this last unemployment report shows that unemployment has actually gone down, from 6.2 percent to 6.1 percent. And the reason why that's important is that the economy is picking up. I know that's bad news for you, but the economy is getting better.
BEGALA: Bob, no, the reason it went down is a statistical anomaly. And I said that; 10,000 people dropped out. You see, the government, Mr. Bush's government, doesn't survey people who have given up hope. We lost 93,000 jobs, but unemployment went down. But that's because of the statistic anomaly that people gave up hope.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: There's a terrific new book soon to be published by the last conservative Southern Democrat in the U.S. Senate, Zell Miller of Georgia. The title tells it all, "A National Party No More: The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat."
Senator Miller will never again run for public office, so I won't hurt him if I call him my kind of Democrat, a tax-cutter, budget- cutter, social conservative, advocate of a strong military. I've read the page proofs, and he deplores the nastiness of today's Democrats. But he has praise for Paul Begala, who helped him get elected governor.
Paul, it's a book you need to read.
BEGALA: I cannot wait to read it. I love Zell Miller. And I'm surprised to see you praise a guy who gave Bill Clinton's keynote address at the convention in '94, helped get Bill Clinton elected, who is pro-choice, pro-hate crimes, pro-McCain-Feingold campaign reform, pro-prescription drugs, pro-farm bill, and against privatizing Social Security.
So call me a Zell Miller Democrat. I love Zell Miller. He's one of my heroes.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I think you're misrepresenting him on a lot of things.
BEGALA: No, I'm not.
NOVAK: He's against partial-birth abortion.
BEGALA: That, he is.
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: He is -- he is -- he is a person that, if all the Democrats were like him, what a wonderful country we would really have.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: If all the Republicans had his decency, we'd be a great country. Anyway, we agree that we love Zell Miller. That will be, I hope, last the agreement we have tonight.
But, anyway, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that a five-year occupation of Iraq could cost you $300 billion. But, as the invasion ended, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz told the Congress that Iraq could pay for its own reconstruction, because oil revenues, he said, would soon top $100 billion. Baloney. They're actually a fraction of that.
President Bush ought to fire the three stooges of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Rice, or, better still, make them patrol the Sunni triangle in 120-degree heat, all because an Andover cheerleader and a couple of pinhead professionals wanted to invade a country that was no threat to America. Now, Secretary Wolfowitz was spotted last night boogying the night away at an NFL kickoff party here in Washington. The only place he ought to be boogying is in Baghdad.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, Paul, there is a -- I really do believe that making fun and calling names of public servants is really not a very good idea. I never even did it when your crowd was in. I never made fun of you.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But I do believe that the -- that Iraq will be a self- sufficient country. Its oil will, in time, be self-sufficient. We just have to get over these rough spots. And you don't want Saddam Hussein to come back and run the country, so it will save us this money, do you?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: No, nobody wants Saddam Hussein to come back. But I want a president who tells us the truth and a team that doesn't botch it. And that's not what we have right now.
NOVAK: They're doing it again. The House has just agreed to a 2.2 percent pay increase for -- guess who? -- themselves, of course. They
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: They raise their pay every two years. It's gone up $18,000 in the last four years to a hefty $154,000. Naturally, it was passed by voice vote, so nobody had to go officially on record for or against. One Congressman, Jim Matheson of Utah, a Democrat, had the guts to get up and say his colleagues were wrong in raising their pay. Could they at least vote on it? They voted 240-173 not to vote on it. Congressmen may not take care of the public business very well, but they sure do take care of themselves.
BEGALA: OK, this is a record. Twice in one night, I agree with you. This is an outrage. Who controls the House, by the way? Who controls the Congress, guys? The Republicans. If the Republicans didn't want to raise congressional pay, they could have stopped it, but they didn't. And it was, as you know, a Democrat who tried to stop it.
These same Republicans who raised their own pay today are taking away a couple of thousand dollars from kids who really our country better than most congressman do, the AmeriCorps volunteers. Shame on them.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You would make the apple in the Garden of Eden a partisan thing, Paul.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: But, as a matter of fact, the Democrats were raising their pay, too, when they were in control. So it is a bipartisan sin. It is not -- it is not on one side. And what we need to get rid of them is term limits.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Oh, no, I'm not for that.
