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Do Latest Deaths in Iraq Undermine Case for Staying?; Interview With Don Novello

Aired October 13, 2003 - 16:30 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE...

Do the latest U.S. deaths in Iraq undermine the president's case for staying or make it stronger?

Plus, the comedian who gave us Father Guido Sarducci takes us from Bush to Bush.

Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Live, from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Today we're asking if the Bush administration's critics have any clue at all what should be done next in Iraq. And, if they do, why haven't they mentioned it?

That's our debate. We'll bring it to you right after the best political briefing in television, that would be our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Congressman Dennis Kucinich has shocked the political world by declaring that his bid for president is not, in fact, an elaborate factual joke. He means it. Kucinich, a practicing Vegas who has been endorsed by Willie Nelson, officially kicked off his presidential campaign today in Cleveland with a speech outlining his demand for what he described as "U.S. department of peace."

He went on to call for a complete withdraw of U.S. troops from Iraq, returning the country to the control of Saddam Hussein, as well as reparations for slavery. Though Kucinich's views are well within the Democratic mainstream, it's at all not clear at this point that he will in fact be his party's nominee. And yet, even if he doesn't win, there is at least one group whose heart has belonged to Dennis Kucinich from the very beginning, and that, of course, is the media.

Good luck, Dennis. Thanks for keeping it interesting.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: I saw him on Judy Woodruff's very fine program before ours, and he doesn't stress as much as you do the key to his candidacy, Willie Nelson.

CARLSON: I totally agree with you.

BEGALA: You know I'm from Texas. And in Texas, we call somebody who doesn't believe in Willie Nelson an atheist. I mean, I love Willie. And If he's good enough for Willie, by god...

CARLSON: Well, he could be secretary of agriculture, he could be IRS commissioner. He knows a thing or two about that.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I guess Willie's had his run-ins, I suppose, with the law.

CARLSON: But Dennis Kucinich, you've got to admit, as a vegan, is the perfect distillation of the Democratic ideal. I mean, he sort of embodies everything your party stands for.

BEGALA: What is a vegan?

CARLSON: I don't know. I'll explain it later.

BEGALA: I don't know.

Well, when then governor George W. Bush was on the ropes against John McCain, Reverend Pat Robertson made taped telephone calls to his right-wing supporters attacking McCain in those crucial primaries. Mr. Bush of course went on to defeat Senator McCain thanks largely to the support of the radical Pat Robertson right. Perhaps that's why Mr. Bush has been silent as Reverend Robertson called for exploding a nuclear weapon at the State Department, comments which might qualify as a terroristic threat.

Now, when I worked for President Clinton, I stood with him to welcome home the bodies of State Department officials who were killed by terrorists in Kenya and Tanzania. So I'm particularly sickened that our current president refuses to stand up to his right wing buddy when he encourages terrorist acts against other heroic Americans. Shame on President Bush.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Well, I don't know what -- what does the president have to do with it?

BEGALA: Shame on him.

CARLSON: I mean, Pat Robertson lost me when he blamed America for 9/11.

BEGALA: I agree. CARLSON: That blew me out of the...

BEGALA: But he didn't lose George W. Bush. If Jesse Jackson had said something like that, Bush would be on him like ugly on (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARLSON: Actually, Jesse Jackson has been embarrassing character for years and nobody says anything. But I will say, it wasn't Robertson's fault that McCain lost that primary. I covered it; that's just not true:

BEGALA: He helped Bush resurrect his candidacy.

CARLSON: He helped Bush, but he's not responsible.

Well, even in a Democratic primary, it's pretty hard to get to the left of Howard Dean, who's the only candidate in the race willing to defend partial birth abortion as a positive moral good. So instead, increasingly desperate rival campaigns have begun to attack the left wing fireplug as, yes, a secret Republican.

Recently, John Kerry and Dick Gephardt issued press releases slamming Dean for daring to deviate from the Democratic catechism on Medicare. How dare he have an original idea? The traitor.

That was the gist. Well, here's the interesting thing. Kerry and Gephardt's press releases were released within 18 minutes of each other. Coincidence? Nope.

As "The New York Times" reported yesterday, Dean's opponents are sharing their opposition research with each other. How pathetic. Rather than debate the issue, they attack the man. And also, how counterproductive. Dean in the end may be forced to choose Dennis Kucinich as his running mate.

BEGALA: There is nothing...

CARLSON: If you're not the front-runner you're not going to beat him.

BEGALA: They're not attacking the man. I'm not choosing sides. I love everybody. I'm for everybody. But it is legitimate to go back to '95 and to debate the different positions on Medicare.

CARLSON: They said he was against seniors. And that's slander and unfair. That's outrageous.

BEGALA: Well they said he endorsed Newt Gingrich's cuts in Medicare, which, if true, is an enormous problem for him in the Democratic Party.

CARLSON: But he's not against seniors. That's just unfair.

BEGALA: Well, three separate attacks on American troops have left one soldier dead and five wounded, a coalition spokesman said today. President Bush responded with a new offensive today. Not a military offensive to protect our troops, not a diplomatic offensive to relieve our soldiers' burdens, but a PR offensive.

Mr. Bush apparently blames the media for reporting on the brave soldiers who are sacrificing their lives every day under his disastrous failed policy in Iraq. Now, there's no more noble act than to give your life for your country. And I think the media have reported too little, not too much, on the heroism and sacrifice of our troops in Iraq. The news out of Iraq, Mr. President, is bad because your policy is bad.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: I have to say, Paul, from the very beginning, one of your complaints -- and, in fact, it's been my complaint too -- is that the Bush administration hasn't spent enough time explaining why we went and what we're doing there. And this I hope, and indications are it is, an attempt by the Bush administration to explain those very things. And I would think that you would welcome this explanation.

