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CNN Crossfire
Madam President?
Aired September 08, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the presidential race with a woman's touch.
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have every expectation of winning this election and taking the men-only sign off the White House door.
ANNOUNCER: And a Democratic voice.
BRAUN: In the trickle-down economics...
ANNOUNCER: Is the country ready for Madam President Moseley Braun?
BRAUN: With you, we can build the bridges and make this election happen. And I can beat George Bush -- Today ON CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
One of the more surprising stars of the recent Democratic debate was a so-called second-tier candidate who stole the show from the big boys, in fact, the only candidate who is not one of the boys. And today, as every presidential candidate stood, former Senator and Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun steps into the CROSSFIRE.
Before we get to her, we'll begin, as we always do, with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
President Bush spoke to the nation last night about the debacle in Iraq. He did not accept personal presidential responsibility for his mistakes. Indeed, he didn't admit to making any mistakes at all, not even one. In contrast, after the Bay of Pigs fiasco in Cuba in 1961, President John F. Kennedy took full responsibility, even though he had inherited that invasion plan from President Eisenhower. JFK moved quickly. He fired the head of the CIA, as well as the two deputy directors who drew up the plan. And he ordered an investigation of what went wrong. The investigation cited ignorance, arrogance and incompetence on the part of the war planners. Sound familiar?
Well, obviously, George W. Bush is no JFK. A real war hero, President Kennedy never played dress-up to fly on to aircraft carriers.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Real presidents and great presidents give the glory of victory to the troops and take the responsibility for disasters for themselves. Mr. Bush should do so.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: That is such a profound mischaracterization of the Bay of Pigs and its aftermath, actually.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, it's true. President Kennedy himself, not the head of the CIA, not anybody else in his administration, withdrew air cover at the precise moment it was needed. That wasn't Eisenhower's fault and it wasn't Lyndon Johnson's fault.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He took responsibility, is the point. We can debate the Bay of Pigs, but we can't debate whether Bush should take responsibility for his mistakes, because he should, but he won't.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, President Bush uttered at least one incontestable line in his speech to the nation last night -- quote -- "We have learned that terrorist attacks are not caused by the use of strength. They're invited by the perception of weakness" -- end quote.
Well, if there's a single lesson of the Clinton years, it is just that. Consider the evidence. In 1993, six are killed when terrorists bomb the World Trade Center. Clinton does virtually nothing. Same year, 18 Americans are murdered in Somalia. Clinton pulls out American troops in the country. In 1996, terrorists blow up the Khobar Towers, killing 19 action, more inaction from the Clinton administration. In 1988, 250 people killed, more than 5,000 injured when two American embassies are blown up in Africa. Clinton refuses to initiate an all-out war on terrorism.
The administration even turns down an opportunity to take Osama bin Laden into custody, citing a conflict with what it calls international law. Two years later, 17 sailors are murdered by terrorists aboard the USS Cole. Same limp response from the Clinton White House. A year later, 9/11. You may not agree with what this president has done in Iraq, but at least he's taking terrorism seriously. And that is an improvement.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Tucker, I think...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I can tell that you're a Bush man. I can tell you're a Bush man, because I think you may even have eclipsed W. for falsehoods per second. That was a world speed record.
Bill Clinton had a plan to take on terrorism. He did take on terrorism. Every one of those instances was false. And it was George W. Bush who was handed a plan by Bill Clinton and refused to act on it to go get Osama bin Laden in 2001.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Paul, you know in your heart that the Clinton administration did not take terrorism seriously.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I don't. That is a calumny against people who gave their lives to fight terrorism in this country and prevented a whole lot of attacks.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That is a calumny.
Well, according to the Associated Press, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told reporters today that criticism of President Bush's debacle in the desert makes fighting the war on terrorism more difficult.
Now, Secretary Strangelove did not opine as to whether alienating the free world, misleading the American people, invading an Arab country that posed no threat to America and allowing it to fill up with terrorists as it falls into near chaos made fighting the war on terrorism any more difficult either. Nor did he comment on whether having a megalomaniacal, Machiavellian incompetent as secretary of defense made fighting the war of terror more difficult. He just said: Shut up America. Give us your money. Send us your sons and daughters. And shut the heck up, or the terrorists win.
Shame on Donald Rumsfeld.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm not going to use the word calumny, mostly because I'm not certain what it means. But I will say, it's not nice to call people names.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, truly.
I think there's a serious argument to be made that the Bush administration hasn't contained terror in Iraq since the victory. But I don't think you've addressed it in that "Political Alert." And I don't think you've said what we should have done about the real threat of Saddam Hussein. No Democrat has.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: What we shouldn't do is have an administration that attacks democracy in America at every turn. In order to save our freedom, we have to end our freedom, we have to curtail our freedom.
