Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
Do Democrats Present Serious Challenge to Bush?
Aired September 12, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Is the Democratic presidential raise producing a serious challenger for George W. Bush? And political reality meets political fantasy. Is George Clooney's "K Street" a true reflection of life in Washington? -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Welcome to our lair.
Today, we look at the truth and the fiction inside a new television series about Washington and, for good measure, inside the Democratic presidential race, where truth is harder to find. But, first, a fact over which there is no dispute.
Here comes the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The saga continues. Howard Dean, M.D., continues to dig himself deeper and deeper and deeper as he attempts to explain where exactly he stands on Israel. Last week, you'll remember, Dean told a crowd that -- quote -- "It's not our place to take sides in the Middle East," as if it's immoral to favor a liberal, if flawed, democracy over suicide bombers. Huh?
Soon, Dr. Dean tried again. In an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Dean said -- and we are not making this up -- quote -- "Members of Hamas are soldiers in the war in the Middle East." So members of Hamas are soldiers. That's the headline. This was news to the State Department, which classified members of Hamas as terrorists. It might also come as a surprise to the families of the many Israeli children murdered on city buses by those soldiers of Hamas. Maybe Dr. Dean will explain further what he means. We cannot wait to hear it. PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Reminiscent -- of course, Hamas are not soldiers. They are terrorists. You are right. You're right to raise that point.
CARLSON: They're not? Should we take sides, do you think?
BEGALA: Of course we should. You're right to raise that point .
But what's interesting is, these are similar mistakes to those that our current president, then a governor, himself made in the last campaign. Democrats tried to pounce on Bush for his rare and raw ignorance of all things international. And it didn't do any good. I suspect your attacks on Dean won't do any good either.
CARLSON: No, actually -- no, no, but Bush didn't, I don't think, know a huge amount about the rest of the world, but he has always had very clear views: This is right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You may not agree with them.
BEGALA: Foreign policy means
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... Oklahoma for George W. Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, but, truly, I don't think Bush would ever say anything like that.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, critics say that Saudi Arabia has been slow to take on al Qaeda terrorists. But the Saudis know a real enemy when they see one, Barbie dolls. The Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, the Saudi version of Ken Starr's sex police, says -- quote -- "Jewish Barbie dolls, with their revealing clothes and shameful postures, are a symbol of decadence to the perverted West."
Although the leader of the perverted West, President Bush, plainly loves the Saudi dictatorship. He is seen here holding hands in a manly, macho, not at all gay way with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. Perhaps Mr. Bush goes easy on his Saudi buddies because he's too busy attacking America's real enemies, France, Germany, Canada and soon, perhaps, Barbie herself.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Barbie? Barbie?
CARLSON: I have to say, they really are a creepy group. And they eat with their hands, incidentally.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Barbie dolls?
CARLSON: No, the Saudis.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And there is a huge debate.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, and so do I. But I'm still for Barbies.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: But there is a huge debate in the administration. There are actually a lot of people against the Saudi government in this administration. And I think it's probably -- to say they are all hand-holders with them.
BEGALA: They are hand-holders.
CARLSON: Well, they're close, not that there's anything wrong with that.
You often here liberals say that the right is obsessed with Bill Clinton. And it is true that conservatives don't generally care for him. But obsessed? No one is more obsessed with Bill Clinton than Bill Clinton.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Though he's no longer, strictly speaking, employed, Clinton refuses to stop calling attention to himself. He's embarked this weekend on the "look at me" tour. He's off to Iowa and California to steal the political limelight from real Democratic presidential candidates. It's very sad.
Meanwhile, fund-raising for the Clinton Presidential Library and ego-plex continues apace with the newly released "Clinton Presidential Center Cookbook." And we're not making this up. We never do. The $35 tome features 250 recipes, including Barbra Streisand's southern lemon icebox pie. We dare you to eat that.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Mary Steenburgen's garlic cheese grits, Hillary Clinton's chocolate chip cookies. At least they have a sense of humor. And even pork and sausage jambalaya by our own James Carville.
BEGALA: He makes great jambalaya. CARLSON: I know he does. I'm for it.
BEGALA: By the way, you always attack Barbra Streisand. The last time I was out at her place, I saw the lovely macrame throw pillow you made for her. So
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're in the same aromatherapy class. I'm sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, a new poll commissioned by the Draft Al Gore Committee, but conducted by independent pollster John Zogby, shows that the current occupant of the White House is in a dead heat with the man who got more votes than him in 2000.
Well, perhaps losing 2.5 million jobs, misleading America into an unnecessary invasion and a disastrous occupation, while squandering a $1 trillion projected surplus can maybe hurt a guy politically. Gallup Poll has more bad news for Mr. Bush. His approval rating has dropped nearly 20 points in five months. Attempting to spin the bad news, White House aides note, Mr. Bush is still popular with such key Republican constituencies as Confederate flag-wavers, black helicopter paranoids, gay bashers, television evangelists, and, of course, oil company executives.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So he's got that base.
CARLSON: You kind of buried the headline there. And the headline, Paul, is that there is a Draft Al Gore Committee.
BEGALA: There is.
CARLSON: Just as there is a Draft Wesley Clark Committee, just as there is a draft-Hillary movement. The point is, people look at this field of nine candidates and say, they are lame. And not one of them can beat President Bush. It's sad.