BEGALA: I would welcome something other than attacking the media, which is apparently what the president wants to do.

CARLSON: I'm totally opposed to that, but I haven't seen him attack the press. And when he does, I'll attack him back.

BEGALA: Well, on that we agree.

CARLSON: Well, we're going to put the Bush administration's Iraq policy, as well as the Democratic non-alternatives, in the CROSSFIRE right now. Joining us, former Maine Congressman Tom Andrews. He's the national director of the Win Without War Coalition. Also, Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

Welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Gentlemen, thank you.

Cliff, first, let me pick up right where Tucker and I we're debating. As you heard, our president today went on a PR offensive, telling us that everything is great, that things are really, really going well in Iraq and we're building new schools and we're building new hospitals, all at our expense. So if things are going so well, how many troops can we bring home, and how much of that $87 billion can we reduce it by?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: It's a very good question and it's a very important point. And it's what the president needs to address.

What we have to understand are two things. One is that what we've done in Iraq is to liberate 25 million people from a terrible, terrible regime.

(APPLAUSE) MAY: Rape, torture, murder, you don't approve of any of that stuff, I know. This was a good thing. Now, we're trying to do something of historical importance and really tough. We are trying to help the Iraqis build the institutions of representative democracy. We've done this only a few times in the past successfully. And many times we've failed.

But here's the one thing I'll criticize the Bush administration on. This will surprise you. And that is this: we've got to make it clear -- the president needs to make it clear that, at least in the Sunni triangle of Iraq, it is not a peacekeeping operation, it's a war. This is what war looks like in the 21st century. This is what a war against terrorism looks like.

Brave Americans will die, but they'll die fighting the former ruling class and the jihadists who support them from abroad. You and I know the Americans can't cut and run. We have to stay there and win this fight.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Now, Congressman Andrews, right after 9/11 you heard a lot of liberals say -- and I agreed with them -- that a military response to terrorism was not enough. That we needed to raise up democracies in the Middle East. With that in mind, that used to be the core of liberal internationalism. You remember it. It's dead now, unfortunately.

But with that in mind, take a look at this graphic. Since April in Iraq, 13,000 reconstruction projects have been undertaken, 40,000 new police officers on duty, 22 newspapers opened -- amen -- or universities, and 170 newspapers.

You would think liberals should be pleased about that. Instead they all sound like a more cynical version of Henry Kissinger. "We've got to leave. None of this is going to work." What's going on?

TOM ANDREWS, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, COALITION TO WIN WITHOUT WAR: Tucker, this is right out of the public relations machinery that we're getting from the White House.

CARLSON: Wait, no, no. No, wait. Hold on. There's some hard facts there. Please address them.

ANDREWS: Thirteen thousand reconstruction projects? What do you mean by that? What kind of projects? Are they successful? Are they not?

CARLSON: Let's start with 22 universities.

(CROSSTALK)

ANDREWS: Here's the problem.

CARLSON: Is that good? ANDREWS: We have now a person in charge of the reconstruction of Iraq who has spent her career attacking nation building. Said the United States should not be involved in it, should not be participating whatsoever in nation building, and has attacked it in every corner.

We have a military, a Pentagon, Defense Department, responsible not only for war, but for reconstructing the power grid, for restoring water, and for putting together a democracy and a constitution. We have it absolutely backwards, Tucker. This is an operation that demands an international community coming in, working cooperatively together with the tools that they know work.

(APPLAUSE)

ANDREWS: Not a military occupation led by a person who is against nation building or a Pentagon that knows about war fighting but not about constitution building. An international community that knows what it's doing, that's what we need to have in place in Iraq.

MAY: Wait a minute. Tom, where would you say the U.N. has successfully gone about the task of nation building? The problem with the United Nations is this, it's an organization made up of democracies and dictatorships. And the U.N. as an organization does not prefer one to the other.

If we leave Iraq, and it is still a despotic oppressive regime there, we won't have succeeded. What we need to do -- you won, you're right. Now Condoleezza Rice, now Republicans are in favor of nation building, which a lot of them weren't before. You should say, bravo, now you're with us and we support you in this.

ANDREWS: Now do it. Now...

MAY: We are.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Cliff, why is it -- you say it's historic, and I think it is. But I think it's an historic failure as opposed to historic successes that we had in Germany and Japan. Why is it that no Americans, none, were killed by hostile fire in the occupation and reconstruction of Germany and Japan, or Kosovo, and yet we're being slaughtered every day in Iraq? Why?

MAY: Let me give you a couple of good answers. First of all, the werewolves in Germany did kill Americans.

BEGALA: No. That's incorrect. That's historically false.

MAY: But the Germans were afraid. But a lot of the Germans were afraid if the Americans got out, the Soviets would come in. And they didn't want that. There were also Japanese who fought for 20 years after the Americans got in there.

But you're right. When Truman dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it sure sent a message. But we're going to have to fight there and...

BEGALA: How about Kosovo?

MAY: And Kosovo -- well, look, we've been in Kosovo a long time. We've been in Iraq now...

BEGALA: How many of our troops have been killed?

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: We've been in Iraq less...

BEGALA: Zero, Cliff. Zero, because we had the world with us there, right?