CARLSON: That's insane!
BEGALA: That's the Bush plan.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It's the Ashcroft plan. It's the Rumsfeld plan. It's the Bush plan. This is what they stand for.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Do you know what that is? Do you know what that is? That's literally a piece of direct mail. "We have to end democracy." That's so overstated.
BEGALA: This is their view. He goes and gives an interview to reporters and says you can't attack or disagree with our country's policies or it helps the terrorists. Nonsense.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: As future historians may point out, the political career of John Edwards lasted fewer than six years. Elected to the Senate in 1998 after a lucrative career as a trial lawyer specializing in Jacuzzi cases, Edwards probably could have spent another couple of decades on Capitol Hill, giving regular press conferences, invoking cloture from time to time, brushing up on his senatorial image.
But then hubris intervened. Every senator famously thinks he can be president. Edwards really thought it, so he ran. Today, Edwards announced that he will not stand for reelection in North Carolina. Instead, he will devote all of his considerable energies to securing the Democratic nomination. The only problem? Edwards is not likely to get the nomination. And he's even less likely -- far less likely -- to become the president of the United States. His relatively safe Senate seat in North Carolina, meanwhile, will probably go to a Republican. And at result, the GOP strengthens its Senate majority, Edwards goes back to suing people for a living. If it weren't so amusing, it might be a shame.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This is one of my favorite kind of stereotypes of the elite right that you play into. And that is that somehow representing people against corporations who make products that kill their children is dishonorable.
Which is more honorable, to sue a company that makes a product that kills children or to sell oil field equipment to Saddam Hussein, which is what Dick Cheney did when George Bush picked him to be on the ticket? I'll take the trial lawyers every day of the week.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: I would love to take that seriously, but it makes so little sense, I can't.
BEGALA: Which is more honorable? It's a simple choice, Tucker.
CARLSON: All I can say is, suing people actually makes America a much less happy, friendly place.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... equipment to Saddam Hussein?
CARLSON: I don't know what you're talking about.
BEGALA: Dick Cheney sold oil field equipment to Saddam Hussein.
CARLSON: Next: a presidential candidate who wants national health insurance, higher pay for women and campaigns against she calls trickle-down economics. Is that got a formula for surging to the Democratic nomination? Carol Moseley Braun steps into the CROSSFIRE next.
We'll be right back.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
She has served as a United States senator from Illinois and, in her words, United States ambassador to paradise. That would be New Zealand, Samoa, the Cook Islands and, yes, Antarctica. Now she's a Democratic candidate for president, a job heretofore reserved for white males.
Please welcome Carol Moseley Braun to the CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Madam Ambassador, thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAUN: Hello, Tucker. How are you? Nice to see you.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: Thank you.
CARLSON: Senator, Ambassador, thank you for joining us.
BRAUN: Delighted to be with you.
CARLSON: You said in the Democratic debate in New Mexico -- I'm paraphrasing this -- pretty much, you said, Americans don't cut and run, referring to Iraq. You clearly believe that we need to finish the job we started.
Considering that we're probably not going to get any troops from Europe, probably not going to get many troops from Turkey or India, how many American troops do you think we're going to need in Iraq and for how long, specifically, over the next two years?
BRAUN: Well, I would hope we wouldn't go beyond the hundred -- well, the numbers keep changing, don't they; 140, we were told now, I guess yesterday, 175,000 troops. I would hope we wouldn't go beyond that.
You should know, I opposed this war. I thought that the Congress missed -- abdicated its Article 1, Section 3 -- Section 8 authority under the Constitution by giving a president who had not gotten the popular vote of the American people unilateral authority to go in with a preemptive war in Iraq. I didn't think it had anything to do with the war on terrorism. I've called it a misadventure.
So we shouldn't be there, in my opinion. But having been -- now that we're there, we've got young men and women in the field. We cannot abandon them. We have to give them the support they need to get the job finished. Americans do not cut and run.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Let's say the job takes five years. Are you prepared to endorse the idea of having 170,000 American troops in Iraq for the next five years?
BRAUN: As painful as it is, we've got to do what we've got to do.
Back in March, in California, I raised the question. This was before he had -- the president had decided to go into Iraq. I raised the question, how much is this going to cost? Tell us the truth, Mr. President. What is this going to cost? And, of course, no numbers, no dollars, were forthcoming at that point. Well, now those chickens are beginning to come home to roost. We have a tentative figure now. It could be even more.