(BELL RINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, you wait and see. They're going to do just fine.
Well, in a minute, we will take a look at the state of the Democratic presidential race, see if they are as lame as my friend Tucker thinks so.
Later still -- and you'll be glad you stayed for this -- an HBO program shines a light on the seamy underbelly of politics. And they're not talking about talk shows. Apparently, some politicians would rather you stay in the dark.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
New polls show President Bush's approval ratings have dropped so fast that even Gray Davis is starting to feel sorry for him. After a high of 90 percent, the president now is about as popular in some quarters as Trent Lott at Kwanzaa party.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Of course, if they go any lower, rumor has it Dick Cheney may drop Mr. Bush from the ticket.
Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate the president's prospects and the Democrats' fits and starts, Republican consultant Stuart Stevens, a media adviser to our president, and Democrat strategist Peter Fenn.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Peter, let me just point out that Trent Lott celebrates Kwanzaa now. So that's not exactly completely...
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Exactly. That's not completely fair.
"The Washington Post" pointed out in a very fair page-one story this morning, though, that one of the reasons Howard Dean has gotten so much traction in his criticism of the president on Iraq, is, he doesn't have a record to defend, unlike John Kerry and Dick Gephardt, both of whom had the opportunity to vote for a resolution that would have called for the U.N. to sanction anything the U.S. did. Both of them didn't vote for it and instead voted essentially to go to war.
Given that, shouldn't they just be quiet about the Iraq war, since it's already over, and maybe move on to like a new idea or two?
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You are suggesting that they zip it? Is that what you're suggesting?
CARLSON: No. No. I'm just saying the hypocrisy level is too high, isn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: No. Listen, everybody has to vote in this Congress. And, as you point out, Howard Dean doesn't. But everybody has got to vote. And they often vote yes, but; yes, and; no, but; no, and.
Look, their views on this war were put forth front and center. They are totally entitled to give their views right now. And I think, right now, what we are seeing is, how do you spell quagmire? And if this president, who said he had an exit strategy and doesn't, who said he had a plan for how to get these troops out and doesn't, doesn't come up with something by next spring, his political life is going to be very, very short.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Stuart, let me ask you to pick up on that.
In the polls this week -- I just made reference to them -- your client, our president, is at his lowest point since 9/11 of 2001. Is it because of the jobless recovery or the endless quagmire in Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not a false choice.
STUART STEVENS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: I'm sure it's because of you on CROSSFIRE.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVENS: Look, I think that, right now, obviously, it's a tough time in Iraq.
But I think that the qualities that elected Bush, of restoring honor and dignity to the White House, a sense of clear leadership, a person who doesn't equivocate, a person who Americans can be proud of, I think those qualities are going to stand him very well through the next year.
It's ridiculous now to call these elections. I don't think any president is ahead like this. A guy named Bill Clinton, who did pretty well in '96, wasn't having such a great '94 or '95. I think that the choice is going to show up. And I think the Democratic Party is going to end up with a very strong candidate. I think the process demands it. I can't you who it's going to be, remotely.
But I think there's going to be some very clear choices about talking about the past and talking about the future. And I think sort of bold, steady leadership and a president the people can be proud of is going to be pretty compelling.
FENN: Stu is absolutely right. There are going to be very clear choices here.
I think the problem is that the choices are going to be, for the Republicans, a leader -- who you call a leader -- who is three million jobs and counting.
STEVENS: I call him the president.
FENN: Well, yes. There may be people who don't want to call him president after this.
But where Iraq is in a shambles, where his -- the deficits are going up over $600 billion, where he makes promises about the environment that he doesn't keep, this is not a good sign.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The real choice, I think you will agree...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on, the real choice is a choice that needs to be made by the Democratic primary voters. And that's, who are you going to nominate to be not just your candidate, but the leader of your party? And Howard Dean looks like the man.
Here's my question. Nobody else who is running has really criticized him. Ed Koch, former mayor of New York, not in politics, said this about Howard Dean the other day -- quote -- "McGovern II, the worst." A lot of Democrats feel that way. Why don't more Democrats pipe up and just say, this guy is a loser?
FENN: Listen, first of all, I think we have got a lot of good candidates.
(APPLAUSE)
FENN: I think we have got a lot of candidates that can beat George W. Bush. Folks are beginning to mix it up.
Look, what you have seen right now with Howard Dean is somebody who has come to the fore because of his early criticism of the Iraq war and because of his galvanizing of the liberal element of the Democratic Party. This isn't December. This is September. And there's a lot that's going to happen. Lieberman is out there criticizing him today. Gephardt blasted him, in fact blasted him pretty hard. You are going to see these guys mix it up. This is going to be a real tough primary season.
And I think the cream will rise to the top, and then we'll see what happens come next spring.
STEVENS: Let me just say something about Iraq.
What American is doing in Iraq isn't a Republican or Democratic thing. Many of these Democratic presidential candidates supported it, as you know. It's something that America should be proud of. This is actually a great and noble endeavor that we are doing. We are freeing a people. We've found these mass graves.
