Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
Will Gray Davis Survive?
Aired October 06, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: It's T-minus less than one day and counting.
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Now it's time we terminate Gray Davis.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Has Arnold Schwarzenegger made his case for a change, or will Governor Davis keep his job?
GOV. GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: Vote no on the recall.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Down to the wire in California -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
As the Terminator, Arnold Schwarzenegger, has stood up to a lot worse than political mud slinging, tomorrow, we'll find out if he survives the smear.
But first, the best political briefing on television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Now we know why so many Californians want to be on the do-not- call list. Tomorrow is recall Election Day in the Golden State. And if the phone rings in a Californian's home at the dinner hour tonight, it's likely to be a recorded phone call begging you keep Governor Gray Davis in office. It could be Senator Barbara boxer or, better still, Jesse Jackson or Barbra Streisand or even Bill Clinton.
But wait. One million California homes will get a blast from the past tonight, two phone calls from Al Gore.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Now, do they really think hearing from Al Gore at dinnertime will actually help Gray Davis?
(LAUGHTER)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, I don't know. I happen to love Al Gore. And so do most Californians. He beat George Bush out there by a million votes, beat him by so much that even the Supreme Court couldn't take California away from him.
So I think Al Gore is a great guy. I'm glad he's in there trying to help Gray Davis and trying to preserve democracy.
NOVAK: Well, don't think he's -- I thought you were a do-not- call guy. But you want to have your dinner hour upset by Al Gore saying, please vote for the most worthless, unpopular governor in the history of California?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: I'm not for commercial calls. Political calls, charity calls are fine.
Well, anyway, "The New York Times" has uncovered a heretofore secret document that proves the Bush administration misled the country about Iraq's ability to finance its reconstruction with oil revenue. Now, Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz all gave estimates of Iraqi oil output that greatly exceeded what a team of Pentagon specialists has said it was capable of producing.
So the Bushies, it turns out, made yet another claim that they knew, or at least should have known, was false. I saw Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz on TV recently. Is it me or have their noses grown as long as a telephone wire?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, they just -- you know, Paul, I have -- I've been a reporter in this town for 46 years. And for politicians -- and that's what they are -- in office to exaggerate, shocking. That is really shocking, when they exaggerate what the reality is.
BEGALA: Well, I guess it's shame on us for believing them from now on, because we know that...
NOVAK: You believed them, huh? I didn't.
BEGALA: Well, that's a good point. I didn't. You didn't.
(LAUGHTER) BEGALA: But a lot of people did. And they did have access to better information. The James Baker Institute at Rice University, no liberal group, warned us in advance.
NOVAK: Iraq will produce a lot of oil in time. You know that.
BEGALA: But it's not going to be enough to pay this bill. It's all coming out of my taxes and yours. Why not take it out of tax cuts for the rich, Bob? What do you think?
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: Gee, that's a novel idea coming from you.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: It's my turn.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Sorry.
Two years ago, General Wesley Clark was addressing a Republican fund-raiser with nothing but praise for George W. Bush. Since he has decided to run for president as a Democrat, Clark has come under Democratic fire. Senator John Edwards, running for president, over the weekend dinged senator -- General Clark -- quote -- "Being a Democrat is a commitment of the heart, not a matter of convenience for the moment" -- end quote.
Senator Joe Lieberman, another candidate, said that becoming a Democrat is a matter of -- quote -- "political convenience, not conviction" -- end quote. If Wes doesn't make it as a Democrat, maybe he can go back to being a Republican in 2008.
BEGALA: Look, I for one am very glad that General Clark looked at both parties. Here, he is 33 years in uniform. It would not have been right for him to be a partisan in uniform. I'm glad he looked at both parties and decided that my party, the Democratic Party, is the party that's for a strong America and for equal opportunity for everybody. And I welcome him to the party.
NOVAK: What do you think of Lieberman and Edwards dinging him, saying he's just a Democrat for convenience sake?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I think that's not a smart attack, candidly. I think you make a good point.
NOVAK: You think they're wrong?
BEGALA: I think it's not a wise attack. Better to fight it out on issue positions then when you signed up to be a Democrat. We want everyone to be Democrats, whether early or late.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, have you ever heard about one of those scientific studies that simply confirms the obvious, you know, like when scientists discovered too much beer can make you drunk?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, a new survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at Bob Novak's beloved university of Maryland reaches an even more obvious conclusion: People who watch Fox News are ignorant.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And people who watch CNN are smart.
The study found that fully 33 percent of viewers who watch Fox News believe America has found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And 67 percent of Fox's audience believes the U.S. has proven that Saddam Hussein was working closely with the al Qaeda terrorist group. Now, both, of course, are false. But you already knew that. You watch CNN.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Of course, Fox viewers can look on the bright side. If ignorance is indeed bliss, then Fox viewers are the happiest people in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I look at it a little differently than you do. I look at all those people watching Fox as potential converts to CNN.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: So I'm not going to attack them as being dummies.
