Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
California Recall on Hold?
Aired September 15, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: California gets crazier. A court says, stop the recall. The national Democratic and Republican Party chairmen tell us what's next in the Golden State.
Plus: political theater with real politicians. Welcome to "K Street."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "K STREET")
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
On a day that's ban political earthquake in California, a panel of the same appeals court that ruled the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional has now put the California recall on hold. We'll debate hyper judicial activism, plus the presidential race, with the chairman of both political parties.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, the candidates are still campaigning. Bill Clinton is still wandering around the state looking for attention. And yet, as we noted, California's October recall election is likely to be delayed until at least next March. There are, in fact, good reasons to be against the recall, but the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals cited none of them today. Instead, at the behest of the ACLU, the court ruled that California voters are just too stupid to use punch-card voting machines.
Tellingly, the court did not throw out the results of the 2002 election, in which those very same machines were used. Gray Davis, you'll remember, was reelected in that election. Was Gray Davis' reelection valid? Maybe the court will take up that question next. And, of course, we'll keep you posted.
CARVILLE: Well, Tucker, unlike you, I haven't read the court's decision.
And I would point out that Bill Clinton actually has done something twice that George Bush has never done. And that is, carry California.
CARLSON: No, no, but James, James, James.
CARVILLE: And carried it big.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Before you get into irrelevant presidential facts, truly, if they're not good enough now, why were they good enough two years ago?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did you read -- I haven't read the opinion, so I'm not like one of these kind of right-wing people that stand outside protesting a movie they have never seen.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: James, look, James, we can have -- I'll fill you in on the legal scholarship later.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The question remains, if they're good enough then, why are they not good enough now?
CARVILLE: What happened is that they had judicial activism in Florida, when they overturned the presidential election and no Republican said anything. Now they are all aghast at the judicial activism in California.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You don't care about judicial activism.
CARLSON: Not going to answer the question, are you?
CARVILLE: You care about the perpetration and furtherance of right-wing power.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Once upon the time, the Pentagon hoped it would get 60,000 foreign troops to come to our help for our overworked, overstretched men and women in Iraq.
In his speech to the nation, President Bush said -- quote -- "Members of the United Nations now have an opportunity and the responsibility to assume a broader role in assuring that Iraq becomes a free and democratic nation." In response to that speech, members of the United Nations have apparently said, no thanks. You broke it. You bought it.
Yesterday, on "Face the Nation," Secretary Rumsfeld admitted, the number of additional foreign troops to come to help us could be zero. I guess, when it comes to putting together international support, failure is an option. And this day is another example of why it's time for Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz to go out.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, the rest of the world isn't, by and large, behind us. Western Europe was against the war from the very beginning. So it's no surprise that they're not going to commit troops or a whole lot of money. Now, they don't actually have the troops, as you may not know.
But I think the really interesting question here is, if France and Germany, etcetera, say they really care about the people of Iraq, why aren't they ponying up money to help those people? It is an interesting question. But you lay no blame at their feet.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why is that?
CARVILLE: What I'm saying is, if we had diplomacy, if we spent less time being arrogant and more time trying to live in the world and getting people to help us, instead of time trying to convince people we are righteous in our cause, we don't have...
CARLSON: But why is it always America's fault?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Because we have idiots like Wolfowitz in the Department of Defense that have taken us down a bad path. That's why.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I guess it's just more complicated than that.
CARVILLE: Not really.
(LAUGHTER) CARLSON: Here's something that's not that complicated. As many of you may know, CROSSFIRE's own James Carville is the star of the latest HBO dramatic hit "K Street." Those of you who missed the premiere last night missed a truly mind-boggling blend of political theater and reality.
At one point, James Carville the actor suggested a line to sometime actor Howard Dean, M.D. The following day, Dean took him up on that line, but not in the studio, in real life. Watch. And, remember, this is real.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "K STREET")
CARVILLE: Get the Vermont question, say, look, if the percentage of black folks in your state was determinative of your record on civil rights, then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, if the percent of minorities that is in your state has anything to do with how you can connect with African-American voters, then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: That's pretty amazing, I have to say. I'm for Howard Dean, M.D. I think he would be a terrific loser.
But I think he's going to blow himself up before the end with stuff like this.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I think it's a great line. I would take your advice, too. But it's just not cautious. It's kind of dumb. I think
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Wait a minute.
So if Howard Dean -- this is how naive Washington is. Ladies and gentlemen in TV land, presidents, candidates for presidents, governors, senators, have people that write for them. They have debate prep. Sometimes, people give them a line. And let me say this. Any person, the present occupant of the White House included, anybody who had a speechwriter, can attack Howard Dean for this.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Howard Dean is a genuine guy. I was very honored to help prep him. I talked to other Democratic candidates.
CARLSON: I'm for Howard Dean, too, let the record show. CARVILLE: And, yes, there are speechwriters. Yes, there are speechwriters.
Former Republican Congressman and current MSNBC host Joe Scarborough has betrayed the public trust in a way that he never could as a congressman. Each week on his show, Scarborough names -- quote -- "Rat of the Week" -- unquote -- someone who's done something contemptible. A couple weeks ago, his "Rat of the Week" was a company that makes wood preservatives. On Friday, Scarborough admitted that the company he named is the same company is his law firm is suing.
