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CNN Crossfire
Will Schwarzenegger Win Help Bush in 2004?
Aired October 16, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the president and the best supporting actor.
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR-ELECT: There is no greater ally that this Golden State has in Washington than our president.
ANNOUNCER: Does Arnold Schwarzenegger's victory this year make it easier for President Bush to be California's leading man next year?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Today, we enjoyed yet another aftershock from California's political earthquake, as President Bush paid a visit to Republican governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger. Amazing. Our debate, will California shake into the Bush column in 2004?
But first, the best daily earthquake on television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, Bill Clinton has done a lot of brazen things over the years. But nothing quite comes close to a speech he gave yesterday in which he claimed that, at the end of his term, he warned President Bush that Osama bin Laden was the single greatest threat to national security. Bush, he implied, ignored him, hence 9/11.
Think about this for a minute. After doing almost nothing to respond to al Qaeda's attacks on the World Trade Center in 1993, the Saudi national guard training center in Riyadh in 1995, the Khobar Towers in 1996, the American embassies in Africa in the 1998, and the Cole attack in 2000, not to mention his lack of credible response to bin Laden's declarations of war against the U.S. in 1996 and yet again in 1998, Clinton is now claiming that al Qaeda was actually his No. 1 security priority.
Well, this would be shocking, if it weren't so perfectly Clinton. And it is perfectly Clinton.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, Tucker, I worked in that administration. I happen to know that it was the top priority there. Now, don't just take my word for it. Don Carrick (ph), a lieutenant general, a three-star general who served both Clinton and President Bush Jr., said this: "Clinton's advisers met nearly weekly on how to stop bin Laden. I did not detect that kind of focus from the Bush administration."
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: This is why they're stonewalling the 9/11 Commission. This is why they won't release the briefing on August 6 of '01, when Mr. Bush was warned that bin Laden was trying to hijack aircraft.
CARLSON: OK, you're trying to filibuster -- you're trying to filibuster me. I understand that.
BEGALA: I'm just trying to answer all the false things you said about my former boss.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: No, you're not.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: The fact -- the fact is that he didn't respond adequately. And for him to attack a sitting president for, like, the 50th time since Bush was elected is outrageous. Be quiet and go away.
BEGALA: For this president to have ignored the threat from bin Laden, which was explained to him
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... was an outrage.
CARLSON: Totally Orwellian, Paul. No believes what you say.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, "The New York Times" reports today that a cross- section of experienced criminal prosecutors, including political supporters of Attorney General John Ashcroft, are criticizing Mr. Ashcroft for maintaining control of the investigation of the Bush White House's alleged leak of the name of the CIA agent.
Ashcroft, of course, did nothing for 10 weeks after the agent's name was leaked to the press and then, inexplicably, waited for almost a day after the news investigation was reported before ordering White House aides to secure their records. Now, critics note that this just might have given a criminal ample time to cover his tracks.
Let's face it. Asking John Ashcroft to investigate the Bush White House is like asking Rush Limbaugh to investigate a drugstore chain.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, that, in fact, John Ashcroft is not investigating the Bush White House.
And, by the way, give Rush Limbaugh a pass. The guy's a dope addict. He's in rehab. Leave him alone.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But he's not investigating it. The FBI is. And if you're implying that the FBI -- which may be incompetent, but is also corrupt, that's an allegation of a crime and a very serious to say.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: John Ashcroft has a fundamental conflict of interest. He should turn this over to an independent investigator, because it's not credible. Bush has already told him, we're never going to find the leakers. What do you think that means, when the president of the United States already announces that we're not going to find
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK, Paul, the president of the United States and the attorney general don't tell the FBI what to do at that level.
BEGALA: They work for Ashcroft. So appoint an independent counsel, then.
CARLSON: I don't think the FBI is that corrupt, to be totally honest.
Well, retired General Wesley Clark has been a registered Democrat for about 20 minutes and a presidential candidate for even less time.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And, already, his struggling campaign is coming under fire for being a corrupt, unaccountable creation of the Washington Beltway. And that's his friends talking.
Clark's former campaign manager, Donnie Fowler -- yes, Clark already has a former campaign manager -- has written a letter to his old boss, complaining that the general has begun to -- quote -- "adopt some bad habits of past presidential efforts," meaning, of course, Al Gore.
According to a story in today's "Roll Call," Fowler accuses Clark of staffing his campaign with shifty Beltway lobbyists, who refuse to quit their day jobs for fear Clark will lose. And that's a realistic fear. Fowler sums up -- quote -- "A Washington approach to policy and politics severely handicaps your ability to run a campaign that connects to voters in the states." Well, yes, it does, and that's good news for the rest of us.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So this is now what you're reduced to?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me make my point.
General Clark has given a series of policy statements. Why not read them, argue them, dispute them, instead of some disgruntled former staffer that he hired -- that he fired, rather. That is now the basis of critiquing General Clark?
CARLSON: Not at all.
BEGALA: A man who, by the way, is beating George Bush in the polls right now.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Nobody knows word one about General Clark. That's merely, as you know, a reflection of dissatisfaction with the other nine. Those are Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... beating Bush.