And, frankly, given the skyrocketing deficits that we have from the tax cuts to the top 1 percent, the wealthiest Americans, how we're going to pay for it, who knows. That the American people have to pay for it by themselves is shameful. We should have engaged the support of allies, old Europe, remember them, traditional allies, and the international community, before going hell-bent for leather. These guys won't ask for directions. If they had, they wouldn't be there.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Madam Ambassador, let me play you a piece of videotape from the president's speech.
BRAUN: Oh.
BEGALA: He spoke last night from the White House, didn't land on any aircraft carriers, didn't have any swagger, didn't even have a G.I. Joe costume on. And it was a bit shambling, I thought, and stumbling. Here's what he had to say. Take a look at a brief excerpt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will soon submit to request a request for $87 billion. The request will cover ongoing military and intelligence operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, which we expect will cost $66 billion over the next year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Set aside the sort of hostage-tape style of reading off the teleprompter with the panicked look on his face and focus on $87 billion. If you were still in the Senate, would you vote $87 billion more for this effort?
BRAUN: I would vote whatever amount was necessary to make certain that our men and women in the field were not out there as sitting ducks, with no cover, without the support they need.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: I've got to tell you, I spoke -- I spoke with a parent of a young man who's in Iraq now.
And she was telling me that they're having -- parents, families are sending basic supplies, things like toilet paper, to these kids out there in the desert. It is an outrage. Talk about supporting the troops and not giving them even the basics, having them sit out there by themselves. Would that we had a real coalition that had real troops from other countries in there with us to do this job.
These guys, they didn't have a plan. They didn't have an exit strategy. It was all talking to each other. They didn't listen to anybody. They didn't listen to the international community. They didn't even listen to our military. And they went in there, put young men and women in harm's way in a situation -- even George Orwell couldn't have made this up.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BRAUN: OK? So...
BEGALA: Let me press you on this point, though. The first President Bush, when he fought in Iraq, had 130,000 Arab troops in our coalition. This current president has maybe 2,000, a very token force. What would you do, particularly in the Arab world, to bring our former allies back to our side and engage them in peacekeeping in Iraq?
BRAUN: Well, since -- again, back to mistakes made. We had the world's goodwill after 9/11. Everybody was on our side.
And this team has frittered away that good will between thumbing their nose at old -- at old Europe on the one hand, between telling the rest of the Arabic world, the Muslim world, that, we don't want you around, and having people held hostage. The civil liberties violations against people of -- Muslims and people of Arab descent in this country is nothing short of shameful. And so, with all of that, we've sent -- this crowd has just blown it.
And I've called -- I've been very clear in saying that this is a failed presidency. I have no qualms about making the point. Our economy, stock market notwithstanding, the jobless loss -- the job loss has been just like a hemorrhage. People...
CARLSON: Senator, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You just reminded me that you're running for president to replace this president.
BRAUN: That is exactly right.
CARLSON: I want to read what one of your former consultants, a man named Gerald Austin, who worked for you in 1992, said. And I'm quoting now.
BRAUN: Briefly.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Still, he's a Democratic consultant who you paid -- quote -- "There's no reason at all to take her seriously." And he goes on to say: "There are two Carols. One is very bright, articulate, up on the issues and can show genuine brilliance. The second is an actress who wants to do something because there's an ulterior motive. The motive is, she wants attention."
BRAUN: Are you writing -- is this -- oh.
CARLSON: It's right on the screen behind you. Considering that you lost your incumbency in 1988 to a very weak candidate, why should we take your candidacy seriously?
BRAUN: Well, for one, I'm uniquely qualified. I have more qualifications than any of the other candidates, including the guy whose job we're all trying to take, the guy in the White House. I'm a former ambassador.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: United States senator who served a whole term. I have life experience and bring a perspective to policy-making that none of the other candidates do, a practical approach to getting things done. I tell people what I believe in. I tell them what I want to do. And then I follow through and I do it. And I hold myself accountable for my service.
The fact of the matter is that I was outspent, as you know, 3-1 in that race. I had a tough time of keeping up in that regard, and I lost narrowly. Narrowly only counts in horseshoes. But I'll tell you, it might have been part of a plan, because I went off and was ambassador to paradise for two years.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... Supreme Court justices that could actually over that for you, though, did he?
(CROSSTALK)
BRAUN: No. No.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Don't you agree that Democrats need professional to get over the -- well, that's another -- we'll address that.
We're coming right back.
BRAUN: You know what? No, Tucker, no, let me say this. I wasn't here...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm sorry to cut you off. BRAUN: OK. All right.