MSNBC should be embarrassed of firing honest hosts like Phil Donahue by giving someone like Joe Scarborough a forum to mislead viewers and enrich himself. But the real lesson here is, you can't trust Republicans in Congress, even once they leave Congress.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I have to say, James, as ornery and unreasonable as you've gotten lately, I have to agree with you on this. For him to get his ambulance-chaser buddy on the show, Scarborough, and pretend he's just some sort of objective observer for his own enrichment is disgusting. And I hope he gets canceled immediately.
CARVILLE: And I agree with you that I had a mind-boggling performance on "K Street." So we're in complete agreement. I'm just...
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I appreciate the compliment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no, no. It was a good performance.
And I hate it when you pick something that happens totally by chance to be correct. It's the monkeys-at-the-typewriter principle. Every once in a while, you come up right. It's an accident of the universe, but it's a principle.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But, anyway, yes, poor Joe Scarborough. I hope they fire him soon.
In just a minute, the chairmen of both political parties join us to talk about the California recall, plus the national election, plus Bill Clinton, who suddenly seems to be everywhere.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: A federal appeals court panel today told California to put off the recall until people can have voting machines that work. Imagine that. The American Civil Liberties Union had sued because officials planned to use punch-card machines in six counties, including L.A. County.
After Florida, we all know how well they work. By happy coincidence, the ruling came on the day where the chairmen of both political parties are in the CROSSFIRE.
Please welcome Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie and Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I want to just -- Ed, you go first -- or, Terry.
What does this mean? Is there going to be an election October 7? Or, honestly, do you know? Has anybody advised you?
ED GILLESPIE, REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIRMAN: I have not heard, James. It's obviously breaking news. And we'll just watch.
As you know, from our perspective at the RNC, Terry has got an incumbent Democratic governor there. We have no nominee in the field, and so we have not taken a position. This is a matter for the voters of California to decide.
(CROSSTALK)
GILLESPIE: But I'll tell you, in terms of -- obviously, this is the same circuit court that ruled that "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance should be thrown out.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is this the same judges that ruled that? How many judges on the circuit court?
GILLESPIE: I don't think there's been much turnover on that court, because the president's nominees to that court have been blocked every step of the way by the Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Are these the same judges that ruled that? Or is it different judges?
GILLESPIE: I believe they're mostly the same, because
(CROSSTALK) CARVILLE: They're only three. And I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that none of them are on this panel.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: By the way, Terry, before you give the overview, I want to ask you a very specific question here. The idea appears to be, liberals are saying that these voting machines, because they're not very accurate, not accurate enough, disenfranchise voters.
Yet these are the same machines that elected Gray Davis -- reelected him -- in 2002, at which point liberals said absolutely nothing, so -- leading me to believe that there's really no principle at stake in this lawsuit. It's purely an attempt to keep power.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRY MCAULIFFE, DNC CHAIRMAN: First of all, many of the precincts are being consolidated. So literally thousands of precincts will not have polling booths. So, first of all, there's confusion about where you go vote on October 7. But this issue will now be sent to the Supreme Court.
CARLSON: But machines themselves, specifically the machines.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why were they good enough then, but not now?
MCAULIFFE: Well, they ruled the unconstitutionality after the election. The court has ruled. Now they're unconstitutional. So the court has ruled that.
It now will go up to the United States Supreme Court. I have no illusions. Sandra Day O'Connor, apparently, is out of the country. So Justice Scalia will hear this, who is the architect of Bush vs. Gore. So we have no illusions. We assume this is going ahead on October 7. We think that Scalia will stop this, like he did Bush vs. Gore. And we're going to have to deal with it accordingly.
CARVILLE: Ed, it's my understanding that the court relied heavily on Bush vs. Gore, which, of course, is very decisive, so -- whatever it is.
Don't you find it kind of ironic that they overturned one election and used that as a rationale to stop another one?
(LAUGHTER)
GILLESPIE: I'm not an attorney. I was lucky to get out of college.
(CROSSTALK)
GILLESPIE: But I'll tell you, the fact is, this -- Terry has said on other shows prior to when the media did the recount. "The New York Times," "The Miami Herald" and others said, when they finish this recount, we'll know the fact is that Al Gore won Florida. The fact is, they all came out and said that the president won. There was no doubt about it.
CARVILLE: But I don't want to get into an argument that they said just the opposite, that, if they counted all the votes, Gore would have won. But go ahead and we'll agree to disagree.
GILLESPIE: No, no, they counted all the votes. And the president still won by Gore's own standards. So I'm not sure of the import of the question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I do. Go ahead.
MCAULIFFE: No matter what happens, we're doing great. As you see the poll numbers out there, Gray Davis, no on recall is gaining a lot of momentum. On question two, the lieutenant governor, Cruz Bustamante, is doing great. He's leading right now.
CARLSON: He's not doing great.
Please be honest enough, Terry McAuliffe, with me here to admit that he's in deep trouble. I believe that this is going to be delayed.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: Who's in deep trouble?