CARLSON: I'm happy to debate it, but it's interesting. When his campaign manager calls him a loser, we'll report it.
BEGALA: His campaign manager got fired.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A former intelligence expert from President Bush's State Department told CBS News this week that the Bush administration deceived and misled us by insisting that Saddam Hussein posed an imminent threat to America.
Perhaps that's why half of our soldiers in Iraq today told a "Stars and Stripes" survey that their unit's morale is low. And a third of our soldiers say the war has been of little or no value and that their mission lacks a clear definition. Republican Congressman George Nethercutt further insulted our brave troops by saying -- and I'm quoting him here -- quote -- "Losing a couple of soldiers every day" -- unquote -- is not as big a story as the good news from Iraq. So the truth doesn't matter. The troops don't matter. And dead soldiers don't matter. Welcome to compassionate conservatism.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Actually, that's not what Nethercutt said. As you know, the quote ended -- he wasn't in any way minimizing the tragic deaths of American soldiers. And I can imagine why their troop -- their morale would be low. They're sitting in the middle of the desert being shot at.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: There was no plan to get out, no allies, no help.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Paul, it looks like a terrible, terrible job. I'm so grateful that I don't have to be there. But that doesn't mean that being there is the wrong thing. They're two different things. We have full compassion for our soldiers. And everyone who dies is a tragedy. But that doesn't mean that the mission itself is illegitimate.
BEGALA: That's not what George Nethercutt says. That's not what Donald Rumsfeld says. They complain about the press when we report the heroic men and women who lose their lives for our country. They complain about us. And Bush
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Those men and women should not die unnoticed and unappreciated.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's a different subject.
You'll never hear me defend attacks on the press. They're stupid, but it doesn't mean the mission is wrong.
BEGALA: Well, that's half of a good point, Tucker.
President Bush today joked that both he and the governor-elect of California have been accused of not being able to speak the language. So, in plain English, does Arnold's victory mean that President Bush should adopt Arnold's pro-gay, pro-gun control, pro-abortion rights positions? That's our debate. It's coming up next.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger is the star of the show in California politics. But today, he was cast in the role of the best supporting governor-elect, as President Bush dropped by for a photo-op and, no doubt, a talk about what they can for each other or, mostly, the federal government for California. Can Governor Schwarzenegger arm- wrestle California away from Barbra Streisand and deliver it to the Republicans in to 2004?
That's our hope and our debate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: In the CROSSFIRE, two veterans of Golden State politics, former California Democratic Congressman Tony Coelho and Republican former California Attorney General Dan Lungren. He's served in Congress before and has filed papers to run again next year. So stay tuned.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Guys, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Dan, the day after the election, Arnold set up the meeting that he had with President Bush today. And he announced the agenda for that meeting in that press conference the day after he was elected. Here's Arnold Schwarzenegger, your state's governor-elect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHWARZENEGGER: I got a phone call from President Bush, our current president. And he promised me that he would do everything possible to help California. And so I'm looking forward to working with him and asking him for lot, a lot of favors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: A lot, a lot of favors.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Arnold got elected to make tough choices. And those tough choices is to tax Connecticut to bail him out from California? He's going to get federal money? That's crazy, isn't it? Hasn't he lost his mind?
DAN LUNGREN (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: No.
What he's talked about is the fact that we have to address the problem that exists right now that California is a net exporter of money to the federal government. California gets a return of 76 cents on the dollar.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: New Jersey gets 62 cents, but you don't see Jim McGreevey wining about it. He's fixing his state's fiscal problems. Shouldn't your governor do the same thing?
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: Arnold is going to do that. Arnold has talked about what he's going to do. He's already come out with a very aggressive program on energy, which is one of the problems that contributes to the economic circumstances that befall our state right now. He's talked about repealing some of the legislation that was signed by the governor, who is now going out of office, in terms of an anti-business attitude.
There are a lot of things that can be done. And believe me, if you think he's going to step aside and not face up to those issues, I think you're dead wrong.
CARLSON: Now, Tony, maybe I'm buying into conventional wisdom too much, but I personally have trouble believing Bush is going to win California in 2004.
On the other hand, the numbers are pretty amazing, as you know. Turnout was huge for this recall election. It was about 70 percent. In 2000, for the presidential election, it was 71, so basically full turnout; 62 percent of voters voted for a Republican. I mean, Bush actually could win California, couldn't he?
TONY COELHO (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Now, let's see. Arnold is pro-environment. Arnold is pro-choice. Arnold is pro-gay. Arnold is anti-gun. Where is Bush fit into all of this? I don't think so. I just don't think so.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, I'm not dismissing at all your point. Bush is more conservative than Schwarzenegger.
COELHO: More conservative?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: A tiny bit more.
COELHO: Tiny bit?
CARLSON: He's pro-gay, pro-affirmative action, pro-environment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He looks pretty liberal to me.
However, the point is, even if Bush doesn't win California in '04, these numbers will force Democrats to spend a lot of money trying to defend California in '04. Isn't that
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: You know what, Tucker? In the year 2000, you Republicans said the same thing, that Al Gore would have to spend a lot of money to win California. You know what we did? We spent zero. And we won California big.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I know. But I'm saying, after this, though.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I don't think this changes things much at all, because George Bush is not a fit for California. It just doesn't work.
