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CNN Crossfire
Democratic Debate Winners and Losers
Aired September 26, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The Democratic Party presidential debate club has a new member.
WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's why I'm proud to be a Democrat.
ANNOUNCER: Will this former general be able to rally the troops and capture the nomination?
Another front-runner had to come up with a defense strategy of his own.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Is flat-out false, and I'm ashamed that you would compare me with Newt Gingrich. Nobody up here deserves to be compared to Newt Gingrich.
ANNOUNCER: Who were the winners and who were the losers?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Last night, 10 Democrats showed why their party is 10 times better than the GOP. They outlined their positions. They were quick on their feet. And even in their worst moments, they were better than President Bush on a good day.
We'll put their debate in the CROSSFIRE in just a few moments. But first, the best little briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
For a long -- for a long time, many have thought that Colin Powell is the only man in the Bush administration who is capable of telling the truth. He did one time. On February 24, 2001, in Egypt, Colin Powell said -- quote -- "Frankly, the sanctions against Iraq have worked. He," Saddam Hussein," has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
Now we know for certain that the administration's case for war was a pack of lies. Powell called it from the beginning. And now the rest of us know it to be true, what Powell said in Egypt.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Now, I know, James, you are going to be tempted to shout me down, but, if you can, attempt to answer this question.
CARVILLE: Be glad to.
CARLSON: Colin Powell almost exactly two years later made precisely the opposite case to the United Nations, arguing that in fact Iraq is a threat not simply to its neighbors, but to the U.S., because it had these capabilities he claimed it did not have. Was he lying? Or did someone force him to lie, and therefore he's a weasel? Which one?
CARVILLE: B. B. He was forced to lie and, therefore, he is a weasel.
CARLSON: Then how in the world...
CARVILLE: He told the truth. He told the truth on February 24, 2001.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's your position. Colin Powell is a weasel.
CARVILLE: He's capable of truth.
CARLSON: And yet you say that he's the only man who tells the truth.
CARVILLE: A weasel is capable of the truth. I think the man told the truth on February 24.
CARLSON: Well, I think he's a decent man.
CARVILLE: I think he's a very decent man.
CARLSON: But a weasel, too.
CARVILLE: I think he would have liked to tell the truth. I think he's around people who forced him to lie. He knew full well it wasn't true. And it turned out it wasn't truth.
(APPLAUSE)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: I never knew he was a weak and contemptible liar. Interesting. I kind of like him.
As if we needed further proof that the John Edwards presidential campaign might be imploding, he's now enlisting the Olivia Newton-John vote. That's right. For a mere $44, you can get the proud owner of -- quote -- "a classic fuzzy sweatband."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Emblazoned with -- with a "Jog with John" motto. A fund-raising e-mail sent by the Edwards campaign encourages supporters to get behind the avid runner in his most challenging and yet doomed race yet, by getting four friends to pledge $44 to help make Edwards the 44th president. Unfortunately, there's nothing John Edwards can do. His career is over. And it's sad. He could have been a decent senator.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me tell you what. I think it's a perfectly good idea to sell sweatbands for $44, as opposed to what the Bush administration -- to sell pollution to the coal companies for tens of millions of dollars.
CARLSON: I know. I know.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: That -- I know that offends you, that people go out and jog and we're stifling on the air that the coal companies -- industry's money bought this administration, like a sack of potatoes.
CARLSON: It doesn't offend me. It's so dumb, it amuses me.
CARVILLE: Lack a sack of potatoes, for sale sign on the White House.
CARLSON: But address this. But address this. John Edwards might have been a promising senator. Now his political career is over. You're not even going to respond to that, because you know it's true.
CARVILLE: Of course it's not over. Why is it over?
CARLSON: He's not going to be the nominee and he's not running for Senate again.
CARVILLE: How do you know that? At least he's not selling himself like a sack of potatoes, like Bush did. He's got a little more pride.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: He'll go back to chasing ambulances. CARVILLE: An op-ed college in today's "Washington Post" just shows how well the Bush administration has managed to brainwash Washington's conservative commentators.
Charles Krauthammer tries to pick apart a brave statement by -- the great Senator Ted Kennedy made about the real motive behind the Iraq war. Kennedy said -- quote -- "There was no real threat. This was made up in Texas, announced in January to the Republican leadership that war was going to take place and it was going to be good politically. This whole thing was a fraud."
Krauthammer says Kennedy's statement marked a new stage in losing it, calling it a transition into derangement.