CARLSON: Cruz Bustamante, as lieutenant governor.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: He's leading every poll I've seen.
CARLSON: Well, if this election is delayed until March, it's likely that Davis will keep his job, at which point, Bustamante, having attempted a palace coup, didn't pull it off.
He tried to kill his leader, essentially. And then he won't have achieved that. Where does that leave him? He's now shown to be disloyal.
MCAULIFFE: Well, you've seen his weekend the governor, lieutenant governor, Gray Davis, Cruz Bustamante, together.
I would say there's confusion on the Republican side. You have Tom McClintock, the conservative. You have Arnold Schwarzenegger. I'm not quite sure if he's a Republican, conservative. I'm not sure what he is. As you know, he's pro-gay rights, pro-gun control, pro- choice, pro-orgy, pro-hashish. I'm not sure what he is.
(LAUGHTER)
MCAULIFFE: But that's your new Republican Party.
Let me tell you, if he ever -- if Arnold Schwarzenegger ever would won, I would love to go to a Republican Governors Association. What a party this could be -- he could light up that group.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Taking off what Terry said, I asked Congressman Dreier this. And he couldn't answer it. Maybe you can. Could you name me three social issues that Arnold Schwarzenegger is more conservative on than Howard Dean?
GILLESPIE: James, I don't -- I haven't followed
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I understand. But you're the chairman of the Republican Party.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Can you try a couple, just for the fun of it?
GILLESPIE: I appreciate your invitation to draw me into a discussion between two viable Republicans in California, when we have no nominee. But I'm just going to take a pass. We don't have a view. We have no nominee there.
CARVILLE: Let the record show, this is the second Republican I asked.
(CROSSTALK)
GILLESPIE: California Republicans will decide this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Terry, let me ask you this question. Your friend...
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: Absolutely. The NRA is fully supportive.
CARLSON: Former President Bill Clinton -- and you're bragging about that, let the record show.
MCAULIFFE: You're right. Yes. Yes.
CARLSON: Former President Bill Clinton is in California, where he's fairly popular...
MCAULIFFE: Didn't you eat his wife's shoe?
CARLSON: Well, I did, in fact.
(LAUGHTER) CARLSON: And he did a Gray Davis event yesterday. And at that event was newly paroled accused murderer Robert Blake, cheering on Bill Clinton and Gray Davis. What do you think about Davis and Clinton appeals to Robert Blake?
MCAULIFFE: I don't know who -- there were thousands of people at the event yesterday. I can't tell you who was there, who wasn't there.
I think it's great President Clinton is out there campaigning for Gray Davis. I think it's exciting. You seem always to be obsessed by Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That guy will not be quiet and go away. He should go in for retirement like every other former president.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm not obsessed. He throws himself into the public eye. Please, leave us alone.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Before we go to break, we're going to let the members of our audience do something that Californians can't do, vote. Take out your voting devices and tell us: Are you happy the California recall has been delayed? Press one for, yes, you have a mean streak and want to see the misery prolonged, so you're happy the recall may be delayed and Gray Davis remains in office. Press two for, no, you, like Mother Teresa, have compassion. You want to see California rescued from its current condition.
We'll have the results when we return.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back it CROSSFIRE.
We're talking politics -- and there's plenty of that to talk about -- with the chairmen of both major political parties, Democratic National Committee Chairmen Terry McAuliffe and Republican National Committee Chairmen Ed Gillespie.
Before the break, we asked our audience: Are you happy with the California recall and the fact it may be delayed? And here are the results. Yes, say 29 percent of Republicans. Yes, say 67 percents of Democrats, and then essentially the flip on the other side.
GILLESPIE: What's the weighting? What's the weighting?
CARVILLE: Never let it be said that just America is divided. The CROSSFIRE audience is divided also.
CARLSON: Now, Terry McAuliffe, America is divided, as you're fully aware more than most people, but, in no small part due to the efforts of Democrats.
Dick Gephardt, running for president, described this president as -- quote -- "a miserable failure." John Edwards called him an absolute phony. Dennis Kucinich called him a liar. John Kerry compared him to Saddam Hussein. Howard Dean may have compared him to the Taliban, depending on how you read it. Why the name-calling? Why the rhetoric like this? Why not just say, we disagree with his policies? Why do you have go that low?
MCAULIFFE: I think everybody disagrees with this president's policies. Our candidates are out there. They disagree violently with where George Bush is on so many of these different issues.
CARLSON: But these are personal attacks, failure, phony, liar. Why?
MCAULIFFE: As I've said consistently, the Republican Party's history has been of negative attacks. This is the party that we saw brought us Willie Horton, attacks on Tom Daschle, comparing -- doing ads with pictures of Osama bin Laden.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Just to sort of remind you.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: That was one the most racist ads in the history of politics.
CARLSON: There was nothing racist about it. That's a lie. And you shouldn't say that.
MCAULIFFE: It isn't a lie.
GILLESPIE: Wait a second, though. Let's also remember something else.
It was not the Republican Party that ran the Willie Horton ad. It was Al Gore who first introduced it into the debate when he was running in the primary against Dukakis. And it was a third-party group. It was not the Bush administration and it was not the Republican Party that ran the ad.
