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CNN Crossfire
Special Counsel Likely in Leak Investigation?
Aired October 02, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: How many investigators does it take to find a leak?
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: I just have confidence in our Department of Justice and in our FBI to handle this appropriately.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: The close association between some in the Justice Department and officials in the White House really calls for a special counsel.
ANNOUNCER: And how does the senator feel about appointing a special counsel?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Today, one of Congress' most dogged investigators steps into the CROSSFIRE. We'll ask him why a dozen committees and subcommittees aren't already holding hearings on the CIA leak. It only happened way back in July.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
David Kay, the Bush administration's chief weapons of mass destruction hunter in Iraq, briefed Congress today. The hearings were behind closed doors, but it's no secret that Kay hadn't hasn't found much of anything.
In fact, officials say, David Kay and his team have found no banned weapons in Iraq. This led conservative columnist George Will to write -- quote -- "Why is it so difficult for the Bush administration to candidly acknowledge that much prewar intelligence about weapons of mass destruction was wrong? -- unquote.
When even George Will is sick of the lies, you know things are getting out of hand. But my question is this, America. Why should anyone be surprised to learn the Bush administration is not forthcoming? The real surprise would be, for once, if they ever told the truth.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: The partisan caste on that is not worth responding to. But I actually agree with George Will.
If this is true, in this report, when we finally see what is in it, and it turns out there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that means the Bush administration was wrong, Hillary Clinton was wrong, Hans Blix was wrong, Jacques Chirac was wrong. It's a big deal. And they ought to admit it.
CARVILLE: It means -- it means -- it means that they started a war that they fibbed to get us in and they had no plan to get us out. That is all it means.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Everybody believed.
CARVILLE: No, no. Nobody went to war -- nobody started a war over it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It was a bipartisan consensus that those weapons were there.
CARVILLE: No, it wasn't. Nobody started a war over it.
CARLSON: You thought they were there. I thought they were there. And if they're not there, shame on all of us.
CARVILLE: I certainly didn't any nuclear weapons were there, like Condoleezza Rice and Vice President Cheney said. Neither did you. You knew they were lying, too.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... chemical and biological weapons.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You knew they didn't have them.
CARLSON: Well, since becoming his party's front-runner, Howard Dean has spent much of his time responding to savage, unfair, and sometimes personal attacks. And here's the weird part. These attacks haven't come from Republicans, many of whom have deep affection for the scrappy Vermont fireplug. They have come from fellow Democrats.
As "The Washington Post" points out this morning, the Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt campaigns, each flailing badly, have devoted themselves to savaging poor Howard Dean. Dean's unforgivable crime? Having independent thoughts not previously approved by the DNC politburo. When Dean dared to suggest innovative ways of saving Social Security, Dean -- Kerry, rather, blasted Dean as being -- quote -- "on the wrong side of seniors."
Well, not only are attacks on Howard Dean counterproductive -- his supporters couldn't care less, for the most part -- but they're also shortsighted, because someday soon, very soon, Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt may want to be his vice presidential candidate.
CARVILLE: You know, what's stunning is, you sat in the 2000 campaign, when the Bush campaign accused Senator McCain of fathering a black child out of wedlock.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, they didn't. That's so stupid. That never happened, James. I was there.
CARVILLE: When President Bush stood on a plane with a veteran in South Carolina who said that McCain wasn't great. There was no more savaging that ever took place in any primary more than Bush people savaged John McCain. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
CARLSON: Myself?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: This is a politics disagree in the Democratic Party.
CARLSON: Oh, yes. I wrote a whole story about it at the time.
CARVILLE: When any Democrats suffers a personal problem, Rush Limbaugh has never offered any measure of compassion or forgiveness. In fact, he even took joy in other's downfall. Now the tables have turned.
In addition to losing his job at ESPN over a mean and insensitive comment, it is being reported today that Rush's name has come up in an investigation of alleged illegal prescription painkiller drugs that he thought -- that he could be addicted to the drugs himself. I know a lot of Democrats want to be gleeful about this. But I think that's the wrong response. That's the right-wing response.
The better one is that we have compassion. This is a human being. We should express compassion for him and hope that he gets treatment and gets rid of what could be a serious addiction to a very addictive drug. Rush, I hope you get well soon, if these stories are true. CARLSON: I don't think your fellow Democrats will take up your offer to be compassion and decent. I'm sure they're savaging him right now on the Internet for some addiction that probably is beyond his control, if it's true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, it is the Republicans like to savage and take such glee in other people's...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why don't you go to a site that has the tail number of Mel Carnahan's airplane? And right-wing Republican Missourian Kit Bond refused to fire this woman for 24 hours.
CARLSON: Actually...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Cruelty is at the heart of the Republican Party. And you know that.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Stupid comments like that aren't worth responding to.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You can't respond to them.
CARLSON: The disgusting Web site you just referred to has been pulled off the Internet and the person who put it up has been fired.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Yes, after 24 hours, after he first tried not to fire her. So you ought to...
CARLSON: Well, as "The Weekly Standard" pointed out yesterday, on a happier note, there is at least one reason for Californians to vote for Cruz Bustamante next Tuesday, his sister.