I'll tell you what, Mr. Krauthammer. You're the one that's deranged. Ted Kennedy is the greatest United States senator in the last 40 years. And I say, keep speaking out and don't let the P.C. police and the patriot correct police and Mr. Krauthammer, whose life exists to be patted on the head by Mr. Wolfowitz -- I'm standing with Ted Kennedy. And I'm glad that he had the guts to speak out against the war.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Attacking Mr. Krauthammer personally is
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He didn't attack Ted Kennedy personally. If he attacked Ted Kennedy personally, I'll attack him back personally.
CARLSON: But I will say, James, you claim that there is this patriotic police that keeps people from talking. Every one of the 10 Democratic presidential candidates says the same thing you said. But why resort to a conspiracy theory?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know why. Because all Charles Krauthammer cares about is Wolfowitz inviting him to a dinner party.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He's a gopher, a little neocon gopher.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's an awful thing. You know what? He's actually an honorable, decent person who happens to disagree with you. And yet you attack him personally. And I think that's wrong.
CARVILLE: He is attacking Ted Kennedy. I'm going to defend Ted Kennedy. He's a great man.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: OK.
Well, on yesterday's program on telemarketing, some of you may have seen it. I jokingly gave out what I said was my home phone number. In fact, it was the main number of the Washington bureau of the Fox News Channel.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I thought it was funny. Fox did not think it was funny.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Apparently, many of our viewers called that number, hoping to speak to me. Instead, they reached a grouchy Fox switchboard operator.
Well, to our viewers, I'm sorry I gave you that bad information, even in jest. Last night, Fox responded by posting on its Web site my unlisted home phone number, the phone number where my wife and four small children often answer the phone, as they did last night, during dinner, when the first of several hundred Fox viewers called to scream obscenities at them into the phone.
Fox had every right to be annoyed by what I did, amusing as I thought it was. They had no right to invade my privacy or to enable their followers to threaten my family.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And you know what, James?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I say this seriously. You have four children. One of your child is in the third grade, the same classroom as my child. And you know what my definition of an operation that would scare the dickens out of little children and a mother living at home and a lot of times you being out of town?
This is a pond scum operation that would do that, that would terrify children, that would put something like that up there for the bunch of nuts that watch that thing to call and harass you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You pulled a joke. If they want to go adult-to-adult, person-to-person, that's fine. You're big enough to take it. They have no right to be scaring the dickens out of children, out of little children, when their daddy's out of town. And they ought to be ashamed of themselves.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: Ashamed of themselves for doing that.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, thank you, James.
Incidentally, we have Roger Ailes' home phone number, but we're not going to give it to you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, I wouldn't do that, because Roger Ailes has a small child. He showed me the picture of it. I think Roger Ailes is a good man.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: I don't think he was behind this.
CARLSON: All right.
Now there are 10. The Democrats who want to be president have yet another challenger. Is the former general ready to play politics with the professionals? We'll debate the debate just ahead.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Former General Wesley Clark went through political boot camp last night at Pace University.
He appeared in his first debate as a presidential hopeful, squaring off against nine other Democrats. So, was Clark's performance worthy of a salute or do his political advisers need to give more basic training?
Right now, we want to put last night's debate to the CROSSFIRE and other political issues. We're joined by Congressman Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, and Democrat Eleanor Holmes Norton, Washington, D.C.'s congressional delegate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Ms. Norton, thanks for joining us.
General Wesley Clark now in the race. It was uncovered the day before yesterday that, on May 11, 2001 -- this was after the Florida recount, after the Bush administration was recognizable to Democrats as something they really didn't like -- gave a speech in Arkansas to a Republican group in which he came out Ronald Reagan, attacked old Europe, and then said this -- and I'm quoting now. This is about president George W. Bush.
Quote: "President George Bush had the courage and the vision. And we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship." He goes on, but I don't want to torture you.
Can he now claim to be a partisan Democrat with any credibility, truly?
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: Of course.
In fact, probably what we need is a Democrat who also brings some Republican credentials to the table, who will then appeal to Republicans, as well as Democrats and independents. All we're going to look to today is, what is his bottom line on our issues? And it looks like his bottom line is very much that of a Democrat.
CARVILLE: Congressman, let me show you what -- something that General Clark had to say yesterday that I think rang tremendously true. And I suspect it's something we'll be hearing a lot of.
Can we tee that up, please? Well, I guess we can't.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLARK: I've got a better job plan in eight days than George Bush had in three years in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Obviously, this administration's economic policies is not quite in the shambles that its Iraq policy is, but it's in shambles. Can you name me something they're succeeding that?
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, I think, James, there's no question that the president is succeeding at leading America with courage and with character and with vision.