(APPLAUSE)
STEVENS: This is a moment, it's not really...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what our president said. That's not what our president said when he led us into that war. He didn't say: Iraq is terrible to its people. Saddam Hussein is bad. We're going to get rid of him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He said, Saddam Hussein was a threat to us, to the homeland. He said there were unmanned vehicles that could attack by the air with chemical weapons. That was false.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He said they had a nuclear program. That was false. He misled us. Isn't that the problem politically?
(APPLAUSE)
STEVENS: This president talked about the human rights abuses, the fact this is the only person who has used weapons of mass destruction against his own people.
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: But let me ask you. Yes, or, no, would you rather Saddam Hussein be in power today or not?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I would rather those 300 Americans be alive today than not. Saddam Hussein was in a cage. He was in a cage.
STEVENS: Do you it's worth...
BEGALA: No, it was not worth those men's live, no , sir. And you go tell their families that he was a threat to us, because we know he wasn't now.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: Let me say this. No, let me say this. Let me say this.
I think that's absolutely outrageous. I think that each of those families knows that their loved ones died for a good and noble cause. And they are proud of those people.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They also died because our president misled us.
CARLSON: Paul has articulated that pretty well, that they died, as he just said, because the president misled us, essentially, Bush is responsible for their death, and it would better if Saddam were in power today. Do you think Democrats can run on that?
FENN: That's the dichotomy here. The key point is, he did not...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I said it was not worth the lie. So don't mischaracterize my
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: If you say, look, to the American people, this guy is an evil guy and we need to take him out, that's one thing.
But you -- you said -- he said -- the president said imminent threat. No imminent Threat. He said nuclear weapons. No nuclear weapons. He said chemical, biological weapons. We are finding them about as fast as we are finding Osama.
(APPLAUSE)
FENN: We have not found the reasons to go to the -- into that war.
But let's have that debate. That would have been fine. Let's have that debate. The key thing, I think, that we made our mistake -- and we are making it again -- is that we need the United Nations. We need other countries. If we are going beat terrorism, we ain't doing it alone. We're going to do it united, all together, going after terrorism.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: I have got to defend the Democratic presidential candidates.
I don't think that Lieberman, Kerry, Gephardt, who all voted go to war in Iraq are that naive. I think they knew what they were doing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They trusted the president. We'll never make that mistake again.
STEVENS: They are big boys. They make up their own mind. They're United States senators. They would like to be president.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... George Bush. That won't happen again.
STEVENS: And I think that they did the right thing then. They should stand up. They should be proud of it. This is a day that, 10 years from now, we are going to look back and we're going to be proud.
CARLSON: Gentlemen...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think you agree with Stuart Stevens, but, nevertheless, we're going to have to save that for another show.
Thank you very much, Peter Fenn. We appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thank you, guys.
CARLSON: After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer will update the headlines, including the latest from the Middle East and Iraq.
And we cannot let Stuart Stevens get away without telling us about the new television show he's helping to produce, "K Street." It intends to look at Washington's lobbyists and power brokers.
And that leads to our audience question this afternoon. Take out your voting devices and guess what politician is prominently featured in the first episode of "K Street." Press one if you think it's Vice President Dick Cheney. Press two if you think it's Senator Trent Lott doing a cameo. Press three if you think you will see Howard Dean when you tune in to "K Street."
Unfortunately, Al Sharpton not listed. That will be next week.
We will have the answer in just a moment.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Coming soon to a television near you, an experimental series on Washington's movers and shakers. It's called "K Street." It premieres Sunday on 10:35 Eastern on HBO, which is, we're proud to say, owned by AOL Time Warner, the same company that owns us here at CNN.
And it produced by, among others, George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh. And "K Street" features, again, among others, on-camera appearances by James Carville, Mary Matalin, and Mike Deaver.
By happy coincidence, "K Street"'s co-producer just happens to be our guest today, Republican consultant Stu Stevens.
We will start by letting him ask our "Ask the Audience" question. And that was, which politician is prominently featured in the very first episode? Is it Dick Cheney? Is it Trent Lott? Or is it Dr. Howard Dean, M.D., from the proud state of Vermont?
STEVENS: Not going to touch it. Tune in Sunday night on HBO, 10:30.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And there you go. Well, 51 percent think it's going to be Trent Lott.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We have the answer. We actually -- we've been getting in your waste paper baskets and we pulled out a confidential memo that found out that it was not, in fact, Trent Lott.
BEGALA: Really?
CARLSON: No.
BEGALA: Most people think it is.
Tune in and see. Tune in and see.
Stuart, in addition to your success as a Republican political professional, you wrote for "Northern Exposure," an Emmy Award-winning television show. You wrote for "I'll Fly Away," which I remember fondly. How is "K Street" different from those other shows you've worked on?
STEVENS: "K Street," I think it's legitimate to say, is unlike any show that's ever been done on television.
Steven Soderbergh calls it real-time fiction. Each week, the show will reinvent itself. There's no scripts in advance. There's really no scripts. It's putting people in situations and having them talk as if they would talk in these situations. On the show that's going to air Sunday night, we started talking about what should be in the show on Sunday. And it's going to be that way, like a weekly newsmagazine would be.
CARLSON: See, but here's the problem for people, real-life people you ask on the show. If you asked a real-life politician on or and he says something outrageous on your show -- and people get before cameras and they're likely to do that -- then he reaps real-life consequences from that, doesn't he? He can destroy his career on cable television.