MCAULIFFE: Well, first of all, I disagree. First of all, they ran focus groups on Willie Horton.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So to call a rapist a rapist is a racist? Please.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: This president went around the country doing press conferences attacking Willie Horton. These were racist ads comparing Tom Daschle to Osama bin Laden, attacking Max Cleland.
CARLSON: What's that got
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. I'm losing track.
CARVILLE: We can settle this.
I have here, Mr. Gillespie, an IOU to the RNC for $1,000. Now, I say George W. Bush has trouble with the truth. You say he doesn't. I want to show you a clip of President Bush saying something here. Can we run that, please?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I remember campaigning in Chicago. And one of the reporters said, would you ever deficit-spend? I said only, only, in times of war, in times of economic insecurity as a result of a recession, or in times of national emergency. Never did I dream we'd have a trifecta.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Mr. Gillespie, if the Republican National Committee can provide me with proof that the president said that during the campaign, I will give you, to the Republican National Committee, a check for $1,000, because what that man stood up there and said was just a bald-faced lie.
GILLESPIE: I don't agree with that, James. I was on the campaign.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: OK.
GILLESPIE: I was on the campaign. We always made that point.
And the point is, it's in state constitutions, where they have constitutional amendments that say that.
CARVILLE: Show me the proof of him -- show me the tape of him during the campaign saying that. Now, you know who said that during the campaign, don't you?
GILLESPIE: President Bush. Who else?
CARVILLE: No. Al Gore. Al Gore. Again, all you have to do is provide me with independent proof that President Bush said that on the campaign trail and I will provide you out of my own pocket with $1,000.
MCAULIFFE: Let's make it two grand.
CARVILLE: Two grand. You get in on this action.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're almost out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: ... chicken, come on.
GILLESPIE: Let's accept the fact...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: This is so insane, I can't participate.
(LAUGHTER)
GILLESPIE: The president is exactly right, James. We were hit with a recession. We were hit with a war. And we were hit with the...
CARVILLE: Who said that on the campaign trail?
GILLESPIE: That was the position on the campaign.
CARVILLE: No, he said he said it. If he's a truthful man -- But he never said it.
GILLESPIE: I worked on the campaign. That was the position from the outset.
CARLSON: Can I bring us back to 2003?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We only have 30 seconds left.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Terry McAuliffe, I want to talk about this race. Obviously, those of us who support...
MCAULIFFE: '04.
CARLSON: '04.
Those of us who support Howard Dean are sad to watch his destruction, basically setting himself on fire every time he talks. Can you pledge to us here -- in the 10 seconds we have left -- that you'll help him, help him not talk too much and be thereby destroy his chances of becoming the nominee?
MCAULIFFE: I love all nine equally. Any one of the nine are going to beat George Bush.
Tucker, I'll put a bet on you today. You and me will make some news. I will bet. You bet for the Democratic nominee. I'll even vote for George Bush if he can get those three million people their job back that lost it since he's been president, we're back into surplus spending, and 40 million Americans have good health insurance. You and I bet.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't know what the bet is, but I'll bet you.
Ed Gillespie, thanks so much. Terry McAuliffe, we appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll sign this and give it to Mr. Gillespie if he can prove Bush is not a liar.
CARLSON: In just a minute, we'll tell our viewers you can fire back at us. And they will. One of them has had enough about a certain noncandidate.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time for our own experiment in radical populism. We call it "Fireback." We throw open the gates and let your opinions come streaming in. And, boy, do they.
First up from the e-mail bag is Will Schwarz of Richmond, California, who writes: "The voting machines that were good enough just one year ago to elect Mr. Davis are now not good enough to recall him?"
That's an excellent question.
CARVILLE: There we go. I think the primary basis of this was taken from Bush vs. Gore in 2000, kind of like, you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
"I wonder if Arnold will accept the appellate court decision as 'Total Recall' of the election or do the Bush maneuver and go to the Supreme Court for a 5-4 decision to disenfranchise 44 percent of the voters so he can win" -- Joe Margraff, Saint Louis, Missouri.
CARLSON: James, we said at the beginning of our show there would be no math. And so I'm not going to even attempt to understand that. But I do think, if he's not elected governor, in a way, it will spare us the endless movie-title puns. You know what I mean?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I got you.
CARLSON: Robby Grant from Atlanta writes: "CNN's continuing coverage of General Wesley Clark's breathing patterns is making me long for coverage of more fascinating issues, such as James Carville's next hairstyle."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We have been fairly vigilant in covering every little thing about General Wesley Clark, I must say. When he talks about, possibly, he could be a Democrat, when he talks about, "Tomorrow, I'm going to announce; I may be thinking about becoming a Democrat, we're there.
CARVILLE: "Thank you God for judges that have some brains. This is Florida all over again. Bill Clinton has done it again. His mere presence has brought some sanity to this mess" -- Marvin Higgins, New York City, New York.