BEGALA: In fact, let me ask you about that.
COELHO: The problem is that people like Dan, who I happen to -- got elected together and like. He tried to run statewide. And I'll tell you what. You can't run from the conservative side statewide in California.
Arnold Schwarzenegger ran as basically a Democratic campaign as anybody does. There was -- I'd love to have somebody -- him join our party, because he'd fit in very nicely in our party. Everything
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: ... on one of the issues that you've talked about. You've talked about the pro-life issue. Now, Arnold happens to be against partial-birth abortion. Arnold happens to support of idea of parental notification, both of the things rejected by your party, rejected by your governor.
In terms of gay rights, he does not support the idea of gay marriages. He does support the idea of some sort of support for domestic partnership, where they get some legal support. That is hardly the position taken by your party or by your governor.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: That's a very, very big difference.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's precisely the position of all of the candidates running for president. And I'm curious about this.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: You're talking about California. I'm trying to say what the Democratic Party is in California.
BEGALA: I'm curious about where the Republican Party is nationally. Here we have our president going out there today and embracing... LUNGREN: I'm glad to you said our president. I don't hear you say that very often.
BEGALA: I say it every day.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: He is my president, until we can throw his ass out. And we'll do it as soon as we can, Dan.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But our president goes out and embraces a man who disagrees with him on all of these issues. Isn't this the ultimate hypocrisy of putting power over principle?
LUNGREN: Oh, not at all. The Democratic Party ruled for years and years and years with such extremes that it was unbelievable.
You had segregationists in your party, the same time as you had civil rights people in your party. You had broad umbrella. And the criticism of the Republican Party is, we had no broad umbrella at all. The fact of the matter is, on important issues, on fiscal responsibility, on tax policy -- I'm even going to talk to you about the environment. I do not accept the fact that, because one is a conservative, you're anti-environmentalist. What you are is, you approach it different ways. You approach it different ways.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, Exxon and Mobil are very good for the environment. Halliburton, Enron, those guys are very pro-environment.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
COELHO: And getting rid of the EPA is pro-environment.
LUNGREN: Who established the EPA?
CARLSON: Richard Nixon.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: We all know that. We all know that.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: I'm sorry, but I don't think you were trying to suggest that to the audience.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: Oh, I was suggesting to the audience Mr. Bush is not a big advocate of the EPA. (CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: No, no, I was governor of the state -- I was attorney general of the state.
COELHO: Governor?
LUNGREN: I wish I had won.
I was -- look, the folks realized their mistake five years too late. I'm sorry about that.
(LAUGHTER)
LUNGREN: I was attorney general for eight years. And we enforced the environmental laws of the state of California. You can do it in a way that doesn't unnecessarily bash business and drive jobs out of the state. This past governor -- well, he's still governor right now -- has done just the opposite.
They've bashed business. We've driven jobs out of the state. And then you say, I'm so concerned about the worker. Great. Let them have some jobs. It does absolutely no good to drive jobs out of the state and then proclaim that you're concerned that you have a high unemployment rate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Tony, one of the other sort of axioms in life here in Washington is that Clinton, for whatever his many shortcomings, is really a political genius. And I must say, I think he's pretty smart.
But where is the evidence that Clinton's magic works for anybody?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: He traveled this country during the midterm elections, didn't get anybody elected. None of his former staffers got elected to anything. He annual Al Gore took time off from community college. Both came out to California to stump for Gray Davis. And the guy just got stomped. So what exactly is Bill Clinton good at politically? I'm confused. The evidence doesn't match the perception.
(APPLAUSE)
COELHO: Well, I think -- I think that what you miss is that most former presidents, most former anybodies, really don't have that much of an impact politically. They're former. That's why they're former.
But what he does very effectively is, he's one of the best fund- raisers in the party.
CARLSON: Yes.
COELHO: He goes out effectively. And he gives advice to people, which is great. Can he convince a majority of people to vote for somebody? No, nor should he be able to. But can he convince certain people to be involved? Yes, he can.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... on Dan Lungren. One of the things that our president is very good at is giving pious lectures about his own morality, which I happen to think is wonderful -- his morality, that is, not lectures. Why, then, does a man who ran against Clinton's affairs with women, which I thought was irrelevant, now embrace Arnold, who has got the same problems with women? I still think it's irrelevant with Arnold. At least I'm consistent. Isn't Bush being hypocritical?
LUNGREN: No, I don't understand what you're saying at all.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's saying Clinton were horrible and dishonorable, but Arnold's are OK.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: As far as I know, Arnold was never subject of an investigation in which he was required to
BEGALA: Just because there wasn't some right-wing Republican
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
LUNGREN: Wait a second -- who was required to testify under oath and dissembled while testifying under oath. That happens to be a violation law.
Look, perjury is a serious thing. I had to prosecute, of all people, Mark Fuhrman in the midst of that terrible trial in Southern California, not because I wanted to go against an officer, but because, in fact, he had lied under oath. And it was my obligation to do so. That raised it above merely saying something on the street. The same sort of thing happens here. What we had was a president who was accused of not telling the truth under oath.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: By the way, he was found not guilty by a Republican- controlled Senate.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We have to take a break.