BEGALA: Well, there is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. They're just ignorant, which means they haven't learned better. We can teach them. Come to CNN. They'll learn. Dumb means they're beyond help. I don't believe they are. They're smart enough to work the remote control. They'll find their way to CNN.
Well, it is headed down to the wire in California. Can Arnold Schwarzenegger overcome the recent wave of bad publicity and take the governor's office away from Gray Davis? A couple of red-hot California political pros will debate the recall with us in a minute.
And this programming note for tomorrow: Tucker Carlson and I will be headed out West, as CROSSFIRE goes to California for Election Day.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: With loudspeakers blaring a rock song with the words, "We're not going to take it anymore," Arnold Schwarzenegger is barnstorming California, asking voters to help him terminate Governor Gray Davis in tomorrow's recall election.
But the Davis campaign is trying hard to survive on last-minute smears against the Republican actor. Will the politics of personal destruction actually work?
To help us count down to the election, we are joined from San Francisco by the city's Democratic mayor, the honorable Willie Brown. And with us here in Washington -- excuse me -- is Congresswoman Mary Bono, Republican of California.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: All right, Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining us.
Congresswoman Bono, thank you as well. I know you're busy on the Hill. Taking time out was very gracious of you.
Let me first be consistent. I've worked, of course, for President Clinton when you helped to impeach him. I thought it was unfair to put out a bunch of charges, some of them not substantiated, some of them which he couldn't defend himself against. I think it's unfair against Arnold as well. And I've never raised these issues of women on this program.
Let me ask you to be that consistent. This here is what you said as a member of Congress when you voted to impeach President Clinton on the House floor. And I'm reading from your words -- quote -- "The central issue is whether the president," Clinton, "is above the law and whether sexual harassment and civil rights laws remain viable and effective protections for all Americans. Despite record numbers of women working to support their families, women are all too vulnerable in our society to sexual harassment. If Congress turns a blind eye to the president's behavior, then we are turning our back to those victims of sexual harassment."
You still feel that way? REP. MARY BONO (R), CALIFORNIA: Paul, what you're missing now is what you missed then, unfortunately. It wasn't about sexual harassment as much as it was about lying under oath.
BEGALA: But you said it was about sexual harassment. These are your words.
BONO: That was about the lawsuit that was pending, the civil lawsuit that had been filed by Paula Jones. That, to me, was very critical. I thought it was very important that the president not lie under oath. I still to this day believe in an oath.
And I think we ought to talk about -- if you want to talk about, if it's only about sex, which is how your side spun it, if it's only about sex, not about lying under oath, then I'd like to ask the question that
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... your words here, Congresswoman. You also said -- let me quote you again -- "We parents want our children to respect and admire our president and our leaders."
BONO: And that's exactly true. I agree. And I think the same thing of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
BEGALA: And your children, do you want them to admire Mr. Schwarzenegger, who is accused of many of the same behaviors as Bill Clinton was?
(CROSSTALK)
BONO: But what I like about Arnold Schwarzenegger is, he stood up and said, you know something? I did this. It was wrong. It was stupid. And I apologize.
That is different than what we saw back in 1998. We didn't see that. We saw everything but. And, to me, again, the oath of office is important -- I mean the oath under his deposition, when the president lied under oath. And that, we have to agree upon here. And I would like to ask you...
BEGALA: Of course, that was false. He never lied under oath.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Can I get in, please? Paul, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mayor Willie Brown, on an early -- I saw you -- if we are bringing up Bill Clinton -- I didn't know this show was about Bill Clinton, but, since it is, I will continue it. I saw you on an earlier program on another network, in which you said the difference between -- I don't -- I don't believe you said that, but I heard you, and you can contradict me if you want. You said the difference between President Clinton and Arnold Schwarzenegger is these women, one who says she was raped, one who said she was groped in the Oval Office was that they were consensual. Do you really think that is consensual sex on the part of Bill Clinton, and that's the difference?
WILLIE BROWN (D), MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: First and foremost, I don't think Bill Clinton is relevant in this question at all.
Bill Clinton is not running for governor of California. Bill Clinton is not presenting himself as being something...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Paul brought it up. That's why I'm bringing it up.
BROWN: Bill Clinton is not presenting himself in that fashion.
Let me also tell you, though, sexual harassment is wrong no matter who does it or where it's done. And there is no explanation. The business of saying, "I'm sorry; I didn't do it," etcetera, that's something that you ought to have to call -- have the voters give you an evaluation on. And believe me, it's legitimate.
In spite of Mr. Carville's comments, I don't think it was Democrats who initiated this information. This information came from "The Los Angeles Times" and their investigatory reporting and from ABC. On the air. It was not something done by Democrats. If Democrats had had this, let me tell you, they probably would have used it six or eight or 10 weeks ago. We politicians know how to do these things.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: It's always more effective in the last week. But I just want to read
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: It wasn't Democrats who did it. It was "The L.A. Times" who did it.