She is incredibly entertaining. Nao Bustamante is not only the youngest sibling of the lieutenant governor of that state, she is also a performance artist. Quote -- "Using the body as a source of image, narrative and emotion," she writes, "my performances communicate on the level of subconscious language, taking the spectator on a bizarre journey, cracking stereotypes and embodying them."
Well, a local newspaper described one of Ms. Bustamante's who's this way -- quote -- "She strapped on a burrito to herself and called for white men to come up on stage, take a bite out of the burrito, and absolve themselves of 500 years of the white man's guilt" -- end quote.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And it got zanier from there.
Well, Cruz Bustamante is not going to win, of course. And that's too bad, because his sister would make a terrific first sibling.
CARVILLE: You know...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what? I support Cruz Bustamante.
CARVILLE: I like this. I love this. You all go after to Joe Wilson's wife, Cruz Bustamante's sister.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You love to go after politician's family members.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? If you got a bone with somebody, pick it with themselves. Have the courage to stand up and pick it. Don't go after a man's wife. Don't go after a man's sister. Don't go after a man's children.
CARLSON: I'm not going to get in a shouting match.
CARVILLE: Be a man. Go toe-to-toe with them. That's what I say.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: James, I have you say, when you have a tiny brain and you can't respond to the actual argument, you scream the other person down. And that's pathetic.
CARVILLE: Attacking a man's sister.
CARLSON: I'm celebrating her, as you know.
CARVILLE: Yes, right.
CARLSON: Tracking down the leaker. Well, you'll never guess who likes the idea of a special counsel now. How times have changed.
We'll put the leak and the debate over who should investigate the leak in the CROSSFIRE next. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Well, it looks like the CIA leak investigation will be expanding. The Associated Press reports that the Defense and State Department and possibly others are likely to be told to preserve documents, phone logs and e-mail, just as the people at the CIA and White House already have been.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate it this afternoon, Texas Democratic Congressman Martin Frost, along with Indiana Republican Congressman Dan Burton, the former chairman of the House Government Reform Committee.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, Tucker is attacking Cruz Bustamante sister. You attacked Mrs. Clinton more viciously than anybody on the Hill.
CARLSON: Oh, give me a break, James.
CARVILLE: Karl Rove has said that Ambassador's Wilson wife is fair game. What is it about the conservative philosophy that makes you want to attack people's sisters and spouses and not go -- is there some cowardly nature to being a conservative?
REP. DAN BURTON (R), INDIANA: Let me just say that you married a very wonderful woman. And I'm certainly not going to attack her.
CARVILLE: Thank you. I understand. I thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
BURTON: She's a very conservative Republican.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I'm not going to attack your wife either.
BURTON: I would like to -- well, my wife's deceased.
CARVILLE: OK.
BURTON: But I would like to congratulate you on doing that, because maybe that will make you think a little more conservatively in the future.
CARVILLE: No, it won't, because I believe, if you have a problem with somebody -- if you have a problem with Cruz Bustamante, you attack Cruz Bustamante. If you have a problem with Joe Wilson, you attack Joe Wilson. If you have a problem with Bill Clinton, you attack Bill Clinton.
What you do is, you leave people's family out of the fight. And I just -- I find it absolutely interesting that there's this great need to bring people's families into something. Why does Mrs. Wilson's job have anything to do with whether there was yellowcake in Niger or wherever it was?
BURTON: I think the only reason that's been raised is because she, evidently, recommended that her husband be sent over there, according to reports that I've seen.
And I think that's the reason that this issue is raised. But as far as wrongdoing is concerned, I think that the judge and the court remains out on that.
CARVILLE: You're not offended by what happened, are you?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, this is obviously a big deal, if what we're hearing is true. And that is that an undercover operative for the CIA was outed by someone in the administration. We all agree. But there's been some rushing to judgment on the part of Democrats.
I want to give you a prime and sort of appalling example. This is Congresswoman Jan scapegoating on our show yesterday. Here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: There is a former CIA operative who did say that she served for as many as three decades undercover and that now she's an agent at the CIA. I think there's little doubt that we're talking here about a serious crime that has been committed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: OK, now, Mrs. Wilson didn't serve for three decades at the CIA, because she's only 40, for one. For another thing, we didn't know what Mrs. Wilson did at the CIA. There's been no confirmation of what her job is. And everything hangs on that. So don't you think it is a bit over the top, irresponsible, maybe pretty outrageous, for a member of Congress to state that a crime has been committed, when she has no way of knowing that?
REP. MARTIN FROST (D), TEXAS: Tucker, there's a criminal investigation that has been launched by the Justice Department.
CARLSON: Right.
FROST: And unless she were in a sensitive position, they wouldn't have launched a criminal investigation.
Look, there's a lot of back and forth about this. This is not a question of Democrats and Republicans. This is a question of national security. And I notice that a Republican senator, Senator Specter, has just now urged that the attorney general disqualify himself because of his involvement with
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
FROST: So this is not a Democrat
(CROSSTALK)
FROST: ... partisan issue.
CARLSON: Are you suggesting -- and I'm not saying it is necessarily a partisan issue, and it pains me to see Democrats make it one.