(CROSSTALK) LUNGREN: Well, just one thing.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: He's talking about the difference between President Clinton. This president also is one of the few presidents I've ever seen who gratuitously comes in and lays claim to the ability to be able to criticize his successor. Other presidents had better taste than that.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Every president in American history has done that.
CARLSON: And more dignity.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We're going to take quick break. And then Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on the Kobe Bryant case, the other big California controversy.
Then, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask our guests which side of the cultural war Arnold Schwarzenegger is really on.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back.
Time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers come a whole lot faster than governor-elect Schwarzenegger's plans to balance California's budget has come.
Our guests, former Republican Congressman and former California Attorney General Dan Lungren, and former California Democratic Congressman Tony Coelho.
CARLSON: Tony, let's be honest. For Democrats, getting rid of Gray Davis is really like having a splinter come out, isn't it?
COELHO: You're cruel.
CARLSON: No, but I know you feel that way. You can say it. He's gone now.
COELHO: No, I'm glad he's gone, to be honest with you.
CARLSON: Thank you. Gosh, that's nice. (APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Dan does Arnold Schwarzenegger support the Republican National Committee chairman's effort to amend your party's platform with an anti-gay plank?
LUNGREN: I have no idea. I haven't seen him take a position on that at all.
BEGALA: Will he?
LUNGREN: I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Tony, let me just follow up. Tony, now that he's gone, he probably ought to stop appointing judges, don't you think, since he was rejected
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: He's governor legally, and has the right to appoint judges, like every other
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But morally, he should stop.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: But -- like every other governor has, including Mr. Wilson and so forth and so on. They sign bills. They appoint people to positions. They appoint judges. They do the whole thing. The legislature has to confirm them. That's his role. He should perform it until the very end. Every other elected official does. He shouldn't do it any other way.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: The problem is, he's the only governor in history who has ever been recalled.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me press on to the next issue, though, the next governor. Name me one liberal, big-government spending program Arnold Schwarzenegger will eliminate.
LUNGREN: Well, there are so many of them, I can't give you all of them.
BEGALA: One. Just one.
LUNGREN: You don't have to eliminate programs. You can cut some of the programs.
BEGALA: Just one.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: No, what I think they've got to do...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Hundred bucks to your favorite charity if you name one.
LUNGREN: What they have go to do is, they have got to address the question of the constraints that have been put on California's budget by votes of the people and even by the legislature.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: And I think that's one of the first things he has to do. The second thing they have to do is, they have to figure out how they're going to deal with the multi-year deficit program.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Go to the federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Dan Lungren, thank you very much. Tony Coelho, thank you. Appreciate having you both on.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: A quick bit of California trivia now. George W. Bush and Arnold Schwarzenegger held today's meeting at California's historical Mission Inn in Riverside. We know to know which future first couple actually got married at the Mission Inn. Was it the Hoovers? Was it the Nixons? Or was it the Reagans? The answer when we come back.
Also, get the Raid. Howard Dean has a cockroach problem. We'll tell you about it just ahead in "Fireback."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time now to give you the answer to our audience trivia question. We asked, which future first couple got married at the historic Mission Inn, where the odd couple of Arnold and our president met today? Thirteen percent thought the Hoovers; 39 percent thought it was Dick and Pat Nixon. But 48 percent thought it was the Reagans.
Well, I can understand the confusion. The actual answer is the Nixons, Patricia and Richard Nixon. But the Reagans honeymooned there, Nancy and Ronald Reagan, one of the really great love stories of presidential history. And they honeymooned there at the Mission Inn.
CARLSON: Amazing.
BEGALA: But the Nixons were married there.
CARLSON: There's a piece of trivia.
OK, Carl Sutter of Coventry, Pennsylvania, writes: "Does Howard Dean really think that calling members of Congress cockroaches is a good strategy? Somehow, I feel this might not get things off on the right foot if, God forbid, he ever makes it into the White House."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, Carl, let me tell you something. Unfortunately, sparky little Howard Dean is never going to be the nominee. And it's too bad.
BEGALA: Well, there's a lot good to be said for cockroaches. I'm from Texas. We like them there. We raise them, actually, and breed them competitively.
Alex O'Neal in Phoenix, Arizona, writes: "Too bad Clemens or Martinez can't pitch for those lovable losers, the Democratic candidates. They'd have a chance to score, maybe even win."
He's, of course, talking about the big game seven of the American League Championship, Roger "The Rocket" Clemens going against Pedro Martinez.
CARLSON: Yes. I think the Red Sox are going to win.
Joyce Courtney of Grand Rapids, writes: "Tucker, gastric bypass is a method to safely reduce weight and reduce medical problems. Wearing a wig is a silly way to deny that you are hair-impaired."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now, you know what I think this is, Paul? Last year, I made a joking reference to my wig, but I don't actually wear a wig.
BEGALA: It's really, guys. It's real.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It was a joke, Joyce. No wigs on this set. James Carville wears one occasionally, but not me. Thanks for caring.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: How's my
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who wears one occasionally?
