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CNN Crossfire
Schwarzenegger Ready For Prime Time?
Aired September 24, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The legal clouds have lifted. The October election is looming. We'll put tonight's big recall debate in the CROSSFIRE. Is Arnold Schwarzenegger ready for prime time? -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
It is D-day for Arnold Schwarzenegger. And that D stands for debate, or quite possibly, in the eyes of some doubtful critics, maybe doomsday for Mr. Schwarzenegger. Tonight, he will finally face his four top rivals in the race for California governor. But because he had the questions ahead of time, it's a pretty good bet he'll look just about as robotic as he did in "The Terminator."
We'll put tonight's recall in the CROSSFIRE just momentarily with a couple of great guests. But first, the best little political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The viceroy of Iraq, Ambassador Paul Bremer, was on Capitol Hill today seeking support for President Bush's $87 billion spending bill to pay for the occupation and rebuilding of Iraq. Bremer quipped that, with Hurricane Isabel knocking out power in parts of Washington, he was looking forward to returning to Baghdad, where the power is more reliable.
Now, why does Baghdad have better electricity than Washington? Hmm. Well, I can think of 87 billion reasons why, Mr. Ambassador. Guess what? Iraq has a better economic plan, too. Why doesn't President Bush just give Iraq tax cuts for the rich and be done with it? I'll tell you what Baghdad doesn't have that Washington could stand to lose. And that is a right-wing elite Republican Guard. So let's make Washington more like Baghdad.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: There's no reason to compare your political opponents to the Republican Guard.
But beyond that, make up your mind.
BEGALA: A joke.
CARLSON: Make up your, Paul. Is Iraq, the rebuilding of it, a disaster, or is it, as you just implied, a success? I can't keep track with the Democratic position on this from day to day. Is it going well?
BEGALA: It's a success for Halliburton, which is ripping us off with no-bid contracts.
CARLSON: No, come on. For real.
BEGALA: But, no, it's a disaster for the American taxpayers, who are having to foot the bill.
CARLSON: That may be true.
BEGALA: We should be investing in our own country as well.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... in Iraq? Is it a success for the Iraqi people or not, do you
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I don't care about the Iraqi people as much as I care about the American people, Tucker.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, but it's not either/or. It's not either/or. And you can't argue both simultaneously.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: When this guy is snottily laughing at us in Washington for lacking power, then taking our money and spending it over there, it annoys me.
CARLSON: Well, I think he was joking, but who knows.
"When nine candidates have been running for a party's presidential nomination for nearly a year and a 10th candidate jumps in with widespread support from party leaders and the public, it is a rebuke. It's a message that none of the nine candidates has measured up" -- end quote. That was William Saletan's take on General Wesley Clark in Slate.com this morning, well worth reading.
Soon, Democratic Party leaders may be looking for an 11th candidate. Consider the assessment of fellow retired General Hugh Shelton. He is the retired general of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Asked recently about General Wesley Clark, this is what General Shelton said -- quote -- "I've known Wes for a long time. I will tell you, the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say, Wes won't get my vote." Ouch.
It could be time for Hillary Clinton to come to the rescue. And I hope she does. Paul, I hope your party finds a candidate people can get behind. This whole thing is sad. You should have picked John Kerry. He is at least a serious person. Running around with Wesley Clark and Howard Dean and all these people who aren't going to be president, it's sad.
BEGALA: Is that right? You feel bad for us?
CARLSON: Yes. I do. Honestly, I really do. I'm not just saying that.
BEGALA: Oh, I know. Oh, I can tell it's sincere. I can feel the love.
CARLSON: It's oozing. It's oozing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Here's the thing. You're going to have a lot of retired generals. And I greatly admire General Shelton. But you'll have a lot of retired generals sniping at Wes Clark, because he was not a traditional general.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: And I think it's a good thing that maybe some of the brass in the Pentagon didn't like him. Maybe it's a sign he was doing a good job.
CARLSON: We'll find out.
BEGALA: Well, the good people of Alabama recently voted down Republican Governor Bob Riley's proposal to raise taxes on the rich and big corporations and cut them for the poor. So without the extra money to fund state government, Governor Riley has proposed a few budget cuts, nothing too drastic, except for the thousands of inmates who will be released from prison, and the children knocked off of kidney dialysis, and curtailing state troopers' patrols.
But it's all worth it to protect the rich from paying their fair of taxes in Alabama. Still, one group praised the new budget, the American Association of Carjackers, which told CROSSFIRE it would be moving its headquarters to Alabama -- quote -- "where the carjacking's easy, the prisons are empty, and the taxes are low." So there's some good coming out of this.
CARLSON: You know what, though? I actually supported Governor Riley. I don't support tax increases very often, but this one seemed like a reasonable one. In "The New Republic," Peter Beinart, the editor, wrote an amazing column a couple of weeks ago in which he pointed out that the NAACP and the rest of the corrupt civil rights establishments did -- truly -- did not support Governor Riley.
Why? Because he was a Republican. Even though his plan would have helped black voters in Alabama immeasurably, they didn't support him for partisan reasons. It's disgusting and they ought to be ashamed. Their support might have made a difference.