Well, you ought to give Clinton credit for a lot, but I don't about
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes. When I think chaotic situations, who brings order? Bill Clinton. Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 15, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: California gets crazier. A court says, stop the recall. The national Democratic and Republican Party chairmen tell us what's next in the Golden State.
Plus: political theater with real politicians. Welcome to "K Street."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "K STREET")
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
On a day that's ban political earthquake in California, a panel of the same appeals court that ruled the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional has now put the California recall on hold. We'll debate hyper judicial activism, plus the presidential race, with the chairman of both political parties.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, the candidates are still campaigning. Bill Clinton is still wandering around the state looking for attention. And yet, as we noted, California's October recall election is likely to be delayed until at least next March. There are, in fact, good reasons to be against the recall, but the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals cited none of them today. Instead, at the behest of the ACLU, the court ruled that California voters are just too stupid to use punch-card voting machines.
Tellingly, the court did not throw out the results of the 2002 election, in which those very same machines were used. Gray Davis, you'll remember, was reelected in that election. Was Gray Davis' reelection valid? Maybe the court will take up that question next. And, of course, we'll keep you posted.
CARVILLE: Well, Tucker, unlike you, I haven't read the court's decision.
And I would point out that Bill Clinton actually has done something twice that George Bush has never done. And that is, carry California.
CARLSON: No, no, but James, James, James.
CARVILLE: And carried it big.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Before you get into irrelevant presidential facts, truly, if they're not good enough now, why were they good enough two years ago?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did you read -- I haven't read the opinion, so I'm not like one of these kind of right-wing people that stand outside protesting a movie they have never seen.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: James, look, James, we can have -- I'll fill you in on the legal scholarship later.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The question remains, if they're good enough then, why are they not good enough now?
CARVILLE: What happened is that they had judicial activism in Florida, when they overturned the presidential election and no Republican said anything. Now they are all aghast at the judicial activism in California.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You don't care about judicial activism.
CARLSON: Not going to answer the question, are you?
CARVILLE: You care about the perpetration and furtherance of right-wing power.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Once upon the time, the Pentagon hoped it would get 60,000 foreign troops to come to our help for our overworked, overstretched men and women in Iraq.
In his speech to the nation, President Bush said -- quote -- "Members of the United Nations now have an opportunity and the responsibility to assume a broader role in assuring that Iraq becomes a free and democratic nation." In response to that speech, members of the United Nations have apparently said, no thanks. You broke it. You bought it.
Yesterday, on "Face the Nation," Secretary Rumsfeld admitted, the number of additional foreign troops to come to help us could be zero. I guess, when it comes to putting together international support, failure is an option. And this day is another example of why it's time for Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz to go out.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, the rest of the world isn't, by and large, behind us. Western Europe was against the war from the very beginning. So it's no surprise that they're not going to commit troops or a whole lot of money. Now, they don't actually have the troops, as you may not know.
But I think the really interesting question here is, if France and Germany, etcetera, say they really care about the people of Iraq, why aren't they ponying up money to help those people? It is an interesting question. But you lay no blame at their feet.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why is that?
CARVILLE: What I'm saying is, if we had diplomacy, if we spent less time being arrogant and more time trying to live in the world and getting people to help us, instead of time trying to convince people we are righteous in our cause, we don't have...
CARLSON: But why is it always America's fault?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Because we have idiots like Wolfowitz in the Department of Defense that have taken us down a bad path. That's why.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I guess it's just more complicated than that.
CARVILLE: Not really.
(LAUGHTER) CARLSON: Here's something that's not that complicated. As many of you may know, CROSSFIRE's own James Carville is the star of the latest HBO dramatic hit "K Street." Those of you who missed the premiere last night missed a truly mind-boggling blend of political theater and reality.
At one point, James Carville the actor suggested a line to sometime actor Howard Dean, M.D. The following day, Dean took him up on that line, but not in the studio, in real life. Watch. And, remember, this is real.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "K STREET")
CARVILLE: Get the Vermont question, say, look, if the percentage of black folks in your state was determinative of your record on civil rights, then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, if the percent of minorities that is in your state has anything to do with how you can connect with African-American voters, then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: That's pretty amazing, I have to say. I'm for Howard Dean, M.D. I think he would be a terrific loser.
But I think he's going to blow himself up before the end with stuff like this.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I think it's a great line. I would take your advice, too. But it's just not cautious. It's kind of dumb. I think
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Wait a minute.
So if Howard Dean -- this is how naive Washington is. Ladies and gentlemen in TV land, presidents, candidates for presidents, governors, senators, have people that write for them. They have debate prep. Sometimes, people give them a line. And let me say this. Any person, the present occupant of the White House included, anybody who had a speechwriter, can attack Howard Dean for this.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Howard Dean is a genuine guy. I was very honored to help prep him. I talked to other Democratic candidates.
CARLSON: I'm for Howard Dean, too, let the record show. CARVILLE: And, yes, there are speechwriters. Yes, there are speechwriters.
Former Republican Congressman and current MSNBC host Joe Scarborough has betrayed the public trust in a way that he never could as a congressman. Each week on his show, Scarborough names -- quote -- "Rat of the Week" -- unquote -- someone who's done something contemptible. A couple weeks ago, his "Rat of the Week" was a company that makes wood preservatives. On Friday, Scarborough admitted that the company he named is the same company is his law firm is suing.
