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CNN Crossfire
The $87 Billion Question
Aired October 15, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The $87 billion question.
SEN. BARBARA MIKULSKI (D), MARYLAND: Do we go it alone or do we find a way to share the burden of the cost of the war?
ANNOUNCER: Congress debates Iraq sticker shock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stationing troops overseas is very, very expensive.
Plus, it's root, root, root for which home team?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
And get out your wallets. President Bush says taxpayers have to chip in $87 billion to help clean up the mess he's made in Iraq. But before we pass out the hat or ask a couple congressmen for some alternatives, we'll give you something for free. Here comes the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Our deficit is soaring and Iraq's chances are dropping, but we can all feel good because the Bush campaign has raised a record $49.5 million in just the third quarter of this year. Of that $49.5 million, $38.5 was raised by just 285 men and women, the people President Bush calls his Rangers and Pioneers. These the people, "The Washington Post" points out, who have been the ones that benefit most from George Bush's policy.
This is the most putrid display of government I've ever seen. I've got a story for the press. Find out how many of the Rangers and Pioneers have kids serving in Iraq. You'll probably find out that the only service these people care about is how well George W. Bush can serve them and their self-interests. It's not enough that George W. Bush collected money hand over fist. Today, it's reported that he may be spending your money illegally.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Well, I'm going to gloss over the allegation of a crime. Are you mad at Bush because he's too aggressive or because he wasn't clever enough to rent out the Lincoln Bedroom? I'm confused.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I would prefer somebody staying in the Lincoln Bedroom than giving exemptions for polluting and then fill the air with carcinogens
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I agree, I agree. But that, as you put it, carcinogens are bad. But I just want to correct one thing you said. You said that those millions were raised by 285 people. That's, of course, illegal and untrue.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no. No, it's not; 285 people cannot give that much money. There's a limit of $2,000 per person.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I didn't say they gave it. I said they raised it. They can go out there and give it to the other person. And these are the people who benefit.
CARLSON: OK.
In February of 1992, Senator John Kerry took to the Senate floor to attack then President George W. (sic) Bush for grandstanding about his military experience during World War II. Kerry was incensed that Bush had mentioned Bill Clinton's draft-dodging. As Sam Dealey reports in today's "Hill" newspaper, Kerry thundered that military service should not -- quote -- "become a test of qualification for high office."
Well, so much for high-minded principles like those; 12 years later, Kerry is running an entire presidential campaign based on his own military service. Barely a sentence escapes from his mouth that doesn't allude or refer to his months in Vietnam or his status as a war hero. It's a little embarrassing. As usual, only sparky Howard Dean has had the courage to say anything about it.
The Vermont fireplug, who is hated, feared and opposed by the liberal establishment, released a statement accusing Kerry of using his war record for -- quote -- "political gain." Tellingly, Kerry doesn't deny it. He couldn't.
Now, look, I'm impressed by Kerry's war service. But, James, even you'll admit he's overplayed it to an embarrassing degree.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I don't think he's overplayed it. And, look, the man served his country. John McCain talked about it. People can talk about it. It's part of someone's life. It don't mean that you necessarily ought to be president, but I think it's part of somebody's experience. And he has every right to talk about it. It might offend you that he's served his country. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It doesn't offend me. I'm impressed by it. I admire that. But he overdoes it to a nauseating extent.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Right. I don't think so.
This commentator, along with many other people, continue to claim the Bush administration has lied to get into a war they had no idea how to get us out of. And now, of course, we're subjected to the usual charges: You can't say. You're supporting Saddam Hussein. You're not a patriot, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Well, we now have another person making the same claim. A gentleman by the name of Greg Theoman (ph) tells CBS' "60 Minutes" that, as the person responsible for analyzing Iraq's weapons threat for Secretary of State Powell, that Iraq possessed no imminent threat to anyone at the time his boss was laying out the case to the United Nations. According to Theoman, senior administration officials were -- quote -- "really blind and deaf to any kind of countervailing information the intelligence community would produce."
CARLSON: OK, well, that's a subjective judgment. He disagrees.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, the United Nations, everyone thought Iraq had WMDs.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He was not the janitor. He was the person that was the chief intelligence adviser to the secretary of state, that is now telling the world that the United States misled them. I don't want my country to do that. When my country says something, I want it to be based on solid facts.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: James, James, James, James, but I think it's a mistake. There was a legitimate disagreement. There is a legitimate disagreement today about what Saddam had and what he might have done with it. That's not the same as a lie. I don't know why you can't understand that. People disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You don't start a war based on something that shoddy.