NOVAK: Let me give you "The Los Angeles Times" headlines for Thursday through Sunday. "Six Women Say Schwarzenegger Groped, Humiliated Them."
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: It's 15 now. It's 15, not six.
NOVAK: Wait a minute, Willie. "Radio Host Tells of Incident With Actor." Saturday, "Three More Women Allege Misconduct." Sunday, "Four More Women Go Public Against Schwarzenegger." That's a campaign, isn't it, Willie?
BROWN: No, it's not a campaign. It's the "L.A. Times" doing the job that has always been done by "The L.A. Times" on every candidate who had something in his background that was not coming out, that might have an effect on his character to hold the public office.
Let me tell you, you would prefer as a politician not to have this ever happen, because it's a bad eye for all of us. All of us who hold public office have to suffer through it. But once it does come out, it has to be vetted. And believe me, "The L.A. Times" is in fact vetting it. Mr. Schwarzenegger was just lucky. If he was in a regular race over a six- or seven-month period, as we normal politicians are required to do, I can assure you, he would probably have to withdraw, because I don't think it would stop at 15. I think that's just the beginning.
BEGALA: Mr. Mayor, let me bring Congresswoman Bono back into it.
In fact, it's not just Democrats and "The L.A. Times." It's also conservatives, principled conservatives, who have raised questions about Mr. Schwarzenegger's fitness for office.
Let me read you a quote from one, former communications director for Bill Simon, a man named K.B. Forbes. I'm told he also worked for Pat Buchanan. He says this: "Simply put, Arnold Schwarzenegger is unfit to be governor. GOP leaders playing trash politics attempted to fool the voters, including many conservatives in their own party, by hiding the candidate's three-decade sickness. But he's been exposed. The victims of Schwarzenegger's harassing, if not criminal behavior, had the courage to expose his actions and possibly help save the GOP from making the wrong choice."
So, aren't you guys barking up the wrong tree to try to blame Democrats?
BONO: Well, first of all, what we're doing and what you're doing right now, too, Paul, is really effective, that we're want talking about the future of California here.
And I'm not going to defend this. I'm not going to defend these allegations. I'm not going to say it's cool or it's OK to have the kind of behavior that Arnold Schwarzenegger may have had in the past. But I am going to say that he's still the best candidate that we have out there right now to lead the state of California into the future, without question. You know...
NOVAK: I have a question for the mayor. Mayor, Bob Mulholland, the California Democratic Party spokesman, back in August predicted what's happening. He said: "Schwarzenegger is going to find that, unlike a movie, a Hollywood movie set, the bullets coming at him. And in this campaign, they're going to be real bullets and he's going to have to respond to them."
These are the bullets that Mulholland was talking about, aren't they?
BROWN: I don't know.
Unfortunately, unlike you -- you're apparently able to project what Mr. Mulholland knew about or did not know about. I don't know. Mr. Mulholland is not relevant in this. "The L.A. Times" printed the information. Democrats are not relevant in this. ABC published it the information, with reference to other matters. Mr. Schwarzenegger should return -- respond to those persons. That's not Mulholland.
Mulholland couldn't have predicted it, because if Mulholland had this information, the day after Schwarzenegger made the announcement on "The Jay Leno Show," it would have been out there. Believe me, Arianna Huffington would have used it during the debates. It would have been an opportunity, I think, jumped at by most politicians. Mulholland didn't have it. Mulholland didn't use it. And they're not the bullets.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry, sir, we're going to have to take a quick break.
Congresswoman Bono, stay with us as well.
And as we come back, we will put our guest then into the "Rapid Fire," where we have fast questions, fast answers, no time for recalls.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
It's time now for our "Rapid Fire" segment, where the questions and answers come just about as fast as new charges about Arnold Schwarzenegger.
In the CROSSFIRE from San Francisco, the city's Democratic mayor, the honorable Willie Brown; and here with us in Washington, the honorable California Republican Congresswoman Mary Bono.
NOVAK: Mr. Mayor, in retrospect, wouldn't the Democrats have been better if you'd had a really good candidate in the recall, in case Governor Davis is recalled, somebody like Willie Brown, for example?
BROWN: Not at all. Gray Davis won the governorship and Gray Davis should be allowed to serve.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman Bono, in the earlier segment, you praised Arnold Schwarzenegger for apologizing for some of his conduct. Which of the acquisitions are true?
BONO: I don't know. We don't have time to sort out what might be true that he did apologize for and what has been entirely fabricated. I don't know.
NOVAK: Mr. Mayor, you used to be speaker of the Assembly. If Arnold Schwarzenegger is elected governor, should the Democrats who control the Assembly and the Senate, try to obstruct him or cooperate with him?
BROWN: Not at all. They should do exactly what was happening when I was there under both Deukmejian and Wilson. You've got to work with the governor. You've got to build a consensus for California to survive. It's not a one-man program, nor a one-party program.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman, yesterday on NBC News, Mr. Schwarzenegger promised Tom Brokaw, the anchorman on that network, that he'll answer all of these questions in detail after the election, if he wins. Will he keep that promise?