MAY: No. And you know what, you're right, we don't have the world with us. For example, the Syrians want us to fail. The Saudis want us to fail. The Iranians want us to fail. And they are all -- and al Qaeda wants us to fail, and Hamas and Hezbollah.

And they are all sending in troops, sending in terrorists to join with the Ba'athists who were the former ruling class of that country to see if they can take it back from us. We can't let them take it back from us or the Iraqis.

(APPLAUSE)

ANDREWS: Not to mention the fact that the problem with going it alone and attacking our allies and dismissing the United Nations as we have, you know it cost us $9 billion in the Iraq war. Why? Because we had 90 percent of that Iraq war in 1991, the Gulf War, being supported by the international community.

Now we're talking about $160 billion being borne not by the United Nations, not by our allies, but by the American taxpayer. And we have virtually 100 percent of the casualties being borne by Americans. That is not right. That's not fair, and it doesn't work.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Wait a second -- and our brave friends, the Poles. But let me just get right to something that just happened very recently. This is probably one of the most appalling political lapses and mistakes I've seen in a long time.

John Kerry, asked yesterday on ABC by George Stephanopoulos, "Will you vote for the $87 billion money for Iraq, $67 billion which goes to the troops?: Here's what he said. "It depends on whether we" -- stammer, stammer -- "I want to see what happens with all of them. I'm inclined not to."

Here you have a guy who voted to send the troops over there. And now he's inclined not to vote for the money to keep them afloat? It's obviously a response to Howard Dean, but isn't it suicide?

ANDREWS: Tucker, I used to serve in Congress. CARLSON: Yes, I know.

ANDREWS: The only leverage that Congress has on this president is the power of the purse.

CARLSON: Right.

ANDREWS: The Congress from the very beginning of this has just abdicated its responsibility, handed over a blank check, told the president he could do whatever he wanted to.

CARLSON: But isn't that a moral issue to do the right thing?

ANDREWS: No, but listen. It is a moral issue for the Congress to stand up and insist upon a system of checks and balances and demand that this administration be held accountable, which it has not. And if I were in Congress, I would vote no as well on the $87 billion until they came back with a plan to justify the $87 billion.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Tom, hang on just a second. Both of you keep your seats. We're going to come right back in just a minute. We'll bring these guests back for "RapidFire," where the questions come even faster than the bad news has come from Iraq.

And then, Father Guido Sarducci's letter writing campaign. You won't believe what this guy wrote to Dick Cheney. Stay with us and find out.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It's time now for the quickest Q&A session in politics. We call it "RapidFire."

Our guests are two of the quickest in American politics. Cliff May from the Foundation for the Defense of democracies, and former Democratic congressman, Tom Andrews, national director of the Win Without War Coalition.

CARLSON: Congressman Andrews, you said a second ago if you were still in Congress you wouldn't vote for the $87 billion. Your former colleague, Norm Dix, Democrat from Washington State, just returned from Iraq. Here's what he told "The Wall Street Journal." "If we give those generals the resources necessary, I think we can do this."

Is he lying or just crazy? What do you think?

ANDREWS: Well, it's deja vu all over again, Tucker. It's just like Vietnam. All we needed was more troops, more money, everything was going to be fine.

We had all kinds of happy talk about how great things were going. Things were a disaster. We're back at the same point. And Congress has got to draw the line and insist upon a workable plan that includes giving the United Nations and the international community genuine authority so that we can share the burden with them, share the casualties, and share the costs with them. Until they do that, we shouldn't give them $87 billion.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Cliff, who will be the first senior administration or cabinet official fired over this debacle as President Bush tries to cover it up -- or recover from it, I should say, for his reelection?

MAY: Let me make this proposal. We have a Senate permanent select committee on intelligence. Let them look at the whole thing.

Let them look on why Joe Wilson was selected to go to Niger. Let them look at what kind of report he came back with. Let them look at the whole thing. You're trying to make Iraq...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I just mean you have a disastrous policy. Shouldn't the president fire Rice, Rummy and Wolfowitz just for starters, and then keep going on?

(APPLAUSE)

MAY: On what basis? Look, we don't know who did anything. Who are you accusing of doing what, Paul, and on what basis?

BEGALA: I'm accusing the secretary of defense and his deputy and the national security adviser of leading us into a debacle in the desert.

MAY: A debacle in the desert? We liberated 25 million people. You agree to that? We are now trying to build a representative government. Do you agree we should stay and do that?

CARLSON: I'm going to have to get to Mr. Andrews in here. Despite or maybe because of the endless increasingly crazy hatred of Bush that's dominating your party, the president's approval ratings have gone up about six points in our new poll to 56 percent. Don't you think that the hate Bush strategy is really not going to work in the end?

ANDREWS: Well, all we've got to do -- you know it's not a matter of hating or liking George Bush.

CARLSON: Really?

ANDREWS: It's a matter of hating his policies, hating the deception.

CARLSON: But loving the man?

ANDREWS: Hating the manipulation of this country to get us into a quagmire in Iraq that he has no idea of how we're going to get out of. His policies are the things that are going to sink him.

CARLSON: OK. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Congressman Tom Andrews of Maine, Cliff May, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.

In just a minute, we'll get a visit from comedian Don Novello. He's the alter ego of both Father Guido Sarducci and compulsive letter writer Lazlo Toth. Back in 1996, he weighed in on who would be elected president someday.

Here's our quiz. Was it George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, or was it sadly Al Gore? We'll have the answer in just a moment.