CARLSON: OK, well, it's a lovely state with great food, good music, friendly people. It is truly, as the license plate boasts, a sportsman's paradise, and an unusually tasty cocktail based state also. There's a lot to like about the state of Louisiana, but, in the end, it's not quite America.
Exhibit A, from here on out, Louisiana will cover the costs of gastric-bypass surgery for select state workers. Gastric-bypass, in case you haven't had it, is a radical and radically expensive stomach operation popular with overweight weathermen, like NBC's Al Roker. It is dangerous and not always effective. But when it works, it's much easier than dieting. And now it's free.
Well, not to be outdone, Mississippi announced today that, from here on out, the state will cover silicone breast implants for eligible female students at Ole Miss on -- quote -- "aesthetic grounds."
CARVILLE: And I know some male -- they probably got some male students at Ole Miss that are willing to test them out to make sure they're
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually, that part was made up. But, James, even you, it isn't really part of America, much as I love Louisiana.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I love Louisiana desperately. As you know, it's my home state. But A.J. Ledman (ph) had it best. He said, Louisiana is really not the Southern United States. It's actually northern Costa Rica.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: And that's fine with me, too.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Exactly. Or western France, yes.
CARVILLE: And I think he meant it as a compliment. Now, we are as a people a little different. We have a little more fun. We like to eat a little bit.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You hate the French, but (SPEAKING FRENCH)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Love of life. I like that.
CARLSON: And then the state picks up the tab in the form of gastric bypass.
Well, next: the $87 billion question. How many members of Congress will dare to answer no? That's our debate.
And with the World Series coming up, we'll see whose side some of our favorite politicians are on.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Senate Democrats raised an interesting question today. If Iraq is only second to Saudi Arabia when it comes to oil, why can't we just loan them $87 billion for reconstruction instead of giving it away? Good question. We'll ask a couple of congressmen.
In the CROSSFIRE today are Connecticut Republican Christopher Shays and Tennessee Democrat Harold Ford.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Congressman, as you know, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts voted to send our soldiers over to Iraq. Now he says he's not sure he wants to pay them once they're there. I want to read you a particularly confusing quote of Senator Kerry's. Perhaps you can explain it. Here's what he said about the upcoming vote on the $87 million: "Unless this proposal is changed to better protect taxpayer dollars and shares the burden and risk of transforming Iraq with the U.N. and the rest of the international community, then I will oppose it."
What does that mean? Does that mean he's going to oppose it? Tell me what that means.
REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: I think it's clear. I think that his concern mirrors really most Americans' concerns, which is, our troops are there; we have to support them. I've been on the ground there in Iraq, and couldn't agree more with your assertion.
However, I couldn't agree more with John Kerry when he signals that this administration planned so poorly for what to do after we won the military, we made considerable progress on the military side, that, if we are unwilling to say to the taxpayers, No. 1, here is how much this is going to cost, here is how much you should be willing to spend over the next several years, and we're unwilling as an administration to reach out to the rest of the world.
I hear John Kerry saying, as a senator and a presidential candidate, that: I would have a different plan, a different approach, and one that would involve the rest of the world.
I think it's entirely consistent.
CARVILLE: Congressman Shays, beyond this administration's colossal ineptitude in areas like the federal budget deficit and areas for planning the aftermath in Iraq, that the whole thing has just been one complete fiasco in its incompetence, why would any American think that by giving these people any more money, that they would handle it any better? Has they've done anything to give us any confidence that they're capable of doing anything on anything?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: First, I totally reject the question in terms of -- no, I totally reject your analysis...
CARVILLE: There's no budget deficit?
(CROSSTALK)
SHAYS: I totally reject your analysis of ineptitude.
On a scale of one to 10, the war effort was an 11. On the scale of rebuilding Iraq, I think it's a 5. I think we have to do better. But I've been there twice. I think you have been there as many times as well. And it's much better than the general public hears from the press. We're doing a lot better.
We didn't have refugees. We didn't have a health epidemic. We didn't have a crash of their monetary system. We didn't have famines. And now we have six months in a process of rebuilding Iraq.
CARVILLE: If it's Switzerland, when are we going to be able to bring some of these soldiers back? We have 130,000. Can we just bring about 50,000 of them back to their families and send them $40 billion instead of 80, if what we're dealing with is Switzerland over there?
(APPLAUSE)
SHAYS: Let me just say, we're not going to be able to bring them back unless we spend the money as much on the economic redevelopment as on the military.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman, I'm sorry. I didn't ask you a follow-up, and I really should have. FORD: Sure.
CARLSON: I don't understand -- I still don't understand the John Kerry quote, OK? There's a vote coming up. He's obviously playing politics with it, attempting to atone for his vote originally to start the war.
FORD: No, I don't think that's true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on.