BEGALA: Well, I'll tell you. Your support could have made a difference. I endorsed it on this program. We talked about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, so did I. I thought, actually, it made sense. Their tax system in Alabama does sound unfair to me.
BEGALA: It is ridiculously unfair. And I thought that, even though he's a Republican, he did the right thing. And now we're living with less government. You want limited government? Move to Alabama, no state troopers, empty prisons, poor education.
CARLSON: Well, they could probably find something else to cut.
Score one for the most hated and lampooned profession on Earth, telemarketers. A federal judge in Oklahoma City ruled today that Federal Trade Commission overstepped its authority in creating a do- not-call registry that would prevent telemarketers from reaching out and touching the 50 million people who had submitted their numbers to that list.
The ruling comes as a crushing defeat for millions of neurotic yuppie liberals, who had argued that it was the federal government's responsibility to protect them from the trauma of having to get up from their Chianti and Chilean sea bass and answer the phone during dinner.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Too bad for them. So now, in addition to the twin horrors of secondhand smoke and Big Macs, baby boomers will have to continue to contend with the nightmare of unsolicited phone calls. Tragic. It's a scary world out there.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And that's why we need the federal government to control telemarketers.
BEGALA: This from a man, by the way, who -- one of the best essays I have read in the last five years. You wrote about telemarketers and how you scammed them. First off, they ought to buy your book. I haven't plugged your book on this show.
CARLSON: Well, thank you, Paul.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Seriously, I don't much endorse Republican books. Tucker Carlson's book is hilarious and very smart. And, in one of your earlier essays, you wrote about how you like to scam telemarketers. What did you do?
CARLSON: But, see, I can torture them myself. I don't need the federal government to protect me from them.
BEGALA: So you just want -- you don't want to lose the foil of having some poor, minimum-wage person that you can beat up on when they call during dinner.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: I actually like them. I want the government to protect me from al Qaeda. I can beat up on the telemarketers on my own.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: In California, it's debate night. All eyes will be on Arnold Schwarzenegger to see if he has learned his lines. The other candidates, of course, will attempt to force Schwarzenegger into a costly ad lib. Can you even imagine?
Two of our favorite California political experts, San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and Congressman David Dreier, join us next to debate the debate.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Tonight's recall debate in California should be a familiar place for Arnold Schwarzenegger. After all, he'll be in front of the cameras. He'll speak right on cue. And his lines will all be memorized. Considering that California voters have only 13 days left to decide who should run your state, some people are arguing that maybe the actor-turned-politician ought to be forced to audition without a script, or perhaps even show up without a stunt double.
We'll put that question now into the CROSSFIRE with two of my favorite California politicos, first San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown, a great Democrat up there in the Bay area, and California Congressman and House Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier, who joins us from Capitol Hill.
(APPLAUSE)
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: A reasonable Republican.
BEGALA: A very reasonable Republican.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, thanks for joining us.
You have argued, like many Democrats, that the recall itself is immoral and undemocratic. And yet last month, just last month, you told ABCNews.com that, if the recall is successful and Gray Davis is bounced out, that you and other Democrats will announce a counter- recall. You said you will do it enthusiastically. "I think the Democrats will do it," you said -- end quote.
So if it's immoral and undemocratic, why would you do it?
WILLIE BROWN (D), SAN FRANCISCO MAYOR: Well, I think it has now become a tool that will be available for anybody's use.
And, by the way, I did not say that I would do that. I don't have Darrell Issa's money, nor do I have the desire to engage in that kind of nonsense. I do think that there are political types...
CARLSON: That's not what you said
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I do think there are political types who will jump in and in fact, not only with reference to the governorship, but already we see in California a proliferation of recalls. Up in Rohnert Park, they're talking about recalling the entire city council because of some casino.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, I hate to cut you off, but...
BROWN: Yes.
CARLSON: I just want to confront you with yourself for a minute. You say to ABC News -- and I'm quoting -- "If it works for Republicans, all you've got to do is raise enough money. I have enough money to make it work for Democrats." So that sounds kind of
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: That doesn't mean that I'm going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I don't have time to do that. That would make no sense at all, if you really believe recalls should not be a part of the political process. And I genuinely believe recalls should not be a part of the process, except where it might be the substitute for impeachment.
If you bring a bill of particulars and you do all the things you do under impeachment, then you can proceed with recall. And there ought to be a separate election for replacement. And that separate election ought to be the same as regular elections.
BEGALA: Now, Congressman Dreier, I don't think recalls should be part of recalls either. But debates should be. And I think we all agree on that.
Now, I'm going to give you an opportunity to do what handlers do and advisers do and supporters do before a debate, right? Arnold Schwarzenegger is a terribly bright guy. He's spent more time in front of the camera than every other one of his competitors combined, except the porno star.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And he's going to do fine tonight. He's a poised and bright man. Why are his supporters pretending that he can't debate?
DREIER: Let me first, Paul, say that -- and I know we're supposed to only talk about California -- but on your "Political Alert," you talked about Iraq. And you don't mind. I'm in the capital. I need to talk about international policy occasionally. You were right in talking about Iraq's economic policy being better than ours. The top tax rate in Iraq is now 15 percent. I just want you to know that. They're doing it to encourage economy growth and get the economy going. Now, having said -- having said that...