Wolf Blitzer will bring us the last on Saddam Hussein's possible whereabouts. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Father Guido Sarducci is only one of the characters created by Don Novello. Another is the prolific letter writer Lazlo Toth. The latest collection of Lazlo's letters -- and they're laugh out loud funny -- as well as the hilarious replies from some of the unsuspecting politicians and corporate VIPs has just been published in a new book called, "From Bush to Bush,: The Lazlo Toth Letters."

Welcome please Don Novello to the CROSSFIRE.

DON NOVELLO, "FATHER GUIDO SARDUCCI": Thank you.

BEGALA: First, we asked the audience. You predicted -- in 1996, you wrote a letter to the governor of Texas, George W. Bush, and you told him -- we asked the audience who you thought -- you predicted would be the president in 1996. Most of the audience thought Hillary Clinton. But no, you actually predicted correctly that George W. Bush would become the president. Have you heard from him since then?

NOVELLO: Unfortunately, I think. But these people have said it. First he said Saddam, he can run but he can't hide. He is running good.

Couldn't find Saddam. Couldn't find Osama. Couldn't find Saddam. Can't find weapons of mass destruction.

Can't find anthrax. Couldn't find Chandra Levy. Only person these people have found is Tommy Chong. You know?

CARLSON: He's in jail on a bong charge.

NOVELLO: That's right. Water pipe.

CARLSON: Well you know what? At least...

NOVELLO: Can I say something?

CARLSON: Yes. NOVELLO: OK. If they put people that use water pipes in jail, half the Saudi royal family should be in jail with Tommy.

CARLSON: Well, and possibly for other reasons. This is actually a very funny book. And one of the things I learned in this book I already knew is that corporate America is really, really cowardly. I guess Jesse Jackson's career's testament to that.

But time and again, you write these outrageous, over the top letters to companies like Kimberly Clark (ph), that makes tissue paper, bugging them like that. And they write you back these awfully polite letters. "Dear Mr. Toth, thank you for harassing us again."

Does anybody ever tell you to buzz off?

NOVELLO: Not -- no, not really. Sometimes they don't write back. That's kind of a buzz off, subtly. But not directly.

CARLSON: But nobody ever said, "Stop bothering me or I'll put you in jail?"

NOVELLO: Well, you know I wrote to Haldeman (ph) years ago and I told him that his longer hair was because he lost his job. That's how it looked. That's the reason it was. And he said he could assure me the longer hair wasn't because he lost his job. And it had kind of an edge to it.

BEGALA: You also wrote, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, four star General Richard Myers of the U.S. Air Force. And you wrote him this -- you asked him this question. You said, "My new dentist went to school in Kabul and he still has relatives in Afghanistan." But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you asked him this: "Is it safe to eat goats or other animals that were killed in air strikes, and does it make any difference if they were killed by a bomb or by a missile?"

NOVELLO: That was one of the benefits of the war was that meat was more plentiful.

BEGALA: And he wrote you back, General Myers?

NOVELLO: He wrote back. And he didn't exactly mention goats. But he said the food problem was better.

And he didn't write back for a long time. Six months, because of the anthrax. He just, you know, put that in.

CARLSON: We're almost out of time, but I want to address your criminal record, Don. You were arrested at the Vatican for impersonating a priest. Did you do hard time?

NOVELLO: I did seven hours of hard time.

CARLSON: How was it?

NOVELLO: It was pretty scary.

CARLSON: So you never made it to it the Vatican showers or anything?

NOVELLO: No, I didn't stay that long enough. I was well bathed when I went in.

BEGALA: Well, I hope you'll be our CROSSFIRE correspondent to the papacy from now on. We'll send you back.

NOVELLO: Thank you. I'd like to do that. I have the costume, I'm ready to go.

BEGALA: Outstanding. Don Novello, alias Lazlo Toth. "From Bush to Bush" is the book.

I'm serious, it's extremely funny. You've got to get it. It's just out.

Well, one of our viewers actually wants one more candidate to jump into the presidential race. We will tell you who it is in our "Fireback" next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback," where you get to fire at us.

Joanne Miller takes her shot from Tacoma, Washington. She writes: "What the White House doesn't understand is this: we don't care about Iraq or the Iraqi people, we care about American jobs, schools and medical care for all. Duh."

Wow.

CARLSON: You know what? There used to be a lot of idealists on the other side and I always kind of respected that, that liberals are always calling attention to human rights abuses, et cetera. And now it's self-centered and yuppy centered. It's just kind of awful.

BEGALA: I think the combination of cutting a Head Start here at home and then financing things over there. I think the combination is so hypocritical.

CARLSON: Well, America is a rich country. And if we establish one democracy in the Middle East, good for us.

Stan Nethery (ph) of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, which is a country to the north, writes: "Michael Moore has it right. The U.S. ought to adopt Canadian standards and values and have a gentler, more peaceful nation for all the people. Michael should run for president."

Of Canada! You know what? They have a terrible problem with all the smart people coming south. I think that would increase the problem.

BEGALA: Richard Fowler in Portage, Michigan writes: "If I had been on TV and made the nuclear bomb at the State Department threat, John Ashcroft's boys would have been knocking on my door the next day and I'd be rotting in some high security cell."

Well, you are right. That may well be a felony. And it's certainly an outrage. And for President Bush to stand silent when his right wing buddies say this kind of garbage against our people is an out rage.

CARLSON: President Bush -- look, Paul, he has nothing to do with it. I'm not defending it.

BEGALA: Because he has no guts. He should stand up to the right win Reverend Roberts.

CARLSON: I'm not saying -- the conspiracy theory just blows my mind.

BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. See you tomorrow.

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Interview With Don Novello>

Aired October 13, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE...

Do the latest U.S. deaths in Iraq undermine the president's case for staying or make it stronger?

Plus, the comedian who gave us Father Guido Sarducci takes us from Bush to Bush.

Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Live, from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Today we're asking if the Bush administration's critics have any clue at all what should be done next in Iraq. And, if they do, why haven't they mentioned it?

That's our debate. We'll bring it to you right after the best political briefing in television, that would be our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Congressman Dennis Kucinich has shocked the political world by declaring that his bid for president is not, in fact, an elaborate factual joke. He means it. Kucinich, a practicing Vegas who has been endorsed by Willie Nelson, officially kicked off his presidential campaign today in Cleveland with a speech outlining his demand for what he described as "U.S. department of peace."

He went on to call for a complete withdraw of U.S. troops from Iraq, returning the country to the control of Saddam Hussein, as well as reparations for slavery. Though Kucinich's views are well within the Democratic mainstream, it's at all not clear at this point that he will in fact be his party's nominee. And yet, even if he doesn't win, there is at least one group whose heart has belonged to Dennis Kucinich from the very beginning, and that, of course, is the media.

Good luck, Dennis. Thanks for keeping it interesting.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: I saw him on Judy Woodruff's very fine program before ours, and he doesn't stress as much as you do the key to his candidacy, Willie Nelson.

CARLSON: I totally agree with you.

BEGALA: You know I'm from Texas. And in Texas, we call somebody who doesn't believe in Willie Nelson an atheist. I mean, I love Willie. And If he's good enough for Willie, by god...

CARLSON: Well, he could be secretary of agriculture, he could be IRS commissioner. He knows a thing or two about that.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I guess Willie's had his run-ins, I suppose, with the law.

CARLSON: But Dennis Kucinich, you've got to admit, as a vegan, is the perfect distillation of the Democratic ideal. I mean, he sort of embodies everything your party stands for.

BEGALA: What is a vegan?

CARLSON: I don't know. I'll explain it later.

BEGALA: I don't know.

Well, when then governor George W. Bush was on the ropes against John McCain, Reverend Pat Robertson made taped telephone calls to his right-wing supporters attacking McCain in those crucial primaries. Mr. Bush of course went on to defeat Senator McCain thanks largely to the support of the radical Pat Robertson right. Perhaps that's why Mr. Bush has been silent as Reverend Robertson called for exploding a nuclear weapon at the State Department, comments which might qualify as a terroristic threat.

Now, when I worked for President Clinton, I stood with him to welcome home the bodies of State Department officials who were killed by terrorists in Kenya and Tanzania. So I'm particularly sickened that our current president refuses to stand up to his right wing buddy when he encourages terrorist acts against other heroic Americans. Shame on President Bush.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Well, I don't know what -- what does the president have to do with it?

BEGALA: Shame on him.

CARLSON: I mean, Pat Robertson lost me when he blamed America for 9/11.

BEGALA: I agree. CARLSON: That blew me out of the...

BEGALA: But he didn't lose George W. Bush. If Jesse Jackson had said something like that, Bush would be on him like ugly on (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARLSON: Actually, Jesse Jackson has been embarrassing character for years and nobody says anything. But I will say, it wasn't Robertson's fault that McCain lost that primary. I covered it; that's just not true:

BEGALA: He helped Bush resurrect his candidacy.

CARLSON: He helped Bush, but he's not responsible.

Well, even in a Democratic primary, it's pretty hard to get to the left of Howard Dean, who's the only candidate in the race willing to defend partial birth abortion as a positive moral good. So instead, increasingly desperate rival campaigns have begun to attack the left wing fireplug as, yes, a secret Republican.

Recently, John Kerry and Dick Gephardt issued press releases slamming Dean for daring to deviate from the Democratic catechism on Medicare. How dare he have an original idea? The traitor.

That was the gist. Well, here's the interesting thing. Kerry and Gephardt's press releases were released within 18 minutes of each other. Coincidence? Nope.

As "The New York Times" reported yesterday, Dean's opponents are sharing their opposition research with each other. How pathetic. Rather than debate the issue, they attack the man. And also, how counterproductive. Dean in the end may be forced to choose Dennis Kucinich as his running mate.

BEGALA: There is nothing...

CARLSON: If you're not the front-runner you're not going to beat him.

BEGALA: They're not attacking the man. I'm not choosing sides. I love everybody. I'm for everybody. But it is legitimate to go back to '95 and to debate the different positions on Medicare.

CARLSON: They said he was against seniors. And that's slander and unfair. That's outrageous.

BEGALA: Well they said he endorsed Newt Gingrich's cuts in Medicare, which, if true, is an enormous problem for him in the Democratic Party.

CARLSON: But he's not against seniors. That's just unfair.

BEGALA: Well, three separate attacks on American troops have left one soldier dead and five wounded, a coalition spokesman said today. President Bush responded with a new offensive today. Not a military offensive to protect our troops, not a diplomatic offensive to relieve our soldiers' burdens, but a PR offensive.

Mr. Bush apparently blames the media for reporting on the brave soldiers who are sacrificing their lives every day under his disastrous failed policy in Iraq. Now, there's no more noble act than to give your life for your country. And I think the media have reported too little, not too much, on the heroism and sacrifice of our troops in Iraq. The news out of Iraq, Mr. President, is bad because your policy is bad.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: I have to say, Paul, from the very beginning, one of your complaints -- and, in fact, it's been my complaint too -- is that the Bush administration hasn't spent enough time explaining why we went and what we're doing there. And this I hope, and indications are it is, an attempt by the Bush administration to explain those very things. And I would think that you would welcome this explanation.