BONO: I think so.
BEGALA: I don't.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Mr. Mayor, Mr. Mayor, do you think that the Hollywood community ought to start a recall for Governor Schwarzenegger on Wednesday morning?
BROWN: No, not at all.
I think you ought to have to do something in your term of office before you are eligible for a recall. Recalls should be no different than impeachment. Davis should not be recalled because he has done absolutely nothing in this term of office.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman Bono, California Assemblyman Mark Leno, a Democrat from Mayor Brown's city of San Francisco, is introducing legislation to increase penalties for sexual harassment of women in the workplace. If Arnold becomes governor, would you advise him to sign that law?
BONO: Yes, I would, actually.
BEGALA: Good for you.
NOVAK: All right, what advice would you give to Gray Davis if, by some miracle, he survives the recall election, Mr. Mayor?
BROWN: Try to get your job as a personality person associated with the movies and maybe you'll be better. (BELL RINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: All right. Thank you very much. Willie Brown, you're always great.
And thank you, Mary Bono. Appreciate your coming.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: We want to know what you think: Are the latest groping allegations against Arnold Schwarzenegger a serious issue or just politics as usual? We'll have results after the break.
And in "Fireback," one viewer has some harsh words for his own party.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Right before the break, we asked our audience if they thought these new allegations against Arnold Schwarzenegger are serious or are they just politics? Here are the results. You probably won't be too surprised, Bob, to see most of the Democrats, 60 percent of Democrats, say it's a serious issue. But 84 percent of the Republicans say it's just politics. I suspect, if it were accusations against a Democrat, you'd have the reverse results.
NOVAK: That's very cynical on your part, I must say.
OK. Buzz Anderson of Solvang, California, says: "I am a lifelong Democrat/independent. And I have to be honest and say I am ashamed of my party for their unbelievable tactics in this California recall. This is just too convenient. The Democrats have lowered themselves to even lower than Republicans when it comes to slime-slinging. I am voting Arnold."
Way to go, Buzz.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I disagree. This is coming from conservatives. As I read a comment, it's coming from conservatives and from the news media, Buzz. Don't quit on the Democrats. It's not coming from my party.
John in Hiawassee, Georgia, in the beautiful Georgia mountains writes: "Paul, we missed you. Where you been? Probably on the left coast meeting with George Clooney and Catherine Zeta-Jones, planning the next recall petition for our great soon-to-be-new Governor Arnold."
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, yes, I was gone Thursday and Friday, John. Here's where I was, actually. I was in South Dakota with my buddies Dave Larry Stephan (ph) and my brother, David. There we are hunting pheasants in Sully County, South Dakota.
NOVAK: You shoot birds?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Yes, and we chase them with a bunch of dogs.
NOVAK: What will your liberal friends think?
BEGALA: Oh, those are the Stephan boys there. I don't know how liberal the Stephan brothers are in South Dakota. But they're good guys and they took care of me.
NOVAK: Captain Keith Cohen of Key West says: "If Governor Davis is so interested in how women are treated, then why would he have Jesse Jackson standing behind him on stage during a press conference?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Good question, Captain.
BEGALA: That's a -- you know what? No, I don't like that at all. That's a personal smear against a fine civil rights leader.
NOVAK: Oh, that's a smear! Oh, boy. That's a personal smear!
BEGALA: Reid Arrison of Metropolis, Illinois, writes: "Where may I find the petition to sign to recall the president? Seems to me the nation is in worse shape than California."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Question. Question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Kevin from San Francisco, California. I was wondering if you thought, considering the late hour of the claims against Schwarzenegger, it was anything more than a last-ditch effort by the Democrats?
NOVAK: The idea that "The Los Angeles Times," that worked so hard, as they say, to get all this information and it came just the last week, not a week too late, not a week too early, but just when it would hurt the most.
BEGALA: No, I'm sorry, but that's completely ignorant. Mayor Brown is a very experienced politician. And he says, if it was from the Democrats, they would have done it earlier, so that people couldn't say it was a last-minute smear. And I believe Mayor Brown. He's a very savvy politician. (APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: OK, question.
BEGALA: Yes, sir?
NOVAK: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm James from Hawaii.
I was wondering, if McClintock spoils the election for Schwarzenegger, is there any future for him in California politics?
NOVAK: No.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That would be state Senator Tom McClintock, a principled conservative who actually believes in conservative values, who is being abandoned by the hypocrites in the Republican Party. That's who you're talking about, Tom McClintock?
NOVAK: Left-wingers like Paul Begala and Mark Shields and Al Hunt are all saying how wonderful McClintock is. Be very careful of that kind of thing.
BEGALA: I admire someone who sticks to principle.
NOVAK: Yes.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, from the left, I am Paul Begala.
By the way, I will be in Los Angeles tomorrow with my pal Tucker Carlson, as CROSSFIRE goes to California to cover the recall.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. I'll be here.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 6, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: It's T-minus less than one day and counting.