CARLSON: I'm being told we have to go to a commercial. And we will, in a moment, let members of our audience fire back at Madam President-to-be Carol Moseley Braun.
But first, our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your voting devices. Tell us if you think a woman will be elected president of the U.S. in your lifetime. Press one if, yes, you will live to see the day that a woman makes it to the Oval Office. Press two for, no, it's going to be a while.
We'll have the results right after we return in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Before the break, we asked members of our audience if they believe a woman will be elected president in our lifetime. And they responded -- let's see -- yes, say 45 percent of Republicans; 95 percent of Democrats agree on the flip side. And, clearly, they're talking about Carol Moseley Braun or Hillary Clinton.
BEGALA: The majority of Republicans think they will never see a woman as president, even though Mrs. Dole ran last time against George W. Bush. Did a pretty good job.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, we will take the men-only sign off the White House door eventually.
CARLSON: I haven't seen that. It must be on the back.
Yes, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe your experience as a U.S. foreign ambassador gives you enough foreign policy experience to rival Democratic challengers such as Kerry and Clark and to present a serious challenge to President Bush?
BRAUN: As to the latter, absolutely. It's more foreign policy experience than our president had when he became president.
But as far as Wesley Clark, who, of course, is a general, that's military experience. That's not the same thing as diplomatic experience. And Senator Kerry, of course, served honorably in Vietnam. Again, that's not diplomatic experience. And I just think that, when you add up my years in the state legislature and county executive office, as an assistant United States attorney, as a girl who grew up on the south side of Chicago and lived the American dream, I think, all told, yes, I have the qualifications, uniquely qualified to do this job.
BEGALA: We have time for one more brief question.
Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Joanne (ph) from Forest Lake, Minnesota.
And if, for some reason, you're unable to win the presidential, would you consider -- and I underline consider -- the possibility of running as vice president?
BRAUN: My supporters tell me those words should never pass my lips.
CARLSON: But we're on CROSSFIRE.
BRAUN: So I'm just going to keep focusing in on winning the nomination. And I have every expectation that we will. We've got the Seabiscuit campaign of the season. We're just kind of working hard to get out there and do it the old-fashioned way. But I think we're going to win.
BEGALA: There you go, "Seabiscuit," the movie of the year.
Carol Moseley Braun, ambassador and former U.S. senator, presidential candidate, thank you very much for spending some time with us.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: Thank you very much.
CARLSON: Thank you.
BRAUN: Thank you.
BEGALA: Next: Now that President Bush wants taxpayers to pony up a mere $87 billion to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, one of our viewers has a modest request for our president. We will let him share that with the president. And, you know, he watches every day.
"Fireback" comes up next.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Fireback."
And, by the way, those other presidential candidates who want to answer Carol Moseley Braun's charges today that she's the most qualified and that she's got things they don't have, they want to come on, they got the guts... CARLSON: They're welcome.
BEGALA: Bring them on.
Our first e-mail is from Joanne Miller of Tacoma, Washington, who said: "During last week's debate, Carol Moseley Braun was the calmest, most direct and very intelligent on all the issues she discussed. I think it's time a woman took control. After all, we couldn't do any worse."
That's kind of a low bar, but she was quite good in the debate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: She's got the least to lose. No, she's very composed.
BEGALA: I think she's the most telegenic of any of the Democrats running.
CARLSON: I don't know. There's Kucinich.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Don Donofrio of Clifton Park, New York writes: "If American taxpayers are going to pay for rebuilding Iraq, then I want gas for 50 cents a gallon for the next two years as a thank-you from the Iraqi people for our efforts."
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Waiting around for the Iraqi people to show gratitude? I think it's going to be a long wait.
BEGALA: Oh, waiting around for George Bush's friends in big oil to cut us a break on anything. Hell will freeze over first. Believe me.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's so insane.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Fifty cents a gallon.
Yes, ma'am, what's your question or comment?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Carey (ph) from Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
And I was wondering, was the president's speech enough last night to defuse the potential problems he is going to face in reelection if the situation in Iraq doesn't improve?
CARLSON: No, of course not. The president really did stake his presidency on the war in Iraq. It was a really bold move. He'll be judged on it, and he should be. But it was -- I thought, politically, it made a lot of sense. He laid down exactly much money he wants. And I dare Democrats in Congress to sort of turn him down. It will be interesting to see what happens.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It was a smart move to give the speech, but the speech itself was gutless, because the president wouldn't take responsibility for his many mistakes in Iraq.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Everybody makes mistakes, even presidents. He should take responsibility for this debacle that he's gotten us into.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 8, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the presidential race with a woman's touch.