NOVAK: Let's see whether the members of our studio audience think their lawmakers are doing such a good job that they deserve another pay increase. Now, take out your voting devices right now and tell us, should Congress get a pay raise? Press one for, yes, Congress is doing such a great job, everybody deserves an across-the- board pay raise. Or press two for, no, no pay raise. Sorry. There's no third choice for cutting their pay and tell them to get the hell home.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Good thing. A couple of members of Congress will be here next. And we'll ask them about the president and that wonderful gang of nine that wants to replace him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. With the exception of the Reverend Al Sharpton, who couldn't make it, the Democratic presidential candidates did themselves proud during last night's debate in Albuquerque, New Mexico. In addition to laying out their ideas on foreign and domestic policy, they assailed President Bush's failures on Iraq, on international relations, the economy, health care, energy. Ah, but then they ran out of time before they could cover the rest of Mr. Bush's disastrous policies. So we'll pick it up here.
Stepping into the CROSSFIRE: Democratic Congressman Bob Filner of California and Republican Congressman Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Filner, let me show you a little medley of the five leading candidates, what they had to say last night in New Mexico.
Come on. We're going to have -- there we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because the troops that are there need that...
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believed from the beginning that we should not go into Iraq without the United Nations as our partner. And in this situation...
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: According to the highest values and traditions of our country, which is to work with...
GEPHARDT: He needed to get their help. He needed to get NATO's help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or can the United States cede in order to get the cooperation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... to create whole new industry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: What's going on here? What happened to the thing we were supposed to put up there?
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Anyway.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Those were some good-looking candidates. I'd take any one of them to be my president.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, anyway, what we were supposed to -- there it is. Come on. We're going to show it again.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Here's the good stuff, the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEPHARDT: ... on the economy. And he's got to be replaced.
DEAN: This president is going to have to go back to the very people he humiliated.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This president had no plan.
KERRY: He failed in his diplomacy.
LIEBERMAN: This administration let down our troops.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That is one of the fundamental problems with this administration. It will not recognize that there are consequences to your action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: True that in your party, all you can do is attack George W. Bush? There are no ideas, no proposals, no vision? It's just attack, bash Bush?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
REP. BOB FILNER (D), CALIFORNIA: Look, if you're going to run against a failed president, you've got to point out to the voters where he failed. And he has failed us on the economy. He's failed us in foreign policy. We will see, as the campaign goes on, and as they have more time to lay out their ideas, they will lay out -- they've already laid out health care plans. They've laid out plans for producing jobs. They've laid out plans for...
NOVAK: Doesn't that negativism bother you a little bit, Mr. Filner?
FILNER: No, because the president is the incumbent. You cannot run an election against the incumbent without pointing out where he has failed. Why replace him? BEGALA: Congressman Toomey, first, thank you, as well as Congressman Filner, for coming in on a Friday afternoon.
An issue that they didn't get to -- I mentioned that they didn't cover everything -- is one that's near and dear to my heart. And that's AmeriCorps, President Clinton's national service program, one that he inherited from President Bush's father, a bipartisan issue. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton spoke at an AmeriCorps rally this week. And here's what she had to say.
She said: "I know personally that when my husband," the former president, "spoke with the present President Bush as they were changing the leadership of the country, the only thing my husband asked President Bush was to take care of AmeriCorps and national service, that this was a worthy effort to build on the points of light, but to take it far beyond that."
Mr. Bush gave his word not only to President Clinton, but to the entire country that he would increase AmeriCorps. Instead, he's cutting it by 60 percent. Shouldn't our president keep his word to those AmeriCorps volunteers?
REP. PAT TOOMEY (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I think the president proposed an increase in AmeriCorps. And this is going to be one of the very few areas -- because I think the world of President Bush, think he's a fabulous president. And he will easily be reelected, in my view. But I disagree with him on AmeriCorps.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Has he ever called you, then, to lobby you? Has he lifted a finger? Has he spent one ounce of his credibility?
TOOMEY: I have to tell you, given all of the concerns that the president has had to wrestle with, I don't think he should be on the phone talking to me about AmeriCorps.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He gave his word. He gave his word.
TOOMEY: I think he's got more important things to worry about, Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Filner, let me see if we can get Secretary of State Powell up, something he said yesterday -- or today, I believe.
That sounds good.