FROST: The Republicans are raising it, too.
CARLSON: You appear to be suggesting that a criminal investigation is the same thing as a crime having been committed, as Ms. Schakowsky just said. They are two different things, aren't they?
FROST: I'm just saying that the Justice Department wouldn't have launched a criminal investigation unless this woman, Mrs. Wilson, were in a secretive position, a sensitive position, and that her name should not have been released.
Now, the question is -- the question is who released her name, not her? And I find this pretty extraordinary that people don't focus on the fact that this is a matter of national security and this is something that should not have been done in any administration, whether it's a Democratic or a Republican administration.
BURTON: We agree with that.
CARVILLE: Do you think they ought to just disband investigation? Would you favor...
BURTON: No, no. No, I don't. I think there should be an investigation.
John Dion over at the Justice Department has served there for 30 years. He's the man that's been charged with the responsibility of investigating this. He's a chief spy hunter. He's been doing this for a long time under Democrats and Republicans. He's a man of impeccable integrity. And he's the guy that's going to investigate this initially. And I don't think he's going to mess around with it.
CARVILLE: You don't think there ought to be an independent counsel?
(CROSSTALK)
BURTON: I find it interesting that the Democrats wanted to do away with independent counsels when investigating Bill Clinton.
CARVILLE: A special counsel, a special. You weren't for one under Bill Clinton, were you? You said the people in the Justice Department are perfectly -- is that your position, that the people in the Justice Department are perfectly capable...
BURTON: Well, the independent counsel statute had already been established.
CARVILLE: In 2000, it had expired. Did you favor an independent counsel -- a special counsel then?
BURTON: Well, Janet Reno continued
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So you didn't -- but now, you -- so I just want to get it straight. Now you don't support one. But if it's a Democrat in, you do support one.
BURTON: The Congress decided to do away with the independent counsel statute. And that was what happened.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did you favor one for Al Gore's fund-raising?
CARLSON: I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off, but this is ludicrous.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, you just said a minute ago that you have deep concern for national security. No doubt, you do. Former Ambassador Wilson went to Niger on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency. His findings were classified, as far as I know, as secret.
And yet he came back and wrote about those findings in "The New York Times," which appears to me evidence of a breach of classified information. Are you concerned about that?
FROST: Well, first of all, Tucker, let me make it clear, as you know, I voted for sending troops there. I voted with the president. And I find this whole thing to be offensive.
Now, the CIA -- as you know, the CIA requested an investigation of the publication of Mrs. Wilson's name. The CIA obviously, didn't -- was not concerned about the article he wrote in "The New York Times." They didn't request an investigation of him.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But I want to know if you're concern, when someone goes over on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He knows the law.
CARLSON: Hold on. No, no. Without being attorney, I think we can make moral judgments. And I'm interested in the congressman's.
FROST: I'm just pointing out that the CIA made the judgment here. The CIA is the one who requested the investigation into the release of Mrs. Wilson's name. They weren't concerned about anything that Mr. Wilson said when he came back, Ambassador Wilson, who was appointed an ambassador by a Republican administration.
The CIA is concerned about the integrity of its field -- of its operatives. They are concerned about the integrity and the safety of the people who work for them. And there should be an independent investigator, because -- let's get very clear on this -- Mr. Rove, in the White House, has a political relationship with the attorney general. He worked on two of the attorney general's campaigns when he was a candidate in the state of Missouri.
That's reason enough, under the laws that exist. There is a conflict of interest and there ought to be an independent counsel.
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, to show what a great guy I am, I'm going to let you respond to what Congressman Frost said.
BURTON: John Dion is called the ultimate spy catcher. He is not a Democrat or a Republican appointee at the Justice Department.
He's an independent who is in the public integrity section. And he's going to do a good job.
CARVILLE: You know...
BURTON: And if there's some question about whether or not he does a good job, then, of course, I think there should be an evaluation made on whether there should be an independent counsel -- or special counsel. But I think we should find out, first of all, if a crime was committed.
CARVILLE: It pains me to say this, but, to some extent, I agree with you. I think there are -- there are hundreds, thousands of career Justice Department employees who are extremely competent people. And if they're left alone to conduct an investigation, so be it. I thought that was the case during the Clinton administration. I think it's the case during the Bush administration.
FROST: But they report to the attorney general. That's the problem.
CARVILLE: Right. But maybe they can put a fireball between them. It might be something to look at.
CARLSON: I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We will be right back.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: A quick commercial break.
This debate will continue, because next, we'll enter "Rapid Fire," crisp questions, crisper questions, no time for a leaky argument.
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on what Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rush Limbaugh are saying about their potentially damaging news coverage.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire." Our guests are encouraged to leak or flood, maybe, but they will have to do it in as few words as possible. In the CROSSFIRE, Indiana Republican Congressman Dan Burton and Texas Democratic Congressman Martin Frost.
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, do you think the attorney general of the United States would subvert this investigation?
FROST: The statute provides that, if there's a conflict of interests, he doesn't be in the investigation. There is a conflict of interests. He worked for Karl Rove. I don't know what he would do. But the statute is very clear. He should not be involved in this.
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, how big will the budget deficit be this year?