If we don't appropriate $20 million for reconstruction, $67 billion for our soldiers, what is the next step? Pull them home? What is Kerry's alternate plan? What is your alternate plan, specifically?
FORD: You should probably should have -- you should have the senator on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, how about -- give me your view. If we don't appropriate the money, what do we do?
FORD: In a perfect world, I'd love to see them split the request. The $67 billion for the troops should have gone already. We shouldn't be bickering over that. The $20 billion that's to go for reconstruction or, in some instances, just construction, we should have a serious and legitimate debate about whether it should be a loan, how to structure it, if it's going to be a grant, the kind of -- should say that -- the level of support we'll have to provide Iraq over the years.
I think some serious and, again, some credible points have been made.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But then how can you argue at the same time that the reconstruction is not going well, it's a quagmire, and yet we want to dither and debate about over this $20 billion.
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: Because we in this country have become accustomed to working with the world. If you look at the '91 Gulf effort, Americans only spent about 7 percent of the reconstruction cost.
And if you look back at the Marshall Plan, which this is being favorably compared to, I think there's some parallels, but it's not as neat a comparison as we'd like. America got a dollar-for-dollar match from the European nations. We're not getting that now.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: And we never will.
CARVILLE: Congressman, let turn to Senate Democrats, oil revenues, they have a huge supporter here. And I want to put up Mr. Wolfowitz's quote, what he told the world and the United States Senate on March the 27th of this year: "On a rough recollection, oil revenues, that country could bring between $50 billion and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon."
So, if they have all that money and it's going so well, why do they need $87 billion?
SHAYS: Well, I like Paul, but he was wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
SHAYS: Well, he's right on most things, but he's wrong on this.
It's probably, they're going to get between $12 and $19 billion a year. They have a colossal debt, due to the French and the Russians and the Germans. And so we're going to have to help them now. And, ultimately, we're looking to get out. And the sooner we help them now, the sooner we get out.
CARLSON: Congressman, as you know, by national polls, General Wesley Clark is right at the very top of the nine candidates running to become the Democratic nominee, mostly because he is such a straight shooter, such a strait forward guy. You know exactly what he's saying. He never reverts to euphemism.
In light of that, I want to read to you what he said when asked, how would you vote on the $87 billion question? Here's what he said. I'm quoting now: "I'm not ready to say I support that. Absolutely not." What the heck does that mean?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: "I'm not ready to say I support that. Absolutely not." This is sort of the biggest question going on today in American life. And that's his answer?
FORD: I don't think there's anything wrong with people thinking long and hard about this; $87 billion is a lot of money, when Chris and I -- and I imagine our districts have some similarities -- we have to go home and explain the principles and our superintendent that we don't have enough money for the No Child Left Behind Act, that our hospitals, some of my hospitals are closing, my state and its hospitals faced with a great challenge.
Again, this is something we should do. But I think we need to think long and hard about it. And I don't think there's anything wrong with a Democrat or Republican -- you ought to put Chuck Hagel's comments up there. He's indicated that we can't do this without international help.
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: You ought to put Richard Lugar's quote up there, the chair of
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But at least those are positions.
CARVILLE: Congressman Shays, let me give you the last word here. Go ahead. Make whatever point you like to close it out.
SHAYS: Well, absolutely we need the U.N. in here, as well as others. But the fact is, if they're not going to join us, we're going to have to do it without them.
CARLSON: OK. Well, we are...
FORD: We should ask them nicely.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Ask them nicely.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And on that note of comedy, Chris Shays, Connecticut Republican, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Harold Ford of Tennessee, star of "K Street" on HBO, thank you very much.
FORD: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer has the very latest developments on the Staten Island ferry accident that happened a little over an hour ago.
And then some of our favorite politicians show a little team spirit, but just whose side are they on? The perennial question, we'll address it again.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
On a metaphysical note, sometimes life demands you take a position, like during the baseball playoffs. Well, this creates a dilemma for politicians, who notoriously try to keep as many people as happy possible -- or as many people as possible happy. Both.
In Los Angeles to talk about how some current politicians are confronting this problem, one of the funniest people in America, Jon Macks. He's the author of the book, "How to be Funny."
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Mr. Max, in your previous life, you were a political consultant, and, as I remember, a pretty darned good one. And you're a baseball fan. Would you give me the estimated favorable to unfavorable ratio to this fan out in left field last night in Cook County, Illinois today?
JON MACKS, AUTHOR, "HOW TO BE FUNNY": I'd say probably one somewhat favorable, 99 percent very unfavorable. Let's put it this way. Gray Davis looks more popular in California right now.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Oh. Oh.
CARVILLE: You know how to hurt a guy, don't you?
MACKS: Absolutely.