STEVENS: Hey, you guys yell and scream at politicians all the time.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVENS: And they keep coming back. They are big boys and girls.
I think that people are going to be seen on the show, politicians, and other people, be it political figures in Washington or whomever, as they are, because the show is completely unfiltered. It's not a left show or right show. It has no point to make as far as a political spectrum. It's simply a look at this world and how this world works. And people are going to come across just as they are.
BEGALA: Well, one of the big causes for buzz in Washington is that George Clooney is one of the executive producers of it. Why have one of the biggest stars in Hollywood and not put him in your show? Or is this just one of these deals where he lends his name and then goes off to France or wherever those guys go?
STEVENS: I have absolutely been blown away by how hard George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh have worked on this. George is not only executive producing. He's also shooting one of the cameras and working like a dog, I got to say.
BEGALA: A high-class cameraman.
STEVENS: And he's actually very good at it.
BEGALA: In fact, many of our cameramen look exactly like George Clooney. I don't know if Howard can get a shot
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, but why do that? Even by the standards of union scale for cameramen, whatever the nay -- bit pay scale is, he seems like a pretty expensive cameraman. Why have him shoot it?
STEVENS: He's fascinated by the process. He's a very interesting guy. His father is a journalist. He grew up surrounded by journalism and press. And he's very interested in politics. He's very interested in Washington.
I think, for him, it just -- it seems to be incredibly energizing, and the same for Steven Soderbergh, to be immersed in this world, to be creating something that there's really no template for. It's very much a high-wire act, and they seem to be absolutely thriving on it.
BEGALA: You've already created some controversy.
Trent Lott, the Republican chairman of the Senate Rules Committee, has decreed, thou shalt not film in the Capitol, because "K Street" is a for-profit enterprise. By the way, so is CNN. They let us film in the Capitol. I don't understand the logic. Could this be because maybe Lott heard a rumor that he is treated poorly in the first episode? He's trying to punish you? Is that -- any truth to that rumor?
STEVENS: As someone from Mississippi, I would never allow that to happen.
(LAUGHTER) STEVENS: No, this is actually much ado about nothing. It's been a long-standing rule, which those of us who make commercials -- you remember, you can't film your clients in their offices or in the halls of Congress or the Senate. And that's -- no new rule was made here. It's just Trent reiterating the rule, which I think it makes sense, because if you let one person do it, then you let everybody do it.
And then you are in the business of saying, well, I like this show, so we'll let them, or I don't like these people, or I'm mad at this guy. So it makes sense. And, look, we're not interested in where we're going to shoot it. We're interested in who we're going to shoot. So we'll go anywhere.
CARLSON: Stuart Stevens, we're looking forward to see who you shoot next.
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: Thanks very much.
CARLSON: Best of luck on "K Street." No luck, I hope, though, in the Bush campaign. I know you have got two hats on this program, but thank you for wearing both of them so ably.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Next, we promise that we'll give you the real answer to our "Ask the Audience" question. No, we don't.
Then, in "Fireback, one of our viewers asks Tucker Carlson one of the same questions that was put to the presidential candidates in this week's debate. Find out, what is our friend Tucker's favorite song?
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
By now, I'll bet you are really wondering the answer to our audience question: Which politician will be featured? Well, you saw the producer of the program, Stuart Stevens, in our last segment refuse to answer. And so we are going to tell you what CNN's CROSSFIRE sources have learned, that it is not Dick Cheney, it is not Trent Lott. CNN's CROSSFIRE sources have told us that, in fact, it's going to be Howard Dean.
But we will have to tune in on Sunday night to see.
CARLSON: It makes sense. He's very telegenic.
BEGALA: Well, we'll have to see if that's true. CARLSON: I would like to see Dick Cheney on.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Dick Cheney is sort of a charismatic guy.
CARLSON: Oh, yes.
BEGALA: Maybe not.
First up, Flo Wolfert of Palm Coast, Florida, a registered Florida voter, writes: "If Wesley Clark runs for president, there is not a person in his or her right mind who would not vote for him."
What a great slogan. Vote for Wesley Clark or you are mentally ill.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I like that. Good luck.
BEGALA: All right, let's see.
Here. Our next one is from Dave Schleicher in Moraga, California. He writes: "Tucker, my pal, when Paul asked you the other day about your favorite song, you mentioned Jerry Garcia before the show cut to break. Was that another sarcastic aside, or is there really a Deadhead underneath the conservative exterior, tie-dye behind the bow tie?"
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, Tucker?
CARLSON: No, it wasn't
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... at all. And there was nothing left-wing about Jerry Garcia. He was scrupulously apolitical until he died of health problems. He was a great man and a great musician.
BEGALA: As so many people do these days.
CARLSON: Yes, he was.
Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Ryan (ph) from Las Vegas.
My question is, with Wesley Clark leaning towards running for president, how big of a blow would his candidacy be to John Kerry's already floundering campaign?
CARLSON: It would be a crushing blow, stomp it like an insect. It would be terrible. BEGALA: General Clark was asked that this morning on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING" and he said, the person it will hurt is George W. Bush. And he's right, because Wes Clark has more experience as a commander than George W. Bush does.
CARLSON: It's all so amusing.