He has advanced the cause of freedom for the people of Iraq. He has confronted terrorism bravely after September 11. And the combination of national emergency and recession and war has had its toll at home. But this president is doggedly and determinedly fighting to turn this economy around, James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Ms. Norton...
CARVILLE: I wish he was.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: General Clark is at the top of a number of different polls in the Democratic field. But a lot of Democrats I talk to don't take that too seriously. They really believe that Howard Dean, former governor of Vermont, is the front-runner right now.
I want to read you a quote from former Senator George McGovern of South Dakota. He said this to "U.S. News" the other day. And I'm quoting now: "His, Dean's, campaign reminds me a lot of what we did 30 years ago." (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And, of course, what we did 30 years ago, in McGovern's case, is lose really badly.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: To a Republican, Richard Nixon.
Do you share the fear that many Democrats do, that Howard Dean is going to lose it for your party?
NORTON: Not at all.
What Howard Dean has done is bring out what you -- what the pundits say is the Democratic base. That's not the Democratic base. That's a whole lot of new voters. Democrats tell me they go into Democratic strongholds and they say, who are these folks? These Howard Dean folks are new folks in the Democratic Party. They're young folks. They're folks who were so turned off by politics that they needed someone to draw them in.
I think he's done our party a lot of good, whether or not he becomes a candidate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, Congressman Rahm Emanuel has introduced the American parity bill, which says that everything -- you spend something in Iraq, you should spend it in America.
For instance, President Bush proposes spending $6 billion for an electrical grid in Iraq. And he said we Should spend that much for an electrical grid in America that -- well, our lights went out between Chicago and New York. Will you be signing on to Congressman Emanuel's outstanding, visionary, brilliant piece of legislation?
PENCE: Well, I'm not sure. I haven't looked at it yet. Rahm is a friend. And I've enjoyed working with him on a number of issues. But, look...
CARVILLE: Does that make sense to you, that if we spend the money on water purification in Iraq, we should spend money on water purification in America? If we're spending $800 million on the hospitals...
PENCE: Well, James, I think we should spend the resources where the American taxpayers need us to spend those resources, both at home, as we've gone through this massive appropriations process.
But overseas, I think, frankly, the principal underpinning of Rahm's bill is a good one. And I'm someone who is joining other Republicans and Democrats in the House and Senate to say that that $20 billion that's part of that supplemental package that we're learning this week will even be building neighborhoods, paying for garbage trucks and basic infrastructure, I think that ought to be a loan, James.
And I think that would reflect the priorities of the American people. Have Iraq be a partner with us in their own future success and security.
CARVILLE: So Rahm can call you and you may hook up with him on this piece of legislation?
PENCE: He can call me, James.
(LAUGHTER)
PENCE: And we'll have a great chat.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now, Ms. Norton, just political analysis question for you. Howard Dean is, in some ways, running against the leadership of his own party. His famous line, "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party."
NORTON: He's running as an outsider.
CARLSON: Exactly. That's exactly right.
So, don't you think it helps him when people like Congressman Gephardt and Senator Kerry single him out, as they did in the debate yesterday, for abuse? Doesn't it help his contention that he's running against Washington? Doesn't it strengthen him?
NORTON: Oh, in one sense, it does.
Look, it dubs him the front-runner. The more they attack him, the more they crown him the front-runner. Now, the problem is, they may bring him down. And that's what they're trying to do. No one anticipated, for example, that Clark would get into the race. That has rescrambled the race altogether. And nobody knows where Dean is now.
CARLSON: Do you take Clark seriously?
NORTON: I take Clark very seriously. And I think every Democrat will. He strengthens us on the only issue where we're weak and one where we need to be strengthened.
(APPLAUSE)
NORTON: I haven't endorsed anybody yet, but I'm glad I didn't, because the more come in the race for me to look over, the better chance we have of defeating George Bush. And that's the bottom line. And that's the only bottom line for me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The -- the president's request assumes $40 billion in aid from foreign companies -- countries. Do you think that's realistic to expect and assume that other nations can give $40 billion to our effort in Iraq?
PENCE: Well, I do know that part of the reconstruction plan includes -- I've heard the number $10 billion in specific direct aid, and then -- and then leverage funds financed from support from the international community.
But I do think, after the president's address to the U.N. this week, that we're letting our yes be yes and our no be no. We're inviting the world to come along with us to advance freedom and stability in Iraq. And I believe this president will continue, James, to be a success on the world stage.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK, we're just going to take a quick break.
Ms. Norton, Mr. Pence, we'll be right back.
Up next, in "Rapid Fire," we target the issues with quick questions with and even quicker, we hope, responses.