CARLSON: How's this for dilemmas, Jon? Hillary Clinton grew up in suburban Chicago, lives in Washington, represents New York. Which team should she pretend to be for?
(LAUGHTER)
MACKS: That's -- Tucker, that's an ultimate dilemma for anyone in this situation. That's like asking a politician which is their favorite contributor. Very tough.
But my feeling on this is that, on any advice on this, I would say you have to go with your heart. You've got to take a look at the situation and pick the team from the state with the most electoral votes.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Jon, what is it about baseball that causes politicians to flock and try to be a part of it and everything like that? What's the connection here?
MACKS: Well, James, it's the all-American sport. I mean, Sosa, Matsui, Rivera, and Carsione (ph). This really goes right to our heart.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That does sound awfully all-American. Jon, the Red Sox, everyone wants them to win. Everyone knows they won't win. Is God against the Red Sox, do you think?
MACKS: I don't think, in this particular case, God is against the Red Sox, for the Red Sox, although, my guess is, after yesterday, he's -- God's probably wearing a Cubs hat right now. He cannot let this disaster unfold tonight.
CARVILLE: Tell us, Mrs. O'Leary's in Chicago started a fire. As I understand it, the billy goat, it is a billy goat that is the reason that the Cubs have not won a pennant since 1945? So if we had an election for mayor and it is Mrs. O'Leary and the billy goat, who would Chicago vote for right now?
MACKS: Personally, I think Mrs. O'Leary's cow in a landslide right now. Or the other way you could look at it, say, get the goat a good job. Get him out of there or get him to the game.
CARLSON: Well, speaking of Chicago, the Cubs haven't won, I don't think, since the last World War. That would be the Second World War. Lore says that, to build Wrigley Field, a seminary was torn down. Do you think that's the root of the curse against them or something more?
MACKS: I think it becomes self-fulfilling. It's like almost -- going back to my old days, it's like a bad campaign. Once things start to go bad, they continue to unravel in this particular case.
But if I were the Cubs right now, I would make sure that goat is there tonight. I would have the goat throw out the first pitch. I'd have the goat in the stands.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Unfortunately, knowing the Cubs, they might have him start the game tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
MACKS: I would watch.
CARLSON: Jon Max live from Los Angeles, author of the excellent, truly excellent -- I've read it -- book "How to be Funny," thanks very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
CARVILLE: Thank you, Jon.
MACKS: You bet.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Speaking of politics and baseball, we want to know which presidential candidate once had to wear a bulletproof vest when tossing out the first pitch at a baseball game. Was it Howard Dean? Was it Al Sharpton? Was it David Kucinich of Ohio? We'll see how our audience fares right after the break.
And in "Fireback," the free-Tommy Chong movement gathers steam, or smoke, or something.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback."
But first, the results of our audience trivia quiz, in which we asked which presidential candidate once threw out a first ball at a baseball game wearing protective body armor. Was it Howard Dean, say 25 percent, Al Sharpton, guessed 46 percent. Only 29 percent guessed the correct answer, Dennis Kucinich, the 5 foot, 7 vegan from Ohio who is about to clinch the nomination for the Democratic Party.
CARVILLE: Let me say this. At least Al Sharpton won one election in this whole thing, didn't he?
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: The CROSSFIRE election. I don't know what that portends.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He's won the president of our hearts.
First e-mail. Darrell Glaros of Greensboro, North Carolina writes: "For the safety of the foul ball fan in Chicago, I hope senior baseball officials don't leak his name to Bob Novak."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Pretty funny. That's pretty funny.
All right. "If President Bush wants to help Iraq, why doesn't he give them the money he's raised for his reelection and not my tax dollars?" -- David, Los Angeles, California.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I'll tell you what. We've got some pretty smart people writing in here today. I ought to just turn the show over to them.
CARLSON: Yes, we definitely do.
And from the pothead community, N. Ralston of Riverside, California, writes: "Right on, Tucker," spoken like a true dope smoker. "Tommy Chong should not be behind bars. Think how much money we would save if we released all nonviolent marijuana offenders. These people are only a threat to the gallon of ice cream in the freezer."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And you know what? I must say, I agree with that. And at least -- Tommy Chong wasn't even caught with marijuana. He wasn't -- he sold a pipe.
CARVILLE: If he was caught with marijuana, I don't think he ought to go to jail.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Right. But even then, you could say, well, he was caught with drugs. He was caught selling a pipe. And he's doing the better part of a year in federal prison. That's an outrage.
CARVILLE: Tucker, I couldn't agree with you more.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And he's a talented entertainer. I'm sorry. I'll admit it. I like Tommy Chong.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I don't know if I like him.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But it's the principle of the thing.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. And that's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 15, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The $87 billion question.