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have every expectation of winning this election and taking the men-only sign off the White House door.
ANNOUNCER: And a Democratic voice.
BRAUN: In the trickle-down economics...
ANNOUNCER: Is the country ready for Madam President Moseley Braun?
BRAUN: With you, we can build the bridges and make this election happen. And I can beat George Bush -- Today ON CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
One of the more surprising stars of the recent Democratic debate was a so-called second-tier candidate who stole the show from the big boys, in fact, the only candidate who is not one of the boys. And today, as every presidential candidate stood, former Senator and Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun steps into the CROSSFIRE.
Before we get to her, we'll begin, as we always do, with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
President Bush spoke to the nation last night about the debacle in Iraq. He did not accept personal presidential responsibility for his mistakes. Indeed, he didn't admit to making any mistakes at all, not even one. In contrast, after the Bay of Pigs fiasco in Cuba in 1961, President John F. Kennedy took full responsibility, even though he had inherited that invasion plan from President Eisenhower. JFK moved quickly. He fired the head of the CIA, as well as the two deputy directors who drew up the plan. And he ordered an investigation of what went wrong. The investigation cited ignorance, arrogance and incompetence on the part of the war planners. Sound familiar?
Well, obviously, George W. Bush is no JFK. A real war hero, President Kennedy never played dress-up to fly on to aircraft carriers.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Real presidents and great presidents give the glory of victory to the troops and take the responsibility for disasters for themselves. Mr. Bush should do so.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: That is such a profound mischaracterization of the Bay of Pigs and its aftermath, actually.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, it's true. President Kennedy himself, not the head of the CIA, not anybody else in his administration, withdrew air cover at the precise moment it was needed. That wasn't Eisenhower's fault and it wasn't Lyndon Johnson's fault.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He took responsibility, is the point. We can debate the Bay of Pigs, but we can't debate whether Bush should take responsibility for his mistakes, because he should, but he won't.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, President Bush uttered at least one incontestable line in his speech to the nation last night -- quote -- "We have learned that terrorist attacks are not caused by the use of strength. They're invited by the perception of weakness" -- end quote.
Well, if there's a single lesson of the Clinton years, it is just that. Consider the evidence. In 1993, six are killed when terrorists bomb the World Trade Center. Clinton does virtually nothing. Same year, 18 Americans are murdered in Somalia. Clinton pulls out American troops in the country. In 1996, terrorists blow up the Khobar Towers, killing 19 action, more inaction from the Clinton administration. In 1988, 250 people killed, more than 5,000 injured when two American embassies are blown up in Africa. Clinton refuses to initiate an all-out war on terrorism.
The administration even turns down an opportunity to take Osama bin Laden into custody, citing a conflict with what it calls international law. Two years later, 17 sailors are murdered by terrorists aboard the USS Cole. Same limp response from the Clinton White House. A year later, 9/11. You may not agree with what this president has done in Iraq, but at least he's taking terrorism seriously. And that is an improvement.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Tucker, I think...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I can tell that you're a Bush man. I can tell you're a Bush man, because I think you may even have eclipsed W. for falsehoods per second. That was a world speed record.
Bill Clinton had a plan to take on terrorism. He did take on terrorism. Every one of those instances was false. And it was George W. Bush who was handed a plan by Bill Clinton and refused to act on it to go get Osama bin Laden in 2001.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Paul, you know in your heart that the Clinton administration did not take terrorism seriously.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I don't. That is a calumny against people who gave their lives to fight terrorism in this country and prevented a whole lot of attacks.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That is a calumny.
Well, according to the Associated Press, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told reporters today that criticism of President Bush's debacle in the desert makes fighting the war on terrorism more difficult.
Now, Secretary Strangelove did not opine as to whether alienating the free world, misleading the American people, invading an Arab country that posed no threat to America and allowing it to fill up with terrorists as it falls into near chaos made fighting the war on terrorism any more difficult either. Nor did he comment on whether having a megalomaniacal, Machiavellian incompetent as secretary of defense made fighting the war of terror more difficult. He just said: Shut up America. Give us your money. Send us your sons and daughters. And shut the heck up, or the terrorists win.
Shame on Donald Rumsfeld.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm not going to use the word calumny, mostly because I'm not certain what it means. But I will say, it's not nice to call people names.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, truly.
I think there's a serious argument to be made that the Bush administration hasn't contained terror in Iraq since the victory. But I don't think you've addressed it in that "Political Alert." And I don't think you've said what we should have done about the real threat of Saddam Hussein. No Democrat has.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: What we shouldn't do is have an administration that attacks democracy in America at every turn. In order to save our freedom, we have to end our freedom, we have to curtail our freedom.