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next time -- that would be Monday, next week -- for yet more CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 12, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Is the Democratic presidential raise producing a serious challenger for George W. Bush? And political reality meets political fantasy. Is George Clooney's "K Street" a true reflection of life in Washington? -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Welcome to our lair.
Today, we look at the truth and the fiction inside a new television series about Washington and, for good measure, inside the Democratic presidential race, where truth is harder to find. But, first, a fact over which there is no dispute.
Here comes the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The saga continues. Howard Dean, M.D., continues to dig himself deeper and deeper and deeper as he attempts to explain where exactly he stands on Israel. Last week, you'll remember, Dean told a crowd that -- quote -- "It's not our place to take sides in the Middle East," as if it's immoral to favor a liberal, if flawed, democracy over suicide bombers. Huh?
Soon, Dr. Dean tried again. In an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Dean said -- and we are not making this up -- quote -- "Members of Hamas are soldiers in the war in the Middle East." So members of Hamas are soldiers. That's the headline. This was news to the State Department, which classified members of Hamas as terrorists. It might also come as a surprise to the families of the many Israeli children murdered on city buses by those soldiers of Hamas. Maybe Dr. Dean will explain further what he means. We cannot wait to hear it. PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Reminiscent -- of course, Hamas are not soldiers. They are terrorists. You are right. You're right to raise that point.
CARLSON: They're not? Should we take sides, do you think?
BEGALA: Of course we should. You're right to raise that point .
But what's interesting is, these are similar mistakes to those that our current president, then a governor, himself made in the last campaign. Democrats tried to pounce on Bush for his rare and raw ignorance of all things international. And it didn't do any good. I suspect your attacks on Dean won't do any good either.
CARLSON: No, actually -- no, no, but Bush didn't, I don't think, know a huge amount about the rest of the world, but he has always had very clear views: This is right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You may not agree with them.
BEGALA: Foreign policy means
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... Oklahoma for George W. Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, but, truly, I don't think Bush would ever say anything like that.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, critics say that Saudi Arabia has been slow to take on al Qaeda terrorists. But the Saudis know a real enemy when they see one, Barbie dolls. The Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, the Saudi version of Ken Starr's sex police, says -- quote -- "Jewish Barbie dolls, with their revealing clothes and shameful postures, are a symbol of decadence to the perverted West."
Although the leader of the perverted West, President Bush, plainly loves the Saudi dictatorship. He is seen here holding hands in a manly, macho, not at all gay way with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. Perhaps Mr. Bush goes easy on his Saudi buddies because he's too busy attacking America's real enemies, France, Germany, Canada and soon, perhaps, Barbie herself.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Barbie? Barbie?
CARLSON: I have to say, they really are a creepy group. And they eat with their hands, incidentally.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Barbie dolls?
CARLSON: No, the Saudis.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And there is a huge debate.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, and so do I. But I'm still for Barbies.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: But there is a huge debate in the administration. There are actually a lot of people against the Saudi government in this administration. And I think it's probably -- to say they are all hand-holders with them.
BEGALA: They are hand-holders.
CARLSON: Well, they're close, not that there's anything wrong with that.
You often here liberals say that the right is obsessed with Bill Clinton. And it is true that conservatives don't generally care for him. But obsessed? No one is more obsessed with Bill Clinton than Bill Clinton.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Though he's no longer, strictly speaking, employed, Clinton refuses to stop calling attention to himself. He's embarked this weekend on the "look at me" tour. He's off to Iowa and California to steal the political limelight from real Democratic presidential candidates. It's very sad.
Meanwhile, fund-raising for the Clinton Presidential Library and ego-plex continues apace with the newly released "Clinton Presidential Center Cookbook." And we're not making this up. We never do. The $35 tome features 250 recipes, including Barbra Streisand's southern lemon icebox pie. We dare you to eat that.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Mary Steenburgen's garlic cheese grits, Hillary Clinton's chocolate chip cookies. At least they have a sense of humor. And even pork and sausage jambalaya by our own James Carville.
BEGALA: He makes great jambalaya. CARLSON: I know he does. I'm for it.
BEGALA: By the way, you always attack Barbra Streisand. The last time I was out at her place, I saw the lovely macrame throw pillow you made for her. So
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're in the same aromatherapy class. I'm sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, a new poll commissioned by the Draft Al Gore Committee, but conducted by independent pollster John Zogby, shows that the current occupant of the White House is in a dead heat with the man who got more votes than him in 2000.
Well, perhaps losing 2.5 million jobs, misleading America into an unnecessary invasion and a disastrous occupation, while squandering a $1 trillion projected surplus can maybe hurt a guy politically. Gallup Poll has more bad news for Mr. Bush. His approval rating has dropped nearly 20 points in five months. Attempting to spin the bad news, White House aides note, Mr. Bush is still popular with such key Republican constituencies as Confederate flag-wavers, black helicopter paranoids, gay bashers, television evangelists, and, of course, oil company executives.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So he's got that base.
CARLSON: You kind of buried the headline there. And the headline, Paul, is that there is a Draft Al Gore Committee.
BEGALA: There is.
CARLSON: Just as there is a Draft Wesley Clark Committee, just as there is a draft-Hillary movement. The point is, people look at this field of nine candidates and say, they are lame. And not one of them can beat President Bush. It's sad.