BURTON: Well, is that part of this debate? I didn't know we were going to get into this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: How big do you think -- you're in the Congress. How big is it going to be?
BURTON: It is going to be substantial.
CARVILLE: Five hundred and fifty billion, is that a good guess?
BURTON: Well, it's going to up there. There's no question.
FROST: And that isn't even counting Social Security. It could be 750.
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, you were quoting in "The New Republic" in May as saying -- quote -- "I think Howard Dean has the appearance of being another George McGovern." Did you mean that as a compliment?
FROST: I think that Howard Dean is an anything candidate who has some weaknesses. I'm looking at other candidates.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: So he's a loser, in other words.
FROST: No. He's an interesting candidate. But I'm looking to other candidates who I find more appealing. If he's the nominee, I'll support him.
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, do you share Tucker Carlson's and George Will's concern that there were no weapons of mass construction found in Iraq, after this administration hyped it? Or does that not bother you in the least?
BURTON: Well, if that's the case, I think it should be admitted.
But let me just say this. Saddam Hussein gassed his own people. He killed thousands of Kurds. He had weapons of mass destruction. And I think it something that was of great concern, not only in Iraq, but around the world.
CARLSON: Congressman, "The New York Times" today reports -- quote -- "Former Ambassador Wilson proudly showed off photographs of his wife, calling her a real-life Jennifer Garner, the actress who plays the spy on 'Alias" on ABC." Doesn't that make your squirm?
FROST: No, it doesn't make me squirm.
CARLSON: He's sound like kind of a loose cannon to me.
FROST: He's proud of his wife, just like I'm proud of my wife, who is a general in the United States Army.
CARLSON: OK.
BURTON: Your wife is a general? Man.
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, Congressman Burton, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: With all this talk of independent counsels, we wanted to know just how many officials independent investigations of the Clinton administration were there. Were there five, seven or 10? We'll have the results just ahead.
Plus, "Fireback," where it's your turn to fire back at us.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback."
But first, the answer to a trivia question about the 1990s that we posed a moment ago. And it was, how many special investigations were launched during the Clinton years. Was it five, said 18 percent, seven, said 66 percent, or 10, said 16 percent. It was, in fact, seven. People have great memories. I'm impressed.
CARVILLE: And all that that produced was, somebody got convicted of receiving illegal football tickets. There were 30 convictions in the Reagan administration, one in the Clinton.
"There's an old Navajo saying that fists in nicely with the White House investigation of possible treason within their ranks: 'It is impossible to awaken a man who is pretending to be asleep'" -- Jim Smith, Phoenix, Arizona.
Very wise saying, Jim.
CARLSON: Don't know what it means, but I like it.
CARVILLE: I like it. I think I know what it means.
CARLSON: Next up, Bob Kuttner of New York writes: "Hillary Clinton calling for a special prosecutor leaves me with only one word in mind: payback."
Not principle, payback. It's kind of pathetic.
CARVILLE: These Republicans always wanted to investigate Clinton, but they don't want to investigate Bush. I call that hypocrisy.
"Do Republicans realize how silly they sound when they say the Bush administration brought integrity back to the White House?" -- Bob Taylor, Milton, Pennsylvania.
Of course they realize how silly they are. But it doesn't bother them, because they've been silly all their life. If they weren't silly, they wouldn't be Republicans.
CARLSON: Paul Dici of Ellwood City, Pennsylvania, writes: "I am shocked, shocked! The Democrats are finally calling for the truth. Why didn't the truth matter when the Clintons were hiding the phone records during Whitewater? Why didn't the truth matter when Hillary was hiding the billing records? I could go on, but I think you get the picture."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Or stealing flatware. Good question. I don't know.
CARVILLE: Actually, the billing records were turned over. There was nothing in them.
CARLSON: Yes, sir. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Ross (ph). And I'm from Alexandria, Virginia.
What advice do you think Clinton would give President Bush about an independent counselor?
CARLSON: Stay away. Bad idea.
CARVILLE: They ought to put this guy -- at least what Congressman Burton said. I should think there are professionals in the federal government. I think there are professionals in the Justice Department. I think there are professionals in the CIA.
I'm actually not a person that reflexively hates people that work for the government. My daddy was a postmaster. So if they can put someone in that people have confidence in, I think it would be fine.
CARLSON: Yes. The idea that the attorney general is so deeply corrupt that he would...
CARVILLE: He is. He is.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: This attorney general, I would not trust him any further than I can throw him.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Whatever, but partisan ludicrousness apart -- that's such a vicious thing to say.
CARVILLE: He's the most partisan attorney general in history. I don't trust him at all.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Amy (ph) from Santa Monica, California. And I'm a Democrat. And the day I get back, I have to vote. And I'm completely torn. I do not know what to do.
CARLSON: Cruz Bustamante.
CARVILLE: Just vote no. Just -- like Nancy Reagan said, just say no.
CARLSON: Well, I think, if you're a Democrat, that leads me to believe you probably voted for Gray Davis in the first place, which means I think you ought to have to live with him for another couple years. So I would vote no, too.
(LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Because if you voted for Gray Davis, I think you should suffer the consequences.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow -- that would be Friday -- for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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Aired October 2, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: How many investigators does it take to find a leak?