(LAUGHTER)
FILNER: I've never seen him more eloquent.
(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: Yes, he's very good. That's called the lip-reading thing.
What he said was that the resolution for the United Nations would authorize a United Nations multinational force, with a U.S. commander. Now, are you so far out -- you're supposed to be the most left-wing member of Congress.
(CROSSTALK)
FILNER: Thank you for that introduction.
NOVAK: Are you so far out that you object to having -- insisting on a U.S. commander over our troops in a multinational U.N. force?
FILNER: I represent a fairly conservative district. And I've been only reelected six times. So they think I'm doing a good job there.
But we did this all wrong. We went in there on our own, without the support of the world community. And we are now finding out that was a big mistake. And we're going to be begging for help now from the United Nations. The United Nations and the other countries that want to help want to come in where they have the ability to shape what's going on. They're not going to just come in and save our rear ends. They want to come in and shape the development as it should occur. So...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Could you answer my question?
FILNER: Look...
(CROSSTALK)
FILNER: This should be a United Nations effort to reconstruct Iraq.
NOVAK: You object to insisting on a U.S. commander?
FILNER: I think the United Nations should take over. And we should take the $60 billion that we want to put in Iraq and put it in for jobs for Americans.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Toomey, it's not only Bob Filner, liberal, who is criticizing our president's failure on the occupation in Iraq. It's the former head of CENTCOM, Anthony Zinni.
The distinguished Marine Corps general told this to "The Washington Post" today: "There's no strategy or mechanism for putting the pieces together. We're in danger of failing. Why the hell would the Department of Defense be the organization in our government that deals with the reconstruction of Iraq? It doesn't make sense." General Zinni is right. And President Bush should be accountable for his failure, shouldn't he?
TOOMEY: Well, President Bush should be accountable for the extraordinary success thus far.
It wasn't too long ago when people on your side of the aisle and a lot of people in the media were telling us those supply lines are too long. They're not enough troops on the ground. We're going to get bogged down. We'll never make it to Baghdad. And what happened? About two weeks later, the most stunning success in recent military history.
(APPLAUSE)
TOOMEY: Now, it was an enormous success.
Look, the reconstruction is not easy. This is not easy. Nobody thought it was going to be easy. The president never said, hey, this will be easy and cheap. This is going to be difficult. But we can't afford to fail.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: In point of fact, he actually did mislead us as to whether it would be easy or cheap.
TOOMEY: No, he did not.
BEGALA: But more importantly, it's telling that President Bush, I suppose like you, wants to take credit for our military men and women's success by playing dress-up fighter jock in an aircraft carrier.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But now he won't play president and be responsible for his failings on the occupation, will he?
TOOMEY: He's not failing. This president...
(CROSSTALK)
FILNER: ... that President Clinton created. Let's remember that.
TOOMEY: And while we are talking about the history, remember, it's the Defense Department that President Clinton kept insisting on less funding for and did nothing about Osama bin Laden, knowing full well that he was out there.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Filner, Senator Lieberman attacked your -- the leader of your party, the new leader of your party, Howard Dean, the other night, in which he said that every one -- Senator Lieberman said one of every five jobs in America is tied up with trade and that the Bush recession will be followed by the Dean depression, because Dean is a protectionist. Do you agree with that?
FILNER: Dean is not a protectionist. He wants fair trade.
That is, he wants us to trade in a way where the trading partner is responsible for environmental laws, for safeguards and for labor safeguards. It is the president's policy of tax cuts for the rich, above all, that leaves Pat Toomey's 15th Congressional District for 20,000 unemployed.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: We have got to take a break. I'm sorry.
FILNER: We got to take a break?
NOVAK: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: And after a quick break...
FILNER: You don't want to hear from me.
NOVAK: No, I don't.
And Wolf Blitzer's headlines -- we'll have our guests do the "Rapid Fire" treatment, starting with what our studio audience says about the new pay raise for these guys.
And later, one of our viewers fires back about the real message the Democrats sent to Hispanic voters on Thursday this week.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: It's time for "Rapid Fire," the quickest question-and- answer session in politics. Our guests: Congressman Bob Filner, Democrat of California, Congressman Pat Toomey, Republican of Pennsylvania -- Paul.
BEGALA: Congressman Toomey, are you going to keep the pay raise?