(BELL RINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, you wait and see. They're going to do just fine.
Well, in a minute, we will take a look at the state of the Democratic presidential race, see if they are as lame as my friend Tucker thinks so.
Later still -- and you'll be glad you stayed for this -- an HBO program shines a light on the seamy underbelly of politics. And they're not talking about talk shows. Apparently, some politicians would rather you stay in the dark.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
New polls show President Bush's approval ratings have dropped so fast that even Gray Davis is starting to feel sorry for him. After a high of 90 percent, the president now is about as popular in some quarters as Trent Lott at Kwanzaa party.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Of course, if they go any lower, rumor has it Dick Cheney may drop Mr. Bush from the ticket.
Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to debate the president's prospects and the Democrats' fits and starts, Republican consultant Stuart Stevens, a media adviser to our president, and Democrat strategist Peter Fenn.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Peter, let me just point out that Trent Lott celebrates Kwanzaa now. So that's not exactly completely...
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Exactly. That's not completely fair.
"The Washington Post" pointed out in a very fair page-one story this morning, though, that one of the reasons Howard Dean has gotten so much traction in his criticism of the president on Iraq, is, he doesn't have a record to defend, unlike John Kerry and Dick Gephardt, both of whom had the opportunity to vote for a resolution that would have called for the U.N. to sanction anything the U.S. did. Both of them didn't vote for it and instead voted essentially to go to war.
Given that, shouldn't they just be quiet about the Iraq war, since it's already over, and maybe move on to like a new idea or two?
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You are suggesting that they zip it? Is that what you're suggesting?
CARLSON: No. No. I'm just saying the hypocrisy level is too high, isn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: No. Listen, everybody has to vote in this Congress. And, as you point out, Howard Dean doesn't. But everybody has got to vote. And they often vote yes, but; yes, and; no, but; no, and.
Look, their views on this war were put forth front and center. They are totally entitled to give their views right now. And I think, right now, what we are seeing is, how do you spell quagmire? And if this president, who said he had an exit strategy and doesn't, who said he had a plan for how to get these troops out and doesn't, doesn't come up with something by next spring, his political life is going to be very, very short.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Stuart, let me ask you to pick up on that.
In the polls this week -- I just made reference to them -- your client, our president, is at his lowest point since 9/11 of 2001. Is it because of the jobless recovery or the endless quagmire in Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not a false choice.
STUART STEVENS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: I'm sure it's because of you on CROSSFIRE.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVENS: Look, I think that, right now, obviously, it's a tough time in Iraq.
But I think that the qualities that elected Bush, of restoring honor and dignity to the White House, a sense of clear leadership, a person who doesn't equivocate, a person who Americans can be proud of, I think those qualities are going to stand him very well through the next year.
It's ridiculous now to call these elections. I don't think any president is ahead like this. A guy named Bill Clinton, who did pretty well in '96, wasn't having such a great '94 or '95. I think that the choice is going to show up. And I think the Democratic Party is going to end up with a very strong candidate. I think the process demands it. I can't you who it's going to be, remotely.
But I think there's going to be some very clear choices about talking about the past and talking about the future. And I think sort of bold, steady leadership and a president the people can be proud of is going to be pretty compelling.
FENN: Stu is absolutely right. There are going to be very clear choices here.
I think the problem is that the choices are going to be, for the Republicans, a leader -- who you call a leader -- who is three million jobs and counting.
STEVENS: I call him the president.
FENN: Well, yes. There may be people who don't want to call him president after this.
But where Iraq is in a shambles, where his -- the deficits are going up over $600 billion, where he makes promises about the environment that he doesn't keep, this is not a good sign.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The real choice, I think you will agree...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on, the real choice is a choice that needs to be made by the Democratic primary voters. And that's, who are you going to nominate to be not just your candidate, but the leader of your party? And Howard Dean looks like the man.
Here's my question. Nobody else who is running has really criticized him. Ed Koch, former mayor of New York, not in politics, said this about Howard Dean the other day -- quote -- "McGovern II, the worst." A lot of Democrats feel that way. Why don't more Democrats pipe up and just say, this guy is a loser?
FENN: Listen, first of all, I think we have got a lot of good candidates.
(APPLAUSE)
FENN: I think we have got a lot of candidates that can beat George W. Bush. Folks are beginning to mix it up.
Look, what you have seen right now with Howard Dean is somebody who has come to the fore because of his early criticism of the Iraq war and because of his galvanizing of the liberal element of the Democratic Party. This isn't December. This is September. And there's a lot that's going to happen. Lieberman is out there criticizing him today. Gephardt blasted him, in fact blasted him pretty hard. You are going to see these guys mix it up. This is going to be a real tough primary season.
And I think the cream will rise to the top, and then we'll see what happens come next spring.
STEVENS: Let me just say something about Iraq.
What American is doing in Iraq isn't a Republican or Democratic thing. Many of these Democratic presidential candidates supported it, as you know. It's something that America should be proud of. This is actually a great and noble endeavor that we are doing. We are freeing a people. We've found these mass graves.