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: I just have confidence in our Department of Justice and in our FBI to handle this appropriately.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: The close association between some in the Justice Department and officials in the White House really calls for a special counsel.
ANNOUNCER: And how does the senator feel about appointing a special counsel?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Today, one of Congress' most dogged investigators steps into the CROSSFIRE. We'll ask him why a dozen committees and subcommittees aren't already holding hearings on the CIA leak. It only happened way back in July.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
David Kay, the Bush administration's chief weapons of mass destruction hunter in Iraq, briefed Congress today. The hearings were behind closed doors, but it's no secret that Kay hadn't hasn't found much of anything.
In fact, officials say, David Kay and his team have found no banned weapons in Iraq. This led conservative columnist George Will to write -- quote -- "Why is it so difficult for the Bush administration to candidly acknowledge that much prewar intelligence about weapons of mass destruction was wrong? -- unquote.
When even George Will is sick of the lies, you know things are getting out of hand. But my question is this, America. Why should anyone be surprised to learn the Bush administration is not forthcoming? The real surprise would be, for once, if they ever told the truth.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: The partisan caste on that is not worth responding to. But I actually agree with George Will.
If this is true, in this report, when we finally see what is in it, and it turns out there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that means the Bush administration was wrong, Hillary Clinton was wrong, Hans Blix was wrong, Jacques Chirac was wrong. It's a big deal. And they ought to admit it.
CARVILLE: It means -- it means -- it means that they started a war that they fibbed to get us in and they had no plan to get us out. That is all it means.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Everybody believed.
CARVILLE: No, no. Nobody went to war -- nobody started a war over it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It was a bipartisan consensus that those weapons were there.
CARVILLE: No, it wasn't. Nobody started a war over it.
CARLSON: You thought they were there. I thought they were there. And if they're not there, shame on all of us.
CARVILLE: I certainly didn't any nuclear weapons were there, like Condoleezza Rice and Vice President Cheney said. Neither did you. You knew they were lying, too.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... chemical and biological weapons.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You knew they didn't have them.
CARLSON: Well, since becoming his party's front-runner, Howard Dean has spent much of his time responding to savage, unfair, and sometimes personal attacks. And here's the weird part. These attacks haven't come from Republicans, many of whom have deep affection for the scrappy Vermont fireplug. They have come from fellow Democrats.
As "The Washington Post" points out this morning, the Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt campaigns, each flailing badly, have devoted themselves to savaging poor Howard Dean. Dean's unforgivable crime? Having independent thoughts not previously approved by the DNC politburo. When Dean dared to suggest innovative ways of saving Social Security, Dean -- Kerry, rather, blasted Dean as being -- quote -- "on the wrong side of seniors."
Well, not only are attacks on Howard Dean counterproductive -- his supporters couldn't care less, for the most part -- but they're also shortsighted, because someday soon, very soon, Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt may want to be his vice presidential candidate.
CARVILLE: You know, what's stunning is, you sat in the 2000 campaign, when the Bush campaign accused Senator McCain of fathering a black child out of wedlock.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, they didn't. That's so stupid. That never happened, James. I was there.
CARVILLE: When President Bush stood on a plane with a veteran in South Carolina who said that McCain wasn't great. There was no more savaging that ever took place in any primary more than Bush people savaged John McCain. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
CARLSON: Myself?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: This is a politics disagree in the Democratic Party.
CARLSON: Oh, yes. I wrote a whole story about it at the time.
CARVILLE: When any Democrats suffers a personal problem, Rush Limbaugh has never offered any measure of compassion or forgiveness. In fact, he even took joy in other's downfall. Now the tables have turned.
In addition to losing his job at ESPN over a mean and insensitive comment, it is being reported today that Rush's name has come up in an investigation of alleged illegal prescription painkiller drugs that he thought -- that he could be addicted to the drugs himself. I know a lot of Democrats want to be gleeful about this. But I think that's the wrong response. That's the right-wing response.
The better one is that we have compassion. This is a human being. We should express compassion for him and hope that he gets treatment and gets rid of what could be a serious addiction to a very addictive drug. Rush, I hope you get well soon, if these stories are true. CARLSON: I don't think your fellow Democrats will take up your offer to be compassion and decent. I'm sure they're savaging him right now on the Internet for some addiction that probably is beyond his control, if it's true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, it is the Republicans like to savage and take such glee in other people's...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why don't you go to a site that has the tail number of Mel Carnahan's airplane? And right-wing Republican Missourian Kit Bond refused to fire this woman for 24 hours.
CARLSON: Actually...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Cruelty is at the heart of the Republican Party. And you know that.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Stupid comments like that aren't worth responding to.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You can't respond to them.
CARLSON: The disgusting Web site you just referred to has been pulled off the Internet and the person who put it up has been fired.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Yes, after 24 hours, after he first tried not to fire her. So you ought to...
CARLSON: Well, as "The Weekly Standard" pointed out yesterday, on a happier note, there is at least one reason for Californians to vote for Cruz Bustamante next Tuesday, his sister.