And just ahead, Judy Woodruff has the latest on what might come out of President Bush's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin this weekend at Camp David.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's now time for "Rapid Fire," where we're packing the political heat.
We're joined once again by Republican Congressman Mike Pence of Indiana and by Washington's congressional delegate, Eleanor Holmes Norton.
CARLSON: Now, Ms. Norton, Democrats have made the point repeatedly that the California recall and all recalls like that are immoral and undemocratic. Given that -- and I assume you would agree -- wouldn't it therefore be immoral for Democrats to mount any sort of recall after this point?
NORTON: Absolutely. Immoral is not the right word.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: How about wrong?
NORTON: Yes, I'll take that one.
I'm against these recalls. I'm against the whole initiative system. Now I know why we have representative government. We need people to contemplate bills, to contemplate action, and then go to the people. We don't just throw things to the people, or else you've got the chaos you have in California.
CARLSON: I'm on your side. I agree.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I want to go back. Do you think we should pay for the $87 billion by increasing the deficit or doing away with the tax cut for the top 1 percent of taxpayers?
PENCE: I absolutely think we ought to pay for it out of existing resources. We're just now, James -- I know it's going to disappoint you -- we're coming out of this recession. We're on about the
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: We're about the third quarter of growth. And the last thing we need to do is raise taxes.
CARVILLE: But Congressman, Congressman, we have -- we're $500 billion in the hole. We can't pay for it with existing resource. We're in debt. Should we increase the debt to pay for this or should we cut back on a tax cut of the top 1 percent? I want to tell you this. We're in a hole. We're el busto. We're busted.
(APPLAUSE)
PENCE: Yes, short answer, I think we should go ahead and incur additional debt. But Abraham Lincoln said, remember, a nation shouldn't worry too much about a debt it owes itself.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Ms. Norton, very quickly. We're almost out of time. Should Congress approve the money for the troops the president has asked for?
NORTON: It must. They got us into this hole.
(BELL RINGING)
NORTON: They got -- we our backs against the wall. We can't cut and run. But we've got to get out of there as soon as possible.
CARLSON: OK, so do the president's bidding.
Thank you, Eleanor Holmes Norton, Mike Pence, thank you both very much.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Coming up, it's time for you, the viewers, to fire back at us. One of you says you might be changing your television viewing habits soon, and good for you.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We've been firing questions at our guests and firing questions at each other. And now it's time for you to fire questions at us. And you'll fire away.
And the first fire is beautiful Nancy Shockey from Glendale, Arizona. And she says: "The only Americans who have ever been in danger of an imminent threat from Iraq are our 140,000 brave men and women currently serving in Iraq."
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Way to go, Nancy.
I remember them talking about mushroom clouds over New York. And the whole lying pack of them, they didn't have a plan to get us out of here.
CARLSON: Derek Weimer from Cincinnati writes: "I've been a big Fox News fan for the last several years. However, after this irresponsible stunt, I've decided perhaps I should start checking out CROSSFIRE regularly and looking to other services for my news."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I have to say, there's some talented people on Fox, truly. But they are humorless and thin-skinned.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know, what offends people is these clods scaring the dickens out of little children, out of your kids.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If you're man -- if you want to take somebody on, be man enough to take on the guy that you have a grievance with. Don't take it out on his wife and kids.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right. And we have an audience question.
Yes, sir?
CARVILLE: Did you want to ask about how cowardly Fox News was? I'm sorry. Go ahead.
CARLSON: Now, James, you're making me sympathize with Fox. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Bill from Cumberland, Virginia.
What's going to happen to President Bush's popularity polls if we never get any weapons of mass destruction?
CARVILLE: Well, we're not. So...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, we don't know. It's ludicrous to make predictions at this point. One never knows. I think it's a big deal. I said so the other day. The war was predicated, at least in part, on the existence of WMD. And if they're not there, it's significant. No doubt about it.
CARVILLE: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Nick (ph) from Maine.
And I was wondering if you think that Howard Dean's appeal to the left, which has made him so popular in the primary, will have alienated the support he would need from the center to be elected president?
CARLSON: Well, of course. I'm mean, come on.
CARVILLE: Actually, I'm not sure that all of his appeal is to the left. There are a lot of McCain Dean voters. I think his appeal is more to anti-Washington people within the party, as much as it to the left.
CARLSON: I think that's true. But when you look at Howard Dean, do you say to yourself, yes, he can keep our country safe? I don't think you do.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know what? I'll tell you what he won't do. You look at Howard Dean, you say, he won't lie to get us into war.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next time -- that would be Monday -- for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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Aired September 26, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The Democratic Party presidential debate club has a new member.
WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's why I'm proud to be a Democrat.
ANNOUNCER: Will this former general be able to rally the troops and capture the nomination?
Another front-runner had to come up with a defense strategy of his own.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Is flat-out false, and I'm ashamed that you would compare me with Newt Gingrich. Nobody up here deserves to be compared to Newt Gingrich.
ANNOUNCER: Who were the winners and who were the losers?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Last night, 10 Democrats showed why their party is 10 times better than the GOP. They outlined their positions. They were quick on their feet. And even in their worst moments, they were better than President Bush on a good day.
We'll put their debate in the CROSSFIRE in just a few moments. But first, the best little briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
For a long -- for a long time, many have thought that Colin Powell is the only man in the Bush administration who is capable of telling the truth. He did one time. On February 24, 2001, in Egypt, Colin Powell said -- quote -- "Frankly, the sanctions against Iraq have worked. He," Saddam Hussein," has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
Now we know for certain that the administration's case for war was a pack of lies. Powell called it from the beginning. And now the rest of us know it to be true, what Powell said in Egypt.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Now, I know, James, you are going to be tempted to shout me down, but, if you can, attempt to answer this question.
CARVILLE: Be glad to.
CARLSON: Colin Powell almost exactly two years later made precisely the opposite case to the United Nations, arguing that in fact Iraq is a threat not simply to its neighbors, but to the U.S., because it had these capabilities he claimed it did not have. Was he lying? Or did someone force him to lie, and therefore he's a weasel? Which one?
CARVILLE: B. B. He was forced to lie and, therefore, he is a weasel.
CARLSON: Then how in the world...
CARVILLE: He told the truth. He told the truth on February 24, 2001.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's your position. Colin Powell is a weasel.
CARVILLE: He's capable of truth.
CARLSON: And yet you say that he's the only man who tells the truth.
CARVILLE: A weasel is capable of the truth. I think the man told the truth on February 24.
CARLSON: Well, I think he's a decent man.
CARVILLE: I think he's a very decent man.
CARLSON: But a weasel, too.
CARVILLE: I think he would have liked to tell the truth. I think he's around people who forced him to lie. He knew full well it wasn't true. And it turned out it wasn't truth.
(APPLAUSE)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: I never knew he was a weak and contemptible liar. Interesting. I kind of like him.
As if we needed further proof that the John Edwards presidential campaign might be imploding, he's now enlisting the Olivia Newton-John vote. That's right. For a mere $44, you can get the proud owner of -- quote -- "a classic fuzzy sweatband."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Emblazoned with -- with a "Jog with John" motto. A fund-raising e-mail sent by the Edwards campaign encourages supporters to get behind the avid runner in his most challenging and yet doomed race yet, by getting four friends to pledge $44 to help make Edwards the 44th president. Unfortunately, there's nothing John Edwards can do. His career is over. And it's sad. He could have been a decent senator.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me tell you what. I think it's a perfectly good idea to sell sweatbands for $44, as opposed to what the Bush administration -- to sell pollution to the coal companies for tens of millions of dollars.
CARLSON: I know. I know.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: That -- I know that offends you, that people go out and jog and we're stifling on the air that the coal companies -- industry's money bought this administration, like a sack of potatoes.
CARLSON: It doesn't offend me. It's so dumb, it amuses me.
CARVILLE: Lack a sack of potatoes, for sale sign on the White House.
CARLSON: But address this. But address this. John Edwards might have been a promising senator. Now his political career is over. You're not even going to respond to that, because you know it's true.
CARVILLE: Of course it's not over. Why is it over?
CARLSON: He's not going to be the nominee and he's not running for Senate again.
CARVILLE: How do you know that? At least he's not selling himself like a sack of potatoes, like Bush did. He's got a little more pride.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: He'll go back to chasing ambulances. CARVILLE: An op-ed college in today's "Washington Post" just shows how well the Bush administration has managed to brainwash Washington's conservative commentators.
Charles Krauthammer tries to pick apart a brave statement by -- the great Senator Ted Kennedy made about the real motive behind the Iraq war. Kennedy said -- quote -- "There was no real threat. This was made up in Texas, announced in January to the Republican leadership that war was going to take place and it was going to be good politically. This whole thing was a fraud."
Krauthammer says Kennedy's statement marked a new stage in losing it, calling it a transition into derangement.