BEGALA: I would welcome something other than attacking the media, which is apparently what the president wants to do.

CARLSON: I'm totally opposed to that, but I haven't seen him attack the press. And when he does, I'll attack him back.

BEGALA: Well, on that we agree.

CARLSON: Well, we're going to put the Bush administration's Iraq policy, as well as the Democratic non-alternatives, in the CROSSFIRE right now. Joining us, former Maine Congressman Tom Andrews. He's the national director of the Win Without War Coalition. Also, Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

Welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Gentlemen, thank you.

Cliff, first, let me pick up right where Tucker and I we're debating. As you heard, our president today went on a PR offensive, telling us that everything is great, that things are really, really going well in Iraq and we're building new schools and we're building new hospitals, all at our expense. So if things are going so well, how many troops can we bring home, and how much of that $87 billion can we reduce it by?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: It's a very good question and it's a very important point. And it's what the president needs to address.

What we have to understand are two things. One is that what we've done in Iraq is to liberate 25 million people from a terrible, terrible regime.

(APPLAUSE) MAY: Rape, torture, murder, you don't approve of any of that stuff, I know. This was a good thing. Now, we're trying to do something of historical importance and really tough. We are trying to help the Iraqis build the institutions of representative democracy. We've done this only a few times in the past successfully. And many times we've failed.

But here's the one thing I'll criticize the Bush administration on. This will surprise you. And that is this: we've got to make it clear -- the president needs to make it clear that, at least in the Sunni triangle of Iraq, it is not a peacekeeping operation, it's a war. This is what war looks like in the 21st century. This is what a war against terrorism looks like.

Brave Americans will die, but they'll die fighting the former ruling class and the jihadists who support them from abroad. You and I know the Americans can't cut and run. We have to stay there and win this fight.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Now, Congressman Andrews, right after 9/11 you heard a lot of liberals say -- and I agreed with them -- that a military response to terrorism was not enough. That we needed to raise up democracies in the Middle East. With that in mind, that used to be the core of liberal internationalism. You remember it. It's dead now, unfortunately.

But with that in mind, take a look at this graphic. Since April in Iraq, 13,000 reconstruction projects have been undertaken, 40,000 new police officers on duty, 22 newspapers opened -- amen -- or universities, and 170 newspapers.

You would think liberals should be pleased about that. Instead they all sound like a more cynical version of Henry Kissinger. "We've got to leave. None of this is going to work." What's going on?

TOM ANDREWS, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, COALITION TO WIN WITHOUT WAR: Tucker, this is right out of the public relations machinery that we're getting from the White House.

CARLSON: Wait, no, no. No, wait. Hold on. There's some hard facts there. Please address them.

ANDREWS: Thirteen thousand reconstruction projects? What do you mean by that? What kind of projects? Are they successful? Are they not?

CARLSON: Let's start with 22 universities.

(CROSSTALK)

ANDREWS: Here's the problem.

CARLSON: Is that good? ANDREWS: We have now a person in charge of the reconstruction of Iraq who has spent her career attacking nation building. Said the United States should not be involved in it, should not be participating whatsoever in nation building, and has attacked it in every corner.

We have a military, a Pentagon, Defense Department, responsible not only for war, but for reconstructing the power grid, for restoring water, and for putting together a democracy and a constitution. We have it absolutely backwards, Tucker. This is an operation that demands an international community coming in, working cooperatively together with the tools that they know work.

(APPLAUSE)

ANDREWS: Not a military occupation led by a person who is against nation building or a Pentagon that knows about war fighting but not about constitution building. An international community that knows what it's doing, that's what we need to have in place in Iraq.

MAY: Wait a minute. Tom, where would you say the U.N. has successfully gone about the task of nation building? The problem with the United Nations is this, it's an organization made up of democracies and dictatorships. And the U.N. as an organization does not prefer one to the other.

If we leave Iraq, and it is still a despotic oppressive regime there, we won't have succeeded. What we need to do -- you won, you're right. Now Condoleezza Rice, now Republicans are in favor of nation building, which a lot of them weren't before. You should say, bravo, now you're with us and we support you in this.

ANDREWS: Now do it. Now...

MAY: We are.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Cliff, why is it -- you say it's historic, and I think it is. But I think it's an historic failure as opposed to historic successes that we had in Germany and Japan. Why is it that no Americans, none, were killed by hostile fire in the occupation and reconstruction of Germany and Japan, or Kosovo, and yet we're being slaughtered every day in Iraq? Why?

MAY: Let me give you a couple of good answers. First of all, the werewolves in Germany did kill Americans.

BEGALA: No. That's incorrect. That's historically false.

MAY: But the Germans were afraid. But a lot of the Germans were afraid if the Americans got out, the Soviets would come in. And they didn't want that. There were also Japanese who fought for 20 years after the Americans got in there.

But you're right. When Truman dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it sure sent a message. But we're going to have to fight there and...

BEGALA: How about Kosovo?

MAY: And Kosovo -- well, look, we've been in Kosovo a long time. We've been in Iraq now...

BEGALA: How many of our troops have been killed?

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: We've been in Iraq less...

BEGALA: Zero, Cliff. Zero, because we had the world with us there, right?

MAY: No. And you know what, you're right, we don't have the world with us. For example, the Syrians want us to fail. The Saudis want us to fail. The Iranians want us to fail. And they are all -- and al Qaeda wants us to fail, and Hamas and Hezbollah.