(APPLAUSE)
STEVENS: This is a moment, it's not really...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what our president said. That's not what our president said when he led us into that war. He didn't say: Iraq is terrible to its people. Saddam Hussein is bad. We're going to get rid of him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He said, Saddam Hussein was a threat to us, to the homeland. He said there were unmanned vehicles that could attack by the air with chemical weapons. That was false.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He said they had a nuclear program. That was false. He misled us. Isn't that the problem politically?
(APPLAUSE)
STEVENS: This president talked about the human rights abuses, the fact this is the only person who has used weapons of mass destruction against his own people.
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: But let me ask you. Yes, or, no, would you rather Saddam Hussein be in power today or not?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I would rather those 300 Americans be alive today than not. Saddam Hussein was in a cage. He was in a cage.
STEVENS: Do you it's worth...
BEGALA: No, it was not worth those men's live, no , sir. And you go tell their families that he was a threat to us, because we know he wasn't now.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: Let me say this. No, let me say this. Let me say this.
I think that's absolutely outrageous. I think that each of those families knows that their loved ones died for a good and noble cause. And they are proud of those people.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They also died because our president misled us.
CARLSON: Paul has articulated that pretty well, that they died, as he just said, because the president misled us, essentially, Bush is responsible for their death, and it would better if Saddam were in power today. Do you think Democrats can run on that?
FENN: That's the dichotomy here. The key point is, he did not...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I said it was not worth the lie. So don't mischaracterize my
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: If you say, look, to the American people, this guy is an evil guy and we need to take him out, that's one thing.
But you -- you said -- he said -- the president said imminent threat. No imminent Threat. He said nuclear weapons. No nuclear weapons. He said chemical, biological weapons. We are finding them about as fast as we are finding Osama.
(APPLAUSE)
FENN: We have not found the reasons to go to the -- into that war.
But let's have that debate. That would have been fine. Let's have that debate. The key thing, I think, that we made our mistake -- and we are making it again -- is that we need the United Nations. We need other countries. If we are going beat terrorism, we ain't doing it alone. We're going to do it united, all together, going after terrorism.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: I have got to defend the Democratic presidential candidates.
I don't think that Lieberman, Kerry, Gephardt, who all voted go to war in Iraq are that naive. I think they knew what they were doing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They trusted the president. We'll never make that mistake again.
STEVENS: They are big boys. They make up their own mind. They're United States senators. They would like to be president.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... George Bush. That won't happen again.
STEVENS: And I think that they did the right thing then. They should stand up. They should be proud of it. This is a day that, 10 years from now, we are going to look back and we're going to be proud.
CARLSON: Gentlemen...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think you agree with Stuart Stevens, but, nevertheless, we're going to have to save that for another show.
Thank you very much, Peter Fenn. We appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thank you, guys.
CARLSON: After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer will update the headlines, including the latest from the Middle East and Iraq.
And we cannot let Stuart Stevens get away without telling us about the new television show he's helping to produce, "K Street." It intends to look at Washington's lobbyists and power brokers.
And that leads to our audience question this afternoon. Take out your voting devices and guess what politician is prominently featured in the first episode of "K Street." Press one if you think it's Vice President Dick Cheney. Press two if you think it's Senator Trent Lott doing a cameo. Press three if you think you will see Howard Dean when you tune in to "K Street."
Unfortunately, Al Sharpton not listed. That will be next week.
We will have the answer in just a moment.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Coming soon to a television near you, an experimental series on Washington's movers and shakers. It's called "K Street." It premieres Sunday on 10:35 Eastern on HBO, which is, we're proud to say, owned by AOL Time Warner, the same company that owns us here at CNN.
And it produced by, among others, George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh. And "K Street" features, again, among others, on-camera appearances by James Carville, Mary Matalin, and Mike Deaver.
By happy coincidence, "K Street"'s co-producer just happens to be our guest today, Republican consultant Stu Stevens.
We will start by letting him ask our "Ask the Audience" question. And that was, which politician is prominently featured in the very first episode? Is it Dick Cheney? Is it Trent Lott? Or is it Dr. Howard Dean, M.D., from the proud state of Vermont?
STEVENS: Not going to touch it. Tune in Sunday night on HBO, 10:30.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And there you go. Well, 51 percent think it's going to be Trent Lott.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We have the answer. We actually -- we've been getting in your waste paper baskets and we pulled out a confidential memo that found out that it was not, in fact, Trent Lott.
BEGALA: Really?
CARLSON: No.
BEGALA: Most people think it is.
Tune in and see. Tune in and see.
Stuart, in addition to your success as a Republican political professional, you wrote for "Northern Exposure," an Emmy Award-winning television show. You wrote for "I'll Fly Away," which I remember fondly. How is "K Street" different from those other shows you've worked on?
STEVENS: "K Street," I think it's legitimate to say, is unlike any show that's ever been done on television.
Steven Soderbergh calls it real-time fiction. Each week, the show will reinvent itself. There's no scripts in advance. There's really no scripts. It's putting people in situations and having them talk as if they would talk in these situations. On the show that's going to air Sunday night, we started talking about what should be in the show on Sunday. And it's going to be that way, like a weekly newsmagazine would be.
CARLSON: See, but here's the problem for people, real-life people you ask on the show. If you asked a real-life politician on or and he says something outrageous on your show -- and people get before cameras and they're likely to do that -- then he reaps real-life consequences from that, doesn't he? He can destroy his career on cable television.