MSNBC should be embarrassed of firing honest hosts like Phil Donahue by giving someone like Joe Scarborough a forum to mislead viewers and enrich himself. But the real lesson here is, you can't trust Republicans in Congress, even once they leave Congress.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I have to say, James, as ornery and unreasonable as you've gotten lately, I have to agree with you on this. For him to get his ambulance-chaser buddy on the show, Scarborough, and pretend he's just some sort of objective observer for his own enrichment is disgusting. And I hope he gets canceled immediately.
CARVILLE: And I agree with you that I had a mind-boggling performance on "K Street." So we're in complete agreement. I'm just...
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I appreciate the compliment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no, no. It was a good performance.
And I hate it when you pick something that happens totally by chance to be correct. It's the monkeys-at-the-typewriter principle. Every once in a while, you come up right. It's an accident of the universe, but it's a principle.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But, anyway, yes, poor Joe Scarborough. I hope they fire him soon.
In just a minute, the chairmen of both political parties join us to talk about the California recall, plus the national election, plus Bill Clinton, who suddenly seems to be everywhere.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: A federal appeals court panel today told California to put off the recall until people can have voting machines that work. Imagine that. The American Civil Liberties Union had sued because officials planned to use punch-card machines in six counties, including L.A. County.
After Florida, we all know how well they work. By happy coincidence, the ruling came on the day where the chairmen of both political parties are in the CROSSFIRE.
Please welcome Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie and Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I want to just -- Ed, you go first -- or, Terry.
What does this mean? Is there going to be an election October 7? Or, honestly, do you know? Has anybody advised you?
ED GILLESPIE, REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIRMAN: I have not heard, James. It's obviously breaking news. And we'll just watch.
As you know, from our perspective at the RNC, Terry has got an incumbent Democratic governor there. We have no nominee in the field, and so we have not taken a position. This is a matter for the voters of California to decide.
(CROSSTALK)
GILLESPIE: But I'll tell you, in terms of -- obviously, this is the same circuit court that ruled that "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance should be thrown out.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is this the same judges that ruled that? How many judges on the circuit court?
GILLESPIE: I don't think there's been much turnover on that court, because the president's nominees to that court have been blocked every step of the way by the Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Are these the same judges that ruled that? Or is it different judges?
GILLESPIE: I believe they're mostly the same, because
(CROSSTALK) CARVILLE: They're only three. And I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that none of them are on this panel.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: By the way, Terry, before you give the overview, I want to ask you a very specific question here. The idea appears to be, liberals are saying that these voting machines, because they're not very accurate, not accurate enough, disenfranchise voters.
Yet these are the same machines that elected Gray Davis -- reelected him -- in 2002, at which point liberals said absolutely nothing, so -- leading me to believe that there's really no principle at stake in this lawsuit. It's purely an attempt to keep power.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRY MCAULIFFE, DNC CHAIRMAN: First of all, many of the precincts are being consolidated. So literally thousands of precincts will not have polling booths. So, first of all, there's confusion about where you go vote on October 7. But this issue will now be sent to the Supreme Court.
CARLSON: But machines themselves, specifically the machines.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why were they good enough then, but not now?
MCAULIFFE: Well, they ruled the unconstitutionality after the election. The court has ruled. Now they're unconstitutional. So the court has ruled that.
It now will go up to the United States Supreme Court. I have no illusions. Sandra Day O'Connor, apparently, is out of the country. So Justice Scalia will hear this, who is the architect of Bush vs. Gore. So we have no illusions. We assume this is going ahead on October 7. We think that Scalia will stop this, like he did Bush vs. Gore. And we're going to have to deal with it accordingly.
CARVILLE: Ed, it's my understanding that the court relied heavily on Bush vs. Gore, which, of course, is very decisive, so -- whatever it is.
Don't you find it kind of ironic that they overturned one election and used that as a rationale to stop another one?
(LAUGHTER)
GILLESPIE: I'm not an attorney. I was lucky to get out of college.
(CROSSTALK)
GILLESPIE: But I'll tell you, the fact is, this -- Terry has said on other shows prior to when the media did the recount. "The New York Times," "The Miami Herald" and others said, when they finish this recount, we'll know the fact is that Al Gore won Florida. The fact is, they all came out and said that the president won. There was no doubt about it.
CARVILLE: But I don't want to get into an argument that they said just the opposite, that, if they counted all the votes, Gore would have won. But go ahead and we'll agree to disagree.
GILLESPIE: No, no, they counted all the votes. And the president still won by Gore's own standards. So I'm not sure of the import of the question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I do. Go ahead.
MCAULIFFE: No matter what happens, we're doing great. As you see the poll numbers out there, Gray Davis, no on recall is gaining a lot of momentum. On question two, the lieutenant governor, Cruz Bustamante, is doing great. He's leading right now.
CARLSON: He's not doing great.
Please be honest enough, Terry McAuliffe, with me here to admit that he's in deep trouble. I believe that this is going to be delayed.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: Who's in deep trouble?