I'll tell you what, Mr. Krauthammer. You're the one that's deranged. Ted Kennedy is the greatest United States senator in the last 40 years. And I say, keep speaking out and don't let the P.C. police and the patriot correct police and Mr. Krauthammer, whose life exists to be patted on the head by Mr. Wolfowitz -- I'm standing with Ted Kennedy. And I'm glad that he had the guts to speak out against the war.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Attacking Mr. Krauthammer personally is
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He didn't attack Ted Kennedy personally. If he attacked Ted Kennedy personally, I'll attack him back personally.
CARLSON: But I will say, James, you claim that there is this patriotic police that keeps people from talking. Every one of the 10 Democratic presidential candidates says the same thing you said. But why resort to a conspiracy theory?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know why. Because all Charles Krauthammer cares about is Wolfowitz inviting him to a dinner party.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He's a gopher, a little neocon gopher.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's an awful thing. You know what? He's actually an honorable, decent person who happens to disagree with you. And yet you attack him personally. And I think that's wrong.
CARVILLE: He is attacking Ted Kennedy. I'm going to defend Ted Kennedy. He's a great man.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: OK.
Well, on yesterday's program on telemarketing, some of you may have seen it. I jokingly gave out what I said was my home phone number. In fact, it was the main number of the Washington bureau of the Fox News Channel.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I thought it was funny. Fox did not think it was funny.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Apparently, many of our viewers called that number, hoping to speak to me. Instead, they reached a grouchy Fox switchboard operator.
Well, to our viewers, I'm sorry I gave you that bad information, even in jest. Last night, Fox responded by posting on its Web site my unlisted home phone number, the phone number where my wife and four small children often answer the phone, as they did last night, during dinner, when the first of several hundred Fox viewers called to scream obscenities at them into the phone.
Fox had every right to be annoyed by what I did, amusing as I thought it was. They had no right to invade my privacy or to enable their followers to threaten my family.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And you know what, James?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I say this seriously. You have four children. One of your child is in the third grade, the same classroom as my child. And you know what my definition of an operation that would scare the dickens out of little children and a mother living at home and a lot of times you being out of town?
This is a pond scum operation that would do that, that would terrify children, that would put something like that up there for the bunch of nuts that watch that thing to call and harass you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You pulled a joke. If they want to go adult-to-adult, person-to-person, that's fine. You're big enough to take it. They have no right to be scaring the dickens out of children, out of little children, when their daddy's out of town. And they ought to be ashamed of themselves.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: Ashamed of themselves for doing that.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, thank you, James.
Incidentally, we have Roger Ailes' home phone number, but we're not going to give it to you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, I wouldn't do that, because Roger Ailes has a small child. He showed me the picture of it. I think Roger Ailes is a good man.
CARLSON: OK.
CARVILLE: I don't think he was behind this.
CARLSON: All right.
Now there are 10. The Democrats who want to be president have yet another challenger. Is the former general ready to play politics with the professionals? We'll debate the debate just ahead.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Former General Wesley Clark went through political boot camp last night at Pace University.
He appeared in his first debate as a presidential hopeful, squaring off against nine other Democrats. So, was Clark's performance worthy of a salute or do his political advisers need to give more basic training?
Right now, we want to put last night's debate to the CROSSFIRE and other political issues. We're joined by Congressman Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, and Democrat Eleanor Holmes Norton, Washington, D.C.'s congressional delegate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Ms. Norton, thanks for joining us.
General Wesley Clark now in the race. It was uncovered the day before yesterday that, on May 11, 2001 -- this was after the Florida recount, after the Bush administration was recognizable to Democrats as something they really didn't like -- gave a speech in Arkansas to a Republican group in which he came out Ronald Reagan, attacked old Europe, and then said this -- and I'm quoting now. This is about president George W. Bush.
Quote: "President George Bush had the courage and the vision. And we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship." He goes on, but I don't want to torture you.
Can he now claim to be a partisan Democrat with any credibility, truly?
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: Of course.
In fact, probably what we need is a Democrat who also brings some Republican credentials to the table, who will then appeal to Republicans, as well as Democrats and independents. All we're going to look to today is, what is his bottom line on our issues? And it looks like his bottom line is very much that of a Democrat.
CARVILLE: Congressman, let me show you what -- something that General Clark had to say yesterday that I think rang tremendously true. And I suspect it's something we'll be hearing a lot of.
Can we tee that up, please? Well, I guess we can't.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLARK: I've got a better job plan in eight days than George Bush had in three years in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Obviously, this administration's economic policies is not quite in the shambles that its Iraq policy is, but it's in shambles. Can you name me something they're succeeding that?
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, I think, James, there's no question that the president is succeeding at leading America with courage and with character and with vision.