CARLSON: James, you know, he puts on a wig once in while.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, wigless, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow, Friday, for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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Aired October 16, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the president and the best supporting actor.
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR-ELECT: There is no greater ally that this Golden State has in Washington than our president.
ANNOUNCER: Does Arnold Schwarzenegger's victory this year make it easier for President Bush to be California's leading man next year?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Today, we enjoyed yet another aftershock from California's political earthquake, as President Bush paid a visit to Republican governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger. Amazing. Our debate, will California shake into the Bush column in 2004?
But first, the best daily earthquake on television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, Bill Clinton has done a lot of brazen things over the years. But nothing quite comes close to a speech he gave yesterday in which he claimed that, at the end of his term, he warned President Bush that Osama bin Laden was the single greatest threat to national security. Bush, he implied, ignored him, hence 9/11.
Think about this for a minute. After doing almost nothing to respond to al Qaeda's attacks on the World Trade Center in 1993, the Saudi national guard training center in Riyadh in 1995, the Khobar Towers in 1996, the American embassies in Africa in the 1998, and the Cole attack in 2000, not to mention his lack of credible response to bin Laden's declarations of war against the U.S. in 1996 and yet again in 1998, Clinton is now claiming that al Qaeda was actually his No. 1 security priority.
Well, this would be shocking, if it weren't so perfectly Clinton. And it is perfectly Clinton.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, Tucker, I worked in that administration. I happen to know that it was the top priority there. Now, don't just take my word for it. Don Carrick (ph), a lieutenant general, a three-star general who served both Clinton and President Bush Jr., said this: "Clinton's advisers met nearly weekly on how to stop bin Laden. I did not detect that kind of focus from the Bush administration."
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: This is why they're stonewalling the 9/11 Commission. This is why they won't release the briefing on August 6 of '01, when Mr. Bush was warned that bin Laden was trying to hijack aircraft.
CARLSON: OK, you're trying to filibuster -- you're trying to filibuster me. I understand that.
BEGALA: I'm just trying to answer all the false things you said about my former boss.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: No, you're not.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: The fact -- the fact is that he didn't respond adequately. And for him to attack a sitting president for, like, the 50th time since Bush was elected is outrageous. Be quiet and go away.
BEGALA: For this president to have ignored the threat from bin Laden, which was explained to him
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... was an outrage.
CARLSON: Totally Orwellian, Paul. No believes what you say.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, "The New York Times" reports today that a cross- section of experienced criminal prosecutors, including political supporters of Attorney General John Ashcroft, are criticizing Mr. Ashcroft for maintaining control of the investigation of the Bush White House's alleged leak of the name of the CIA agent.
Ashcroft, of course, did nothing for 10 weeks after the agent's name was leaked to the press and then, inexplicably, waited for almost a day after the news investigation was reported before ordering White House aides to secure their records. Now, critics note that this just might have given a criminal ample time to cover his tracks.
Let's face it. Asking John Ashcroft to investigate the Bush White House is like asking Rush Limbaugh to investigate a drugstore chain.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, that, in fact, John Ashcroft is not investigating the Bush White House.
And, by the way, give Rush Limbaugh a pass. The guy's a dope addict. He's in rehab. Leave him alone.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But he's not investigating it. The FBI is. And if you're implying that the FBI -- which may be incompetent, but is also corrupt, that's an allegation of a crime and a very serious to say.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: John Ashcroft has a fundamental conflict of interest. He should turn this over to an independent investigator, because it's not credible. Bush has already told him, we're never going to find the leakers. What do you think that means, when the president of the United States already announces that we're not going to find
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK, Paul, the president of the United States and the attorney general don't tell the FBI what to do at that level.
BEGALA: They work for Ashcroft. So appoint an independent counsel, then.
CARLSON: I don't think the FBI is that corrupt, to be totally honest.
Well, retired General Wesley Clark has been a registered Democrat for about 20 minutes and a presidential candidate for even less time.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And, already, his struggling campaign is coming under fire for being a corrupt, unaccountable creation of the Washington Beltway. And that's his friends talking.
Clark's former campaign manager, Donnie Fowler -- yes, Clark already has a former campaign manager -- has written a letter to his old boss, complaining that the general has begun to -- quote -- "adopt some bad habits of past presidential efforts," meaning, of course, Al Gore.
According to a story in today's "Roll Call," Fowler accuses Clark of staffing his campaign with shifty Beltway lobbyists, who refuse to quit their day jobs for fear Clark will lose. And that's a realistic fear. Fowler sums up -- quote -- "A Washington approach to policy and politics severely handicaps your ability to run a campaign that connects to voters in the states." Well, yes, it does, and that's good news for the rest of us.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So this is now what you're reduced to?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me make my point.
General Clark has given a series of policy statements. Why not read them, argue them, dispute them, instead of some disgruntled former staffer that he hired -- that he fired, rather. That is now the basis of critiquing General Clark?
CARLSON: Not at all.
BEGALA: A man who, by the way, is beating George Bush in the polls right now.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Nobody knows word one about General Clark. That's merely, as you know, a reflection of dissatisfaction with the other nine. Those are Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... beating Bush.
CARLSON: I'm happy to debate it, but it's interesting. When his campaign manager calls him a loser, we'll report it.