SEN. BARBARA MIKULSKI (D), MARYLAND: Do we go it alone or do we find a way to share the burden of the cost of the war?
ANNOUNCER: Congress debates Iraq sticker shock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stationing troops overseas is very, very expensive.
Plus, it's root, root, root for which home team?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
And get out your wallets. President Bush says taxpayers have to chip in $87 billion to help clean up the mess he's made in Iraq. But before we pass out the hat or ask a couple congressmen for some alternatives, we'll give you something for free. Here comes the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Our deficit is soaring and Iraq's chances are dropping, but we can all feel good because the Bush campaign has raised a record $49.5 million in just the third quarter of this year. Of that $49.5 million, $38.5 was raised by just 285 men and women, the people President Bush calls his Rangers and Pioneers. These the people, "The Washington Post" points out, who have been the ones that benefit most from George Bush's policy.
This is the most putrid display of government I've ever seen. I've got a story for the press. Find out how many of the Rangers and Pioneers have kids serving in Iraq. You'll probably find out that the only service these people care about is how well George W. Bush can serve them and their self-interests. It's not enough that George W. Bush collected money hand over fist. Today, it's reported that he may be spending your money illegally.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Well, I'm going to gloss over the allegation of a crime. Are you mad at Bush because he's too aggressive or because he wasn't clever enough to rent out the Lincoln Bedroom? I'm confused.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I would prefer somebody staying in the Lincoln Bedroom than giving exemptions for polluting and then fill the air with carcinogens
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I agree, I agree. But that, as you put it, carcinogens are bad. But I just want to correct one thing you said. You said that those millions were raised by 285 people. That's, of course, illegal and untrue.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no. No, it's not; 285 people cannot give that much money. There's a limit of $2,000 per person.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I didn't say they gave it. I said they raised it. They can go out there and give it to the other person. And these are the people who benefit.
CARLSON: OK.
In February of 1992, Senator John Kerry took to the Senate floor to attack then President George W. (sic) Bush for grandstanding about his military experience during World War II. Kerry was incensed that Bush had mentioned Bill Clinton's draft-dodging. As Sam Dealey reports in today's "Hill" newspaper, Kerry thundered that military service should not -- quote -- "become a test of qualification for high office."
Well, so much for high-minded principles like those; 12 years later, Kerry is running an entire presidential campaign based on his own military service. Barely a sentence escapes from his mouth that doesn't allude or refer to his months in Vietnam or his status as a war hero. It's a little embarrassing. As usual, only sparky Howard Dean has had the courage to say anything about it.
The Vermont fireplug, who is hated, feared and opposed by the liberal establishment, released a statement accusing Kerry of using his war record for -- quote -- "political gain." Tellingly, Kerry doesn't deny it. He couldn't.
Now, look, I'm impressed by Kerry's war service. But, James, even you'll admit he's overplayed it to an embarrassing degree.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I don't think he's overplayed it. And, look, the man served his country. John McCain talked about it. People can talk about it. It's part of someone's life. It don't mean that you necessarily ought to be president, but I think it's part of somebody's experience. And he has every right to talk about it. It might offend you that he's served his country. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It doesn't offend me. I'm impressed by it. I admire that. But he overdoes it to a nauseating extent.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Right. I don't think so.
This commentator, along with many other people, continue to claim the Bush administration has lied to get into a war they had no idea how to get us out of. And now, of course, we're subjected to the usual charges: You can't say. You're supporting Saddam Hussein. You're not a patriot, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Well, we now have another person making the same claim. A gentleman by the name of Greg Theoman (ph) tells CBS' "60 Minutes" that, as the person responsible for analyzing Iraq's weapons threat for Secretary of State Powell, that Iraq possessed no imminent threat to anyone at the time his boss was laying out the case to the United Nations. According to Theoman, senior administration officials were -- quote -- "really blind and deaf to any kind of countervailing information the intelligence community would produce."
CARLSON: OK, well, that's a subjective judgment. He disagrees.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, the United Nations, everyone thought Iraq had WMDs.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He was not the janitor. He was the person that was the chief intelligence adviser to the secretary of state, that is now telling the world that the United States misled them. I don't want my country to do that. When my country says something, I want it to be based on solid facts.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: James, James, James, James, but I think it's a mistake. There was a legitimate disagreement. There is a legitimate disagreement today about what Saddam had and what he might have done with it. That's not the same as a lie. I don't know why you can't understand that. People disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You don't start a war based on something that shoddy.
CARLSON: OK, well, it's a lovely state with great food, good music, friendly people. It is truly, as the license plate boasts, a sportsman's paradise, and an unusually tasty cocktail based state also. There's a lot to like about the state of Louisiana, but, in the end, it's not quite America.