CARLSON: That's insane!
BEGALA: That's the Bush plan.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It's the Ashcroft plan. It's the Rumsfeld plan. It's the Bush plan. This is what they stand for.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Do you know what that is? Do you know what that is? That's literally a piece of direct mail. "We have to end democracy." That's so overstated.
BEGALA: This is their view. He goes and gives an interview to reporters and says you can't attack or disagree with our country's policies or it helps the terrorists. Nonsense.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: As future historians may point out, the political career of John Edwards lasted fewer than six years. Elected to the Senate in 1998 after a lucrative career as a trial lawyer specializing in Jacuzzi cases, Edwards probably could have spent another couple of decades on Capitol Hill, giving regular press conferences, invoking cloture from time to time, brushing up on his senatorial image.
But then hubris intervened. Every senator famously thinks he can be president. Edwards really thought it, so he ran. Today, Edwards announced that he will not stand for reelection in North Carolina. Instead, he will devote all of his considerable energies to securing the Democratic nomination. The only problem? Edwards is not likely to get the nomination. And he's even less likely -- far less likely -- to become the president of the United States. His relatively safe Senate seat in North Carolina, meanwhile, will probably go to a Republican. And at result, the GOP strengthens its Senate majority, Edwards goes back to suing people for a living. If it weren't so amusing, it might be a shame.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This is one of my favorite kind of stereotypes of the elite right that you play into. And that is that somehow representing people against corporations who make products that kill their children is dishonorable.
Which is more honorable, to sue a company that makes a product that kills children or to sell oil field equipment to Saddam Hussein, which is what Dick Cheney did when George Bush picked him to be on the ticket? I'll take the trial lawyers every day of the week.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: I would love to take that seriously, but it makes so little sense, I can't.
BEGALA: Which is more honorable? It's a simple choice, Tucker.
CARLSON: All I can say is, suing people actually makes America a much less happy, friendly place.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... equipment to Saddam Hussein?
CARLSON: I don't know what you're talking about.
BEGALA: Dick Cheney sold oil field equipment to Saddam Hussein.
CARLSON: Next: a presidential candidate who wants national health insurance, higher pay for women and campaigns against she calls trickle-down economics. Is that got a formula for surging to the Democratic nomination? Carol Moseley Braun steps into the CROSSFIRE next.
We'll be right back.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
She has served as a United States senator from Illinois and, in her words, United States ambassador to paradise. That would be New Zealand, Samoa, the Cook Islands and, yes, Antarctica. Now she's a Democratic candidate for president, a job heretofore reserved for white males.
Please welcome Carol Moseley Braun to the CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Madam Ambassador, thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAUN: Hello, Tucker. How are you? Nice to see you.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: Thank you.
CARLSON: Senator, Ambassador, thank you for joining us.
BRAUN: Delighted to be with you.
CARLSON: You said in the Democratic debate in New Mexico -- I'm paraphrasing this -- pretty much, you said, Americans don't cut and run, referring to Iraq. You clearly believe that we need to finish the job we started.
Considering that we're probably not going to get any troops from Europe, probably not going to get many troops from Turkey or India, how many American troops do you think we're going to need in Iraq and for how long, specifically, over the next two years?
BRAUN: Well, I would hope we wouldn't go beyond the hundred -- well, the numbers keep changing, don't they; 140, we were told now, I guess yesterday, 175,000 troops. I would hope we wouldn't go beyond that.
You should know, I opposed this war. I thought that the Congress missed -- abdicated its Article 1, Section 3 -- Section 8 authority under the Constitution by giving a president who had not gotten the popular vote of the American people unilateral authority to go in with a preemptive war in Iraq. I didn't think it had anything to do with the war on terrorism. I've called it a misadventure.
So we shouldn't be there, in my opinion. But having been -- now that we're there, we've got young men and women in the field. We cannot abandon them. We have to give them the support they need to get the job finished. Americans do not cut and run.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Let's say the job takes five years. Are you prepared to endorse the idea of having 170,000 American troops in Iraq for the next five years?
BRAUN: As painful as it is, we've got to do what we've got to do.
Back in March, in California, I raised the question. This was before he had -- the president had decided to go into Iraq. I raised the question, how much is this going to cost? Tell us the truth, Mr. President. What is this going to cost? And, of course, no numbers, no dollars, were forthcoming at that point. Well, now those chickens are beginning to come home to roost. We have a tentative figure now. It could be even more.