CARLSON: Cruz Bustamante, as lieutenant governor.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: He's leading every poll I've seen.
CARLSON: Well, if this election is delayed until March, it's likely that Davis will keep his job, at which point, Bustamante, having attempted a palace coup, didn't pull it off.
He tried to kill his leader, essentially. And then he won't have achieved that. Where does that leave him? He's now shown to be disloyal.
MCAULIFFE: Well, you've seen his weekend the governor, lieutenant governor, Gray Davis, Cruz Bustamante, together.
I would say there's confusion on the Republican side. You have Tom McClintock, the conservative. You have Arnold Schwarzenegger. I'm not quite sure if he's a Republican, conservative. I'm not sure what he is. As you know, he's pro-gay rights, pro-gun control, pro- choice, pro-orgy, pro-hashish. I'm not sure what he is.
(LAUGHTER)
MCAULIFFE: But that's your new Republican Party.
Let me tell you, if he ever -- if Arnold Schwarzenegger ever would won, I would love to go to a Republican Governors Association. What a party this could be -- he could light up that group.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Taking off what Terry said, I asked Congressman Dreier this. And he couldn't answer it. Maybe you can. Could you name me three social issues that Arnold Schwarzenegger is more conservative on than Howard Dean?
GILLESPIE: James, I don't -- I haven't followed
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I understand. But you're the chairman of the Republican Party.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Can you try a couple, just for the fun of it?
GILLESPIE: I appreciate your invitation to draw me into a discussion between two viable Republicans in California, when we have no nominee. But I'm just going to take a pass. We don't have a view. We have no nominee there.
CARVILLE: Let the record show, this is the second Republican I asked.
(CROSSTALK)
GILLESPIE: California Republicans will decide this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Terry, let me ask you this question. Your friend...
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: Absolutely. The NRA is fully supportive.
CARLSON: Former President Bill Clinton -- and you're bragging about that, let the record show.
MCAULIFFE: You're right. Yes. Yes.
CARLSON: Former President Bill Clinton is in California, where he's fairly popular...
MCAULIFFE: Didn't you eat his wife's shoe?
CARLSON: Well, I did, in fact.
(LAUGHTER) CARLSON: And he did a Gray Davis event yesterday. And at that event was newly paroled accused murderer Robert Blake, cheering on Bill Clinton and Gray Davis. What do you think about Davis and Clinton appeals to Robert Blake?
MCAULIFFE: I don't know who -- there were thousands of people at the event yesterday. I can't tell you who was there, who wasn't there.
I think it's great President Clinton is out there campaigning for Gray Davis. I think it's exciting. You seem always to be obsessed by Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That guy will not be quiet and go away. He should go in for retirement like every other former president.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm not obsessed. He throws himself into the public eye. Please, leave us alone.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Before we go to break, we're going to let the members of our audience do something that Californians can't do, vote. Take out your voting devices and tell us: Are you happy the California recall has been delayed? Press one for, yes, you have a mean streak and want to see the misery prolonged, so you're happy the recall may be delayed and Gray Davis remains in office. Press two for, no, you, like Mother Teresa, have compassion. You want to see California rescued from its current condition.
We'll have the results when we return.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back it CROSSFIRE.
We're talking politics -- and there's plenty of that to talk about -- with the chairmen of both major political parties, Democratic National Committee Chairmen Terry McAuliffe and Republican National Committee Chairmen Ed Gillespie.
Before the break, we asked our audience: Are you happy with the California recall and the fact it may be delayed? And here are the results. Yes, say 29 percent of Republicans. Yes, say 67 percents of Democrats, and then essentially the flip on the other side.
GILLESPIE: What's the weighting? What's the weighting?
CARVILLE: Never let it be said that just America is divided. The CROSSFIRE audience is divided also.
CARLSON: Now, Terry McAuliffe, America is divided, as you're fully aware more than most people, but, in no small part due to the efforts of Democrats.
Dick Gephardt, running for president, described this president as -- quote -- "a miserable failure." John Edwards called him an absolute phony. Dennis Kucinich called him a liar. John Kerry compared him to Saddam Hussein. Howard Dean may have compared him to the Taliban, depending on how you read it. Why the name-calling? Why the rhetoric like this? Why not just say, we disagree with his policies? Why do you have go that low?
MCAULIFFE: I think everybody disagrees with this president's policies. Our candidates are out there. They disagree violently with where George Bush is on so many of these different issues.
CARLSON: But these are personal attacks, failure, phony, liar. Why?
MCAULIFFE: As I've said consistently, the Republican Party's history has been of negative attacks. This is the party that we saw brought us Willie Horton, attacks on Tom Daschle, comparing -- doing ads with pictures of Osama bin Laden.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Just to sort of remind you.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: That was one the most racist ads in the history of politics.
CARLSON: There was nothing racist about it. That's a lie. And you shouldn't say that.
MCAULIFFE: It isn't a lie.
GILLESPIE: Wait a second, though. Let's also remember something else.
It was not the Republican Party that ran the Willie Horton ad. It was Al Gore who first introduced it into the debate when he was running in the primary against Dukakis. And it was a third-party group. It was not the Bush administration and it was not the Republican Party that ran the ad.