He has advanced the cause of freedom for the people of Iraq. He has confronted terrorism bravely after September 11. And the combination of national emergency and recession and war has had its toll at home. But this president is doggedly and determinedly fighting to turn this economy around, James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Ms. Norton...
CARVILLE: I wish he was.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: General Clark is at the top of a number of different polls in the Democratic field. But a lot of Democrats I talk to don't take that too seriously. They really believe that Howard Dean, former governor of Vermont, is the front-runner right now.
I want to read you a quote from former Senator George McGovern of South Dakota. He said this to "U.S. News" the other day. And I'm quoting now: "His, Dean's, campaign reminds me a lot of what we did 30 years ago." (LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And, of course, what we did 30 years ago, in McGovern's case, is lose really badly.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: To a Republican, Richard Nixon.
Do you share the fear that many Democrats do, that Howard Dean is going to lose it for your party?
NORTON: Not at all.
What Howard Dean has done is bring out what you -- what the pundits say is the Democratic base. That's not the Democratic base. That's a whole lot of new voters. Democrats tell me they go into Democratic strongholds and they say, who are these folks? These Howard Dean folks are new folks in the Democratic Party. They're young folks. They're folks who were so turned off by politics that they needed someone to draw them in.
I think he's done our party a lot of good, whether or not he becomes a candidate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, Congressman Rahm Emanuel has introduced the American parity bill, which says that everything -- you spend something in Iraq, you should spend it in America.
For instance, President Bush proposes spending $6 billion for an electrical grid in Iraq. And he said we Should spend that much for an electrical grid in America that -- well, our lights went out between Chicago and New York. Will you be signing on to Congressman Emanuel's outstanding, visionary, brilliant piece of legislation?
PENCE: Well, I'm not sure. I haven't looked at it yet. Rahm is a friend. And I've enjoyed working with him on a number of issues. But, look...
CARVILLE: Does that make sense to you, that if we spend the money on water purification in Iraq, we should spend money on water purification in America? If we're spending $800 million on the hospitals...
PENCE: Well, James, I think we should spend the resources where the American taxpayers need us to spend those resources, both at home, as we've gone through this massive appropriations process.
But overseas, I think, frankly, the principal underpinning of Rahm's bill is a good one. And I'm someone who is joining other Republicans and Democrats in the House and Senate to say that that $20 billion that's part of that supplemental package that we're learning this week will even be building neighborhoods, paying for garbage trucks and basic infrastructure, I think that ought to be a loan, James.
And I think that would reflect the priorities of the American people. Have Iraq be a partner with us in their own future success and security.
CARVILLE: So Rahm can call you and you may hook up with him on this piece of legislation?
PENCE: He can call me, James.
(LAUGHTER)
PENCE: And we'll have a great chat.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now, Ms. Norton, just political analysis question for you. Howard Dean is, in some ways, running against the leadership of his own party. His famous line, "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party."
NORTON: He's running as an outsider.
CARLSON: Exactly. That's exactly right.
So, don't you think it helps him when people like Congressman Gephardt and Senator Kerry single him out, as they did in the debate yesterday, for abuse? Doesn't it help his contention that he's running against Washington? Doesn't it strengthen him?
NORTON: Oh, in one sense, it does.
Look, it dubs him the front-runner. The more they attack him, the more they crown him the front-runner. Now, the problem is, they may bring him down. And that's what they're trying to do. No one anticipated, for example, that Clark would get into the race. That has rescrambled the race altogether. And nobody knows where Dean is now.
CARLSON: Do you take Clark seriously?
NORTON: I take Clark very seriously. And I think every Democrat will. He strengthens us on the only issue where we're weak and one where we need to be strengthened.
(APPLAUSE)
NORTON: I haven't endorsed anybody yet, but I'm glad I didn't, because the more come in the race for me to look over, the better chance we have of defeating George Bush. And that's the bottom line. And that's the only bottom line for me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The -- the president's request assumes $40 billion in aid from foreign companies -- countries. Do you think that's realistic to expect and assume that other nations can give $40 billion to our effort in Iraq?
PENCE: Well, I do know that part of the reconstruction plan includes -- I've heard the number $10 billion in specific direct aid, and then -- and then leverage funds financed from support from the international community.
But I do think, after the president's address to the U.N. this week, that we're letting our yes be yes and our no be no. We're inviting the world to come along with us to advance freedom and stability in Iraq. And I believe this president will continue, James, to be a success on the world stage.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK, we're just going to take a quick break.
Ms. Norton, Mr. Pence, we'll be right back.
Up next, in "Rapid Fire," we target the issues with quick questions with and even quicker, we hope, responses.