And, frankly, given the skyrocketing deficits that we have from the tax cuts to the top 1 percent, the wealthiest Americans, how we're going to pay for it, who knows. That the American people have to pay for it by themselves is shameful. We should have engaged the support of allies, old Europe, remember them, traditional allies, and the international community, before going hell-bent for leather. These guys won't ask for directions. If they had, they wouldn't be there.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Madam Ambassador, let me play you a piece of videotape from the president's speech.
BRAUN: Oh.
BEGALA: He spoke last night from the White House, didn't land on any aircraft carriers, didn't have any swagger, didn't even have a G.I. Joe costume on. And it was a bit shambling, I thought, and stumbling. Here's what he had to say. Take a look at a brief excerpt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will soon submit to request a request for $87 billion. The request will cover ongoing military and intelligence operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, which we expect will cost $66 billion over the next year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Set aside the sort of hostage-tape style of reading off the teleprompter with the panicked look on his face and focus on $87 billion. If you were still in the Senate, would you vote $87 billion more for this effort?
BRAUN: I would vote whatever amount was necessary to make certain that our men and women in the field were not out there as sitting ducks, with no cover, without the support they need.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: I've got to tell you, I spoke -- I spoke with a parent of a young man who's in Iraq now.
And she was telling me that they're having -- parents, families are sending basic supplies, things like toilet paper, to these kids out there in the desert. It is an outrage. Talk about supporting the troops and not giving them even the basics, having them sit out there by themselves. Would that we had a real coalition that had real troops from other countries in there with us to do this job.
These guys, they didn't have a plan. They didn't have an exit strategy. It was all talking to each other. They didn't listen to anybody. They didn't listen to the international community. They didn't even listen to our military. And they went in there, put young men and women in harm's way in a situation -- even George Orwell couldn't have made this up.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BRAUN: OK? So...
BEGALA: Let me press you on this point, though. The first President Bush, when he fought in Iraq, had 130,000 Arab troops in our coalition. This current president has maybe 2,000, a very token force. What would you do, particularly in the Arab world, to bring our former allies back to our side and engage them in peacekeeping in Iraq?
BRAUN: Well, since -- again, back to mistakes made. We had the world's goodwill after 9/11. Everybody was on our side.
And this team has frittered away that good will between thumbing their nose at old -- at old Europe on the one hand, between telling the rest of the Arabic world, the Muslim world, that, we don't want you around, and having people held hostage. The civil liberties violations against people of -- Muslims and people of Arab descent in this country is nothing short of shameful. And so, with all of that, we've sent -- this crowd has just blown it.
And I've called -- I've been very clear in saying that this is a failed presidency. I have no qualms about making the point. Our economy, stock market notwithstanding, the jobless loss -- the job loss has been just like a hemorrhage. People...
CARLSON: Senator, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You just reminded me that you're running for president to replace this president.
BRAUN: That is exactly right.
CARLSON: I want to read what one of your former consultants, a man named Gerald Austin, who worked for you in 1992, said. And I'm quoting now.
BRAUN: Briefly.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Still, he's a Democratic consultant who you paid -- quote -- "There's no reason at all to take her seriously." And he goes on to say: "There are two Carols. One is very bright, articulate, up on the issues and can show genuine brilliance. The second is an actress who wants to do something because there's an ulterior motive. The motive is, she wants attention."
BRAUN: Are you writing -- is this -- oh.
CARLSON: It's right on the screen behind you. Considering that you lost your incumbency in 1988 to a very weak candidate, why should we take your candidacy seriously?
BRAUN: Well, for one, I'm uniquely qualified. I have more qualifications than any of the other candidates, including the guy whose job we're all trying to take, the guy in the White House. I'm a former ambassador.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: United States senator who served a whole term. I have life experience and bring a perspective to policy-making that none of the other candidates do, a practical approach to getting things done. I tell people what I believe in. I tell them what I want to do. And then I follow through and I do it. And I hold myself accountable for my service.
The fact of the matter is that I was outspent, as you know, 3-1 in that race. I had a tough time of keeping up in that regard, and I lost narrowly. Narrowly only counts in horseshoes. But I'll tell you, it might have been part of a plan, because I went off and was ambassador to paradise for two years.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... Supreme Court justices that could actually over that for you, though, did he?
(CROSSTALK)
BRAUN: No. No.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Don't you agree that Democrats need professional to get over the -- well, that's another -- we'll address that.
We're coming right back.
BRAUN: You know what? No, Tucker, no, let me say this. I wasn't here...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm sorry to cut you off. BRAUN: OK. All right.