BEGALA: His campaign manager got fired.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A former intelligence expert from President Bush's State Department told CBS News this week that the Bush administration deceived and misled us by insisting that Saddam Hussein posed an imminent threat to America.
Perhaps that's why half of our soldiers in Iraq today told a "Stars and Stripes" survey that their unit's morale is low. And a third of our soldiers say the war has been of little or no value and that their mission lacks a clear definition. Republican Congressman George Nethercutt further insulted our brave troops by saying -- and I'm quoting him here -- quote -- "Losing a couple of soldiers every day" -- unquote -- is not as big a story as the good news from Iraq. So the truth doesn't matter. The troops don't matter. And dead soldiers don't matter. Welcome to compassionate conservatism.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Actually, that's not what Nethercutt said. As you know, the quote ended -- he wasn't in any way minimizing the tragic deaths of American soldiers. And I can imagine why their troop -- their morale would be low. They're sitting in the middle of the desert being shot at.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: There was no plan to get out, no allies, no help.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Paul, it looks like a terrible, terrible job. I'm so grateful that I don't have to be there. But that doesn't mean that being there is the wrong thing. They're two different things. We have full compassion for our soldiers. And everyone who dies is a tragedy. But that doesn't mean that the mission itself is illegitimate.
BEGALA: That's not what George Nethercutt says. That's not what Donald Rumsfeld says. They complain about the press when we report the heroic men and women who lose their lives for our country. They complain about us. And Bush
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Those men and women should not die unnoticed and unappreciated.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's a different subject.
You'll never hear me defend attacks on the press. They're stupid, but it doesn't mean the mission is wrong.
BEGALA: Well, that's half of a good point, Tucker.
President Bush today joked that both he and the governor-elect of California have been accused of not being able to speak the language. So, in plain English, does Arnold's victory mean that President Bush should adopt Arnold's pro-gay, pro-gun control, pro-abortion rights positions? That's our debate. It's coming up next.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger is the star of the show in California politics. But today, he was cast in the role of the best supporting governor-elect, as President Bush dropped by for a photo-op and, no doubt, a talk about what they can for each other or, mostly, the federal government for California. Can Governor Schwarzenegger arm- wrestle California away from Barbra Streisand and deliver it to the Republicans in to 2004?
That's our hope and our debate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: In the CROSSFIRE, two veterans of Golden State politics, former California Democratic Congressman Tony Coelho and Republican former California Attorney General Dan Lungren. He's served in Congress before and has filed papers to run again next year. So stay tuned.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Guys, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Dan, the day after the election, Arnold set up the meeting that he had with President Bush today. And he announced the agenda for that meeting in that press conference the day after he was elected. Here's Arnold Schwarzenegger, your state's governor-elect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHWARZENEGGER: I got a phone call from President Bush, our current president. And he promised me that he would do everything possible to help California. And so I'm looking forward to working with him and asking him for lot, a lot of favors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: A lot, a lot of favors.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Arnold got elected to make tough choices. And those tough choices is to tax Connecticut to bail him out from California? He's going to get federal money? That's crazy, isn't it? Hasn't he lost his mind?
DAN LUNGREN (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: No.
What he's talked about is the fact that we have to address the problem that exists right now that California is a net exporter of money to the federal government. California gets a return of 76 cents on the dollar.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: New Jersey gets 62 cents, but you don't see Jim McGreevey wining about it. He's fixing his state's fiscal problems. Shouldn't your governor do the same thing?
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: Arnold is going to do that. Arnold has talked about what he's going to do. He's already come out with a very aggressive program on energy, which is one of the problems that contributes to the economic circumstances that befall our state right now. He's talked about repealing some of the legislation that was signed by the governor, who is now going out of office, in terms of an anti-business attitude.
There are a lot of things that can be done. And believe me, if you think he's going to step aside and not face up to those issues, I think you're dead wrong.
CARLSON: Now, Tony, maybe I'm buying into conventional wisdom too much, but I personally have trouble believing Bush is going to win California in 2004.
On the other hand, the numbers are pretty amazing, as you know. Turnout was huge for this recall election. It was about 70 percent. In 2000, for the presidential election, it was 71, so basically full turnout; 62 percent of voters voted for a Republican. I mean, Bush actually could win California, couldn't he?
TONY COELHO (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Now, let's see. Arnold is pro-environment. Arnold is pro-choice. Arnold is pro-gay. Arnold is anti-gun. Where is Bush fit into all of this? I don't think so. I just don't think so.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, I'm not dismissing at all your point. Bush is more conservative than Schwarzenegger.
COELHO: More conservative?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: A tiny bit more.
COELHO: Tiny bit?
CARLSON: He's pro-gay, pro-affirmative action, pro-environment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He looks pretty liberal to me.
However, the point is, even if Bush doesn't win California in '04, these numbers will force Democrats to spend a lot of money trying to defend California in '04. Isn't that
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: You know what, Tucker? In the year 2000, you Republicans said the same thing, that Al Gore would have to spend a lot of money to win California. You know what we did? We spent zero. And we won California big.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I know. But I'm saying, after this, though.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: I don't think this changes things much at all, because George Bush is not a fit for California. It just doesn't work.