Exhibit A, from here on out, Louisiana will cover the costs of gastric-bypass surgery for select state workers. Gastric-bypass, in case you haven't had it, is a radical and radically expensive stomach operation popular with overweight weathermen, like NBC's Al Roker. It is dangerous and not always effective. But when it works, it's much easier than dieting. And now it's free.
Well, not to be outdone, Mississippi announced today that, from here on out, the state will cover silicone breast implants for eligible female students at Ole Miss on -- quote -- "aesthetic grounds."
CARVILLE: And I know some male -- they probably got some male students at Ole Miss that are willing to test them out to make sure they're
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually, that part was made up. But, James, even you, it isn't really part of America, much as I love Louisiana.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I love Louisiana desperately. As you know, it's my home state. But A.J. Ledman (ph) had it best. He said, Louisiana is really not the Southern United States. It's actually northern Costa Rica.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: And that's fine with me, too.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Exactly. Or western France, yes.
CARVILLE: And I think he meant it as a compliment. Now, we are as a people a little different. We have a little more fun. We like to eat a little bit.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You hate the French, but (SPEAKING FRENCH)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Love of life. I like that.
CARLSON: And then the state picks up the tab in the form of gastric bypass.
Well, next: the $87 billion question. How many members of Congress will dare to answer no? That's our debate.
And with the World Series coming up, we'll see whose side some of our favorite politicians are on.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Senate Democrats raised an interesting question today. If Iraq is only second to Saudi Arabia when it comes to oil, why can't we just loan them $87 billion for reconstruction instead of giving it away? Good question. We'll ask a couple of congressmen.
In the CROSSFIRE today are Connecticut Republican Christopher Shays and Tennessee Democrat Harold Ford.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Congressman, as you know, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts voted to send our soldiers over to Iraq. Now he says he's not sure he wants to pay them once they're there. I want to read you a particularly confusing quote of Senator Kerry's. Perhaps you can explain it. Here's what he said about the upcoming vote on the $87 million: "Unless this proposal is changed to better protect taxpayer dollars and shares the burden and risk of transforming Iraq with the U.N. and the rest of the international community, then I will oppose it."
What does that mean? Does that mean he's going to oppose it? Tell me what that means.
REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: I think it's clear. I think that his concern mirrors really most Americans' concerns, which is, our troops are there; we have to support them. I've been on the ground there in Iraq, and couldn't agree more with your assertion.
However, I couldn't agree more with John Kerry when he signals that this administration planned so poorly for what to do after we won the military, we made considerable progress on the military side, that, if we are unwilling to say to the taxpayers, No. 1, here is how much this is going to cost, here is how much you should be willing to spend over the next several years, and we're unwilling as an administration to reach out to the rest of the world.
I hear John Kerry saying, as a senator and a presidential candidate, that: I would have a different plan, a different approach, and one that would involve the rest of the world.
I think it's entirely consistent.
CARVILLE: Congressman Shays, beyond this administration's colossal ineptitude in areas like the federal budget deficit and areas for planning the aftermath in Iraq, that the whole thing has just been one complete fiasco in its incompetence, why would any American think that by giving these people any more money, that they would handle it any better? Has they've done anything to give us any confidence that they're capable of doing anything on anything?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: First, I totally reject the question in terms of -- no, I totally reject your analysis...
CARVILLE: There's no budget deficit?
(CROSSTALK)
SHAYS: I totally reject your analysis of ineptitude.
On a scale of one to 10, the war effort was an 11. On the scale of rebuilding Iraq, I think it's a 5. I think we have to do better. But I've been there twice. I think you have been there as many times as well. And it's much better than the general public hears from the press. We're doing a lot better.
We didn't have refugees. We didn't have a health epidemic. We didn't have a crash of their monetary system. We didn't have famines. And now we have six months in a process of rebuilding Iraq.
CARVILLE: If it's Switzerland, when are we going to be able to bring some of these soldiers back? We have 130,000. Can we just bring about 50,000 of them back to their families and send them $40 billion instead of 80, if what we're dealing with is Switzerland over there?
(APPLAUSE)
SHAYS: Let me just say, we're not going to be able to bring them back unless we spend the money as much on the economic redevelopment as on the military.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman, I'm sorry. I didn't ask you a follow-up, and I really should have. FORD: Sure.
CARLSON: I don't understand -- I still don't understand the John Kerry quote, OK? There's a vote coming up. He's obviously playing politics with it, attempting to atone for his vote originally to start the war.
FORD: No, I don't think that's true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on.
If we don't appropriate $20 million for reconstruction, $67 billion for our soldiers, what is the next step? Pull them home? What is Kerry's alternate plan? What is your alternate plan, specifically?