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Now it's time we terminate Gray Davis.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Has Arnold Schwarzenegger made his case for a change, or will Governor Davis keep his job?
GOV. GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: Vote no on the recall.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Down to the wire in California -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
As the Terminator, Arnold Schwarzenegger, has stood up to a lot worse than political mud slinging, tomorrow, we'll find out if he survives the smear.
But first, the best political briefing on television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Now we know why so many Californians want to be on the do-not- call list. Tomorrow is recall Election Day in the Golden State. And if the phone rings in a Californian's home at the dinner hour tonight, it's likely to be a recorded phone call begging you keep Governor Gray Davis in office. It could be Senator Barbara boxer or, better still, Jesse Jackson or Barbra Streisand or even Bill Clinton.
But wait. One million California homes will get a blast from the past tonight, two phone calls from Al Gore.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Now, do they really think hearing from Al Gore at dinnertime will actually help Gray Davis?
(LAUGHTER)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, I don't know. I happen to love Al Gore. And so do most Californians. He beat George Bush out there by a million votes, beat him by so much that even the Supreme Court couldn't take California away from him.
So I think Al Gore is a great guy. I'm glad he's in there trying to help Gray Davis and trying to preserve democracy.
NOVAK: Well, don't think he's -- I thought you were a do-not- call guy. But you want to have your dinner hour upset by Al Gore saying, please vote for the most worthless, unpopular governor in the history of California?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: I'm not for commercial calls. Political calls, charity calls are fine.
Well, anyway, "The New York Times" has uncovered a heretofore secret document that proves the Bush administration misled the country about Iraq's ability to finance its reconstruction with oil revenue. Now, Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz all gave estimates of Iraqi oil output that greatly exceeded what a team of Pentagon specialists has said it was capable of producing.
So the Bushies, it turns out, made yet another claim that they knew, or at least should have known, was false. I saw Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz on TV recently. Is it me or have their noses grown as long as a telephone wire?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, they just -- you know, Paul, I have -- I've been a reporter in this town for 46 years. And for politicians -- and that's what they are -- in office to exaggerate, shocking. That is really shocking, when they exaggerate what the reality is.
BEGALA: Well, I guess it's shame on us for believing them from now on, because we know that...
NOVAK: You believed them, huh? I didn't.
BEGALA: Well, that's a good point. I didn't. You didn't.
(LAUGHTER) BEGALA: But a lot of people did. And they did have access to better information. The James Baker Institute at Rice University, no liberal group, warned us in advance.
NOVAK: Iraq will produce a lot of oil in time. You know that.
BEGALA: But it's not going to be enough to pay this bill. It's all coming out of my taxes and yours. Why not take it out of tax cuts for the rich, Bob? What do you think?
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: Gee, that's a novel idea coming from you.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: It's my turn.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Sorry.
Two years ago, General Wesley Clark was addressing a Republican fund-raiser with nothing but praise for George W. Bush. Since he has decided to run for president as a Democrat, Clark has come under Democratic fire. Senator John Edwards, running for president, over the weekend dinged senator -- General Clark -- quote -- "Being a Democrat is a commitment of the heart, not a matter of convenience for the moment" -- end quote.
Senator Joe Lieberman, another candidate, said that becoming a Democrat is a matter of -- quote -- "political convenience, not conviction" -- end quote. If Wes doesn't make it as a Democrat, maybe he can go back to being a Republican in 2008.
BEGALA: Look, I for one am very glad that General Clark looked at both parties. Here, he is 33 years in uniform. It would not have been right for him to be a partisan in uniform. I'm glad he looked at both parties and decided that my party, the Democratic Party, is the party that's for a strong America and for equal opportunity for everybody. And I welcome him to the party.
NOVAK: What do you think of Lieberman and Edwards dinging him, saying he's just a Democrat for convenience sake?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I think that's not a smart attack, candidly. I think you make a good point.
NOVAK: You think they're wrong?
BEGALA: I think it's not a wise attack. Better to fight it out on issue positions then when you signed up to be a Democrat. We want everyone to be Democrats, whether early or late.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, have you ever heard about one of those scientific studies that simply confirms the obvious, you know, like when scientists discovered too much beer can make you drunk?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, a new survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at Bob Novak's beloved university of Maryland reaches an even more obvious conclusion: People who watch Fox News are ignorant.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And people who watch CNN are smart.
The study found that fully 33 percent of viewers who watch Fox News believe America has found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And 67 percent of Fox's audience believes the U.S. has proven that Saddam Hussein was working closely with the al Qaeda terrorist group. Now, both, of course, are false. But you already knew that. You watch CNN.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Of course, Fox viewers can look on the bright side. If ignorance is indeed bliss, then Fox viewers are the happiest people in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I look at it a little differently than you do. I look at all those people watching Fox as potential converts to CNN.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: So I'm not going to attack them as being dummies.