And just ahead, Judy Woodruff has the latest on what might come out of President Bush's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin this weekend at Camp David.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's now time for "Rapid Fire," where we're packing the political heat.
We're joined once again by Republican Congressman Mike Pence of Indiana and by Washington's congressional delegate, Eleanor Holmes Norton.
CARLSON: Now, Ms. Norton, Democrats have made the point repeatedly that the California recall and all recalls like that are immoral and undemocratic. Given that -- and I assume you would agree -- wouldn't it therefore be immoral for Democrats to mount any sort of recall after this point?
NORTON: Absolutely. Immoral is not the right word.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: How about wrong?
NORTON: Yes, I'll take that one.
I'm against these recalls. I'm against the whole initiative system. Now I know why we have representative government. We need people to contemplate bills, to contemplate action, and then go to the people. We don't just throw things to the people, or else you've got the chaos you have in California.
CARLSON: I'm on your side. I agree.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I want to go back. Do you think we should pay for the $87 billion by increasing the deficit or doing away with the tax cut for the top 1 percent of taxpayers?
PENCE: I absolutely think we ought to pay for it out of existing resources. We're just now, James -- I know it's going to disappoint you -- we're coming out of this recession. We're on about the
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: We're about the third quarter of growth. And the last thing we need to do is raise taxes.
CARVILLE: But Congressman, Congressman, we have -- we're $500 billion in the hole. We can't pay for it with existing resource. We're in debt. Should we increase the debt to pay for this or should we cut back on a tax cut of the top 1 percent? I want to tell you this. We're in a hole. We're el busto. We're busted.
(APPLAUSE)
PENCE: Yes, short answer, I think we should go ahead and incur additional debt. But Abraham Lincoln said, remember, a nation shouldn't worry too much about a debt it owes itself.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Ms. Norton, very quickly. We're almost out of time. Should Congress approve the money for the troops the president has asked for?
NORTON: It must. They got us into this hole.
(BELL RINGING)
NORTON: They got -- we our backs against the wall. We can't cut and run. But we've got to get out of there as soon as possible.
CARLSON: OK, so do the president's bidding.
Thank you, Eleanor Holmes Norton, Mike Pence, thank you both very much.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Coming up, it's time for you, the viewers, to fire back at us. One of you says you might be changing your television viewing habits soon, and good for you.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We've been firing questions at our guests and firing questions at each other. And now it's time for you to fire questions at us. And you'll fire away.
And the first fire is beautiful Nancy Shockey from Glendale, Arizona. And she says: "The only Americans who have ever been in danger of an imminent threat from Iraq are our 140,000 brave men and women currently serving in Iraq."
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Way to go, Nancy.
I remember them talking about mushroom clouds over New York. And the whole lying pack of them, they didn't have a plan to get us out of here.
CARLSON: Derek Weimer from Cincinnati writes: "I've been a big Fox News fan for the last several years. However, after this irresponsible stunt, I've decided perhaps I should start checking out CROSSFIRE regularly and looking to other services for my news."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I have to say, there's some talented people on Fox, truly. But they are humorless and thin-skinned.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know, what offends people is these clods scaring the dickens out of little children, out of your kids.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If you're man -- if you want to take somebody on, be man enough to take on the guy that you have a grievance with. Don't take it out on his wife and kids.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right. And we have an audience question.
Yes, sir?
CARVILLE: Did you want to ask about how cowardly Fox News was? I'm sorry. Go ahead.
CARLSON: Now, James, you're making me sympathize with Fox. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Bill from Cumberland, Virginia.
What's going to happen to President Bush's popularity polls if we never get any weapons of mass destruction?
CARVILLE: Well, we're not. So...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, we don't know. It's ludicrous to make predictions at this point. One never knows. I think it's a big deal. I said so the other day. The war was predicated, at least in part, on the existence of WMD. And if they're not there, it's significant. No doubt about it.
CARVILLE: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Nick (ph) from Maine.
And I was wondering if you think that Howard Dean's appeal to the left, which has made him so popular in the primary, will have alienated the support he would need from the center to be elected president?
CARLSON: Well, of course. I'm mean, come on.
CARVILLE: Actually, I'm not sure that all of his appeal is to the left. There are a lot of McCain Dean voters. I think his appeal is more to anti-Washington people within the party, as much as it to the left.
CARLSON: I think that's true. But when you look at Howard Dean, do you say to yourself, yes, he can keep our country safe? I don't think you do.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know what? I'll tell you what he won't do. You look at Howard Dean, you say, he won't lie to get us into war.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next time -- that would be Monday -- for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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