BEGALA: We can have a show on tax cuts for rich Iraqis, Congressman.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: I had to respond to your "Political Alert."
And let me just say, Arnold, this is the first time that he's run for office. And this is the first time that he has engaged in this type of debate. We all know that. But, having said that, I will tell you that he is going to do extremely well. He is eager and enthusiastic about the prospect of debating. He's looking forward to having this exchange.
And he has been debating, Paul, every single day. He's been out there with his Ask Arnold program, taking spontaneous questions. He's appeared on numerous television and radio programs, taking tough questions from people, without any kinds of guidelines whatsoever.
And you raise this issue about scripts. And we quip about that. Tell me what candidate does not spend time preparing or anticipating questions and planning the response to that. Every single candidate does it. We know that all the candidates have done that for tonight. And the other candidates have done it in past elections as well.
BEGALA: So anything less than boffo is a disaster for Arnold. David Dreier and I agree.
DREIER: He's going to do really well. He's going to do really well.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor -- Mr. Mayor, Proposition 34, California's Proposition 34, as I understand it, limits political contributions to candidates to $21,000. And yet Cruz Bustamante, the Democratic lieutenant governor, as you know, took $1.5 million from Indian gambling interests. He was ordered to return that money and $2.5 million more to the people who gave it to him. But he says he doesn't have the money. He's clearly broken campaign finance regulations here. Will he ever be held to account for what he's done wrong, do you think?
BROWN: Well, first and foremost, he hasn't broken any rules or regulations as it relates to finance. Prop 34 was put in place by the people of this state. It authorized old expenditures and old accounts.
Cruz Bustamante employed that. It became something of a political problem for him. He took care of it quickly by having that money go to Prop 54, so that in fact we could defeat that anti- affirmative action measure.
Let me tell you on Arnold Schwarzenegger, don't forget, the questions have been given. And when David says, we all prepare, we all get briefed, yes, we do. But we don't get the questions. You get the questions in advance...
DREIER: But, Willie...
BROWN: ... normally, you're thrown out of law school or you're thrown out of wherever. I have never received any questions in advance on any time that I have appeared anyplace, and particularly on CROSSFIRE.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Willie, let me tell you, I was the first one -- we anticipate every question, because we know what Begala is thinking all the time.
But I tell you that we -- I was the first one with the privilege of representing Arnold on this to request to the California Broadcasters Association that they not provide the questions in advance. They made the decision.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, I'm glad you did that, David, because I would have been disappointed. You're bright enough and able enough to move the numbers the way you should. And that's what people need to see.
DREIER: Well, Willie -- Willie, let me -- Willie, let me tell you that this is a plan that they put into effect in March of this year, long before the recall was even qualified for the ballot.
This is a decision the California Broadcasters made. But, having said that, one of the honors I've had was captaining an Oxford-style debate right here on the floor of the Congress. And you know what? The question is provided in advance. And this debate is going to be -- in fact, Bob Franken earlier reported today here on CNN, the debate is going to be like CROSSFIRE. Why? Because after the one-minute response that the candidate gives to those questions, there will be an exchange among all the candidates.
So we're going to see a free-flowing debate, the likes of which we haven't seen in an awful long time. So people prepare for this debate. Everyone's going to be well prepared for this debate. But this debate is really focused on the mismanagement of Gray Davis and the threat of moving even further left with a massive $8 billion tax increase proposed by Cruz Bustamante.
BEGALA: We're going to have to go to break in a minute.
BROWN: Well, I think this debate is...
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Mayor, but I want to put this point out.
Part of Arnold's preparation, apparently, was writing an op-ed today in "The Wall Street Journal" entitled "Mein Wirtschaftskunde" (ph). In English, I guess that's "My Economics." And here's what he says. And I'm quoting from Arnold now: "We have to reduce taxes that make our state uncompetitive. We need to put teeth into a spending limit law through a constitutional amend. We need a world-class education system."
Congressman Dreier, did he pay full price for this drivel? I never read anything more vapid or vacuous in my life. Where's the beef?
DREIER: Let me just tell you, you're going to watch this debate, I know, tonight, Paul. And this is very clearly what the people of California want. They want to see jobs created.
They want to see, as Arnold likes to say, the economic engine of California moving again and to try and reduce the size and scope of government, encourage economic growth, reduce the tax burden, so that we can stimulate job creation. That's exactly what it's about, while focusing on the priority of ensuring that our children are educated. I think it's a policy that Democrats
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Gentlemen, I'm sorry to interrupt. Mr. Mayor, Congressman, we'll be right back. We're going to take a quick commercial break just to pay for this whole enterprise. And we'll be back in a second.
Up next, quick questions and answers, no scripts allowed. You won't find that in the recall debate.
Speaking of California's latest sitcom, should the candidates get the questions before the debate? We'll have the answer later in CROSSFIRE.
But next, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on possible Islamic extremists among U.S. military personnel serving at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for "Rapid Fire."
We're joined again by San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and California Congressman David Dreier.
Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry. I've just got to jump in here and get you to respond to the latest issue of "GQ" magazine, which reports that Gray Davis, governor of California, eats every meal at a restaurant called Koo Koo Roo. It's a fast-food outlet in California that serves chicken. Is he too weird to be governor?
BROWN: No, he's not too weird to be governor. The people in the state have elected him twice as governor, once as lieutenant governor, once as comptroller. This man has been before the voters in a regularly scheduled election, without any fixed questions, without any fixed answers. And not only that; he's put together the programs that responds to the needs of the people of the state of California in a very direct way.
DREIER: But Willie Brown never...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Come on?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Don't interrupt me anymore. Don't interrupt me. Don't interrupt me.
(BELL RINGING)
BROWN: Don't interrupt me. I didn't interrupt you. Don't interrupt me. If you do, we ought to send you to Iraq.
BEGALA: There we go.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Congressman Dreier, let me ask you...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Be clear on that. Be clear on that. Don't interrupt me. Don't interrupt -- I don't even know anything Koo Roo. And I want to stay on the substantive issue. Gray Davis has done the job that is required to be done. He didn't write in "The Wall Street Journal" this
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... and this nonsense.
BEGALA: Mr. Mayor, excuse me. I am interrupting you, but I want to ask Congressman Dreier this question.
Before the break, you said Arnold Schwarzenegger wants to rein in state spending. Name me one state spending program he wants to eliminate.
DREIER: You are going to watch the debate tonight. And that is when we're going to hear specifics, because that's one of the questions, as we all know, that has been posed to those who are running for governor.
BROWN: David, you're very optimistic. I don't think Arnold will answer any of those questions.
When you finally have the job, and you have to say yes or no to health, yes or no to a child care center, yes or no to kindergarten, yes or no to after-school programs, yes or no to what needs to be done to improve the policies
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We've only got a few moments. I'm sorry again, guys, to cut you off. I know it's harder to do by satellite.
But we've ignored the biggest issue in Washington and how it affects the California recall. And that is, it's passe. It's yesterday's news for an actor to become a politician. We now have a prominent politician here in Washington with a star turn on "K Street," the new HBO hit show. His name is David Dreier.
Our audience at home is going to a look at your scene here, Congressman Dreier. There you are in the back of a limo, where you seem remarkably comfortable.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Are you going to leave politics to become an actor?
DREIER: Did you see the bumper sticker on the back window?
BEGALA: Are you going to do a reverse Arnold Schwarzenegger, Congressman, and become an actor some time?
DREIER: Something like that. Whatever you all say. I'm just trying to join you on that show, Paul.
BEGALA: You were terrific. The camera loves you. I think you should leave Washington, let the Democrats run this place, and go home and make movies in California.
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: All right.
BEGALA: You'd be outstanding.
DREIER: Wishful thinking on your part. Wishful thinking on your part, Paul. I ain't leaving you.
BEGALA: David Dreier, thank you. David Dreier, Republican from California's congressional delegation, and Willie Brown, the esteemed mayor of San Francisco, guys, thank you both very much.
BROWN: Thank you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Up next, we will find out whether our audience here in the studio thinks that California's candidates for governors ought to get the debate questions before the debate. And then you can judge for yourself how the candidates stack up.
CNN, of course, will provide live coverage of tonight's California recall debate starting at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. That is 6:00 in California. In case you're new, it's the big hand on the 12:00, the little hand on the 6:00, California. Tune in. Thanks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time for "Fireback." But, first, the results of our audience poll. Should the candidates in tonight's California recall debate get the questions before the debate? Kind of a sad question. Yes, say 21 percent of Republicans. Only 5 percent of Democrats agree. No on the flip side. Who are the 21 percent of Republicans who think they ought to get the questions beforehand?
BEGALA: The guys that are cheating on their exams here at George Washington, I think.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: We know exactly who you are. And your moms and dads are watching, students.
Here's Sally in Chevy Chase, Maryland, named after a famous comedian: "Representative Issa is urging one of the Republicans to get out of the governor's race because he now thinks he would prefer Gray Davis to Bustamante. Doesn't that validate the Democrats' contention that the whole recall movement is about removing Democrats from office in elections that they won fair and square?"
Good point.
CARLSON: OK, but I thought the voting machines were unfair and disenfranchised people. So I guess it wasn't a fair-and-square election.
BEGALA: That's what the Supreme Court said for Bush, but not for the Democrats.
CARLSON: "The recall is a freak show," says Joan Vaughn of Blachly, Oregon. "A steroid king, midgets and a porn queen."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: "McClintock is the only normal Republican. And they want him to drop out? Go figure."
I agree with every word of that, I have to say.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Which is which? Who is which?
CARLSON: I think Arnold is the steroid king.
BEGALA: Gary Coleman is the
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Oh, no, wait.
CARLSON: Right. He's not the porn queen.
BEGALA: He's not.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Right. And that's a good point.
BEGALA: Now, why is the porn queen not in the debate?
CARLSON: That's an excellent question. You'd get better ratings
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Can we have her on CROSSFIRE, by the way?
Porn queen, whatever your name is, come here and debate on CROSSFIRE. By golly, you'll have fun.