BEGALA: In fact, let me ask you about that.
COELHO: The problem is that people like Dan, who I happen to -- got elected together and like. He tried to run statewide. And I'll tell you what. You can't run from the conservative side statewide in California.
Arnold Schwarzenegger ran as basically a Democratic campaign as anybody does. There was -- I'd love to have somebody -- him join our party, because he'd fit in very nicely in our party. Everything
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: ... on one of the issues that you've talked about. You've talked about the pro-life issue. Now, Arnold happens to be against partial-birth abortion. Arnold happens to support of idea of parental notification, both of the things rejected by your party, rejected by your governor.
In terms of gay rights, he does not support the idea of gay marriages. He does support the idea of some sort of support for domestic partnership, where they get some legal support. That is hardly the position taken by your party or by your governor.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: That's a very, very big difference.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's precisely the position of all of the candidates running for president. And I'm curious about this.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: You're talking about California. I'm trying to say what the Democratic Party is in California.
BEGALA: I'm curious about where the Republican Party is nationally. Here we have our president going out there today and embracing... LUNGREN: I'm glad to you said our president. I don't hear you say that very often.
BEGALA: I say it every day.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: He is my president, until we can throw his ass out. And we'll do it as soon as we can, Dan.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But our president goes out and embraces a man who disagrees with him on all of these issues. Isn't this the ultimate hypocrisy of putting power over principle?
LUNGREN: Oh, not at all. The Democratic Party ruled for years and years and years with such extremes that it was unbelievable.
You had segregationists in your party, the same time as you had civil rights people in your party. You had broad umbrella. And the criticism of the Republican Party is, we had no broad umbrella at all. The fact of the matter is, on important issues, on fiscal responsibility, on tax policy -- I'm even going to talk to you about the environment. I do not accept the fact that, because one is a conservative, you're anti-environmentalist. What you are is, you approach it different ways. You approach it different ways.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, Exxon and Mobil are very good for the environment. Halliburton, Enron, those guys are very pro-environment.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
COELHO: And getting rid of the EPA is pro-environment.
LUNGREN: Who established the EPA?
CARLSON: Richard Nixon.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: We all know that. We all know that.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: I'm sorry, but I don't think you were trying to suggest that to the audience.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: Oh, I was suggesting to the audience Mr. Bush is not a big advocate of the EPA. (CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: No, no, I was governor of the state -- I was attorney general of the state.
COELHO: Governor?
LUNGREN: I wish I had won.
I was -- look, the folks realized their mistake five years too late. I'm sorry about that.
(LAUGHTER)
LUNGREN: I was attorney general for eight years. And we enforced the environmental laws of the state of California. You can do it in a way that doesn't unnecessarily bash business and drive jobs out of the state. This past governor -- well, he's still governor right now -- has done just the opposite.
They've bashed business. We've driven jobs out of the state. And then you say, I'm so concerned about the worker. Great. Let them have some jobs. It does absolutely no good to drive jobs out of the state and then proclaim that you're concerned that you have a high unemployment rate.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Tony, one of the other sort of axioms in life here in Washington is that Clinton, for whatever his many shortcomings, is really a political genius. And I must say, I think he's pretty smart.
But where is the evidence that Clinton's magic works for anybody?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: He traveled this country during the midterm elections, didn't get anybody elected. None of his former staffers got elected to anything. He annual Al Gore took time off from community college. Both came out to California to stump for Gray Davis. And the guy just got stomped. So what exactly is Bill Clinton good at politically? I'm confused. The evidence doesn't match the perception.
(APPLAUSE)
COELHO: Well, I think -- I think that what you miss is that most former presidents, most former anybodies, really don't have that much of an impact politically. They're former. That's why they're former.
But what he does very effectively is, he's one of the best fund- raisers in the party.
CARLSON: Yes.
COELHO: He goes out effectively. And he gives advice to people, which is great. Can he convince a majority of people to vote for somebody? No, nor should he be able to. But can he convince certain people to be involved? Yes, he can.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... on Dan Lungren. One of the things that our president is very good at is giving pious lectures about his own morality, which I happen to think is wonderful -- his morality, that is, not lectures. Why, then, does a man who ran against Clinton's affairs with women, which I thought was irrelevant, now embrace Arnold, who has got the same problems with women? I still think it's irrelevant with Arnold. At least I'm consistent. Isn't Bush being hypocritical?
LUNGREN: No, I don't understand what you're saying at all.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's saying Clinton were horrible and dishonorable, but Arnold's are OK.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: As far as I know, Arnold was never subject of an investigation in which he was required to
BEGALA: Just because there wasn't some right-wing Republican
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
LUNGREN: Wait a second -- who was required to testify under oath and dissembled while testifying under oath. That happens to be a violation law.
Look, perjury is a serious thing. I had to prosecute, of all people, Mark Fuhrman in the midst of that terrible trial in Southern California, not because I wanted to go against an officer, but because, in fact, he had lied under oath. And it was my obligation to do so. That raised it above merely saying something on the street. The same sort of thing happens here. What we had was a president who was accused of not telling the truth under oath.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: By the way, he was found not guilty by a Republican- controlled Senate.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We have to take a break.