FORD: You should probably should have -- you should have the senator on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, how about -- give me your view. If we don't appropriate the money, what do we do?
FORD: In a perfect world, I'd love to see them split the request. The $67 billion for the troops should have gone already. We shouldn't be bickering over that. The $20 billion that's to go for reconstruction or, in some instances, just construction, we should have a serious and legitimate debate about whether it should be a loan, how to structure it, if it's going to be a grant, the kind of -- should say that -- the level of support we'll have to provide Iraq over the years.
I think some serious and, again, some credible points have been made.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But then how can you argue at the same time that the reconstruction is not going well, it's a quagmire, and yet we want to dither and debate about over this $20 billion.
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: Because we in this country have become accustomed to working with the world. If you look at the '91 Gulf effort, Americans only spent about 7 percent of the reconstruction cost.
And if you look back at the Marshall Plan, which this is being favorably compared to, I think there's some parallels, but it's not as neat a comparison as we'd like. America got a dollar-for-dollar match from the European nations. We're not getting that now.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: And we never will.
CARVILLE: Congressman, let turn to Senate Democrats, oil revenues, they have a huge supporter here. And I want to put up Mr. Wolfowitz's quote, what he told the world and the United States Senate on March the 27th of this year: "On a rough recollection, oil revenues, that country could bring between $50 billion and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon."
So, if they have all that money and it's going so well, why do they need $87 billion?
SHAYS: Well, I like Paul, but he was wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
SHAYS: Well, he's right on most things, but he's wrong on this.
It's probably, they're going to get between $12 and $19 billion a year. They have a colossal debt, due to the French and the Russians and the Germans. And so we're going to have to help them now. And, ultimately, we're looking to get out. And the sooner we help them now, the sooner we get out.
CARLSON: Congressman, as you know, by national polls, General Wesley Clark is right at the very top of the nine candidates running to become the Democratic nominee, mostly because he is such a straight shooter, such a strait forward guy. You know exactly what he's saying. He never reverts to euphemism.
In light of that, I want to read to you what he said when asked, how would you vote on the $87 billion question? Here's what he said. I'm quoting now: "I'm not ready to say I support that. Absolutely not." What the heck does that mean?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: "I'm not ready to say I support that. Absolutely not." This is sort of the biggest question going on today in American life. And that's his answer?
FORD: I don't think there's anything wrong with people thinking long and hard about this; $87 billion is a lot of money, when Chris and I -- and I imagine our districts have some similarities -- we have to go home and explain the principles and our superintendent that we don't have enough money for the No Child Left Behind Act, that our hospitals, some of my hospitals are closing, my state and its hospitals faced with a great challenge.
Again, this is something we should do. But I think we need to think long and hard about it. And I don't think there's anything wrong with a Democrat or Republican -- you ought to put Chuck Hagel's comments up there. He's indicated that we can't do this without international help.
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: You ought to put Richard Lugar's quote up there, the chair of
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But at least those are positions.
CARVILLE: Congressman Shays, let me give you the last word here. Go ahead. Make whatever point you like to close it out.
SHAYS: Well, absolutely we need the U.N. in here, as well as others. But the fact is, if they're not going to join us, we're going to have to do it without them.
CARLSON: OK. Well, we are...
FORD: We should ask them nicely.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Ask them nicely.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And on that note of comedy, Chris Shays, Connecticut Republican, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Harold Ford of Tennessee, star of "K Street" on HBO, thank you very much.
FORD: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: After a quick break, Wolf Blitzer has the very latest developments on the Staten Island ferry accident that happened a little over an hour ago.
And then some of our favorite politicians show a little team spirit, but just whose side are they on? The perennial question, we'll address it again.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
On a metaphysical note, sometimes life demands you take a position, like during the baseball playoffs. Well, this creates a dilemma for politicians, who notoriously try to keep as many people as happy possible -- or as many people as possible happy. Both.
In Los Angeles to talk about how some current politicians are confronting this problem, one of the funniest people in America, Jon Macks. He's the author of the book, "How to be Funny."
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Mr. Max, in your previous life, you were a political consultant, and, as I remember, a pretty darned good one. And you're a baseball fan. Would you give me the estimated favorable to unfavorable ratio to this fan out in left field last night in Cook County, Illinois today?
JON MACKS, AUTHOR, "HOW TO BE FUNNY": I'd say probably one somewhat favorable, 99 percent very unfavorable. Let's put it this way. Gray Davis looks more popular in California right now.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Oh. Oh.
CARVILLE: You know how to hurt a guy, don't you?
MACKS: Absolutely.