BEGALA: Well, there is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. They're just ignorant, which means they haven't learned better. We can teach them. Come to CNN. They'll learn. Dumb means they're beyond help. I don't believe they are. They're smart enough to work the remote control. They'll find their way to CNN.
Well, it is headed down to the wire in California. Can Arnold Schwarzenegger overcome the recent wave of bad publicity and take the governor's office away from Gray Davis? A couple of red-hot California political pros will debate the recall with us in a minute.
And this programming note for tomorrow: Tucker Carlson and I will be headed out West, as CROSSFIRE goes to California for Election Day.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: With loudspeakers blaring a rock song with the words, "We're not going to take it anymore," Arnold Schwarzenegger is barnstorming California, asking voters to help him terminate Governor Gray Davis in tomorrow's recall election.
But the Davis campaign is trying hard to survive on last-minute smears against the Republican actor. Will the politics of personal destruction actually work?
To help us count down to the election, we are joined from San Francisco by the city's Democratic mayor, the honorable Willie Brown. And with us here in Washington -- excuse me -- is Congresswoman Mary Bono, Republican of California.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: All right, Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining us.
Congresswoman Bono, thank you as well. I know you're busy on the Hill. Taking time out was very gracious of you.
Let me first be consistent. I've worked, of course, for President Clinton when you helped to impeach him. I thought it was unfair to put out a bunch of charges, some of them not substantiated, some of them which he couldn't defend himself against. I think it's unfair against Arnold as well. And I've never raised these issues of women on this program.
Let me ask you to be that consistent. This here is what you said as a member of Congress when you voted to impeach President Clinton on the House floor. And I'm reading from your words -- quote -- "The central issue is whether the president," Clinton, "is above the law and whether sexual harassment and civil rights laws remain viable and effective protections for all Americans. Despite record numbers of women working to support their families, women are all too vulnerable in our society to sexual harassment. If Congress turns a blind eye to the president's behavior, then we are turning our back to those victims of sexual harassment."
You still feel that way? REP. MARY BONO (R), CALIFORNIA: Paul, what you're missing now is what you missed then, unfortunately. It wasn't about sexual harassment as much as it was about lying under oath.
BEGALA: But you said it was about sexual harassment. These are your words.
BONO: That was about the lawsuit that was pending, the civil lawsuit that had been filed by Paula Jones. That, to me, was very critical. I thought it was very important that the president not lie under oath. I still to this day believe in an oath.
And I think we ought to talk about -- if you want to talk about, if it's only about sex, which is how your side spun it, if it's only about sex, not about lying under oath, then I'd like to ask the question that
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... your words here, Congresswoman. You also said -- let me quote you again -- "We parents want our children to respect and admire our president and our leaders."
BONO: And that's exactly true. I agree. And I think the same thing of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
BEGALA: And your children, do you want them to admire Mr. Schwarzenegger, who is accused of many of the same behaviors as Bill Clinton was?
(CROSSTALK)
BONO: But what I like about Arnold Schwarzenegger is, he stood up and said, you know something? I did this. It was wrong. It was stupid. And I apologize.
That is different than what we saw back in 1998. We didn't see that. We saw everything but. And, to me, again, the oath of office is important -- I mean the oath under his deposition, when the president lied under oath. And that, we have to agree upon here. And I would like to ask you...
BEGALA: Of course, that was false. He never lied under oath.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Can I get in, please? Paul, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mayor Willie Brown, on an early -- I saw you -- if we are bringing up Bill Clinton -- I didn't know this show was about Bill Clinton, but, since it is, I will continue it. I saw you on an earlier program on another network, in which you said the difference between -- I don't -- I don't believe you said that, but I heard you, and you can contradict me if you want. You said the difference between President Clinton and Arnold Schwarzenegger is these women, one who says she was raped, one who said she was groped in the Oval Office was that they were consensual. Do you really think that is consensual sex on the part of Bill Clinton, and that's the difference?
WILLIE BROWN (D), MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: First and foremost, I don't think Bill Clinton is relevant in this question at all.
Bill Clinton is not running for governor of California. Bill Clinton is not presenting himself as being something...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Paul brought it up. That's why I'm bringing it up.
BROWN: Bill Clinton is not presenting himself in that fashion.
Let me also tell you, though, sexual harassment is wrong no matter who does it or where it's done. And there is no explanation. The business of saying, "I'm sorry; I didn't do it," etcetera, that's something that you ought to have to call -- have the voters give you an evaluation on. And believe me, it's legitimate.
In spite of Mr. Carville's comments, I don't think it was Democrats who initiated this information. This information came from "The Los Angeles Times" and their investigatory reporting and from ABC. On the air. It was not something done by Democrats. If Democrats had had this, let me tell you, they probably would have used it six or eight or 10 weeks ago. We politicians know how to do these things.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: It's always more effective in the last week. But I just want to read
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: It wasn't Democrats who did it. It was "The L.A. Times" who did it.