(CROSSTALK) LUNGREN: Well, just one thing.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: He's talking about the difference between President Clinton. This president also is one of the few presidents I've ever seen who gratuitously comes in and lays claim to the ability to be able to criticize his successor. Other presidents had better taste than that.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Every president in American history has done that.
CARLSON: And more dignity.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We're going to take quick break. And then Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on the Kobe Bryant case, the other big California controversy.
Then, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask our guests which side of the cultural war Arnold Schwarzenegger is really on.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back.
Time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers come a whole lot faster than governor-elect Schwarzenegger's plans to balance California's budget has come.
Our guests, former Republican Congressman and former California Attorney General Dan Lungren, and former California Democratic Congressman Tony Coelho.
CARLSON: Tony, let's be honest. For Democrats, getting rid of Gray Davis is really like having a splinter come out, isn't it?
COELHO: You're cruel.
CARLSON: No, but I know you feel that way. You can say it. He's gone now.
COELHO: No, I'm glad he's gone, to be honest with you.
CARLSON: Thank you. Gosh, that's nice. (APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Dan does Arnold Schwarzenegger support the Republican National Committee chairman's effort to amend your party's platform with an anti-gay plank?
LUNGREN: I have no idea. I haven't seen him take a position on that at all.
BEGALA: Will he?
LUNGREN: I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Tony, let me just follow up. Tony, now that he's gone, he probably ought to stop appointing judges, don't you think, since he was rejected
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: He's governor legally, and has the right to appoint judges, like every other
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But morally, he should stop.
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: But -- like every other governor has, including Mr. Wilson and so forth and so on. They sign bills. They appoint people to positions. They appoint judges. They do the whole thing. The legislature has to confirm them. That's his role. He should perform it until the very end. Every other elected official does. He shouldn't do it any other way.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: The problem is, he's the only governor in history who has ever been recalled.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me press on to the next issue, though, the next governor. Name me one liberal, big-government spending program Arnold Schwarzenegger will eliminate.
LUNGREN: Well, there are so many of them, I can't give you all of them.
BEGALA: One. Just one.
LUNGREN: You don't have to eliminate programs. You can cut some of the programs.
BEGALA: Just one.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: No, what I think they've got to do...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Hundred bucks to your favorite charity if you name one.
LUNGREN: What they have go to do is, they have got to address the question of the constraints that have been put on California's budget by votes of the people and even by the legislature.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: And I think that's one of the first things he has to do. The second thing they have to do is, they have to figure out how they're going to deal with the multi-year deficit program.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Go to the federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Dan Lungren, thank you very much. Tony Coelho, thank you. Appreciate having you both on.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: A quick bit of California trivia now. George W. Bush and Arnold Schwarzenegger held today's meeting at California's historical Mission Inn in Riverside. We know to know which future first couple actually got married at the Mission Inn. Was it the Hoovers? Was it the Nixons? Or was it the Reagans? The answer when we come back.
Also, get the Raid. Howard Dean has a cockroach problem. We'll tell you about it just ahead in "Fireback."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Time now to give you the answer to our audience trivia question. We asked, which future first couple got married at the historic Mission Inn, where the odd couple of Arnold and our president met today? Thirteen percent thought the Hoovers; 39 percent thought it was Dick and Pat Nixon. But 48 percent thought it was the Reagans.
Well, I can understand the confusion. The actual answer is the Nixons, Patricia and Richard Nixon. But the Reagans honeymooned there, Nancy and Ronald Reagan, one of the really great love stories of presidential history. And they honeymooned there at the Mission Inn.
CARLSON: Amazing.
BEGALA: But the Nixons were married there.
CARLSON: There's a piece of trivia.
OK, Carl Sutter of Coventry, Pennsylvania, writes: "Does Howard Dean really think that calling members of Congress cockroaches is a good strategy? Somehow, I feel this might not get things off on the right foot if, God forbid, he ever makes it into the White House."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, Carl, let me tell you something. Unfortunately, sparky little Howard Dean is never going to be the nominee. And it's too bad.
BEGALA: Well, there's a lot good to be said for cockroaches. I'm from Texas. We like them there. We raise them, actually, and breed them competitively.
Alex O'Neal in Phoenix, Arizona, writes: "Too bad Clemens or Martinez can't pitch for those lovable losers, the Democratic candidates. They'd have a chance to score, maybe even win."
He's, of course, talking about the big game seven of the American League Championship, Roger "The Rocket" Clemens going against Pedro Martinez.
CARLSON: Yes. I think the Red Sox are going to win.
Joyce Courtney of Grand Rapids, writes: "Tucker, gastric bypass is a method to safely reduce weight and reduce medical problems. Wearing a wig is a silly way to deny that you are hair-impaired."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now, you know what I think this is, Paul? Last year, I made a joking reference to my wig, but I don't actually wear a wig.
BEGALA: It's really, guys. It's real.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It was a joke, Joyce. No wigs on this set. James Carville wears one occasionally, but not me. Thanks for caring.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: How's my
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who wears one occasionally?
CARLSON: James, you know, he puts on a wig once in while.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, wigless, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow, Friday, for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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