MCAULIFFE: Well, first of all, I disagree. First of all, they ran focus groups on Willie Horton.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So to call a rapist a rapist is a racist? Please.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: This president went around the country doing press conferences attacking Willie Horton. These were racist ads comparing Tom Daschle to Osama bin Laden, attacking Max Cleland.
CARLSON: What's that got
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. I'm losing track.
CARVILLE: We can settle this.
I have here, Mr. Gillespie, an IOU to the RNC for $1,000. Now, I say George W. Bush has trouble with the truth. You say he doesn't. I want to show you a clip of President Bush saying something here. Can we run that, please?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I remember campaigning in Chicago. And one of the reporters said, would you ever deficit-spend? I said only, only, in times of war, in times of economic insecurity as a result of a recession, or in times of national emergency. Never did I dream we'd have a trifecta.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Mr. Gillespie, if the Republican National Committee can provide me with proof that the president said that during the campaign, I will give you, to the Republican National Committee, a check for $1,000, because what that man stood up there and said was just a bald-faced lie.
GILLESPIE: I don't agree with that, James. I was on the campaign.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: OK.
GILLESPIE: I was on the campaign. We always made that point.
And the point is, it's in state constitutions, where they have constitutional amendments that say that.
CARVILLE: Show me the proof of him -- show me the tape of him during the campaign saying that. Now, you know who said that during the campaign, don't you?
GILLESPIE: President Bush. Who else?
CARVILLE: No. Al Gore. Al Gore. Again, all you have to do is provide me with independent proof that President Bush said that on the campaign trail and I will provide you out of my own pocket with $1,000.
MCAULIFFE: Let's make it two grand.
CARVILLE: Two grand. You get in on this action.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're almost out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
MCAULIFFE: ... chicken, come on.
GILLESPIE: Let's accept the fact...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: This is so insane, I can't participate.
(LAUGHTER)
GILLESPIE: The president is exactly right, James. We were hit with a recession. We were hit with a war. And we were hit with the...
CARVILLE: Who said that on the campaign trail?
GILLESPIE: That was the position on the campaign.
CARVILLE: No, he said he said it. If he's a truthful man -- But he never said it.
GILLESPIE: I worked on the campaign. That was the position from the outset.
CARLSON: Can I bring us back to 2003?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We only have 30 seconds left.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Terry McAuliffe, I want to talk about this race. Obviously, those of us who support...
MCAULIFFE: '04.
CARLSON: '04.
Those of us who support Howard Dean are sad to watch his destruction, basically setting himself on fire every time he talks. Can you pledge to us here -- in the 10 seconds we have left -- that you'll help him, help him not talk too much and be thereby destroy his chances of becoming the nominee?
MCAULIFFE: I love all nine equally. Any one of the nine are going to beat George Bush.
Tucker, I'll put a bet on you today. You and me will make some news. I will bet. You bet for the Democratic nominee. I'll even vote for George Bush if he can get those three million people their job back that lost it since he's been president, we're back into surplus spending, and 40 million Americans have good health insurance. You and I bet.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't know what the bet is, but I'll bet you.
Ed Gillespie, thanks so much. Terry McAuliffe, we appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll sign this and give it to Mr. Gillespie if he can prove Bush is not a liar.
CARLSON: In just a minute, we'll tell our viewers you can fire back at us. And they will. One of them has had enough about a certain noncandidate.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time for our own experiment in radical populism. We call it "Fireback." We throw open the gates and let your opinions come streaming in. And, boy, do they.
First up from the e-mail bag is Will Schwarz of Richmond, California, who writes: "The voting machines that were good enough just one year ago to elect Mr. Davis are now not good enough to recall him?"
That's an excellent question.
CARVILLE: There we go. I think the primary basis of this was taken from Bush vs. Gore in 2000, kind of like, you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
"I wonder if Arnold will accept the appellate court decision as 'Total Recall' of the election or do the Bush maneuver and go to the Supreme Court for a 5-4 decision to disenfranchise 44 percent of the voters so he can win" -- Joe Margraff, Saint Louis, Missouri.
CARLSON: James, we said at the beginning of our show there would be no math. And so I'm not going to even attempt to understand that. But I do think, if he's not elected governor, in a way, it will spare us the endless movie-title puns. You know what I mean?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I got you.
CARLSON: Robby Grant from Atlanta writes: "CNN's continuing coverage of General Wesley Clark's breathing patterns is making me long for coverage of more fascinating issues, such as James Carville's next hairstyle."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We have been fairly vigilant in covering every little thing about General Wesley Clark, I must say. When he talks about, possibly, he could be a Democrat, when he talks about, "Tomorrow, I'm going to announce; I may be thinking about becoming a Democrat, we're there.
CARVILLE: "Thank you God for judges that have some brains. This is Florida all over again. Bill Clinton has done it again. His mere presence has brought some sanity to this mess" -- Marvin Higgins, New York City, New York.
Well, you ought to give Clinton credit for a lot, but I don't about
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes. When I think chaotic situations, who brings order? Bill Clinton. Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