We'll let James Carville host that night.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 24, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The legal clouds have lifted. The October election is looming. We'll put tonight's big recall debate in the CROSSFIRE. Is Arnold Schwarzenegger ready for prime time? -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
It is D-day for Arnold Schwarzenegger. And that D stands for debate, or quite possibly, in the eyes of some doubtful critics, maybe doomsday for Mr. Schwarzenegger. Tonight, he will finally face his four top rivals in the race for California governor. But because he had the questions ahead of time, it's a pretty good bet he'll look just about as robotic as he did in "The Terminator."
We'll put tonight's recall in the CROSSFIRE just momentarily with a couple of great guests. But first, the best little political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The viceroy of Iraq, Ambassador Paul Bremer, was on Capitol Hill today seeking support for President Bush's $87 billion spending bill to pay for the occupation and rebuilding of Iraq. Bremer quipped that, with Hurricane Isabel knocking out power in parts of Washington, he was looking forward to returning to Baghdad, where the power is more reliable.
Now, why does Baghdad have better electricity than Washington? Hmm. Well, I can think of 87 billion reasons why, Mr. Ambassador. Guess what? Iraq has a better economic plan, too. Why doesn't President Bush just give Iraq tax cuts for the rich and be done with it? I'll tell you what Baghdad doesn't have that Washington could stand to lose. And that is a right-wing elite Republican Guard. So let's make Washington more like Baghdad.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: There's no reason to compare your political opponents to the Republican Guard.
But beyond that, make up your mind.
BEGALA: A joke.
CARLSON: Make up your, Paul. Is Iraq, the rebuilding of it, a disaster, or is it, as you just implied, a success? I can't keep track with the Democratic position on this from day to day. Is it going well?
BEGALA: It's a success for Halliburton, which is ripping us off with no-bid contracts.
CARLSON: No, come on. For real.
BEGALA: But, no, it's a disaster for the American taxpayers, who are having to foot the bill.
CARLSON: That may be true.
BEGALA: We should be investing in our own country as well.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... in Iraq? Is it a success for the Iraqi people or not, do you
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I don't care about the Iraqi people as much as I care about the American people, Tucker.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, but it's not either/or. It's not either/or. And you can't argue both simultaneously.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: When this guy is snottily laughing at us in Washington for lacking power, then taking our money and spending it over there, it annoys me.
CARLSON: Well, I think he was joking, but who knows.
"When nine candidates have been running for a party's presidential nomination for nearly a year and a 10th candidate jumps in with widespread support from party leaders and the public, it is a rebuke. It's a message that none of the nine candidates has measured up" -- end quote. That was William Saletan's take on General Wesley Clark in Slate.com this morning, well worth reading.
Soon, Democratic Party leaders may be looking for an 11th candidate. Consider the assessment of fellow retired General Hugh Shelton. He is the retired general of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Asked recently about General Wesley Clark, this is what General Shelton said -- quote -- "I've known Wes for a long time. I will tell you, the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say, Wes won't get my vote." Ouch.
It could be time for Hillary Clinton to come to the rescue. And I hope she does. Paul, I hope your party finds a candidate people can get behind. This whole thing is sad. You should have picked John Kerry. He is at least a serious person. Running around with Wesley Clark and Howard Dean and all these people who aren't going to be president, it's sad.
BEGALA: Is that right? You feel bad for us?
CARLSON: Yes. I do. Honestly, I really do. I'm not just saying that.
BEGALA: Oh, I know. Oh, I can tell it's sincere. I can feel the love.
CARLSON: It's oozing. It's oozing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Here's the thing. You're going to have a lot of retired generals. And I greatly admire General Shelton. But you'll have a lot of retired generals sniping at Wes Clark, because he was not a traditional general.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: And I think it's a good thing that maybe some of the brass in the Pentagon didn't like him. Maybe it's a sign he was doing a good job.
CARLSON: We'll find out.
BEGALA: Well, the good people of Alabama recently voted down Republican Governor Bob Riley's proposal to raise taxes on the rich and big corporations and cut them for the poor. So without the extra money to fund state government, Governor Riley has proposed a few budget cuts, nothing too drastic, except for the thousands of inmates who will be released from prison, and the children knocked off of kidney dialysis, and curtailing state troopers' patrols.
But it's all worth it to protect the rich from paying their fair of taxes in Alabama. Still, one group praised the new budget, the American Association of Carjackers, which told CROSSFIRE it would be moving its headquarters to Alabama -- quote -- "where the carjacking's easy, the prisons are empty, and the taxes are low." So there's some good coming out of this.
CARLSON: You know what, though? I actually supported Governor Riley. I don't support tax increases very often, but this one seemed like a reasonable one. In "The New Republic," Peter Beinart, the editor, wrote an amazing column a couple of weeks ago in which he pointed out that the NAACP and the rest of the corrupt civil rights establishments did -- truly -- did not support Governor Riley.
Why? Because he was a Republican. Even though his plan would have helped black voters in Alabama immeasurably, they didn't support him for partisan reasons. It's disgusting and they ought to be ashamed. Their support might have made a difference.