She is incredibly entertaining. Nao Bustamante is not only the youngest sibling of the lieutenant governor of that state, she is also a performance artist. Quote -- "Using the body as a source of image, narrative and emotion," she writes, "my performances communicate on the level of subconscious language, taking the spectator on a bizarre journey, cracking stereotypes and embodying them."
Well, a local newspaper described one of Ms. Bustamante's who's this way -- quote -- "She strapped on a burrito to herself and called for white men to come up on stage, take a bite out of the burrito, and absolve themselves of 500 years of the white man's guilt" -- end quote.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And it got zanier from there.
Well, Cruz Bustamante is not going to win, of course. And that's too bad, because his sister would make a terrific first sibling.
CARVILLE: You know...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what? I support Cruz Bustamante.
CARVILLE: I like this. I love this. You all go after to Joe Wilson's wife, Cruz Bustamante's sister.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You love to go after politician's family members.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? If you got a bone with somebody, pick it with themselves. Have the courage to stand up and pick it. Don't go after a man's wife. Don't go after a man's sister. Don't go after a man's children.
CARLSON: I'm not going to get in a shouting match.
CARVILLE: Be a man. Go toe-to-toe with them. That's what I say.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: James, I have you say, when you have a tiny brain and you can't respond to the actual argument, you scream the other person down. And that's pathetic.
CARVILLE: Attacking a man's sister.
CARLSON: I'm celebrating her, as you know.
CARVILLE: Yes, right.
CARLSON: Tracking down the leaker. Well, you'll never guess who likes the idea of a special counsel now. How times have changed.
We'll put the leak and the debate over who should investigate the leak in the CROSSFIRE next. We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Well, it looks like the CIA leak investigation will be expanding. The Associated Press reports that the Defense and State Department and possibly others are likely to be told to preserve documents, phone logs and e-mail, just as the people at the CIA and White House already have been.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate it this afternoon, Texas Democratic Congressman Martin Frost, along with Indiana Republican Congressman Dan Burton, the former chairman of the House Government Reform Committee.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, Tucker is attacking Cruz Bustamante sister. You attacked Mrs. Clinton more viciously than anybody on the Hill.
CARLSON: Oh, give me a break, James.
CARVILLE: Karl Rove has said that Ambassador's Wilson wife is fair game. What is it about the conservative philosophy that makes you want to attack people's sisters and spouses and not go -- is there some cowardly nature to being a conservative?
REP. DAN BURTON (R), INDIANA: Let me just say that you married a very wonderful woman. And I'm certainly not going to attack her.
CARVILLE: Thank you. I understand. I thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
BURTON: She's a very conservative Republican.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I'm not going to attack your wife either.
BURTON: I would like to -- well, my wife's deceased.
CARVILLE: OK.
BURTON: But I would like to congratulate you on doing that, because maybe that will make you think a little more conservatively in the future.
CARVILLE: No, it won't, because I believe, if you have a problem with somebody -- if you have a problem with Cruz Bustamante, you attack Cruz Bustamante. If you have a problem with Joe Wilson, you attack Joe Wilson. If you have a problem with Bill Clinton, you attack Bill Clinton.
What you do is, you leave people's family out of the fight. And I just -- I find it absolutely interesting that there's this great need to bring people's families into something. Why does Mrs. Wilson's job have anything to do with whether there was yellowcake in Niger or wherever it was?
BURTON: I think the only reason that's been raised is because she, evidently, recommended that her husband be sent over there, according to reports that I've seen.
And I think that's the reason that this issue is raised. But as far as wrongdoing is concerned, I think that the judge and the court remains out on that.
CARVILLE: You're not offended by what happened, are you?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, this is obviously a big deal, if what we're hearing is true. And that is that an undercover operative for the CIA was outed by someone in the administration. We all agree. But there's been some rushing to judgment on the part of Democrats.
I want to give you a prime and sort of appalling example. This is Congresswoman Jan scapegoating on our show yesterday. Here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: There is a former CIA operative who did say that she served for as many as three decades undercover and that now she's an agent at the CIA. I think there's little doubt that we're talking here about a serious crime that has been committed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: OK, now, Mrs. Wilson didn't serve for three decades at the CIA, because she's only 40, for one. For another thing, we didn't know what Mrs. Wilson did at the CIA. There's been no confirmation of what her job is. And everything hangs on that. So don't you think it is a bit over the top, irresponsible, maybe pretty outrageous, for a member of Congress to state that a crime has been committed, when she has no way of knowing that?
REP. MARTIN FROST (D), TEXAS: Tucker, there's a criminal investigation that has been launched by the Justice Department.
CARLSON: Right.
FROST: And unless she were in a sensitive position, they wouldn't have launched a criminal investigation.
Look, there's a lot of back and forth about this. This is not a question of Democrats and Republicans. This is a question of national security. And I notice that a Republican senator, Senator Specter, has just now urged that the attorney general disqualify himself because of his involvement with
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
FROST: So this is not a Democrat
(CROSSTALK)
FROST: ... partisan issue.
CARLSON: Are you suggesting -- and I'm not saying it is necessarily a partisan issue, and it pains me to see Democrats make it one.
FROST: The Republicans are raising it, too.