CARLSON: I'm being told we have to go to a commercial. And we will, in a moment, let members of our audience fire back at Madam President-to-be Carol Moseley Braun.
But first, our "Ask the Audience" question. Take out your voting devices. Tell us if you think a woman will be elected president of the U.S. in your lifetime. Press one if, yes, you will live to see the day that a woman makes it to the Oval Office. Press two for, no, it's going to be a while.
We'll have the results right after we return in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Before the break, we asked members of our audience if they believe a woman will be elected president in our lifetime. And they responded -- let's see -- yes, say 45 percent of Republicans; 95 percent of Democrats agree on the flip side. And, clearly, they're talking about Carol Moseley Braun or Hillary Clinton.
BEGALA: The majority of Republicans think they will never see a woman as president, even though Mrs. Dole ran last time against George W. Bush. Did a pretty good job.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, we will take the men-only sign off the White House door eventually.
CARLSON: I haven't seen that. It must be on the back.
Yes, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe your experience as a U.S. foreign ambassador gives you enough foreign policy experience to rival Democratic challengers such as Kerry and Clark and to present a serious challenge to President Bush?
BRAUN: As to the latter, absolutely. It's more foreign policy experience than our president had when he became president.
But as far as Wesley Clark, who, of course, is a general, that's military experience. That's not the same thing as diplomatic experience. And Senator Kerry, of course, served honorably in Vietnam. Again, that's not diplomatic experience. And I just think that, when you add up my years in the state legislature and county executive office, as an assistant United States attorney, as a girl who grew up on the south side of Chicago and lived the American dream, I think, all told, yes, I have the qualifications, uniquely qualified to do this job.
BEGALA: We have time for one more brief question.
Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Joanne (ph) from Forest Lake, Minnesota.
And if, for some reason, you're unable to win the presidential, would you consider -- and I underline consider -- the possibility of running as vice president?
BRAUN: My supporters tell me those words should never pass my lips.
CARLSON: But we're on CROSSFIRE.
BRAUN: So I'm just going to keep focusing in on winning the nomination. And I have every expectation that we will. We've got the Seabiscuit campaign of the season. We're just kind of working hard to get out there and do it the old-fashioned way. But I think we're going to win.
BEGALA: There you go, "Seabiscuit," the movie of the year.
Carol Moseley Braun, ambassador and former U.S. senator, presidential candidate, thank you very much for spending some time with us.
(APPLAUSE)
BRAUN: Thank you very much.
CARLSON: Thank you.
BRAUN: Thank you.
BEGALA: Next: Now that President Bush wants taxpayers to pony up a mere $87 billion to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, one of our viewers has a modest request for our president. We will let him share that with the president. And, you know, he watches every day.
"Fireback" comes up next.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Fireback."
And, by the way, those other presidential candidates who want to answer Carol Moseley Braun's charges today that she's the most qualified and that she's got things they don't have, they want to come on, they got the guts... CARLSON: They're welcome.
BEGALA: Bring them on.
Our first e-mail is from Joanne Miller of Tacoma, Washington, who said: "During last week's debate, Carol Moseley Braun was the calmest, most direct and very intelligent on all the issues she discussed. I think it's time a woman took control. After all, we couldn't do any worse."
That's kind of a low bar, but she was quite good in the debate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: She's got the least to lose. No, she's very composed.
BEGALA: I think she's the most telegenic of any of the Democrats running.
CARLSON: I don't know. There's Kucinich.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Don Donofrio of Clifton Park, New York writes: "If American taxpayers are going to pay for rebuilding Iraq, then I want gas for 50 cents a gallon for the next two years as a thank-you from the Iraqi people for our efforts."
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Waiting around for the Iraqi people to show gratitude? I think it's going to be a long wait.
BEGALA: Oh, waiting around for George Bush's friends in big oil to cut us a break on anything. Hell will freeze over first. Believe me.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's so insane.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Fifty cents a gallon.
Yes, ma'am, what's your question or comment?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Carey (ph) from Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
And I was wondering, was the president's speech enough last night to defuse the potential problems he is going to face in reelection if the situation in Iraq doesn't improve?
CARLSON: No, of course not. The president really did stake his presidency on the war in Iraq. It was a really bold move. He'll be judged on it, and he should be. But it was -- I thought, politically, it made a lot of sense. He laid down exactly much money he wants. And I dare Democrats in Congress to sort of turn him down. It will be interesting to see what happens.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It was a smart move to give the speech, but the speech itself was gutless, because the president wouldn't take responsibility for his many mistakes in Iraq.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Everybody makes mistakes, even presidents. He should take responsibility for this debacle that he's gotten us into.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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