BEGALA: Well, I'll tell you. Your support could have made a difference. I endorsed it on this program. We talked about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, so did I. I thought, actually, it made sense. Their tax system in Alabama does sound unfair to me.
BEGALA: It is ridiculously unfair. And I thought that, even though he's a Republican, he did the right thing. And now we're living with less government. You want limited government? Move to Alabama, no state troopers, empty prisons, poor education.
CARLSON: Well, they could probably find something else to cut.
Score one for the most hated and lampooned profession on Earth, telemarketers. A federal judge in Oklahoma City ruled today that Federal Trade Commission overstepped its authority in creating a do- not-call registry that would prevent telemarketers from reaching out and touching the 50 million people who had submitted their numbers to that list.
The ruling comes as a crushing defeat for millions of neurotic yuppie liberals, who had argued that it was the federal government's responsibility to protect them from the trauma of having to get up from their Chianti and Chilean sea bass and answer the phone during dinner.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Too bad for them. So now, in addition to the twin horrors of secondhand smoke and Big Macs, baby boomers will have to continue to contend with the nightmare of unsolicited phone calls. Tragic. It's a scary world out there.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And that's why we need the federal government to control telemarketers.
BEGALA: This from a man, by the way, who -- one of the best essays I have read in the last five years. You wrote about telemarketers and how you scammed them. First off, they ought to buy your book. I haven't plugged your book on this show.
CARLSON: Well, thank you, Paul.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Seriously, I don't much endorse Republican books. Tucker Carlson's book is hilarious and very smart. And, in one of your earlier essays, you wrote about how you like to scam telemarketers. What did you do?
CARLSON: But, see, I can torture them myself. I don't need the federal government to protect me from them.
BEGALA: So you just want -- you don't want to lose the foil of having some poor, minimum-wage person that you can beat up on when they call during dinner.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: I actually like them. I want the government to protect me from al Qaeda. I can beat up on the telemarketers on my own.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: In California, it's debate night. All eyes will be on Arnold Schwarzenegger to see if he has learned his lines. The other candidates, of course, will attempt to force Schwarzenegger into a costly ad lib. Can you even imagine?
Two of our favorite California political experts, San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and Congressman David Dreier, join us next to debate the debate.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Tonight's recall debate in California should be a familiar place for Arnold Schwarzenegger. After all, he'll be in front of the cameras. He'll speak right on cue. And his lines will all be memorized. Considering that California voters have only 13 days left to decide who should run your state, some people are arguing that maybe the actor-turned-politician ought to be forced to audition without a script, or perhaps even show up without a stunt double.
We'll put that question now into the CROSSFIRE with two of my favorite California politicos, first San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown, a great Democrat up there in the Bay area, and California Congressman and House Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier, who joins us from Capitol Hill.
(APPLAUSE)
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: A reasonable Republican.
BEGALA: A very reasonable Republican.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, thanks for joining us.
You have argued, like many Democrats, that the recall itself is immoral and undemocratic. And yet last month, just last month, you told ABCNews.com that, if the recall is successful and Gray Davis is bounced out, that you and other Democrats will announce a counter- recall. You said you will do it enthusiastically. "I think the Democrats will do it," you said -- end quote.
So if it's immoral and undemocratic, why would you do it?
WILLIE BROWN (D), SAN FRANCISCO MAYOR: Well, I think it has now become a tool that will be available for anybody's use.
And, by the way, I did not say that I would do that. I don't have Darrell Issa's money, nor do I have the desire to engage in that kind of nonsense. I do think that there are political types...
CARLSON: That's not what you said
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I do think there are political types who will jump in and in fact, not only with reference to the governorship, but already we see in California a proliferation of recalls. Up in Rohnert Park, they're talking about recalling the entire city council because of some casino.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor, I hate to cut you off, but...
BROWN: Yes.
CARLSON: I just want to confront you with yourself for a minute. You say to ABC News -- and I'm quoting -- "If it works for Republicans, all you've got to do is raise enough money. I have enough money to make it work for Democrats." So that sounds kind of
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: That doesn't mean that I'm going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I don't have time to do that. That would make no sense at all, if you really believe recalls should not be a part of the political process. And I genuinely believe recalls should not be a part of the process, except where it might be the substitute for impeachment.
If you bring a bill of particulars and you do all the things you do under impeachment, then you can proceed with recall. And there ought to be a separate election for replacement. And that separate election ought to be the same as regular elections.
BEGALA: Now, Congressman Dreier, I don't think recalls should be part of recalls either. But debates should be. And I think we all agree on that.
Now, I'm going to give you an opportunity to do what handlers do and advisers do and supporters do before a debate, right? Arnold Schwarzenegger is a terribly bright guy. He's spent more time in front of the camera than every other one of his competitors combined, except the porno star.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And he's going to do fine tonight. He's a poised and bright man. Why are his supporters pretending that he can't debate?
DREIER: Let me first, Paul, say that -- and I know we're supposed to only talk about California -- but on your "Political Alert," you talked about Iraq. And you don't mind. I'm in the capital. I need to talk about international policy occasionally. You were right in talking about Iraq's economic policy being better than ours. The top tax rate in Iraq is now 15 percent. I just want you to know that. They're doing it to encourage economy growth and get the economy going. Now, having said -- having said that...