CARLSON: You appear to be suggesting that a criminal investigation is the same thing as a crime having been committed, as Ms. Schakowsky just said. They are two different things, aren't they?
FROST: I'm just saying that the Justice Department wouldn't have launched a criminal investigation unless this woman, Mrs. Wilson, were in a secretive position, a sensitive position, and that her name should not have been released.
Now, the question is -- the question is who released her name, not her? And I find this pretty extraordinary that people don't focus on the fact that this is a matter of national security and this is something that should not have been done in any administration, whether it's a Democratic or a Republican administration.
BURTON: We agree with that.
CARVILLE: Do you think they ought to just disband investigation? Would you favor...
BURTON: No, no. No, I don't. I think there should be an investigation.
John Dion over at the Justice Department has served there for 30 years. He's the man that's been charged with the responsibility of investigating this. He's a chief spy hunter. He's been doing this for a long time under Democrats and Republicans. He's a man of impeccable integrity. And he's the guy that's going to investigate this initially. And I don't think he's going to mess around with it.
CARVILLE: You don't think there ought to be an independent counsel?
(CROSSTALK)
BURTON: I find it interesting that the Democrats wanted to do away with independent counsels when investigating Bill Clinton.
CARVILLE: A special counsel, a special. You weren't for one under Bill Clinton, were you? You said the people in the Justice Department are perfectly -- is that your position, that the people in the Justice Department are perfectly capable...
BURTON: Well, the independent counsel statute had already been established.
CARVILLE: In 2000, it had expired. Did you favor an independent counsel -- a special counsel then?
BURTON: Well, Janet Reno continued
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So you didn't -- but now, you -- so I just want to get it straight. Now you don't support one. But if it's a Democrat in, you do support one.
BURTON: The Congress decided to do away with the independent counsel statute. And that was what happened.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did you favor one for Al Gore's fund-raising?
CARLSON: I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off, but this is ludicrous.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, you just said a minute ago that you have deep concern for national security. No doubt, you do. Former Ambassador Wilson went to Niger on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency. His findings were classified, as far as I know, as secret.
And yet he came back and wrote about those findings in "The New York Times," which appears to me evidence of a breach of classified information. Are you concerned about that?
FROST: Well, first of all, Tucker, let me make it clear, as you know, I voted for sending troops there. I voted with the president. And I find this whole thing to be offensive.
Now, the CIA -- as you know, the CIA requested an investigation of the publication of Mrs. Wilson's name. The CIA obviously, didn't -- was not concerned about the article he wrote in "The New York Times." They didn't request an investigation of him.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But I want to know if you're concern, when someone goes over on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He knows the law.
CARLSON: Hold on. No, no. Without being attorney, I think we can make moral judgments. And I'm interested in the congressman's.
FROST: I'm just pointing out that the CIA made the judgment here. The CIA is the one who requested the investigation into the release of Mrs. Wilson's name. They weren't concerned about anything that Mr. Wilson said when he came back, Ambassador Wilson, who was appointed an ambassador by a Republican administration.
The CIA is concerned about the integrity of its field -- of its operatives. They are concerned about the integrity and the safety of the people who work for them. And there should be an independent investigator, because -- let's get very clear on this -- Mr. Rove, in the White House, has a political relationship with the attorney general. He worked on two of the attorney general's campaigns when he was a candidate in the state of Missouri.
That's reason enough, under the laws that exist. There is a conflict of interest and there ought to be an independent counsel.
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, to show what a great guy I am, I'm going to let you respond to what Congressman Frost said.
BURTON: John Dion is called the ultimate spy catcher. He is not a Democrat or a Republican appointee at the Justice Department.
He's an independent who is in the public integrity section. And he's going to do a good job.
CARVILLE: You know...
BURTON: And if there's some question about whether or not he does a good job, then, of course, I think there should be an evaluation made on whether there should be an independent counsel -- or special counsel. But I think we should find out, first of all, if a crime was committed.
CARVILLE: It pains me to say this, but, to some extent, I agree with you. I think there are -- there are hundreds, thousands of career Justice Department employees who are extremely competent people. And if they're left alone to conduct an investigation, so be it. I thought that was the case during the Clinton administration. I think it's the case during the Bush administration.
FROST: But they report to the attorney general. That's the problem.
CARVILLE: Right. But maybe they can put a fireball between them. It might be something to look at.
CARLSON: I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We will be right back.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: A quick commercial break.
This debate will continue, because next, we'll enter "Rapid Fire," crisp questions, crisper questions, no time for a leaky argument.
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on what Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rush Limbaugh are saying about their potentially damaging news coverage.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire." Our guests are encouraged to leak or flood, maybe, but they will have to do it in as few words as possible. In the CROSSFIRE, Indiana Republican Congressman Dan Burton and Texas Democratic Congressman Martin Frost.
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, do you think the attorney general of the United States would subvert this investigation?
FROST: The statute provides that, if there's a conflict of interests, he doesn't be in the investigation. There is a conflict of interests. He worked for Karl Rove. I don't know what he would do. But the statute is very clear. He should not be involved in this.
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, how big will the budget deficit be this year?
BURTON: Well, is that part of this debate? I didn't know we were going to get into this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: How big do you think -- you're in the Congress. How big is it going to be?