STEVENS: Hey, you guys yell and scream at politicians all the time.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVENS: And they keep coming back. They are big boys and girls.
I think that people are going to be seen on the show, politicians, and other people, be it political figures in Washington or whomever, as they are, because the show is completely unfiltered. It's not a left show or right show. It has no point to make as far as a political spectrum. It's simply a look at this world and how this world works. And people are going to come across just as they are.
BEGALA: Well, one of the big causes for buzz in Washington is that George Clooney is one of the executive producers of it. Why have one of the biggest stars in Hollywood and not put him in your show? Or is this just one of these deals where he lends his name and then goes off to France or wherever those guys go?
STEVENS: I have absolutely been blown away by how hard George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh have worked on this. George is not only executive producing. He's also shooting one of the cameras and working like a dog, I got to say.
BEGALA: A high-class cameraman.
STEVENS: And he's actually very good at it.
BEGALA: In fact, many of our cameramen look exactly like George Clooney. I don't know if Howard can get a shot
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, but why do that? Even by the standards of union scale for cameramen, whatever the nay -- bit pay scale is, he seems like a pretty expensive cameraman. Why have him shoot it?
STEVENS: He's fascinated by the process. He's a very interesting guy. His father is a journalist. He grew up surrounded by journalism and press. And he's very interested in politics. He's very interested in Washington.
I think, for him, it just -- it seems to be incredibly energizing, and the same for Steven Soderbergh, to be immersed in this world, to be creating something that there's really no template for. It's very much a high-wire act, and they seem to be absolutely thriving on it.
BEGALA: You've already created some controversy.
Trent Lott, the Republican chairman of the Senate Rules Committee, has decreed, thou shalt not film in the Capitol, because "K Street" is a for-profit enterprise. By the way, so is CNN. They let us film in the Capitol. I don't understand the logic. Could this be because maybe Lott heard a rumor that he is treated poorly in the first episode? He's trying to punish you? Is that -- any truth to that rumor?
STEVENS: As someone from Mississippi, I would never allow that to happen.
(LAUGHTER) STEVENS: No, this is actually much ado about nothing. It's been a long-standing rule, which those of us who make commercials -- you remember, you can't film your clients in their offices or in the halls of Congress or the Senate. And that's -- no new rule was made here. It's just Trent reiterating the rule, which I think it makes sense, because if you let one person do it, then you let everybody do it.
And then you are in the business of saying, well, I like this show, so we'll let them, or I don't like these people, or I'm mad at this guy. So it makes sense. And, look, we're not interested in where we're going to shoot it. We're interested in who we're going to shoot. So we'll go anywhere.
CARLSON: Stuart Stevens, we're looking forward to see who you shoot next.
(CROSSTALK)
STEVENS: Thanks very much.
CARLSON: Best of luck on "K Street." No luck, I hope, though, in the Bush campaign. I know you have got two hats on this program, but thank you for wearing both of them so ably.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Next, we promise that we'll give you the real answer to our "Ask the Audience" question. No, we don't.
Then, in "Fireback, one of our viewers asks Tucker Carlson one of the same questions that was put to the presidential candidates in this week's debate. Find out, what is our friend Tucker's favorite song?
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
By now, I'll bet you are really wondering the answer to our audience question: Which politician will be featured? Well, you saw the producer of the program, Stuart Stevens, in our last segment refuse to answer. And so we are going to tell you what CNN's CROSSFIRE sources have learned, that it is not Dick Cheney, it is not Trent Lott. CNN's CROSSFIRE sources have told us that, in fact, it's going to be Howard Dean.
But we will have to tune in on Sunday night to see.
CARLSON: It makes sense. He's very telegenic.
BEGALA: Well, we'll have to see if that's true. CARLSON: I would like to see Dick Cheney on.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Dick Cheney is sort of a charismatic guy.
CARLSON: Oh, yes.
BEGALA: Maybe not.
First up, Flo Wolfert of Palm Coast, Florida, a registered Florida voter, writes: "If Wesley Clark runs for president, there is not a person in his or her right mind who would not vote for him."
What a great slogan. Vote for Wesley Clark or you are mentally ill.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I like that. Good luck.
BEGALA: All right, let's see.
Here. Our next one is from Dave Schleicher in Moraga, California. He writes: "Tucker, my pal, when Paul asked you the other day about your favorite song, you mentioned Jerry Garcia before the show cut to break. Was that another sarcastic aside, or is there really a Deadhead underneath the conservative exterior, tie-dye behind the bow tie?"
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, Tucker?
CARLSON: No, it wasn't
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... at all. And there was nothing left-wing about Jerry Garcia. He was scrupulously apolitical until he died of health problems. He was a great man and a great musician.
BEGALA: As so many people do these days.
CARLSON: Yes, he was.
Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Ryan (ph) from Las Vegas.
My question is, with Wesley Clark leaning towards running for president, how big of a blow would his candidacy be to John Kerry's already floundering campaign?
CARLSON: It would be a crushing blow, stomp it like an insect. It would be terrible. BEGALA: General Clark was asked that this morning on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING" and he said, the person it will hurt is George W. Bush. And he's right, because Wes Clark has more experience as a commander than George W. Bush does.
CARLSON: It's all so amusing.
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next time -- that would be Monday, next week -- for yet more CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