BEGALA: We can have a show on tax cuts for rich Iraqis, Congressman.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: I had to respond to your "Political Alert."
And let me just say, Arnold, this is the first time that he's run for office. And this is the first time that he has engaged in this type of debate. We all know that. But, having said that, I will tell you that he is going to do extremely well. He is eager and enthusiastic about the prospect of debating. He's looking forward to having this exchange.
And he has been debating, Paul, every single day. He's been out there with his Ask Arnold program, taking spontaneous questions. He's appeared on numerous television and radio programs, taking tough questions from people, without any kinds of guidelines whatsoever.
And you raise this issue about scripts. And we quip about that. Tell me what candidate does not spend time preparing or anticipating questions and planning the response to that. Every single candidate does it. We know that all the candidates have done that for tonight. And the other candidates have done it in past elections as well.
BEGALA: So anything less than boffo is a disaster for Arnold. David Dreier and I agree.
DREIER: He's going to do really well. He's going to do really well.
CARLSON: Mr. Mayor -- Mr. Mayor, Proposition 34, California's Proposition 34, as I understand it, limits political contributions to candidates to $21,000. And yet Cruz Bustamante, the Democratic lieutenant governor, as you know, took $1.5 million from Indian gambling interests. He was ordered to return that money and $2.5 million more to the people who gave it to him. But he says he doesn't have the money. He's clearly broken campaign finance regulations here. Will he ever be held to account for what he's done wrong, do you think?
BROWN: Well, first and foremost, he hasn't broken any rules or regulations as it relates to finance. Prop 34 was put in place by the people of this state. It authorized old expenditures and old accounts.
Cruz Bustamante employed that. It became something of a political problem for him. He took care of it quickly by having that money go to Prop 54, so that in fact we could defeat that anti- affirmative action measure.
Let me tell you on Arnold Schwarzenegger, don't forget, the questions have been given. And when David says, we all prepare, we all get briefed, yes, we do. But we don't get the questions. You get the questions in advance...
DREIER: But, Willie...
BROWN: ... normally, you're thrown out of law school or you're thrown out of wherever. I have never received any questions in advance on any time that I have appeared anyplace, and particularly on CROSSFIRE.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: Willie, let me tell you, I was the first one -- we anticipate every question, because we know what Begala is thinking all the time.
But I tell you that we -- I was the first one with the privilege of representing Arnold on this to request to the California Broadcasters Association that they not provide the questions in advance. They made the decision.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, I'm glad you did that, David, because I would have been disappointed. You're bright enough and able enough to move the numbers the way you should. And that's what people need to see.
DREIER: Well, Willie -- Willie, let me -- Willie, let me tell you that this is a plan that they put into effect in March of this year, long before the recall was even qualified for the ballot.
This is a decision the California Broadcasters made. But, having said that, one of the honors I've had was captaining an Oxford-style debate right here on the floor of the Congress. And you know what? The question is provided in advance. And this debate is going to be -- in fact, Bob Franken earlier reported today here on CNN, the debate is going to be like CROSSFIRE. Why? Because after the one-minute response that the candidate gives to those questions, there will be an exchange among all the candidates.
So we're going to see a free-flowing debate, the likes of which we haven't seen in an awful long time. So people prepare for this debate. Everyone's going to be well prepared for this debate. But this debate is really focused on the mismanagement of Gray Davis and the threat of moving even further left with a massive $8 billion tax increase proposed by Cruz Bustamante.
BEGALA: We're going to have to go to break in a minute.
BROWN: Well, I think this debate is...
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Mayor, but I want to put this point out.
Part of Arnold's preparation, apparently, was writing an op-ed today in "The Wall Street Journal" entitled "Mein Wirtschaftskunde" (ph). In English, I guess that's "My Economics." And here's what he says. And I'm quoting from Arnold now: "We have to reduce taxes that make our state uncompetitive. We need to put teeth into a spending limit law through a constitutional amend. We need a world-class education system."
Congressman Dreier, did he pay full price for this drivel? I never read anything more vapid or vacuous in my life. Where's the beef?
DREIER: Let me just tell you, you're going to watch this debate, I know, tonight, Paul. And this is very clearly what the people of California want. They want to see jobs created.
They want to see, as Arnold likes to say, the economic engine of California moving again and to try and reduce the size and scope of government, encourage economic growth, reduce the tax burden, so that we can stimulate job creation. That's exactly what it's about, while focusing on the priority of ensuring that our children are educated. I think it's a policy that Democrats
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Gentlemen, I'm sorry to interrupt. Mr. Mayor, Congressman, we'll be right back. We're going to take a quick commercial break just to pay for this whole enterprise. And we'll be back in a second.
Up next, quick questions and answers, no scripts allowed. You won't find that in the recall debate.
Speaking of California's latest sitcom, should the candidates get the questions before the debate? We'll have the answer later in CROSSFIRE.
But next, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on possible Islamic extremists among U.S. military personnel serving at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for "Rapid Fire."
We're joined again by San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and California Congressman David Dreier.
Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry. I've just got to jump in here and get you to respond to the latest issue of "GQ" magazine, which reports that Gray Davis, governor of California, eats every meal at a restaurant called Koo Koo Roo. It's a fast-food outlet in California that serves chicken. Is he too weird to be governor?
BROWN: No, he's not too weird to be governor. The people in the state have elected him twice as governor, once as lieutenant governor, once as comptroller. This man has been before the voters in a regularly scheduled election, without any fixed questions, without any fixed answers. And not only that; he's put together the programs that responds to the needs of the people of the state of California in a very direct way.
DREIER: But Willie Brown never...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Come on?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Don't interrupt me anymore. Don't interrupt me. Don't interrupt me.
(BELL RINGING)
BROWN: Don't interrupt me. I didn't interrupt you. Don't interrupt me. If you do, we ought to send you to Iraq.
BEGALA: There we go.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Congressman Dreier, let me ask you...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Be clear on that. Be clear on that. Don't interrupt me. Don't interrupt -- I don't even know anything Koo Roo. And I want to stay on the substantive issue. Gray Davis has done the job that is required to be done. He didn't write in "The Wall Street Journal" this
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... and this nonsense.
BEGALA: Mr. Mayor, excuse me. I am interrupting you, but I want to ask Congressman Dreier this question.
Before the break, you said Arnold Schwarzenegger wants to rein in state spending. Name me one state spending program he wants to eliminate.
DREIER: You are going to watch the debate tonight. And that is when we're going to hear specifics, because that's one of the questions, as we all know, that has been posed to those who are running for governor.
BROWN: David, you're very optimistic. I don't think Arnold will answer any of those questions.
When you finally have the job, and you have to say yes or no to health, yes or no to a child care center, yes or no to kindergarten, yes or no to after-school programs, yes or no to what needs to be done to improve the policies
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We've only got a few moments. I'm sorry again, guys, to cut you off. I know it's harder to do by satellite.
But we've ignored the biggest issue in Washington and how it affects the California recall. And that is, it's passe. It's yesterday's news for an actor to become a politician. We now have a prominent politician here in Washington with a star turn on "K Street," the new HBO hit show. His name is David Dreier.
Our audience at home is going to a look at your scene here, Congressman Dreier. There you are in the back of a limo, where you seem remarkably comfortable.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Are you going to leave politics to become an actor?
DREIER: Did you see the bumper sticker on the back window?
BEGALA: Are you going to do a reverse Arnold Schwarzenegger, Congressman, and become an actor some time?
DREIER: Something like that. Whatever you all say. I'm just trying to join you on that show, Paul.
BEGALA: You were terrific. The camera loves you. I think you should leave Washington, let the Democrats run this place, and go home and make movies in California.
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: All right.
BEGALA: You'd be outstanding.
DREIER: Wishful thinking on your part. Wishful thinking on your part, Paul. I ain't leaving you.
BEGALA: David Dreier, thank you. David Dreier, Republican from California's congressional delegation, and Willie Brown, the esteemed mayor of San Francisco, guys, thank you both very much.
BROWN: Thank you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Up next, we will find out whether our audience here in the studio thinks that California's candidates for governors ought to get the debate questions before the debate. And then you can judge for yourself how the candidates stack up.
CNN, of course, will provide live coverage of tonight's California recall debate starting at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. That is 6:00 in California. In case you're new, it's the big hand on the 12:00, the little hand on the 6:00, California. Tune in. Thanks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time for "Fireback." But, first, the results of our audience poll. Should the candidates in tonight's California recall debate get the questions before the debate? Kind of a sad question. Yes, say 21 percent of Republicans. Only 5 percent of Democrats agree. No on the flip side. Who are the 21 percent of Republicans who think they ought to get the questions beforehand?
BEGALA: The guys that are cheating on their exams here at George Washington, I think.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: We know exactly who you are. And your moms and dads are watching, students.
Here's Sally in Chevy Chase, Maryland, named after a famous comedian: "Representative Issa is urging one of the Republicans to get out of the governor's race because he now thinks he would prefer Gray Davis to Bustamante. Doesn't that validate the Democrats' contention that the whole recall movement is about removing Democrats from office in elections that they won fair and square?"
Good point.
CARLSON: OK, but I thought the voting machines were unfair and disenfranchised people. So I guess it wasn't a fair-and-square election.
BEGALA: That's what the Supreme Court said for Bush, but not for the Democrats.
CARLSON: "The recall is a freak show," says Joan Vaughn of Blachly, Oregon. "A steroid king, midgets and a porn queen."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: "McClintock is the only normal Republican. And they want him to drop out? Go figure."
I agree with every word of that, I have to say.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Which is which? Who is which?
CARLSON: I think Arnold is the steroid king.
BEGALA: Gary Coleman is the
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Oh, no, wait.
CARLSON: Right. He's not the porn queen.
BEGALA: He's not.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Right. And that's a good point.
BEGALA: Now, why is the porn queen not in the debate?
CARLSON: That's an excellent question. You'd get better ratings
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Can we have her on CROSSFIRE, by the way?
Porn queen, whatever your name is, come here and debate on CROSSFIRE. By golly, you'll have fun.
We'll let James Carville host that night.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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