CARLSON: How's this for dilemmas, Jon? Hillary Clinton grew up in suburban Chicago, lives in Washington, represents New York. Which team should she pretend to be for?
(LAUGHTER)
MACKS: That's -- Tucker, that's an ultimate dilemma for anyone in this situation. That's like asking a politician which is their favorite contributor. Very tough.
But my feeling on this is that, on any advice on this, I would say you have to go with your heart. You've got to take a look at the situation and pick the team from the state with the most electoral votes.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Jon, what is it about baseball that causes politicians to flock and try to be a part of it and everything like that? What's the connection here?
MACKS: Well, James, it's the all-American sport. I mean, Sosa, Matsui, Rivera, and Carsione (ph). This really goes right to our heart.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That does sound awfully all-American. Jon, the Red Sox, everyone wants them to win. Everyone knows they won't win. Is God against the Red Sox, do you think?
MACKS: I don't think, in this particular case, God is against the Red Sox, for the Red Sox, although, my guess is, after yesterday, he's -- God's probably wearing a Cubs hat right now. He cannot let this disaster unfold tonight.
CARVILLE: Tell us, Mrs. O'Leary's in Chicago started a fire. As I understand it, the billy goat, it is a billy goat that is the reason that the Cubs have not won a pennant since 1945? So if we had an election for mayor and it is Mrs. O'Leary and the billy goat, who would Chicago vote for right now?
MACKS: Personally, I think Mrs. O'Leary's cow in a landslide right now. Or the other way you could look at it, say, get the goat a good job. Get him out of there or get him to the game.
CARLSON: Well, speaking of Chicago, the Cubs haven't won, I don't think, since the last World War. That would be the Second World War. Lore says that, to build Wrigley Field, a seminary was torn down. Do you think that's the root of the curse against them or something more?
MACKS: I think it becomes self-fulfilling. It's like almost -- going back to my old days, it's like a bad campaign. Once things start to go bad, they continue to unravel in this particular case.
But if I were the Cubs right now, I would make sure that goat is there tonight. I would have the goat throw out the first pitch. I'd have the goat in the stands.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Unfortunately, knowing the Cubs, they might have him start the game tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
MACKS: I would watch.
CARLSON: Jon Max live from Los Angeles, author of the excellent, truly excellent -- I've read it -- book "How to be Funny," thanks very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
CARVILLE: Thank you, Jon.
MACKS: You bet.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Speaking of politics and baseball, we want to know which presidential candidate once had to wear a bulletproof vest when tossing out the first pitch at a baseball game. Was it Howard Dean? Was it Al Sharpton? Was it David Kucinich of Ohio? We'll see how our audience fares right after the break.
And in "Fireback," the free-Tommy Chong movement gathers steam, or smoke, or something.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time for "Fireback."
But first, the results of our audience trivia quiz, in which we asked which presidential candidate once threw out a first ball at a baseball game wearing protective body armor. Was it Howard Dean, say 25 percent, Al Sharpton, guessed 46 percent. Only 29 percent guessed the correct answer, Dennis Kucinich, the 5 foot, 7 vegan from Ohio who is about to clinch the nomination for the Democratic Party.
CARVILLE: Let me say this. At least Al Sharpton won one election in this whole thing, didn't he?
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: The CROSSFIRE election. I don't know what that portends.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He's won the president of our hearts.
First e-mail. Darrell Glaros of Greensboro, North Carolina writes: "For the safety of the foul ball fan in Chicago, I hope senior baseball officials don't leak his name to Bob Novak."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Pretty funny. That's pretty funny.
All right. "If President Bush wants to help Iraq, why doesn't he give them the money he's raised for his reelection and not my tax dollars?" -- David, Los Angeles, California.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I'll tell you what. We've got some pretty smart people writing in here today. I ought to just turn the show over to them.
CARLSON: Yes, we definitely do.
And from the pothead community, N. Ralston of Riverside, California, writes: "Right on, Tucker," spoken like a true dope smoker. "Tommy Chong should not be behind bars. Think how much money we would save if we released all nonviolent marijuana offenders. These people are only a threat to the gallon of ice cream in the freezer."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And you know what? I must say, I agree with that. And at least -- Tommy Chong wasn't even caught with marijuana. He wasn't -- he sold a pipe.
CARVILLE: If he was caught with marijuana, I don't think he ought to go to jail.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Right. But even then, you could say, well, he was caught with drugs. He was caught selling a pipe. And he's doing the better part of a year in federal prison. That's an outrage.
CARVILLE: Tucker, I couldn't agree with you more.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And he's a talented entertainer. I'm sorry. I'll admit it. I like Tommy Chong.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I don't know if I like him.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But it's the principle of the thing.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. And that's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
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