BURTON: It is going to be substantial.
CARVILLE: Five hundred and fifty billion, is that a good guess?
BURTON: Well, it's going to up there. There's no question.
FROST: And that isn't even counting Social Security. It could be 750.
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, you were quoting in "The New Republic" in May as saying -- quote -- "I think Howard Dean has the appearance of being another George McGovern." Did you mean that as a compliment?
FROST: I think that Howard Dean is an anything candidate who has some weaknesses. I'm looking at other candidates.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: So he's a loser, in other words.
FROST: No. He's an interesting candidate. But I'm looking to other candidates who I find more appealing. If he's the nominee, I'll support him.
CARVILLE: Congressman Burton, do you share Tucker Carlson's and George Will's concern that there were no weapons of mass construction found in Iraq, after this administration hyped it? Or does that not bother you in the least?
BURTON: Well, if that's the case, I think it should be admitted.
But let me just say this. Saddam Hussein gassed his own people. He killed thousands of Kurds. He had weapons of mass destruction. And I think it something that was of great concern, not only in Iraq, but around the world.
CARLSON: Congressman, "The New York Times" today reports -- quote -- "Former Ambassador Wilson proudly showed off photographs of his wife, calling her a real-life Jennifer Garner, the actress who plays the spy on 'Alias" on ABC." Doesn't that make your squirm?
FROST: No, it doesn't make me squirm.
CARLSON: He's sound like kind of a loose cannon to me.
FROST: He's proud of his wife, just like I'm proud of my wife, who is a general in the United States Army.
CARLSON: OK.
BURTON: Your wife is a general? Man.
CARLSON: Congressman Frost, Congressman Burton, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: With all this talk of independent counsels, we wanted to know just how many officials independent investigations of the Clinton administration were there. Were there five, seven or 10? We'll have the results just ahead.
Plus, "Fireback," where it's your turn to fire back at us.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback."
But first, the answer to a trivia question about the 1990s that we posed a moment ago. And it was, how many special investigations were launched during the Clinton years. Was it five, said 18 percent, seven, said 66 percent, or 10, said 16 percent. It was, in fact, seven. People have great memories. I'm impressed.
CARVILLE: And all that that produced was, somebody got convicted of receiving illegal football tickets. There were 30 convictions in the Reagan administration, one in the Clinton.
"There's an old Navajo saying that fists in nicely with the White House investigation of possible treason within their ranks: 'It is impossible to awaken a man who is pretending to be asleep'" -- Jim Smith, Phoenix, Arizona.
Very wise saying, Jim.
CARLSON: Don't know what it means, but I like it.
CARVILLE: I like it. I think I know what it means.
CARLSON: Next up, Bob Kuttner of New York writes: "Hillary Clinton calling for a special prosecutor leaves me with only one word in mind: payback."
Not principle, payback. It's kind of pathetic.
CARVILLE: These Republicans always wanted to investigate Clinton, but they don't want to investigate Bush. I call that hypocrisy.
"Do Republicans realize how silly they sound when they say the Bush administration brought integrity back to the White House?" -- Bob Taylor, Milton, Pennsylvania.
Of course they realize how silly they are. But it doesn't bother them, because they've been silly all their life. If they weren't silly, they wouldn't be Republicans.
CARLSON: Paul Dici of Ellwood City, Pennsylvania, writes: "I am shocked, shocked! The Democrats are finally calling for the truth. Why didn't the truth matter when the Clintons were hiding the phone records during Whitewater? Why didn't the truth matter when Hillary was hiding the billing records? I could go on, but I think you get the picture."
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Or stealing flatware. Good question. I don't know.
CARVILLE: Actually, the billing records were turned over. There was nothing in them.
CARLSON: Yes, sir. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Ross (ph). And I'm from Alexandria, Virginia.
What advice do you think Clinton would give President Bush about an independent counselor?
CARLSON: Stay away. Bad idea.
CARVILLE: They ought to put this guy -- at least what Congressman Burton said. I should think there are professionals in the federal government. I think there are professionals in the Justice Department. I think there are professionals in the CIA.
I'm actually not a person that reflexively hates people that work for the government. My daddy was a postmaster. So if they can put someone in that people have confidence in, I think it would be fine.
CARLSON: Yes. The idea that the attorney general is so deeply corrupt that he would...
CARVILLE: He is. He is.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: This attorney general, I would not trust him any further than I can throw him.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Whatever, but partisan ludicrousness apart -- that's such a vicious thing to say.
CARVILLE: He's the most partisan attorney general in history. I don't trust him at all.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Amy (ph) from Santa Monica, California. And I'm a Democrat. And the day I get back, I have to vote. And I'm completely torn. I do not know what to do.
CARLSON: Cruz Bustamante.
CARVILLE: Just vote no. Just -- like Nancy Reagan said, just say no.
CARLSON: Well, I think, if you're a Democrat, that leads me to believe you probably voted for Gray Davis in the first place, which means I think you ought to have to live with him for another couple years. So I would vote no, too.
(LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Because if you voted for Gray Davis, I think you should suffer the consequences.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow -- that would be Friday -- for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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