NOVAK: Let me give you "The Los Angeles Times" headlines for Thursday through Sunday. "Six Women Say Schwarzenegger Groped, Humiliated Them."
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: It's 15 now. It's 15, not six.
NOVAK: Wait a minute, Willie. "Radio Host Tells of Incident With Actor." Saturday, "Three More Women Allege Misconduct." Sunday, "Four More Women Go Public Against Schwarzenegger." That's a campaign, isn't it, Willie?
BROWN: No, it's not a campaign. It's the "L.A. Times" doing the job that has always been done by "The L.A. Times" on every candidate who had something in his background that was not coming out, that might have an effect on his character to hold the public office.
Let me tell you, you would prefer as a politician not to have this ever happen, because it's a bad eye for all of us. All of us who hold public office have to suffer through it. But once it does come out, it has to be vetted. And believe me, "The L.A. Times" is in fact vetting it. Mr. Schwarzenegger was just lucky. If he was in a regular race over a six- or seven-month period, as we normal politicians are required to do, I can assure you, he would probably have to withdraw, because I don't think it would stop at 15. I think that's just the beginning.
BEGALA: Mr. Mayor, let me bring Congresswoman Bono back into it.
In fact, it's not just Democrats and "The L.A. Times." It's also conservatives, principled conservatives, who have raised questions about Mr. Schwarzenegger's fitness for office.
Let me read you a quote from one, former communications director for Bill Simon, a man named K.B. Forbes. I'm told he also worked for Pat Buchanan. He says this: "Simply put, Arnold Schwarzenegger is unfit to be governor. GOP leaders playing trash politics attempted to fool the voters, including many conservatives in their own party, by hiding the candidate's three-decade sickness. But he's been exposed. The victims of Schwarzenegger's harassing, if not criminal behavior, had the courage to expose his actions and possibly help save the GOP from making the wrong choice."
So, aren't you guys barking up the wrong tree to try to blame Democrats?
BONO: Well, first of all, what we're doing and what you're doing right now, too, Paul, is really effective, that we're want talking about the future of California here.
And I'm not going to defend this. I'm not going to defend these allegations. I'm not going to say it's cool or it's OK to have the kind of behavior that Arnold Schwarzenegger may have had in the past. But I am going to say that he's still the best candidate that we have out there right now to lead the state of California into the future, without question. You know...
NOVAK: I have a question for the mayor. Mayor, Bob Mulholland, the California Democratic Party spokesman, back in August predicted what's happening. He said: "Schwarzenegger is going to find that, unlike a movie, a Hollywood movie set, the bullets coming at him. And in this campaign, they're going to be real bullets and he's going to have to respond to them."
These are the bullets that Mulholland was talking about, aren't they?
BROWN: I don't know.
Unfortunately, unlike you -- you're apparently able to project what Mr. Mulholland knew about or did not know about. I don't know. Mr. Mulholland is not relevant in this. "The L.A. Times" printed the information. Democrats are not relevant in this. ABC published it the information, with reference to other matters. Mr. Schwarzenegger should return -- respond to those persons. That's not Mulholland.
Mulholland couldn't have predicted it, because if Mulholland had this information, the day after Schwarzenegger made the announcement on "The Jay Leno Show," it would have been out there. Believe me, Arianna Huffington would have used it during the debates. It would have been an opportunity, I think, jumped at by most politicians. Mulholland didn't have it. Mulholland didn't use it. And they're not the bullets.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry, sir, we're going to have to take a quick break.
Congresswoman Bono, stay with us as well.
And as we come back, we will put our guest then into the "Rapid Fire," where we have fast questions, fast answers, no time for recalls.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
It's time now for our "Rapid Fire" segment, where the questions and answers come just about as fast as new charges about Arnold Schwarzenegger.
In the CROSSFIRE from San Francisco, the city's Democratic mayor, the honorable Willie Brown; and here with us in Washington, the honorable California Republican Congresswoman Mary Bono.
NOVAK: Mr. Mayor, in retrospect, wouldn't the Democrats have been better if you'd had a really good candidate in the recall, in case Governor Davis is recalled, somebody like Willie Brown, for example?
BROWN: Not at all. Gray Davis won the governorship and Gray Davis should be allowed to serve.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman Bono, in the earlier segment, you praised Arnold Schwarzenegger for apologizing for some of his conduct. Which of the acquisitions are true?
BONO: I don't know. We don't have time to sort out what might be true that he did apologize for and what has been entirely fabricated. I don't know.
NOVAK: Mr. Mayor, you used to be speaker of the Assembly. If Arnold Schwarzenegger is elected governor, should the Democrats who control the Assembly and the Senate, try to obstruct him or cooperate with him?
BROWN: Not at all. They should do exactly what was happening when I was there under both Deukmejian and Wilson. You've got to work with the governor. You've got to build a consensus for California to survive. It's not a one-man program, nor a one-party program.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman, yesterday on NBC News, Mr. Schwarzenegger promised Tom Brokaw, the anchorman on that network, that he'll answer all of these questions in detail after the election, if he wins. Will he keep that promise?