And they are all sending in troops, sending in terrorists to join with the Ba'athists who were the former ruling class of that country to see if they can take it back from us. We can't let them take it back from us or the Iraqis.

(APPLAUSE)

ANDREWS: Not to mention the fact that the problem with going it alone and attacking our allies and dismissing the United Nations as we have, you know it cost us $9 billion in the Iraq war. Why? Because we had 90 percent of that Iraq war in 1991, the Gulf War, being supported by the international community.

Now we're talking about $160 billion being borne not by the United Nations, not by our allies, but by the American taxpayer. And we have virtually 100 percent of the casualties being borne by Americans. That is not right. That's not fair, and it doesn't work.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Wait a second -- and our brave friends, the Poles. But let me just get right to something that just happened very recently. This is probably one of the most appalling political lapses and mistakes I've seen in a long time.

John Kerry, asked yesterday on ABC by George Stephanopoulos, "Will you vote for the $87 billion money for Iraq, $67 billion which goes to the troops?: Here's what he said. "It depends on whether we" -- stammer, stammer -- "I want to see what happens with all of them. I'm inclined not to."

Here you have a guy who voted to send the troops over there. And now he's inclined not to vote for the money to keep them afloat? It's obviously a response to Howard Dean, but isn't it suicide?

ANDREWS: Tucker, I used to serve in Congress. CARLSON: Yes, I know.

ANDREWS: The only leverage that Congress has on this president is the power of the purse.

CARLSON: Right.

ANDREWS: The Congress from the very beginning of this has just abdicated its responsibility, handed over a blank check, told the president he could do whatever he wanted to.

CARLSON: But isn't that a moral issue to do the right thing?

ANDREWS: No, but listen. It is a moral issue for the Congress to stand up and insist upon a system of checks and balances and demand that this administration be held accountable, which it has not. And if I were in Congress, I would vote no as well on the $87 billion until they came back with a plan to justify the $87 billion.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Tom, hang on just a second. Both of you keep your seats. We're going to come right back in just a minute. We'll bring these guests back for "RapidFire," where the questions come even faster than the bad news has come from Iraq.

And then, Father Guido Sarducci's letter writing campaign. You won't believe what this guy wrote to Dick Cheney. Stay with us and find out.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It's time now for the quickest Q&A session in politics. We call it "RapidFire."

Our guests are two of the quickest in American politics. Cliff May from the Foundation for the Defense of democracies, and former Democratic congressman, Tom Andrews, national director of the Win Without War Coalition.

CARLSON: Congressman Andrews, you said a second ago if you were still in Congress you wouldn't vote for the $87 billion. Your former colleague, Norm Dix, Democrat from Washington State, just returned from Iraq. Here's what he told "The Wall Street Journal." "If we give those generals the resources necessary, I think we can do this."

Is he lying or just crazy? What do you think?

ANDREWS: Well, it's deja vu all over again, Tucker. It's just like Vietnam. All we needed was more troops, more money, everything was going to be fine.

We had all kinds of happy talk about how great things were going. Things were a disaster. We're back at the same point. And Congress has got to draw the line and insist upon a workable plan that includes giving the United Nations and the international community genuine authority so that we can share the burden with them, share the casualties, and share the costs with them. Until they do that, we shouldn't give them $87 billion.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Cliff, who will be the first senior administration or cabinet official fired over this debacle as President Bush tries to cover it up -- or recover from it, I should say, for his reelection?

MAY: Let me make this proposal. We have a Senate permanent select committee on intelligence. Let them look at the whole thing.

Let them look on why Joe Wilson was selected to go to Niger. Let them look at what kind of report he came back with. Let them look at the whole thing. You're trying to make Iraq...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I just mean you have a disastrous policy. Shouldn't the president fire Rice, Rummy and Wolfowitz just for starters, and then keep going on?

(APPLAUSE)

MAY: On what basis? Look, we don't know who did anything. Who are you accusing of doing what, Paul, and on what basis?

BEGALA: I'm accusing the secretary of defense and his deputy and the national security adviser of leading us into a debacle in the desert.

MAY: A debacle in the desert? We liberated 25 million people. You agree to that? We are now trying to build a representative government. Do you agree we should stay and do that?

CARLSON: I'm going to have to get to Mr. Andrews in here. Despite or maybe because of the endless increasingly crazy hatred of Bush that's dominating your party, the president's approval ratings have gone up about six points in our new poll to 56 percent. Don't you think that the hate Bush strategy is really not going to work in the end?

ANDREWS: Well, all we've got to do -- you know it's not a matter of hating or liking George Bush.

CARLSON: Really?

ANDREWS: It's a matter of hating his policies, hating the deception.

CARLSON: But loving the man?

ANDREWS: Hating the manipulation of this country to get us into a quagmire in Iraq that he has no idea of how we're going to get out of. His policies are the things that are going to sink him.

CARLSON: OK. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Congressman Tom Andrews of Maine, Cliff May, thank you both very much. We appreciate it.

In just a minute, we'll get a visit from comedian Don Novello. He's the alter ego of both Father Guido Sarducci and compulsive letter writer Lazlo Toth. Back in 1996, he weighed in on who would be elected president someday.

Here's our quiz. Was it George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, or was it sadly Al Gore? We'll have the answer in just a moment.