TOOMEY: No, I never have. Since I've come to Congress during the interim pay raise, I haven't accepted it.
BEGALA: In fact, you're where most of our audience is, then. Here's what our audience -- we asked our audience, Bob, whether they supported a pay raise for congressmen or not; 90 to 10, they said no. So they're closer to you on that one, Coming.
NOVAK: Bob Filner, you voted for the pay raise. How are you going to spend it?
FILNER: Well, I'm going to make sure my new granddaughter is visited by her grandmother, so we can afford more trips across the country.
BEGALA: Under the Bush economy, poverty's gone way up, a new report said this week; 5,500 families in the Lehigh County, Pennsylvania, in your district live in poverty. Do you know what the poverty line is, Congressman?
TOOMEY: It depends on the size of the family.
BEGALA: Family of four.
TOOMEY: Family of four. It's probably somewhere in the teens of thousands.
BEGALA: It's about $18,000.
TOOMEY: About 18.
BEGALA: Yes.
NOVAK: Bob, you endorsed Howard Dean. Does that mean that Mr. Dean is the most left-wing of all the candidates?
FILNER: No, I think he's the most electable of all candidates. He's aroused the people in this nation in a way the no other candidate has. He's bringing energy and he's bringing passion. He's bringing young people in the process. And the Democrats need that energy to win.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A CBS poll this week, Congressman Toomey, said that 80 percent of our fellow persons believe the president either hid information or outright lied about Iraq. Isn't that a credibility crisis?
TOOMEY: A credibility crisis with that poll. I don't believe it for a minute. And that's not what I hear when I talk to people. That's not what my constituents say.
And, frankly, we've got a report that's coming out pretty soon. And I strongly suspect we're going to find that there's plenty of evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
NOVAK: Your colleague Congressman Kucinich said that Howard Dean can balance the budget because they don't have a Navy in Vermont. Isn't that a point, that it's easy to balance a budget when you don't have the military?
FILNER: No. Look, Howard Dean was the governor of the state for I think 10 years. And he balanced the budget and had a surplus at the end of that. That's a tough job. I don't care how small a state is.
(BELL RINGING)
FILNER: With the demands, he was able to provide children with health care, with health insurance. I think he did a great job as governor. And I think he's going to do a great job as president.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Bob Filner of California, Democrat, thank you very much. Congressman Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania, Republican, thank you both very much, gentlemen, for a fun debate.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, one of our viewers has noticed that there's a pattern in the Bush administration's handling of the truth. We'll let him fire back in just a minute.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: "Fireback," when the viewers get to fire back at us.
George Principe of West Palm Beach, Florida, says: "It seems all the presidential hopefuls told all the Latinos what they wanted to hear last night in their so-called debate, yet those are the same senators who kept Miguel Estrada from getting a vote. Typical two- faced Democrats?"
Absolutely, George. You got it exactly right.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Miguel Estrada, of course, being the conservative judge who just withdrew his nomination. By the way, I didn't hear the outrage from Mr. Novak when three Hispanic Democrats weren't allowed votes by the Republicans when Bill Clinton was president. So it's a little selective.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Jo Parrish of Chesapeake, Virginia, writes: "Bob, it is a pleasure to see you back. Although I do not agree with your politics, you're the first Republican I've seen who is capable of debating issues in an intelligent manner, instead of ridiculing or trying to outshoot your opponents." So says Jo.
By the way, it's also his raw animal magnetism that we love here. Welcome back from vacation.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Thank you very much. Thank you.
Question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Jeralyn from Chandler, Arizona.
Actually, with the presidential debates last night with the Democratic candidates, they seem awfully united in their attacks against Bush right now. That seems to be their platform, basically. I was wondering, when are they going to change that strategy, and will it hurt them if they don't?
NOVAK: I'll tell you what happened, was that they realized that Mr. Dean came from nowhere because he was so mean and ugly toward George W. Bush. And so they're copycats. They want to be mean and ugly, too.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: What are they supposed to do, praise him? They're Democrats. They're in a different party. Get a clue, young lady.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, that's politics. What's different -- what's different is that it's not the politics of personal destruction. The Republicans attacked Bill Clinton not just on the issues. They attacked his private life. They tried to impeach him. They tried to throw him in jail. I mean, that's nuts.
NOVAK: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: So I think it's fine to go criticize President Bush.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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