BONO: I think so.
BEGALA: I don't.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Mr. Mayor, Mr. Mayor, do you think that the Hollywood community ought to start a recall for Governor Schwarzenegger on Wednesday morning?
BROWN: No, not at all.
I think you ought to have to do something in your term of office before you are eligible for a recall. Recalls should be no different than impeachment. Davis should not be recalled because he has done absolutely nothing in this term of office.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman Bono, California Assemblyman Mark Leno, a Democrat from Mayor Brown's city of San Francisco, is introducing legislation to increase penalties for sexual harassment of women in the workplace. If Arnold becomes governor, would you advise him to sign that law?
BONO: Yes, I would, actually.
BEGALA: Good for you.
NOVAK: All right, what advice would you give to Gray Davis if, by some miracle, he survives the recall election, Mr. Mayor?
BROWN: Try to get your job as a personality person associated with the movies and maybe you'll be better. (BELL RINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: All right. Thank you very much. Willie Brown, you're always great.
And thank you, Mary Bono. Appreciate your coming.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: We want to know what you think: Are the latest groping allegations against Arnold Schwarzenegger a serious issue or just politics as usual? We'll have results after the break.
And in "Fireback," one viewer has some harsh words for his own party.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Right before the break, we asked our audience if they thought these new allegations against Arnold Schwarzenegger are serious or are they just politics? Here are the results. You probably won't be too surprised, Bob, to see most of the Democrats, 60 percent of Democrats, say it's a serious issue. But 84 percent of the Republicans say it's just politics. I suspect, if it were accusations against a Democrat, you'd have the reverse results.
NOVAK: That's very cynical on your part, I must say.
OK. Buzz Anderson of Solvang, California, says: "I am a lifelong Democrat/independent. And I have to be honest and say I am ashamed of my party for their unbelievable tactics in this California recall. This is just too convenient. The Democrats have lowered themselves to even lower than Republicans when it comes to slime-slinging. I am voting Arnold."
Way to go, Buzz.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I disagree. This is coming from conservatives. As I read a comment, it's coming from conservatives and from the news media, Buzz. Don't quit on the Democrats. It's not coming from my party.
John in Hiawassee, Georgia, in the beautiful Georgia mountains writes: "Paul, we missed you. Where you been? Probably on the left coast meeting with George Clooney and Catherine Zeta-Jones, planning the next recall petition for our great soon-to-be-new Governor Arnold."
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, yes, I was gone Thursday and Friday, John. Here's where I was, actually. I was in South Dakota with my buddies Dave Larry Stephan (ph) and my brother, David. There we are hunting pheasants in Sully County, South Dakota.
NOVAK: You shoot birds?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Yes, and we chase them with a bunch of dogs.
NOVAK: What will your liberal friends think?
BEGALA: Oh, those are the Stephan boys there. I don't know how liberal the Stephan brothers are in South Dakota. But they're good guys and they took care of me.
NOVAK: Captain Keith Cohen of Key West says: "If Governor Davis is so interested in how women are treated, then why would he have Jesse Jackson standing behind him on stage during a press conference?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Good question, Captain.
BEGALA: That's a -- you know what? No, I don't like that at all. That's a personal smear against a fine civil rights leader.
NOVAK: Oh, that's a smear! Oh, boy. That's a personal smear!
BEGALA: Reid Arrison of Metropolis, Illinois, writes: "Where may I find the petition to sign to recall the president? Seems to me the nation is in worse shape than California."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Question. Question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Kevin from San Francisco, California. I was wondering if you thought, considering the late hour of the claims against Schwarzenegger, it was anything more than a last-ditch effort by the Democrats?
NOVAK: The idea that "The Los Angeles Times," that worked so hard, as they say, to get all this information and it came just the last week, not a week too late, not a week too early, but just when it would hurt the most.
BEGALA: No, I'm sorry, but that's completely ignorant. Mayor Brown is a very experienced politician. And he says, if it was from the Democrats, they would have done it earlier, so that people couldn't say it was a last-minute smear. And I believe Mayor Brown. He's a very savvy politician. (APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: OK, question.
BEGALA: Yes, sir?
NOVAK: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm James from Hawaii.
I was wondering, if McClintock spoils the election for Schwarzenegger, is there any future for him in California politics?
NOVAK: No.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That would be state Senator Tom McClintock, a principled conservative who actually believes in conservative values, who is being abandoned by the hypocrites in the Republican Party. That's who you're talking about, Tom McClintock?
NOVAK: Left-wingers like Paul Begala and Mark Shields and Al Hunt are all saying how wonderful McClintock is. Be very careful of that kind of thing.
BEGALA: I admire someone who sticks to principle.
NOVAK: Yes.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, from the left, I am Paul Begala.
By the way, I will be in Los Angeles tomorrow with my pal Tucker Carlson, as CROSSFIRE goes to California to cover the recall.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. I'll be here.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