Wolf Blitzer will bring us the last on Saddam Hussein's possible whereabouts. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Father Guido Sarducci is only one of the characters created by Don Novello. Another is the prolific letter writer Lazlo Toth. The latest collection of Lazlo's letters -- and they're laugh out loud funny -- as well as the hilarious replies from some of the unsuspecting politicians and corporate VIPs has just been published in a new book called, "From Bush to Bush,: The Lazlo Toth Letters."

Welcome please Don Novello to the CROSSFIRE.

DON NOVELLO, "FATHER GUIDO SARDUCCI": Thank you.

BEGALA: First, we asked the audience. You predicted -- in 1996, you wrote a letter to the governor of Texas, George W. Bush, and you told him -- we asked the audience who you thought -- you predicted would be the president in 1996. Most of the audience thought Hillary Clinton. But no, you actually predicted correctly that George W. Bush would become the president. Have you heard from him since then?

NOVELLO: Unfortunately, I think. But these people have said it. First he said Saddam, he can run but he can't hide. He is running good.

Couldn't find Saddam. Couldn't find Osama. Couldn't find Saddam. Can't find weapons of mass destruction.

Can't find anthrax. Couldn't find Chandra Levy. Only person these people have found is Tommy Chong. You know?

CARLSON: He's in jail on a bong charge.

NOVELLO: That's right. Water pipe.

CARLSON: Well you know what? At least...

NOVELLO: Can I say something?

CARLSON: Yes. NOVELLO: OK. If they put people that use water pipes in jail, half the Saudi royal family should be in jail with Tommy.

CARLSON: Well, and possibly for other reasons. This is actually a very funny book. And one of the things I learned in this book I already knew is that corporate America is really, really cowardly. I guess Jesse Jackson's career's testament to that.

But time and again, you write these outrageous, over the top letters to companies like Kimberly Clark (ph), that makes tissue paper, bugging them like that. And they write you back these awfully polite letters. "Dear Mr. Toth, thank you for harassing us again."

Does anybody ever tell you to buzz off?

NOVELLO: Not -- no, not really. Sometimes they don't write back. That's kind of a buzz off, subtly. But not directly.

CARLSON: But nobody ever said, "Stop bothering me or I'll put you in jail?"

NOVELLO: Well, you know I wrote to Haldeman (ph) years ago and I told him that his longer hair was because he lost his job. That's how it looked. That's the reason it was. And he said he could assure me the longer hair wasn't because he lost his job. And it had kind of an edge to it.

BEGALA: You also wrote, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, four star General Richard Myers of the U.S. Air Force. And you wrote him this -- you asked him this question. You said, "My new dentist went to school in Kabul and he still has relatives in Afghanistan." But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you asked him this: "Is it safe to eat goats or other animals that were killed in air strikes, and does it make any difference if they were killed by a bomb or by a missile?"

NOVELLO: That was one of the benefits of the war was that meat was more plentiful.

BEGALA: And he wrote you back, General Myers?

NOVELLO: He wrote back. And he didn't exactly mention goats. But he said the food problem was better.

And he didn't write back for a long time. Six months, because of the anthrax. He just, you know, put that in.

CARLSON: We're almost out of time, but I want to address your criminal record, Don. You were arrested at the Vatican for impersonating a priest. Did you do hard time?

NOVELLO: I did seven hours of hard time.

CARLSON: How was it?

NOVELLO: It was pretty scary.

CARLSON: So you never made it to it the Vatican showers or anything?

NOVELLO: No, I didn't stay that long enough. I was well bathed when I went in.

BEGALA: Well, I hope you'll be our CROSSFIRE correspondent to the papacy from now on. We'll send you back.

NOVELLO: Thank you. I'd like to do that. I have the costume, I'm ready to go.

BEGALA: Outstanding. Don Novello, alias Lazlo Toth. "From Bush to Bush" is the book.

I'm serious, it's extremely funny. You've got to get it. It's just out.

Well, one of our viewers actually wants one more candidate to jump into the presidential race. We will tell you who it is in our "Fireback" next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback," where you get to fire at us.

Joanne Miller takes her shot from Tacoma, Washington. She writes: "What the White House doesn't understand is this: we don't care about Iraq or the Iraqi people, we care about American jobs, schools and medical care for all. Duh."

Wow.

CARLSON: You know what? There used to be a lot of idealists on the other side and I always kind of respected that, that liberals are always calling attention to human rights abuses, et cetera. And now it's self-centered and yuppy centered. It's just kind of awful.

BEGALA: I think the combination of cutting a Head Start here at home and then financing things over there. I think the combination is so hypocritical.

CARLSON: Well, America is a rich country. And if we establish one democracy in the Middle East, good for us.

Stan Nethery (ph) of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, which is a country to the north, writes: "Michael Moore has it right. The U.S. ought to adopt Canadian standards and values and have a gentler, more peaceful nation for all the people. Michael should run for president."

Of Canada! You know what? They have a terrible problem with all the smart people coming south. I think that would increase the problem.

BEGALA: Richard Fowler in Portage, Michigan writes: "If I had been on TV and made the nuclear bomb at the State Department threat, John Ashcroft's boys would have been knocking on my door the next day and I'd be rotting in some high security cell."

Well, you are right. That may well be a felony. And it's certainly an outrage. And for President Bush to stand silent when his right wing buddies say this kind of garbage against our people is an out rage.

CARLSON: President Bush -- look, Paul, he has nothing to do with it. I'm not defending it.

BEGALA: Because he has no guts. He should stand up to the right win Reverend Roberts.

CARLSON: I'm not saying -- the conspiracy theory just blows my mind.

BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. See you tomorrow.

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Interview With Don Novello>